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S05.E18: Point Of No Return

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Dean begins to think the only way to stop Lucifer is to say yes to Michael, but the angels decide they don't need him anymore. Dean, Sam and Castiel are horrified at the angels' new game plan and take on Zachariah to prevent an all out war on Earth. Meanwhile, a familiar face returns.

 

Alright, I might have to eat some of my words here. I usually think of this episode as the beginning of the end for me with S5. Yes, it is that, but I mean it's the beginning of my disappointment with S5. However, I've been really trying to use this re-watch to pinpoint when it is that Sam starts to find faith in S5. Dean's losing faith seem really well developed to me, but I usually find Sam's side of things so lacking that when we get to this episode I'm totally befuddled as to where Sam gets this sudden surge of faith. However, I do see it now--still think it is woefully underdeveloped--but there are some hints along the way. Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid--Dean focuses on Bobby, so Sam has to go take care of the rest of the town giving him some confidence in himself again. My Bloody Valentine--Sam gives into his addiction, but also controls it in the end and probably gave him the sense he could hold out and wouldn't fail again. Dark Side Of The Moon--Sam sees he doesn't need to run away to have control of his life. So, it's there and it did have me enjoying this episode more.

 

However, I still have issues with the episode. I don't care for the last minute resurrection of their bastard of a half brother Adam. And it's not because I feel poor little Dean got shafted and wanted Dean to say yes and be possessed by Michael--I did not want that at all nor have I ever felt Dean was shafted. I just would have preferred they found a solution that was just Sam and Dean in the end. Although, I do appreciate meeting the "real" Adam this time and I appreciate his sassy and snarky attitude.

 

Also, I think the show works best when Sam and Dean both have valid and reasonable points of view--they may be differing, but neither is right or wrong--and they find a place somewhere in the middle to live. Here, I feel like they're saying that Dean is totally wrong and I just don't feel like he is. I think Dean's idea of trying to save as many as he can has just as much validity as Sam's idea they try and find a way to save them all. As usual Dean is more practical and Sam is more idealistic. I just don't care for the idea that Dean is giving up instead of it being Dean finding another possibility. Again, I never wanted Dean to say "yes", just don't think he's wrong in thinking he should here.

 

Okay, the grumblings out of the way, I'll put out there the things that have always worked for me. First, I love that Sam knows where to find Dean and I appreciate he didn't go alone looking for a fight. Sam's not the same Sam from the end of S4 and I'm glad to see that. I love Castiel's entire attitude throughout the episode. He's pissed and angry that he put his faith in Dean--as he did in God--and now he's feeling let down again. And I love that he beats the shit out of Dean in that alley, it feels so very right to me. I also love that Sam has faith that Dean will do the right thing when push comes to shove and I love when push comes to shove Dean does find the same faith in Sam. I've been wanting them to stab Zachariah in his throat since When The Levee Breaks, so there's also that satisfying development. And in the end, they both are back on the same page and fighting the good fight together, which is where I prefer them.

 

So, this episode rose up this time for me. I'm still not in love with it, but am currently cool with it. ;)

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I really love this episode. I understand all of your reservations, DittyDotDot, especially that I would like them to have hit that in some ways Dean's option wasn't as "bad"/irrational/something (I'm not finding a suitable word that fits what I'm looking for here) as it seemed to be, and that the most disturbing thing perhaps was that it was entirely opposite of what Dean had championed before, so something here was rotten in Denmark (Dean-land). I did like that much of Sam's concern had to do with the fact that this would mean that Dean would likely be gone and that Sam himself couldn't handle that, because he needed Dean in this with him.

 

However Dean got to legitimately vent here - no outside influence on his psyche and no judgement from Sam (a little bit from Castiel, but that's in his personality at this point, so expected) - and that was nice to see. And Dean said some harsh truths, too, and they were things that Dean needed to say. And I also love the resolution here. Sam lets Dean vent and lets him have that without striking back and instead uses his faith in Dean to get through to him that he (Sam) does believe in Dean and that Sam has faith in them that he can see things through to the end without messing up/giving in to Lucifer. It's more subtle - and to me more effective - than if they'd had some big, heroic "Sam withstands a ton of Lucifer torture/whatever" scenario to prove to Dean he's changed, and so I'm glad they went this route.

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I have a weirdly obsessive love for this episode. Much of that has to Jensen's performance -- apparently Dean's raw determination and unadulterated snark cover a multitude of sins Adam as Plan B.

And I really see where you're coming from DittyDotDot -- I agree with just anout everything you said. This episode was very much the beginning of the end of the excitement for this season's story for me as well. I came into this show under the vague notion that there was a "five-year plan" for its story (foolish, I know), and I was excited to actually see it through to fruition. So I was disappointed, not because I wanted Dean to say Yes to Michael (although I was excited to see what Jensen would do with the role), but because I thought I was watching something with a specific narrative end point, and I wanted to see what that end point was. But even though this episode had a definite shift away from the path that the season had been following, I don't fault it for where the season ended up -- I still had hope, even after they showed us Adam as the obvious alternative, that they would do something less obvious than a convenient half-brother who was never supposed to more than a one-off character in the first place. (Again, foolish, I know.) So that hope made the turn less of a disaster at the time, and the things that made the episode more tolerable for you are what made it into a favorite for me.

As I mentioned, I loved Jensen's all out performance (it kept me wondering if Dean really would keep his word), but I also loved Sam as the consistent one, who everything spiraling out of control and instead of trying to physically fight back, he decides to use his faith in Dean as a more powerful tool. For some reason it worked for me here, even when it didn't elsewhere. And Sam being the calm, mature one allowed Cas to delve into the sense of betrayal, which really worked as well. Plus, Dean killing his first angel in Zachariah will never not be a thing of beauty.

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I still had hope, even after they showed us Adam as the obvious alternative, that they would do something less obvious than a convenient half-brother who was never supposed to more than a one-off character in the first place.

 

I think that's exactly what annoys me about Adam here. It's not that I minded the angels using him as a trap, that actually works for me and makes a hell of a lot more sense than what Zachariah did in Dark Side Of The Moon, but that Adam worked out for them in the end. Michael taking Adam should have worked out no different than Lucifer taking Nick as a vessel. And I'm still unclear how Michael got up inside of Adam. I can't imagine Adam said "yes" to Michael after he found out the angels were lying, so does his previous consent allow Michael to possess him? In that case, Dean said "yes" also, Michael should have been able to jump up inside of Dean at any moment after this.

 

Anyway, it's not like I hate or even dislike this episode, I just don't love it. But, that's kinda how I feel about so much of S5.

Edited by DittyDotDot

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I'm guessing Michael and his others minions just kept hammering at Adam and Adam eventually gave up.

I love this episode. I still don't quite buy Dean's volte face but hey the rest more than makes up for it.

That beat down by Castiel was brutal. Nearly as brutal as Dean deciding he deserved it.

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Oh, I forgot to mention one of the best things that worked nicely for me here. (yes, I realize I keep finding more nice things to say, but still not totally convinced I love it yet. Give me a couple more days. ;) )

 

Anyhoo, Adam in the beautiful room eating burgers, impatient to get the show on the road and then learning that the angels were lying was a nice, almost subtle, call-back to Dean in the beautiful room in Lucifer Rising--too bad Adam didn't have his own Cass. It's times like these that I remember how the show used to be more layered in their storytelling and they could reuse things without me feeling like they were recycled.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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OK, more grousing. Sorry! I don't know why I'm watching episodes from S5, except that I don't remember most of these at all. There are a few good ones from this season, but mostly...

 

I will say that I like Dean a lot better this go around than I did back when I saw this season the first time. Seeing him so down in the mouth still makes me miss pre-Hell!Dean so much, but at least his emotional arc over the course of the season makes sense. The first time through, I felt like he was being childish and needed to stop getting so upset, but this time it just seems like he's struggling and legitimately angry.

 

Well, on to the real grousing:

 

I just fundamentally don't understand the angels. Zachariah doesn't make sense to me. He's just all about doing his job? Which he's been doing for 6,000 years and is planning to do forever? What's the point for him? Just being really afraid of getting sent to Hell is such a nothing motivation. I liked that Dean was such a smarmy asshole about killing him, though, and it was great seeing Zach get stabbed through the head. And the shadow angel wings are always cool (even when they're on Zachariah's corpse).

 

Cas beating up Dean didn't really do anything for me. He's infinitely stronger than Dean, so what does he even get out of punching him? I also just don't get Cas in general, so his emotions usually don't really make sense to me. Well, it makes sense that he feels betrayed. But then what he does about feeling so betrayed is...to sacrifice himself for the mission anyway? And after working out some of his nerves by beating someone who has so much less physical strength than he does that he has to be supremely careful as he does it. It just didn't track for me. I'm probably being dense.

 

Sam was killing me with how soft he was in this episode. Too much with the sad eyes and proclamations of faith. It was like he was Tall Tales!Sam.

 

It also frustrated me that they kept playing the "trust us! we're family!" card with Adam, considering that they were "family" through Adam's absentee father, who was SUPREMELY UNDEPENDABLE. I mean, that was basically Adam's entire relationship with John -- not being able to depend on him to be there! So that the show brought that up, had Adam get testy about it, and yet still tried to play the "you can trust family!" thing straight bugged me. But to be fair, I think that's a ridiculous sentiment in general, and there wouldn't really be a way for them to play it straight that I actually would believe. Since when does blood relation = trustworthy? Those things have nothing to do with each other.

 

The thing that I straight up hated:  Bobby and his round that he's not going to put in his head at this second, because he promised Sam and Dean he wouldn't. Such a drama queen. And later on, him telling Sam, "don't take that tone with me, boy," like Sam is seven years old. What next, is he going to start saying things like:  "Don't make me get my belt" or "Do you want Castiel to see you get a whipping?" LOL COME THE FUCK ON.

 

Things too good to grouse about:

 

What an asshole Adam was. I actually really liked real!Adam, he had such a sharp tongue. And I liked how self-righteous he got about seeing his mom again. This episode also made me happy that the guys had dealt with all their $dramz about John having this other kid and occasionally even seeing him in a previous episode, so that Adam himself didn't have to deal with that. Kind of ridiculous to be happy that real!Adam was murdered by a ghoul and therefore didn't have to put up with brotherly angst, but I think that that angst would have driven real!Adam around the bend.

 

Dean at the beginning of the episode. I liked how orderly he was in preparing for his suicide. Folding his clothes, writing a five paragraph essay of a suicide note in very neat longhand, having his drink. I liked how it felt ceremonial sort of, but not melodramatic. And I liked that when Sam came and got him, Sam wasn't melodramatic about it, either.

 

That creepy little playhouse in that warehouse in Van Nuys. That thing was spooky.

 

Dean when he decided that he was going to get out of that cell at Bobby's house. He was so determined. I'm not sure how I feel about Sam's reaction to that whole speech about how Dean doesn't believe in him, though. Did Sam *expect* Dean to believe in him? Obviously Dean wasn't going to. Since he's gone to Hell, when has he? Idk, it didn't make sense to me. And also, since Sam's faith in *himself* didn't seem to waver, it seems strange to me that he didn't argue with Dean at all or get angry, or anything like that. He just cried and asked Dean to stop. Idk, I really didn't like Sam all through this episode, though.

 

YMMV, but I actually prefer Sam in S4 to Sam in S5. Sam in S4 was obnoxious and selfish, but he had some spirit. Sam in S5 seems like he's crying all the time and has no personal pride or dignity. I get why that is, theoretically, but the result is that in all these S5 episodes, I'm getting so impatient with Sam. This is a season I didn't watch in real time iIrc, I stopped watching the show for a while there, and then tuned in for S6 to see how the new showrunner would change things. And I'm remembering why I stopped -- the characters just became so unlikable to me. At least this time around, Dean is interesting and fine, even if Sam's still a sodden mess.

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I have such a weird relationship with this episode. I like so many parts of it, but then I hate it in the end.

 

1) It introduces the other vessel bullshit nullifying the arc they spent 2.5 years building up for Dean.

2) Dean's speech to Sam when he's locked up.  I fucking hated him saying he would have let Sam rot. BULLSHIT.  False equivalency. Sam was drinking demon blood and no one knew what that was doing to him except making him seriously dangerous to himself and others. Sam's judgement couldn't be trusted because of the demon blood factor.  I don't think Dean was making a decision out of severe depression with no thought given to it, but a conscious decision to try and save at least some people and because he was just fucking tired of fighting.

3) Hated Bobby being all "I'm not killing myself because I told you I wouldn't give up".  Okay maybe I missed something but I never thought Bobby was suicidal over not being able to walk. I thought that was kind of a retcon to make Dean look weak. I really didn't mind Dean telling Bobby he wasn't his father.  But Bobby has bugged me since the Boo hoo princess speech sooooo I hold a grudge.

 

I go back and forth whether this really was Dean's last minute improvisation and change of heart or a ruse all along so he had to be a jerk to push Bobby, Sam and Cas away from him so they would buy he was going to say yes to Michael and the same with him going to see Lisa. Or maybe he really was planning to say yes, but when Adam was pulled into the mix it just solidified his plan but more that he wasn't going to let Adam die for him.  And seeing Sam being so destroyed he did change his mind. 

 

Bleh. I dunno what I think. But I loved Jensen's performance throughout the episode and loved him stabbing Zachariah in the face like he said he would in s4.

Edited by catrox14

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Hated Bobby being all "I'm not killing myself because I told you I wouldn't give up".  Okay maybe I missed something but I never thought Bobby was suicidal over not being able to walk.

 

They mentioned it in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester, Bobby says he's useless and might as well be dead. Dean tells him he never wants to hear that again and they need him. Bobby seems to agree to not off himself for Dean. Also, I got the impression more from Jim Beaver's mannerisms all season. The way he looked so lonely and lost after Sam calls him in Free To Be You And Me and at the end of Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid he seems pretty broken to me. However, I think Jim Beaver may have been too on-the-nose in this episode. I think it walks the line of being too far for me. I do get what they were doing with it though, so I kinda ignore it, but then I don't really care for this episode overall anyway.

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I just think it's a bullshit thing to say altogether, I don't care if Bobby thinks it's true or not. Who does he think he is, to be laying the responsibility for whether he lives or dies at someone else's feet? Take responsibility for your own choices, Bobby. You want to live, live. You want to die, die. Fuck off with the "this round would be in my head, except that I have to be here on earth to keep helping YOU" guilt trip. I was glad when Dean got cold with him and told him he wasn't his father.

 

But tbh I liked how bitchy, bitter, and cold Dean was through most of the episode. How he was feeling made sense imo. He had the most comprehensible and relatable emotional arc out of all of them in this episode imo.

 

Also, I got a kick out of how he and Adam just seemed like two peas in a pod at times, in terms of their attitude/behavior.

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Since when does blood relation = trustworthy? Those things have nothing to do with each other.

When the alternative is trusting Zachariah? Seriously, they may have been exaggerating but they were desperate, and compared to Zach almost anybody is trustworthy. Unfortunately Adam was too stuck on the "but they're angels" band wagon to see it.

 

And also, since Sam's faith in *himself* didn't seem to waver, it seems strange to me that he didn't argue with Dean at all or get angry, or anything like that. He just cried and asked Dean to stop.

 

Do you mean Sam's faith in himself didn't waiver in this episode or in general? Actually I think I disagree with both. I think Sam was hoping that Dean would see the light - i.e. that he and Bobby and Castiel were not going to give up so see we can all do this together, and you can forget all that sacrificing yourself stuff now. Except it didn't work and Sam had to regroup for a moment. (More on that later.) Besides I might be forgetting something, but when has Sam's getting angry with Dean and having a yelling argument with him ever actually worked as a strategy? (The ultimate example for me being their fight in when "When the Levee Breaks.") I've seen the argument that Sam somehow always gets his way with Dean, but in general, I don't think that's true. More often than not, they fight, Dean doesn't relent, and Sam ends up storming off... and then Sam's the one to come back or is the one asking to come back, because Dean still won't relent. Sometimes it takes some monumental act - like Zach's future world - to change Dean's mind. One of the notable times Dean relented (the end of season 4)... well we know how badly that turned out. And it also had nothing to do with Sam's yelling and fighting back strategy. Again it was external forces that got Dean to change his mind - not Sam.

 

Or it takes the "soft" approach. Example: in season 3 Sam wants Dean to fight back, to want to live. He tries getting angry at him with how can Sam save him if Dean doesn't want to be saved? Asks him somewhat angrily if Dean thinks that little of himself... What eventually works? A heartfelt "I just want my brother back." He took a similar approach successfully in "Fallen Idols" to get Dean to see that his "double-secret probation" treatment was affecting their work on the case, because he did it without yelling and by making some concessions that he messed up himself.

 

Also in this episode, as you said, Dean's mind was made up. He was going to escape and he was going to say "yes." No amount of Castiel's glaring, yelling, or hitting or Bobby's blustering was going to change that. What did work? Sam's "you may not have faith / trust in me, but I have faith / trust in you" approach. You may see it as weak, but I saw it as brilliant - appeal to Dean's sense of honor. That Sam actually believed it and believed in Dean just helped even more to sell it. As Dean told Sam in the car later - how could Dean disappoint Sam after that?

 

Did Sam *expect* Dean to believe in him? Obviously Dean wasn't going to. Since he's gone to Hell, when has he? Idk, it didn't make sense to me.

 

I don't know. I think maybe Sam thought Dean might have a little faith in him after "My Bloody Valentine" and how he resisted Famine's offer. I think for Sam, that was a big moment for him in terms of his confidence. He was likely surprised that Dean didn't feel the same way. Sure there were the the problems with "Dark Side..." but that had to do with family, not having faith in Sam per se - at least for Sam.

 

YMMV, but I actually prefer Sam in S4 to Sam in S5. Sam in S4 was obnoxious and selfish, but he had some spirit. Sam in S5 seems like he's crying all the time and has no personal pride or dignity. I get why that is, theoretically, but the result is that in all these S5 episodes, I'm getting so impatient with Sam.

 

Our miles definitely vary here. I thought that Sam had less spirit and was much more broken in season 4. It's one of the reasons that Ruby was able to manipulate him so much. Sam thought so little of himself that he didn't care that he was becoming a monster and basically committing suicide as long as he was at least able to get his revenge. He lied, fooled himself into thinking Dean was the messed up one, and barreled headlong into oblivion.

 

At least Sam in season 5 had a goal - to fix his mistakes and show Dean he could be trusted again - and showed conviction multiple times in the face of temptation to face down his demons and try to get the job done. Sure he admitted that he couldn't do it without Dean and that he needed Dean's support, but I didn't see that as a weakness myself that he was admitting it. I saw it as realistic. Sam literally couldn't do it without Dean, because if Dean wasn't on his / their side, their whole plan wouldn't work. if Dean gave up on their plan and said "yes" to Michael, even if Sam kept his side of it and didn't say "yes", there was still potentially gonna end up being a big boom to fry half the planet's population as far as they knew. Sam could have all the faith in the world in himself, but  that still wouldn't help the situation at hand. At that point in the game there was no other plan.

 

I've seen arguments that Sam should've had more faith in Dean's plan to say "yes" to Michael, and that Dean could've overpowered Michael, but at this point in the game, that wasn't even an option. Saying "yes" meant potentially half the population getting fried. That was the only option they knew here.

 

So basically I saw season 4 Sam as the mess and season 5 Sam as sometimes messed up but still determined to fix his mistake and to show Dean that he wouldn't let him down again (as Sam promised in "The End") not to mention fighting his addiction... and strategizing on how to get that done. And if that required compromise and his holding back on blowing up on his part and being a little humble and low key or admitting when he needed help, so be it. And in my opinion, that takes more conviction and inner strength than lying, deluding yourself, letting a demon whisper in your ear, getting addicted to demon blood, and deciding to go on a suicide mission.

 

But as you said, miles vary.

 

Fuck off with the "this round would be in my head, except that I have to be here on earth to keep helping YOU" guilt trip.

 

I thought Bobby was saying that he didn't shoot himself because he was keeping his word to Dean like he promised. I didn't think it had anything to do with staying around to help out * because at this point Bobby felt worthless.

 

* That was season 7 and ghost Bobby.

 

Sam was drinking demon blood and no one knew what that was doing to him except making him seriously dangerous to himself and others. Sam's judgement couldn't be trusted because of the demon blood factor.  I don't think Dean was making a decision out of severe depression with no thought given to it, but a conscious decision to try and save at least some people and because he was just fucking tired of fighting.

 

I'm not seeing as much difference here as you are I guess. For me, the only real difference here is that leaving Sam in the panic room would keep him from becoming a monster to achieve his goal, but both thought they were doing something that would save some people. They did know that Sam's blood was potentially doing something. He could kill demons and he might kill Lilith who he thought was going to break the final seal, because that's what he'd been told.

 

They both also happened to be making potentially dangerous decisions. There wasn't even a guarantee that if the angels won, half the people would live. That was just the best case scenario. The angels also wanted "paradise on earth" or whatever it was. Who is to say that would end up well for the rest of the people even left. I wouldn't call the angels exactly reliable on that. And I'd rather not think that Dean was just "tired of fighting." He lambasted Gabriel for something very similar in "Changing Channels"

 

Besides Dean isn't always a reliable narrator, and he did say that he would rather that Sam die than become a monster. To Dean that might equal "letting Sam rot."

Edited by AwesomO4000

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When the alternative is trusting Zachariah?

 

You've said things like this before, as though the only options are to trust *someone* out of the people involved, and that trusting nobody isn't an option. Of course trusting nobody is an option, it's the default option.

 

What was going on with both Zach and the Winchesters when it came to Adam was that they were trying to close what was essentially a business deal. But despite that, both sides kept appealing to Adam's emotion. Irritating imo. Have none of them heard of things like "half up front, half when the job is finished"? Putting cash in escrow? There are ways of at least *somewhat* compelling cooperation from both parties in a deal. But instead of anyone suggesting any scenario in which cooperation wasn't purely just based on some gentleman's agreement or heartfelt trust or whatever, and instead of Adam actually thinking things through for himself, the whole thing was some kind of stupid-ass popularity contest and sodden angst fest. Idiocy imo.

 

But I hated, *hated* the crushingly heavy metaphor for the angels as "brothers" and the whole thing as a "family dispute" or whatever. WTF no. It was a landgrab by Lucifer. They needed an Emperor Napoleon in their corner, not a King Solomon.

 

Here as you said, in this episode, Dean's mind was made up. he was going to escape and he was going to say "yes." No amount of Castiel's yelling and hitting or Bobby's blustering was going to change that. What did work? Sam's "you may not have faith / trust in me, but I have faith / trust in you" approach. You may see it as weak, but I saw it as brilliant - appeal to Dean's sense of honor. As Dean told Sam in the car later - how could Dean let Sam down after that?

 

Manipulative rather than brilliant imo. It's exactly what Crowley does, too. Play weak, the other person lets his guard down, go in for the kill. It does often work but there's no dignity in it imo. And I don't even think Sam meant to be manipulative, he just cried and begged to get his way on instinct/impulse. Just so completely off-putting to me.

 

Our miles definitely vary here. I thought that Sam had less spirit and was much more broken in season 4. It's one of the reasons that Ruby was able to manipulate him so much. Sam thought so little of himself that he didn't care that he was becoming a monster and basically committing suicide as long as he was at least able to get his revenge. He lied, fooled himself into thinking Dean was the messed up one, and barreled headlong into oblivion.

 

Dean *was* the messed up one -- he'd just come from Hell -- and Sam was acting like a selfish prick. He'd just come off of this gigantic failure by seeing Dean go to Hell (and not being able to get him out), had found out what his limits were because of it, and was trying to push them further (through drinking the demon blood) in order to do what he needed to do. It's nasty that he was just going to town on demons' veins, and he just generally was a pain in the ass that season, but I honestly just didn't give a flying fuck about him drinking the blood in terms of the powers it was giving him. If he wants to drink the blood, sure, he should drink the blood! Whatever he wants to do, I guess. I still don't see how that was even harmful to him. It probably would have been more physically dangerous if he'd just been drinking regular old alcohol. Letting Ruby lead him around by the nose was what I thought was stupid and horrible, and a lot of his other specific decisions were stupid and horrible, too (murdering that nurse?!!), but that was all Sam. Drugs don't give you a personality transplant, and it didn't seem like demon blood gave Sam one, either.

 

Anyway, the reason that I expected Dean not to believe in Sam from the end of S3 on, was because if Sam couldn't save Dean from Hell (even with help from Dean et al), how could he save the whole freaking *world* from Hell (even with help from Dean et al)?

 

Honestly, aside from what happened in S4 -- I would expect Dean to have a lot of trouble trusting Sam after Sam didn't save him from his deal. Not that that's rational exactly, but getting let down like that has got to be terrifying and I can't *imagine* feeling OK trusting that same person with my well-being again***. Let alone the well-being of *everyone.*

 

***Or honestly, trusting *anyone* with my well-being again. Which is why I always thought it was stupid when Sam would be like, "you don't trust anyone but yourself!" Uh, yeah. Of course he doesn't. I bet he doesn't even trust himself all that much, tbh. Anyway. Not episode-specific in the least, so that's off-topic I guess.

 

And if that required compromise and his holding back on blowing up on his part and being a little humble and low key or admitting when he needed help, so be it. And in my opinion, that takes more conviction and inner strength than lying, deluding yourself, letting a demon whisper in your ear, getting addicted to demon blood, and deciding to go on a suicide mission.

 

Sam didn't compromise and he wasn't low key. He literally cried until he got his way.

 

I think they were going for what you saw in those kinds of scenes, but I just found Sam irritating and childish.

 

And honestly, the plan of saying yes to Michael *did* make more sense than the one of Sam saying yes to Lucifer or whatever the hell else they were trying to sell. But the angels apparently decided that the best defense is a good offense, and threatened to use Adam and demolish Dean's leverage -- and TFW spent *so long* hemming and hawing over how to respond to that that they ended up having their hand forced and not really being able to respond coherently at all. Jeez, I disliked TFW. They don't work well as a team at all.

 

I thought Bobby was saying that he didn't shoot himself because he was keeping his word to Dean like he promised. I didn't think it had anything to do with staying around to help out * because at this point Bobby felt worthless.

 

* That was season 7 and ghost Bobby.

 

Tomato, tawmato. More guilt tripping and manipulation imo. I was glad that at least coming from Bobby, it didn't work. And that Dean straight up said that it was because Bobby isn't actually his father. LOL.

 

Just like Adam isn't *actually* his brother -- which Adam kept saying through the whole episode, too -- and look at how much the supposed ~bonds of brotherly love/guilt~ did to help Adam in the end, too.

Edited by rue721
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You've said things like this before, as though the only options are to trust *someone* out of the people involved, and that trusting nobody isn't an option. Of course trusting nobody is an option, it's the default option.

Adam could either trust Zachariah and say "yes" or trust Sam and Dean and say "no." What other option was there?

 

Manipulative rather than brilliant imo.

 

In my opinion, it's manipulative if you don't believe it. As I ended up adding above, Sam did believe it. Besides that still doesn't change the fact that Sam "sticking up for himself" hardly ever works in his favor. Yelling at Dean like Bobby and Cas did likely would have gotten him just as far as it did them.

 

And honestly, the plan of saying yes to Michael *did* make more sense than the one of Sam saying yes to Lucifer or whatever the hell else they were trying to sell.

 

Maybe to you it did, but not to me. There was absolutely no guarantee that the angels would let the remaining people have earth. They wanted "paradise" on it, and angels like Zachariah's idea of paradise likely didn't include humans. There would just as likely end up being an angel civil war over the planet with the people in the crossfire. I didn't trust the angels one damn bit, and I thought that Dean trusting them was a sign that he'd lost some of his sense. And yes, I think that was the angels' goal, because why else would they go through the trouble of raising Lucifer in the first place? If they just wanted status quo, they would've left Lucifer in his cage where he was and gone on happily in heaven. Nope, there was a reason they helped raise Lucifer so they could destroy him, and it wasn't so the remaining humanity could live happily ever after as they were before. Not remotely, in my opinion.

 

The way to win was to not go along with the angels' plan, not rush into the apocalypse with open arms.

 

Sam didn't compromise and he wasn't low key. He literally cried until he got his way.

 

I was talking about the season in general. Sam didn't cry in "Fallen Idols." He just didn't come down to Dean's level with insults. And he didn't cry to get his way here either - he left the room to think it over and consider a different strategy. Dean still had no intention of giving in at that point. He also didn't cry - or give up at the end of "Dark Side of the Moon," even though Dean tried his best to break Sam's resolve. And when Dean ran off, Sam ran after him and brought reinforcements.

 

Drugs don't give you a personality transplant, and it didn't seem like demon blood gave Sam one, either.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I thought it was shown that the demon blood affected his personality some. It at least seemed to affect his judgement. I saw it in "Swan Song" after Sam drank all that blood. His entire demeanor changed almost immediately, and that had nothing to do with Ruby.

 

Honestly, aside from what happened in S4 -- I would expect Dean to have a lot of trouble trusting Sam after Sam didn't save him from his deal. Not that that's rational exactly, but getting let down like that has got to be terrifying and I can't *imagine* feeling OK trusting that same person with my well-being again***. Let alone the well-being of *everyone.*

 

And yet when Sam complained to Dean about making the deal in the first place and how he felt betrayed because Dean did to him (Sam) what John did to Dean, Dean pretty much told him tough and even made him feel guilty sometimes for it to manipulate Sam to get his own way. And expected Sam to trust him (Dean) with their well being after that. The fact that Sam might have some resentment or be messed up by that was looked upon as selfish of Sam. It wasn't like Sam didn't try to save Dean. He did. In every way he knew how, and tried to sacrifice himself multiple times to do so. He had literally the powers of heaven and hell working against him.

 

And here, in this episode, Dean is not going to trust Sam? It had been Dean's idea to say "no" to begin with. Sam had literally almost died - and would have if Castiel hadn't come back - to back that plan at the beginning of the season. He went so far as to offer to be blown to oblivion in order to further the "no" plan. And now after backing Dean with that conviction all season, Dean runs off on his own without consulting anyone else to unilaterally change that plan, and Sam's the one not to be trusted? I myself find that a little bit hypocritical of Dean myself. I personally can see why Sam was hurt that Dean wouldn't have faith in him to continue backing the plan - that Dean himself was ditching - when Sam had been proving himself all season long even going so far as to resist Famine's offer of as much blood and power as he wanted. Sam just didn't have the heart to get into an argument about it when Dean obviously wasn't going to be convinced that way.. But I guess miles vary there also.

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Adam could either trust Zachariah and say "yes" or trust Sam and Dean and say "no." What other option was there?

 

He could have had conditions to either of his answers, which he didn't. Zachariah offered to let him see his mother if he promised to say yes afterward, but then didn't come through on the mother thing. That right there was an obvious sign that Zach wasn't going to be honoring their deal and Adam needed to go back to the drawing board, but he didn't. Sam and Dean didn't even bother to offer him a thing. It was all "pick me!" "no, pick me!" with no *actual* reasons given. Ridiculous. Like I said, every deal doesn't have to be built on personal trust and gentleman's agreements, they usually require *some* kind of real investment by *both* parties in order to at least somewhat compel cooperation. But nope, not this time. Irritating and stupid. This is the kind of ~angst~ I hate and one of the reasons I hated this whole season.

 

In my opinion, it's manipulative if you don't believe it. As I ended up adding above, Sam did believe it. Besides that still doesn't change the fact that Sam "sticking up for himself" hardly ever works in his favor. Yelling at Dean like Bobby and Cas did likely would have gotten him just as far as it did them.

 

I'm not talking about Sam yelling and throwing a tantrum and yelling as a "better" alternative to Sam crying and pouting. If you think those are the only options he had for dealing with someone intractable, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

If Sam doesn't have the wherewithal to earn and give respect with his own brother, then I don't actually buy that he *would* be any help in a fight against Lucifer. Sam used to be able to figure out a point-of-view, argue it, accept if someone wasn't going to come around, and still act according to what he thinks is the truth -- without looking like a fool. But by S5, that's gone, and it never comes back.

 

Maybe to you it did, but not to me. There was absolutely no guarantee that the angels would let the remaining people have earth. They wanted "paradise" on it, and angels like Zachariah's idea of paradise likely didn't include humans. There would just as likely end up being an angel civil war over the planet with the people in the crossfire. I didn't trust the angels one damn bit, and I thought that Dean trusting them was a sign that he'd lost some of his sense. And yes, I think that was the angels' goal, because why else would they go through the trouble of raising Lucifer in the first place? If they just wanted status quo, they would've left Lucifer in his cage where he was and gone on happily in heaven. Nope, there was a reason they helped raise Lucifer so they could destroy him, and it wasn't so the remaining humanity could live happily ever after as they were before. Not remotely, in my opinion.

 

If they were going to say yes to anyone, Michael makes more sense than Lucifer.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I thought it was shown that the demon blood affected his personality some. It at least seemed to affect his judgement. I saw it in "Swan Song" after Sam drank all that blood. His entire demeanor changed almost immediately, and that had nothing to do with Ruby.

 

He was high. But who gives a shit? He's still culpable for what he does. He didn't get some kind of personality transplant or become possessed by anyone else because he got high. And if he wants to get high and exorcise zillions of demons or whatever, fine. That's his business. Murdering people is not acceptable whether he was ~high~ or not and he knew it. Going along with Ruby, whether high or not, was stupid, and Dean told him that over and over and he knew that anyway because it's *obviously* stupid. But fine, agree to disagree.

 

And yet when Sam complained to Dean about making the deal in the first place and how he felt betrayed because Dean did to him (Sam) what John did to Dean, Dean pretty much told him tough and even made him feel guilty sometimes for it to manipulate Sam to get his own way. And expected Sam to trust him (Dean) with their well being after that. The fact that Sam might have some resentment or be messed up by that was looked upon as selfish of Sam. It wasn't like Sam didn't try to save Dean. He did. In every way he knew how, and tried to sacrifice himself multiple times to do so. He had literally the powers of heaven and hell working against him.

 

It's not about what someone wants to do or tries to do, it's what they CAN DO. And Sam couldn't save Dean, Dean couldn't save himself, and Dean ended up helplessly going to Hell and then back again. Nobody could go through helplessness like that and still feel trust for the people who were on the sidelines while it was happening imo.

 

Dean wasn't right to make the deal, but at least the deal worked. That's why I would expect Sam to still trust Dean to be able to save him. Because he successfully did it.

 

Sam couldn't successfully accomplish jack shit when it came to keeping Dean safe from Hell. Which seems like that's just how it goes sometimes, and while I would expect Dean not to trust that Sam has the ability save him at any other time, either, I don't particularly blame Sam for that failure. Shit happens. But Sam also ended up becoming a magic!crackhead and start banging a demon within *months* of Dean going to Hell. Which I find completely pathetic.

 

Asking for someone to trust him to save the world is a pretty monumental ask when he's just proven he couldn't save one person and that he's so easily led that he got into bed with Ruby. And all through S5, he's whiny and weak and undependable -- not exactly instilling confidence. Since I never gave a shit whether he drank demon blood or not, because *that's* not what was appalling about his behavior in S4 imo, that he can sometimes drink it but survive/stop again or that he can sometimes stop himself from drinking it when he doesn't want to, aren't great ~successes~ to me. I don't fault Dean for not having faith in him, because I just don't even see why he would or what Sam has done to earn it. And I don't know why Sam would even be surprised or all "not you!!!" when Dean said he didn't have faith in him.

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Sam and Dean didn't even bother to offer him a thing. It was all "pick me!" "no, pick me!" with no *actual* reasons given. Ridiculous. Like I said, every deal doesn't have to be built on personal trust and gentleman's agreements, they usually require *some* kind of real investment by *both* parties in order to at least somewhat compel cooperation. But nope, not this time. Irritating and stupid. This is the kind of ~angst~ I hate and one of the reasons I hated this whole season.

 

I'm pretty sure that Sam and Dean offered Adam protection, and as a down payment Castiel branded his ribs with sigils to protect him from Zachariah finding him.

 

I'm not talking about Sam yelling and throwing a tantrum and yelling as a "better" alternative to Sam crying and pouting. If you think those are the only options he had for dealing with someone intractable, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

If Sam doesn't have the wherewithal to earn and give respect with his own brother, then I don't actually buy that he *would* be any help in a fight against Lucifer. Sam used to be able to figure out a point-of-view, argue it, accept if someone wasn't going to come around, and still act according to what he thinks is the truth -- without looking like a fool. But by S5, that's gone, and it never comes back.

 

 

As I said, I don't think Sam used "crying and pouting" as a strategy there at all. That was your interpretation. To me he very much used a "lead by example" approach: "I'm going to show you good faith and respect, so maybe you can do the same for me." To me, that doesn't translate to whining at all. And if his reaction to Dean's lack of faith was whiny and weak, then he isn't the only brother who used that tactic - I would classify Dean's hissy fit in "Dark Side..." as along the same line. Why does Sam have to see family in exactly the same way as Dean does? And if he doesn't, why is Sam's view automatically wrong and an insult and / or betrayal to Dean? I personally didn't think either brother's reaction there was whiny or weak. They are human beings. They have feelings, whether rational or not. It's what they do after expressing and / or in spite of those feelings that counts in my opinion.

 

As for the "wherewithal to earn and give respect" with Dean. I say that's what Sam did, except in reverse order. He gave Dean respect, and Dean respected him for it in return.  He was able to consider a strategy and "act according to what he thought was the truth" i.e. that given the opportunity Dean would choose to return to their "stay the course" strategy. It took an act of faith and courage on Sam's part to adopt that strategy and some leadership to convince both Bobby and Castiel that that was what they were doing when both Castiel and Bobby disagreed. And Sam was correct - that's what Dean did. To me, I'm not sure how that made Sam "look like a fool." It made Sam's strategy smart and the right one to take.

 

If they were going to say yes to anyone, Michael makes more sense than Lucifer.

 

At that point in time, sure, but those were not the only options. Dean's only option was not either that he say yes to Michael or Sam say yes to Lucifer. Dean had the option of just continuing to say "no" which in my opinion was a much less risky option than saying "yes" to Michael. The saying "yes" to Lucifer is a different issue and was brought about by a potential new strategy that they could use. It doesn't even enter into Dean's decision to say "yes" because it wasn't even considered at that point. It wasn't Sam's fault that Dean decided that Sam was going to cave and panicked. As far as Sam was concerned, he was full steam ahead on the "no" plan just like he'd been for ages.

 

By the time the Lucifer "yes" came up, the Michael boat - which was a riskier, bad idea at the time - had sailed. It was no longer part of the equation, and if it had been used, half the planet might've already potentially been wasted with angels creating "paradise" everywhere by then.

 

He was high. But who gives a shit? He's still culpable for what he does.

 

I never said he wasn't. I just said that in my opinion, the demon blood did affect Sam's behavior - which was one of the reasons Sam was so adamant that he wasn't going back to drinking demon blood again. He didn't want to become the Sam he was back then again. It was a conscious decision on his part to stop, and he knew and admitted his limitations and did what he needed to do to gain the confidence to leave that all behind him and do what was needed to fix his mistakes.

 

Dean wasn't right to make the deal, but at least the deal worked. That's why I would expect Sam to still trust Dean to be able to save him. Because he successfully did it.

 

Well it worked for Dean, anyway. I'm not so sure Sam ended up better off, and Dean did end up being in the position to break the first seal because of it, but we'll agree to disagree on that one.

 

Sam couldn't successfully accomplish jack shit when it came to keeping Dean safe from Hell. Which seems like that's just how it goes sometimes, and while I would expect Dean not to trust that Sam has the ability save him at any other time, either, I don't particularly blame Sam for that failure. Shit happens. But Sam also ended up becoming a magic!crackhead and start banging a demon within *months* of Dean going to Hell. Which I find completely pathetic.

 

 

It wasn't just "months." Sam had also gone through "Mystery Spot" which amounted to at the very least 9 months - likely more - and so Sam knew what was coming. Considering what a mess Dean was after John died  - when he at least had Sam right there with him - and that he lasted all of a day or two after Sam died before he made his potentially suicidal deal, I don't think he should be throwing stones at Sam for falling apart after months, but maybe that's just me.

 

And all through S5, he's whiny and weak and undependable -- not exactly instilling confidence.

 

I saw the opposite of this, because to me, knowing your limitations and finding a way to persevere in spite of those isn't weak. It's practical, and there was little that was whiny or weak in his decision to sacrifice himself to correct his mistake.  So we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I don't fault Dean for not having faith in him, because I just don't even see why he would or what Sam has done to earn it. And I don't know why Sam would even be surprised or all "not you!!!" when Dean said he didn't have faith in him.

 

I gave examples above. They had been together for moths, and Sam resisted Lucifer and Famine and backed their plan no matter what. I'm not exactly sure what more Dean could expect Sam to do to prove that he'd changed and was serious about their quest. I thought he did pretty much everything that Dean asked of him.

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Yay, F*** you Zachariah!

 

This show definitely takes the Old Testament view of God and the angels, all wrath and vengeance.  Humanity is just a pawn in the war between Heaven and Hell.  Where is Jesus in all this?  The second coming of Christ is supposed to happen during the apocalypse.  There's no turn the other cheek on this show, more like punch the other cheek.

 

I don't know how many more times I can watch Sam and Dean get the crap beat out of them by demons, angels, and even Cas, all the while being self-righeously lectured.  I'm waiting for God to get a few good slugs in next.

 

I get Dean's resentment over Sam always running away from him and their dad, but at some point he needs to get over himself and understand that Sam was a kid in a crappy situation, so stop making it about him.

 

I get why Dean doesn't trust Sam, but not to be judgmental of him.  Sam didn't ask to have demon blood forced in him when he was a baby.  And Dean did his share of terrible things in Hell, though it's easy to understand why.  Dean's distrust of Sam really has nothing to do with demon blood and everything to do with his resentment over Sam always trying to get away from life with Dean and their dad.  He has always felt that Sam isn't loyal to family.

 

I did like the ending where they finally agree to just do things their own way and to hell with everyone else.

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I get why Dean doesn't trust Sam, but not to be judgmental of him.  Sam didn't ask to have demon blood forced in him when he was a baby.  And Dean did his share of terrible things in Hell, though it's easy to understand why.  Dean's distrust of Sam really has nothing to do with demon blood and everything to do with his resentment over Sam always trying to get away from life with Dean and their dad.  He has always felt that Sam isn't loyal to family.

 

I gotta say I kind of disagree with this reading of THIS situation. 

 

Dean spent 40 years in Hell with demons. He hates demons. They are the literal worst thing he can imagine. And Sam CHOSE to put his trust in a demon over Dean.  IMO that's the anger and resentment far more than family stuff at this point. 

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I gotta say I kind of disagree with this reading of THIS situation. 

 

Dean spent 40 years in Hell with demons. He hates demons. They are the literal worst thing he can imagine. And Sam CHOSE to put his trust in a demon over Dean.  IMO that's the anger and resentment far more than family stuff at this point. 

 

The problem I have with this is that Dean turned down there, he became a torturer.  So that's a fault of the writing.  When Dean returned to Earth he was the Dean we remembered, just haunted.  But doing what he did for ten years, you just don't turn that off like a switch.  Dean completely abandoned his humanity.  I would have expected evil torturer Dean to return to Earth, not haunted Dean, and a storyline where Sam helped him to reclaim his humanity again.  But Dean shows no sign whatsoever of the guy who used to torture people.  You never see him get the uperhand on somebody and the torturer takes over.  And the fact that Dean did these awful things would have caused him to take a less judgmental stance toward Sam because of his own shame.  Because when you look at it, Sam made some errors in judgment but most of those he harmed actually were demons, and he didn't sadistically torture them for his own amusement like Dean did his victims.

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Well it wasn't for his own amusement-it was because he wasn't the one being tortured any more. If he'd been left alone to aimlessly wander Hell like Caine wandered around the Old West in Kung Fu he wouldn't have tortured anyone. Plus you have to add in a certain amount of conditioning/brainwashing.

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Well sure, Dean gave in because he couldn't take the abuse anymore and you can't blame him for it.  But he still turned.  He said himself that he grew to enjoy torturing people, so that meant he changed.  You can't enjoy doing something that hideous and not be changed by it.  Simply being relocated from Hell back to Earth by Castiel doesn't erase that.

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Well sure, Dean gave in because he couldn't take the abuse anymore and you can't blame him for it.  But he still turned.  He said himself that he grew to enjoy torturing people, so that meant he changed.  You can't enjoy doing something that hideous and not be changed by it.  Simply being relocated from Hell back to Earth by Castiel doesn't erase that.

Yeah. Like I've said many times about Dean's stint in Hell...I think it shoulda taken a lot more than a fifth of whiskey to get him up everyday.

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Yeah. Like I've said many times about Dean's stint in Hell...I think it shoulda taken a lot more than a fifth of whiskey to get him up everyday.

 

That would have required the show to actually really think about Dean post-Hell but that wasn't the story they wanted to tell. They sidelined/ignored it by couching it within Dean's "character trait" of never talking about things that really fucked him up. 

 

But I should probably take the rest of my reply to the bitterness thread. LOL 

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I'm not sure what you mean by Dean turned. Dean never became a demon in Hell as far as we know. It was never said nor implied that was the case in text nor subtext IMO. Dean may have derived pleasure from the release and the payback but I don't think Dean used torture as a means of manipulation. I think that was what he called 'liking it'. IMO

But we know he despised what he did because we saw how much he didn't want to be that thing again. And he even chastised his future self for using torture as an interrogation tactic. He begged Cas to not make him torture again, even with it being Alastair.

I think Dean loathed demons and loathed himself so a bit of projection happening there too.

I think it's also basic cognitive dissonance for Dean that Sam would place his faith and trust with the same creatures that killed Sam's mother, girlfriend, father and brother regardless of what Dean did in Hell.

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I'm not sure what you mean by Dean turned.

 

It means that Dean turned to the dark side, he embraced evil, he took sadistic pleasure in bringing suffering to people.  He did this for ten long years, not ten hours or even ten days.  When he started doing that it was so he could end his own suffering, but after a time he started doing it because he truly enjoyed it.  He turned.  And while you say and it is true that he didn't want to become that thing again and chastised the practice of angels using torture, the show never presented how he got to that place,  The moment he arrived back on Earth again he was already his old self with his original moral values, just a sad and tortured soul, when more realistically he should have still been Torturer Dean, and gone on a long redemption path to reclaim his humanity again.  You just don't turn that on and off like a switch.

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It means that Dean turned to the dark side, he embraced evil, he took sadistic pleasure in bringing suffering to people.  He did this for ten long years, not ten hours or even ten days.  When he started doing that it was so he could end his own suffering, but after a time he started doing it because he truly enjoyed it.  He turned.  And while you say and it is true that he didn't want to become that thing again and chastised the practice of angels using torture, the show never presented how he got to that place,  The moment he arrived back on Earth again he was already his old self with his original moral values, just a sad and tortured soul, when more realistically he should have still been Torturer Dean, and gone on a long redemption path to reclaim his humanity again.  You just don't turn that on and off like a switch.

 

I don't think Dean's moral values had to irrevocably altered in Hell when more of his life was spent doing good for humanity than the 10 years he gave into the darkside. He has had 25 years of doing good and then another 30 being tortured himself. I think it's fair to think once he came topside in one piece he might see even more the horrors of demons because of what they did to him and what it was doing to him to have gone darkside. He really knows and is more determined to not go back to that path.

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I have to agree that Michael ending up going with Adam seemed like a cop out.  Michael could have had Adam much earlier, if it was that easy to bring back the dead. 

Sure blew Sam and Deans mind when Adam didn't talk fondly about John since John did dad stuff with Adam, but only briefly.  The boys got more John but not as much dad.

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I love Zachariah and Stewart's opening complaining about their firings. Flaming eyeballs will never not be creepy. Dean's in hotel room 100. Nice touch. Sam having Castiel help kidnap Dean is an amusing end to the heartfelt boy melodrama. Damn, Bobby. Way to lay the guilt on Dean. Badass Cas! I love when they let him be a warrior. Bringing Adam back is a really good plot twist. Really what is the point of the Enochian sigils if they just hang out at Singer Salvage all the time? I'm amused at Sam using "you don't know me from a hole in the wall" since he's talking to Adam and can't use the most common ending. Adam seeming so Dean-like feels more a cop-out than just bringing him back. Frankly, given that he's pre-med, I would've thought he'd be a little more Sam-like. Dean pointing out Sam's flaws as why he'll eventually cave to Lucifer hurts. He's not even angry about it or anything just matter-of-fact. Adam's got pretty eyes too. "You pray too loud." I kinda like Cas kicking the crap out of Dean. But I'm deeply disturbed by Dean yelling "Just do it!" Does he mean knock him out and take him back or does he have a death wish? Zachariah is such a dick. I love Sam's faith in Dean. I'm laughing at Cas's lack of faith in Dean. Seriously, Dean, you should not have pissed him off. I'd forgotten the chest sigil. Awesome, but not how I wanted to get shirtless Misha. Aw, Dean watching his brothers bleed out and looking all desperate...until that moment of clarity with the wink. Love him tricking Zachariah, even if it did put Michael and Adam together. I like that Dean wasn't faking it when they started the speech and that they didn't try to tell us otherwise. Well, I like that the hundredth episode ends with the boys together and hopeful. 

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Zach and Stewart commiserating was pretty funny, until Michael came.  Then I just felt sorry for Stewart and the bartender.  

Dean packing the box after the splash screen was so sad - especially this time through that I know what he's up to.  I can't believe that bottle wasn't emptier than it was though.  

Nice job tracking, Sam!  I sure hope that 'he was wrong every time he ran away' line wasn't including when he went off to college - 'cause that is just all wrong.  That line was really unfair from Dean anyway.  Granted, Sam has run away a few times.  There were also times - important times - that he didn't.  He didn't run away when Dean asked him to help look for John.  He didn't run away after Jess died or when Dean kept dying over and over in Mystery Spot.  He didn't run away when Dean only had a year to live and he didn't run away after Dean got shredded by hellhounds.  So screw that line.  I'm going to have to chalk it up to alcohol and stress.  

I love Cas' face when he zaps Dean and when he's watching him pace at Bobby's.  He is angry.  

Don't poke the heaving earth hole, Cas!  Castiel has got some moves!  Probably not so easy to do in that trenchcoat.  

I'd forgotten how Adam was resurrected.  He's got a point about his family being his mom, not John and certainly not Sam and Dean.  Adam and Dean both snarking at Sam was pretty funny.  Sam's puppy dog eyes even work on resurrected dead guys who have already been brainwashed by angels.  Nice.  And while Adam whines about his not-so-perfect life with just him and his mom (cooked his own dinners, put himself to bed - gee who else does that sound like?) he has no idea what Sam and Dean's lives were like moving around constantly.  At least he had a stable home.  Sam would have liked to have had that.  I really don't know about Dean.  I think so, at least when he was younger, but I'm not certain about it.  

I forgot they locked Dean in the panic room.  Why didn't they just lock both Dean and Adam in there?  Can't believe that Dean included Mary and John in the list of people that they'd 'gotten killed'.  Uh - no.  If any of them, those two were not those boys' fault.  That was a hard talk in the panic room between Sam and Dean.  Jared did a great job reacting.  

I would definitely not want to get into a fight with Cas.   

Wow, the guy who plays Zach does such a good job in the room with Adam.  Perfect combination of smug sarcastic and smarmy to make you really hate the character.

I do love that Sam has that faith in Dean.  Ouch, it hurts a bit that Cas doesn't.  Interesting that Dean was able to look straight into Zach's eyes as he flamed out and not have his eyes burned out.  

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Season 5 is in many ways one of the most depressing seasons of the show for me. With the exception of Sam, who went through a journey of learning to find true inner strength and faith, the entire main cast are sunk down to a low point. This episode in many ways highlights this aspect of the seasonal journey of Dean, Bobby and Castiel. Here are some of my thoughts on these arcs and their build up prior to this episode. 

In the case of Bobby his descent began in Sympathy for the Devil when he learnt Castiel was not capable of providing a quick fix to the damage sustained to his legs. As he explained to Dean during The Curious Case of Dean Winchester. It isn't simply an issue of vanity, but a form of survivors guilt. Bobby, like most hunters, has spent years submerged in a war like atmosphere. He has been there to provide both intelligence and muscle to the other soldiers involved in the fight against the Supernatural. Suddenly, he is no longer capable of doing this! Bobby has been forced to sit in the sidelines and watch as those he cares for go off to fight without him. He feels useless and his fears are made a reality when Ellen and Jo die during the events of Abandon All Hope. The character is further broken when he is forced to 'kill' his wife Karen for the second time after Death raises her as punishment for aiding the brothers. However, as this episode shows there is still one thing that is keeping Bobby going and that is his bond with Dean. He made a promise to Dean and he intends to keep it. Is it fair of him to shift responsibility for his agency to Dean like that? Definitely not! However, if he needs to find an external source of strength to keep going through such a dark period then I'm willing to forgive him. I find it a testament to Dean's ability to get under people's skill that he was able to reach Bobby, while he was in such a dark place.

Then there's Castiel. Season five represents a rather dramatic shift in the Angel's psyche. Last season he was filled with both self-righteousness and a sense of purpose. Yes, there were periods where he struggled with the task given to him e.g. On the Head of a Pin. However, he ultimately has faith in his superiors and the righteousness of their mission to follow the will of God. The conclusion of season four and the opening of season five completely shatters this illusion. The superiors he had placed his trust in had proven themselves to be duplicitous and completely contrary to the values he has always maintained. Castiel has become a soldier without a leader, and he naturally decides to try and find a new one and so the search for God begins. However, this proves to be another dead end. Castiel, the loyal and dutiful son, has suddenly found himself cast a sunder. Everything he has ever believed has been proven as false. He doesn't know how to cope. He turns to copious amounts of alcohol and arguably exhibits the potential to become the man we met during The End. By this point his faith has shifted to Dean. The man who encouraged him to think for himself and fight against the corrupt system. The man who has always exhibited a true love for his fellow man and a willingness to do whatever it took to ensure their best interest was seen. However, now it seems, that even he is about to let Castiel down and join the system they'd fought so hard against. While his words to Dean about lacking the faith held by Sam was upsetting I could also understand it. He had already been let down by numerous trusted figures, what was one more? IMO Castiel was not only beating Dean in that alley! Of course he was genuinely angry at Dean, but I also believe he was using Dean as a representation of God, Michael and all the others that had let him down. I thought Misha did an amazing job of conveying how close Castiel was to losing it completely. How close he was to following Dean command to "just do it" and continue using Dean to express his frustrations against the figures he had no power to attack directly. Sadly, Castiel ends the episode in this continued state of despair and disillusionment. 

And last, but certainly not least, there is Dean. This episode represents the climax of a journey of depression that began to unfold at the end of Abandon All Hope. It was then, when they lost two trusted allies, that the reality of the insane task they'd undertaken began to set in. It was then Dean learnt that this wasn't a problem that would be quickly fixed by the colt, and it wasn't going to be achieved without losses. The Winchester's descent into depression continues to unfold until it is more explicitly highlighted during My Bloody Valentine. Dean has become numb, practically dead inside, he is only going through the motions for the sake of going through them and has already reached a point where he feels defeated. He even finds himself openly praying to the heavens as he no longer feels capable of doing it alone and needs help. Then we get to Dark Side of the Moon and the end of Dean's tether has been reached as he loses faith in both the bond he shares with Sam and the hope God would provide the help he cried out for previously. We know that Dean has major abandonment issues and this is particularly clear when he ponders on whether Sam was ever truly his brother due to his desire to go to Stanford. This scene highlights that Dean is prone to taking the desire of Sam to lead a life away from hunting as a personal insult and a negative reflection on their brotherly bond. Therefore, it is unsurprising he feels a deep level of hurt when Sam's treasured memories are often occasions when he is separated from his family. For Sam those memories represent times when he escaped the repressive regime of John and was free to explore the life he wanted to lead, while for Dean they were times of worry and deep distress. It is understandable that upon his return to earth Dean is completely and utterly done. He no longer has the strength needed to keep going and considers nuclear to be the only option available to him. He doesn't trust Sam to not give in. He doesn't trust the strength of their bond. He feels the best option he can give is the one where Michael saves some people rather than allowing Lucifer to destroy all people. 

 

The depressive state of Dean is clearly reflected in the following dialogue

Quote

DEAN 
We’re all gonna die, Sam. In like a month—maybe two. I mean it. This is the end of the world, but these people aren’t freaking out. In fact they’re running to the exit in an orderly fashion. I don’t know that that’s such a bad thing. (99 Problems)
 

DEAN 
Angel world, angel rules, man. 

SAM 
And since when is that okay with you? 

DEAN 
Since the angels’ got the only lifeboats on the Titanic. I mean, who exactly is supposed to come along and save these people? It was supposed to be us, but we can’t do it.  (99 Problems) 

 

DEAN
Reality happened. Nuclear’s the only option we have left. Michael can ice the devil, save a boatload of people. (Point of No Return)

DEAN
I just…I—I don’t believe. 

SAM
In what? 

DEAN
In you. I mean, I don’t. I don’t know whether it’s gonna be demon blood or some other demon chick or what, but…I do know they're gonna find a way to turn you. 

SAM
So you’re saying I’m not strong enough. 

DEAN
You’re angry, you’re self-righteous. Lucifer's gonna wear you to the prom, man. It's just a matter of time. 

SAM
Don't say that to me. Not you...of all people. 

DEAN
I don’t want to. But it’s the truth. And when Satan takes you over, there's got to be somebody there to fight him, and it ain't gonna be that kid. So, it's got to be me. (Point of No Return)


And then there is the fact that he promised Lisa that he would ensure she and Ben are protected from the fallout of the battle between Michael and Lucifer. This is clearly a decision Dean has thought hard on, and he wouldn't have plans to provide the angels with a potential hit list (if he backed down or acted with duplicity), if he didn't intend to fully go through with it. Thankfully though Sam proves to show the faith in Dean that others such as Castiel and Bobby lacked. The display of love and affection enough to give Dean the strength needed to not keep going! Just as Bobby needed to lean on Dean's support to fight through the worst of his depression now Dean is going to lean on Sam until he finds the strength to stand truly on his own again.

 

Other highlights of the episode

 

- The dynamic between the true Adam, Sam and Dean. I love that he highlights blood means nothing without the emotional link to back it up and that his mum is the one who matters to him. The dynamic between them felt real, and I thought Jake had a decent chemistry with Jared and Jensen!

- SO much badass Castiel! I don't mean the alley way scene, which is hard to watch, but rather his fights with the other angel. The way he tackled the two angels surrounding Adam's grave, or the sigil to banish himself and the other angels was pretty bad ass! I love when the show gives Castiel his moments to shine.

- DEAN FINALLY GOT TO TAKE OUT ZACHARIAH! TAKE THAT YOU SMUG ARROGANT PIECE OF CRAP!  Can you tell his demise filled me with joy? 

Edited by Wayward Son
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On 8/3/2017 at 8:15 PM, Wayward Son said:

Season 5 is in many ways one of the most depressing seasons of the show for me. With the exception of Sam, who went through a journey of learning to find true inner strength and faith, the entire main cast are sunk down to a low point. This episode in many ways highlights this aspect of the seasonal journey of Dean, Bobby and Castiel. Here are some of my thoughts on these arcs and their build up prior to this episode. 

In the case of Bobby his descent began in Sympathy for the Devil when he learnt Castiel was not capable of providing a quick fix to the damage sustained to his legs. As he explained to Dean during The Curious Case of Dean Winchester. It isn't simply an issue of vanity, but a form of survivors guilt. Bobby, like most hunters, has spent years submerged in a war like atmosphere. He has been there to provide both intelligence and muscle to the other soldiers involved in the fight against the Supernatural. Suddenly, he is no longer capable of doing this! Bobby has been forced to sit in the sidelines and watch as those he cares for go off to fight without him. He feels useless and his fears are made a reality when Ellen and Jo die during the events of Abandon All Hope. The character is further broken when he is forced to 'kill' his wife Karen for the second time after Death raises her as punishment for aiding the brothers. However, as this episode shows there is still one thing that is keeping Bobby going and that is his bond with Dean. He made a promise to Dean and he intends to keep it. Is it fair of him to shift responsibility for his agency to Dean like that? Definitely not! However, if he needs to find an external source of strength to keep going through such a dark period then I'm willing to forgive him. I find it a testament to Dean's ability to get under people's skill that he was able to reach Bobby, while he was in such a dark place.

Then there's Castiel. Season five represents a rather dramatic shift in the Angel's psyche. Last season he was filled with both self-righteousness and a sense of purpose. Yes, there were periods where he struggled with the task given to him e.g. On the Head of a Pin. However, he ultimately has faith in his superiors and the righteousness of their mission to follow the will of God. The conclusion of season four and the opening of season five completely shatters this illusion. The superiors he had placed his trust in had proven themselves to be duplicitous and completely contrary to the values he has always maintained. Castiel has become a soldier without a leader, and he naturally decides to try and find a new one and so the search for God begins. However, this proves to be another dead end. Castiel, the loyal and dutiful son, has suddenly found himself cast a sunder. Everything he has ever believed has been proven as false. He doesn't know how to cope. He turns to copious amounts of alcohol and arguably exhibits the potential to become the man we met during The End. By this point his faith has shifted to Dean. The man who encouraged him to think for himself and fight against the corrupt system. The man who has always exhibited a true love for his fellow man and a willingness to do whatever it took to ensure their best interest was seen. However, now it seems, that even he is about to let Castiel down and join the system they'd fought so hard against. While his words to Dean about lacking the faith held by Sam was upsetting I could also understand it. He had already been let down by numerous trusted figures, what was one more? IMO Castiel was not only beating Dean in that alley! Of course he was genuinely angry at Dean, but I also believe he was using Dean as a representation of God, Michael and all the others that had let him down. I thought Misha did an amazing job of conveying how close Castiel was to losing it completely. How close he was to following Dean command to "just do it" and continue using Dean to express his frustrations against the figures he had no power to attack directly. Sadly, Castiel ends the episode in this continued state of despair and disillusionment. 

And last, but certainly not least, there is Dean. This episode represents the climax of a journey of depression that began to unfold at the end of Abandon All Hope. It was then, when they lost two trusted allies, that the reality of the insane task they'd undertaken began to set in. It was then Dean learnt that this wasn't a problem that would be quickly fixed by the colt, and it wasn't going to be achieved without losses. The Winchester's descent into depression continues to unfold until it is more explicitly highlighted during My Bloody Valentine. Dean has become numb, practically dead inside, he is only going through the motions for the sake of going through them and has already reached a point where he feels defeated. He even finds himself openly praying to the heavens as he no longer feels capable of doing it alone and needs help. Then we get to Dark Side of the Moon and the end of Dean's tether has been reached as he loses faith in both the bond he shares with Sam and the hope God would provide the help he cried out for previously. We know that Dean has major abandonment issues and this is particularly clear when he ponders on whether Sam was ever truly his brother due to his desire to go to Stanford. This scene highlights that Dean is prone to taking the desire of Sam to lead a life away from hunting as a personal insult and a negative reflection on their brotherly bond. Therefore, it is unsurprising he feels a deep level of hurt when Sam's treasured memories are often occasions when he is separated from his family. For Sam those memories represent times when he escaped the repressive regime of John and was free to explore the life he wanted to lead, while for Dean they were times of worry and deep distress. It is understandable that upon his return to earth Dean is completely and utterly done. He no longer has the strength needed to keep going and considers nuclear to be the only option available to him. He doesn't trust Sam to not give in. He doesn't trust the strength of their bond. He feels the best option he can give is the one where Michael saves some people rather than allowing Lucifer to destroy all people. 

 

The depressive state of Dean is clearly reflected in the following dialogue


And then there is the fact that he promised Lisa that he would ensure she and Ben are protected from the fallout of the battle between Michael and Lucifer. This is clearly a decision Dean has thought hard on, and he wouldn't have plans to provide the angels with a potential hit list (if he backed down or acted with duplicity), if he didn't intend to fully go through with it. Thankfully though Sam proves to show the faith in Dean that others such as Castiel and Bobby lacked. The display of love and affection enough to give Dean the strength needed to not keep going! Just as Bobby needed to lean on Dean's support to fight through the worst of his depression now Dean is going to lean on Sam until he finds the strength to stand truly on his own again.

 

Other highlights of the episode

 

- The dynamic between the true Adam, Sam and Dean. I love that he highlights blood means nothing without the emotional link to back it up and that his mum is the one who matters to him. The dynamic between them felt real, and I thought Jake had a decent chemistry with Jared and Jensen!

- SO much badass Castiel! I don't mean the alley way scene, which is hard to watch, but rather his fights with the other angel. The way he tackled the two angels surrounding Adam's grave, or the sigil to banish himself and the other angels was pretty bad ass! I love when the show gives Castiel his moments to shine.

- DEAN FINALLY GOT TO TAKE OUT ZACHARIAH! TAKE THAT YOU SMUG ARROGANT PIECE OF CRAP!  Can you tell his demise filled me with joy? 

Great post. I wholeheartedly agree with all of your points especially the bolded parts.

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really dean? you're shocked that sam can find you in no time flat but you found sam when he was with ruby? lol... he's probably this only person on this place who could track you anyway. no, definitely the only person. bobby would find you, but not nearly as fast.

"You're not my father."

holy cow, no matter how mad dean is, he should never be allowed to say this to bobby. my heart actually sank when he said that. if i was sam i just would have just told him to leave.

i don't feel as horribly for adam because i am so cold and bitter towards him he's nothing more or less of new character to me. they could say he's their brother a million times over and i would just stare blankly. also since he is completely different from the other adam he's not that recognizable so it's easy to be so removed to him. but whatever i feel absolutely him dean and sam still care about him so there's that. the angels are going all out for this, they really want this apocalypse thing to keep going.

"You know Sam and Dean Winchester are psychotically, irrationally, erotically codependent on each other, right?"

haha, on one hand this gave bait to the wincest shippers but on another hand that was rather funny because it reminded me of another brother duo i follow in real life.

"If it were me, I would let you rot in here. I have before."

i think we all know the bull in this. firstly i forgot to note it the episode when sam is imprisoned, but remember the look on dean's face when he and bobby had to pin him down because of his demon blood withdrawal? he was staring at him so worriedly that bobby had to call him THREE TIMES to get his attention. so yeah there's the cold heartless dean letting sam rot. second and most importantly, sam is completely unmoved by this lazy and useless lie, but is so emotional he has to leave the room when dean says he doesn't have faith in him ("Don't say that to me. Not you...of all people....")

me and my family were screaming when it looked like dean was going to become michael...and we screamed again when zach finally died. Y E S. PRAISE BE. YEEEEEEEEEEEESS. HATED HIM SO MUCH. sucks that cass is the only likeable angel.

speaking of, is he dead?!?!? PLEASE NOOOOOOP

P.S: oh and dean absolutely deserved that beating by cass. "I rebelled for THIS?!?" tell em, cass. although it's not as if i don't understand dean's side of the story.  but he's doing almost exactly what sam did in S4. dean told him that the apocalypse is all on his shoulders and he's feeling that pressure. but that's almost exactly what sam thought of himself with himself and lilith.  he's keeping his feelings to himself while sam is being open, which was vice versa last season. sam is freaking out over dean and trying to bring him back to planet earth, again the same in S4. and escaping to straight up leaving to say yes michael is tantamount of betraying sam. in fact i never noticed how lost and out of it dean was until he threw off cass to "Oz" and escaped. again it's extremely similar to sam going off and drinking the blood, heck escaping the same prison dean was in. and yes this may have been obvious a long time ago to many but i'm slow af peeps. sue me.

anywaaaaays i'm really liking these current eps so far. the plot is really going forward and some deep dark stuff is really getting revealed.

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10 minutes ago, Iju said:

"You're not my father."

holy cow, no matter how mad dean is, he should never be allowed to say this to bobby.

Except, he's actually not his father.

10 minutes ago, Iju said:

P.S: oh and dean absolutely deserved that beating by cass.

Really? Beating the shit out of someone who can't possibly fight back is the best way to show your disapproval? I think it was one of the worst things Castiel ever did. It made him no better than any of the other dicks with wings.

Big spoiler.

Spoiler

And sadly, it's not the last time Cas does this to Dean -beats a human man who can't fight back. Makes it almost satisfying when he tries it again a few years later only to find Dean isn't quite so defenseless this time.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except, he's actually not his father.

Exactly.

 

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Really? Beating the shit out of someone who can't possibly fight back is the best way to show your disapproval? I think it was one of the worst things Castiel ever did. It made him no better than any of the other dicks with wings.

Co-sign. I found that scene to be completely gross and unnecessary. 

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19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except, he's actually not his father.

lmao he knew exactly what that meant, alone with everyone in the room. 

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Really? Beating the shit out of someone who can't possibly fight back is the best way to show your disapproval? I think it was one of the worst things Castiel ever did. It made him no better than any of the other dicks with wings.

for one, i don't find the beating that bad since cass is capable of so much worse. secondly, we've already had a brother caught all up in his feelings and it didn't end too well. thirdly dean is beyond words at the moment so i feel he needed that. 

just to clarify i don't like seeing dean get beat up at any point, in fact i look away at most situations. but he needed that reality check. as i pointed out he's getting as lost as sam did last season, at least in my opinion. 

------

oh yes and why did no one point out dean's line: "Well, Cas, not for nothing, but the last person who looked at me like that…I got laid."

LMAOOOO how on earth could cass have looked that way at dean???

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41 minutes ago, Iju said:

P.S: oh and dean absolutely deserved that beating by cass

Deserved to be nearly beaten to death because he made a choice that Cas didn't like? Wow. Sorry but no one deserves to be beaten within an inch of their life when Dean's plan was actually not terrible. And well he had a plan. They don't.

 

4 minutes ago, Iju said:

oh yes and why did no one point out dean's line: "Well, Cas, not for nothing, but the last person who looked at me like that…I got laid."

It was. We do. It went a long way to fuel the Destiel shippers (like me).

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8 minutes ago, Iju said:

for one, i don't find the beating that bad since cass is capable of so much worse. secondly, we've already had a brother caught all up in his feelings and it didn't end too well. thirdly dean is beyond words at the moment so i feel he needed that. 

 

He nearly beat Dean to death, and there was no way for Dean to fight back - just because he could have killed him doesn't justify it. At all. It makes Cas a bully and a dick. Seriously, the justification that he 'needed it' kind of boggles my mind.

Quote

lmao he knew exactly what that meant, alone with everyone in the room. 

So it was okay for Cas to beat the shit out of Dean because he was upset, but not for Dean to use a weapon of words? Okay then.

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20 minutes ago, Iju said:

for one, i don't find the beating that bad since cass is capable of so much worse. secondly, we've already had a brother caught all up in his feelings and it didn't end too well. thirdly dean is beyond words at the moment so i feel he needed that. 

For one, Cas is an angel with tons more strength than Dean regardless of whether or not he could have done worse. For two, Cas chose to rebel for both brothers after he realized that blindly following the plan laid out by Heaven wasn't the right thing to do. Just because Dean wanted to make a choice that he didn't agree with didn't mean that he needed to be beaten within an inch of his life. It was completely unnecessary. 

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He nearly beat Dean to death, and there was no way for Dean to fight back - just because he could have killed him doesn't justify it. At all. It makes Cas a bully and a dick. Seriously, the justification that he 'needed it' kind of boggles my mind.

Seriously! This is akin to people thinking that Dean needed to hear the "boohoo Princess" speech. Dean's loved ones have shitty methods of communication.

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55 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

For one, Cas is an angel with tons more strength than Dean regardless of whether or not he could have done worse. For two, Cas chose to rebel for both brothers after he realized that blindly following the plan laid out by Heaven wasn't the right thing to do. Just because Dean wanted to make a choice that he didn't agree with didn't mean that he needed to be beaten within an inch of his life. It was completely unnecessary. 

in times like this emotions run high, even cass'. and like i said before i'm not misunderstanding or ignoring what dean is feeling. but he needed a wake-up call. how is was done is certainly up for debate. in the end agreed, it pretty much as unnecessary because guess what it was the reason why dean didn't say yes, it wasn't cass lol.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He nearly beat Dean to death, and there was no way for Dean to fight back - just because he could have killed him doesn't justify it. At all. It makes Cas a bully and a dick. Seriously, the justification that he 'needed it' kind of boggles my mind.

i....really don't think he beat him almost to death. i really don't. what would be the use of him killing dean if he, like he said, rebelled for his existence?

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So it was okay for Cas to beat the shit out of Dean because he was upset, but not for Dean to use a weapon of words? Okay then.

two utterly and completely different situations. cass was angry at dean's self centeredness and acted out on it. just think about his side of the table. he was already pissed at sam for a long time about the apocalypse and dean is now doing some of the same things sam did that lead him astray. but this time it's different because he didn't rebel for sam, he did for dean. and now it's happening all over again. 

dean bit at bobby who was only trying to help and he stabbed it where he knew it would hurt the most. now i understand both situations of dean, he's angry, lost and broken. but taking out on bobby especially like that didn't only floor myself, it silenced the room i was sitting in. we all knew how deep that was.

and i really can't say anymore when i have said multiple times already that i wasn't happy to see dean get beat up or even how it was okay, but he had it coming from SOMEONE sooner or later, and unfortunately that was cass.

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3 minutes ago, Iju said:

in times like this emotions run high, even cass'. and like i said before i'm not misunderstanding or ignoring what dean is feeling. but he needed a wake-up call.

That's not the kind of wake up call you're supposed to get from someone that supposedly cares about you. You don't beat someone until they submit to what you want them to do which is what Cas did. It may be up for debate but I still say IMO it was gross and unnecessary.

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8 minutes ago, Iju said:

i....really don't think he beat him almost to death. i really don't. what would be the use of him killing dean if he, like he said, rebelled for his existence?

Maybe you should watch again. Dean certainly thought he was going to kill him. And if his intention was only to use his angelic strength to punish Dean for his decision, that's even worse. He took his temper and frustrations out on Dean in a physical and brutal way, but that's okay because Dean deserved it? Because that's the only 'language' he could understand? Sorry, but that's bullshit. And it didn't even work. The beating and Cas's disappointment didn't figure into Dean changing his mind - Sam's faith in him did. If Cas had just beamed him back into the panic room unharmed, the result would've been the same.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That's not the kind of wake up call you're supposed to get from someone that supposedly cares about you. You don't beat someone until they submit to what you want them to do which is what Cas did. It may be up for debate but I still say IMO it was gross and unnecessary.

no it wasn't the best way to go, and if there was a choice of mine for cass' to beat up dean at all or handle it a different way, i would definitely choose the latter. he surely should have apologized as well. but sometimes we get what we need in the worst ways possible. 

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9 minutes ago, Iju said:

two utterly and completely different situations. cass was angry at dean's self centeredness and acted out on it. just think about his side of the table. he was already pissed at sam for a long time about the apocalypse and dean is now doing some of the same things sam did that lead him astray. but this time it's different because he didn't rebel for sam, he did for dean. and now it's happening all over again. 

So Dean was self centered for wanting to sacrifice his life for the sake of the entire human race? Doesn't strike me as a selfish decision. Also, deciding to make that decision was not the same thing as Sam drinking demon blood to power up to kill Lilith if that's what you're referring to when you say that Dean did the same things as Sam. Also, again, no one told Cas to rebel he did it of his own free will. You can't blame someone for making a decision that differs from yours and decide to beat them bloody when their decision makes you angry. 

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5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe you should watch again. Dean certainly thought he was going to kill him. And if his intention was only to use his angelic strength to punish Dean for his decision, that's even worse. He took his temper and frustrations out on Dean in a physical and brutal way, but that's okay because Dean deserved it? Because that's the only 'language' he could understand? Sorry, but that's bullshit. And it didn't even work. The beating and Cas's disappointment didn't figure into Dean changing his mind - Sam's faith in him did. If Cas had just beamed him back into the panic room unharmed, the result would've been the same.

i think you need to reread what i said because that's basically all what i said, lol. because i agree on all accounts.

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1 minute ago, Iju said:

no it wasn't the best way to go, and if there was a choice of mine for cass' to beat up dean at all or handle it a different way, i would definitely choose the latter. he surely should have apologized as well. but sometimes we get what we need in the worst ways possible. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic because beating someone bloody to steer them in the direction that you want them to go is abusive plain and simple. 

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe you should watch again. Dean certainly thought he was going to kill him. And if his intention was only to use his angelic strength to punish Dean for his decision, that's even worse. He took his temper and frustrations out on Dean in a physical and brutal way, but that's okay because Dean deserved it? Because that's the only 'language' he could understand? Sorry, but that's bullshit. And it didn't even work. The beating and Cas's disappointment didn't figure into Dean changing his mind - Sam's faith in him did.

So much this! I hated the writing for this ep and I rarely rewatch it. 

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3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe you should watch again. Dean certainly thought he was going to kill him

It's an absolutely brutal beatdown and if Cas had let his emotions get further out of hand, he could have killed Dean in an instant. Just because he didn't, doesn't mean Dean deserved this kind of beating. This almost made me hate Castiel. Thankfully, they redeemd him for me. 

This wasn't like Dean got a spanking. Cas beat the

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3 minutes ago, Iju said:

i think you need to reread what i said because that's basically all what i said, lol. because i agree on all accounts.

LOL, okay.

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Just now, DeeDee79 said:

So Dean was self centered for wanting to sacrifice his life for the sake of the entire human race? Doesn't strike me as a selfish decision. Also, deciding to make that decision was not the same thing as Sam drinking demon blood to power up to kill Lilith if that's what you're referring to when you say that Dean did the same things as Sam. Also, again, no one told Cas to rebel he did it of his own free will. You can't blame someone for making a decision that differs from yours and decide to beat them bloody when their decision makes you angry. 

no i not referring to dean saying yes as the demon blood, i was referring to dean saying yes as a way of leaving sam just as sam turned from dean. in both cases, they believe they are going to save the world. but in the end they are leaving each other, which is why dean was so hurt in the first place. sam wasn't seeing his saving the world as betraying dean because he still loved him (ofc), and dean is so lost at this point he just wants to do anything to save the world. sam is freaking out because if dean says yes then it's almost certain he will as well. that's what i meant.

yes dean nor sam was responsible for cass' rebellion, but he also put a lot of faith in dean especially in the season finale when dean urged him to do what he felt was right in saving sam. i'm not really calling dean self centered by my own views, but possibly what cass is thinking. i'm looking at both sides here.

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4 minutes ago, Iju said:

i'm looking at both sides here

Seems like you're looking at it from Cas and Sam's side and yet Dean's POV is the one that deserves to be disregarded and to get a beating because it differs from Cas and Sam's. Or am I misunderstanding?

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