Thunderdome: Glee fandoms

[caracas1914]

Glee fandom:

Thunderdome:

Subfandoms enter.., no one leaves unscathed or un bloodied.

Maybe it's just me , but a more split, fractured and divisive fandom for an ensemble cast in the social media age is hard to find that can top glee in legendary infighting.

Everything from song distribution, screen time, shipdoms versus other shipdoms, individual Stans of characters versus other Stans, original Glee versus season Two versus Season 4 Noobs, McKinley narrative versus New York Narrative, Finchel fans versus Rachel and Finn fans, Klaine fans versus Kurt and Blaine fans.

What a mess and let's not minimize the Glee showrunners/writers stirring the Macbethan concoction gleefully.

Edited November 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

I tried to think about comparisons but I haven't gotten involved in fandoms except for Veronica Mars, and there I was mostly contained to TWOP, and a bit of  FF reading on LJ.  I watched some big fandom series like Buffy when they were already off the air but I suppose people who were there can say if they avoided these fandom pitfalls. I know you mentioned ensemble cast, and VM and Buffy have very strong leading characters, but to the extent that Rachel is the lead they can be compared. But from what little I have come across, the most vile  - and it's not so much a screen fandom or not exclusively I should say - must be the Harry Potter one. I'm sure some of you here are familiar with the fandom wank account of MsScribe, and generally the ugly HP shipping and character wars.

 

As for VM, it's less of an ensemble show though some supporting characters got really prominent and got their own fandoms with the same entitlement attitudes, so what we have on our hands here is by no means exclusive. Two shows that are quite different in thematics and genre (save for a high school setting and the "underdog" variation) end up with the same type of fandom wars. So I think the similarities are more due to the nature of the fandom phenomenon and not so much due to a particular show. For instance, the Pirates (Karofsky stans) are carbon copies of Sheriff Lamb / Michael Muhney and Dick stans. There was also a very similar situation with shippers and their respective attitude to Kristen Bell as there is now in the Klaine/anti-Klaine fights. Some very loud Logan/Veronica shippers (disclaimer: I shipped them too) who grew to be huge Jason stans (another disclaimer: I loved Jason as Logan as I love Chris as Kurt ) took great exception to Kristen's not so fannish attitude to the ship, and she was tarred and feathered every time she mentioned how in real life she wouldn't go for a Logan type. I can see something similar going on with some Klaine shippers who are mostly Darren/Blaine stans and hate Chris for his opinions and non-shipping. Also, same for the extreme Logan /Jason and Blaine/Darren haters, very similar attitudes, and fan behavior, with the caveat that Jason was very fan friendly, while Chris for all the reasons we know, incl. crisscolfer, has grown more reserved and more focused on his own projects, which the haters, ahem, hate. There was also a conspiracy theory how Rob Thomas (the EP) and Kristen were in cahoots to keep the other Veronica ship alive and glorify Duncan as a character, and were therefore "enemy No.1" of the L/V ship.

 

I think if you poke around other fandoms, things may not be that much different. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by fakeempress

[tom87]

From what I have seen  most fandoms have some crazies, especially shipper fandoms. 

 

Also each fandom feels they are the most targeted, the most benighted by the show, the most devoted, the biggest, the bestest etc....

Edited November 20, 2014 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

I can take the craziness of any fandoms except real life shippers. I came across some CrissColfer shippers on social media and they scared the bejesus out of me.

[shantown]

I can take the craziness of any fandoms except real life shippers. I came across some CrissColfer shippers on social media and they scared the bejesus out of me.

I will never understand shipping real people, mostly because they tend to bully real people.

[truthaboutluv]

Shipping real people is crazy as fuck and I don't care about some who say that they aren't the really obsessed ones but just people who think they would be cute together. No, I've observed enough fandoms to know it never stays "innocent" no matter how much some claim it's just in good fun at the start. Inevitably it always crosses the line into full on batshit crazy territory where the actors' real life boyfriend/girlfriend gets attacked, name calling, etc. When it comes to Darren and Chris, honestly, that's what amuses me about the rumors that they hate each other. Because from my understanding, many people have become convinced that they loathe each other because of the awful Kurt and Blaine scenes and how they seem to have zero interaction with each other that's not a requirement of the show and it's a marked contrast to when Darren first joined the show and Klaine became a thing.

 

And personally I've always stated that there is no law that says that just because people play romantic interests they should be BFF's offscreen and it does appear that they are certainly more work acquaintances and nothing more. But I've sometimes wondered if part of the reason they seem to have zero interaction publicly is because of the same nutjobs who decided to create some fantasy relationship that did not exist and feel the need to share that with both Darren and Chris and say disgusting and horrible things about their significant others. So they probably avoid any chance to give them any fodder for their fantasies. 

 

As for the rest of the fandom, like I've noted, I frankly at times find it as annoying if not more than the horrible writing. I guess it's because I don't "stan" for any of the actors on the show so it's easier to be removed from things and view the show as a whole. To me fandom is usually filled with a lot of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness - "my fave is amazing because of this but this actor/character I hate is annoying because of this, my fave is really the one who gets the hate and when I say hateful things about this actor it's just because of the hate my fave gets" and someone else flips it with the same actors and insists it's the other way around, my fave is the one being ruined and not being appreciated, etc. etc." And the end of the day, I always advocate for all to come together and collectively direct the hate to where it rightly belongs - at RIB. 

[Sara2009]

Even the small Wemma fandom has its crazies. Matt actually blocked a few people on Twitter a couple of weeks ago because they were hating on his wife, and then tagging him and her in it.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Sara2009

[jaytee1812]

Even when it's harmless it's not. Every time Jacon Artist or Becca Tobin post a picture of the two of them together they always get 'aww you two should date' comments. It's only three or four months since her boyfriend died.

[camussie]

I normally don't ship anyone (my St.Berry ship being the sole exception of any TV show ever) but Glee sure managed to rapidly turn me into an anti-shipper re: Klaine and Finchel. I hated having their toxic relationships shoved down our throats as supposedly healthy, romantic, endgames. I guess with Finn's death they're now really pushing the Brittana and Klaine endgames. Blech!

 

 

 

Any relationship that got a decent amount of focus on this show would end up "toxic."  If Jessie/Rachel had gotten the focus of Finn/Rachel it would have ended up being "toxic" as well because that is the only thing RM & team seem to know how to write.  Not to mention they, like many showrunner, seem to be slaves to the "Moonlighting curse" where they think keeping a couple apart and then slapping them together at the end of the series makes for good TV.  

 

That is why it all comes down to whose chemistry a viewer prefers. I preferred Finn/Rachel but I know others preferred Jessie/Rachel, etc.  The only thing I refuse to concede is that if Jessie/Rachel, etc, were written as endgame starting in season 1 it would have been a healthier, better written relationship.  Nope.  It would have been ended up being just as "toxic."

Edited November 30, 2014 by camussie

[truthaboutluv]

If Jessie/Rachel had gotten the focus of Finn/Rachel it would have ended up being "toxic" as well because that is the only thing RM & team seem to know how to write.

 

 

And well they had enough focus for the writers to have him crack an egg on her head. I think that says it all right there with how these people handle relationships on that show.

[Casual Viewing]

I totally agree they would have made Rachel and Jesse toxic. These are the same writers who had Jesse saying he liked Rachel and didn't want to hurt her in one episode and then the next thing we know he's egging her. No logical explanation, no build-up, just a complete 180 degree turn because they were too lazy to write it properly.

The writers can't write good relationships because they can't develop characters or even maintain a character's personality from one episode to the next.

I am forever grateful that Groff wasn't a regular on the show, and as it currently stands I wouldn't want Jesse with the Rachel who has been on my screen for the past few seasons.

It really makes me wonder what kind of relationships the writers have in their real lives because they are so dreadful at writing relationships.

Is there any ship on Glee that hasn't been demolished beyond repair? Are there any shippers who can say they are happy with the state of their Glee ship?

ETA, I guess the Wemma ship is still afloat and tolerable but again that is due to lack of screen time more than good writing.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Casual Viewing

[tom87]

I dislike the RIBs idea of Rachel coming "home" to Finn but in a odd way if it was 10 years down the road and she was still staying in show business (like doing movies or recording so her home base could be anywhere)  it would be better than how Klaine and Brittana are getting married at 19/20 years old.

 

And my main reason for not liking her coming home to Finn is because I  still can not understand why she was never enough to be his "home" and him teaching in the NY or NJ suburbs some place.

[caracas1914]

I figured going "home" for a Rachel was reuniting with Finn, ie not returning to Lima but with her soulmate.

Doesn't make it any less odd, though. The premise rest on the idea that Rachel would follow her dreams and that Finn would be conveniently unattached while teaching at McKinley for this romantic reunion .

[tom87]

I figured going "home" for a Rachel was reuniting with Finn, ie not returning to Lima but with her soulmate.

Doesn't make it any less odd, though. The premise rest on the idea that Rachel would follow her dreams and that Finn would be conveniently unattached while teaching at McKinley for this romantic reunion .

I  know home is Finn not Lima.  And that is exactly  why I always wonder why Finn could not make Rachel his home.  

[Myrna123]

And that is exactly  why I always wonder why Finn could not make Rachel his home.

Because they were going to eventually become two adults who recognized they were completely ill-suited to be with one another in a long-term romantic relationship?  Sort of like Puck and Quinn, Kurt and Blaine, Mike and Tina....

[caracas1914]

I  know home is Finn not Lima.  And that is exactly  why I always wonder why Finn could not make Rachel his home.

 

 

Hearya..

 

Finn was pictured as the passive character with no real dreams of his own and yet he couldn't see himself living in the big Apple, where everything "moved too fast".  Which begs the question, if he knew that Broadway stardom was Rachel's burning ambition, why would he even harbor any desires to get back together with her at all ?  LIke you said, a suburb in Jersey would work as well as Lima, if not better.   Just odd he would think being with Rachel wasn't all that important to him.

 

Seems Ryan Murphy has beyond conservative views on relationships. 

Edited December 1, 2014 by caracas1914

[Casual Viewing]

The way RIB also made Finn unable to let Rachel go and got all territorial as soon as another guy was interested in her (but the rest of the time he kind of tuned her/her dreams out) is also so wrong for a relationship. I think you are right about the old school, conservative view Murphy holds.

Finn could have taught anywhere, Rachel's career was more location specific, why couldn't Finn be the one to compromise for the time being? Couples do it call the time. I just did not understand that relationship at all the way it was written.

[Myrna123]

why couldn't Finn be the one to compromise for the time being?

They were 18. Why should either one of them compromise? Why not just split up and remember one another fondly?

[Casual Viewing]

... Why not just split up and remember one another fondly?

Well, that's the way I wished it had been written but since RIB were so set on their endgames that was never going to happen.

I still think had Rachel and Finn married they would have ended up like the final verse in "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights."--which could actually be a comedic farce, or dark comedy and fun to watch. The problem however, is that RIB appear to believe that Finchel, Klaine, et al are healthy relationships.

[camussie]

I figured going "home" for a Rachel was reuniting with Finn, ie not returning to Lima but with her soulmate.

 

Doesn't make it any less odd, though. The premise rest on the idea that Rachel would follow her dreams and that Finn would be conveniently unattached while teaching at McKinley for this romantic reunion .

 

 

The only reason it had to be that way is because RM needed Finn in Lima to anchor his newbie experiment.  No other reason.  After all when RM had spin-off plans Finn was to be a part of those so it that version of Glee he was going to find his way in New York.

 

Sure Finn wasn't sure he fit in New York when he didn't have a dream of his own but he NEVER said he would never fit there.  

 

They were 18. Why should either one of them compromise? Why not just split up and remember one another fondly?

 

 

Taking away the Finn needed to stay in Lima to anchor the newbies factor I still say there is no reason he couldn't move to New York.  Well beyond RM's and team shortsighted view that the only people who "fit" in NYC are people pursing a career in the performing arts or fashion and the people who serve those people coffee.  Like I said above not once did Finn say he would NEVER fit in there.  Rachel said he was "too country" for NYC  (which I think was mainly informed by her myopic view of NYC that largely reflected the writers' myopic view) but Finn NEVER said that.  For someone who was "too country" for NYC he seemed to get around just fine and enjoyed the city quite a bit when they were there for nationals their junior year. 

 

And my main reason for not liking her coming home to Finn is because I  still can not understand why she was never enough to be his "home" and him teaching in the NY or NJ suburbs some place.

 

 

And my main reason for not liking it is the idea that Finn would just put his life on hold until the day Rachel decided that she could put him first.

 

Just odd he would think being with Rachel wasn't all that important to him. 

 

 

Seemed just as unimportant to her if RM got to write the ending he wanted.  After all in whatever time frame it was neither one would have made an effort to see how the other could fit into their current life.  Rachel wouldn't have said come to New York and we can live in the suburbs  if you want and Finn wouldn't have offered up that solution either

 

But as I said this isn't Finn/Rachel specific.  If Rachel/Jesse was "endgame" from season 1 on they too would have been written with obstacles that kept them apart until the very last scene.  It wouldn't have been the same ones but would have been others that left many a viewer wondering why do these people even want to be together in the end?  

 

That is why it all comes down to the chemistry an individual viewer prefers.  I preferred Finn/Rachel's but I am under no illusion that most of their story was actually rootworthy and well written.  But then again really no romance that got any focus on this show is.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

But as I said this isn't Finn/Rachel specific.  If Rachel/Jesse was "endgame" from season 1 on they too would have been written with obstacles that kept them apart until the very last scene.  It wouldn't have been the same ones but would have been others that left many a viewer wondering why do these people even want to be together in the end?

 

The irony is that in the cases of both Jesse St. James and Bordy Weston, Rachel's career drive and dreams were welcomed and encouraged by both of them, unlike supposedly Finn, because they shared similar dreams/goals..  Of course the first had to egg her publicly and the second ended up a lying male prostitute.

 

I said "supposedly" because in  fairness to Finn, even Rahel's career dreams as an obstacle  was lame precisely because by season 3 (with one or two exceptions) Finn had reconciled himself that Rachel must follow her dream, even putting her on that train to New York.  (The context of that was that Rachel had been willing to postpone going to NY until he could join her, so that refutes that Rachel wasn't willing to "compromise")  So it still makes no sense to me that if they had such a burning eternal love they would have to stay separated until the concluding series fade out as if the hurdles were impossibly high.. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

The irony is that in the cases of both Jesse St. James and Bordy Weston, Rachel's career drive and dreams were welcomed and encouraged by both of them, unlike supposedly Finn, because they shared similar dreams/goals..  Of course the first had to egg her publicly and the second ended up a lying male prostitute.

 

I said "supposedly" because in  fairness to Finn, even Rahel's career dreams as an obstacle  was lame precisely because by season 3 (with one or two exceptions) Finn had reconciled himself that Rachel must follow her dream, even putting her on that train to New York.  (The context of that was that Rachel had been willing to postpone going to NY until he could join her, so that refutes that Rachel wasn't willing to "compromise")  So it still makes no sense to me that if they had such a burning eternal love they would have to stay separated until the concluding series fade out as if the hurdles were impossibly high.. 

Rachel also did ask him to stay in NY and they would find his dream together but he choose to leave and return to Lima.

[camussie]

Rachel also did ask him to stay in NY and they would find his dream together but he choose to leave and return to Lima.

 

 

To me most of the time Rachel saying she would support Finn finding a dream seemed like an afterthought to her.  When they were discussing going to New York together in season three it was always I need you there with me because I can't do this alone.  It was never I want you there with me so you can start on the road to your dream of making something for yourself away from Lima.   He may not have had a specific career ambition by the time he was graduating high school (and really how many people do) but he had that dream

 

The irony is that in the cases of both Jesse St. James and Bordy Weston, Rachel's career drive and dreams were welcomed and encouraged by both of them, unlike supposedly Finn, because they shared similar dreams/goals..  Of course the first had to egg her publicly and the second ended up a lying male prostitute.

 

 

With the exception of him wanting Rachel to consider LA I can't think of one instance where Finn didn't encourage her Broadway dreams.  He was constantly telling her she was a star and she was better than Lima and she would make it out of there.  Sure he didn't want to be a performer himself (which made him "too country" for NYC if we go by Rachel's attitude, at least that is what I felt she meant when she referred to him as too country) but that isn't the same thing as not encouraging her dreams.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[Myrna123]

In less completely and utterly incompetent hands, there's no reason why the story couldn't have been the importance of music to both Rachel and Finn; their importance to one another when they were teenagers and then still to end up in entirely different places at the end of the show. 

 

I totally buy that Finn wouldn't have been happy or fulfilled living in NYC or some suburb of New York/New Jersey.  Yes he wanted to get out of Lima, but that was before he'd been anywhere in the world but Lima.  Plenty of people move away from home and then move back when they realize it wasn't that bad after all.  Or they move to a big city and realize they'd prefer a small town.  I never saw Finn as a country boy, but I did see him as a small town guy.  I can't imagine Burt Hummel wanting to live in NYC either and Finn was always more in Burt's image than Kurt ever was.  I could totally see Finn marrying a small town girl, taking over Burt's business and forming a garage band with Puck that was famous all over northeast Ohio.  The finale of the series could have been Rachel getting ready to go on for her show-stopping Broadway number, but really quickly watching a clip on YouTube of Finn's latest performance with a nostalgic little smile on her face.  Boom--fade to black, end of show.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Myrna123

[camussie]

In less completely and utterly incompetent hands, there's no reason why the story couldn't have been the importance of music to both Rachel and Finn; their importance to one another when they were teenagers and then still to end up in entirely different places at the end of the show.

 

 

By the same token in less incompetent hands there is no reason why the story couldn't be that two people who were are very different personalities were exactly what each other needed to achieve their dreams.  Finn could have provided a grounding force to Rachel for her to realize there is life outside of performing and Rachel could have been the one to help Finn to find a specific dream beyond getting out of Lima.  Frankly that is what I felt they were setting up in the first season but since these guys couldn't write a romance to save their lives it never achieved that potential.  Just like no other Rachel/guy endgame was going to achieve its potential.

 

I totally buy that Finn wouldn't have been happy or fulfilled living in NYC or some suburb of New York/New Jersey.  Yes he wanted to get out of Lima, but that was before he'd been anywhere in the world but Lima.  Plenty of people move away from home and then move back when they realize it wasn't that bad after all.  Or they move to a big city and realize they'd prefer a small town.

 

 

For me it is hard to say one way or another simply because they never gave him a chance to even try away from Lima (not even to go to college) all because they needed him in Lima to anchor RM's newbie fetish.  Hell even Sam got that chance but if RM got his way, had Finn lived, he was never going to.  I have long said I could have accepted him moving back to Lima after he went away to college if that is what he actively chose but to never give him that choice is what I felt was a betrayal of his original story.

 

Realistically they weren't going to fund 3 narratives so of course he would have gone to school in NYC but the main point is to fulfill the premise of his original story - that was more than a Lima loser, at least in his own eyes, he had to have the courage to try and achieve something away from Lima.  He had to actively take a hold of his dreams rather than passively accept them.  If, after he did that, he chose to return to Lima because that is where he wanted to be I would have been fine with that, even if it meant no Finn/Rachel "endgame."

 

 

I could totally see Finn marrying a small town girl, taking over Burt's business and forming a garage band with Puck that was famous all over northeast Ohio.

 

 

Honestly the idea that Finn was the heir apparent to Burt's garage bugs the hell out of me.  He was a good teacher so I see no reason why he shouldn't have gone to college for that,  Burt guilt tripping him to  take over the garage (all while telling him hey your dad didn't die a hero but rather an addict) is yet another example of Burt being a  lousy stepfather (and I still wonder why he was even there, let alone having a bigger role than Carol in that reveal).  

 

The real problem is that out of the three leads, Finn was the one who hadn't had a dream since he was still in diapers and instead of the show acknowledging that as the norm  they treated him as deficient because, in contrast, both Rachel and Kurt were laser focused on what they wanted and had been since pre-K.   For example, instead of Burt encouraging Finn to take some classes to figure out what he wanted to do he just assumed Finn would take over the garage.  It was almost like they all said you don't know exactly what you want to right now?  Well then you just have to accept your fate is to stay in Lima and take over Burt's garage.  But only him.  After all Santana gave up a college scholarship to pursue some vague dream of "becoming a star" in New York. I can't even imagine how RM would have treated Finn in the writing if he did something like that.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

The real problem is that out of the three leads, Finn was the one who hadn't had a dream since he was still in diapers and instead of the show acknowledging that as the norm  they treated him as deficient because, in contrast, both Rachel and Kurt were laser focused on what they wanted and had been since pre-K.

 

Maybe , but Season 1 showed that Finn wasn't quite happy with his traditional role, aka big man on campus status with cheerleader GF, even if he couldn't quite pinpoint why.  Joining Glee did not help him socially at all , and of all the early ND members  he was emphatically not a loser or underdog.  He wanted to get out of Lima and it's a pity that the show dropped the ball in further developing the Jock who liked to sing and dance.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

Back to the topic of fandoms, people are throwing hissy fits and gigantic tantrums that Blaine and Sam could be missing from the flashback episode (who knows if it's really flashback but I'll call it that). It's one freaking Glee episode but you'd think it's the Red Wedding. 

[caracas1914]

Back to the topic of fandoms, people are throwing hissy fits and gigantic tantrums that Blaine and Sam could be missing from the flashback episode (who knows if it's really flashback but I'll call it that). It's one freaking Glee episode but you'd think it's the Red Wedding.

 

Yup fans indignation that this is a ...drumroll..."filler" episode when in essence most of Season 4/5 McKinley was essentially that with nary a complaint from said fans.

 

Perish the thought that there are other  fans of the Original 5 dynamics who might enjoy some focus on them for a change, like once in four years.    What amuses me are the so called "Klainer" fans who are threatening to boycott watching, because , uh...Kurt might actually be spotlighted in an episode.  The horror.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[indeed]

I'm sure Blaine will actually have a scene with Kurt or Karofsky of the "almost met" variety or some such. Why should S1 Kurt be deprived just because Dalton didn't happen yet?!

[fakeempress]

I am of the opinion that most Klaine fans are really Blaine stans first and a lot of them just tolerate Kurt out of necessity, so I'm not surprised by the boycott talk. As if it'll make any difference, but that never stopped entitlement. For some of them Glee started with Never Been Kissed, S1 doesn't exist and they never bothered to see what it was before Blaine (and Sam) graced the show with their presence, but they always have tons of opinions about said first season and how much screentime and focus the originals should have - somehow the math always comes out in Blaine (and also Sam's) favour. 

[indeed]

What, are the Glee IIC really going to get scared over the saber-rattling of about ten people? Go ahead and boycott a .6 show airing on Friday nights that will already have been filmed in its entirety (or pretty close to it) by the time the season starts early next year.

Speculation on flashback episode...just to be safe.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if we're getting this episode just to have another excuse to have Blaine break out in song in his Dalton uniform. Because that's what the fans really want! (No, not even in S2 for this viewer.) Maybe Sam will be playing on a rival football team going against McKinley when Kurt used to kick so we can see him go "WTF?!...cool" when the team breaks out in dance. (I don't remember where Sam originally came from, but I'm sure they could easily shoehorn him in to 2009 if they must.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by indeed

[caracas1914]

I am of the opinion that most Klaine fans are really Blaine stans first and a lot of them just tolerate Kurt out of necessity, so I'm not surprised by the boycott talk.

 

Yup, there wasn't an outrage of Klainer fans who were boycotting back in Season 4 when there was plenty of Blee /Blam with a MIA  Kurt in multiple episodes  to grace their screens.  

 

Mind you, all fans are entitled, and all stans are biased , but the double standards are amusing.

[Danielle87]

I'm looking forward to the episode if it has the same tone as the first 13. Mostly Rachel/Will focus, black comedy, old school Rachel before she was ruined, bitchy Kurt before he became a saint, etc. If it's going to be the same crap as they've been doing post season four or if I have to sit through a dumb Tina storyline (who in my opinion will never not be irrelevant), no thanks.

 

I get why those fans would be annoyed, as I personally pretty much consider Blaine and Sam part of the original cast as they joined early season two so it's dumb when people pit Blaine/Sam against the "originals", but Blaine gets so much screen time. It's really not that serious. I tend to think anyone who is passionate enough about Glee or it's characters is a young teen so it's expected behavior though.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Danielle87

[truthaboutluv]

Mind you, all fans are entitled, and all stans are biased , but the double standards are amusing.

 

 

Exactly. Because in my observation, Klaine fans were well, Klaine fans. They were people who liked the couple and shipped them and supported them. And from what I have observed, many of them gave up because of the utter disaster the writers turned the couple into. To me people who were actually fans of the couple, were the ones who were pissed off not because as many dismissed it, because they were mad they broke up in S4 but how the writers made them break up. I have read many people who genuinely shipped the pairing explain why they've walked away from the shit show that is Glee and it is not about Chris or Darren or Kurt or Blaine but that what the writers have done to them, there is no sane person that can still root for them. That's the actual fan of the pairing.

 

However, even from the start there were factions - people who were Kurt fans first and then people who really liked Blaine, I noticed for some of those people they were fans of Darren Criss from his Starkid/Harry Potter stuff. But I actually don't think these people were "Klaine" fans so much as they liked Kurt or Blaine and at the time the pairing worked for them. But even then there were obvious snide comments and little things that made it clear who liked which character/actor more. Like the ones who jumped on shipping Kurt with Karofksy because Blaine was boring, Darren is a shitty actor compared to Max Adler, etc. or the ones who shipped Kurt and Sebastian for well, the same reasons and the ones who shipped Blaine and Sebastian. 

 

And all was well until the writers started messing with them and those factions that already existed got worse. The comments after the episode where Blaine gets the part of Tony were telling, as was the episode of Kurt texting that guy and even the Sebastian storyline. More and more it became very obvious where people stood and which character/actor they actually liked.

Edited December 2, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[fakeempress]

 I tend to think anyone who is passionate enough about Glee or it's characters is a young teen so it's expected behavior though

Honestly, I have my doubts about that. 

 

 

 

Exactly. Because in my observation, Klaine fans were well, Klaine fans. They were people who liked the couple and shipped them and supported them. And from what I have observed, many of them gave up because of the utter disaster the writers turned the couple into. To me people who were actually fans of the couple, were the ones who were pissed off not because as many dismissed it, because they were mad they broke up in S4 but how the writers made them break up. I have read many people who genuinely shipped the pairing explain why they've walked away from the shit show that is Glee and it is not about Chris or Darren or Kurt or Blaine but that what the writers have done to them, there is no sane person that can still root for them. That's the actual fan of the pairing.

However, even from the start there were factions - people who were Kurt fans first and then people who really liked Blaine, I noticed for some of those people they were fans of Darren Criss from his Starkid/Harry Potter stuff. But I actually don't think these people were "Klaine" fans so much as they liked Kurt or Blaine and at the time the pairing worked for them. But even then there were obvious snide comments and little things that made it clear who liked which character/actor more. Like the ones who jumped on shipping Kurt with Karofksy because Blaine was boring, Darren is a shitty actor compared to Max Adler, etc. or the ones who shipped Kurt and Sebastian for well, the same reasons and the ones who shipped Blaine and Sebastian.

And all was well until the writers started messing with them and those factions that already existed got worse. The comments after the episode where Blaine gets the part of Tony were telling, as was the episode of Kurt texting that guy and even the Sebastian storyline. More and more it became very obvious where people stood and which character/actor they actually liked.

I think that's true historically. As far as the current state of play is concerned, though, my impression is that as a whole the bias in Klainedom is toward Blaine precisely because those who were predisposed toward Kurt (and those were mostly people who watched Glee from the start) left in droves, and those who loved the couple on their own were very disillusioned and couldn't watch its further destruction - all for the reasons you mention. It's true that there were always those who preferred one or the other from the start, but the balance in that fandom has changed considerably. 

 

That happens often with popular couples, though, provided a show stays on air - the writers starting to mess with the pairing for drama, and the fandom splintering into character factions, and "stans" vs "haters". That's when he irony becomes lost on some stans who - for instance those Kurt stans who vilify Blaine as the worst (emotional, sexual, etc.) abuser on earth - not only ship Kurt with Sebastian or Karofsky as antidote to Klaine, but believe these two make real sense as Kurt LIs because they're reformed, or because they "weren't that abusive or dangerous but misguided and troubled". And when you ask them how it makes sense to hate Blaine yet ship Kurtofsky or Seblaine as substitutes, they start yelling how they don't need to hear from Blaine stans. The tunnel vision is really hilarious. 

 

What also affected the Klaine fandom (also common for other shows) is the exposure the two actor fandoms got to one another when Klaine happened. If you were already a rabid Chris /Kurt fan and then a fan of Klaine when it happened, you couldn't completely avoid the rabid Darren fans who entered the picture, and vice versa. I've seen so many people say that they liked the actor/character and couple but they were so ticked off by some of their fans who can't imagine that others may not think their favourite is the best thing since sliced bread, and that was transferred onto the actor.

Edited December 2, 2014 by fakeempress

[Cranberry]

What do these people think that boycotting an episode of a dead show is even going to accomplish?

 

...Although I guess if all 10 of them skip it, that's like a third of the audience, so maybe someone will notice.

[jaytee1812]

I don't mind Blaine and Sam because they're not 'originals'. I mind that they were giving more and more screen time because the alternatives weren't an able-bodied white men. 

 

Someone made the point they had to have Finn anchor the newbies. Why did that have to be Finn? Would have made as much sense with Puck, Mercedes, Quinn (if they hadn't had her go to Yale), or Santana. Would have made the most sense with Will. 

 

I'm only back this final season for what little screen time Tina and Mike get, well with a little of Puck, Quinn and Kitty too. I'd like to watch Kurt but his screen time seems to be with Blaine or Rachel so, nope. I used to like Santana, but I hate Brittany so another nope to her storyline.

 

On fandoms, there are a handful of actors I plan to follow after Glee is over. I'm a self-confessed Tina/Jenna Uskowitz fan, so her, plus Harry Shum, Dianna Agron, Becca  Tobin, Jacob Artist, and Chris Colfer. I'll pretty much watch them in whatever they do, I'd probably add Matthew Morrison to that if I ever save the money to travel to New York and watch him on Broadway!

 

Who will everyone else follow? Anyone who'll make you switch off? (Chord Overstreet and Heather Morris for me).

[caracas1914]

Glee always had way too many characters to service (even good writers would have had a challenge with that) and by season 4 they had something like 25  plus regulars.  The caused the claws to come out via the fandoms.

 

It didn't help the fandoms when their "perception" was that  their character was neglected or  marginalized, which let;'s face it, included everyone not named Rachel or Blaine by Season five. 

 

I know, perception is perception is perception.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

I'm looking forward to the episode if it has the same tone as the first 13. Mostly Rachel/Will focus, black comedy, old school Rachel before she was ruined, bitchy Kurt before he became a saint, etc. If it's going to be the same crap as they've been doing post season four or if I have to sit through a dumb Tina storyline (who in my opinion will never not be irrelevant), no thanks.

 

I get why those fans would be annoyed, as I personally pretty much consider Blaine and Sam part of the original cast as they joined early season two so it's dumb when people pit Blaine/Sam against the "originals", but Blaine gets so much screen time. It's really not that serious. I tend to think anyone who is passionate enough about Glee or it's characters is a young teen so it's expected behavior though.

I find it interesting a writer who did not write for season one is the head writer for  this one.

 

I get why Blam fans are annoyed I was annoy when Kurt and Rachel missed 3 episodes for no reason. But the whining and boycotte and already bothering the cast and crew about it is also very annoying.

[truthaboutluv]

It didn't help the fandoms when their "perception" was that  their character was neglected or  marginalized, which let;'s face it, included everyone not named Rachel or Blaine by Season five.

 

 

But that's just it again about how fandoms work because while some complained about Blaine and Rachel in Season 5, I know plenty of people complained back in the first season about the show being all about Rachel and Finn. And then Season 2 people complained about it being all about Kurt and the St.Kurt show. Quinn/Diana Agron and Mercedes/Amber Riley fans complained about song distribution in those early seasons and how everything was Rachel/Lea.

 

Brittany/Santana fans said all the writers cared about was Klaine while Klaine fans were saying, "excuse me, they've barely had a conversation or kissed or even acknowledged each other, beside just sitting next to each other in the back of the choir room." Klaine fans said the writers didn't want to show the same sex couple having an actual relationship and instead it was all about Finchel. The point is any fan of any character/actor can make a case that their fave is the one being mistreated and ignored and not given any screentime. 

 

This is why many people have said that the absolute worse thing a showrunner can do, is to go down the rabbit hole of fandom because the reality is they will never satisfy all parts of the fandom. Some group who likes this or that couple or this or that character will always be disappointed. So better to just focus on telling the story they set out to tell and stay true to the characters they created. Now granted RIB has managed the almost impossible of making no part of fandom happy but that's neither here nor there.

Edited December 2, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[camussie]

I'm looking forward to the episode if it has the same tone as the first 13. Mostly Rachel/Will focus, black comedy, old school Rachel before she was ruined, bitchy Kurt before he became a saint, etc

 

 

The concept is decent enough but I am really wary of how they will write around the Finn issue.  Since this is the fandom thread I have to say that I think the one fandom that has every reason to be very wary about this episode are Finn "stans."   He was just as much of a focus in the first 13 as Will and Rachel so I really don't see how they can do an origin episode and not acknowledge him some how but I also am wary of how they will acknowledge him.  Will it be another episode like "City of Angels" where they used his memory to try and sell us on the concept of Sam is the new Finn?  If so no thanks.  

 

 

Quinn/Diana Agron and Mercedes/Amber Riley fans complained about song distribution in those early seasons and how everything was Rachel/Lea.

 

 

I agree with that but I also think a lot of those types of complaints came from people not accepting that Glee has never been an ensemble show.  Quinn, Mercedes, Tina, Puck, Mike, Artie, etc were never meant to get as much focus as Rachel and Finn. They were the original leads of the series along with Will.  Kurt became a lead in season 2 and Santana in season 3 but my feeling is that it the character who suffered there (as far as story and screen time) was not the rest of the supporting characters but one of the original leads - Will.  The rest were supporting like they had always been.  He went from one of the three leads to riding the whiteboard.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[lynny]

The real problem is that out of the three leads, Finn was the one who hadn't had a dream since he was still in diapers and instead of the show acknowledging that as the norm  they treated him as deficient because, in contrast, both Rachel and Kurt were laser focused on what they wanted and had been since pre-K.   For example, instead of Burt encouraging Finn to take some classes to figure out what he wanted to do he just assumed Finn would take over the garage.  It was almost like they all said you don't know exactly what you want to right now?  Well then you just have to accept your fate is to stay in Lima and take over Burt's garage.  But only him.  After all Santana gave up a college scholarship to pursue some vague dream of "becoming a star" in New York. I can't even imagine how RM would have treated Finn in the writing if he did something like that.  

 

I think Finn did have a dream since pre-K: He was going to be a football star and get a college scholarship. It just happened that his dream got dashed at some point in the second or third season when that scout (Cooter maybe?) said he wasn't good enough. He never found another dream after that really, but he did have one at the beginning

[caracas1914]

Sometimes the Glee crew  brings some of the shit  upon themselves IMO.

 

Take that cameraman Juaquin Sedillo, whose other day job is to  tweet and troll the Klaine fandom constantly, apparently basking in their attention.  When something goes off and the Klaine fandom gets on his ass, he whines and pouts and tells them not to read spoilers, etc.  Then it's rinse and repeat over again.  Wonder how he'll feel once he's in a regular TV  gig again where he doesn't have the ego stroking satisfaction of  fans clamoring for his tidbits.

 

Brad and Ryan have also done the same thing.

 

I agree with Truthaboutluv that they (RIB) should have stuck to their guns and written a journey for these characters, fandom be damned, but they did succumb and cater to fans while at the same time mocking them with snarky meta references and  "granting" fan requests backhanded (Hey Blaine stans! you want a non Kurt LI for Blaine, fuck you, I'll give you Karofsky!)

 

Playing around with the fandoms was just a camaflouge  exercise in that after the first season it was glaringly apparent  the Writers/showrunners had absolutely no vision/follow through plan or overall Bible for the show anymore.  They were creatively spent so trolling fans was emphasized more in scripts than most successful  or decent TV shows would have tolerated.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I think Finn did have a dream since pre-K: He was going to be a football star and get a college scholarship. It just happened that his dream got dashed at some point in the second or third season when that scout (Cooter maybe?) said he wasn't good enough. He never found another dream after that really, but he did have one at the beginning

 

 

If we go by the first season his only dream was to get out of Lima.  He didn't care how he did it.  Remember when he was playing Rachel to try and get a music scholarship so that he could still go to college and support his pregnant girlfriend.  And honestly there was nothing wrong with him not having a dream more specific than that.  Most high school kids don't but for Finn and Finn alone him not having a more specific dream was viewed as bad by him and everyone around him.  

 

Taking it back to fandom.  As a Finn fan it frustrated me how his lack of specific post college plans was treated very differently than every other characters.  Kurt, Santana, and Sam all went to NYC with no specific plan yet it was treated as a good thing in the writing and by the fans of those characters where as if Finn did the same thing there would have been howls from all corners of how dare he go to NYC with no plan other than wanting to be with Rachel.  Frankly i never minded that Santana, Kurt, or even Sam went to NYC with no specific plan.  I only minded the blatant double standard in the writing.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

If we go by the first season his only dream was to get out of Lima.  He didn't care how he did it

 

Yet it showed there was an "unrest" in Finn that belied the BMOC jock image he supposedly personified.   I think alot of fans connected with him because he couldn't articulate his wander lust but it was there, his blue collar angst and insecurities. 

 

Finn had fans, and it was partly  I think because he wasn't a pollshed song and dance man.  I do give the show runners credit that they picked Cory precisely because he was rough around the edges.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

Yet it showed there was an "unrest" in Finn that belied the BMOC jock image he supposedly personified.   I think alot of fans connected with him because he couldn't articulate his wander lust but it was there, his blue collar angst and insecurities. 

 

I think also Cory brought a lot of heart to Finn. Even when Finn was being a complete ass Cory brought something that as a viewer you understood why and kinda gave him a pass, or still thought of him as a nice guy. Finn suffered from the most misogynist of writing at times but Cory played him so well that Finn never seemed to be a misogynist. I think that's why he was so popular. And we all know a Finn, a guy who just wants more out of life, who's not content with what he's meant to be.  

[camussie]

Yet it showed there was an "unrest" in Finn that belied the BMOC jock image he supposedly personified.

 

 

I totally agree with this.  That is why I said his original story was that he had to develop the courage to  reach beyond his comfort zone.  Finn was obviously quite ambivalent about his BMOC status but he also wasn't going to do anything about that until he joined Glee.  That is why I have consistently maintained that  him "learning to accept" he belonged in Lima was such a betrayal that original story.  Lima, and in particular McKinley, was symbolic of his comfort zone and RM's final story for him was that he never aimed beyond that.  

 

To me that plan was as much of a betrayal of his dream as Rachel achieving her Broadway dream and being bored by it within a month is a betrayal of her dream.  That is why I think all fandoms have a right to be unhappy with RM but it is also why I think that fandoms who claim they have it the worst are simply refusing to see the damage RM has done across the board to the leads at least.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by camussie

[fakeempress]

I totally agree with this.  That is why I said his original story was that he had to develop the courage to  reach beyond his comfort zone.  Finn was obviously quite ambivalent about his BMOC status but he also wasn't going to do anything about that until he joined Glee.  That is why I have consistently maintained that  him "learning to accept" he belonged in Lima was such a betrayal that original story.  Lima, and in particular McKinley, was symbolic of his comfort zone and RM's final story for him was that he never aimed beyond that.  

 

To me that plan was as much of a betrayal of his dream as Rachel achieving her Broadway dream and being bored by it within a month is a betrayal of her dream.  That is why I think all fandoms have a right to be unhappy with RM but it is also why I think that fandoms who claim they have it the worst are simply refusing to see the damage RM has done across the board.  

Ain't that the truth. But fandoms so like to see themselves as these special snowflakes. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

Fandom is as fandom does.  It's amusing that some who accuse other  fans of clinging to Season One Glee  characters now are chomping at the bits to get some nuggets of the Season 6 Noobs so they can immediately pronounce them better than the Originals and "in love with them" already.

 

It will take some 30 seconds to immediately dismiss them and It will take 30 seconds of screentime for them to be the best Glee class ever for others with an agenda.

 

Fandom never changes.

Edited December 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[caracas1914]

I tend to think anyone who is passionate enough about Glee or it's characters is a young teen so it's expected behavior though

 

Actually from forums, tumblr and blogs some of the most passonate Klainers seem to be  straight  married women with children and  Adult Lesbians (some with children).