Thunderdome: Glee fandoms

[fakeempress]

I forgot to mention in the exchange about the writer stans, that they've been out in force defending the two most WTF storylines, Blainofsky and trans Beiste. For them, it's never enough to recognise pragmatic and cynical reasons such as: Ryan likes the shock and sensational triangles, Beiste doesn't have a story unless they foist on her the story that seemingly was developing for Unique,Dot is the better actor and may generate more final buzz. For instance, their rationalisation for Dave being just a shock roadblock in this trainwreck, is that there is no need to build up on the backstory with Kurt (and Blaine) for his POV because the viewers are familiar with the past events, this "omission" will be a great use of subtext by the writers because they rely on the audience being smart enough to fill in the blanks; and how irl you don't recount your backstory every time you see the people involved. For Beiste, it was how the story the writers wanted to do (non-typical femininity) was done and done with, so now they can move on to a new story, and how again in real life people arrive at awareness later in life.

 

The writer stans are generally  big on the "in real life" or "I, my friend, etc. went through the same" writer defense, regardless of the fact that there isn't a one to one relationship between the particulars of your friend's life and the fictional creation whose story is being manipulated by the writers for whatever random purpose they want.

Edited January 4, 2015 by fakeempress

[truthaboutluv]

My favourite competition performance is Sectionals in Season 3, particularly ABC.

 

 

It was also probably the most evenly split competition performance - Tina had a big presence, so did Quinn and all the guys got significant parts in the songs. I guess all it took for Will to give everyone something meaningful to do in a competition performance was half the girls in New Direction defecting to form their own group and Rachel being put on suspension and unable to perform. 

 

eta: I've never paid attention to writer stans for Glee because I just cannot on any level reconcile anyone not seeing RIB as complete failures when it comes to what this show has become. That said, I have had experience in other fandoms with writer stans and yes they can be quite frustrating at times. The most ridiculous thing to me are the "well the writer said it's so and so it must be so..." comments. 

 

And my feeling on that is always a big giant no. Art is something that can be very subjective in general so everyone is not always going to interpret things the same way. That being said, I also think when a significant part of a show's audience feels or sees something ENTIRELY different than what a writer/show creator says they were going for or created, then something is clearly wrong and you have to consider it being a failure on the writer's part. 

 

This is something I was just discussing in another thread, for the Showtime show The Affair. Interesting show, brilliantly acted, but (and I'll try not to spoil anything for anyone here who may be watching now or plan to) there were many instances throughout the season of the creator/writer saying one thing in her interviews after an episode had aired and a lot of the comments on the board being "I don't buy that, that's not how I saw that at all..." And there were definitely a few comments in the vein of "if she said that's what they're feeling then that's what the characters are feeling..." And for me it's like no, when a writer has to explain and defend their intent, then somewhere along the way, things got fucked up in the execution.

Edited January 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Myrna123]

It was also probably the most evenly split competition performance - Tina had a big presence, so did Quinn and all the guys got significant parts in the songs. I guess all it took for Will to give everyone something meaningful to do in a competition performance was half the girls in New Direction defecting to form their own group and Rachel being put on suspension and unable to perform. 

 

eta: I've never paid attention to writer stans for Glee because I just cannot on any level reconcile anyone not seeing RIB as complete failures when it comes to what this show has become. That said, I have had experience in other fandoms with writer stans and yes they can be quite frustrating at times. The most ridiculous thing to me are the "well the writer said it's so and so it must be so..." comments. 

 

And my feeling on that is always a big giant no. Art is something that can be very subjective in general so everyone is not always going to interpret things the same way. That being said, I also think when a significant part of a show's audience feels or sees something ENTIRELY different than what a writer/show creator says they were going for or created, then something is clearly wrong and you have to consider it being a failure on the writer's part. 

 

This is something I was just discussing in another thread, for the Showtime show The Affair. Interesting show, brilliantly acted, but (and I'll try not to spoil anything for anyone here who may be watching now or plan to) there were many instances throughout the season of the creator/writer saying one thing in her interviews after an episode had aired and a lot of the comments on the board being "I don't buy that, that's not how I saw that at all..." And there were definitely a few comments in the vein of "if she said that's what they're feeling then that's what the characters are feeling..." And for me it's like no, when a writer has to explain and defend their intent, then somewhere along the way, things got fucked up in the execution.

I disagree. If the writer says a character is thinking, feeling or motivated in a certain way then that is the canonical truth. Whether or not that canonical truth is competently portrayed is another story. I think the creator of any kind of art should be able to say 'this is the truth of what I created,' particularly in a medium like tv where character motivation and intent and inner feelings are very germaine to the finished product the artist is trying to create. Consumers of the art may or may not see the intended motivation or inner feeling, but failing to successfully portray something doesn't mean the artist really wasn't trying to portray what they said they were trying to portray.

[truthaboutluv]

I think I may have been unclear. I was not talking about whether or not something is canonically true. Yes, if a writer says "x character loves y character" then "canonically" it is true but I, as a viewer can say, that is not what I got out of that scene at all and by that token, something clearly did not come across as it was supposed to. It was like the Finn/Rachel maybe breakup/did not breakup at the end of Season 3.

Apparently a massive part of the fandom believed they broke up and only realized they hadn't when RIB stated in an interview that they hadn't. So clearly something in the writing, the acting, etc. was not delivered as it should have been if that many people were confused. Same with the Kurt and Finn storyline. Finn was supposed to be the one in the wrong, the insensitive one and Kurt just this innocent gay boy with a crush yet a good chunk of the viewers thought Kurt had been creepy as fuck towards Finn at points. And when that was pointed out to RIB at some television event, you could tell they really had no clue the storyline came across that way to many people.

Another example I always use is the Harry Potter books. JK Rowling says Ginny was Harry's soulmate, the books ended on them married with kids and so canonically they were soulmates but me, as a reader, reading the entire series, I didn't buy it. I felt the whole thing came across forced and rushed and in my opinion, that's a failure on the writer's part. Just to be clear, I'm not saying every single time someone disagrees with what happens in canon it means the writing messed up because sometimes people just interpret things differently based on personal bias, personal background, history, etc.

I have not liked or disagreed with things that happen in canon, but was still able to see what the writer was going for. But when I get none of what a writer says I was supposed to feel or see, then that's a problem. Like if a writer is telling me I'm supposed to be watching two good people just making mistakes and myself and a good chunk of the audience, including entertainment reviewers of the show, loathes those "good people" then yeah the writing fucked up.

Edited January 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[caracas1914]

For instance, their rationalisation for Dave being just a shock roadblock in this trainwreck, is that there is no need to build up on the backstory with Kurt (and Blaine) for his POV because the viewers are familiar with the past events, this "omission" will be a great use of subtext by the writers because they rely on the audience being smart enough to fill in the blanks; and how irl you don't recount your backstory every time you see the people involved.

What happens with showrunners/writer Stans is they start with the premise that what these writers do is brilliant and makes internal sense.

So any criticism of the writers is wrong, thus it becomes that those who don't see the plausibility of the Blainofsky romance are judgmental, can't see past prior sins and omissions, want to keep Karofsy in a box. When the writers themselves invoke the memory or image of Karofsky as a bully doesn't matter, the audience show know better and get past it.

It becomes transference that the audience is intolerant and not receptive to the writers' choices. So the pretense becomes the Stans are "defending" the right of Karofsky in a storyline.

Which hardly explains someone like me who thinks Max Adler is a gifted actor, thought revisiting Karofsky might be interesting and have no triggers with him , and still can see how WTF pulled out of their asses this Karofsky/Blaine/Kurt SL is. Karofsky used as a roadblock exercise is that, a prop roadblock so why justify some internal logic for it?

The problem is obvious; not only the audience but also all three characters have to have a form of amnesia to justify this scenario.

Karofsky has to be completely oblivious to his past history, along with both Blaine and Kurt. It has nothing to do with audience lack of empathy or open mindedness, and everything with writing characters whose past motivations, context and history is wiped out simply because fabricated drama trumps characterization. For any fictional character that is the kiss of death.

When Stans over intellectualize lack of common sense in storytelling, maybe it's time to take a break.

Edited January 4, 2015 by caracas1914

[ComfySweater]

Karofsky has to be completely oblivious to his past history, along with both Blaine and Kurt. It has nothing to do with audience lack of empathy or open mindedness, and everything with writing characters whose past motivations, context and history is wiped out simply because fabricated drama trumps characterization.   For any fictional character that is the kiss of death.

That's a problem with Ryan Murphy's shows in general. He so desperately wants to keep people talking and be edgy that he goes bigger every season without much thought as to if it makes sense for the characters or even the premise of the show. The more crazy and irrational it gets, the more people talk about it! Mission accomplished!

 

That the ratings head to the basement and viewers can't make sense of the show without some cognitive dissonance being involved doesn't seem to matter to him. He just barrels on talking about his genius, mocking fans who don't agree, engaging in increasingly bad meta, and being his own biggest writer stan. It's no surprise he attracts a significant number of fans of a similar mindset.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ComfySweater

[KatWay]

 

I disagree. If the writer says a character is thinking, feeling or motivated in a certain way then that is the canonical truth. Whether or not that canonical truth is competently portrayed is another story. I think the creator of any kind of art should be able to say 'this is the truth of what I created,' particularly in a medium like tv where character motivation and intent and inner feelings are very germaine to the finished product the artist is trying to create. Consumers of the art may or may not see the intended motivation or inner feeling, but failing to successfully portray something doesn't mean the artist really wasn't trying to portray what they said they were trying to portray.

 

Yeah, whatever the writer says is technically canon, but not every viewer is going to follow interviews and additional explanations for extra insight. Some (lots of) people just watch the show. So the show, IMO, must be able to stand on its own. When I have no clue what the writers are going for in the show and have to look at an interview to make sense of the situation (or I get one impression and then find out the writers had something completely different in mind) then the writers aren't doing a good job.

[caracas1914]

The Klaine/writers stans are gushing the brilliance and "sense" of the Blaine/Karofsky pairing.   Well fine, if you ship them , who am I to judge.  But what's hilarious is saying it is good device/tool to get Klaine back together.  The Karofsky factor will make Klaine stronger.   It's like a gay Twilight fandom.

 

Literally anything Ryan and Brad write  is golden to them.

Edited January 12, 2015 by caracas1914

[ComfySweater]

Low bar is low. 

[tab19]

The Klaine/writers stans are gushing the brilliance and "sense" of the Blaine/Karofsky pairing.   Well fine, if you ship them , who am I to judge.  But what's hilarious is saying it is good device/tool to get Klaine back together.  The Karofsky factor will make Klaine stronger.   It's like a gay Twilight fandom.

I'm sure I'll be sorry for asking this, but:  How are they even doing that?  Are they ignoring the Karofsky of it, and just saying that time spent in another relationship would be good for them ultimately? (which is valid, if it weren't for it being Karofsky)  Or is there something about Blaine's SO being Karofsky that is actually good?

[ComfySweater]

The bit of it I saw before I bailed out because I didn't want to throw up on my shoes was some sort of Blaine is dating Karofsky because they're both obsessed with Kurt and somehow this is more endgame than extra awful. 

[jaytee1812]

That honestly sounds like the setup for some Fatal Attraction style story and not a romantic future.

[camussie]

I honestly can't imagine anybody being a writer stan for this show.  Couple shippers or character stans I get because the actor appeals to them or the actors' chemistry appeals to them but writer stans I totally don't unless they simply stopped watching after season 1 because even though season 1 wasn't perfectly written I still say it was written pretty well.  

 

I mean I am a huge Finn stan and shipped Finn/rachel together but the writing for them sucked so much of the time.  Why not just admit that?  

[ComfySweater]

That honestly sounds like the setup for some Fatal Attraction style story and not a romantic future.

Isn't that nearly every relationship on Glee? 

[caracas1914]

Writers Stans many of whom write themselves, including a lot of fanfiction, apparently feel they have the expertise to decipher Glee writers.

I guess it's a special gift.

[jaytee1812]

Writers Stans many of whom write themselves, including a lot of fanfiction, apparently feel they have the expertise to decipher Glee writers.

I guess it's a special gift.

Sounds a bit Emperors New Clothes to me.

[fakeempress]

I honestly can't imagine anybody being a writer stan for this show.  Couple shippers or character stans I get because the actor appeals to them or the actors' chemistry appeals to them but writer stans I totally don't unless they simply stopped watching after season 1 because even though season 1 wasn't perfectly written I still say it was written pretty well.  

 

I mean I am a huge Finn stan and shipped Finn/rachel together but the writing for them sucked so much of the time.  Why not just admit that?  

I think some of them use the show as an excuse to write endless meta, and in the process have become so used to explaining away the crap that they can't force themselves to admit the crap is real. Others just pride themselves for seeing the deep meaning that the common folk can't. Some have this "positivity" mantra so they like everything. Things like that. 

 

They were shocked when the Karofsky spoilers first came out, really shocked and some were about to flounce, but they talked themselves off the ledge, and there they are now, extolling the brilliance.

 

The Klaine/writers stans are gushing the brilliance and "sense" of the Blaine/Karofsky pairing.   Well fine, if you ship them , who am I to judge.  But what's hilarious is saying it is good device/tool to get Klaine back together.  The Karofsky factor will make Klaine stronger.   It's like a gay Twilight fandom.

I saw one of the worst cases of writer stan lecture some poor soul who asked her on tumblr if Sebastian wouldn't have worked as Blaine's bf as well as Karofsky, something like that. So she made a whole list of reasons why Karofsky is exactly the one needed on the show, while Sebastian isn't. I'm sure if Grant Gustin was available and they had brought him back instead of Max, she would've sung Sebastian's praises. That's how the writer stans roll. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by fakeempress

[ComfySweater]

I'm sure if Grant Gustin was available and they had brought him back instead of Max, she would've sung Sebastian's praises. That's how the writer stans roll. 

Well, it sure as heck would have been a lot hotter and less awkward. I could at least see how that works on a base level. The Karofsky thing confuses me. You have to really, really hate your ex to hit that for a few months.  

[fakeempress]

The latest episode produced some "brilliant" writer stan responses. I can't help share this one (a typical case) which is convinced the meta in the episode was a character-building device: "That is not to discount the sort of condescending attitude Blaine's put on here. Or the snark at Rachel. He has FEELINGS and he doesn’t know how to have feelings without externalizing them. ..Characters. This is how you do that."

I snorted at the last sentence.

[jaytee1812]

I've read that several times over and it still makes no sense.

[ComfySweater]

I have no idea what I just read. I started to say a few things about what meta actually is versus that, but I realized it was either obvious or there was no point. I'll sit in my corner over here and try to pretend this never happened. 

[Myrna123]

I'll sit in my corner over here and try to pretend this never happened. 

Those of us who stick around to the bitter, embarrassing, horrifying end should probably have this emblazoned on a T-shirt.  And they'll know we were Glee watchers by our shame, by our shame...

Edited January 26, 2015 by Myrna123

[fakeempress]

I've read that several times over and it still makes no sense.

That's what I said to myself. What I figured it is, is explaining the meta the characters were spouting, like Rachel and Blaine about Rachel getting bored with things, as omg! that's how you write characters! At that point, I lost it.

I just wanted to give an example for those here who've never came across writer stan musings. Oh, and if you didn't know, Sam having kissed all 6 original GC girls and dated 4 of them (so far) is just him being quick to fall in love, the poor dear can't help himself and his big heart. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by fakeempress

[ComfySweater]

I have a vague recollection of a Mad About You episode where the sister is having party time because she's a dancer in Cats and they broke the record again as they do every time the show goes on. Kind of sad a sitcom understood Broadway better than anybody here. 

[SevenStars]

CASUAL VIEWIN

  Let's face it, RIB really suck at writing relationships.  It makes me wonder what their romantic relationships are like in real life.
      

      I ventured into the GF spoiler thread and it is a scary place!  The fact that so many on the board think there is nothing dysfunctional about Klaine and that their suddenly getting married is "so romantic" makes me want to weep.  That is what really distresses me about RIB's writing of relationships.  If RIB are actually poking fun at the stupidity of the Klaine relationship, their main audience is totally missing the irony and instead seeing this as the way relationships should work.

The only way Klaine could possibly (and I'm still doubtful) work is if there was a time jump and we saw them successfully working out their issues prior to marriage.  So far RIB have either ignored the problems, dismissed the problems or swept them under the carpet.  There has been no growth in the Klaine relationship, only mistake upon mistake.  Too many kids still believe in fairytales, and no marriage is a fairytale. Existing problems don't miraculously disappear when the "I Do"'s are said.

 

 

 

That forum makes me think that RIB knows who they are writing for because most of the posters over there are loving this season. I think it is mostly because they are shippers who love that RIB is giving them their ships, they don't really care how that it happens.

Edited February 6, 2015 by SevenStars

[pete]

They have weeded out most dissenters.

[SevenStars]

They have weeded out most dissenters.

 

Yeah, they have and they claim to be the most open-minded and tolerant Glee Forum, lol. They have made it into safe-haven for like-minded people, while making dissenters feel unwelcome. The biggest dissenters were Mercedes/Amber/Samcedes fans, and a month or so ago they did a clean-up of those posters by suspending the accounts of the most frequent and out-spoken members.

[fakeempress]

My perfunctory impression is GF is mainly Blaine, Sam, Blam, and Sam/Rachel forum, with a hub of Kurt/Blaine shippers also remaining. 

[Sara2009]

They genuinely LIKE every character there, though. Even Will has some fans, which is partially why I still post there.

[LydiaMoon1]

So true about GF.  Their remaining group of like-minded people is obviously Glee's season 6 target audience.  RIB can go to that site and see their loving fans gush over their wit and brilliance.

 

They genuinely LIKE every character there, though.

That's debatable. 

 

See

The biggest dissenters were Mercedes/Amber/Samcedes fans, and a month or so ago they did a clean-up of those posters by suspending the accounts of the most frequent and out-spoken members.

Edited February 6, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Ceeg]

They genuinely LIKE every character there, though. 

 

Nah, they just pretend to.

[Sara2009]

Would " every character except Mercedes" be more accurate?

[fakeempress]

Would " every character except Mercedes" be more accurate?

I haven't noticed any big love for Kurt either.

 

Maybe each individual character has their fans there as it is a big board, but as a whole the scales there seem to me very tilted towards Blaine and Sam, for instance. I'm speaking about the original characters+Season 2 additions, and not about the newbies both first and second wave. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by fakeempress

[SevenStars]

I haven't noticed any big love for Kurt either.

 

Maybe each individual character has their fans there, but as a whole the scales there seem very tilted towards Blaine and Sam, for instance. I'm speaking about the original characters+Season 2 additions, and not about the newbies both first and second wave. 

 

I think Kurt have his stans there and they are not afraid to speak-up and defend him or support his character. Also, the reason he gets break from there is because a lot, if not most, of the posters are Klainers.  

[pete]

Yeah, they have and they claim to be the most open-minded and tolerant Glee Forum, lol. They have made it into safe-haven for like-minded people, while making dissenters feel unwelcome. The biggest dissenters were Mercedes/Amber/Samcedes fans, and a month or so ago they did a clean-up of those posters by suspending the accounts of the most frequent and out-spoken members.

The biggest dissenters were the NY vs the Lima crowd.   Lima won out.

Edited February 6, 2015 by pete

[fakeempress]

I think Kurt have his stans there and they are not afraid to speak-up and defend him or support his character. Also, the reason he gets break from there is because a lot, if not most, of the posters are Klainers.  

Probably, but they aren't as many of them left, I don't think, on balance, which was what I was talking about.  I think most Klainers there, as anywhere at the moment, are Blaine fans first and foremost - again on balance. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by fakeempress

[SevenStars]

Probably, but they aren't as many of them left, I don't think, on balance, which was what I was talking about.  I think most Klainers there, as anywhere at the moment, are Blaine fans first and foremost - again on balance. 

 

I agree with you.

[Glorfindel]

Probably, but they aren't as many of them left, I don't think, on balance, which was what I was talking about.  I think most Klainers there, as anywhere at the moment, are Blaine fans first and foremost - again on balance. 

A lot of Kurtsies left GF 3 years ago and started their own Chris Colfer fan forum, when there was often tension on GF between those who primarily like Kurt as an individual (and who were slowly starting to question Blaine and his relationship/comparison with Kurt) and Klaine shippers/Blaine fans.

 

Many people on GF also like the season 4 noobs a lot, and it is (as far as I can tell) the most pro-writers/season 6 Glee board there is.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Glorfindel

[camussie]

Would " every character except Mercedes" be more accurate?

 

 

No.  Because, until Cory passed, they hated Finn which I still think is part of the reason for the big Sam embrace.  When he was brought on he was used to ding a character that was really disliked ergo Sam quickly became a GF fan favorite.  

 

Still I would say the defining characteristic is that many over there are still RM fans.  

Edited February 6, 2015 by camussie

[fakeempress]

No.  Because until Cory passed they hated Finn which I still think is part of the reason for the big Sam embrace.  When he was brought on he was used to ding a character that was really disliked ergo Sam became a GF fan favorite.  

 

Still I would say the defining characteristic is that many over there are still RM fans.  

First, about Finn - really? That's depressing. 

 

Now it makes sense, many of them being RM fans. Writer stans (my favourite topic) will swallow anything that the writers spew out. 

[camussie]

I get hating Finn after S2.  He was written as a grade A jackhole but there were many fans, especially on Gleeforum, who disliked him from the beginning.  My impression was that many felt that a Broadway baby/trained singer should have played the role of Finn.  Instead a green singer (to say the least) was given the role.  

 

To be fair I always thought it was dumb in S1 when they said Finn was ND best male singer.  He wasn't.  Artie was.  Still I feel Cory was one of the most talented actors in the young cast and also had a presence which made him believable as the lead of a show choir, despite his weak singing.  Given those factors I feel he was the right choice to play Finn.

Edited February 6, 2015 by camussie

[spiritof76]

 

Yeah, they have and they claim to be the most open-minded and tolerant Glee Forum, lol. They have made it into safe-haven for like-minded people, while making dissenters feel unwelcome. The biggest dissenters were Mercedes/Amber/Samcedes fans, and a month or so ago they did a clean-up of those posters by suspending the accounts of the most frequent and out-spoken members.

I used to posted there quite a lot. Only ever in the Samcedes forum. Thew few times I ventured out into the general thread the hate was so strong I couldn't take it.

 

I took a break from there a while back and literally within the past week, I went in there after months and that is when I saw a lot of people were missing. I went back and read what happened. There was a truly horrible, horrible forum thread started about race, and how no one on GF has ever said anything racially insensitive ever, and if you think so, then you are just too sensitive. There was a lot of other stuff to, honestly I could only get through a couple of pages before, i was seeing red. I decided then and there I would never post there again and i haven't and I won't.

 

There was a very, very heavy bias against Mercedes/Amber. How she looked, how she sounded. And there was usually something in there about her weight. Of course nobody ever actually came out and said, "Hey, I hate Mercedes/Amber because she is black", but there is a thing called subtle racism and it was strong there. Like the conversations that we have been having about Mercedes being used as a racial stereotype and trope 

in service of the Samchel plot

  could never be had there. It wouldn't have even been recognized as a valid argument to make. 

 

I don't think I really understood fandom until I went over there. It's a scary place. Fandom, that is.

[KatWay]

 

To be fair I always thought it was dumb in S1 when they said Finn was ND best male singer.  He wasn't.  Artie was.  Still I feel Cory was one of the most talented actors in the young cast and also had a presence which made him believable as the lead of a show choir, despite his weak singing.  Given those factors I feel he was the right choice to play Finn.

 

I can't imagine anyone playing Finn but Cory, that to me indicates that the role was perfectly cast. No he wasn't the best singer, but improved greatly.

That said, Finn used to get even more vitriol than Blaine over at TWOP from what I remember. I mean, he was written as a pretty awful person in S2, but he was hated before that and some were only waiting for the writing to justify their dislike. I think he wasn't "hot" enough for some to be the male lead and some people just dislike any canon-pushed main couple from the beginning (which probably relates to the recent years push of "Second Guy Wins" on TV). See also the crazy support for Puckleberry after one episode of them dating while still mooning after other people.

 

I've always side-eyed the people who claim Samcedes just doesn't make sense to them - when basically any crack ship on the show got a fandom five seconds after being teased. The Glee fans will ship anything. Except for, it appears, Samcedes. Now why might that be....

[jaytee1812]

I've always side-eyed the people who claim Samcedes just doesn't make sense to them - when basically any crack ship on the show got a fandom five seconds after being teased. The Glee fans will ship anything. Except for, it appears, Samcedes. Now why might that be....

According to the show it was that black women might have a problem with it! Cos apparently white people are never racist and if they are it's just a joke or people of colour are too sensitive.*

*sarcasm.

[spiritof76]

 

According to the show it was that black women might have a problem with it! Cos apparently white people are never racist and if they are it's just a joke or people of colour are too sensitive.*

What I used to see the most, was "Mercedes and Sam just don't look right together". Of course they weren't talking about their skin color or body type, it was just something, they couldn't really explain. They just didn't look "right" together. Also there was a lot of "they just don't have any chemistry", which I know can be subjective, but I couldn't help but think at least some people meant, they couldn't imagine someone like Sam could possibly be into and attracted to someone like Mercedes. There was definitely a group of people who thought Mercedes didn't deserve someone like Sam and was lucky he was even interested in her.

 

All that being said, I have to say the Samcedes pairing has more general audience support then I thought.  I got a bit of a kick out of the fact that Samcedes came in third in E!'s "Top Glee Ships Ever" poll. Right behind Brittana and Klaine. A relationship that, as of last night, doesn't even exist anymore, came in right behind the two relationships that the show is focusing its last season on. And beat out other ships that have been given huge focus in the past (Finchel, Wemma, Quick, Tike). I know it's just one of those silly polls, so it doesn't mean anything, but I was shocked that they finished that high. Pleasantly surprised actually. So I'll just hold on to that as Glee tries to tell me that 

Sam and Rachel are endgame and true love forever.

[fakeempress]

 

What I used to see the most, was "Mercedes and Sam just don't look right together". Of course they weren't talking about their skin color or body type, it was just something, they couldn't really explain. They just didn't look "right" together. Also there was a lot of "they just don't have any chemistry", which I know can be subjective, but I couldn't help but think at least some people meant, they couldn't imagine someone like Sam could possibly be into and attracted to someone like Mercedes. There was definitely a group of people who thought Mercedes didn't deserve someone like Sam and was lucky he was even interested in her.

 

I've seen this too, and it sounded as not so thin-veiled disparaging of Mercedes, that she can't possibly attract a guy like Sam (whom they apparently see not only as superbly hot but also as superbly desirable in general). Never mind that the show has shown Mercedes being attractive not only to Sam but also to another jock, Shane - but I guess Shane was acceptable and appropriate because he was black (I'm being sarcastic here), so I also think there is a racial and also body type underlayer at play  in judging what "looks right", that it's not just subjective. It reminds me how some people said (and I think some Blaine stans still ramble about this) that Kurt could never attract someone like Blaine - as if Blaine is such a prize; and the main thrust of that attitude being Kurt as a more feminine gay can't be attractive to someone ostensibly more "masculine" or "hotter" (again debatable but w/e) like Blaine. It speaks to people's own stereotyping to say the least.

Edited February 7, 2015 by fakeempress

[phoenixrising]

There was definitely a group of people who thought Mercedes didn't deserve someone like Sam and was lucky he was even interested in her.

 

 

What show were these people watching? 

 

I wasn't really in fandom at this time, but did people say stuff like that about Puck/Lauren when they were a thing? 

[tom87]

People say stuff like that about every couple.    People say  A is just a prop for B, but then others say B is a prop for A.    A gets a POV more then B, B always get the POV over A. etc. etc.

 

Perception  is an interesting thing.  

[spiritof76]

 

I wasn't really in fandom at this time, but did people say stuff like that about Puck/Lauren when they were a thing?

I think there might have been some of that. But I also saw a lot of people (well the ones who were paying attention to Lauren and Puck) upset that the show treated their relationship like a joke. A sentiment I agree with. I think the show did some pretty offensive things regarding Lauren and I give Ashley props for grinning and bearing her way through it. 

 

 

What show were these people watching?

Exactly. It sounds crazy right? I'm not really a fandom person, so all of this is sort of new to me. But from what I can see, and this s not just Glee, women of color, especially, African-American women, tend to come in for some harsh treatment in fandoms. It's usually couched in very PC terms of course. People aren't stupid enough to be blatant about it. But like I said, this isn't just a Glee fandom issue. Which is why I am so glad to see, so many more tv shows being made with women of color in prominent roles, in front of and behind the camera. It's nice not to have to be a prop in someone else's story.

[caracas1914]

There was a lot criticisms of Mercedes as a character that was veiled racism IMO.