S05.E01: No Sanctuary

[lulee]

Okay so I went back and watched this episode yet again and I must say the zombies just shambling about whilst still a flame really amused me. I'm not sure why, perhaps it's because living human beings would be thrashing about on the ground trying to put themselves out. But here come the zombies, just strolling about with their clothes on fire looking for their next meal.

I think I'm going to have to form a neo-punk band called "The Flaming Zombies". Our first single will be called "Die, Beth, Die!"

German for "the Beth, the", right?

[PunkyMouse]

German for "the Beth, the", right?

Nein, mein Liebling. Wenn es verwirrend ist, ich werde es ändern "Beth Muss Sterben".

Edited October 15, 2014 by PunkyMouse

[lulee]

If Carol is now a "cold-blooded killer", the writers are completely ignoring her portrayal in The Grove.

Edited October 15, 2014 by lulee

[Boofish]

At this point in the ZA, I would seriously have to consider how much I wanted to live and what surviving is worth. I might just head out to the woods and "Jacqui"

 

Regarding speculation that it was Andrea in the handcuffs on the tracks. Andrea is buried at the prison. In the final scenes from Season 3 when they return to the prison from HOODbury, there is a body wrapped in a blanket in the back of the truck - they "buried the one they loved"

Edited October 15, 2014 by Boofish

[mandolin]

As mightysparrow mentions, the possibility of pandering to fans does worry me a bit. Actually, the popularity of the show worries me. It seems that shows that get this big can only go down. I just hope the network continues to give them freedom, versus sticking their hands in it based on ratings.

[JackONeill]

As mightysparrow mentions, the possibility of pandering to fans does worry me a bit.

 

Me, three.  TPTB might be letting the comic book influence them too much.  I can see how thrilled and gleeful they get when talking about the special effects.  I'm not one who needs to see all the new ways to kill a Walker.  I'd prefer a little more nuance in the stories.  I mean, we get nuance, in that how can we not get the whole "slippery slope" thing.  But the nuance we get is often done in heavy-handed ways (yeah, I know that sounds contradictory).

[LilySilver]

As mightysparrow mentions, the possibility of pandering to fans does worry me a bit. Actually, the popularity of the show worries me. It seems that shows that get this big can only go down. I just hope the network continues to give them freedom, versus sticking their hands in it based on ratings.

Right. Don't "Lost" me, bro.

 

I don't think of Carol so much as a cold-blooded killer as a loose cannon with kind of a warped sense of  loyalty.  You just don't know what she's going to do. She can't be trusted, if I'm Rick  (who overthinks things anyway) or most certainly Tyrese.

[mightysparrow]

 

Me, three.  TPTB might be letting the comic book influence them too much.  I can see how thrilled and gleeful they get when talking about the special effects.  I'm not one who needs to see all the new ways to kill a Walker.  I'd prefer a little more nuance in the stories.  I mean, we get nuance, in that how can we not get the whole "slippery slope" thing.  But the nuance we get is often done in heavy-handed ways (yeah, I know that sounds contradictory).

 

I find it interesting that I'm so addicted to a show about the zombie apocolypse when I could care less about zombies.  I keep waiting for the moment the zombies start to die out.  One of the things I disliked about 5.1 was the almost complete lack of nuance.  I felt I was being hit over the head again and again while some jerk shouted in my ear 'isn't this cool?!?!?!?'

 

I don't mind following the comic book but this is a live-action show and what works in a comic book might not work on television.  And the audience is different.

[JackONeill]

Good ole Rick, someone who's never met a decision he could be decided about.

[LilySilver]

Yes.  I appreciated the "economy" with which they wrapped up the Terminus storyline (though anytime there's a disagreement between Rick's thoughts as leader and the group, you know we've got a loose end or two on our hands).  And I know it's a zombie show, so I put up with the gore, etc.   I'm fine with the action.  But I was struggling to track it all while still thinking about how much they've been through very quickly, how much is unsaid, and what impact the events of the past few weeks have had on these people, these characters that are the reason I watch.

 

I imagine we will get plenty of that in upcoming episodes--I hope. The character development is what keeps me coming back after long breaks when I'm thinking to myself, "Do I really want to go back into that gratuitous gore, into that darkness?"   Lol. I'm not a horror genre person.  It's the survival aspect that I love, and the relationships between the characters. After a season and  a half of the Governor followed by a half a season of my people being split up, I want some together time.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LilySilver

[JackONeill]

I'm with you, LilySilver.

 

I like action, and I thought this show was great for that.  But I also want to "know" the characters, and see them grow.  I want to see the quandaries and watch as they try to reason their way out of them.  And, like you said, I like to see them interact with one another.  Those episodes where it's just one or two of them against the world are interesting, but It's the ones we're they're interacting with one another that, to me, are most interesting.

[mandolin]

I don't necessarily care about the zombies either. It's that everything, everything is gone. Not one modern convenience. The buildings that are overgrown with vines, broken down cars. I can't get enough of that (on tv, not IRL!).

 

And I agree, the character interaction is what I really enjoy as well. I struggled through the back half of season 4 other than the Michonne/Rick/Carl episodes. The dynamic the group has when together is so interesting to watch.

[NoWillToResist]

 

If he really does know the answer it should be no problem to articulate it to others. He should try. If they don't understand, well, they will at least be satisfied that they were given an answer rather than be baffled by bullshit.

 

While I don't think he has the answers either, I kind of can't blame him either way. If he knows the answer and writes it all down, they don't need his out-of-shape ass dragging them down; they can ditch him. If he doesn't know the answer and confesses that, same result. I think he (IMO, rightly) believes that his survival in this world depends on people thinking he, and only he, has the cure that can save the world.

 

 

My first thought was that his blood has the antidote in it & that's why they have to get him to DC alive & why telling people what the cure is won't do any good.

 

Yeah, that occurred to me too. I don't know why he doesn't use that since it's a great fucking explanation and will stop all the questions. Claim that he appears to have immunity to the virus. His blood (live, not removed, thank you very much) needs to be transported to Washington so that his antibodies can be extracted, duplicated and a cure made from it. Boom, problem solved. He can't be killed, he must be protected. No one else can take the cure from him via writing stuff down.

 

 

I am curious why Bob, Daryl, Glenn, and Rick were the first ones chosen for butchering.  Any theory I come up with has flaws in it.

 

Heh. Honestly? I didn't even bother with an in-canon explanation. The audience wouldn't be as invested in the others since we've only just met Abraham and Eugene, so you've gotta pick the 4 men with whom the audience has spent the most time with (and thus, theoretically, the most emotional attachment to). I laughed at the oh-so-convenient way the 8 were lined up though. Gosh, look at that! The red shirts are on one end and that's the end the baddies decided to start with, rather than the end which is closer to them. They even killed everyone UP to our boys; no red shirt left standing. I wish they'd been interrupted after killing 3 red shirts just so that it wasn't so completely fucking obvious external TPTB manipulation.

[kikismom]

i'm afraid so much of the show was hijacked simply because Kirkman had a separate The Governor book for sale, and the series was hijacked as several weeks of commercials.

Didn't work; I am so sick to the back teeth of that character and that storyline I would not give him a penny for a damn book about it.

Now he has a Michonne book. I just hope to God he doesn't write a graphic novel about Tara; just imagine the hellacious TV episodes that could inflict on us.

[SoSueMe]

I get that a lot of people are finding the Carol character's development pandering but I really find her to be one of the most compelling characters. Thinking back over the episodes, out of the four most memorable episodes for me, three of them featured Carol although I didn't really focus in on that at the time. The four best episodes for me, so far, are:

Days Gone By

Pretty Much Dead Already (I always think of it as The Barn)

The Grove

and of course No Sanctuary.

[NurseGiGi]

Mightysparrow reminded me of the issues I had with this episode namely Norman Reedus' hair and Maggies (can't remember her real name) shirt.  I feel like NR is definitely pandering to his fans by having that hipster dyed I don't know what color hair.  I liked the look of Daryl in seasons 1 and 2 but now the hair just makes him look like a 40 something year old man trying to look like a twenty something. I don't know how he can be so accurate with that crossbow when his hair is always covering one eye.  And I really disliked how Maggie's shirt managed to go from full up around her neck to a top that was low cut with lots of cleavage.  Please show do not go in this direction.

 

I like it when the group is together, too.  It reminds me of the first season when most of them were around the campfire.  BUT, I still thought this was a truly outstanding episode and a good way to start the season.  Also, no Beth.

[Armchair Critic]

Ironically I am not usually a gore/horror/action type watcher either. My favorite AMC show is actually Mad Men and AMC sucks me in on Sunday nights. What interests me most is what would you do when the world as you know it ends. But after watching 'The Talking Dead' it seems like I may be in the minority and that they are focusing on the people who are more into the zombie killing. Hopefully they can keep the characters interesting enough that we all can be happy.

[mandolin]

SoSueMe, Pretty Much Dead Already is one of my most favorite episodes. I definitely agree with you on that one.

kikismom, I am not aware of a Michonne book. He had a book released yesterday about the comic Woodbury post-governor. I honestly can't imagine that the average TV viewer would read the Kirkman books, especially because the comic canon is different from the TV show canon.

[NurseGiGi]

i'm afraid so much of the show was hijacked simply because Kirkman had a separate The Governor book for sale, and the series was hijacked as several weeks of commercials.

Didn't work; I am so sick to the back teeth of that character and that storyline I would not give him a penny for a damn book about it.

Now he has a Michonne book. I just hope to God he doesn't write a graphic novel about Tara; just imagine the hellacious TV episodes that could inflict on us.

Well, last season (or possibly the one before, can't remember) Scott Gimple said they would be more closely following the graphic novels which filled me with dread.  And what do we get?  A comic book replica of Eugene, Abraham and what's her name.

 

I honestly believe that some of the show's problems have come from Kirkman's behind the scenes manipulations.

 

I didn't know he had books out about the Governor and Michonne.  Interesting.

Edited October 15, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[kikismom]

Yeah, and in an interview, Josh McDermitt actually said "I'm not saying there will be an entire episode entirely about Eugene, but it would explain a lot"  and that's when I quit reading because I had a panic attack.

[Armchair Critic]

Off topic but with a 2nd person from the Dallas hospital now diagnosed with ebola, the end of the world gets a little more realistic. Then I was thinking I better start working out, right now if I had to run to save my life I would end up being easy zombie chow...

[mightysparrow]

One of my problems is that in order for Carol to look good, how many characters have to be erased?  Michonne, Maggie, Sasha were reduced to Beth-levels of invisibility so Carol coud be Queen of the Badasses.  If the character is strong enough, she should be able to stand up WITH the other characters not instead of them.  And did Tyreese need to be emasculated for Carol's sake?  A man like Tyreese, who's apparenty soooooooooo dangerous that Carol had to be banished for her own protection, is reduced to carrying an infant and shrinking from the thought of violence.  Bullshit.

 

And Carol was able to pick out Rick's fucking watch (from a stash of watches) yet she couldn't get Michonne's katana? 

[LilySilver]

It's a bit unwieldy if you don't have the sheath.

 

And Carol is kind of obsessive about watches, apparently.  Or the writers are. What does it mean?!

[bosawks]

I liked the look of Daryl in seasons 1 and 2 but now the hair just makes him look like a 40 something year old man trying to look like a twenty something.

 

I think it makes him look like Jane Fonda from "Klute" except not as tough.

[mightysparrow]

 

It's a bit unwieldy if you don't have the sheath.

 

But a crossbow is so manageable?

[kikismom]

 

And Carol was able to pick out Rick's fucking watch (from a stash of watches) yet she couldn't get Michonne's katana? 

. I would guesstimate that just as the Gov did, Gareth would take and keep the katana as a special trophy.

Edited October 15, 2014 by kikismom

[gaPeach]

I am a die hard TWD fan so it would take a lot for me to stop watching.  I watched this show from the first episode and knew it was going to be my type of show when Rick took out the kid walker.  That showed guts for what is usually taboo on TV.

 

I was not a fan of Carols and wanted her to be Zombie food back at the farm when she would not vote about the fate of Andrew the kid the rescued from the Walkers back at the bar.  But her character has certainly developed and its realistic (to me anyway) and I am loving it.  What Carol did in this episode just reinforced what she has evolved to from last season when she did what she had to do to save the rest of the group.  I think the writing of how she did it was off but I did not care.

 

I find most if not all the relationships interesting and most of the current regular characters interesting.  Except Eugene and the other two.  But we have not really gotten a chance to know them or see them do anything other than follow Glenn and get caught by the Termites.  But I don't care.  I love the show.

 

My sister and I drove down to where they film the show back during 3rd season and went into the building the filmed the bar scene and where they ended season two outside by waterfall.  That was hard to find because it is in the middle of nowhere but that did not stop us from getting out of the car and taking out picture with that in the background grinning like kids on Christmas.  We also went to where they filmed Woodbury and I have a picture of me in front of the Governor's house.  It was totally awesome!

[LilySilver]

But a crossbow is so manageable?

I was only jokingly attempting to explain it, but yes the crossbow apparently had a strap and could be slung across her back.

 

Since she had just informed Martin that she was a friend of the "chick with the sword", I would have thought she would be looking for it specifically.  And I also would have expected her to pick up as many weapons as she could carry without being weighed down. And to be in a bit of a hurry, not browsing through the watch department like she's at the Macy's jewelry counter.

[NoWillToResist]

 

One of my problems is that in order for Carol to look good, how many characters have to be erased?  Michonne, Maggie, Sasha were reduced to Beth-levels of invisibility so Carol coud be Queen of the Badasses.  If the character is strong enough, she should be able to stand up WITH the other characters not instead of them.  And did Tyreese need to be emasculated for Carol's sake?  A man like Tyreese, who's apparenty soooooooooo dangerous that Carol had to be banished for her own protection, is reduced to carrying an infant and shrinking from the thought of violence.

 

I didn't get the sense that the others were diminished so Carol could be propped up.

 

All the ladies in the boxcar were gearing up for battle and Michonne looked at the approaching walkers with a "shit's gonna go down and I can't wait to fuck things up!" smile. Once released, all the women were hacking and stabbing their way out of Terminus and Sasha(?) saved Eugene.

 

As for Tyreese, his pacifism (can't think of a better description) isn't new, to my knowledge. And eventually even he stepped up and killed some fuckers that needed killing.

 

Carol didn't waltz back into their presence all "what's up, bitches? Guess you're happy to see me, huh?" She approached them slowly and cautiously. She put the ball in their court, to determine how they would react to her. I honestly don't think she thought it was a given that she'd be welcomed back.

[JackONeill]

Wait -- there's a book of the Governor?!?  His mother must be the only one to read it.

[kikismom]

I didn't get the sense that the others were diminished so Carol could be propped up.

 

All the ladies in the boxcar were gearing up for battle and Michonne looked at the approaching walkers with a "shit's gonna go down and I can't wait to fuck things up!" smile. Once released, all the women were hacking and stabbing their way out of Terminus and Sasha(?) saved Eugene.

 

As for Tyreese, his pacifism (can't think of a better description) isn't new, to my knowledge. And eventually even he stepped up and killed some fuckers that needed killing.

 

Carol didn't waltz back into their presence all "what's up, bitches? Guess you're happy to see me, huh?" She approached them slowly and cautiously. She put the ball in their court, to determine how they would react to her. I honestly don't think she thought it was a given that she'd be welcomed back.

Yeah, Jeez talk about being erased, Carol's damn character has disappeared  for periods of time twice on this show. Trapped in the tombs and thought dead, and then banished by Rick and a question (not just by the characters but by the viewers) if she'd ever return. Michonne, Maggie, and Sasha were never written out of the story while TPTB decided if they would get pink-slipped or not.

And Tyreese didn't want to kill walkers at the fence, he didn't want to kill walkers on a run, and none of that involved allowing Carol or anyone else to be a badass. On the contrary, IMHO it was the show avoiding the cliche of a big black man must be a Mr. T caricature...Tyreese has deep conflicts about violence, and it didn't start when he headed for the railroad tracks after the massacre. I think the line he says to Martin about not knowing what he's done is going to be more complex than we know; certainly not a time-worn trope.

Wait -- there's a book of the Governor?!?  His mother must be the only one to read it.

It was written by Gareth's girlfriend who owns a ukelele store. You've probably never heard of it.

[mightysparrow]

 

I was only jokingly attempting to explain it, but yes the crossbow apparently had a strap and could be slung across her back.

 

I know you were joking.  I was joking too.

 

And she really did look like she was at Macy's and not in the middle of a firefight.  Taking a few weapons along would have made sense but the writer were too busy fan-pandering to worry about sense.

[mandolin]

Wait -- there's a book of the Governor?!? His mother must be the only one to read it.

There are actually four books about the governor.

Eta: The comic book version, that is

Edited October 15, 2014 by mandolin

[kikismom]

Some of the Michonne story was done in several parts in Playboy. No, not those kind of parts.

[mandolin]

Oh yeah, I read that! I enjoyed it. JUST THE WORDS.

[nodorothyparker]

My husband's read the governor books and liked them.  He still didn't like the all governor all the time episodes, at least in part because they brought the prison story to a dead halt.

[Ocean Chick]

I didn't get the sense that the others were diminished so Carol could be propped up.

 

All the ladies in the boxcar were gearing up for battle and Michonne looked at the approaching walkers with a "shit's gonna go down and I can't wait to fuck things up!" smile. Once released, all the women were hacking and stabbing their way out of Terminus and Sasha(?) saved Eugene.

 

As for Tyreese, his pacifism (can't think of a better description) isn't new, to my knowledge. And eventually even he stepped up and killed some fuckers that needed killing.

 

Carol didn't waltz back into their presence all "what's up, bitches? Guess you're happy to see me, huh?" She approached them slowly and cautiously. She put the ball in their court, to determine how they would react to her. I honestly don't think she thought it was a given that she'd be welcomed back.





Uncle

 

 

I'm not seeing the others "erased" either.  They were there, ready for battle and killing zombies same as usual.  All our people get moments to shine, Carol included.  Michonne and Maggie have had many episodes where they played major roles, and I'm sure Sasha, Tara and Rosita will also get some.  Why not Carol?  Even though you dislike her, she's part of our gang.

 

The one REAL burning (no pun intended) question I have  - how in the world did the Termites keep all those candles from melting into puddles over the hot Georgia summer(s)?  All those candles looked shop-perfect! 

 

And this show needs more flaming walkers.

[JackONeill]

Wait -- people still read Playboy?

[mightysparrow]

 

 

Michonne and Maggie have had many episodes where they played major roles, and I'm sure Sasha, Tara and Rosita will also get some.

 

Actually, considering that Michonne is probably the lead female character, there's been very little focus on her.  We know next to nothing about her past life and she's never had a story line that was devoted solely to her.  Michonne has been about everybody and everything BUT Michonne.  Whereas we've had almost four seasons of 'Poor Carol' the perpetual victim.  I'm grateful that 'pooooooooor Carol' has apparently left the building though it's probably only a matter of time before poor Sophia's corpse is dragged out again (probably holding hands with Lizzie and Micah's corpses).

Edited October 15, 2014 by mightysparrow

[kikismom]

Wait -- people still read Playboy?

Just not for the articles.

[JackONeill]

I thought the show did a fairly good job telling us about Michonne's background.  Not in exacting detail; then again, we don't details about ANY of our people, including Rick.  I think, in a way, I know Daryl better than Rick.

 

And what about Maggie (who seems to have fallen out of favor of late; I hope it's not just because of the T-shirt)?  She grew up a farm. Check.  Herschel's daughter.  Check.  Can ride a horse. Check.  Sister of Beth. Check.  Has turned into a good fighter.  Check. Accepted a dead woman's ring as a token of love from Glenn.  Check.  But what else?

 

There's a lot about these people we don't know.

[LilySilver]

A few people have mentioned it, but the part of the episode that bugged me the most was the scene in the slaughter room.  The horrific aspect was effective, but the plausibility was nil.  It kept taking me out of the scene (blessedly).

 

Others have mentioned that they didn't fight at all. It couldn't have been that hard to show that they were completely incapacitated in some way, rather than just pretending all 8 of them would simply kneel there, resigned and accepting.  They would have thrashed, fought, rolled...they'd have done something. Sure, they'd still have been killed, but would our gang (or anyone else) go down without a fight, or worse, watch Glen get slashed without a fight? No way.  I don't know why they didn't clean that up a bit.

 

Then the too convenient arrangement of the 4 redshirts first, then our four guys.  As someone mentioned above, it would've been nice if at least one redshirt had made it.  But then what to do with that redshirt...

 

And then the repeated  halted half-swings as Gareth interrupted at the moment of Glen's doom. I actually thought this was meant as a bit of comic relief, it was so silly.  Then again, standing there with his clipboard just feet away from his partially butchered brother? Cold, Gareth. Stone cold.

 

Last, that Gareth had wanted to speak with Rick was so contrived.  That he would pull Bob's gag off was silly--as if he'd want to hear what he had to say.  If he had wanted to talk to Rick, did it just happen to occur to him conveniently before he was bled out?  Obviously, we wanted to hear Rick say that he'd kill Gareth with the machete. Sexay!!  But so contrived.  Ah well, this ain't exactly HBO.

 

And then the blast and what do you know? We're saved!!

 

Still, it went primarily to characterization of Gareth as one cold, sick mo-fo.  And that can't be for nothing, which makes me squirm more than the scene itself did.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LilySilver

[Seawolff]

One of my problems is that in order for Carol to look good, how many characters have to be erased?  Michonne, Maggie, Sasha were reduced to Beth-levels of invisibility so Carol coud be Queen of the Badasses.  If the character is strong enough, she should be able to stand up WITH the other characters not instead of them.  And did Tyreese need to be emasculated for Carol's sake?  A man like Tyreese, who's apparenty soooooooooo dangerous that Carol had to be banished for her own protection, is reduced to carrying an infant and shrinking from the thought of violence.  Bullshit.

 

And Carol was able to pick out Rick's fucking watch (from a stash of watches) yet she couldn't get Michonne's katana?

I don't know that other characters were erased for just so Carol could shine....I'm a strong person but if I were locked in a box I'd be significantly compromised in comparison to someone who was not. Besides, those people in the box are the most bad ass people in a box that I can imagine.

I never thought Tyrese was emasculated by being the person so awesome that he can survive the same disaster as everyone else, and do it with kids. Again, I have personal experience with being both bad ass and being bad ass with kids. You get more kudos for being bad ass by yourself but really it takes a heluva lot more guts to not ditch the kids in a pinch. That he chose to protect the baby is a statement of his priorities and his abilities.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I am a bit tired of hearing how Tyreese needs to 'grow a pair'. While people were running for their lives, he took the time to grab a baby and herd two little girls to safety. Tyreese doesn't have to prove shit to anyone. I think Tyreese's reluctance to kill is being blown out of proportion.

ITA. Rick gets a lot of press for constantly having to reevaluate his humanity in the midst of the ZA -- and it's not wrong -- but in some ways I think it's easier for him as a natural leader and one-time law enforcement agent to come to terms with regularly committing acts of violence than it is for a nurturer with an inherently gentle nature. Ty can't compartmentalize. Not that anyone is challenging this, just saying for the sake of it that I get why he'd flip out on someone who doesn't give a shit about killing a baby to save themselves. That would be the most unnatural thing in the world to someone like him.

I like Carol a lot but feel the group let her initial behavior slide because even in post-apocalyptic society, at least at first, women are expected to crumble and burly black men are expected to be tough motherfuckers (which Ty still is, IMO, for the same reasons you stated). I never bought the epic love affair of Karen and Tyrese, but he cared for her and she was murdered. He cared for Mika and she was murdered. He cared for Lizzie and co-signed her murder. And all this has happened to him in what, a couple of weeks? Everyone in the group -- everyone in the world still alive -- has PTSD. If his manifests in not wanting to kill walkers right away...I don't feel it indicates a lack of character.

Edited October 16, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[NoWillToResist]

 

how in the world did the Termites keep all those candles from melting into puddles over the hot Georgia summer(s)?  All those candles looked shop-perfect!

 

Maybe they made their own from the leftover human fat?  /shudder

[lulee]

Actually, considering that Michonne is probably the lead female character, there's been very little focus on her.  We know next to nothing about her past life and she's never had a story line that was devoted solely to her.  Michonne has been about everybody and everything BUT Michonne. 

Which -for better or for worse - was a decision by the writers about how to unfold the character of Michonne, keeping her backstory sealed off for long, just like her personality. Absent any evidence of calculus by the writers to take time from Michonne's story and give it to Carol, I can't see laying the underdevelopment of Michonne at Carol's feet.

And I hardly thought Tyrese seemed emasculated as he was pounding RomanCandle's head into the cabin floor.

[mightysparrow]

I don't know that other characters were erased for just so Carol could shine....I'm a strong person but if I were locked in a box I'd be significantly compromised in comparison to someone who was not. Besides, those people in the box are the most bad ass people in a box that I can imagine.

I never thought Tyrese was emasculated by being the person so awesome that he can survive the same disaster as everyone else, and do it with kids. Again, I have personal experience with being both bad ass and being bad ass with kids. You get more kudos for being bad ass by yourself but really it takes a heluva lot more guts to not ditch the kids in a pinch. That he chose to protect the baby is a statement of his priorities and his abilities.

 

Personally, I don't think Tyreese is less of a man for not wanting to kill everyone that crosses his path or because he cared for the children.  In fact, Tyreese is THE man of the ZA, in my opinion because of who and what he is.  But I've grown tired of all the talk about what a wimp Tyreese is when he's the exact opposite.

 

For Judith's sake, Tyreese has continued to travel with someone he probably despises.  Tyreese forgave Carol but I think he did that more for himself than for her.  He didn't want to carry the hatred and the anger in his heart.  But one look at Tyreese at the beginning of 5.1 shows a man who was having a hard time forgetting.  The days after the grove must have been hell for Tyreese.  He had been hoping that they could stay in that house and have some kind of life.  Instead there was only more horror and death.  And then he finds out that the person who he thought was a comrade and a decent person, murdered the woman he loved while she lay helpless in her sickbed. I think Tyreese is a hero and doesn't get a fraction of the props he deserves.  Yet Killer Carol is practically canonized.

 

I'm praying that the premiere episode isn't the shape of things to come and that we can get back to episodes focusing on the whole group.

[6 MeowMeowBeenz]

Maybe they made their own from the leftover human fat?  /shudder

 

Which IMO would be another reference to the Holocaust. 

[Boofish]

I laughed at the oh-so-convenient way the 8 were lined up though. Gosh, look at that! The red shirts are on one end and that's the end the baddies decided to start with, rather than the end which is closer to them. They even killed everyone UP to our boys; no red shirt left standing. I wish they'd been interrupted after killing 3 red shirts just so that it wasn't so completely fucking obvious external TPTB manipulation.

 

The line up to me was perfect because I'm a fan of the comics.

Since the discussion does not really belong here let's just say for all readers of the comics, no one wants to see a bat anywhere near Glenn

Edited October 17, 2014 by HalcyonDays
Added spoiler tags

[JackONeill]

No one has a perfect, cookie-cutter personality.  We weeble, we wooble.  We may think we're decisive and strong, and maybe we are, but then something like a herd of Walkers come along to dissuade us of what we thought.  There's no telling what any of us would do in a situation that our team find themselves in.

 

I read a book a long time ago that was written by some high-ranking military guy.  I don't remember the guy's name nor do I remember much of the book.  What I do remember is him talking about boot camp.  He said he could often tell who was going to wash out.  He said the brawny, big-mouthed types would often wash out.  But the quiet guys -- those were the ones you had to watch.  They could turn into killing-machines.