S02.E06: And The Abyss Gazes Back

[RiddleyWalker]

That's actually exactly the conundrum of a show like this, where the overall arch is one specific Armageddon revolving around the 4 horsemen.  (Unlike, say, a Buffy where they can have new Armageddon threats every season).  They can’t really attack and win because then the show is over.

 

So the writers have two choices, either (a) the good guys are on the defensive and get to foil the bad guy’s plans/monster of the week episode to episode and generate a series of minor/half victories building up to a big battle at season finale, or (b) have the good guys attacking but never quite succeeding and so have a series of defeats throughout the season.

 

Sleepy Hollow has gone for (a) while a show like, say, The Strain has gone for (b) where the good guys are hatching new plans to attack “the Master” all the time and always failing.  The pitfall of the latter route is that the catalogue of fails eventually make the good guys look like complete nincompoops.

 

A case in point this season would be when they squandered the Kindred. That “guy” was actually beating Headless until mind control suit of armor showed up and even then was still holding his own 2v1.  Forget the long plan, after exiting the cabin and seeing the situation, here was a great opportunity to just pile in. Ichabod alone is close to on par with the horseman sword v axe 1 on 1.  The last time they really went at it, they exchanged “mortal” blows and “killed” each other after all, so that can be considered  a draw. And then we have Abbie with a shotgun.  In this 3v2 with the third being the Kindred rather than Hawley, the odds are definitely stacked in the heroes favor.

 

Perhaps they can’t be killed outright in melee anymore but hey why not take this opportunity to pulverize War’s armor to scrap metal and do a Monty Python (King Arthur v the Black Knight) on Headless. Chop off both arms and a leg in addition to the long removed head and see how dangerous “stumpy” is then.

 

Can’t happen on a meta basis, so the Witnesses slink away with only a marginal success, but the Kindred just takes off and is lost as a weapon and villains remain unscathed. Fustrating but, marginally, I still prefer this route to (b).

Hi all, new poster here. : ) I was discussing my views regarding the approach to the Apocalypse on SH--the "war" so to speak-- in the comments section of the recent EW article regarding the drop in ratings for SH, and pointed out (as Aquarian1 did) that the "Witnesses" really seem to have no plan or strategy and keep playing "Whack-a-Mole" with the threats Henry and Moloch bring forth.

 

Having no strategy  is no way to win the war and Ichabod (as a soldier) ought to know that. In addition to "a. and b." above by Trek, I'd like to add another possible approach--"c" ---which is the approach taken in LOTR and Harry Potter. The "Team" figures out the weaknesses (or thinks it does) of the Horsemen and Moloch, (i.e. Ring of Power in LOTR) and a plan or Grand Strategy to attack this weakness, but achieving this is quite difficult with all sorts of obstacles, set-backs and false-leads along the way. The "Deathly Hallows" in HP is a perfect example of a false lead while destroying horcruxes was the right strategy. I think this approach would massively increase the "epic-ness" of the show which seemed to be promised  last year but has been sadly lacking lately and may be responsible for the drop in ratings and (I suspect) a drop in the number of male viewers. Perhaps making the show more "epic" would change the tone too much and make it unrecognizable, but I think the writers are up to the task.

 

What do you think?

[possibilities]

I have no interest in the apocalypse stuff and watch the show despite it. I watch because I loved the gender and race and historical/timeshift content. In other words, all the things they've been reducing this season, having lost John Cho, disappeared Reyes, and turned Orlando Jones into Jenny's past role (of being locked away), while sending Jenny off-screen to bring in the Blonde Rogue.

 

In the beginning, I liked Katrina because she was powerful, and even somewhat badass. I kept hoping they'd bring her to modern Sleepy Hollow, and we'd get both her and Ichabod's reactions to the present world through the lens of their 200+ year old perspective. I don't know how they can do that now, because they've not only turned her into a weepy damsel, but also assassinated her character by making her shady as hell. The snark about her sleeping with her mouth open was awesome. Though if she'd had it closed, the spider could have crawled into her nose, or chewed its way into her body through the skin, and that might have been even creepier.

 

I am not so critical of the team not being more proactive vs Moloch, because of the "then the show ends" element and because it's a really big project that I think it might be hard to get ones mind around. But I am very critical of them not being proactive in trying to help Irving. It's like they found out Henry took them off the bisitors list, so they just forgot about him? Even after he called, Abbie was like: Bummer! Poor guy! Instead, she should have been rushing over there and mapping a pathway through the vents or looking for a way to dissolve the spell and get him a better lawyer, too. Instead of introducing a new demon every week, they could be following up on the friends-under-duress problem of having Irving in lock up.

 

They should also be spending a lot more time trying to rescue their teammate than they spend chugging beers or doing yoga. Though those scenes were enjoyable, it gives an air of no urgency and no concern, which really undermines the ride or die feeling the team used to have.

 

What I loved most about the episode is that they respected the ceremony that would free Joe. More Big Ash, please! And don't later turn him into a bad news guy like they did with Sin Eater turned nemesis. I like having the respect paid to the Native population, and that Big Ash puts Hawley in his mercenary place.

 

Since a large portion of the audience is openly drooling over Crane, I don't want anyone to take away the pleasure of letting the rest of us who drool over Lt Mills. It's only fair! I didn't find her outfit inappropriate at all. I love that she wears comfortable clothes, sensible shoes, and all in all very practical outfits-- finally the television world acknowledges that women can be in normal, everyday, no nonsense outfits and their power (sexual or slayerwise) doesn't come from a catsuit, corset, miniskirt, heels, or facepaint. Abbie is my ideal woman, someone who doesn't distort her body in order to attract anyone or save anyone's ass. She can run, shoot, break up a brawl, give orders, and generally take care of business and her breasts don't look like they've been squeezed into a whalebone torture device and I never worry she'll break her ankle or lose her balance. She can breathe. Thank you, Show!

Edited October 31, 2014 by possibilities

[BlueJay81]

Read some reviews before watching this episode and thought I'd not like it but quite enjoyed the episode. It was fast moving and liked Corbin's son. That's a character with potential for development if they decide to go that route.  I think Ash would have made a more interesting and less stereotypical character than Hawley. Don't think I can recall any principal Native American characters on tv, apart from a few Canadian shows.

[possibilities]

There were some Native people on Northern Exposure, but that was a long time ago. And they weren't really the leads, though sometimes they did get fairly substantial storylines as part of the ensemble.

[RiddleyWalker]

I have no interest in the apocalypse stuff and watch the show despite it. I watch because I loved the gender and race and historical/timeshift content. In other words, all the things they've been reducing this season, having lost John Cho, disappeared Reyes, and turned Orlando Jones into Jenny's past role (of being locked away), while sending Jenny off-screen to bring in the Blonde Rogue.

 

…..edited

 

I am not so critical of the team not being more proactive vs Moloch, because of the "then the show ends" element and because it's a really big project that I think it might be hard to get ones mind around. But I am very critical of them not being proactive in trying to help Irving. It's like they found out Henry took them off the bisitors list, so they just forgot about him? Even after he called, Abbie was like: Bummer! Poor guy! Instead, she should have been rushing over there and mapping a pathway through the vents or looking for a way to dissolve the spell and get him a better lawyer, too. Instead of introducing a new demon every week, they could be following up on the friends-under-duress problem of having Irving in lock up.

 

…..edited

They should also be spending a lot more time trying to rescue their teammate than they spend chugging beers or doing yoga. Though those scenes were enjoyable, it gives an air of no urgency and no concern, which really undermines the ride or die feeling the team used to have.

 

…. edited

 

 

I think the great thing about the show is how well they do so many things. The acting is wonderful, leads are charismatic, I love the "twistory", the humor is funnier (to me at least) than anything else on television and the monsters are creepy and fun. I appreciate the diversity in the cast very much as well.  Even if the show does not become "epic", I'll continue to watch and enjoy.

 

I'm concerned though, about the slipping ratings, and I do think the lack of urgency you referred to and the lack of "epic-ness" I mentioned might have something to do with it.  My suspicion is that SH has lost a lot of male viewers who were expecting more due to this aspect--and some female viewers as well.  I'd bet SH viewers skew strongly female now, which is fine, but I'd really like the show to stay on the air for awhile and a stronger, more compelling story arc would attract male viewers while not losing those that already enjoy it for other reasons (such as you and me). The writers do the little things so well, but for the overall story, I think more focus and going BIG would help. 

 

Just my thoughts...

Edited October 31, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[topanga]

 

I'm concerned though, about the slipping ratings, and I do think the lack of urgency you referred to and the lack of "epic-ness" I mentioned might have something to do with it.  My suspicion is that SH has lost a lot of male viewers who were expecting more due to this aspect--and some female viewers as well.

The ratings could also have something to do with the fact that the show is competing with Monday Night Football this season. Season 1 did not.

[Indi]

What do you think?

 

I agree with you. I wish Abbie and Ichy were more proactive, but it looks like this season they are determined to only let Henry be proactive and not in a compelling way either. Now we have Ichy dertermined to let Henry continue to destroy everything in his path, because this moron has faith in Henry and Katrina. The've turn a story about the Witnesses into the Crane Family Hour. How very boring!

 

Last season we had all kinds of different monsters, some of them weren't tied to Moloch, which shook thigs up a little. Then there was the added human threat, the Hessians. Headless was actually a menace. They've all disappeared this season and everything is tied to Henry, a one man snoozefest, as the mastermind.

 

There is also no sense of real danger and the little there is, it's directed to Katrina and I'm like, who cares? It feels phony and, frankly, it's not going to get me to like the character. If anything, it only makes everything more frustrating, because I want this terrible character gone and I know it's not going to happen. Making everything even more about her and for her is not working. Is it any surprise?

[Mia Nina]

This show lost its magic the second it revealed Headless and Henry's connection to Ichabod. Turning the Apocalypse into a family affair was a mistake IMO, especially when the more interesting family is Abbie's. Abbie, Jenny, and their strange bond, their mysterious parents, plus their connection to Corbin and even now Joe are a thousand times more interesting than the supposedly epic Crane family drama. Joe's bitterness toward Abbie felt real, and I loved that. It was painful sure, but real. And I really miss John Cho, and don't even get me started on what they're doing with Irving. That scene of him 'realizing' he was becoming a monster was beyond telegraphed and lifeless. He deserves better.

 

Also, where are the people of the town? It's always empty except for the few people they interview and the victims who are always related to either Ichabod or Abbie in some way. The town should be a character but instead it has been reduced to a inanimate backdrop, and I honestly do not care about the world ending or whatever happens to anyone except Abbie and maybe Jenny. They should do away with the Apocalypse this season and rethink the entire thing because while Ichabod's rants are golden (loved him playing online) and Abbie is consistently excellent, somehow the least interesting parts of the show are the ones on display. I can't even begin to think why that is.

 

Hawley to me is a breath of fresh air and I hope he sticks around. Does it have to do with the actor being Sully from Harper's Island? Yes, but I would still like the character regardless although I agree we need more Jenny and Irving. They needed more allies anyway. Then again, we need more of everything not related to Katrina, Henry or Ichabod's personal life.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Mia Nina

[cynic]

Yeah, I do think the show took a wrong turn when it connected everything with Crane'a family drama. While I loved John Noble on Fringe and I get the impulse to use him often if you can cast him, his enlarged role just seems shoehorned and has thrown off the balance of the show. That in turn necessitated beefing up Katrina's character, when she was already largely regarded as the weak link. And then, to give her a major storyline, they turned headless's frightening guest turns into Abraham's ongoing snorefest.

And while I usually prefer mytharcs to standalone episodes, I just don't see how this much focus on the Apocalypse is sustainable over multiple seasons especially when they've made the Apocalypse so freaking boring and muddled.

Honestly, I was much happier when the show was more about the core four (Abby, Crane, Jenny, and Irving) defeating the motw bookended by Crane/Abby fish out of water or friendship moments with special appearances by Andy and Katrina (and now Hawley).

Edited November 1, 2014 by cynic

[RiddleyWalker]

Remember when the first episode of last season ended with The Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil"? I really thought the show would continue to be kick-ass, but the joke was on me--they weren't kidding about "Sympathy for the Devil." Henry and Headless aren't really evil, just …misunderstood. The Witnesses don't need to destroy any evil to stop the Apocalypse, they just need to get the Crane's (and son) into some family counseling. Maybe they can work things out in front of an audience like Dr Evil and Scott did on Austin Powers when they were on Jerry Springer? With an amicable divorce, Headless and Katrina can be together and the Apocalypse is averted.

[Ravenya003]

I'm guessing Moloch is second-guessing his choice of lieutenants. Emotionally constipated young men are easy enough to enlist in the armies of darkness, but preventing them from getting side-tracked by their daddy issues and unattainable love interests is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

That said, I don't think the writers are unaware of this. Last week the final shot of Henry was telling (sitting on the floor with his legs out, crying that demon-daddy is mad at him), and John Noble certainly seems to be playing the character as an overgrown man-child. It'll be interesting to see how Headless responds to Katrina's pregnancy - I suspect he'll turn on Henry in response.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Ravenya003

[Fable]

This is still one the shows I enjoy, but only from the point of view of Crane still being a fish out of water.  I crack up every time he gets put in a situation that he is uncomfortable with or is not familiar with, but I suspect that will get old sooner rather than later.  Other than that, the story is boring the crap out me. 

 

War and Death have been neutered, and I don't sense the menace I did from last season.  I won't even get started on it, but they both seem like kicked puppies….nothing scary here!

[RiddleyWalker]

 

War and Death have been neutered, and I don't sense the menace I did from last season.  I won't even get started on it, but they both seem like kicked puppies….nothing scary here!

Totally agree! War and Death are only "quasi-evil" in the words of Dr Evil. Maybe they can open an "evil petting zoo"?

Edited November 2, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[stealinghome]

I don't know that I think the show is that much worse than last season, though I agree it's made missteps (though it certainly made missteps in S1 too). For me, the real issue is that they just haven't really fixed the things that didn't work last season. It's that I expected the show to improve this season, and imo it's stayed basically the same.

 

Honestly, last season I felt like they weren't quite sure what they wanted to do with Irving, and this season has made that abundantly clear; similarly, sure they got Katrina out of purgatory, but she's still reduced to damseling it up. Crane's Family Drama was too much a part of S1 in the same way that it's been too much in S2, and the writers are overusing John Noble the way (imo) S1 did in the last third or so of the season. The witnesses are still playing catch-up and whack-a-mole (whoever came up with that, such an apt comparison!) instead of being proactive. None of these things have been fixed this season, but it's not like they're new this season.

 

Joe's bitterness toward Abbie felt real, and I loved that.

Heh, it's funny that you say, that, because while I by and large agree with your comments that Abbie's is the more interesting family and upping the Crane Family Drama to 11 was a mistake, this is actually the one part of the episode that I actively disliked. Obviously ymmv, but I was sitting there wondering just how damn petty was Joe, that his father trying to bond with an orphaned, obviously troubled teenager made him feel All The Manpain and enlist in the Marines out of revenge? I didn't like that being the root of his bitterness, it just felt a little petty and OTT to me. I would rather the show have left it at "you got my dad killed on the job," because even if rationally Joe must understand that that's not the case, feelings don't always work rationally.

[rue721]

I actually like the Crane Family Dramz. I guess from my steady diet of vampire shows, it doesn't faze me that Henry is in the body of an old man, but inside, he's still the teenage boy he was when he died. That actually makes more sense to me than that he'd have matured over the centuries while trapped in a coffin (though I really don't have a strong grasp of the plotline, so maybe this makes less sense than I think?).

 

In theory, it also doesn't surprise me that Katerina and Crane would feel a bond to Jeremy/Jenry -- it's not like either of them have a whole lot in this world to hold onto, Jeremy is pretty much it as far as a direct reminder/connection/legacy of their actual 1700s lives are concerned. Also, even though Crane never knew Jeremy, he does love Katerina and that's his child *with her.* Of course he would care about his baby with Katerina, he's sure obsessed enough with her and it's not as though he's generally cold-hearted and self-sufficient. Plus, now that he and Katerina are on the outs, and the only remanent of their union -- when it was at its best/happy -- is their baby, Jeremy, of course he'd double-down on his clingy-ness toward Jenry. Also, of course he's going to hold out hope that Jeremy still exists (w/in Henry). I don't think that's bizarre or fake or just about square-jawed duty.

 

Also, I think that the show was generally trying to parallel Grace playing nursemaid to Jeremy with Abbie babysitting Joe, which is why Crane brought up Jeremy in comparison to Joe at the end. I don't think that parallel was executed well within the episode, but I think that's what they were going for, anyway.

 

Anyway, I miss Irving (NO WAY that he just happens to be imprisoned with the drunk who paralyzed his daughter. What is Terrytown, literally Hell?) and I miss Jenny and her expressive eyebrows. Why have they been sidelined? I can't imagine that many fans of the show were hoping for that. I don't think that it's zero sum in terms of the family SLs getting explored, though -- Irving and Jenny/Abbie both have really fascinating relationships with their families, so if they're going to make this the Family Dramz Hour, that's actually fine with me. They must be just on ice for now and coming in strong in the second half of the season, right? RIGHT?

 

As for the non-family SLs, though:  I hate Hawley, honestly, and I feel that he's made the show worse by being used to introduce nothing but dumb SLs that I don't care about (like that Jenny keeps this guy as a back-burner booty call) and imo he's been basically a walking, talking "easy button" for the writers as far as plotting goes. It's not that the actor himself is bad (though he's not at all my type, so if they're going for "eye candy" they're kind of missing the mark with me, anyway), but the character is just too convenient. Whatever McGuffin Abbie and Crane are going after in the episode, he just dumps it into their laps, which is boring and also often has the added benefit of making the episode's plotline seem relatively pointless. I wish the show would get rid of him, because I don't see why he's there except that his "business" is a convenient plot-shortcut when the writers are trying to string together some MotW plot or whatever and I guess he's also an attempt to inject some "sexiness," which imo isn't working at all.

 

I agree about Moloch and the horseman being not anywhere near as scary now as they were last season, and there being a huge hole in the show where John Cho used to be...but I do admit that seeing Henry begging at Moloch's feet and seeing Katerina trying to seduce/long-con a headless body were a couple images that I personally enjoyed in terms of spookiness/weirdness.

[savinggrace]

 

As for the non-family SLs, though:  I hate Hawley, honestly, and I feel that he's made the show worse by being used to introduce nothing but dumb SLs that I don't care about (like that Jenny keeps this guy as a back-burner booty call) and imo he's been basically a walking, talking "easy button" for the writers as far as plotting goes. It's not that the actor himself is bad (though he's not at all my type, so if they're going for "eye candy" they're kind of missing the mark with me, anyway), but the character is just too convenient. Whatever McGuffin Abbie and Crane are going after in the episode, he just dumps it into their laps, which is boring and also often has the added benefit of making the episode's plotline seem relatively pointless. I wish the show would get rid of him, because I don't see why he's there except that his "business" is a convenient plot-shortcut when the writers are trying to string together some MotW plot or whatever and I guess he's also an attempt to inject some "sexiness," which imo isn't working at all.

 

 

 

I think this describes Crane more than Hawley. Crane apparently knows everybody and everything. There is no mystery, fable, or long-dead Revolutionary that he doesn't conveniently have either some personal involvement or knowledge about. He just so happens to speak whatever dead language is necessary to solve a plot riddle. He has a photographic memory. Team Witness does tons of research at the library only to find out the Weeping lady was his jilted ex or that he knows Shawnee language and customs so he can recite necessary incantations to revert a Wendigo. The amount of knowledge the writers bestow upon Crane is over the top. It reminds me of Sherlock Holmes books in that it removes the fun of solving the mystery from the audience because the protagonist is a know-it-all.

Edited November 2, 2014 by savinggrace

[fantique]

John Noble needs to be doled out in small doses. God knows I love him, but I liked him better when he was only there every other episode or every third. His hate is painful to watch.

ITA and I actually think that if they must/really want sprinkle him in every episode, then those interactions should only be with Moloch, Irving and us seeing him scheming. That way there is a buildup for when the Cranes see their son. Now it has gotten repetitive and there is no emotional build up. I love JN's portrayal of a childlike Jenry just because I do think that a villain that doesn't see themselves as villainous is way more dangerous. He is careless about the stakes, casualties and consequences of his actions. Also (from Team Witness' point of view) it makes him unpredictable because their strategy needs to be adjusted when fighting Henry Parrish vs fighting Jeremy Crane.

 

I think that Katrina/Katia Winter is the "muse" of one of the writers, hence shoehorning her into the show. Just compare how much Katrina is featured in an episode, verses who wrote that episode, there is a very clear pattern of who that particular writer is.

Can you say which writer(s) you think like Katrina? Because I tried to see a pattern but it's a bit nebulous with only 6 episodes to go on and there have been few repeat writers except for those who are also showrunners. I see episodes 2 (Mark Goffman & Albert Kim), 3 (Melissa Blake & Donald Todd) and 5 (M. Raven Metzner) as being Katrina heavy-ish. I do know the writing team has changed from last season and it seems Kurtzman & Orci are not as hands on this season. It was actually one of the reasons why I thought keeping it at 13 episodes could have been a good idea just so that those busy people can fit it into their schedule. Also tighter story telling.

 

Yes, this is my concern as well. Networks believe in a formula that works, and they will force that formula through (because they know what is best *rolls eyes*), I don't think the network has a clue about what made this show so popular. They don't get that a large number of us love the urban fantasy, the fun, unexplained element of it. I'm not sure that they understand that the chemistry between the leads and among the supporting characters (Jenny, Irving, Macey, Andy and even flashback Corbin) are hugely appealing on their own. That Abbie and Jenny are strong female characters that don't need to be shoehorned into "relationships" Especially not some stupid love triange. Grrr.

I understand your frustration and enjoy the show for these reasons as well. The thing is though, I saw a lot of comments even here on PTV that people wanted these 2 bolded points to be addressed the latter more so than the former. I saw a lot of people saying that they want Abbie to have an LI and equating her not having one as the writers painting her to be undesirable... Which is ridiculous to me but I know people, sometimes vocally, make it known they want those SL and they production follows suit. I like my sci-fi/fantasy because it used to not focus on romance that much. Just a touch to have some real-world components.

The fantasy part, crazy part of it is really fun but now people can't seem to watch a show and just enjoy it. Everything has to make sense and be on screen or it doesn't register as being part of the show's story. The problem is SH is a cooky show that doesn't make that much sense but is super fun and relies on the characters selling the story to us. For example when Katrina didn't magic while in the house, people were like "I know it's because of a forcefield or something but I want the show to say that's why she hasn't done her spells". If everyone knows that's the reason then is it really necessary to say it?

 

I don't blame Hawley for staring at Abbie. Don't rank on him when Abbie is the one dressed to make him look. "Hey Hawley, my eyes are up here." Maybe it's modern times and modern clothes but men still think the same way, Hawley included. Crane maybe, he's just too proper to say.

I'm confused... Doesn't Abbie basically wear skinny jeans, t-shirt/sweater and leather jacket? How is that "dressed to make him look"?

 

I love this show because I think there needs to be more shows that are like Supernatural on the air. Cooky premise and reliance on the main peeps to keep me interested because I genuinely like them and feel like I want to hang out with them. The mythology is fun to think about but I don't think it needs to be taken seriously. 

[savinggrace]

I'm confused... Doesn't Abbie basically wear skinny jeans, t-shirt/sweater and leather jacket? How is that "dressed to make him look"?

 

 

I'm a straight chick and even I've noticed Abbie's fab cleavage. There were a few times when it distracted me.

Edited November 2, 2014 by savinggrace

[emma675]

With all this discussion of Henry being an oversized man child, do we know how long he was in the ground before Moloch pulled him out? Was it only a few years before Crane was resurrected or did he live in the world for many years before that?

[kimberella]

Can you say which writer(s) you think like Katrina?

Goffman is the producer and also head writer (which makes him the man in charge of the show), who has this love or obsession for Katia Winter and Katrina. But it goes beyond that, he's known among some fans for his clear dislike of Abbie (and who knows, maybe even Nicole). He toned that hate down in the latest Comicon, but, if you ask me, it's still perfectly reflected on how this season is going and how Katrina and the Cranes in general have taken over the narrative so completely.

[Sepia]

Goffman is the producer and also head writer (which makes him the man in charge of the show), who has this love or obsession for Katia Winter and Katrina. But it goes beyond that, he's known among some fans for his clear dislike of Abbie (and who knows, maybe even Nicole). He toned that hate down in the latest Comicon, but, if you ask me, it's still perfectly reflected on how this season is going and how Katrina and the Cranes in general have taken over the narrative so completely.

 

What wut? How do we know this?

[fantique]

I'm a straight chick and even I've noticed Abbie's fab cleavage. There were a few times when it distracted me.

Oh I pretty much have an embarrassingly huge girl crush on Abbie and Nicole, so I have noticed her fab everything. I am super envious of Nicole's body. I just never really thought her clothing as sexy or even sexy-adjacent and I see it more as utilitarian, which for me is a good thing for the character. She's hot and super cool, she doesn't need to try to be noticed. That's more what I was referring to. I don't think she is dressed in a way that is meant to entice, she just happens to look banging in the most basic clothes (I love the jackets she wears).

 

@kimberalla, like Sepia I am unaware of this, do you have links to interviews that mention/point to this? Because I am really curious about that and if he's the headwriter, and therefore has a lot of influence, this might colour my expectations and make me sad for the prospective future seasons :(. For now I have faith that they are just doing the divide with one half of the season Ichabod-centric and the other half Abbie-centric. I think they picked it up from where season 1 ended so it would have made less sense to forget about the Cranes until December... that would have been awkward and then they would have felt like they were intruding (or even more intruding, for the people who are not feeling their SL -which is understandable, their keeping Katrina away from the gang was creatively a constraint IMO and she needs to be more active-), big time.

Edited November 2, 2014 by fantique

[stealinghome]

I think this describes Crane more than Hawley. Crane apparently knows everybody and everything. There is no mystery, fable, or long-dead Revolutionary that he doesn't conveniently have either some personal involvement or knowledge about.

I agree with this. I mean, one of the reasons I am annoyed by Hawley is precisely because he is McGuffin Man--but I do also think the writers need to tone down Ichabod's all-knowingness. They struck a better balance last season, imo, between Crane having noticed odd happenings during the Revolutionary War and because of these odd things having some useful knowledge, but also having gaps in his knowledge, so that he had to "solve" the past and present mystery by putting the pieces together. That's dropped out a bit this season, imo to the show's detriment. I think what this season is missing is in part that sense of mystery-solving.

 

I don't think she is dressed in a way that is meant to entice, she just happens to look banging in the most basic clothes (I love the jackets she wears).

also, so what if Abbie looks super sexy in her everyday attire? (Which she totally does!) Hawley's an adult, he can choose whether or not to look. Abbie being super sexy doesn't, imo, let Hawley off the hook for the skeeziness of making eyes at someone whose sister he's slept with in the past.

Edited November 2, 2014 by stealinghome

[shanndee]

 

 

I understand your frustration and enjoy the show for these reasons as well. The thing is though, I saw a lot of comments even here on PTV that people wanted these 2 bolded points to be addressed the latter more so than the former. I saw a lot of people saying that they want Abbie to have an LI and equating her not having one as the writers painting her to be undesirable... Which is ridiculous to me but I know people, sometimes vocally, make it known they want those SL and they production follows suit. I like my sci-fi/fantasy because it used to not focus on romance that much. Just a touch to have some real-world components.

The fantasy part, crazy part of it is really fun but now people can't seem to watch a show and just enjoy it. Everything has to make sense and be on screen or it doesn't register as being part of the show's story. The problem is SH is a cooky show that doesn't make that much sense but is super fun and relies on the characters selling the story to us. For example when Katrina didn't magic while in the house, people were like "I know it's because of a forcefield or something but I want the show to say that's why she hasn't done her spells". If everyone knows that's the reason then is it really necessary to say it?

 

I'm confused... Doesn't Abbie basically wear skinny jeans, t-shirt/sweater and leather jacket? How is that "dressed to make him look"?

 

I love this show because I think there needs to be more shows that are like Supernatural on the air. Cooky premise and reliance on the main peeps to keep me interested because I genuinely like them and feel like I want to hang out with them. The mythology is fun to think about but I don't think it needs to be taken seriously. 

 

I love your post. I guess I assumed that SH was so popular first season because a lot of people felt like we do and saw what we saw. I know thats why all of my friends watch it. I wonder if some of it may be that we are quiet, enjoying what we love, while those who are unhappy are vocal about the changes that they believe are necessary? It makes me sad to think that the show may lose these qualities that my friends and I (and many silent others!) love so much.

[savinggrace]

 Abbie and Jenny are strong female characters that don't need to be shoehorned into "relationships" Especially not some stupid love triange. Grrr.

 

Being a "strong" female doesn't mean one can't still have or desire a relationship. It's actually rather cliche to have these two kick-butt women be manless.  Abbie's character is coming dangerously close -- and has possibly crossed the line into-- to the "Strong Black Woman who doesn't need a man" trope. To date they have not given her any hint of sexual passion or desire. We've seen Katrina's bosom heave over Crane and we saw Jenny display some sign of desire with Hawley but Abbie? She's all about self-sacrifice.

[shanndee]

Being a "strong" female doesn't mean one can't still have or desire a relationship. It's actually rather cliche to have these two kick-butt women be manless.  Abbie's character is coming dangerously close -- and has possibly crossed the line into-- to the "Strong Black Woman who doesn't need a man" trope. To date they have not given her any hint of sexual passion or desire. We've seen Katrina's bosom heave over Crane and we saw Jenny display some sign of desire with Hawley but Abbie? She's all about self-sacrifice.

 

I didn't mean to imply that it did. What I object to is the forced nature of the pairing, and the offensiveness of the blossoming love triangle involving the two sisters. I would be fine to see both of these characters embark on naturally evolving relationships, but the triangle involving the sisters is a tired, boring way to create "drama". As I said before...these two have plenty of issues to work out regarding their separation, some of which could be related to the idea of the supernatural and being Witness to the apocalypse (and move the actual story along).

 

I just don't like the idea of someone as superficially drawn as Hawley coming between two strong characters for the sake of "angst".

[stealinghome]

I would also add that I don't really think Abbie comes anywhere near the "doesn't need a man" trope. Granted something obviously happened BTS to derail the storyline, but we saw her ex-boyfriend for a not-insignificant chunk of time in S1. And John Cho clearly had the hots for her in a way that she maybe could have reciprocated if he wasn't, you know, evil.

 

I didn't mean to imply that it did. What I object to is the forced nature of the pairing, and the offensiveness of the blossoming love triangle involving the two sisters. I would be fine to see both of these characters embark on naturally evolving relationships, but the triangle involving the sisters is a tired, boring way to create "drama".

PREACH.

Edited November 2, 2014 by stealinghome

[rue721]

Crane apparently knows everybody and everything. There is no mystery, fable, or long-dead Revolutionary that he doesn't conveniently have either some personal involvement or knowledge about.

 

I did also roll my eyes about Crane being fluent in Shawnee, they have been going a little far with him and his endless logistically-relevant and extremely detailed knowledge. Plus, I think both Crane and Abbie are most fun when they're figuring things out -- they're both smart characters, I like when they have to actually put that to use.

 

Still, I enjoy him knowing silly things that aren't really that necessary to the plot, like I thought it was hilarious that Crane just *hated* Benjamin Franklin, just couldn't stop with the aggravated sighs about him. It's OK with me if Crane is just ~SUPER OPINIONATED~ about everything having to do with 18th Century America, I like that about him, and I think it's part of his personality/character in general. One of my favorite moments in this whole season was when he just tore into the bank teller offering credit card applications to customers.

 

also, so what if Abbie looks super sexy in her everyday attire? (Which she totally does!) Hawley's an adult, he can choose whether or not to look. Abbie being super sexy doesn't, imo, let Hawley off the hook for the skeeziness of making eyes at someone whose sister he's slept with in the past.

 

Abbie is gorgeous, and it's not her "fault" that everybody is obviously going to notice that.

 

Hawley's not Jenny's property, he can make eyes at Abbie if he wants. I agree that it's sleazy, but basically everything about Hawley is sleazy. Which is why my real problem is that I can't even buy the romance storyline altogether with him at the center of some love triangle (and don't particularly want to, it seems so tired and dull). Abbie seems *way* out of Hawley's league as far dating is concerned, he's just some quasi-criminal schmuck, I can't imagine what would draw her to him even if she were still just the super responsible cop that she was pre-Crane. Hawley's lucky that Jenny is so devil-may-care, and that her life is such a mess generally, because imo that's the only way some sleazy rando like him got a chance with someone like her (smart, beautiful, courageous), too. To have the show trying to push Hawley as a "catch" romantically for either of them just makes me roll my eyes. Especially since neither of them, and especially Abbie, seem like they've got some low-self-image problem that would convince them to get with him anyway if the plot weren't engineering it. I buy him as Jenny's sometime-hookup or someone that they all call on when necessary, but I can't buy him as someone who's more than that. There just doesn't seem to be anything special about him, except that he always is able to pull out the McGuffin-of-the-Week.

 

Meh, it's not that he's SO TERRIBLE, I just don't feel like there's really a place for him on the show. He doesn't add any storylines I care about and he ends up detracting from the episodic storylines that I usually enjoy. He doesn't create interesting opportunities for learning more about the characters (like imo Sheriff Corbin does, regardless that he's dead), either. The one moment when I actually did like him, though, was when he gave Abbie CPR in the library. I liked that they all ran into each other at the library of all places, too. Of course the library would be the hub of their lives, they're all always having to research all this bizarre occult/antique stuff.

 

I honestly feel like this show doesn't do romance or LI storylines well, judging by all the terrible ones they've thrown at Crane anyway (especially that ex-girlfriend-ghost -- what WAS that), so I don't want them to try and wedge one in just for the sake of giving characters LIs. They've also already got the Headless/Katerina/Crane "triangle" going on, no idea why they'd want to introduce an Abbie/Hawley/Jenny triangle on top of that -- no need for all the characters to be in awkward love triangles. On the other hand, familial love seems like it's really important to the characters on the show and I *do* think the show handles that kind of love fairly well, so if they want to go further in exploring those relationships (including with Irving's family, not just Abbie's and Crane's), I'm all for that.

[savinggrace]

I would also add that I don't really think Abbie comes anywhere near the "doesn't need a man" trope. Granted something obviously happened BTS to derail the storyline, but we saw her ex-boyfriend for a not-insignificant chunk of time in S1. And John Cho clearly had the hots for her in a way that she maybe could have reciprocated if he wasn't, you know, evil.

 

 

 

Showing an ex-boyfriend or someone having the hots for Abbie isn't the same as Abbie herself actually experiencing or expressing desire for companionship or even just sex. That's where the trope comes in  -- a woman who apparently has no desires for herself and is content sacrificing herself for everyone around her. Neither of Abbie's relationships with Andy or The Cop Whose Name I Can't Remember were explored in depth while we've gotten way too much of Crane and Katrina's drama.

 

Removing the Jenny factor I think Hawley would have been good for Abbie. As a Witness she can't really disclose what's going on in her world to just any guy and whoever she dates will be in constant danger. Enter Hawley who's totally game for supernatural adventure and can take care of himself when the going gets tough.  Although he freely admits that he's about the money he doesn't seem to be a bad person. I don't think he's "sleazy". He's just as educated as Crane and  has come through for Team Witness several times already. As long as Crane is tied up with Katrina I'd like to see Abbie testing some romantic waters with someone.

Edited November 2, 2014 by savinggrace

[fantique]

Moved to the Abbie thread.

Edited November 3, 2014 by fantique

[savinggrace]

fanique you make good points but I fear this show doesn't have the kind of time to explore Abbie's inner workings before giving her a relationship. With the ratings the way they are another season is looking questionable. If they're going to show other characters' relationships they need to give our main lady some love too and not just have her chasing around after Crane and Katrina.  It will be a shame if this show ends with Abbie fulfilling her destiny as an overused  Strong Woman trope.

[kimberella]

What wut? How do we know this?

Well, he specifically said Katia/Katrina was his favorite in Twitter, which explained why he wouldn't stop waxing poetic about Katrina in several interviews during S1, while he almost never talked about the leading lady. One particular, but unforgettable time, someone posted a scan of an article, where he was asked directly about Abbie and he omitted her from his reply and talked about the Cranes. He has won a bit of a reputation. S2 is mostly his child and it shows.

 

Showing an ex-boyfriend or someone having the hots for Abbie isn't the same as Abbie herself actually experiencing or expressing desire for companionship or even just sex.

Exactly, but then this show that likes to call itself "diverse" showed its true colors soon enough, distributing acceptable plots for the right kind of people.

[Indi]

I would also add that I don't really think Abbie comes anywhere near the "doesn't need a man" trope.

 

I think she does, because that's how TPTB have been describing her from the beginning. I didn't notice it was a trope, a harmful one at that, until it was pointed out, but Abbie fits perfectly. They threw an ex at us, but they only mentioned it a couple of times and it got one scene, one, with Luke trying to reconnect as a friend and then everything was forgotten. Luke himself has disappeared without a trace and no one is has mentioned him in passing. Nick, as much as I like him to some extent, has been conceived in a way that makes any romance between him and Abbie impossible. I don't think it's coincidence, this is written in order to avoid writing Abbie in a romance with anyone. Meanwhile the writing focuses all the romances on Ichy and Katrina with their different love interests. This reeks.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that Ichabod has been getting all the emotional beats and most of the plot since forever. Abbie only gets breadcrums occasionally if she's lucky. She just does her job, rolls her eyes at Ichy in amusement and we don't get to see anything personal about her, not even with her sister in the privacy of her home, of which we've only seen part of her bedroom and her kitchen once.

[stealinghome]

Showing an ex-boyfriend or someone having the hots for Abbie isn't the same as Abbie herself actually experiencing or expressing desire for companionship or even just sex. That's where the trope comes in  -- a woman who apparently has no desires for herself and is content sacrificing herself for everyone around her.

But by definition, having an ex-boyfriend means she has experienced and expressed desire for someone romantically. Further, while they were clearly broken up, Abbie and Morales' emotions for each other weren't so cut-and-dry. imo in S1 it was pretty obvious that, no matter how awkward the post-break-up relationship, Abbie nevertheless still had some genuinely tender feelings for Morales (which, you know, he was a bit of a creeper, so it baffles me as to why, but they were definitely there). And as fantique said, she was trying to reach out to Morales before he apparently disappeared into a black hole. That's not Abbie setting aside her own desires while being content to sacrifice herself for everyone around her. If Abbie was setting aside what she wanted, she would have gone The Noble Hero Route of tragically cutting out a guy she really liked to save his life. But that's not what we saw. (Tangentially, I really wonder who the actor playing Morales pissed off!--because I suspect if he hadn't been dropped abruptly, they wouldn't have brought on Hawley and Morales would be pursuing Abbie.)

 

I don't at all object to Abbie getting a gentleman friend--in fact, I'd like it--but I don't want it to be Hawley because of the ick factor with Jenny. (And also because Hawley is just not that compelling a character.) At the same time, given that aside from her sister all of Abbie's important, meaningful, deeply emotional relationships are to men, I have a hard time seeing her fulfilling the "strong women need no men" trope.

 

Nick, as much as I like him to some extent, has been conceived in a way that makes any romance between him and Abbie impossible.

I hope you're right on this, but my fear is the TPTB are going to go ahead with an Abbie/Hawley romance regardless of the ick factor. I've been watching TV for way too long to think that a former friends-with-benefits relationship with Jenny is any real bar to an Abbie/Hawley hook-up. Unfortunately.

[fantique]

Moved to the Abbie thread.

Edited November 3, 2014 by fantique

[Happytobehere]

I for one have no use for nor any interest in Katrina. I say this not as an Abbie/Ichabod shipper because as I have stated more than once. I was okay with the possible pairing, if that is where the showing was going until the finale of the first season. At that time, Ichabod revealed himself to be a duplicitous liar who was all too willing and able to sacrifice Abbie to get what he wanted and that was Katrina; role as witness and the Apocalypse be damned. So when it comes to Ichabod's pontifications about his bond with Abbie as the witnesses, I have seen nothing this season that makes me change my opinion of Ichabod. So as far as I am concerned, there is no need to save him from Katrina, because I never saw a better matched pair. I know people who genuinely love Ichabod and who can't stand Katrina, but sometimes, the very fate you wish to save someone from is the very fate that they not only desire but deserve.

As for Hawley, I agree that he is being given a role that used to be served by Jenny and Frank. I also agree that a possible pairing with Abbie is vomit inducing, not because of the actor, but because of the past relationship with Jenny. If the show wanted him to be a viable love interest, a past that included anything other than friendship with Jenny should never have been written. Under different circumstances, I might have gone for a Hawley and Abbie pairing, but not with the Jenny connection. Too bad as Abbie deserves to have a fully fleshed out life. Being a cop, a witness and a Crane prop is an insult to the character.

As for the comments on what's wrong with the show, I agree that there is likely network interference. Katrina's continued presence and the introduction of Hawley and the elimination of Luke smacks of a network being afraid of a cast that is too non-white, John Cho is on another show, but I suspect that were he fully available, we would have seen no more his character for the same reason. The sad part is that a huge portion of the fan-base was drawn to and grew to love the show because of its diversity and this loss of diversity is and will continue to sink the show in the ratings.

As for me, Monday's episode will be the first one I will not watch live. I usually watch and record, so I can review things of interest (there has been much less reviewing this season). However, I will record and watch, so I can skip over the special snow-flaking of the Katrina character. I am also 100% uninterested in a Katrina turns evil because of the bite, so we can give her an easy out story-line. Had she turned on her own, or been revealed to have always been evil, I could support such a story, but if what I suspect will come is right, I can't co-sign on this. I am also uninterested in the redeem Henry crap. He is and quite frankly was a sociopath before the coven buried him. Remember, he used the Golem to kill anyone who he perceived as a threat, yet sacrificed that very protector to further his evil plans, nothing nice or redeemable there. People keep talking about him like a petulant twelve-year old, but he was not twelve at the time of his burial. He was buried in his late teens because he was too evil and too powerful for the coven to be able to stop. The fact that he remained alive and continued to develop while buried attests to the evil that is his true driving force.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Happytobehere

[HalcyonDays]

Everyone. Just a reminder that we have a nice new shiny thread called The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow.

The in-depth conversations on Abbie Mills and her relationships with others in the Sleepy Hollow-verse should be discussed here, as are any other relationships that appear on SH.

 

We also have a thread for the amazing Lieutenant Abbie Mills where we can discuss her awesomeness. Thanks.

 

 

[cynic]

I swear I heard Loo-tenant instead of Left-tenant a few times in this epi. Maybe it was my ears though.

I loved the Clark Kent conversation, but totally feel cheated that apparently Abbie and Crane have movie nights off screen. When she introduces him to Star Wars, it better be a DVD extra, damnit!

[Danny Franks]

I swear I heard Loo-tenant instead of Left-tenant a few times in this epi. Maybe it was my ears though.

I loved the Clark Kent conversation, but totally feel cheated that apparently Abbie and Crane have movie nights off screen. When she introduces him to Star Wars, it better be a DVD extra, damnit!

 

There's no reason that Tom Mison would say 'loo-tenant', because Brits don't say it like that. To us, it's still 'left-tenant'. Perhaps he's become Americanised. Poor chap.

 

I have to agree with the sentiment that the best thing about this show, by far, is the Abbie/Ichabod relationship and the fun of Ichabod adjusting to modern life. I would happily watch a whole season just of the two of them bantering, and Ichabod having to learn about... well, about everything. I think that they could lean so much more heavily on this than they do, without it losing its appeal.

 

Ichabod has almost 250 years of history to catch up on, with everything from music to literature to history to politics to TV and movies. Limiting it to a few lines an episode is such a disappointment. I want to hear what he thinks about the prose novel, given that it was very much a new form in the 1780s. I want to hear what he thinks about the evolution of music, from Mozart to the Beatles to gangsta rap. And I want to see Abbie's amused face and hear her delighted laugh as she listens to him, and makes fun of him.

[slayer2]

Just wanted to put out there how much I appreciated the director of this episode. The shots were unique and creepy and really added to the show. Hope to see his work again on SH. Particularly loved the opening yoga scene and the scene in their compound with Ichabod taking up the majority of the frame and Abbie behind him. I can't tell you how many times I remarked "wow, I love the way this episode looks."

In other news I miss Jenny too. She's my favourite character and I'd rather have Hawley pining for her than the opposite. The Mills sisters are too awesome for him. It's just more realistic given Jenny's attitude towards the cause and how she grew up to have a friends with benefits relationship with him and him wanting more but her nonplussed.

With respect to Abbie/Hawley it's way too OOC. He's not the kind of guy she would go for, the integrity is low and I just don't see her taking him seriously, just go there with IchAbbie if you're desperate to give her someone. There's years of story to be mined there, please don't do the sister triangle, the Mills sister have enough trust issues and Hawley (though cute) isn't worth it.

[fantique]

Funny tidbit about the pronunciation of the word lieutenant (which is originally french BTW), the word is still written lieutenant even though the British pronounce it "leftenant". 

 

Pronunciation of lieutenant is generally split between the forms Listeni/lɛfˈtɛnənt/ lef-ten-ənt and Listeni/luːˈtɛnənt/ lew-ten-ənt, with the former generally associated with the armies of the United Kingdom and Commonwealth countries, and the latter generally associated with anyone from the United States.[1] The early history of the pronunciation is unclear; Middle English spellings suggest that the /luː-/ and /lɛf-/ pronunciations may have existed even then.[2] The rare Old French variant spelling luef for Modern French lieu ('place') supports the suggestion that a final [w] of the Old French word was in certain environments perceived as an [f].[2]

What's interesting though is like other languages, in English sometimes contractions and deformations happen. Or they appropriate an older version of word. If someone says "leftenant" very quickly it sounds like "le-tenant" and becomes closer to lieutenant which is probably why everyone is hearing him say "lieutenant" as your ears are expecting that sound. Or he's slipped but that's unlikely since he pointed it out that he would say "leftenant".

[Danny Franks]

I enjoy etymology, and it's always fun to read about where words have come from and how they've evolved. 'Lieutenant' as an old medieval word for a man who takes charge when his master is away (in lieu of the tenant being there) really made me think about the origins of other military ranks. The fact is, they nearly all pre-date what we would recognise as organised military structures, and most of them come from French, Italian or Latin. 

 

As I understood it, the difference in pronunciation that the British use for lieutenant is due to a misreading of the word from an old French spelling. That 'luef' would explain it. And given that the Middle Ages saw a transition in language amongst the English nobility from Norman French to English, it would account for altered pronunciations.

[Indi]

Great post, Happytobehere, I'm replying on the relationships thread.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Late to the party, but I just had to add that I literally guffawed when Corbin showed Abbie the picture of young Joey in a Superman costume...because hello! Clancy Brown is/was like the BESTEST LEX LUTHOR EVAH...and it was just so...is ironic the right word?

 

And agree, that whoever cast the actor to play Joey did an awesome job. I actually thought he might be Brown's real life son; just like Mark Harmon's real life son, plays a teen/early 20s Jethro Gibbs in flashbacks on NCIS.

 

Mison/Ichabod continues to charm me. What with "double jugs" preferable to "jugs" and his "I need to INTERNET!"

 

Add me to the list of those who thinks Henry/Noble is used WAY too much and it's increasingly frustrating that this whiny oldman/boy wins at everything he does. He needs to fucking lose. Or die. I prefer the latter, actually.