Will Scarlet, Knave of Hearts: Bloody Hell!

[Mari]

^^^^That makes more sense than "Will and Ana broke up after--before---during their happy ending and decided to start dating other people."

[Curio]

Good for Socha. He's a great actor and deserves way better than what the writers gave him during Season 4. It still makes me irate that we'll never find out what the hell happened to Ana and Will when all the writers had to do was throw in one line of dialogue explaining it in 22 episodes, but you can't do that and "sacrifice Regina's story" apparently.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'd be fine with A&E retconning Will's story to have taken place pre-Wonderland at this point. It wouldn't do too much damage, I don't think. His behavior is pre-Wonderland, and the only thing that doesn't really line up is the timelines. Wonderland looked like it took place during season 2. When Will is first shown it's during stormy weather that's lined up with Rumple releasing the dementor/wraith. Alice and Cyrus later come across road damage, etc. that appears to be left from the events of season 2. So at most Wonderland maybe stretched from the beginning of season 2 to possibly 3a at the most (when the heroes are never around). So they'd maybe have to add a future Once episode scene that has stormy weather/road damage, and they could say that Wonderland took place after that.

Or they could mention that Will managed to get his hands on a magic mirror and peaced out of Storybrooke. Although that would damage his character more, because I still refuse to believe that post-Wonderlad Will would hook up with another girl after all that he went through.

Anyways, good for Socha! Get outta there as fast as you can!!!

[KingOfHearts]

As far as I am concerned, I'm going to pretend that Will was not in S4 at all. It was all a dream, or a mindworm.

Looking back, it made absolutely no sense. It was a big retcon. Surely there was someone else Robin could talk to, or Belle to date for angst. There's a whole town full of characters for that. You don't have to take them from other series just to screw them up.

Edited September 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's why it *seems* that they had other plans for Will that had to change.  Otherwise, it makes no freak'in sense.  But then again, not much on this show makes any sense.  

 

I've heard speculation that they hired Will on before they found out they could do "Frozen".  Even if that were the case, Frozen was over by the end of 4A.   And they could easily have done whatever they wanted to do with Will by cutting the repetitive scenes in 4A (pretty much anything that didn't have to do with Frozen, plus filler like Elsa running after Vision Anna for an entire episode).

Edited September 4, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I've heard speculation that they hired Will on before they found out they could do "Frozen".  Even if that were the case, Frozen was over by the end of 4A.   And they could easily have done whatever they wanted to do with Will by cutting the repetitive scenes in 4A (pretty much anything that didn't have to do with Frozen, plus filler like Elsa running after Vision Anna for an entire episode).

This is probably a situation where we need that quote about needing enough time to tell Regina's story, so not everything else can fit.

 

Heck, they could have given Will a bigger role just by only having Rumple give the speech about cleaving himself from the dagger once, or maybe by having Emma only hesitate outside that door in the mansion for maybe a minute instead of half an hour.

[justcris]

I'm so happy about this piece of news. Socha was being completely wasted in this show.

 

It's sad that the writers couldn't think of a way to use his character, but at least now it's over.

[Mathius]

S4 Will could very easily be retconned to be pre-OUATIW, and I wish A&E would just own up to their mistakes and do that. But whatever, it's what I consider to be the case anyway, unless they can somehow bring Socha and Rigby in as guest stars for one episode to explain what they had planned and wrap it up quickly. Either way, no more waste of Will. Good.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

Interview with Michael Socha. http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/michael-socha/39154/michael-socha-interview-the-aliens-this-is-england

Poor poor Socha! He talks about how it messed him up being on contract for a whole year, and basically doing nothing.

[Curio]

Wow, I love how Michael doesn't sugar coat anything.
 

How did that experience compare to working on something like Once Upon A Time, then, for US network TV?

Fuck me, yeah. Massive, massive deal. When I first got there and did the spin-off [Once Upon A Time In Wonderland], I was working an awful lot. It was great to work in the green screen studios and all that sort of stuff. It opened my eyes and I got to see a completely different world. I got to see LA. I got to live in Vancouver for two years, eventually.

But then I joined the main show and I wasn’t really used, so I found myself in Vancouver for a long time not really doing owt, which fucked me up a bit really. I thought, if I’m going to be here, fucking do something with me. I’ve got a boy at home and it’s crucifying me being here and not working. If I was here working, I’d feel I was doing something at least, but it kind of fucked me up a bit really.

Wonderland was incredible, but Once Upon A Time, I found it quite soul-destroying. My mam came out for three months eventually because I just wasn’t doing owt. I found it sort of unfair. It wasn’t the fault of the powers that be, it was just the way the cookie crumbled I suppose, but I didn’t really enjoy it by the end.

I didn't realize Socha had a son. Damn, I'd be soul-crushed, too. What's really sad is that we always see reports of the main cast welcoming the newbies and going to events with them, like Colin inviting the Frozen and Camelot crews to Whitecaps games, but Socha still had his mom fly in for three months because of depression. That's brutal. I respect him for saying it isn't the fault of the powers that be, but it totally is. I'm sorry, but I'd give Adam & Eddy the double-deuce and never want to work with them again. Will was such an interesting character and they didn't do shit with him. There were so many avenues they could have gone with his character on the main show and they decided to do the fucking Lily, Author, Queens of Darkness, and Operation Mongoose plots instead.
 

The fan reaction was definitely that your character, Will, was under-served on the main show.
Originally, they asked me to come and said I was going to be in all these episodes. So the contract was written. The fans are so loyal to the characters that are already there and there’s so much that they have to conclude with the characters that were already there, I think I became more of a hindrance than anything. I didn’t really know what I was doing there.

I think this puts to rest any rumors about any special Wonderland contract that bled into the main show. This sounds like A&E liked him on Wonderland and wanted him to stay, so they negotiated how many episodes they wanted him for and realized they should make him a regular. And then they backed out on their word because, "there's just so many characters and we can't sacrifice Regina's story."
 

Might your character reappear in future seasons of Once Upon A Time?
They didn’t kill me. I get on really well with the writers, Eddie and Adam [Kitsis and Horowitz]. I don’t know. I’m not the sort of fucker to go pushing, but if they asked me to go back I would. I’d need like a guarantee though that I’m going to be doing something worthwhile. I don’t want to be doing a job where I’m not doing a job, just sitting around in my flat just bored.

How do these actors who get screwed over by Adam & Eddy always stay friends with them? It's their show, their vision, so they have the ultimate blame for how terribly they handled Will's character. But somehow, A&E have managed to still get Ruby and Neal back on the show even after what they did to those characters under regular contracts.

 

I read the Lightbearers fanfic over the hiatus, and when comparing that story to the main show, it pisses me off that there's so much story potential for Will that was never used on screen. That fic utilized Will brilliantly and now I'm sad that we'll never have a Hook/Will snarky friendship or the potential reunion between Will and his BFF Alice whenever the show attempts to cover Aladdin and Jasmine in the future.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

That interview seriously breaks my heart.

*begins to weep*

I need a hug.

Curse you A&E!!!!!!!!

[Rumsy4]

Poor Socha! For his sake, I hope he never comes back, and A&E would just say that S4 was pre-OUATiW-Will.

I always wonder how Emilie de Ravin feels about being unconscious or asleep in half her scenes. Or how Ginny and Josh feel about how asinine their characters have become. This Show badly wastes its potential sometimes.

There was a recent hubbub about an actor from the 100, who was a series regular, but got practically nothing to do. He wasn't quiet about his resentment over it, especially as there were apparently other issues as well. However, most actors don't want to burn bridges, unless they've "made it" like Sebastian Stan, or even Jamie Dornan, and could care less about returning for a cameo on network television. So, I don't wonder at people like Ory or MRJ returning for minor appearances.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

I need a hug.

 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ Thank you, Curio!

Hugs for everyone who loved ouatiw and Will Scarlet.

[KAOS Agent]

It's not smart to run down the showrunners, so he made sure not to blame them. Then he proceeded to demonstrate why they suck. You know, they let Megan Ory out of her contract when they realized they had nothing for her, so I don't understand why they couldn't have done the same for Michael. This guy missed his family. He has a kid. Don't jerk him around if you don't have plans to use him. They knew they didn't have time for him, so they should have let him go.

[Mathius]

He says variations on the same stuff here: http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/once-upon-a-time/news/a785951/michael-socha-confirms-once-upon-a-time-exit/

He also confirms the writers actually gave him an apology for screwing him over.

Man, I feel so sorry for the guy. That would be a nightmare for any serious actor.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

When given the option of bringing back either Zelena or Will as a recurring character in 4B, I just don't understand how Will loses out. But oh well, it's probably for the best for Socha in the long run. His new show The Aliens looks way better than anything OUAT has put out in a long while. 

[YaddaYadda]

Will wasn't going to fix adultery queen.  Zelena in their mind was. Then they made her pregnant.

 

Seriously though, poor Socha. It's a situation that sucks really hard. If it was his contract bleeding onto the mothership, fine, maybe they really had nothing to offer him. But to sign him, they must've have had a storyline in mind for him. But hey, Frozen, Snow Queen, Queens of Darkness that made no sense and a horrible Author plot were probably much better ideas.

[Camera One]

When given the option of bringing back either Zelena or Will as a recurring character in 4B, I just don't understand how Will loses out. 

 

Will is not a villain, and as YaddaYadda said, Zelena could provide an obstacle to Regina/Robin.  Though really, both Will and Zelena supposedly fulfil the "comedic" quotient for the show.  

[Faemonic]

Working on this show described as crucifying, soul-destroying, and with all the f-bombs...and I thought it was bad from this side of the television screen! :( Poor Socha!

[Camera One]

I just realized there was an interview up there.  They really put him through the ringer.  How could their planning be so freak'in horrible?  Could they not forsee during 4A that they had no room for him in 4B?  It makes no sense.  They should have figured it out two episodes into 4A.  Between Anna & Elsa, Ingrid, Regina/Robin, and the dumb Hat Box, it was obvious there was no screentime left.  They literally had him digging bottles in the sand along with the other main cast members they didn't know what to do with.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Camera One

[OnceUponAJen]

"They've got a lot of main cast, that the fans are so loyal to and so desperate to hear their stories. So this new dude with no real reason [to be there]... he ain't important."

Good grief....so they actually are aware that they have "a lot" of main cast that viewers want to see? And yet before every season, the new hires list seems overwhelming. Just....bad planning all the way around. For the past couple years, I could tell by how many storylines they had in the air that the plots weren't going to be resolved in any satisfactory way because of time limitations. Such a bad deal for Socha. I understand his frustration.

[icewolf]

Will Scarlett has the be the biggest example of dropped character on this show. I will never understand why they made him a main and gave him nothing to do. Just terrible planning. The showrunners were too distracted by Frozen and the Queens of Darkness. A two parter with Will Scarlett would have been better.

[Curio]

Will Scarlett has the be the biggest example of dropped character on this show. I will never understand why they made him a main and gave him nothing to do. Just terrible planning.

 

I don't know if it's terrible planning or just terrible writing decisions, because there were several storylines Will was perfectly set up for during Season 4 and the writers never bothered to use him. Will had extensive experience in the Wonderland series living without a heart, so he was the perfect candidate to let Emma know that Hook was showing heartless symptoms. Will was a thief and could have worked with Hook to steal his heart back from Rumple, similar to that 4B storyline with Belle. Will apparently knew Marian well and should have given Robin some hints that she wasn't acting like normal. Will was the perfect candidate to have a conversation with Belle about dating someone who lusted after power more than love, so he could directly relate to her issues with Rumple.

 

I think what eventually killed Will was Operation Mongoose and the Zelena retcon. I refuse to believe the Zelena/Marian/Zarian stuff was planned out before 4A, and I think the writers had a lot of back-peddling to fix Outlaw Queen, and then got distracted by the shiny new Zelena toy when they were able to lock down Bex for an entire half arc. Thus, Will had to go.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

The Zelena stuff wasn't planned from the way Bex Mader tells the story. She was called up sometime during 4A (I guess when they started writing 4B), and asked if she could return. She got all excited, she was driving, pulled to the side of the road, and they told her to wait for it! Zelena will also be pregnant by Robin. 

 

Zelena was just a quick fix for their problem. And while I think Bex Mader is a delightful, hilarious person, it's too bad she was available.

 

Plus the other thing with Will is that there was an expectations that everyone would know who he was. If I hadn't watched the pilot for Wonderland, I would never have known who Will Scarlet was, I wouldn't have understood why he was breaking into a library to steal Alice in Wonderland, or why he would have kept a picture of the Red Queen (or whatever).  I had no idea he was a part of the Merry Men, that he and Robin were friends, or anything like that.

 

There were tons of misses in the way they introduced the character.

 

This show bites a lot more than it can chew, and they lose interest in characters and storylines when the next "OMG! wouldn't be amazing if [insert idea here]..."

Edited March 8, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[HoodlumSheep]

^ honestly they basically reintroduced him. His character was reset to pre-ouatiw, which was very upsetting because they kind of threw Scarlet Queen (will x anastasia) and a big chunk of the Wonderland journey under the bus. He was a wonderful character in the spinoff series.

I'm never going to let it go. It was an insult to the Wonderland (and especially Scarlet Queen) fans. A total slap in the face.

#ForeverResentful

Edited March 8, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Mathius]

Again, they really need to just officially declare Will on the show to be pre-OUATIW, it makes much more sense.

[HoodlumSheep]

Again, they really need to just officially declare Will on the show to be pre-OUATIW, it makes much more sense.

Do it, A&E! Just do it! *insert shia labeouf gif here*

Of all the times you've thrown continuity out the window and created giant plot holes, this would be a perfect opportunity to do so, again!!!! Everyone would actually be willing to forgive you for once too!

[scenicbyway]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. Poor guy got paid but didn't have to put in the 16 hour days, aww. Give me a break. It also seemed like he didn't hang out with the cast either outside of work.

[Delphi]

I think actors would prefer to work in addition to getting paid. Socha is a good actor who could have found work. But he's not well known enough to just ask out of his contract. It's not like Ginny who has nothing to do but works with her husband and has her kid on set. Most of the other actors have a temporary home in Canada for when their shooting so they can have their family with them. And Meghan after two seasons had the courage to ask out because they weren't doing anything with her character. She was still getting paid, but it's not always worth it.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Delphi

[tri4335]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. Poor guy got paid but didn't have to put in the 16 hour days, aww. Give me a break. It also seemed like he didn't hang out with the cast either outside of work.

 

I feel a bit sorry for him as it is hard to get promised interesting work and then have it fall through. But I have to call a little BS that he could not travel and see his son or pay for his son to come and see him.  I'm mean he was getting paid a good salary and we've seen other cast members show up all over place with a harder filming schedule.  Granted maybe he couldn't afford the private jet like Jen to flit away for the weekend but I doubt he was trapped in Vancouver for 10 months. I think the article may have left out some details that didn't paint the story they wanted to tell, which seemed to  lean towards pointing out the pitfalls of going over to the American side of the business.  That being said I do think A & E or ABC tied him and others up not letting them look for work.

[orza]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. Poor guy got paid but didn't have to put in the 16 hour days, aww. Give me a break. It also seemed like he didn't hang out with the cast either outside of work.

Agreed. Michael Socha sounds like a big ole manbaby whining about first world problems. He was being paid half a million dollars or so to be on call for 10 months. That's not a hardship in any world. Acting is just a job like any other. Some people throw themselves into their work and others are just there to collect a paycheck. He went from a leading role in a show with a small cast to a supporting role in a show with a large cast. How much focus and screen time was he expecting? He mentioned in one of the articles that being under contract and stuck on the bench happens in British TV, too, and did indeed happen to people he worked with on another show.

 

MS was not separated from his son for almost a year as someone claimed in the media thread. That's bogus. He did go back to England a few times to visit him. Actors get their scripts in advance of filming so he always knew if he was in an episode or not, Socha had the financial means to fly over to England for at least a week or two every month if he wanted to. He could have managed his time like Emilie de Ravin or MRJ and just fly in for his scenes but spend the bulk of his time at home in the UK.

 

Meghan Ory got released from her contract because she asked. That doesn't take any courage, it's just career management. Networks are prepared for that and will usually accommodate actors, especially people in supporting roles. Nobody wants to hang onto an actor who doesn't want to be there. Socha never asked and no one was gonna come around and check on his fee-fees every week. Instead he chose to stick it out in Vancouver for the duration and feel sorry for himself.

Edited March 9, 2016 by orza

[justcris]

I totally get what he's saying. Even if he is getting paid, being under a contract and not working means no exposure, which does nothing for him. Kind of like an athlete who's on the team but doesn't play, who wants that?! Just because he makes more money than most people doesn't mean he has to happy about this. Some people aren't made to be idle.

Also, Vancouver is hella far from London, I've done that trip and trust me, it's not easy. It's doable sure, but not really something you can do every week. Also, if he wasn't there, then he definitely wouldn't be written into the show. I think he kind of had to be available in case things changed and they needed him.

[Curio]

MS was not separated from his son for almost a year as someone claimed in the media thread. That's bogus. He did go back to England a few times to visit him.

 

I believe you're referring to my comment, and I didn't mean he physically couldn't see his kid for a year. I used it more as a turn of phrase. I'm sure he was able to take a few trips and visit family/friends or have Skype calls, but I'm guessing it was a hassle because Vancouver to UK is a long trip, and since he was a regular and not recurring, he was probably more limited in being able to leave whenever he wanted. I'm also guessing it's not the best feeling in the world knowing you're stuck in a fairly new city without much family and friends, and on top of that, the story line you were promised for your character got thrown in the garbage, so you can't do much of anything because you're under contract and always have to be on call just in case the writers need to use the character. Regardless of how much money he was making, that's not an ideal situation. Just because people make more money doesn't mean they suddenly become emotionless robots who aren't allowed to complain when things go awry.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Curio

[Mathius]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. Poor guy got paid but didn't have to put in the 16 hour days, aww. Give me a break. It also seemed like he didn't hang out with the cast either outside of work.

Um, you know, many actors don't just do their job for the money, they do it because they have a real passion for acting. Socha wasn't looking for an easy paycheck, he wanted to ACT. And when he was made a freaking series REGULAR, he had every reason to be mad that he didn't get much of a chance to. I'm sorry, but Socha got screwed over by ABC, no ifs, ands, or buts.

He went from a leading role in a show with a small cast to a supporting role in a show with a large cast. How much focus and screen time was he expecting?

Again, series REGULAR. That should mean at least more focus and screen time than the random special guests coming in for the arcs like the Frozen crew or Queens of Darkness.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Mathius

[formerlyfreedom]

Disagreeing is fine, and even encouraged here. Please remember to be civil in your disagreement, per the Social Contract;

The Social Contract

My golden rule for forums is to pretend you are at someone else's party. Different opinions are welcomed and debate is encouraged but if you can't converse without name calling or flaming then you'll get The Size Nines out the door.

 

It's coming close to crossing the line - please be mindful.

[KingOfHearts]

You know, after rewatching a little bit of 4A, it makes total sense that Will is pre-OUATIW. The squirrelly manner in which he responds to questions about Ana fit what happened to their relationship. Unless he gets some sort of follow-up later down the line, there's absolutely no good reason to say otherwise. I'm sure A&E wanted it to be post-OUATIW in order to keep Will's story open for the future. The way its written, I almost want to say it's intentionally ambiguous. 

Edited July 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree Will seemed totally pre-OUATIW.  Unfortunately, I think A&E really did intend for it to be post, or they would have just said "Can't say".  They did intend for Will to have a storyline, and that was probably dependent on us NOT knowing where the Red Queen was or her fate.  They should have said after the fact that it was actually pre-OUATIW since it fits.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The only real continuity error with it being pre-OUATIW is that the first episode takes place in the aftermath of (or during) the wraith attack. When Will is introduced, there's a thunderstorm in Storybrooke with wind blowing everywhere. But that's not too hard to headcanon differently. 

[Camera One]

Yeah, I don't think they actually said the word "wraith" onscreen, so one could have thought it was a random storm.

[Shanna Marie]

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Yeah, I don't think they actually said the word "wraith" onscreen, so one could have thought it was a random storm.

And goodness knows how many storm-like events have hit Storybrooke. It could just as easily have been when all the hooded Dark Ones were roaming the town.

[legaleagle53]

Well, since Cinderella is coming back for Season 6, maybe we'll get a throwaway line or two from her about what happened to her stepsister and brother-in-law.  Adam and Eddie certainly owe us at least that much.

[InsertWordHere]

On July 15, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Camera One said:

Yeah, I don't think they actually said the word "wraith" onscreen, so one could have thought it was a random storm.

I know this comment is two months old, but you're right, they never said that it was the wraith that caused that storm. Responding further in the Continuity thread.