S05.E18: Point Of No Return

[Iju]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Seems like you're looking at it from Cas and Sam's side and yet Dean's POV is the one that deserves to be disregarded and to get a beating because it differs from Cas and Sam's. Or am I misunderstanding?

yes i'm afraid you are misunderstanding because i said

2 hours ago, Iju said:

although it's not as if i don't understand dean's side of the story.

and

32 minutes ago, Iju said:

now i understand both situations of dean, he's angry, lost and broken.

i don't get how if i look at both sides of the table of two POVs i'm disregarding one side. i'm not. i even said i didn't know how broken dean REALLY was until he escaped. here's the thing - i understand him and his decisions because how the heck could i have not if i understood the blood demon addicted sam? he doesn't know what else to do in addition that he is rapidly losing hope in everything around him, even his own brother. i have never disregarded dean's feelings in the matter and never have. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Iju said:

i have never disregarded dean's feelings in the matter and never have. 

I didn't say you disregarded his feelings. I said you disregarded is POV which isn't his feelings. 

I'm reading it as you think Dean's POV about saying yes to Michael was wrong and that because it was wrong, he deserved and needed the beating Cas gave him to the learn the lesson.

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, Iju said:

yes dean nor sam was responsible for cass' rebellion, but he also put a lot of faith in dean especially in the season finale when dean urged him to do what he felt was right in saving sam. i'm not really calling dean self centered by my own views, but possibly what cass is thinking. i'm looking at both sides here.

LOL, good people on both sides, hmm? Sorry, but even being self-centered (which he wasn't) doesn't make Cas beating him to a pulp okay. He abused his power to either manipulate him (bad), punish him (worse), or just take his temper out on someone who couldn't fight back.

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Really? Beating the shit out of someone who can't possibly fight back is the best way to show your disapproval? I think it was one of the worst things Castiel ever did. It made him no better than any of the other dicks with wings.

Replying in the all episodes thread. 

[Iju]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL, good people on both sides, hmm? Sorry, but even being self-centered (which he wasn't) doesn't make Cas beating him to a pulp okay. He abused his power to either manipulate him (bad), punish him (worse), or just take his temper out on someone who couldn't fight back.

how is thinking on both POVs wrong, it helps a person (at least me) understand the character more. thinking on both sides isn't wrong just because one side happens to look so bad and terrible, i try to change shoes with all the characters. i don't seem to remember my being on both sides and understanding dean and sam when sam was on demon blood being a problem. when everyone in my entire family hated him i still stood by him, i still understood him, was always patient when i could have been totally in the right to call him all sorts of names and leave him completely - all the while understanding how dean felt as well. i am only acting out what Logic class taught me when i was a kid, try to understand both sides or else just staying in one corner saying "i'm right you're wrong" will get no-one anywhere. now if that may seem immorally wrong to you, power to you. but that's just how i work.

once again we are going in circles because this is perhaps the third time i am saying the way that cass' handled it was the right choice so i really don't know what people want from me anymore.

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm reading it as you think Dean's POV about saying yes to Michael was wrong and that because it was wrong, he deserved and needed the beating Cas gave him to the learn the lesson.

 

it's not about that at all, it's about dean thinking on himself and thinking he was all alone in his journey when he's not and never was. just as it was never dean's problem that sam started the apocalypse but rather he did it alone, dean's decision to go to michael wasn't the initial problem, but rather that he wanted to make that choice by himself. it's not about him being wrong or right, he's being alone and he believes he has to be. 

it's rather simple. last season dean had to try to save sam from himself, and now it's sam's turn. at least that's how i see it.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Iju

[trxr4kids]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's an absolutely brutal beatdown and if Cas had let his emotions get further out of hand, he could have killed Dean in an instant. Just because he didn't, doesn't mean Dean deserved this kind of beating. This almost made me hate Castiel. Thankfully, they redeemd him for me

I wish I hadn't watched that clip, it reminds me of my extreme loathing of the entire message of that scene along with what I think was the general message of the season, ie. Dean's a selfish, stupid asshat and everyone is righteously entitled in their verbal and physical abuse of him. It has Singer's (Dean needs to get knocked down a few pegs or words to that effect) grubby fingers all over it.

I remember at one point I posted on TWoP that Castiel was allegedly a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent not an abusive spouse or parent. SMH

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, Iju said:

r was. just as it was never dean's problem that sam started the apocalypse but rather he did it alone, dean's decision to go to michael wasn't the initial problem,

It seems to me you might be missing some of Dean's POV if you're coming to the conclusion that Dean wasn't involved in starting the apocalpyse and that Sam did it alone. He didn't. Dean broke the first seal.

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

It has Singer's (Dean needs to get knocked down a few pegs or words to that effect) grubby fingers all over it.

This is a really interesting observation. I hadn't considered this might be Singer's handiwork. I presumed it was Kripke and Sera but you might be right.

[Iju]

On 09/04/2018 at 12:06 PM, catrox14 said:

It seems to me you might be missing some of Dean's POV if you're coming to the conclusion that Dean wasn't involved in starting the apocalpyse and that Sam did it alone. He didn't. Dean broke the first seal.

no i'm not missing that either, because in a previous episode thread i had noted that and was talking about why dean shouldn't have been so pissed at sam about it as if he wasn't involved either. i guess i should have said "released satan".

but i really don't want to continue anything more on this thread, i believe i've said enough and want to continue elsewhere.

[The Companion]

I just wrote out all my thoughts and the site messed up, so I will try again. I started to read this thread and almost immediately got spoiled, so I apologize for re covering any old ground. I may come back to see others' thoughts. 

I was really excited to see their brother return, but then didn't feel like we got enough. I wanted more something. Conflict? Connection? His wavering felt unearned. I don't know. There was so much unsaid. 

I don't know how I feel about Dean's actions here. I think he is genuinely trying to do what he thinks is right. In Sam, Interrupted he talks about wanting to save everyone. As options get crossed out one by one, he begins to believe that he can save the most people through Michael. Otherwise he is prolonging a war of attrition. On the other hand, he knows the angels. They are dicks. More importantly, they don't value human life at all. This paradise on earth? I don't think it is gonna be particularly awesome. There is peace in heaven by separating people into their own lonely spheres. Their peace may look like that. There is theoretical peace among the angels by requiring absolute obedience. Paradise may be the same here. I can say with absolute certainty that the angels aren't going to bring about a world where everyone happily enjoys their free will. A lot of people are going to die, and the rest will be stuck with either the angels' or Satan's dystopia. Alternatively, everyone dies. There is finally peace on earth because the humans are eradicated. 

What else? While I didn't love the beating, I did think the anger from Bobby and Castiel felt realistic. I loved loved loved that Sam didn't rage out. Despite his anger issues (which he has explored) he dug deep to find faith in his brother instead. I think about the contrast between the scene last year when Sam was going to take on Lilith. The first fight. Then you look at this episode and it is night and day. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the effect is really amazing in my opinion. Both brothers reach out to one another. They find something that I think has been missing for both of them.

[gonzosgirrl]

In my first watch of the series, this episode was my favourite (in a back and forth tie with The End). It's still in my top five, but a little of my love for it is tarnished by the Destiel people (and no small amount of so-called bi-bros) who think that Castiel beating Dean nearly to death was not only justified, but a 'loving' thing to do, because Dean only responds to 'tough love'. It makes me sick, not only for the obvious implication that physically hurting someone is okey-dokey, but also because that assumption about Dean is categorically untrue. Blech.

ETA: they can be (hypocritically, IMO) angry at Dean all they want, but justifying beating him senseless for it is gross.

Edited December 6, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In my first watch of the series, this episode was my favourite (in a back and forth tie with The End). It's still in my top five, but a little of my love for it is tarnished by the Destiel people (and no small amount of so-called bi-bros) who think that Castiel beating Dean nearly to death was not only justified, but a 'loving' thing to do, because Dean only responds to 'tough love'. It makes me sick, not only for the obvious implication that physically hurting someone is okey-dokey, but also because that assumption about Dean is categorically untrue. Blech.

ETA: they can be (hypocritically, IMO) angry at Dean all they want, but justifying beating him senseless for it is gross.

What always annoyed me about the beat down was that it was specifically because Dean "let them down."  He had what he thought were good reasons (and which, TBH, seemed a much more logical alternative than anything the others had--or did--come up with.)  But Dean is "not allowed to give up," no matter what, even when others have done stupider things for worse reasons.  Yes, hypocritical.  

And Cas being angry because he gave up everything for the Cause and it's all Dean's fault?  Way not to take responsibility for your own actions.  I'd imagine most fighters in the losing side of a war they truly believed in are angry, but do they blame their leaders so much for surrendering when the war appears lost?  

Edited December 6, 2019 by ahrtee
I'm obliged to fix my bad grammar when I notice it. Sadly, I don't always notice it in time.

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In my first watch of the series, this episode was my favourite (in a back and forth tie with The End). It's still in my top five, but a little of my love for it is tarnished by the Destiel people (and no small amount of so-called bi-bros) who think that Castiel beating Dean nearly to death was not only justified, but a 'loving' thing to do, because Dean only responds to 'tough love'. It makes me sick, not only for the obvious implication that physically hurting someone is okey-dokey, but also because that assumption about Dean is categorically untrue. Blech.

ETA: they can be (hypocritically, IMO) angry at Dean all they want, but justifying beating him senseless for it is gross.

Yikes on bikes! That is a disturbing read. Adding a romantic element makes it worse, not better. Also, totally agree on the tough love thing. He literally responded to the opposite in the same episode.  Love and faith from his brother. 

I think there is maybe (maybe) some level of explanation that Castiel doesn't have the coping mechanisms of a human. As an angel, people who disagree get smited? Smote? Getting distracted. When his siblings fight, it is world ending. Basically he has the coping mechanisms of a superpowered toddler (see also his liquor store binge). I am angry so I throw a car at your head, but with a literal car. Maybe there is something to that. But that would still not make it right. It just makes him redeemable or understandable. Maybe that is what we get in the future. His character development has been interesting because he is somewhat alien, right? I don't know. I am definitely on Team we don't hit when we are angry especially when the other person is unable to defend himself.

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

What always annoyed me about the beat down was that it was specifically because Dean "let them down."  He had what he thought was good reasons (and which, TBH, seemed a much more logical alternative than anything the others had--or did--come up with.)  But Dean is "not allowed to give up," no matter what, even when others have done stupider things for worse reasons.  Yes, hypocritical.  

And Cas being angry because he gave up everything for the Cause and it's all Dean's fault?  Way not to take responsibility for your own actions.  I'd imagine most fighters in the losing side of a war they truly believed in are angry, but do they blame their leaders so much for surrendering when the war appears lost?  

I think anger is a coping mechanism as is blaming others, so those do read as plausible reactions. But I agree. They have exhausted all their options and things have changed considerably since his defection. I have covered in detail why I don't like Dean's plan above, but I do think he has good reasons.

Hey, did the power of love actually change his mind? Hee. 

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And Cas being angry because he gave up everything for the Cause and it's all Dean's fault?  Way not to take responsibility for your own actions. 

Yeah, Castiel was not so good at doing that in season 5. He blamed Dean in this episode for his own choices. He angrily berated Sam for making the wrong choice in "I Believe the Children..." while conveniently forgetting about his own bad choices made around the same time as Sam's  (ironically Sam wouldn't have been able to make that "wrong choice" if Castiel hadn't let him out of the panic room in the first place.) I don't even know what to say about what Cas did to Anna and how he pretty much blew off the consequences of that which totally blew up in their faces in "The Song Remains the Same" not too long before this episode. And despite obviously succumbing to Famine's influence, Castiel kept insisting he could "stop at any time" just a few episodes earlier.

So while I definitely don't agree with what Castiel did in beating Dean - it was awful - I do think it was in character for Castiel during this time. Denial, including of his own actions, was kind of Cas' thing during this season.

Edited December 7, 2019 by AwesomO4000