S02.E06: And The Abyss Gazes Back

[DeLurker]

 

But I liked "If the kid has already gone big, white and horny..."  everybody looks at him like WTF  "uh....Antlery"

Oh man - that one totally flew over my head until I read your post.  Ha!

[JayKay]

Crane clings to the ways of the past like they can help him recapture it. I agree with the others who said he's trying to uphold his idea of what it means to be a father rather than feeling genuine love for Henry. It's kind of a broader issue for him than just his son. If he becomes disillusioned with his son, his wife, his era and even his own sense of honor, what's he got left?

I hope that this gets explored in depth at some point because there's an interesting storyline there but right now watching it unfold feels a bit like running in place.

[marceline]

Well it's clear to me that we're going to need to do a poll on Ichabod's hair because I feel like this could turn into a...war. Of course. This is Moloch's plan. To drive a wedge not between Ichabod and Katrina but between the members of the show's fans. 

 

I liked the feel of this show better than the last few eps. I always enjoy getting more about Abbie's past. It's a nice counterpoint to Crane's constant Forrest Gumping his way through history. (Daniel Boone? Really?) Plus I've been hoping for a little more Corbin be it in the form of a dream, vision or whatever. I loved that little flashback to the pilot. Abbie was such a different person in the first episode.

 

I'm not here for Abbie/Hawley/Jenny. I hope that their interactions are going to be about more than just this high school BS. If Hawley helps us delve deeper into Abbie and Jenny's relationship as sisters, I'm all for it. If he's just there so they can catfight, eff that noise. As for Crane vs. Hawley, well it's not like dick measuring is anything new.

 

I need for these folks to get Irving's back. That man is pretty much in hell and he deserves more support (and screen time). Has Lyndie Greenwood had other commitments that are responsible for the reduction in her screen time? I'm beginning to wonder why they bothered to add her to the main cast.

 

I feel like this episode had someone yell "Run!" so many times I was waiting for The Doctor to show up with his sonic screwdriver.

[topanga]

The yoga scene. My word. Are the writers deliberately toying with Ichabbie shippers at this point? Cruel, very cruel.

 

The double entendre's were there from the opening frame: A close up shot of a red-faced Ichabod panting "Lef-tenant" in what could have been the throes of passion? (Although I can't imagine him saying 'Lef-tenant' at that moment). Abbie's deep breathing, both of them upside down and grunting--while facing each other? And then the lit candles all around the dark room, Abbie's sexy yoga outfit, the playful banter and long stares at one another, and Abbie's smile when she throws something at Ichabod?

 

What are you doing to me, show? I don't want Ichabod and Abbie together (yet), but scenes like this are driving me crazy.

 

Um, I think I'll go watch that scene again to make sure I didn't miss anything important.

[catrox14]

The yoga scene. My word. Are the writers deliberately toying with Ichabbie shippers at this point? Cruel, very cruel.

The double entendre's were there from the opening frame: A close up shot of a red-faced Ichabod panting "Lef-tenant" in what could have been the throes of passion? (Although I can't imagine him saying 'Lef-tenant' at that moment). Abbie's deep breathing, both of them upside down and grunting--while facing each other? And then the lit candles all around the dark room, Abbie's sexy yoga outfit, the playful banter and long stares at one another, and Abbie's smile when she throws something at Ichabod?

What are you doing to me, show? I don't want Ichabod and Abbie together (yet), but scenes like this are driving me crazy.

Um, I think I'll go watch that scene again to make sure I didn't miss anything important.

I liked it because it could have been read as sexytimes or some kind shared torture or mystical thing. But mostly I loved it for it leading to Ichabod admitting his negative feelings about Katrina. That was critical IMO. He is too smart to not see the shady side. And I do think Abbie has influenced him to take off the rose colored glasses about her. I I think it was an important bonding and friendship moment.

I don't think him saying they need to trust each other is erased by his hopeful desire to help Henry. (I really want to call him Jerenate)

I think the desire to try and help/save Jeremy is influenced by his own not great relationship with his father and not wanting to turn his back on Jermyn.

[marceline]

 

I liked it because it could have been read as sexytimes or some kind shared torture or mystical thing. But mostly I loved it for it leading to Ichabod admitting his negative feelings about Katrina. That was critical IMO. He is too smart to not see the shady side. And I do think Abbie has influenced him to take off the rose colored glasses about her. I I think it was an important bonding and friendship moment.

 

Yeah, I like that Abbie continually pushes Crane to put the flowery words aside and do a real gut check. Ichabod's feelings for his family are his weakness and it's smart of Abbie to keep taking his temperature on that subject. She knows her life may depend on it one day.

 

Speaking of which, how many times has Abbie saved Crane's life by now? When she was shooting at the wendigo I kept thinking, "Honey, how many times a day do you end up saving his 'double jugs' while he runs and screams? " 

 

Also, I feel like I ask this every week but did we get a definitive explanation for what happened to Luke? I feel like he would make a good part of the Irving/Henry storyline.

Edited October 28, 2014 by marceline

[HalcyonDays]

The Good: Yoga, drinking beer in the bar, Abbie getting Crane to admit his unhappiness with Katrina, Crane killing Zombies, Joe Corbin being an awesome character and dammit, looks just like Clancy Brown. The comic hero discussion, Corbin's car! Big Ash! Crane's American accent!

 

Also loved how Abbie admitted that when arrested, she wanted to change her life, but the full reality is that she didn't want to go to jail. THAT is a very honest thing to say, because most people don't have those immediate revelations. Most people want to avoid jail. Love that.

 

The Bad: Not enough Irving, Barely any Jenny. I miss her the most. I did like how Ichabod was at her side when she was throwing the organs to the Wendigo, ready to protect her is something happens. I need more Jenny/Ichabod scenes. The final minute.

 

The Sexy: Ichabod with his hair down, Ichabod in those yoga clothes, Ichabod chugging a beer...Wow. Just wow.

 

It's good to be a Witness: Screwing around with yoga and bar hopping and playing video games, etc all while Irving is rotting away at Tarrytown and the wife is dozing as a historical novel female character would.

 

The Reality: How can I get 55 minutes of episode goodness, and the final minute literally causes me to get so angry and irritated it's not funny. Truly.

The same with, how can 95% of Ichabod Crane be awesome and amazing, but that 5% - the Katrina/Henry percentage - totally make me loathe him to death for being such an ignorant idiot. How, show? How? How on earth can Crane "love" Henry. He knows nothing about Henry. It's the same as if I walked up to someone on the street and said "Hey, I'm your mother. BTW, I love you." There is no connect at all with this stranger. Just the concept in my deluded mind. And Ichabod and Katrina are deluded. Henry is unredeemable. Unredeemable.

 

There is a significant difference between not realizing the killing you are doing (because you are cursed) and being regrettful, and actually consciously going out and doing that evil in a calculated manner. Crane comparing Joe to his son - please...

 

Which is why it makes sense to me that Ichabod is wearing his hair down now looking like Jesus Christ. Because apparently it allows him and his wife to Play God and pick and choose who gets to live or die. So while they Play God and try to redeem their evil unredeemable son (one person), scores of innocents are being killed in the process. It makes me so angry to think this. It makes me even more angry when I realize that whenever Ichabod is in his Katrina/Henry mania, people die all over the place. Whenever he is with Abbie, people are saved.

 

When this show gets cancelled  - and it will sooner than later, what with them shoving their muse Katrina down our throats - I hope that another network casts Nicole Beharie and Tom Mison together in a situational comedy. Not only do they have the awesome chemistry, and can do the dramatic well, their comedic timing is spot on.

[Linderhill]

This may be an unpopular opinion but I'm not particularly fond of John Noble.  I never watched Fringe and probably never will.  I find his depiction of Henry as so much scenery chewing.  I kind of liked the character when he was a Sin Eater, he was quirky while he was around but luckily, not around that often.  He's very one note to me.   Very mustache twirly and I want him to disappear.  Every he's on screen he's chewing the scenery and rambling on about hating his parents and the Horseman, etc.  Snore.  I miss the first season when there were more villains than just Henry with a side of Headless.

 

Hawley, he can go away too.  How ever did Crane and Abbie get anything done without him?  He's had a semi major part of every episode up until now.  

 

And can we please get Irving out of the mental hospital, hopefully with a full on beat down on Henry.

[saber5055]

I loved the beginning, with Crane out of his heavy coat -- finally! -- and in loose clothing and with his hair down. The first thing I thought of was the poster here who said he would look too much like Jesus out of his ponytail. However, I can't get past Crane being upset at Abbie saying "buns" when she is wearing skin-tight yoga pants that showed her double jugs all too clearly, plus Crane was staring right into her front "double jugs" hanging out of her boobalicious too-tight tank top. I wish Crane would comment on Abbie and her indecent -- by his standards -- cleavage. He has to be getting a full view every time he looks (down) at her. Hardly something a man of his era would approve of.

 

I liked the monster of the week. A nice break from the story line, and I didn't miss Katrina or Headless at all.

 

I don't know why Crane is so obsessed with Henry being his son. Is he really? Katrina didn't tell him she was pregnant so for all we know, headless is the real father. Plus, Henry looks way older than Crane, even if Crane is 200 years plus, so for Crane to suddenly become paternal is a story line I'd like to see ended. He and Katrina are young enough to start a new family once the "war" is over. Maybe that's season 7?

 

Love that Crane loves his brew. Back in his day, everyone drank beer because the water was unsafe. Abbie has told him many times that water is unsafe today, so there's that! Plus his "I won" with the breathalizer was pretty cute.

[Iamsweetdee]

Hawley, he can go away too.  How ever did Crane and Abbie get anything done without him?  He's had a semi major part of every episode up until now.

 

And the sad part is that Jenny could have EASILY done what Hawley has done up to this point, well, except be blond, bearded and the haver of a penis. The relationships they have with Crane are pretty much the same (Jenny antagonizes Crane just as well). I find it rather insulting to the character of Jenny and to the Abbie and Jenny relationship that exploring them through the lens of a man is of more interest than just their familial bond. Oh well, disappointment had to set in sometime. 

[Barbara Manatee]

Which is why it makes sense to me that Ichabod is wearing his hair down now looking like Jesus Christ. Because apparently it allows him and his wife to Play God and pick and choose who gets to live or die. So while they Play God and try to redeem their evil unredeemable son (one person), scores of innocents are being killed in the process. It makes me so angry to think this. It makes me even more angry when I realize that whenever Ichabod is in his Katrina/Henry mania, people die all over the place. Whenever he is with Abbie, people are saved.

 

Who exactly has died because Ichabod or Katrina tried to redeem Henry? All they've done is talk about it - I don't remember either of them actually having a chance to take him out and letting it go. Crane says he isn't giving up on his son, but that doesn't mean he intends to stand by and let him run amok. So far we haven't seen any indication that the Witnesses have the power to kill or control Henry. Maybe turning him to good is the only chance they have to stop him.

[apgold]

 

When this show gets cancelled  - and it will sooner than later, what with them shoving their muse Katrina down our throats - I hope that another network casts Nicole Beharie and Tom Mison together in a situational comedy. Not only do they have the awesome chemistry, and can do the dramatic well, their comedic timing is spot on.

 

I think they would be great at Shakespeare - "Much Ado About Nothing" comes to mind.  

 

Haven't seen the ep yet, but I agree with some of the issues this season.  But I still watch and enjoy.  Can't wait for the yoga scene :)

[monakane]

I don't really care about the monster part of the show. I watch to see Crane comment on modern life and Abbie's reactions. Being from Philadelphia, I love Crane's comments about Ben Franklin. Franklin knew how to "revel". I don't think anyone is surprised by that.

[GracieV]

Orlando Jones (Irving) was troll-tweeting the show last night and he posted his "inner thought bubble:"

"I said "Assume I know everything" but I don't know what the hell is going on. Where the hell is Luke? What happened to the Hessian sleeper agents? And why is Hawley doing Jenny's job? Did we need to fill a white boy quota? Answer me!! "

https://twitter.com/TheOrlandoJones

[phoenics]

Who exactly has died because Ichabod or Katrina tried to redeem Henry? All they've done is talk about it - I don't remember either of them actually having a chance to take him out and letting it go. Crane says he isn't giving up on his son, but that doesn't mean he intends to stand by and let him run amok. So far we haven't seen any indication that the Witnesses have the power to kill or control Henry. Maybe turning him to good is the only chance they have to stop him.

Well - it's more about Ichabod not going after Henry guns blazing due to his "hesitation" with Henry - trying to save him.

But if you count the coin eppy - 2 folks died. And if you count Ichabod/Katrina wavering in an upcoming eppy about Henry and trying to keep Abbie from taking him out, you might speculate that Irving might lose his soul for good.

[HalcyonDays]

Who exactly has died because Ichabod or Katrina tried to redeem Henry? All they've done is talk about it - I don't remember either of them actually having a chance to take him out and letting it go. Crane says he isn't giving up on his son, but that doesn't mean he intends to stand by and let him run amok. So far we haven't seen any indication that the Witnesses have the power to kill or control Henry. Maybe turning him to good is the only chance they have to stop him.

 

Death list due to Henry: The soldiers in Afghanistan, the partiers at Pioneer Point, the banker lady, the guy in the flower shop (it blew up), the kid who blew up his father in the flower shop and Caroline. And that list is only from the last three episodes.

 

While Crane and Katrina go running around wasting time trying to figure out how to redeem Henry, he's out there doing his evil Horseman of War thing and innocent victims result. Instead, they need to focus on taking Henry out now, not waste time with trying to appeal to his "good side". The synopsis for episode eight also reveals

that the body count will grow.

 

He's not worth redemption. Some people just want to watch the world burn. So it's best to take them out for the greater good of humanity.

[phoenics]

Orlando Jones (Irving) was troll-tweeting the show last night and he posted his "inner thought bubble:"

"I said "Assume I know everything" but I don't know what the hell is going on. Where the hell is Luke? What happened to the Hessian sleeper agents? And why is Hawley doing Jenny's job? Did we need to fill a white boy quota? Answer me!! "

https://twitter.com/TheOrlandoJones

I love Orlando Jones - he really is us, lol.

The show seems to have dropped quite a few storylines to - inexplicably - focus on Crane Family Drama. I think that is to the show's detriment.

I totally enjoyed last night's episode - up until the last minute. Yet. another. save. Katrina. storyline - I'm so tired of those... just so tired. I feel the show is suffering because the writers have been trying to shoehorn Katrina into the story ever since they decided NOT to kill her off last year and it's dragging the show way down. You can't even compare Katrina to Abbie and Jenny - the Mills sisters make Katrina look even more like a harlequinn romance novel heroine - the type who was completely helpless, useless and nothing but a plot device for man pain. If they play this story straight I will be so irritated - they better have something interesting up their sleeve - or else it's just a bust.

I'm just done with the character.

Glad I looked away at the spider bit - they terrify me. Apparently it crawled into her mouth... I thought it was just gonna bite her... Thanks for the heads up on that.

[proserpina65]

The double entendre's were there from the opening frame:

 

I didn't get a sexytime feel from any of that opening; to me, it read more like a torture scene, although I knew full well it would turn out to be something innocuous instead.  Maybe that's because I'm most definitely not a Ichabod-Abbie shipper.  I want them to just remain friends.  (Now, it's really too bad they killed off Miss Caroline, because that was a ship I could've gotten behind.)

[FormerMod-a1]

Yes, Henry has done lots of killing, but I'm not sure how that is Katrina and Ichabod's fault.  They want to reach and "convert" him, but that does not mean they are OK with his evil deeds or just "letting them happen".  They (broader "they now) haven't exactly gone after Headless either, nor Moloch. They aren't really on the offensive against any facet of the impending apocalypse.  They only seem to go after immediate and active threats that are in Sleepy Hollow.   Now you can debate whether that's the best approach but that is a different discussion.

[phoenics]

I didn't get a sexytime feel from any of that opening; to me, it read more like a torture scene, although I knew full well it would turn out to be something innocuous instead.  Maybe that's because I'm most definitely not a Ichabod-Abbie shipper.  I want them to just remain friends.  (Now, it's really too bad they killed off Miss Caroline, because that was a ship I could've gotten behind.)

Replay the scene again - but don't look - just listen.

You'll feel the sexytime vibe all over the place, lol. I did.

[Artesia]

This episode was a really mixed bag for me. There was stuff I liked, there was (sadly, more) stuff I disliked, but the real downer was the ending.

Pros

• Joe Corbin. Good casting here - actor really looks like he could have been related to Clancy Brown. He's likable, even when he was acting like a dick to Abbie I could understand where is he coming from, because it's tough for any kid to think that their parent ignores him or her for another person. The actor, like many already have said, also had nice chemistry with Nicole Beharie — both sibling chemistry and some potential for romantic one (only in long term, because right now they definitely see each other as a siblings, and that's totally fine). 
• Jenny! I've missed her. Still not enough screen time, but at least she's here more then for five seconds, and managed to be bad-ass in that little time showrunners gave her. I wish that she ignored Hawley though.
• Abbie. She continues to be awesome, in this episode she managed to show her vulnerability when Joe's concerned, her sibling love for him, and more. She constantly shows a whole range of emotions, but doing it quite subtle and not chewing scenery like, for example, John Noble.
• Wendigo story done (somewhat) right. It was kinda inconsistent though, I mean, who, for example, have given bone powder to Squire so he turned to a Wendigo? It would have worked better if they'd established that one can either be cursed for cannibalism, or by using that bone powder. Still, I kinda think that they dropped the ball with creepy factor. I still remember reading Rick Yancey's "The Curse of the Wendigo" and boy, does it blows this episode out of the water. But still, for monster of the week episode it was alright, my only wish is that Joe should have shown us more trauma. He ate his all squad, for God's sake! Also ate some random guy's liver and killed at least two people on the top of that. 
• Ichabod.Yoga moment! Loose hair moments! Online games moment! Bar scene! Liked all of it, really. I enjoyed his interaction with Abbie, as usual, liked his scenes with Joe, and with Shawnee motor club. Only thing I disliked, but really disliked, it was that "Yes, I do love my son" and "You didn't give up on Joe, so I won't give up on Henry". But more on it later. 

 

Neutral things

• Irving's scenes. I like Orlando Jones, I really do, but his story line feels really disjointed this season. I don't buy that Henry could ban his ex-wife and daughter from visiting (well, if he haven't used magic on them, but if he did it should have been addressed). But more importantly — Jenny knows this whole hospital like the back of her hand, why couldn't she secretly visit him? Right now he's isolated from the rest of the cast, and I get that Henry wanted it. But writers, give the man a good storyline! Orlando tries to make do with the material they'd given him, but that's really not much.
• Hawley. Contrary to many on this forum I don't dislike him, I just think we shouldn't trade Irving's and Jenny's screentime for his. I think the actor sells his attraction to Abbie, but I kinda wish that they wouldn't write pre-existing relationship with Jenny, because it doesn't really add anything to story. He's got nice rival chemistry with Ichabod, too (but Mison really works harder on showing it than Barr).

 

Cons

• Henry. I'm so over Henry and his apocalyptic teen wangst. I get it, he's a teen in an old man's body, but he makes Dawn from Buffy likable in comparison. "Boo-hoo, my mother was imprisoned in purgatory and because of that I grew an orphan. WHAT A BITCH, I MUST DESTROY BOTH HER AND THE WORLD!!!11". "Boo-hoo, my father died before I was born and so couldn't help me. I HATE HIM, MAY HE ROT IN HELL!!!". Sheesh. I also not a biggest fan of John Noble, he's a good actor, but he really tends to chew scenery, and doesn't really work well with others. 
• Katrina. Yet again a damsel in distress. Ye gawds. Also big ewww on son impregnating his mother with magical spider. 
• Joe's departure. Joe's departure to Quantico made the whole episode seem kinda pointless. Right now he's a much better fit for joining Witness gang than Hawley, whose sole reason is to, erm, bone Abbie. Joe, on the other hand, has familial ties with both Jenny and Abbie, is Corbin's son and heir, a trained marine, has a stake that such curses as his wouldn't affect innocent people, he could have had a redemption story where he tries to atone for killing of his squad, etc. 
• Ichabod's love for his son. Show, you're not Once Upon a Time, and please don't try to be. Family values are a good thing, but not when a) a father never even seen his son when he was something other then a dark warlock and a Horseman of War. Henry brought nothing but misery in Ichabod's life, and while his dislike for his mother can at least be understood somewhat, if not excused (I mean, couldn't Katrina left him with some magical family?), what Ichabod ever done to him, other than freaking died? No, I don't buy that any reasonable man (and Ichabod prides himself to be one) can love such a creature. Have a sense a duty to his son (preferably in putting him down) — yes, love — no. 
• Mills sisters' triangle. Writers, to write this atrocity just because you don't want to part Ichabod and Katrina and want some cheap drama in the meantime is both stupid, clumsy and cop-out. 

[marceline]

 

I wish Crane would comment on Abbie and her indecent -- by his standards -- cleavage. He has to be getting a full view every time he looks (down) at her. Hardly something a man of his era would approve of.

 

I've thought about this more than I should. Is her cleavage really so indecent by his standards? In his day he was surrounded by women in corsets with boobs pushed up to their chins. IMO, if anything would scandalize Ichabod, it ought to be the way women walk around in tight pants and high heels.

 

 

Joe's departure. Joe's departure to Quantico made the whole episode seem kinda pointless. Right now he's a much better fit for joining Witness gang than Hawley, whose sole reason is to, erm, bone Abbie. Joe, on the other hand, has familial ties with both Jenny and Abbie, is Corbin's son and heir, a trained marine, has a stake that such curses as his wouldn't affect innocent people, he could have had a redemption story where he tries to atone for killing of his squad, etc.

 

My speculation: Joe will show up again when the chips are down. He'll come out of nowhere in a dramatic scene just when it looks like someone is about to be killed. The moment he said he was going to Quantico I thought, "See you at the midseason finale!"

Edited October 28, 2014 by marceline

[DeLurker]

 

Yet. another. save. Katrina. storyline

Just tie her to the train tracks while she struggles oh-so-ineffectively-yet-femininely and get on with the moustache twirling.

 

 

Is her cleavage really so indecent by his standards?

Katrina clearly magicked up the world's first push up bra, so Abbie is positively puritanical by comparison.

Edited October 28, 2014 by DeLurker

[Barbara Manatee]

 

Death list due to Henry: The soldiers in Afghanistan, the partiers at Pioneer Point, the banker lady, the guy in the flower shop (it blew up), the kid who blew up his father in the flower shop and Caroline. And that list is only from the last three episodes.

 

But none of those people died because Ichabod or Katrina had a chance to kill or capture Henry and didn't take it. So far it's not their relationship to Henry that's the problem, it's that he's the freaking Horseman of War - they don't know how to stop him. Is it even possible to take him out? I don't think blazing guns are going to have any effect.

[Elsinore]

So, my The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

 

The Good

 

Yoga scene. Crane wore regular modern ish clothes. Crane's dress in general this episode. It seemed a lot slicker and less obviously out of time.

 

Baby Corbin. Can we keep him?

 

The talk about dead beaver hats.

 

I also think this is the first episode of any supernatural series ever where I actually took an interest in the Wendigo story. Not sure why but it's a subject that few shows can do well.

 

The Bad

 

So Irving has been in Tarrytown for how long now? I didn't really understand why he only has one phone call or why he's still in there to begin with. It's been too scattered to make it interesting to follow.

 

The Wendigo baiting. Didn't like it at all.

 

I'm generally not a fan of shoving All The Characters into one episode for the sake of having all of them there. It makes for weird storytelling.

 

You know, if they let Henry get away with the spooky object of the week it'll get annoying soon.

 

The Ugly

 

Well, the spider and the overgrown goat.

 

[HalcyonDays]

But none of those people died because Ichabod or Katrina had a chance to kill or capture Henry and didn't take it. So far it's not their relationship to Henry that's the problem, it's that he's the freaking Horseman of War - they don't know how to stop him. Is it even possible to take him out? I don't think blazing guns are going to have any effect.

 

But that's my point. We haven't seen any indication of Katrina doing anything to stop her son. She's right there in his presence. Same with Ichabod. Why isn't he researching, figuring out stuff in his downtime. Not that I'm complaining about the fun downtime scenes (I love them). But it just seems that they are reactionary, as to being proactive. Instead, we have a final scene where Crane is like "I want to try to redeem my son."

 

No, Ichabod, you do not. What you should have said is "I'm going to try and take out my son." Instead, as they waste their time trying to appeal to Henry's good side, more people will die, all because the Crane's have decided their own son is more important than the rest of humanity.

 

Another example of the Crane's arrogantly Playing God - notice how they don't deem Abraham worthy of redemption. Not one word. If you can find a way to take down one Horseman, you can take down the other. But no, Ichabod and Katrina have not once said "I want to redeem both of them." It's all about the son son son. Enough. They are such a toxic pairing it's not funny. Only Abbie and Jenny have a modicum of common sense.

 

I know we will agree to disagree, BM on this. I just loathe seeing an intelligent moral character make stupid decisions. It's like character assassination to me, and also makes no logical sense, in my view.

 

You know how Katrina was doing her little napping thing - well, Henry wasn't around there, was he? It looked like daytime, so Abraham isn't there either (sunlight harms him). She can't just walk out of the confines of the house, and disappear? She would regain her magic - we saw that last episode. Being within the walls blocks her magic. Outside - magic. Then she can work on taking out the Horseman AND has magic to protect herself and the others. Instead - nothing.

[stealinghome]

I kind of liked the character when he was a Sin Eater, he was quirky while he was around but luckily, not around that often.

Yeah, this season has done what I was afraid it would when he was signed as a regular and shoved Henry into every episode needlessly. Henry can be a great villain, but he's better in small doses, and giving him a token (pretty repetitive) scene each episode is doing no one any favors.

 

He would be 50% more effective as a villain if he was in 50% less of the episodes.

 

While Crane and Katrina go running around wasting time trying to figure out how to redeem Henry, he's out there doing his evil Horseman of War thing and innocent victims result.

I just don't think I've seen Ichabod and Katrina dithering over redeeming Henry at the expense of taking action, though. Katrina has made redeeming Henry (giving the team a turncoat) a side project while she spies on Headless and Henry for Team Witness; meanwhile, Ichabod has not had the opportunity to really go on the offensive. He and Abbie are too busy running around putting out fires. And also Henry could probably kill Ichabod magically with a flick of his wrist if he wanted to--the last time there was a showdown it went pretty poorly for our heroes. I mean, Henry's the freaking Horseman of War! How do you even begin to take him out? Can you kill him? Because he has the big-ass suit of armor and flaming sword....

 

They (broader "they now) haven't exactly gone after Headless either, nor Moloch. They aren't really on the offensive against any facet of the impending apocalypse.  They only seem to go after immediate and active threats that are in Sleep Hollow.   Now you can debate whether that's the best approach but that is a different discussion.

This, so much. Now, I totally agree that one of the show's problems this year is that Abbie and Ichabod are still in "read and react" mode. One of my biggest wishes for S2 was that Abbie and Ichabod become a little more proactive--it's long past the point, in general, when they should have regrouped and come up with more of a plan, take some initiative. I really, really need the characters to do so. But I don't think it's fair to suggest that they're not going after Henry because he's Ichabod's son when they're not actively going after anyone else, either. [ETA: Which is to say, if there's something making the team in general look stupid, it's that none of them are doing any research on a) Moloch, b) Horsemen broadly defined, or c) supernatural beasties they might well encounter. What's lacking is the team being proactive at all--which, again, I don't think is fair to lay at Ichabod's feet. I'm pretty sure no one has any familial ties to Moloch holding them back from researching him.]

Edited October 28, 2014 by stealinghome

[Pacodakat]

I forgot to say how much I loved Big Ash. The writers have shown that they know how to write characters that are charismatic and interesting. I loved Caroline in the short time we spent with her and Joe is a great character that they could make recurring.

 

Just a thought:  I think they should make Big Ash a regular; the gang could go to him for help with spells and things. It’s very unique to have a Native American biker gang on a series. (I don’t watch Sons of Anarchy so maybe this is common??)  Maybe he and Abbie can hook up?

 

 

Also maybe can we see Abbie away from Ichabod just hanging out with friends or maybe out on a date with Ash (just a suggestion)lol  :)

 

 

Obviously I ship it.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Pacodakat

[savinggrace]

I loved Ash's hair but didn't note anything particularly dynamic about him that would make me want to see him on the regular.

 

I feel like I missed something with Corbin's son. People are shipping him with Abbie and wanting him as a regular but aside from his transformation into a monster he's rather boring, no? I didn't see any romantic chemistry with Abbie. She came accross more like his big sister. Corbin Jr isn't bringing comic relief to the table like Hawley or any other trait that was missing from the regular characters. He's also not particularly attractive which is a must if you're going to be boring.

 

They need to make the headless horseman fierce and scary again. Humanizing him has pretty much neutered him. He needs to be out their beheading people and causing terror.

 

If they're going to keep Crane chained to Katrina then I want to see Abbie and Hawley hook up. I don't want her to be kept "untouched" until Crane works through his tired relationship. Abbie needs some lovin'.

Edited October 28, 2014 by savinggrace

[Yolapukka]

 

Now Katrina? *sigh* Thankfully she was not in this episode, but what is going on in the previews. The writers need to stop trolling the fans, either KILL her or let he become useful. Since her inception, she has done nothing but get kidnapped, provide half truths or just flat out be useless. I'm about ready for her to go.

 

I do not see or feel even an inkling of a familial bond between Crane, Katrina and Henry.

 

I think Crane is more in love with the idea of his son, and I'd love it if Crane is eventually confronted with this -- that his "relationship" with his son cannot be fixed or normalized, and that he cannot be a father-figure to him.

 

I've loathed  Katrina since her first appearance, I think she's nothing more than than an obstacle combined with a McGuffin, she has no strong character and just exists to provide plot-points. I've been open to liking her, once there was something there to admire, but I've yet to see anything to interest me. I'm glad Crane is finally starting to shake off her hold on him given her incessant deception. I don't see much in the way of chemistry between them and find that puzzling, given that I think the actor and character shows a great deal of chemistry of various kinds with others. I think at some point that there will be a reveal that casts her in a poor and destructive light in regards to what Henry really is. I think his existence as the son of Ichabod and Katrina is much more complicated than what we've already been told.

Edited October 29, 2014 by yuggapukka

[DearEvette]

I loved Ash's hair but didn't note anything particularly dynamic about him that would make me want to see him on the regular.

 

Did you notice the chest.  The height.  The sexy scowl.  The Dog!  LOL.

 

And yeah, I am not feeling Joe for Abbie.  Two words: Superman Pajamas.  And he needed an Olivia Pope sized glass for his W(h)ine.

 

Instead of the eleventy-twelfth 'Save Katrina' installment, I wish they would attempt as Save Irving.  I would say he needs them way more than Katrina does.  She chose to stay the last time they saved her ass.  I'd love to see a break-out caper.  Even though i am on board with Frank going evil (for a time) or even if the break-out is an utter failure... I would love for them to at least attempt it.  And who knows the ins & out of TPI better than Jenny?  it would really bring her skills into play.

 

I also don't mind Hawley being a part of Team Witness.  If Frank is out of commission for a time, I could see Hawley taking his place.  You can never have too much knowledge.  And let's be real here, Jenny and Abbie are the real muscle in that crew.   But four makes a  nice number, especially when you have to split up.

[savinggrace]

Did you notice the chest.  The height.  The sexy scowl.  The Dog!  LOL.

 

 

 

Yeah, well maybe if the dog comes as a package deal he can come back regularly:)

[Grace284]

Two weeks in a row with supporting characters I would have much rather kept over that low rent Nate Drake impersonator. In some universe there is a show starring Joe and the ghost of Caroline. They solve crimes.

[beadgirl]

 

I get that some people (maybe rightly so) don't understand how one can love a child simply because it is your child. On the flip side, I perfectly understand how someone can unconditionally love their (hideous) kid just because they are their kid. I see nothing at all odd in Crane's reaction to Henry. Different strokes and crap like that is all.

Oh, I get unconditional love -- I love my own children unconditionally, and will continue to do so if, God forbid, they end up doing great evil.  But I carried them and bore them and cared for them and know them.  I can't imagine if some came to me and said "Here is your adult child, whom you had no idea existed, who lied to and deceived you, and is now committing atrocities left and right," I'd feel very much love for him.  Certainly I would talk of trying to redeem him or cause him to realize the errors of his ways, like I would any other human being, and maybe even talk of loving him the way we are to love all our fellow men, but parental love?  How could I? I don't know him and I never bonded with him.

 

Like a lot of others said, it is more plausible that Crane feels responsible for him, and feels it is his duty to try to get through to him.  And I hope the writers are thinking the same thing. 

 

 

You know how Katrina was doing her little napping thing - well, Henry wasn't around there, was he? It looked like daytime, so Abraham isn't there either (sunlight harms him). She can't just walk out of the confines of the house, and disappear? She would regain her magic - we saw that last episode. Being within the walls blocks her magic. Outside - magic. Then she can work on taking out the Horseman AND has magic to protect herself and the others. Instead - nothing.

You'll get no argument from me. She's not doing anything productive at all, not even any real spying.

 

One of my biggest wishes for S2 was that Abbie and Ichabod become a little more proactive--it's long past the point, in general, when they should have regrouped and come up with more of a plan, take some initiative.

Like figure out what the deal might be with the third and fourth horsemen, and try to get in front of that.  But I suspect the writers are planning for all four horsemen to come into being (perhaps at each season finale?), for the presumptive Final Battle.  Which means that Abbie and Crane need to be given some other victories so that they don't look useless and out-matched.  Maybe have them consistently save ordinary humans from being turned into Moloch's minions or footsoldiers -- stand up for humanity, make Moloch have to rely only on demons.

[marceline]

 

Oh, I get unconditional love -- I love my own children unconditionally, and will continue to do so if, God forbid, they end up doing great evil.  But I carried them and bore them and cared for them and know them.  I can't imagine if some came to me and said "Here is your adult child, whom you had no idea existed, who lied to and deceived you, and is now committing atrocities left and right," I'd feel very much love for him.  Certainly I would talk of trying to redeem him or cause him to realize the errors of his ways, like I would any other human being, and maybe even talk of loving him the way we are to love all our fellow men, but parental love?  How could I? I don't know him and I never bonded with him.

 

What I see from the Cranes - moreso from Ichabod than Katrina - isn't so much love as guilt. Henry is the way he is because of their absence so now they're going to make it up to him by being present. It's also a chance for them to punish themselves. Whatever awful thing he does to them, they would feel was deserved. Unfortunately he doesn't just want to punish them he wants to burn the world and even that is just about punishing them.

[catrice2]

Henry is the worst thing to happen to the show.  Having him be the "son" was not a great idea.  The show has lost some of its appeal. Both Haw;ey and Henry are boring, and Irving should not still be in prison.  Trying to hang in there, but it is getting boring.

[phoenics]

What I see from the Cranes - moreso from Ichabod than Katrina - isn't so much love as guilt. Henry is the way he is because of their absence so now they're going to make it up to him by being present. It's also a chance for them to punish themselves. Whatever awful thing he does to them, they would feel was deserved. Unfortunately he doesn't just want to punish them he wants to burn the world and even that is just about punishing them.

 

Yeah and for us it's just boring tv.  I think that's my whole issue with it.  It's plot driven drivel masquerading as character driven storytelling - but we know it's plot driven because it just doesn't make sense or track.  Ichabod's inane comment equating Joe to Henry aside (and that was a really inane and stupid comparison to make - I hope the writers don't think it makes sense), it is so BORING watching the Cranes try to redeem Henry.  Besides the fact that they are woefully outmatched - I just don't get what Ichabod can possibly say to Henry - he didn't even know he was alive.  Henry's anger at Ichabod makes NO SENSE whatsoever - given that he knows that Ichabod wasn't alive and didn't even KNOW Henry existed - Henry was born AFTER Crane 'died'.

 

Henry's anger with Katrina I get - she was pretty stupid to leave him with Grace - who couldn't possibly have cared for him well.  And let's not even get into the unreality of a black family in those times taking care of a white child - I just cannot imagine folks being "okay" with that - unless they were all supposed to still be in Sanctuary?  But even still... foolishness.

 

Plus - once Henry took out the witches - I don't even see how he can really blame Katrina - she didn't do that to him and she was trapped away and unable to help him anyhow... why be mad at her?  It's reasoning like this that drives me up the wall - because it feels forced for the sake of plot.

 

And it just makes the Crane stuff just feel so forced and just not fun.  It feels very "un-Sleepy Hollow-ish" and I resent that.

 

That's also how I feel about Katrina - if I'm to believe the show runners comment about her that describe her as a blocker for Ichabbie, then it's insulting that they created such a paper thin character for that purpose - as though the fact that she is some kind of Ichabbie foil is enough to carry her and make her "important".  Nope. Unless they never really intended for us to warm to her?  Or they assumed that looks, breathy whispers, and a ring would be enough to convince us of some epic love? Again. Nope.  Not when you have characters like Abbie and Jenny.  That's like giving us top shelf liquor for 55 minutes and then snatching that away to replace it with a watered down drink with a ton of ice.  Um, nope.

[marceline]

I'm rewatching now and I forgot something wonderful: the way Crane quotes Abbie back to herself when they are talking about Daniel Boone.

 

Abbie: Daniel Boone! As in the guy with the raccoon on his head.

Crane (exasperated): How is it that the man who settled Kentucky is remembered by the modern world as "the guy with the raccoon on his head?"

 

He says that line with some kind of messed up accent and it's hilarious!

Edited October 29, 2014 by marceline

[Ann Mack]

I actually like Hawley. There is good banter between him and Ichabod. I think I stated before I am not worried about a love triangle as I really believe all 3 of them have a bigger problem than who slept with who. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel a lot of the dislike of Hawley is based on the dynamics of Abbie and Crane also his previous relationship (serious or fling) with Jenny. Abbie hasn't registered him any where on her radar she is oblivious to what he, Crane or Jenny may be seeing, feeling, or picking up on. I believe in these writers when it comes to developing Abbie's character (Katrina not so much). I feel confident with however they take the story line it will not deter from her role as a witness or sister.

[Iamsweetdee]

I actually like Hawley. There is good banter between him and Ichabod. I think I stated before I am not worried about a love triangle as I really believe all 3 of them have a bigger problem than who slept with who. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel a lot of the dislike of Hawley is based on the dynamics of Abbie and Crane also his previous relationship (serious or fling) with Jenny. Abbie hasn't registered him any where on her radar she is oblivious to what he, Crane or Jenny may be seeing, feeling, or picking up on. I believe in these writers when it comes to developing Abbie's character (Katrina not so much). I feel confident with however they take the story line it will not deter from her role as a witness or sister.

Yes, for me you are wrong. I don't find Hawley necessary to the story at all. As I have stated, everything he has done could have been accomplished by Jenny due to her travels for Corbin. She could have picked up both the artifacts and the knowledge. Hell, Abbie already knew some of the area Native Americans and could have come up with that connection.

ETA: For fucks sake, as soon as Jenny uttered the phrase "I know a guy" she's been seen what, two minutes per episode, tops? So yeah, I want his ass gone. Plus, to me he is not even eye candy, just grungy.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Iamsweetdee

[topanga]

 

 

One of my biggest wishes for S2 was that Abbie and Ichabod become a little more proactive--it's long past the point, in general, when they should have regrouped and come up with more of a plan, take some initiative.

 

Like figure out what the deal might be with the third and fourth horsemen, and try to get in front of that.  But I suspect the writers are planning for all four horsemen to come into being (perhaps at each season finale?), for the presumptive Final Battle.  Which means that Abbie and Crane need to be given some other victories so that they don't look useless and out-matched.  Maybe have them consistently save ordinary humans from being turned into Moloch's minions or footsoldiers -- stand up for humanity, make Moloch have to rely only on demons.

All of this. Maybe they're doing research behind the scenes, and we just haven't seen the results yet.

 

Also, isn't Abbie still a police officer? I'm sure Sleepy Hollow isn't overrun with crime, but there's got to be an assortment of domestic disturbances, drunk and disorderlies, underage parties, and your run-of-the-mill car accidents. I can't imagine Reyes giving her free reign to hang with Crane all day in the storage area. Is she down there during her off hours, perhaps?

 

 

Like a lot of others said, it is more plausible that Crane feels responsible for him, and feels it is his duty to try to get through to him.  And I hope the writers are thinking the same thing.

But why would Ichabod think that he can get through to Henry or that he's redeemable? It's one thing for Ichabod to regret not being there for Jeremy during his childhood. It's quite another for him to say he wants to fight for Henry and find the good that Katrina says is still inside of him--when Henry has already sold his soul to Moloch and become the Horseman of War. Unless Crane knows something I don't, there's no coming back from that. And when did Katrina become a reliable source of knowledge?

 

And please do something with Irving--get him out of Tarrytown or make him evil. Right now his character feels like it's in Purgatory, and it's making his storyline quite boring.

[saber5055]

I've thought about this more than I should. Is her cleavage really so indecent by his standards? In his day he was surrounded by women in corsets with boobs pushed up to their chins. IMO, if anything would scandalize Ichabod, it ought to be the way women walk around in tight pants and high heels.

That was I who posted the complaint about Abbie's boobaliscious tops, and I stand corrected. Everyone who commented on my complaint is right, all those Edwardian movies show women of that period corseted like hourglasses with boobs on full display. So I guess it's just me who hates Abbie's cleavage.

 

Joe going to Quantico was so off-the-cuff. Abbie got accepted there but did not go, so why would her recommendation get anyone in there? I agree with other posters who say that's just a ruse, we'll see Joe again in another few episodes.

 

I don't mind Hawley. He's nice eye candy and I like that he and Crane are totally snarky to each other. I could care less about Jenny or any relationships any of these people have had in the past.

 

Count me in the group that didn't see that opening yoga scene as even vaguely sexual. Mainly because I am SO against a Crane/Abbie connection. I've not seen anything suggestive in their relationship and don't want to. Maybe that's because I want Crane *Mison* for myself. Heh.

[Mia Nina]

I was so happy when Hawley appeared. The only thing I truly truly truly dislike about his presence is the sister love triangle storyline that is apparently brewing. Like NO.

[marceline]

 

Joe going to Quantico was so off-the-cuff. Abbie got accepted there but did not go, so why would her recommendation get anyone in there?

 

I've fanwanked that as Abbie explained to the FBI about Corbin's death and told them that's why she was staying. I don't believe they would hold that against her, especially if his recommendation helped get her into the program. 

[saber5055]

 

Abbie: Daniel Boone as in the guy with the raccoon on his head.

Crane (exasperated): How is it that the man who settled Kentucky is remembered by the modern world as "the guy with the raccoon on his head."

He says that line with some kind of messed up accent and it's hilarious.

Thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite Crane minutes. He delivered the line in an attempt at an American southern accent and botched it up hysterically, just like one of us would if we tried to mock a Brit.

[catrox14]

 

That was I who posted the complaint about Abbie's boobaliscious tops, and I stand corrected. Everyone who commented on my complaint is right, all those Edwardian movies show women of that period corseted like hourglasses with boobs on full display. So I guess it's just me who hates Abbie's cleavage.

 

Why is Abbie's cleavage even being discussed? It's 2014. She wears appropriate tops with appropriate undergarments and appropriate yoga togs. 

[HalcyonDays]

I don't mind Hawley at all, to be honest. He provides a humourous foil for Crane and they are funny together. Besides, Crane needs some male bonding. I would be thrilled to see the two of them drinking up a storm in a bar, trading insults and just being ridiculous. What can I say.

 

What I don't like is that Jenny now seems sidelined. What a brilliant character and she's being sidelined.

 

Thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite Crane minutes. He delivered the line in an attempt at an American southern accent and botched it up hysterically, just like one of us would if we tried to mock a Brit.

 

Loved this to death. Got such a kick out of it. It actually reminded of me of when Daniel Radcliffe attempted an American accent on some talk show. Both of their voices dropped a serious octave. Much deeper than their own voices. Just hilarious and yeah, Mison I think tried to add a bit of a southern twang to it too. Hee.

[marceline]

Why is Abbie's cleavage even being discussed? It's 2014. She wears appropriate tops with appropriate undergarments and appropriate yoga togs. 

 

She also works with a 250 year old man who blushed at the word "buns." It's not that anybody thinks her clothing is inappropriate. It's just that we're wondering what it must look like to the guy who lost his shit at the concept of credit cards. Seeing our world through Crane's eyes is half the fun of watching this show, IMO.

[allyw]

I enjoyed some parts of this episode but I feel like I'm forcing myself to watch this season. Abraham has no presence and is not someone one who I would fear which makes no sense since he's the headless horseman. Henry is whiny petulant child, Hawley is taking away Jenny's screentime, Irving looks to be in a bad video game and the less said about Katrina the better. 

[PepperMonkey]

I'm definitely not an Abbie Ichie shipper either. I would love to have ONE show, just one, where the male and female lead do NOT end up together, thereby ruining the permanent sexual tension and awesome relationship.

 

John Noble needs to be doled out in small doses. God knows I love him, but I liked him better when he was only there every other episode or every third. His hate is painful to watch.

 

They need to either help Irving or make him full on evil. I'd prefer him back on the team, but I do not like him as "inmate at the asylum"; feels as if he is in such limbo. Maybe that's the point, though. They want us to feel anxious for him.

 

Yay, Katrina's back next week. Cause we can never have too much Katrina.     <sarcasm, just in case you wondered>

Edited October 29, 2014 by PepperMonkey