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Zuleikha

S01.E15: Red-Handed

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(I'm catching up on Once Upon a Time and am in S1. Stacey said it would be okay to start threads for the episodes that I'm watching that don't already have threads to comment. I am unspoiled for how this season ends, so if you want to join in on what it's like to encounter these episodes for the first time again all over again, please don't spoil me. :)

 

I liked this episode as an episode a lot. It was very powerful, and the ending truly shocked me. I did not expect Red to be the wolf or for the show to go through with her eating Peter. I also liked the evocation of Snow White and Rose Red.

 

But now that I'm past the initial emotional oomph of it, I hate it as a retelling of Little Red Riding Hood. With the other stories we've seen so far, their core has been kept intact or they're original development of side characters. The core of Little Red Riding Hood is that she outwits the wolf and saves herself and her Grandmother (or is rescued by a huntsman, but in that version there's a second encounter in which they outwit the wolf). I wouldn't have mind Granny being the werewolf and getting saved/stopped somehow by Red since that would keep to the core of the wolf transforming into Granny, but as it was, there just wasn't really anything from the actual tale. Peter outwits the wolf in Peter and the Wolf, so while the name was cute, it also wasn't any kind of clever merging of Little Red Riding Hood with Peter and the Wolf. In terms of the development we've seen so far, I found it hard to accept Red's friendship with Snow given that Snow was responsible for what happened, albeit indirectly. But people tend not to care about indirectness in the face of "your wrongheaded advice caused me to murder my love."

 

On top of that, the show is lacking in fairy-tale female action heroics. Snow has had some badass moments with her banditry, but nothing akin to Charming's fights against the dragon, other knights, or siren or even the Huntsman tavern brawl. I was really looking forward to seeing Little Red Riding Hood be an action heroine. So I was disappointed that instead we got a tragedy (which again, not the core of Little Red Riding Hood at all).

 

I also just don't think the twist made sense with the set up. Red and Snow think the wolf is Peter because they see the footprints leading to Red's window... except then shouldn't they have also seen prints leading away from the window? Or realized that the footprints had to be too fresh to come from Peter? Why would Granny procure a magical cloak to keep Red from changing and then leave her isolated in a room with an exit and take no steps to bar Red from using it? Once Granny knew that Red was removing the cloak, it makes no sense at all for her not to tell Red, especially since they already had a simple preventative. 

 

I don't even know what to think of the Storybrooke stuff, other than that I don't think it's Katherine's heart in the box (or if it is, I don't think it means that Katherine's dead given Regina's heart collection). But I'm glad things are kicking into weirdness because I am SO ready for Emma to know about magic and the curse!

Edited by Zuleikha

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I thought this was a powerful episode since it was so heartbreaking, and I really felt for Red and Granny.  I liked the Storybrooke side of the episode too with Ruby regaining part of her connection with Granny and feeling like she was useful.  I agree that in hindsight, elements of the story were a little nonsensical.  I was really disappointed Peter was killed off since I liked him.  On paper, I would have hated this "twist" on Little Red Riding Hood, but I ended up liking it since it provided some depth to the characters of Granny and Red.  I'm glad Red didn't blame Snow for what happened.  I think it showed the core goodness in Red not to go the route of misplaced blame.

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The writers do love their twists even when there are plot holes so big you can drive a truck through them. I do agree that sometimes the twists on the tales can be a bit much, but then again that's what this show is about so sometimes you just have to go with it. I actually liked the Red = Wolf twist and that they actually had her eat her boyfriend. Who'd have thought a family show would go there? Red's backstory does give us a view that for some people, a memory curse may not have been the worst thing. I mean her very strained relationship with Granny was awful and given the choice, I'm sure she'd rather remember who she is and her love for her grandmother, but having the memory of eating your boyfriend (as well as the worry that something like it might happen again) has got to be really messed up. 

 

I loved that Emma helped Ruby to find herself in this episode. Seeing Granny & Red reconcile and rediscover their love and respect for each other was a great happy ending for these two. You mention that you don't like the "tragedy" of the Little Red Riding Hood tale, but in this case, Storybrooke is where she got the traditional fairy tale ending.

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Red's backstory does give us a view that for some people, a memory curse may not have been the worst thing. I mean her very strained relationship with Granny was awful and given the choice, I'm sure she'd rather remember who she is and her love for her grandmother, but having the memory of eating your boyfriend (as well as the worry that something like it might happen again) has got to be really messed up.

 

I don't know about that... what makes someone who they are includes both the good and the bad.  I think if someone asked Red, she would have said she would have preferred to remember and be herself, despite the emotional pain.  She also did not choose to forget on her terms.  As Ruby, she lost her self-respect dressing up in revealing clothing and for 28 years, thinking she wasn't good at anything, trapped in a job she hated and waking up every morning wanting to leave but not able to.

 

I loved Emma helping Ruby too.  As you said the happy ending was in Storybrooke, just like in the Hansel & Gretel episode.

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Hi Zuleika, have fun catching up on the show!

 

Very interesting thoughts on this episode from you, and honestly, I am intruiged because I had such a different take on this episode.

 

Oddly enough Red Riding Hood is one of my favorite fairy tales, has been as kid, and still is, despite that I very much dislike how it usually is told. But it has a wolf in it, and I fancy wolves as long as I can remember. I disliked, no, hated as kid already, that usually the wolf is the bad guy in the story, so I created my own version of Red Riding Hood, one where the wolf is the nice guy, helping Red, while the villagers and the huntsman are the bad ones, bigot, hunting a being just for being different and not bowing to their ideas of nature (uhm, yep, was quite early more of an heretic).

 

At it's core Red Riding Hood was and is a cautionary tale, telling young women to listen to what they've been told, not get distracted, stay on the way, be wary and decent and not get in contact with strangers, otherwise they endanger themselves and worse even their families. Red was a bit of free spirit, but as the story wants it, that is no good for her. Or in other words: don't drink, don't party, don't flirt, don't provoke with sexy outfit, be a humble, prudent good young woman (what I never was in my life nor ever wanted to be). Find it interesting to compare that with "The Beauty and the Beast", where the beast gets the decent, empathetic woman accepting her place with the beast, and it leads to the happy ending - but the beast was not some strange guy chatting the girl up but cashing in a promise her father had made, the beast was a cursed prince so of course he had some kind of code of honor, and Belle did  mostly what she was told. It really is odd that I ever fell in love with Red Riding Hood, while I disliked The Beauty and the Beast (my version would have been the Beauty slaying the beast or so, but I didn't even bother to dwell on it) but wolf, and no princess story, guess that's what sold it to me as a story I could work with.

 

So I am quite happy with what they did in this episode, turning the cautionary tale upside-down, which makes it even more delicious that in Storybrooke Red is such a rebellious, saucy 20-something dreaming of adventure. What is different between fairyback and original versions is, that the guy tempting her to leave home and house is not some dark stranger, but a decent, nice fellow. BTW I love Peter and the Wolf - for the wolf of course, so not all happy with the ending, but great music. And big difference is, that Red doesn't need to meet a wolf, she is the wolf, has the dark side in her very self.

 

I don't see why a tragedy in the past should stand against Red being an action hero. Pretty much all heroes have a tragic story before they become full heroes, it's part of the hero quest. Being the wolf herself makes Red's character one of the more complex and thus strong and to me intriguing characters of the show. She has a strength that could be useful as much as it can be destructive. Making Red the wolf plays on old ideas of duality of human nature: The monster we might turn into given the right trigger, circumstances, are we able to handle it, control it or does it overwhelm us? Is in the animalistic energy that might be in all of us just danger and destruction or could it become something of benefit even? I find that more interesting than the original fairy tale of Red Riding Hood.

 

The interesting question is, did Red embrace her inner wolf with time, or does she hate it as her grandmother seems to hate her wolf. Can she turn the energy of the wolf into good use, combine it in productive ways with her friendly, compassionate, human side? Is she angry, and if, can she forgive her own grandmother for not telling her the truth in time, because, if she'd known, Peter probably still could be alive. Can she forgive herself for being the killer of people, of a person she loved?

 

You're right, in the logic of the story, plot of the episode are some weaknesses, be it the trace or some things Granny did, but the core of the idea, making Red the wolf, is still brilliant IMO.

 

In terms of the development we've seen so far, I found it hard to accept Red's friendship with Snow given that Snow was responsible for what happened, albeit indirectly. But people tend not to care about indirectness in the face of "your wrongheaded advice caused me to murder my love."

 

Very, very indirectly. Sure, Snow encouraged Red to hunt for the wolf, so they discovered the traces, and supported the idea, that the wolf were Peter, but she didn't know better - very different from Granny. If anyone is guilty here of something then it's Granny not letting Red know, what was really going on. Granny meant well, quite sure, but it was the dumbest thing to do (good message: Being honest, straight and open trumps meaning well, hiding thing does harm). No, don't think that was much of an obstacle to a friendship, something like that can make people bond even, they share guilt, falling for prejudices (of course a guy has to be the wolf, right, or wrong), made mistakes, which cost Peter his life.

 

Seeing an interesting parallel here to Regina and Snow. Yes, Red could have been angry at Snow, blame her even for what happened, like Regina blamed Snow for Daniel's death, but she doesn't. And I better stop here thinking, or will get into another frenzy about how sad it is that they wasted such a character like Red, sacrificing her development and possible story lines, could have even given good Regina story redemption arc material, for some goofy Disney worlds trip. Should keep that monster energy in my for a long trip on my training bike later, need to sweat it out.)

 

 

I loved that Emma helped Ruby to find herself in this episode. Seeing Granny & Red reconcile and rediscover their love and respect for each other was a great happy ending for these two. You mention that you don't like the "tragedy" of the Little Red Riding Hood tale, but in this case, Storybrooke is where she got the traditional fairy tale ending.

 

Women empowering women - there is a lot to love about this in my book. And agree, Red's happy ending is kinda in Storybrooke, which raises interesting questions, seeing that the Evil Queen cast the curse to get her happy ending, not a happy ending for the good guys. In the case of Red, who was one of the good guys despite her beast nature, forgetting might have been some relief, and some would choose that as their happy ending, while her life in Storybrooke still was unhappy until Emma helped, but would agree, that in the end Red can't find happiness without facing her own guilt in a proper way, so remembering all. Might be interesting, how that develops if the curse will be broken.

Edited by katusch

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Let's be sure to remember not to spoil future events in here; please use spoiler tags when referring to events that happen after this episode to allow new viewers to choose to be spoiled.

Also, the same rules apply in here that apply in other topics; repetitive, argumentative, and uncivil posts will be deleted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of characters/stories/story arcs, and just because they don't agree with you does not mean they're wrong. Report posts that are attacks on other posters, and do not engage in topic.

Thank you.

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But now that I'm past the initial emotional oomph of it, I hate it as a retelling of Little Red Riding Hood.

 

Personally, I've found this the best retelling of LRRH I've seen, ever (haven't seen many, though). Such a brilliant metaphor, and Red killing Peter was a truly shocking twist, not the kind of twist the show just pretends is shocking. God, I miss season one so much! I think it was actually one of my favorite episodes of Once (which is a fairly short list that also includes Hat Trick and The Miller's Daughter and a few season finales/pre-season finales).

Edited by FurryFury
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After Ruby quits Granny's diner and with her self-esteem at an all-time low, Emma hires her as an assistant in order to help Ruby discover what it is in life that she's good at; and Emma continues questioning David about the disappearance - and possible murder - of Kathryn. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, Red Riding Hood yearns to run away with her true love. But she, along with her fellow townspeople, are virtual prisoners when a bloodthirsty wolf continues on its relentless killing spree.

 

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I remember loving this episode and also feel like someone had hit the light switch suddenly. It was with this episode that te show got SO GOOD. From here to the end was a roller coaster of amazement and awesomeness.

...and then S2 hit.

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I don't see why a tragedy in the past should stand against Red being an action hero.

 

It doesn't. Red killing her boyfriend and then bringing Snow baskets of baked goods makes her not an action hero. :) But I'll hold out hope that future eps will establish more of her badassness since her story is clearly not done yet (since I don't know how she goes from fleeing her town with Snow to doing routine baked good runs or what happens after she and Charming go on horseback). Maybe Red learns how to control her wolf and becomes a fierce champion against Regina (don't tell me if that happens or not, though!). 

 

Making Red the wolf plays on old ideas of duality of human nature: The monster we might turn into given the right trigger, circumstances, are we able to handle it, control it or does it overwhelm us?

 

I love these thoughts, and in a different context, I may love a similar retelling of Red Riding Hood. For me, it's very much that it didn't work in the context of how the show has been portraying the fairy tale stories. When the other ones I've seen so far keep the main moments of the most well-known version intact but just play around with the details, it's weird to me to have Red Riding Hood keep the wolf (sort of) and the cloak and the character of Granny and absolutely nothing else. I'm still struggling to figure out the rules of the show's world building, and Red Riding Hood's retelling being so anomalous doesn't help!

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This is yet another episode in S1 that makes me groan in retrospect.

Spoiler

All the potential in Red's character present from this episode gets chunked later. Red's relationship with Snow, her relationship with Granny, and eating her boyfriend were pretty irrelevant whenever she came back later. Her stuff with her mother, Mulan, and Dorothy was all horribly disappointing.

One thing I love about this section of S1 is watching the lives of the Storybrooke citizens getting better because Emma is in town. Grumpy, Red, Hansel, Gretel, etc. It's a great way to be filler-y while also staying somewhat relevant to the main plot.

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Red/Ruby was such a great character. I loved seeing her and Snow's relationship begin and her and Granny. I really wish we had seen more of her. 

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Man, this episode is dark, what with the slaughter and the boyfriend and the heart in a box. I don't remember being so affected by it the first time. Red's life is heartbreaking and she should be pretty traumatised by the realisation that she's been murdering people for years, not to mention the poor boyfriend. Instead, 

Spoiler

by the S3 final, Red's ability to turn into a wolf is just a handy way for Hook and Charming to break Emma out of jail. 

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Red Riding Hood also being the Big, Bad Wolf was one of their better fairy tale twists/subversions. I just wish they'd followed up a little more within this episode. Even though I've seen it before, I was a little surprised when the episode ended without going back to the flashbacks and following up. They just left it with that realization.

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And I don't recall that they ever really followed up on it, other than when they met Red's mother and the pack. But that still didn't pick up on the aftermath of the discovery.

It seems like they're pretty consistent about Snow's tendency to be absolutely sure she's right about something while being utterly wrong, though I don't think they're conscious of writing that character trait. At least, she never seems to learn enough to start doubting her judgment or for anyone around her to doubt her judgment.

This episode also has one of my favorite fairy tales in the real world bits when Henry is trying to help Ruby find a job based on what he knows of her fairytale identity. While I like the scene of Ruby's reconciliation with Granny, I was rather disappointed that she quit the job with the sheriff's office because that whole part of the episode really zinged. I loved Ruby as the sassy receptionist/dispatcher with mad tracking skills, and they could have done a lot with that. The sheriff's office really needed more people working in it, and her dealing with the minor stuff with offhand fairytale references would have added to the sense of it being a real town. I also didn't really like that she decided to go back to the job the curse put her in. If the curse is weakening, then she should have been able to go her own way, and it seems less like she's deciding if she decides what the curse wanted her to do.

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It's especially sad that they later just totally forgot about Red/Ruby to the point they let the actress out of her contract when they actually created what could have been a great function for her, and instead dropped that thread and sent her back to doing nothing more than being a diner waitress, where they didn't know how to use her in the story.

Oh, and I love the flashback costuming for Red. They used some lovely fabrics for her clothes and for that cloak.

The investigation part of the story is so weak. I don't know why they bothered coming up with Emma's "superpower" when they were so inconsistent about it. Sometimes, it seems like it's just something she tells kids and really she's just being canny about reading people, and sometimes they treat it like it's an actual magical power. They have her warning someone the audience knows is telling the truth about how she can tell when someone is lying, and then they have her not even suspecting someone the audience knows is lying. If she's got even a sliver of a real superpower, then how can she even be in the same room with Regina without her superpower going nuts? I know she suspects Regina in general, but when she tells a specific lie, that internal lie detector should light up.

Regina's role was small, but she continues to be The Worst. Her smug superiority would be off-the-charts annoying if we didn't know she's probably behind whatever happened to Kathryn and at the very least is hiding the knowledge of the note that Kathryn left, giving David and Mary Margaret her blessing. But knowing that she's the one manipulating the situation and lying and hiding information makes it even worse.

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Not a favorite but I did enjoy the twist that Red was the wolf.

Spoiler

Why would Regina even expect someone to dig that jewelry box up by the troll bridge. Ruby finding it was a complete fluke. No way she could have planned that.

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3 hours ago, daxx said:

Not a favorite but I did enjoy the twist that Red was the wolf.

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Why would Regina even expect someone to dig that jewelry box up by the troll bridge. Ruby finding it was a complete fluke. No way she could have planned that.

Spoiler

Good point. She had no reason to ever believe anyone would find it there.

I wish they had kept Ruby in the sheriff's office too. It would have been really cool for her. She did a really good job. Plus they'll need her when ever they need to track someone. 

Spoiler

Also a question about Granny, does she even want the diner? She remains running it and the B&B but why? I guess because someone had too. Did anyone else want to run it? What does Granny really want to do after the Curse breaks? 

Edited by andromeda331
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This was always one of my favorite episodes, and my favorite fairy tale twists, and I still love it a lot. Ruby/Red and Granny are two of my favorite characters in this whole show, ever, so its great to see them get some time in the spotlight. The twist with Red being the Big Bad Wolf is still a really fun one, with lots of cool shout outs (the red cloak actually hiding her wolf powers, Peter and the Wolf shoutout, huff and puff) and the twist itself is well done. Although, I do very much question Granny's decision to hide the truth from Red for so long, but at least I can kind of understand it. Its also a really dark episode, with Granny's backstory, the heart in the box, and, of course, Red eating a bunch of people, including her boyfriend. And its pretty damn bloody too. The whole flashback looks really nice, the costumes are great and the snow is very atmospheric. It really does seem like a dark fairytale setting.

I also love the start of the friendship between Red and Snow (and the "Margaret! Mart!" bit was funny), and in Storeybrooke, I loved Red working at the police station. I am really sad that Ruby didnt stick with it, and just make up with Granny without going back to the diner. Emma having someone else to interact with at the Sheriffs office would have been a good idea, and it would integrate the supporting cast more into the story. Henry coming up with only basket based jobs for her was really cute too, and Ruby tracking David is a nice bit of foreshadowing that Red is really the wolf. Emma and Ruby have some great interactions, as do Granny and Ruby. 

So, Granny's brothers were veterans of the Second Ogres War? How many Ogre wars were there? It seems like the EF version of the 100 Years War, can we maybe can some more information? 

Regina is at full tilt smug at this point, acting like Emma is a big moron for not instantly finding Katheryn, and being all "my friend is missing!" when she is actually the one pulling the strings. God I want to smack her in the face with an apple tree. 

Spoiler

Really, my least favorite thing about this episode is the same issue I have with a lot of this re-watch...ALL OF THIS GETS DROPPED! There was so much potential with Ruby and Granny and the werewolf stuff and none of it meant anything! The episode with Reds wolf mom and her pack had potential to add some interesting stuff to the EF (maybe focus more on the darker aspects of a fantasy world) and for Reds character, but then it never comes to anything. The episode where Red and Whale/Frankenstein bonded over having angst about their real identities had potential, but it never came to anything. Soon, Granny was just an extra, and they gave Red so little to do that the actress left the show, only to come back to get a conciliation True Loves Kiss with some unpleasant woman she had known for about a day. Just so more amazing potential, and its all wasted because it wasn't about Regina, Rumple, or one of A%Es newest shiny toys. 

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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So, Granny's brothers were veterans of the Second Ogres War? How many Ogre wars were there? It seems like the EF version of the 100 Years War, can we maybe can some more information? 

I thought she said that her father was the veteran of the Second Ogres War, and if Granny is 60-ish, then we can head canon that he fought in the war maybe 70-80 years before. But yes, the timeline of this show is infuriating. 

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18 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I wish they had kept Ruby in the sheriff's office too. It would have been really cool for her. She did a really good job. Plus they'll need her when ever they need to track someone. 

I remember thinking in season 3 or 4 that I wish

Spoiler

Ruby had been elevated more instead of  Belle being made a regular character.  I think she had more potential and it would have been nice to have another single character not tied to a particular true love.  She could have had a love interest from time to time where it would be unknown whether they were "fated" to be together.  She also seemed to be more complex than Belle and had friendships with both Snow and Charming that seemed more real and deeper than most of their interactions with Belle.  Plus, Granny could have been used more frequently.

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1 hour ago, CCTC said:

I remember thinking in season 3 or 4 that I wish

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Ruby had been elevated more instead of  Belle being made a regular character.  I think she had more potential and it would have been nice to have another single character not tied to a particular true love.  She could have had a love interest from time to time where it would be unknown whether they were "fated" to be together.  She also seemed to be more complex than Belle and had friendships with both Snow and Charming that seemed more real and deeper than most of their interactions with Belle.  Plus, Granny could have been used more frequently.

Spoiler

Yes, the friendships seemed so much more real with Snow and Ruby and Charming and Ruby. She also started befriended Belle and at least during Curse or after Emma arrived was friends with Ashley and tried to help her. It seemed so natural. She was an interesting character and it was nice that she didn't have a true love. She learned to control her wolf part and using it when she needed too. She worried about what happened when she turned after so long under the Curse so she took steps to try prevent that from happening. She worried and she didn't want to hurt people which is a normal reaction. So was her reaction to her mother. At first happy to be with her and the pack but when her mother goes too far in wanting to kill Snow.  She had a friend who accepted her for who she was and not wanting her to be all human or all wolf. She was such a really cool character. It would have been to see more of her. Go on adventures, fall in love or out of love. It was really fun to see a character who was human and wolf. They never really divided into characters who were animals and now human. Or Archie being human again. Ruby was really the only one.  

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I remember watching this episode for the first time and loving the Red = Wolf twist. The part where Henry kept giving Ruby jobs that involve baskets/Red Riding Hood attributes was fun too. This type of thing was what drew me to Once. Secondary characters getting the spotlight, a neat twist on a fairy tale and more of the people of Storybrooke breaking out of their cursed personas to find happiness in life. It's great knowing that Ruby and Granny could stop the cursed sniping and go back to the true loving familial relationship that Regina had destroyed with her curse. I really wish the show would have done a bit more to actually bring home the damage the curse did to the innocent people who were not Regina's revenge targets.

I do have a problem with Granny letting Red go out and slaughter a bunch of their neighbors and not telling her about it. I get that past history gave Granny pause in terms of how this would be dealt with in the community, but Red deserved to understand why it was important to keep the cloak on and could have acted on her own to prevent future issues. Poor Peter would still be alive and Red wouldn't have to deal with the trauma of knowing she'd eaten her boyfriend. Not cool, Granny.

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5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I do have a problem with Granny letting Red go out and slaughter a bunch of their neighbors and not telling her about it. I get that past history gave Granny pause in terms of how this would be dealt with in the community, but Red deserved to understand why it was important to keep the cloak on and could have acted on her own to prevent future issues. Poor Peter would still be alive and Red wouldn't have to deal with the trauma of knowing she'd eaten her boyfriend. Not cool, Granny.

It really wasn't. For one thing why would Red ever think it was important to wear her cloak if she didn't know the reason for it? She didn't really take the wolf stuff that seriously because she didn't know. Also Red needed to know she was the wolf and as soon as she was old enough to understand and deal with it. That would have been better then learning she just murdered a whole bunch of people including her boyfriend. The whole time she had no idea she was murdering people. To learn that the way Red did afterwards? How horrible is that for Red? Plus the whole town now wants her dead. All that would have been nice to know before the first murder. Also, since Granny was wolf too wouldn't she have been able to teach Red how to control it? They never said what if anything Granny did. Even when Red runs into her mother she's angry that her mother took her daughter from her. She doesn't say anything about Granny murdering a bunch of people in wolf's shape. It makes no sense given how hard Granny tried to warn the men about the wolf and how her brothers all die. But then doesn't tell her granddaughter she's a wolf? 

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4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Also, since Granny was wolf too wouldn't she have been able to teach Red how to control it? They never said what if anything Granny did. 

I really thought this show would be like "Lost" and we would continue to find out about the past of the secondary characters.  Seriously, were A&E that disinterested in Granny?

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10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I really thought this show would be like "Lost" and we would continue to find out about the past of the secondary characters.  Seriously, were A&E that disinterested in Granny?

It's ironic considering A&E were the writers on Lost who wanted to write stories for the secondary characters like Frogurt. They had to be told no.

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1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's ironic considering A&E were the writers on Lost who wanted to write stories for the secondary characters like Frogurt. They had to be told no.

Frogurt was more of a quaternary character, so their desire to write for him was probably because they were bored of the primary, secondary and tertiary characters but they weren't the showrunners so they were stuck.

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5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Frogurt was more of a quaternary character, so their desire to write for him was probably because they were bored of the primary, secondary and tertiary characters but they weren't the showrunners so they were stuck.

After seeing their work in ONCE I are forever grateful they weren't the showrunners of LOST.  

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On 7/25/2018 at 3:18 AM, KAOS Agent said:

I do have a problem with Granny letting Red go out and slaughter a bunch of their neighbors and not telling her about it. I get that past history gave Granny pause in terms of how this would be dealt with in the community, but Red deserved to understand why it was important to keep the cloak on and could have acted on her own to prevent future issues. Poor Peter would still be alive and Red wouldn't have to deal with the trauma of knowing she'd eaten her boyfriend. Not cool, Granny.

This is one of those cases where they sacrificed character and plot logic in order to maintain the surprise. They were aiming toward revealing that Red was the wolf at the moment we saw her having killed Peter. That meant Granny wasn't allowed to behave like any normal person would have. I could see Granny not wanting to burden Red with the knowledge, up to a point, but when she's killing people, she has to know so that she'll know what to do to prevent it. The moment there was a death, Granny needed to have told her what was going on, and I think just about anyone would have. The truth was going to come out eventually, and having killed people would only make it worse. Then there was the bit where they showed Granny sitting with her crossbow and facing the door, like she was protecting Red from the wolf, when she knew Red was the wolf. That was an entirely irrational character action just to mislead us about what was going on. It would have been more likely that she would have set up in Red's room, pretending to be protecting her but also making sure she didn't get out.

If they hadn't been going for the extreme shock of Red killing her boyfriend, they could have still surprised us about Red being the wolf by showing the transformation in the house, maybe when Snow was in the room with her. Or maybe had Peter try to sneak in instead of her sneaking out, and he arrives at a bad time. But, as it was, they made Granny look like an idiot in order to preserve their shocking surprise.

On a more positive note, I noticed that Granny was wearing knitted items, and there were a number of knitted items in the house, which you'd expect since we see Granny knitting so much. Nice work from the costume and set design people who remembered a character trait.

Granny said something about getting the cloak from a wizard. Rumple, I wonder? Otherwise, we didn't ever see any wizards other than Merlin and the Apprentice. They throw stuff like that out there, but it doesn't fit into the world we've been shown.

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1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

That meant Granny wasn't allowed to behave like any normal person would have. I could see Granny not wanting to burden Red with the knowledge, up to a point, but when she's killing people, she has to know so that she'll know what to do to prevent it. The moment there was a death, Granny needed to have told her what was going on, and I think just about anyone would have. The truth was going to come out eventually, and having killed people would only make it worse. Then there was the bit where they showed Granny sitting with her crossbow and facing the door, like she was protecting Red from the wolf, when she knew Red was the wolf. That was an entirely irrational character action just to mislead us about what was going on. It would have been more likely that she would have set up in Red's room, pretending to be protecting her but also making sure she didn't get out.

That's a really good point.  The only other way to go about it, is to have Granny in the dark as well. 

Spoiler

Considering they never bothered exploring her backstory, they might as well.  But then, we could have seen Granny dealing with finding out her granddaughter was a werewolf.  Either way, there would have been abandoned stories for Granny... sorry, that's showbiz for characters above a certain age whose name doesn't start with R.

Edited by Camera One

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22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The only other way to go about it, is to have Granny in the dark as well. 

I think they could have pulled it off with some restructuring. Say, have the villagers get suspicious of Granny's family after she tells her story, and Granny is setting up to defend Red from the town rather than defending Red from the wolf (that may have been what she was doing, but I don't think that came across well in the episode). And maybe she's about to tell Red, but Red has already gone out. They might have to telescope events, maybe have one less slaughter incident, so it's right after the first slaughter, Granny is struggling with what to tell Red, and Red comes to her own conclusion and sneaks out before Granny goes to tell her. Or maybe this is the first time for Red to wolf out, and Granny wasn't sure she inherited the curse until the bodies showed up, so she hasn't yet given Red the cloak that she's been saving from the time she needed to use it when she was younger. She gets the cloak out of storage after the first slaughter and is about to give it to Red, but Red's already gone. That way it's not like Granny's been holding out longer than would be reasonable, and Red looks less like an idiot for not listening.

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I liked the twist in the episode and I remember figuring it out the first time. Poor Red. Granny should really have told her. I agree that it was a writing decision just to preserve the twist, but it makes Granny look like a moron. 

I really wish Ruby had continued to work at the station in Storybrooke.

What really was going on with David? He seemed to be in some sort of a fugue state. Was it random or was it Regina's doing?

Yeah. No point waiting for a bus out of town, Ruby.

Spoiler

Wait for the train that shows up in season 4 instead. 

 

My favorite line of the episode: You look like Norman Bates when he's dressed like Norman Bates's mother. 

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