Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[GreyBunny]

If they're going to do that then they should go all out!  Let's make it be Beth's dream.  She's having a vivid dream or hallucination after guzzling the moonshine back at the cabin with Daryl. There were complaints that Beth had no reaction to it, so, two problems solved!

 

The one thing that makes me sad about Beth's death is that there won't be a possibility of her getting together with Noah.  Not that she needed to be in a relationship with anyone, but they were awfully cute together and their interactions were charming and genuine.

 

ETA: 

 

The spoons thing won't work, not the way they're thinking it will.  It will let Gimple know that he succeeded in doing his job - making people care about a character before killing her off.  Send the spoons, let him know he did his job correctly.

 

Besides, what would the writers do?  Often this kind of thing backfires hilariously.  The fans of a couple on Days of Our Lives spent a lot of money to send the show some expensive bedding to let the show know they wanted that couple to have a sex scene.  The producers used the bedding to give another couple a sex scene.  TWD, if they bothered to do anything, might introduce some young blonde named Britney or Bethany and have her and Daryl have drunken sex on a pile of plastic spoons.

 

Be careful what you wish for!

Edited December 3, 2014 by GreyBunny

[diebartdie]

Not all Beth fans are 14 (I remember the first moon walk when it was happening and being from the south, Im old enough that a 14 year old kid could easily be my grand child), not all Beth fans wanted her to hook up with Daryl (I liked her as an individual) most Beth fans noticed her from the beginning, not just the "Still" episodes. Not all (probably very very few) Beth fans have her as their favorite character (mine is Carol, followed by Michonne). Finally, I can't speak for all Beth fans but I can speak for me and I'm not pissed Beth is dead (it was sad and it makes the show so much bleaker), Im pissed that her final scene made no sense and did not provide the pay-off her arc that started last season and culminated this season ought to have brought and frankly, for me that final scene would have worked (a little better) if Beth had at least drawn blood when she attacked Dawn.

 

Not all Beth fans are "idiots".....and for that matter, not all 14 year old kids are idiots either.

[JBody]

Yeah mission accomplished, TPTB. But Beth should have stabbed her in the neck, at least. I felt so bad for EK on TTD, sitting next to Kirkman. Ugh. I read she only found out in ep7 she was going to die. She said Dawn overreached with her demand for Noah, and Beth then overreached too. Ok fine. But the stabbing was stupid. And she should've had more of a moment with Daryl et al. Just a weird, confusing, poorly executed ending to a character I would have liked to have seen reintegrate into the group, because she had changed from last season quite a bit. But Gimple got what he set out to do: make people grieve a character whom many felt was peripheral. But the unintended consequence (I'm assuming) was pissing a lot of fans off with how it ultimately went down.

[mandolin]

I think reintegrating Beth into the group would've put her back to where she was before. Regardless of her slightly upgraded walker killing skills, she still seemed fairly meek and quiet overall. I think within the group she'd be the same Beth. Maybe a bit closer to people. YMMV, of course. (Do people still say that?)

[JBody]

I do! I think it would've been interesting because she wasn't the same Beth, the pollyanna she was at the funeral home. She, of all people, was the one telling Dawn to get real. But YMMV ;)

[Ocean Chick]

I'm quite surprised over the outrage that EK only found out a few weeks before that her character was going to die.  This has been true of almost ALL the character deaths.  The actors have talked about it before.  The actor who's character is dying finds out a few weeks before (which would be when the previous episode is being shot) so that they have a few days to process it before they decide how they want to break the news to the rest of the cast.  So EK was being treated exactly the same as everyone else.  So why are people so upset about it?

[Iguessnot]

Because she's a special snowflake.

[Portia]

Because she's a special snowflake.

Those were the exact words that came into my mind when I read Ocean Chick's question!

[ghoulina]

I'm quite surprised over the outrage that EK only found out a few weeks before that her character was going to die.  This has been true of almost ALL the character deaths.  The actors have talked about it before.  The actor who's character is dying finds out a few weeks before (which would be when the previous episode is being shot) so that they have a few days to process it before they decide how they want to break the news to the rest of the cast.  So EK was being treated exactly the same as everyone else.  So why are people so upset about it?

 

Agreed. I think it makes more sense for it to be a bit of a surprise for the actor as well as the viewers. If you know too long, you might start telegraphing it in earlier episodes. I don't see it as a big deal. 

 

And I definitely am not one who thinks Beth was sacrificed to give Daryl, and Daryl alone, a story. Pain. Angst. Whatever. It's going to effect all of them, especially Maggie (although given her failure to even mention her sister more than once this season that's going to be a tough pill for many to swallow). Personally, I think EK is on a much lower level as far as acting skills go, and if *I* were running the show I might opt to kill her off rather than have to choose whether to give her more to do or keep her in the background year after year after year. 

 

I do think they executed the thing in an entirely ridiculous and sloppy way that made little sense, and I can see why people would be mad at how she went out. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by ghoulina

[Pete Martell]

I think it's because this is the first time an actor has let the mask slip that they were OK with this and it was all fine. Emily also suggested in an interview that Andrew and Norman didn't know until the last minute (which TPTB denied), leading some fans to believe they were kept in the dark because of a conspiracy as they would have fought to keep her.

[Pete Martell]

Not all Beth fans are 14 (I remember the first moon walk when it was happening and being from the south, Im old enough that a 14 year old kid could easily be my grand child), not all Beth fans wanted her to hook up with Daryl (I liked her as an individual) most Beth fans noticed her from the beginning, not just the "Still" episodes. Not all (probably very very few) Beth fans have her as their favorite character (mine is Carol, followed by Michonne). Finally, I can't speak for all Beth fans but I can speak for me and I'm not pissed Beth is dead (it was sad and it makes the show so much bleaker), Im pissed that her final scene made no sense and did not provide the pay-off her arc that started last season and culminated this season ought to have brought and frankly, for me that final scene would have worked (a little better) if Beth had at least drawn blood when she attacked Dawn.

 

Not all Beth fans are "idiots".....and for that matter, not all 14 year old kids are idiots either.

 

I think one of the reasons some fans think it's all about Daryl is because most of the Talking Dead and interview focus with Beth since this time last season has been about Daryl. Even one of the petitions mentioned Daryl never being able to love again, or whatever it said.

 

I always liked Beth. When I started watching the show, before catching up, she was just this girl in a knit cap who stood in the background and sometimes held the baby, but I thought Emily had a presence even then. I always defended Beth because of the constant fan attacks that babysitting meant she was worthless and if she couldn't turn into Rambo, she should die.

 

That's one of the things that makes me sad about her going - I liked that she was never written as ever becoming tough enough to take down the world. She became stronger and trusted herself more, but she was still a young person who was struggling and fumbling. She was never going to be a Rick or a Daryl or a Michonne or a Carol. That wasn't her role. 

 

I think the show presenting this type of message and then ultimately ending it in a very suicidal, fatalistic way (essentially saying she "died" in the hospital and then officially died in those last moments) is one of the reasons some fans are so thrown. It sends a mixed message, especially when you remember that her suicide attempt was referenced this season for the first time in years.

 

I really, really wish they'd either let her kill Dawn, or just had some thing where she was running with Noah to get him away from the hospital group and she ended up getting shot in the head, or something. 

 

The way they did it is always going to nag at me.

[Constantinople]

What I am most bothered about is that Beth chose to either non-fatally stab an armed woman, just because she wanted to leave with a giant FU to Dawn; or, she's the most incompetent wanna-be murderer ever.

 

 

Gimple said that he began writing for Beth's death back in season 4.  There was over a year of planning that went into this.

 

Then Gimple & Co screwed the proverbial zombie pooch.

 

I don't mind that Beth died, and I can see that a prisoner exchange could go very badly in the ZA, but the manner in which Beth died was truly pathetic writing, IMO.  A lot of characters have died in TWD for a lot of reasons, but offhand, I can't think of any other character who behaved in such an inexplicable manner before dying.

 

On the other hand, if Beth were brought back, perhaps as a dream sequence where Maggie wakes up and remembers she has a sister, they could eliminate a lot of the stupidity of the first half of Season 5:

 

• Going into the food bank's flooded basement that also has numerous zombies
• Following Eugene to Washington
• Father Gabriel busting out of the church
• Sasha letting herself get knocked out by Bob the Second
• No one checking whether Martin was dead dead or just Tyrese dead.
• Maggie never mentioning her only last living relative (though I think that goes back far into Season 4 as well)

 

I imagine there are other examples.

[kikismom]

As for th cast I don't see any one doing that most seem to feel the cast aggrees with the fans. I think SG is fair game though I don't think he deserves to be personally attack but professionally he should answer for this. As showrunner anything that happens on the show is his responsibility and that includes any blowback. Kirkman will probably get hit too as he was defending the decision but given what goes on in the comics he probably deserves it anyway

 

I think it's because this is the first time an actor has let the mask slip that they were OK with this and it was all fine. Emily also suggested in an interview that Andrew and Norman didn't know until the last minute (which TPTB denied), leading some fans to believe they were kept in the dark because of a conspiracy as they would have fought to keep her.

The cast may agree with the fans that they will miss Beth, but they have not said a word about fragging Gimple or Kirkman or AMC. The cast are not crazy, and they say the exact same thing with each character death I loved working with him/her! And I loved that character! I will really miss our scenes blahblahblah.

 

This is smart politics in Hollywood; not one time has anyone on TWD said I'm kinda glad he/she is gone! What a pain in the ass to work with! The fewer characters on the show, the more screentime for me yay! Now the internet and press and media will go back to my pix/interviews/speculation thank God.

Beth fans are too young to get it (overall; yes I realize people over 14 liked her.)

 

I've also noted that AL and NR are the biggest politicos on the show; even when the Frank Darabont thing happened it was oh well I don't know enough to comment and when Dale was written out over it oh, well, there's issues that I am not involved with.

The smart people realize they have the best job they had on the number one drama...and tell your wife how you really feel, tell your dog, but keep your mouth shut and don't bite the hand that feeds you. I bet anything that AL and NR knew perfectly well she was going, as TPTB say, and they told EK they didn't because she'd want to know why they didn't warn her or why they didn't go to the mat for her etc.

EK should be grateful for the best job she ever had including getting paid for basically standing around 50% of the time she was on camera. Even shows without zombies (soaps, cop shows, sitcoms) ditch people all the time and they are not obligated to keep you forever.

Grow up EK, you could have made a positive spin about career opportunities for other projects but you blew it and came off like some rube who came to Hollywood on a turnip truck. It's 2014...even viewers are more savvy about the business. (If she didn't know till episode 7 she knew less than a casual glance at any entertainment site has been saying since season 4.)

[AngelaHunter]

I always defended Beth because of the constant fan attacks that babysitting meant she was worthless and if she couldn't turn into Rambo, she should die.

 

Agree. Since when is babysitting "worthless"? Someone had to do it, and Beth was mostly stuck with the job. If left in Rick's hands, the kid would have died from neglect.

 

I liked that we saw one average, ordinary person trying to cope as best she could with the world gone mad and the end of life as we know it. I liked that she never magically turned into Rambo or the Terminator. Not everyone is cut out to be an avenging angel or a hero. In fact, I think more people would be Beth than Michonne under the same circumstances.

 

As someone who watched all episodes of Season 8 "Dexter", I guess I can't really fault TWD writing all that much. In comparison, it seems almost to be Spock-like logical. Even so, Beth's exit was just dumb, illogical (even by this show's standards), silly and totally without a point.

[diebartdie]

Well I think everyone, whether they love, hate or are indifferent to Beth agrees with "Beth's exit was just dumb, illogical (even by this show's standards), silly and totally without a point." Shitty way to end the mid-season, shitty way to end a character arc they spent so much time building too. Why did they do that? I mean really, giant fumble there.

[Ocean Chick]

A lot of characters have died in TWD for a lot of reasons, but offhand, I can't think of any other character who behaved in such an inexplicable manner before dying.

 

 

 May I take a moment to remind you of Andrea's death?  She's tied to a chair, but she has a tool in which to break those bonds.  She knows Milton is dying, and once he dies he will turn.  So what does she do?  Have extended conversations with a dying man while JUST SITTING THERE, not trying to free herself.  Like she was on vacation or something.  I remember people venting about it the next day - everyone said the were screaming at their tvs for Andrea to shut up and CUT.  LOL

[NoWillToResist]

I think Beth/Daryl fans were led on, but ultimately people should remember to keep any "shipping" expectations low, as this is not a show about romance, and any character who isn't Daryl, and maybe Rick and Carl, can go.

 

And this is where I find that the increased direct interaction between the fans and the cast/TPTB (usually via social media) has become a really big problem. People behind the scenes want fans to tune in, so they will hint and tease and hype. If they see fans hit a frenzy (more often than not over shipping, IMO), they can't confirm or deny because those would be spoilers and they'll get in trouble. Hell, even if they said "no comment", it would cause even more waves in the fandom, as that comment is dissected six ways from Sunday. And many fans seem to blur the lines; because there is now easy access to TPTB, there seems to sometimes be a sense of entitlement or extreme casualness to one's interactions with these people who are complete strangers.

 

 

Gimple said that he began writing for Beth's death back in season 4.  There was over a year of planning that went into this.  The story wasn't ever going to be about some epic romance between Daryl and Beth, it was about an innocent kid who was gone too soon in the ZA.  That's the tragedy that's going to affect the survivors and how the cope with it.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how Beth's death took a year to plan. It just seemed like something that someone pulled out of their ass at the last minute to make their deadline. Lots of characters have been killed off this show; most of whom were taken 'too soon' or just when things were getting interesting for them, but this ham-fisted death was really cheap. I think most of us are just watching the clock, wondering when our favourite will be taken out and our only hope is that their exit is at least decent. Beth fans were not given that and I wish that they would focus their energies on that, rather than (IMO) misplaced accusations and rage. Complain about HOW Beth was taken out, not THAT she was taken out.

 

 

I think Beth fans are pissed off. Hell Im pissed off. Beth death in addition to being poorly thought it was brutally sexist. Killing Beth off to fuel Daryl's story is sexist and this petition is addressing that. There are a lot of reviews pointing out how thatt but I think a fan response is warranted. I don't know about the rest of you but I am sick of women's stories being treated as second best.

 

I grant that much of the minute or so following Beth's death was taken up with Daryl but I think it's too soon to label that her death will be "all about Daryl". Obviously we will know more when the show comes back in February, but I think it's too soon to make that claim. While I gave shit to TPTB for keeping Maggie mum about her sister all season, they did re-introduce Beth into Maggie's narrative just before Beth was killed off, and TPTB manipulated things so that Maggie would see Beth's corpse and then break down completely. So, based on those choices, I am presuming that Beth's death will feature heavily into Maggie's story in 2015. If it doesn't, I will join in with the outrage because there is no fucking way that Maggie, Beth's sister, should have less attention paid to her grief than Daryl Fucking Dixon, who interacted with Beth for a hot minute last season.

 

Perhaps the focus on Daryl in the MSF was a nod to those fans who saw more between them than TPTB intended (IMO). And that now, with Beth gone, the focus will go to where it should: her sister. Maggie has now literally lost her entire family in, what, less than a year? That should have more narrative impact than Daryl having one more thing to be grumpy about...

[AngelaHunter]

everyone said the were screaming at their tvs for Andrea to shut up and CUT.  LOL

 

Even the dying Milton was telling her, "We don't have much time!"

 

Very bad writing and another example of Andrea gratuitously being made to look ridiculous and stupid. The scene would have been much more believable and tense had Andrea just strugged to get the tool and cut her bonds and Milton dying and turning too fast. Ugh. I liked Andrea and I hated that scene.

[Pete Martell]

And this is where I find that the increased direct interaction between the fans and the cast/TPTB (usually via social media) has become a really big problem. People behind the scenes want fans to tune in, so they will hint and tease and hype. If they see fans hit a frenzy (more often than not over shipping, IMO), they can't confirm or deny because those would be spoilers and they'll get in trouble. Hell, even if they said "no comment", it would cause even more waves in the fandom, as that comment is dissected six ways from Sunday. And many fans seem to blur the lines; because there is now easy access to TPTB, there seems to sometimes be a sense of entitlement or extreme casualness to one's interactions with these people who are complete strangers.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how Beth's death took a year to plan. It just seemed like something that someone pulled out of their ass at the last minute to make their deadline. Lots of characters have been killed off this show; most of whom were taken 'too soon' or just when things were getting interesting for them, but this ham-fisted death was really cheap. I think most of us are just watching the clock, wondering when our favourite will be taken out and our only hope is that their exit is at least decent. Beth fans were not given that and I wish that they would focus their energies on that, rather than (IMO) misplaced accusations and rage. Complain about HOW Beth was taken out, not THAT she was taken out.

 

There's a certain line that can be easy to cross, and it's almost always a problem with Daryl/Norman. For instance, I think a year or two ago his girlfriend was getting hate from people. 

 

You can't just ignore fans or mock them, but if the show did plan to kill Beth by the time they had her with Daryl, they should have been much more cautious in how they handled the matter on Talking Dead. I guess they can't do that because Hardwick is also in the dark, but if you were a fan of "Bethyl," or even just a Beth fan, and you saw people like John Barrowman prattling on about her strength and her relationship with Daryl, you'd feel like a chump when you soon realize how the story ends. You'd feel used.

 

I didn't expect Beth to die, not until I read spoilers, but looking at the whole thing now, I can see where they may have planned it - her being separated from everyone but Daryl, her trying to toughen up, her abduction, her being abused on myriad levels by Dawn. I just don't think the last scene did justice to any of this material. If she had to go, then they could have made some tweaks that would have given her a much clearer death.

 

Once again having to include Daryl just put a spanner in the works. 

Even the dying Milton was telling her, "We don't have much time!"

 

Very bad writing and another example of Andrea gratuitously being made to look ridiculous and stupid. The scene would have been much more believable and tense had Andrea just strugged to get the tool and cut her bonds and Milton dying and turning too fast. Ugh. I liked Andrea and I hated that scene.

 

It was ridiculous. I wasn't as bothered by it as many because it was apparently still better than the original scenes would have been (presumably all the talk about not giving up was a way to remind viewers of Andrea's heart, whereas in the original version she'd just sort of gotten chomped early on), and because the Governor gun scenes were so much more stupid, but it was ridiculous.

[editorgrrl]

 May I take a moment to remind you of Andrea's death?  She's tied to a chair, but she has a tool in which to break those bonds.  She knows Milton is dying, and once he dies he will turn.  So what does she do?  Have extended conversations with a dying man while JUST SITTING THERE, not trying to free herself.  Like she was on vacation or something.  I remember people venting about it the next day - everyone said the were screaming at their tvs for Andrea to shut up and CUT.  LOL

 

Even the dying Milton was telling her, "We don't have much time!"

 

Very bad writing and another example of Andrea gratuitously being made to look ridiculous and stupid. The scene would have been much more believable and tense had Andrea just strugged to get the tool and cut her bonds and Milton dying and turning too fast. Ugh. I liked Andrea and I hated that scene.

 

To add insult to injury, Andrea died with a pristine pedicure—in the freaking ZA.

 

Beth is not the first woman to die a stupid death on The Walking Dead, and she won't be the last.

[mandolin]

Those feet are gross to me, pedicure or no. 

 

Does anyone have a link to the original Andrea death? I'd love to read it.

[NoWillToResist]

You can't just ignore fans or mock them, but if the show did plan to kill Beth by the time they had her with Daryl, they should have been much more cautious in how they handled the matter on Talking Dead. I guess they can't do that because Hardwick is also in the dark, but if you were a fan of "Bethyl," or even just a Beth fan, and you saw people like John Barrowman prattling on about her strength and her relationship with Daryl, you'd feel like a chump when you soon realize how the story ends. You'd feel used.

 

But therein lies the rub. If you have a show where 'celebrity' fans can come on and chat about what they like, that's not really any different or more sanctioned than what we are all doing right now, IMO. John Barrowman can waffle on and on about Daryl/Beth to his heart's content; it doesn't mean that TPTB are required to give the audience Bethyl. They also cannot halt filming that ep of TTD and ask him to self-edit because how do they explain why? "Yeah, John it's great that you love their dynamic. Um, can you dial it back though? We don't want people to get too invested in them. No reason!" ;)  Just because they have Yvette Nicole Brown on TTD (who loves Caryl) doesn't make me think that the show is now honour-bound to deliver that on the show.

 

 

There's a certain line that can be easy to cross, and it's almost always a problem with Daryl/Norman. For instance, I think a year or two ago his girlfriend was getting hate from people.

 

Fuck, it's Supernatural all over again. Be a fanatic all you want at home. Obsess about the actor/actress or character. Hell, create your little internet worlds and fanwank away on show theories or real life theories about which actors are fucking their co-star but marry other people as 'beards' to hide it from the public, I don't give a shit. But for fuck's sake, have the common sense, decency and basic courtesy to not bring that shit to the people themselves. Holy fucking hell.

[Milaxx]

Then Gimple & Co screwed the proverbial zombie pooch.

 

I don't mind that Beth died, and I can see that a prisoner exchange could go very badly in the ZA, but the manner in which Beth died was truly pathetic writing, IMO.  A lot of characters have died in TWD for a lot of reasons, but offhand, I can't think of any other character who behaved in such an inexplicable manner before dying.

 

On the other hand, if Beth were brought back, perhaps as a dream sequence where Maggie wakes up and remembers she has a sister, they could eliminate a lot of the stupidity of the first half of Season 5:

 

• Going into the food bank's flooded basement that also has numerous zombies
• Following Eugene to Washington
• Father Gabriel busting out of the church
• Sasha letting herself get knocked out by Bob the Second
• No one checking whether Martin was dead dead or just Tyrese dead.
• Maggie never mentioning her only last living relative (though I think that goes back far into Season 4 as well)

 

I imagine there are other examples.

I highly doubt Gimple & co want to retcon an entire season in order to justify or correct the death of one of their actors. IMO the entire Grady storyline was dumb, but it's a done deed. I don't need to see Beth brought back anymore than I need to Andrea or Lori return. 

 

Beth is not the first woman to die a stupid death on The Walking Dead, and she won't be the last.

 

THIS! The show historically is not that great at how it writes it's female characters. They have gotten better. I remember in season 1 & 2 all the female character did was cooking and cleaning. 

[editorgrrl]

Beth is not the first woman to die a stupid death on The Walking Dead, and she won't be the last.

 

THIS! The show historically is not that great at how it writes it's female characters. They have gotten better. I remember in season 1 & 2 all the female character did was cooking and cleaning. 

 

There's a whole thread called TWD Women Who's the bigger threat - Walkers or Writers?

[BrokenRemote]

Well I think everyone, whether they love, hate or are indifferent to Beth agrees with "Beth's exit was just dumb, illogical (even by this show's standards), silly and totally without a point." Shitty way to end the mid-season, shitty way to end a character arc they spent so much time building too. Why did they do that? I mean really, giant fumble there.

I don't agree with that, not at all. I thought it was very in keeping with Beth's character. It was no more a shitty way to end a character arc than was Lori's death, or Andrea's, or T-Dog's or Axel's or Herschel's or Sofia's or anyone's. Lots of characters have died in a way that seemed silly or senseless, and lots were in mid-'arc'. I think the people who don't have a problem with the way Beth left just aren't as vocal because people tend to be forthcoming more about things they're outraged about than things they have no problem with.

Of course those who disagree are entitled to that opinion and I don't seek to persuade them otherwise. Just saying that they don't speak for us all.

I also disagree with the idea that Beth was just a normal, regular girl in contrast to all the other badass characters. She was not regular, she was a special snowflake. She didn't fight zombies, but she was oh, so special in so many other ways. She was an amazing singer, the only spot of goodness and kindness and hope in a world of darkness, the prettiest girl at the Apocolypse, had the biggestest heart and the most naive charm of anyone ever. She and she alone could break through the thorny wall of Daryl's pain with the shining light of her goodness and love. She also figured out how to practice medicine in a few days and shot half a dozen zombies square in the head in the dark better than Shane ever could.

Some of the same people who say she was just a regular girl often see no contradiction in pointing out just how amazingly non-regular she was in so many ways.

[kikismom]

 the most naive charm

[GreyBunny]

I don't agree with that, not at all. I thought it was very in keeping with Beth's character. It was no more a shitty way to end a character arc than was Lori's death, or Andrea's, or T-Dog's or Axel's or Herschel's or Sofia's or anyone's. Lots of characters have died in a way that seemed silly or senseless, and lots were in mid-'arc'. I think the people who don't have a problem with the way Beth left just aren't as vocal because people tend to be forthcoming more about things they're outraged about than things they have no problem with.

Of course those who disagree are entitled to that opinion and I don't seek to persuade them otherwise. Just saying that they don't speak for us all.

 

This times a million.  Her death made sense to me - Beth has a history of doing stupid and impulsive things and this time it got her killed.  It was no less dumb than sitting around and having a loud party out in the open only to get mobbed by zombies (season 1 - killed Ed and Amy among others and left Jim with a nasty bite) or any of the other deaths already mentioned above.  Greek playwright Aeschylus died when an eagle dropped a tortoise on his head (mistook his bald head for a rock to crack open the shell).  If everyone got a "noble" death with sweeping acts of heroics, THAT would be silly.  Sometimes even the best people die in stupid ways, and as far as I'm concerned Beth wasn't even one of the best people.  

 

I also disagree with the idea that Beth was just a normal, regular girl in contrast to all the other badass characters. She was not regular, she was a special snowflake. She didn't fight zombies, but she was oh, so special in so many other ways. She was an amazing singer, the only spot of goodness and kindness and hope in a world of darkness, the prettiest girl at the Apocolypse, had the biggestest heart and the most naive charm of anyone ever. She and she alone could break through the thorny wall of Daryl's pain with the shining light of her goodness and love.

 

Heh!  I'm bringing this over from someplace else because I think it's great:

 

I keep reading from Beth/Bethyl fans that the show 'killed the hope, the light' in the ZA. Are they kidding, do we watch the same show? If they are looking for hope, try looking at Judith, then Carl. Then look at the hearts of our team and see the love and hope with Maggie and Glenn, Rick for his family, then consider what drives Carol, Michonne, and Daryl. These folks are trying to survive but they each carry hope and love and longing. Beth Greene did not have the corner on hope. Hope rests in the heart of all of our characters for as long as they live. Consider Bob loving Sasha and playing the 'it could be worse' game. There is hope. Maggie's desperate search for Glenn shows love. Beth Greene was not the light of the ZA, the light of the ZA is already in our survivors. All they have to do is look at each other, take care of each other, and make sure the sunlight falls on their faces.

 

Beth Greene is not required, at all.

Edited December 4, 2014 by GreyBunny

[AngelaHunter]

*Guffaw* (yeah, I really did!) I just betcha Beth was the kind of girl who would have said "Hoohoo."

 

[kikismom]

Even the dying Milton was telling her, "We don't have much time!"

 

lol,  yeah, when the soon-to-be-walker-who-will-feed-on-you says lady you better hurry up and escape me then you know you're incompetent.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how Beth's death took a year to plan. It just seemed like something that someone pulled out of their ass at the last minute to make their deadline.

My newest theory is they did take a year to plan...a "Raised by Herschel, Trained by Daryl" icon for future seasons.

They killed off too many main characters and replaced them with farm-team losers that don't get the love.

So they planned a Beth future like a Carl future...but they made the mistake of telling or hinting to Emily Kinney about this. Then they started realizing that the viewers weren't on board in the numbers that count, or that EK just wasn't up to the starring role level of ability.

I think it's possible they backtracked (God knows they've done it before: changed the plans to kill off Carol and Shane early, changed the plans to keep Dale on the show and did kill him off early with last-minute writing).

So that would explain the whole shitty interlude, and maybe also explain EK's peculiar shock over being written out.

Edited December 4, 2014 by kikismom

[diebartdie]

I want to say officially, I am not a Beth + Daryl shipper or a Carol + Daryl shipper or any kind of shipper for this show, at least not a conventional shipper. Im not a conventional lady irl so for me, an apocolypse would be the perfect time for everyone to abandon outmoded ideas like one man + one woman. Every and all possible combinations ought to be the norm, not this one on one thing. If everyone wanted it, Daryl + Carol + Beth would be fine. Maggie + Glen + Tara. Michonne + Carol + Rick + Abraham. Rosita + Michonne (omg). Eugene + Abraham + Glen. Whatever, my reasons for liking Beth have nothing at all to do with Daryl and I'm fine that some folks are mad to lose the character of Beth for personal reasons or story reasons or whatever reasons. Im fine with people glad she is no longer taking up screen time. I'm grossed out by people that cheered for her death but hey, whatever, I'll probably never meet anyone like that irl and besides, Ive been on the opposite of that equation, Ive been the one who despised a character that seemed like everyone else loved. Anyway, the character of Beth is gone now, her final storyline was a pile of shit.

[kikismom]

Raised by Herschel!

Trained by Daryl!

Killed by Dawn!

Meet The New Beth Greene!

Say Good-bye, New Beth Greene!

[NoWillToResist]

Raised by Herschel!

Trained by Daryl!

Killed by Dawn!

Meet The New Beth Greene!

Say Good-bye, New Beth Greene!

 

I feel like your "meet Beth Greene" should be bumped up by one line (before she's killed).

 

Should I be reading anything into the show crediting Beth's "development" to male characters while her existence was snuffed out by a woman?

So that would explain the whole shitty interlude, and maybe also explain EK's peculiar shock over being written out.

 

What I don't understand is that, even if EK found out during ep 7 that her character was going to be killed in ep 8, that shit was AGES ago. So I'm a little amazed that she wouldn't be more composed on TTD. She's had lots of time to come to terms with it, no?

Edited December 4, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[editorgrrl]

Raised by Herschel!

Trained by Daryl!

Meet The New Beth Greene!

Should I be reading anything into the show crediting Beth's "development" to male characters while her existence was snuffed out by a woman?

The quote is from the "Slabtown" episode of Talking Dead. I remember because I got so angry at it!

That said, I see TD as a means for TPTB at TWD to put information out there yet retain plausible deniability. "You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment." Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Edited to add that I've taken this to the Talking Dead thread.

Edited December 4, 2014 by editorgrrl

[BrokenRemote]

I want to say officially, I am not a Beth + Daryl shipper or a Carol + Daryl shipper or any kind of shipper for this show, at least not a conventional shipper. Im not a conventional lady irl so for me, an apocolypse would be the perfect time for everyone to abandon outmoded ideas like one man + one woman. Every and all possible combinations ought to be the norm, not this one on one thing. If everyone wanted it, Daryl + Carol + Beth would be fine. Maggie + Glen + Tara. Michonne + Carol + Rick + Abraham. Rosita + Michonne (omg). Eugene + Abraham + Glen. Whatever, my reasons for liking Beth have nothing at all to do with Daryl and I'm fine that some folks are mad to lose the character of Beth for personal reasons or story reasons or whatever reasons. Im fine with people glad she is no longer taking up screen time. I'm grossed out by people that cheered for her death but hey, whatever, I'll probably never meet anyone like that irl and besides, Ive been on the opposite of that equation, Ive been the one who despised a character that seemed like everyone else loved. Anyway, the character of Beth is gone now, her final storyline was a pile of shit.

I'm curious about this.  If people were cheering for the real death of a real person, I can see being grossed out.  But cheering for the death of a fictional character?  

[kikismom]

 

Should I be reading anything into the show crediting Beth's "development" to male characters while her existence was snuffed out by a woman?

I couldn't rule it out. The character of Dawn is a woman boss, of men who don't respect her, who can't handle the job etc. But it looks like another woman takes her place. (Sheila the Wonder Horse tm Nashville)

But I do wonder if the Grady hospital set-up is one of Kirkman's basement fantasies, lollipop and all. I've also previously mentioned the possibility of the Michonne Quandary: you can be a female bad-ass who is respected, admired, and given responsibilities you handle well....which means you lose sexual attractiveness to the guys or at least the male character that comic fan-boys identify with.

Being helpless damaged victim is someone they are less insecure around.

How much did Beth develop if she is the creation of co-Pygmalions Herschel and Daryl?

I think TWD  believes they succeed at creating strong women. But Andrea's personality was "shrill" and Shane's defiance was "combative". Carol gets out of victimhood and into bad-ass deeds, but is either OTT psycho or having a nervous breakdown. Etc. It could just be weird or maybe there is a little bit of equality-serving being simultaneously undercut by the shown results.

I don't want to go reading sexism into everything, but comic/GN universe, even conventions etc, show a lot of unwillingness to let the girls in the treehouse.

I want to say officially, I am not a Beth + Daryl shipper or a Carol + Daryl shipper or any kind of shipper for this show, at least not a conventional shipper. Im not a conventional lady irl so for me, an apocolypse would be the perfect time for everyone to abandon outmoded ideas like one man + one woman. Every and all possible combinations ought to be the norm, not this one on one thing. If everyone wanted it, Daryl + Carol + Beth would be fine. Maggie + Glen + Tara. Michonne + Carol + Rick + Abraham. Rosita + Michonne (omg). Eugene + Abraham + Glen. Whatever, my reasons for liking Beth have nothing at all to do with Daryl and I'm fine that some folks are mad to lose the character of Beth for personal reasons or story reasons or whatever reasons. Im fine with people glad she is no longer taking up screen time. I'm grossed out by people that cheered for her death but hey, whatever, I'll probably never meet anyone like that irl and besides, Ive been on the opposite of that equation, Ive been the one who despised a character that seemed like everyone else loved. Anyway, the character of Beth is gone now, her final storyline was a pile of shit.

 

 

I'm curious about this.  If people were cheering for the real death of a real person, I can see being grossed out.  But cheering for the death of a fictional character?  

I agree about the possibility of more flexible "comfort and affection and tension-relieving" arrangements in a world where they are all likely to die soon. But the part about cheering the death of a character...I think it's harmless.

[NoWillToResist]

I'm curious about this.  If people were cheering for the real death of a real person, I can see being grossed out.  But cheering for the death of a fictional character?  

 

Yeah, I may not have cared for Beth one way or the other, but I was rooting hard for Lori to die. I had just had it with the actress and character at that point.

 

I don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting a fictional character to die since that's usually the only way the audience is spared having to put up with them ever again. It could be because the character was badly written or for completely superficial reasons, but I don't personally see anything gross or particularly worrying about it

the Michonne Quandary: you can be a female bad-ass who is respected, admired, and given responsibilities you handle well....which means you lose sexual attractiveness to the guys or at least the male character that comic fan-boys identify with.

 

 

I think Maggie is the closest they've come to having it both ways. But she's now married to Glenn, so while the audience can be all "damn, girl!", the other male characters do not since she is 'taken'. But at least they have her show competence with her weapons and whatnot while also attracting Glenn...

[ghoulina]

Yeah, I may not have cared for Beth one way or the other, but I was rooting hard for Lori to die. I had just had it with the actress and character at that point.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting a fictional character to die since that's usually the only way the audience is spared having to put up with them ever again. It could be because the character was badly written or for completely superficial reasons, but I don't personally see anything gross or particularly worrying about it

 

I was the same way with Andrea. It could not have come soon enough. When she finally, FINALLY died, I actually yelled "Finally!". I have teared up at every other death, even those I didn't like much. But not Andrea. I was all, "Bye, Felicia". I don't think it meant I want people to die, but yea - I just want you off my screen. I guess people could just go the way of Morales, but that's not really likely. So to be done with them they actually have to die most of the time. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by ghoulina

[diebartdie]

Well I can see cheering for the death of Gareth or the Gov, those guys were bad guys. Whatever you think of Beth (stupid, immature, silly, kind, loyal, patient, etc), she was no bad guy so for me, when I read here some people cheered her death, that just grossed me out because it's so ugly. Cheer for the (fictional) death of a (fictional) young woman? Ugly and I dont understand it. Dont want to understand it either. Anyway, at first I was pissed off about Beth's death (for fuck's sake, she didnt even draw BLOOD!) but now, whatever, it's a bleak show, made bleaker by her death (to me, Im just talking about my emotional response here). Fuckit, I'm still reading the comic even though I vowed to stop reading it when a certain character's head was bashed in....but Im still at it.

 

I guess I'm as pathetic as Beth......but you know what? Trade places with Beth and I would have walked right out of that hospital and not looked back. Fuck stupid Noah!

[BrokenRemote]

I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree, then.  I could never feel that strongly about a TV show or a character.  

[diebartdie]

Nah BrokenRemote, some folks cried over (Buffy the Vampire episode) "The Body", some didnt. Some folks cried over the (fictional) death of (fictional character) Hershel, some didnt. Some cried when Xena died, some didnt. I cried over all of those....but not the death of Beth. I've hated plenty tv characters but I doubt Ive ever cheered for any of them meeting death, I'm just not that kind of person. Takes all kinds, right? We dont need to agree to disagree, we just do it (life) differently! Maybe you'll get grossed out when I cheer over....I dont know.....Daryl getting a puppy?

 

edit because I cried over Xena, not died. Maybe a little bit I did.

Edited December 4, 2014 by diebartdie

[AngelaHunter]

I teared up over Beth, if only because seeing a young woman lying on the floor with her skull blown out is a very sad sight.

 

The only other death on this show got me sniffly was....Merle's!

[Pete Martell]

I've sometimes hated non-villainous TV characters enough to hope they die, but when it happens I don't really always feel happy. It depends on the character, I guess. I hated Fred on "Angel" (she's so smart and cute and all the boys love her because she's a geek girl with mean mean parents!!!!) so much that it helped me stop watching the show (along with several other things). When I found out she died, I just sort of shrugged, as by that time I'd lost all interest in ever watching the show again anyway.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm not one who normally tears up over TV deaths, but I'll cop to being generically sad in the same way I would be over any seeing any young person who still had their whole life ahead of them sprawled out on the floor in their own blood and bits of skull.

 

I also don't celebrate deaths but if it's not a character I particularly loved, I usually tend to view those deaths with either a shrug or a bit of relief.  Whether that's because the character is generally terrible, or botched like Andrea was by the end, or terribly written, or terribly acted while I'm told over and over was the most awesomest awesome who ever awesomed and I'm a jealous dried up hater if I don't see it.

Edited December 4, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[Nashville]

I dunno.

I usually don't get that invested in TV characters, real or fictional.

When Emily got her ass booted off the current season of "Ink Master", however, everybody in my house was high-giving each other - so it's not UNHEARD-of....

[NoWillToResist]

I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree, then.  I could never feel that strongly about a TV show or a character.  

 

I have given up on shows based on choices TPTB have made with characters, so I get how people can feel that strongly about fake people. I weigh things on my emotional response. If the show consistently makes me rage at my screen, it's time to move on. :)  There are enough characters that I like on the show that the occasional exit of one I like or was neutral on, won't stop me watching. Also, on a show like this, I kind of have to condition myself to assume that everyone will die at some point, so I try to not get TOO attached. It's the nature of the show to kill off its people. When there's no one left to give a shit about, that's probably when I'll quit...

[nodorothyparker]

^^ That's me.  I've long accepted that my favorites will most likely go too at some point.  Eventually that will happen or I'll hate what's left more than I care about anyone still there and that will be my exit point.

 

Reality shows are a totally different ballgame.  I can hate on everyone there all day long day but that probably has something to do with me thinking most reality show participants are idiots who are slowly killing us all with their idiocy.

[Nashville]

I weigh things on my emotional response. If the show consistently makes me rage at my screen, it's time to move on. :) 

Same here, but in reverse. I look for shows that provoke that kind of response. It gives me a harmless outlet against which to channel my rage. Without shows like this, the lady up the street who keeps walking her furball mutt down to MY yard to take a dump would've been in a shallow grave years ago.

[NoWillToResist]

Same here, but in reverse. I look for shows that provoke that kind of response. It gives me a harmless outlet against which to channel my rage.

 

To a degree, yes. For instance, with Sons of Anarchy, I would get fed up with the characters off and on but I was still hooked and wanted to know what would happen. That said, if this weren't the final season, I'd probably just read the recaps. That show is NOT good for one's blood pressure. Talk about wanting fictional people killed...holy Christ. :)

 

But I don't want to be totally provoked. When I changed from being occasionally annoyed by the main chick's behaviour in Weeds to screeching my hate for her at my screen in every episode, I knew that it had lost ALL value to me and it was time to stop.

 

If only I had given up on LOST back when I wanted to. I let others convince me to stick around and that's six years of frustration I'll never be over.

[Nashville]

To a degree, yes. For instance, with Sons of Anarchy, I would get fed up with the characters off and on but I was still hooked and wanted to know what would happen. That said, if this weren't the final season, I'd probably just read the recaps. That show is NOT good for one's blood pressure. Talk about wanting fictional people killed...holy Christ. :)

Oh hell yes. One of my favorites.

If only I had given up on LOST back when I wanted to. I let others convince me to stick around and that's six years of frustration I'll never be over.

So you know what I mean by the Kate Syndrome....

ETA: Correcting autocorrect corrections. Again.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Nashville

[BrokenRemote]

Don't get me wrong: I've cried at character deaths many times. Good TV should move its viewers. What I meant was that I could never take a show or character so seriously as to think badly of or disparage real people who cheered at a character's death. It's just not important enough to me to affect my real-world opinion or treatment of people.

Edited December 4, 2014 by BrokenRemote