S04.E04: Iron In The Fire

[Athena]

Hi, everyone. Just a reminder to watch the tone in your posts. You can state your opinion or disagree with your fellow posters without being a dick. If necessary, step away and don't engage. There is also the Ignore feature. Thank you. 

[Helena Dax]

I think what Carrie did was icky, but that was the point. We're not supposed to think it's romantic or a good idea. It's probably going to be a mess. But I'm not shocked she did it; she had already asked Fara to do it.

 

What happened between Aayan and Carrie is difficult to label, imo. Some part of him wanted it; that's why he rejected Fara's touches, but didn't reject Carrie's. In RL, of course, the fact that you're okay with someone  touching your arm doesn't mean  anything, but I think here it was a way to say he was a bit interested in her. Besides, as I've said, he felt he could say no to Fara, so I see no reason to believe he felt he couldn't say no to Carrie. 

 

And I feel I can't blame her for lying to him and manipulating him, even if  it's through sex, because it seems that's something spies and secret agents often do in RL and fiction: Philip and Elizabeth, James Bond, Mata-Hari...

 

The age difference doesn't bother me at all.

 

I like him, btw. I wonder what's the deal about the medecine. I also liked the Other Carrie. She looks smart and not as unstable as Carrie.  Can't wait for a face to face between  them!

[Milburn Stone]

And I feel I can't blame her for lying to him and manipulating him, even if  it's through sex, because it seems that's something spies and secret agents often do in RL and fiction: Philip and Elizabeth, James Bond, Mata-Hari...

 

Good point. We (and by "we" I mean everyone who watches The Americans, which is probably everybody on this thread) love it when Philip and Elizabeth do this stuff. But that's because most of their prey are sad sacks and losers. While Aayan engenders a large dose of our sympathy and identification for all he's gone through, and because he seems (so far) like a decent kid. That accounts for the entire difference in audience reaction. But if you take audience identification with the "victim" out of the equation, what Carrie is doing and what Philip and Elizabeth do all the time is pretty much the same thing.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

...And I feel I can't blame her for lying to him and manipulating him, even if it's through sex, because it seems that's something spies and secret agents often do in RL and fiction: Philip and Elizabeth, James Bond, Mata-Hari...

Now I'm wondering if the writers' purpose in creating this plot was to just flip genders on the traditional mature James Bond seducing the foreign pawn played by the young starlet, and they didn't realize how modern viewers would still see it. It is weird that nobody (as far as I remember) ever considered that James Bond was taking advantage of the pretty young twenty-ish girl whom he used for spy purposes.

...I wonder what's the deal about the medecine....

Right, the medicine! I think I forgot to post the theory I had on that: Maybe it's an antidote for a planned bio terror attack. Edited October 25, 2014 by shapeshifter

[lidarose9]

Being a lifelong fan of John LeCarre's novels, I know that using sex is part and parcel of the "intelligence" world. Fucking the target is standard operating procedure. If fucking a guy will save lives, it's an easy price to pay, right? From Carrie's point of view, she's saving the world by fucking this guy. From a governmental standpoint, if it's permissible to torture people, it's certainly permissible to fuck them. To co-opt the ones we need, we lie, we cheat, we steal, we fuck, we torture, we kill. This is just reality. Carrie is following the usual playbook.

 

The reason it feels so ugly and wrong to us in this case because here we have been able to get to know the "villain" or "victim" beyond a mere name and a face. We have been shown a sweet kid, confused, trying to just live his life, caught up in things he doesn't understand, doesn't want to understand, torn between conflicting loyalties. In other words, NOT a fanatic, not an ideologue, not a terrorist, not even a sympathizer. Horrified at his family being murdered, horrified at Sandy's murder. Accused of being a wimp if he doesn't take up arms to defend his murdered family, while being disgusted at the people doing the accusing. He can't win, and he knows it.  

 

Like so many people caught up in this kind of non-war, war zone, he looks for short-term answers to immediate problems, thinking I can just do this one thing. I have to do this one thing, it's family, it's an emergency. But taking that one small step, one tiny step put him in the cross-hairs. And now he's toast. He will be (and is being) victimized by "his own people" on every side -- everyone trying to use him, abuse him, manipulate him, even his so-called friends -- and he knows very well these foreigners are no good. He is pretending to believe there is a way out because he can't stand to face the truth. He is toast. Whatever his failings, I pity him intensely.

 

I think we all know Carrie is an absolutely unbelievable character to begin with, but even within the let's-pretend world of this show, she's gone over the edge. Those closest to her sense it, see it - but for whatever reason, feel compelled to allow her to go on with this crusade. She is a manic depressive riding the knife edge of mania. Even when properly medicated, people with this illness can have issues -- issues with seeing things clearly and responding appropriately, issues with judgment, issues with self knowledge. Carrie is using her position in the CIA to enact some egoistic power play, some savior/martyr dynamic that was left raw and bleeding after Brody's death. Everybody knows it, but nobody seems to know how to stop it. Meanwhile, people "on the ground" have died, will die.  

 

This show is very hard for me to watch, and I may not be able to continue. It really upsets me. We're accustomed to our protagonists being good guys, people we can root for, but Carrie is not a good guy. I appreciate that she is a complicated, complex character. But in her person, she also exemplifies the worst parts of our country's sense of self, and she is using that place and those people as a canvas upon which to paint black and white pictures, ones that fit the right pigeonholes, to make a story come out with the "right" ending. And it has gotten all mucked up with her personal sense of self. She has a warped perspective. I imagine this is a risk for all "operatives" in this shadow world, if they don't get away long enough or often enough. I think Quinn is there to show us what the eventual outcome would be, if one is lucky enough to survive to the end of a career. The sadness and self hate in his eyes is heartbreaking. The suicide statistics for veterans speaks for itself. 

 

[Occasional Hope]

The actor who plays Aayan is 21.  They are acting like he is already in med school not just pre-med so he must be in his early 20s on the show probably not a teen

 

I'd say the character could be as young as 18.  Pakistan is one of those countries that starts med school at the bachelor's degree level, not like the US system of pre-med then grad med school.

 

E.g. http://www.aku.edu/admissions/undergraduate/medicine/Pages/MBBS-Programme.aspx

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I think what Carrie did was icky, but that was the point. We're not supposed to think it's romantic or a good idea. It's probably going to be a mess. But I'm not shocked she did it; she had already asked Fara to do it.

It did seem kind of creepy to me, but what really bugged me is how the the scene was played out and how lame Carrie's whole seduction technique was. Between Claire Danes's acting and the writing to me it played out like a scene from a bad porno movie. I am surprised they didn't have her "accidentally" drop stuff around him when she was making the bed so that she could bend over in front of him, or have her "accidentally" spill water on her shirt and ask him for help changing into something dry. But I guess that is what this has come to, and as long as Carrie doesn't end up pregnant I should probably be happy.

[John Potts]

So glad we got back to actual spy stuff, which TPTB actually do pretty well. The whole bit with Saul/Carrie playing the ISI actually made me think the CIA might actually be competent here (we even saw that the CIA Station is aware that Carrie is setting up a subsection within the Islamabad station, which was nice). Liked that Carrie also made the call that following Aayan was less important than following the "Not Dead" terrorist (which I totally called!) - I'm not sure it was the right call, but it was a valid choice in the heat of the moment.

 

I wasn't surprised that Carrie seduced Aayan - I was mildly squicked but I don't know how I'd feel if it was a young woman being seduced by (say) James Bond or Philip Jennings, but that's all I'll say on the matter.

 

Electric Boogaloo Man, is that professor pathetic. Loved that his wife reminded him that his attempt at a career resulted in him plagiarizing. Ha!

Constantinople Why would the ambassador's husband get involved?

 

Probably a combination of boredom, a desire to seem important and possibly whatever inducements he was offered in the first place (money, sex or whatever). There's probably a certain element of desire to shift the power balance in their marriage because he can now torpedo his wife's career by letting it slip that she was the source of the leak. Glad she kicked him to the curb!

[stillshimpy]

I agree.  I think Carrie accurately assessed that Aayan was vulnerable to seduction -- and by her -- but that she didn't pay heed to the possible consequences.

 

Whereas that was, by far, the least comfortable "seduction" scene I've seen on TV in a very long time, I think Carrie believed it was necessary because she had such a short time-frame.   What was really weird and horrible in all of that was the look Carrie gave herself in the bathroom mirror before heading in to make up the couch.  She looked profoundly saddened and grossed out by herself for a moment, before apparently strengthening her resolve.  She's got three days to get Aayan to reveal where his uncle is, I think believed that was necessary. 

 

That was a really disturbing and ultimately sadder than hell scene.  He's a young, traumatized person, who is terrified.  To further underline how young he is, he's worried about how Kings College will react to his expulsion, in the midst of a day where he knows he's been pursed by ISI on top of all the other horrible things he'd been through lately.   

 

I think the show meant for me to fully understand that this was a truly low thing for Carrie to be doing.  That Carrie was also aware of it.  What made it rather sickening was that Aayan just seemed so vulnerable throughout the episode.  It was such a merciless act on Carrie's part and that Carrie knew that she was off to do something hideously manipulative and potentially damaging to the other person (in the long run) was just....well, I keep seeing the word "icky" used and I completely understand that, but it was beyond that for me.  

 

It was soul-shriveling levels off-putting.  Not because of an age difference, but because it was just profoundly freaking sad on top of all else.  Pitiable, miserable, desperate and damaging.  Icky indeed.  I can understand why Carrie did this, simply because Aayan's uncle is considered a substantial threat to the lives of others, specifically Americans, but in reality, even simply to Aayan's other family members.  He's a dangerous man all around.  It was still a really difficult thing to witness.  

Edited November 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[jeansheridan]

Michael O'Keefe is turning into a scene stealer. He reminds me of Philip Seymore Hoffman. Cynical, practical, results oriented, sly.

[Pagali]

The actor who plays Aayan is probably less uncomfortable with the love scenes and more excited by the fact that no one knew his name months ago, and now he's making out with Claire Danes.

 

Yeah... except that he already won acclaim and awards for his performance in Life of Pi!  Not accurate to say nobody knew his name.

 

Come to think of it... he had a better chance against the tiger than against Carrie!

 

And also... there was Nimrat Kaur as the new villainess!! She gave a marvelous performance in The Lunchbox last year! They're really bringing in some top quality Indian actors for this show.

[Harry24]

Nimrat Kaur as the new villainess!! She gave a marvelous performance in The Lunchbox last year!

 

I'm just catching up on this season now, but ... OMG, I did not recognize her from The Lunchbox.  She looked familiar, but here she's like The Lunchbox woman's terrifying sister.

[Maisie Palmzer]

On 10/19/2014 at 10:11 PM, VioletMarx said:

Duck! Slimy as ever.

This show is so much more interesting when it's about espionage than when they're talking about who wuvs who. The scene between the Ambassador and her husband was the most interesting one yet this season.

 

Carrie is now the least interesting part of this whole show.  I feel like everything comes to a screeching halt whens she appears.

I am binge watching Homeland, and my husband said the same thing.....Duck! Slimy as ever!