The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow: "I'm Not A Stranger to Complications"

[phoenics]

Abbie is about to get a love interest. That's worth tuning in to see how that goes. I'm just excited that we'll actually see Abbie's life outside of witnessing - and see the impact of witnessing on her life.

All of this just sounds great and I cannot wait to see it.

If the new show runners prove that they don't care about Abbie and her life and showing the fullness of it and only want to show Ichabod and continually let him act a fool on her without repercussions, then I'll reassess. Until then, I don't want to hold this new Sleepy Hollow show that is trying to get back to its roots responsible for the failures of Mark Goffman.

[Indi]

To be fair, it doesn't seem like anyone here is seeing him through rosy glasses.  I think it's more that there are differing opinions on interpretations of what he's doing and how he's reacting.  For instance... where you saw an impersonal expression of regret, I saw an introvert looking inward, to understand his own motivations, before acknowledging his own deep regret for what he did.

Ichy an introvert? :O

 

LMAO! Oh I laughed a good 10 minutes at your "ugly as sin" comment. I don't find him that ugly, but I can see that you are very passionate about him being that ugly (to you)! LOL! Well played, Indi, lol. Well played.

I know!

I wasn't trying to be funny though. I've never found Mison particularly attractive or hideous, but I admit Ichy's personality pushes the character into ugly territory for me.

 

Meh - I don't see SBR as being his lady love - I think SBR's comments about Ichabod doing something impulsive for a woman are actually referring to Abbie. I'm prepared to be wrong, but I really don't think it's about Betsy at all. I don't think she'll be on the show past this season, if she even makes it through the whole season.

Sorry, I meant that Sexy!Smart!Betsy meant Katrina was that special woman in Ichy's future, not Betsy herself. Definitely not Abbie, unless the impulse is to cause her harm, which he has done many times. I don't think that's the kind of impulsiveness Sexy!Smart!Betsy meant. Most definitely Katrina, who apparently will never lose her grip on this show if Ichy has any say.

 

And actually - we spend more time being mad at Ichabod for how he acts than we do Katrina.

 

I don't think that's really accurate, at least not while she was alive.

[phoenics]

I think in terms of Katrina - the ire was more about the lack of acting skills in portraying her and how she was written (as in, she shouldn't have been there). I also think that many fans resented her being there at all because it felt like a deliberate attempt to usurp Abbie. And a deliberate attempt to assure some fans that Ichabbie would never happen, so not to worry. A lot of the ire at Katrina was more behind the scenes, imo. The character was used as a hammer against Ichabbie shippers and the actress herself was definitely trying to usurp Nicole Beharie.

It's just not an apples to apples comparison when speaking of the ire with Ichabod vs Katrina. Ichabod is debated on his own merit and there isn't the behind the scenes shenanigans of Tom Mison trying to undermine Nicole or him cozying up with the show runner to take away from Nicole. He's always been very supportive of Nicole and Abbie.

[phoenics]

I just thought about something with SBR and her dialogue in the premiere.

When she said, "Someday some woman is going to make you do something impulsive,"... "I just hope I'm there to see it."

I know we've been debating whether or not she was talking about Katrina or Abbie.

Well, given the idea that she might come to the present with a magic flag, I really believe she's talking about Abbie.

First of all - why dredge up the Katrina thing when 1) she's dead and 2) there's no where to go with that?

And three - if she DOES come to the present - well Katrina is DEAD so that leaves Abbie as the woman that he does something impetuous for and that SHE would have a chance of seeing.

The end.

LOL.

Edited October 8, 2015 by phoenics

[frenchtoast]

Just a quick heads up folks, please read the new announcement in the pinned Notes from the Mods topic. Thanks!

[Yolapukka]

Brought over from the Gender and race thread;

 

 

 

Sidebar: if there were a bar called The Sleepy Wigstand anywhere near me, it would be my new local.

 

I have to think that the addition of her new boss, who sees her in a context that pulls time and focus away from her witness duties, is going to be a bit of a wakeup call for him.

 

 

I'm now wondering if this is part of the reason why the character of Daniel Reynolds is being introduced, as an unavoidable distraction for Abbie, in order for Crane to be in a position similar to the one he placed Abbie in last season. Not only do they have a past personal relationship, but as the representative of her duty to her job, he has a claim on her time and attention that can not easily be deferred. Abbie's job in law enforcement is important to the witnesses' mission it allows them access to needed resources and a blind for their activities. Not to mention that it's been a source of the income that supported both of them. The possibility makes Abbie's comment to Crane about supernatural evil not being the only kind seem a bit more significant. I would like this to force him to acknowledge how badly he treated her in the past, compromised their duty and for him to put his awareness into words in the form of an apology. I do not want to see Abbie's job be seen to balance his behaviour so that it negates that need for apology.

 

I hope Reynolds is going to be written as a dimensional character and I hope their past is given a little depth. I'm not interested in someone who is only there to   to disapprove of Abbie, shoot Ichabod the stink-eye and be this seasons man-pain whiner.

[Julia]

I hope Reynolds is going to be written as a dimensional character and I hope their past is given a little depth. I'm not interested in someone who is only there to disapprove of Abbie, shoot Ichabod the stink-eye and be this seasons man-pain whiner.

 

With any luck, that mansplainy writer who took the fan feedback as some kind of personal aspersion on his realness as a POC is invested in making that character a real person.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Julia

[phoenics]

I really really hope they aren't going to use Reynolds as a foil to Ichabod where Ichabod automatically comes off "the winner". Meaning - I hope they don't pull another Luke on us.

I'd actually really like to see the scenario suggested by kimberella and yuggapukka and Julia - that his presence and treatment of Abbie forces Ichabod to confront some of his past poor behavior and make good.

We'll see tonight what Reynolds is really here for. But it doesn't bode well that he's going to be "jealous" of Ichabod.

[cynic]

I'm still trying to figure out how Betsy fits into Crane's timeline. Crane was turned partly by Katrina. He was involved in the Boston Tea Party in December 1773. He "dies" while married to Katrina in 1781.Betsy's a member of the Culper spy ring, which started in late 1778 in real life (unless they're going to futz that to include her since she wasn't actually member). She was married from 1773 to 1776 and again from 1777 to 1782.

If they did have a fling, there's not a lot of time they could have done it without one or both of them being unfaithful.

Quoting myself since we now have new information. Crane said this episode that he and Katrina were married for six years. Assuming he's including seasons 1/2, that means they got married in 1777. If he meant six years before his "death" that would be 1775.

The Great Fire of New York was September 21, 1776. Considering Sexy Betsy didn't even bother to take a minute to warn Crane about the Greek fire and tell him to get out of NY, I'm assuming they aren't particularly close yet at this time. If we do find out that they eventually had a fling, the timing is going to be really tight. Betsy marries in June 1777 and Crane sometime that same year.

Edited October 30, 2015 by cynic

[DearEvette]

Quoting myself since we now have new information. Crane said this episode that he and Katrina were married for six years. Assuming he's including seasons 1/2, that means they got married in 1777. If he meant six years before his "death" that would be 1775.

The Great Fire of New York was September 21, 1776. Considering Sexy Betsy didn't even bother to take a minute to warn Crane about the Greek fire and tell him to get out of NY, I'm assuming they aren't particularly close yet at this time. If we do find out that they eventually had a fling, the timing is going to be really tight. Betsy marries in June 1777 and Crane sometime that same year.

 

In The Necromancer episode when we first find out that Headless is really Abraham, Ichabod tells us that Katrina broke off her engagement with Abraham and the next day he and Abraham had to deliver the Declaration of Resolves to the First Continental Congress.  That would have been late 1774.  Ichabod and Katrina have professed their love for each other the day she broke off with Abraham. Right before their fight, Ichabod asks for Abraham's blessing.  I can't imagine Ichabod and Katrina waiting three years to get married since they had been giving each other the googly eyes for awhile and Katrina killed, I mean, watched Mary accidentally trip over a root. 

 

Betsy's first husband died in January 1776 and she remarried in June 1777.  At some point she would have needed to mourn her first and meet & fall in love and marry her second husband at the same time flirting with Crane who was already in the throes of epic love with (possibly already married to) Katrina.  Yeah, the timing is either super tight or just super wrong.

Edited November 1, 2015 by DearEvette

[cynic]

Okay, that makes sense if Crane meant six years before he died - 1775. Someone on another board said they remember one of the writers saying Crane and Katrina married in 1775, but I don't have the cite.

So if Betsy and Crane do anything it's cheating. Plus, it seems he's cheating in his heart if not physically anyway.

[fantique]

First of all guys... I think you're thinking too hard about the timeline, they are simply retconning stuff. They're not actually making it out to be during Katrina time. They just don't care enough to place it in the correct spot or can't because the pre-established canon made Katrina ad Abraham the sole reasons why Ichabod was even in America and turned cloak. They're playing or writing it that way so I think we just have to handwave the timeline. 
 

I really really hope they aren't going to use Reynolds as a foil to Ichabod where Ichabod automatically comes off "the winner". Meaning - I hope they don't pull another Luke on us.

I had this paranoid thought while ranting on the episode thread. I think they are trying to not give Abbie/Nicole any scene partners that can threaten the Ichabbie chemistry. At first, I thought that they just simply don't care about Abbie and her emotional journey. But then why bring in her father, Reynolds and have Pandora clearly targeting her more and enjoying torturing her more. I think that they are leading up to a wedge between the team and her turning maybe bad for a bit or making a choice that has the worst consequences. And I think that everything that represents temptation away from Witness duties has been set up. BUT, they need to present being a witness as what is better and they need Ichabod not just to be right but the reason why she is coming back to the good side. If her interactions with him are not the strongest, then it doesn't make sense for her to be brought back. And because it's this show, I know they are going to have Ichabod bring her back, not Jenny. I am probably wrong and it's just that they don't see anything wrong with all their conversations being Ichabod ranting, Abbie babying him or being his cheerleader. Clearly, I am in the smallest of minorities for seeing it that way. It just came to me because I find it super weird how little time she's had with other people this season.
 

I can't imagine Ichabod and Katrina waiting three years to get married since they had been giving each other the googly eyes for awhile and Katrina killed, I mean, watched Mary accidentally trip over a root. 

This will never not be funny to me. *snort*
 

My memory of Abbie and Jenny's history is a little different. Yes, Abbie did lie about seeing Moloch in the woods, but she did it to protect herself when she was a scared and desperate child. And yes, this is what first landed Jenny in an institution. But since then, Jenny's institutionalization has been her own doing--she said this specifically to Abbie--that she kept getting locked up to protect Abbie from herself.
 
And Abbie kept asking Crane why he waited so long to call her. I don't think she was angry he was back. She was angry that he kept himself distant from her for all this time, and it made her guarded and hesitant to rekindle their close friendship.
 
Crane does show interest in Abbie when she lets him into her life, but she's so private and guarded, that this doesn't happen often. He continues to ask Abbie about her father: will she try to find him? Will she talk to Jenny about him? And Crane does have good intuitive skills. He understood a lot about Abbie and Jenny's relationship from the moment he met them, and he continues to give Abbie gentle advice about Jenny. (BTW, it's a shame that Abbie and Jenny don't have more scenes together where they're not talking about a case).

Hmm... I don't know but just like the conversation about the imbalance of the relationship, it seems what I am hearing comes down to "that's just the way it's got to be because of who they are and Abbie is a closed off person who won't let others help". And I'm sorry but for me, who they are is a hurt friend and a shitty one. I can not be convinced otherwise. Because, despite her closed off nature, she allowed herself to trust him and be genuinely open in season one. She closed off after he repeatedly fucked up for a year+. She trusted Corbin and Irving, trusts Jenny and Joe. The onus is on Ichabod to think that there are probably still problems and hurt feelings. It is on him to try to do things, more than once, to make up for the fact that he fucked up without making it a big deal. People act like he should wait for Abbie to work out all her hang ups and then make a sign to signify that she's ready to not keep him at arms' length. That is not how a relationship between two mature adults who genuinely care for each other works. What you're saying is that to fix their friendship, basically Abbie has to get her shit together and trust him fully again, with no incentive or sign that's he's changed. No because Abbie, should be the one to work to keep the peace, Ichabod doesn't have to do anything.

 

One other thing, there is a reason why I bring up characterisation over time. You bring up him being intuitive with the Jenny situation, yeah... That was in the first half of the first season before the fight was made really personal for him. As soon as that happened, I am hard pressed to find a time where he was as attentive. Last season obviously continued that trend and this season's writers have had five episodes. From what I have seen so far of this season, the only time when Crane has addressed that there needs to be effort on his part. I know, I am being harsh because Ichabood probably helps around the house. But I don't really care about that. I care about the thoughts behind the help. I like that he recognised that she is giving up her privacy. But why can't he figure out that their friendship feels weird. 2/3 of the times when he rants  now, she literally isn't even looking at him anymore. She just mumbles and makes sarcastic remarks. He goes on about how they have similar experiences but doesn't find it odd that she just doesn't respond? Or how it doesn't seem like she ever talks about herself or her day or her job with him? Sure it could be happening in offscreen land, but there is no precedent that allows me to make that leap and the character of Ichabod hasn't given me the impression that he would ask or wouldn't talk about it onscreen if they did.

My friends certainly would have asked me what's wrong a long time ago if every time they talked to me I basically on autopilot. Just because she's a private person doesn't mean he can't ask her what's wrong or if she's ok. If they showed him asking multiple times and failing, I would be ok with that because he tried. He hasn't tried. I don't care about what he did two years ago, he hasn't tried in recent history except for when the plot demanded it. It certainly doesn't help my perception that people feel the rift and put it all on Abbie/Nicole. Oh, she felt cold this episode, oh Abbie should open up. Why? What reason has he given that he will listen and take care not to upset her if it is ever a choice between his interests and hers? I don't care how funny his rants are, I don't see why people want her to show that much enthusiasm for something she hears every day.  

Edited November 2, 2015 by fantique

[topanga]

 You bring up him being intuitive with the Jenny situation, yeah... That was in the first half of the first season before the fight was made really personal for him. As soon as that happened, I am hard pressed to find a time where he was as attentive. Last season obviously continued that trend and this season's writers have had five episodes. From what I have seen so far of this season, the only time when Crane has addressed that there needs to be effort on his part.

 

Excellent points, fantique. The show has fallen so far from where it was in Season 1, where Abbie was Crane's equal partner, not just his benefactor and part-time psychotherapist. The writers and creators decided in Season 2 that Abbie's value as a person and character are worth far less than Crane's. They assumed the audience tuned in to watch the adventures of Ichabod Crane and all of his family drama, and the big ratings drop last season showed that this was not the case. And though season 3 is better than season 2 in that regard, TPTB have never returned Abbie to her initial position as Crane's equal.

 

I do think Crane still cares about Abbie and her life. And I do think Abbie remains distrustful and guarded. But the writers have decided that there's no need for Crane to reach out to Abbie more, as a true friend would. I've given up on ever hoping that will be the case, but maybe his character will evolve. We'll see.

 

 

 

I know, I am being harsh because Ichabood probably helps around the house. But I don't really care about that. I care about the thoughts behind the help

That reminds me of a scene from the movie "The Breakup":

 

(paraphrased)

Vince Vaughn: Jeez, I'll wash the dishes.

Jennifer Anniston. You see? No, I want you to want to wash the dishes.

VV: Why would I want to wash dishes?

[bethy]

I must have been mulling over the Ichabod romantic life v. Abbie romantic life subconsciously, because last night I realized it reminds me of the Mulder v. Scully dynamic in the X-Files. They were partners with great chemistry and the will they/won't they dynamic that lasted for seasons and a creator who loved to tease the fans - aborted kiss in the movie, anyone? And my memory is that they played a lot more with Mulder's romantic life than they did with Scully's. There were episode flirtations for Scully, but nothing that was ever even hinted at long term (if I remember correctly and admittedly it's been a while), but with Mulder there was the woman from his past in the episode where Crowley was lighting people on fire and the whole Diana Fowley(?) set of episodes.

 

I wonder if the "Ichabod gets a girlfriend" plot while Abbie doesn't have a current love interest is at least somewhat about male writers and their ability to write their fantasies - the male partner gets romantic/sexual storylines while the female partner - and perhaps ultimate love interest for the man - remains "chaste." 

 

Several days ago someone on another thread mentioned not having really considered Abbie's lack of romantic partner in terms of a racial stereotype because the stereotype when they were young was of the highly sexualized black woman (prostitute, etc.), (I hope I'm not misrepresenting what was said. If so, I'm sorry.) And that was actually where I was coming from as well, and thought that Abbie's representation as a professional woman, who isn't defined by her romantic relationships was a positive. It's been interesting and enlightening to read people's view on how Abbie's sexuality is represented.  

[Julia]

I wonder if the "Ichabod gets a girlfriend" plot while Abbie doesn't have a current love interest is at least somewhat about male writers and their ability to write their fantasies - the male partner gets romantic/sexual storylines while the female partner - and perhaps ultimate love interest for the man - remains "chaste." 

 

I think it's more their assumptions about what's involved in a MF relationship. If you look at the couples who they've gotten together on procedurals, the woman is always substantially disempowered first. I think it's because their model for a MF relationship is one where the woman is less in some way, and there's no context for traits like strength and self-assurance in that model. That's why I think there's this counterintuitive insistence that they're respecting Abbie by keeping her alone, because there's no space for her to be badass as a life partner to a man.

 

These articles subscribed, if I continue to endure you a little longer, I may by degrees dwindle into a wife. —Congreve

Edited November 3, 2015 by Julia

[bethy]

I think it's more their assumptions about what's involved in a MF relationship. If you look at the couples who they've gotten together on procedurals, the woman is always substantially disempowered first. I think it's because their model for a MF relationship is one where the woman is less in some way, and there's no context for traits like strength and self-assurance in that model. That's why I think there's this counterintuitive insistence that they're respecting Abbie by keeping her alone, because there's no space for her to be badass as a life partner to a man.

 

I think I see what you're saying, and I would agree that there are certain presumptions about MF relationships along the lines you mention. But at least in the X-Files, Scully was strong and self-assured, and I wouldn't qualify her as substantially disempowered in their relationship. Yet they still kept her alone. I think you're right about their believing they're respecting Abbie by keeping her alone, but - to me - that's more about her being a woman than about her being a black woman. 

[kimberella]

Yet they still kept her alone. I think you're right about their believing they're respecting Abbie by keeping her alone, but - to me - that's more about her being a woman than about her being a black woman. 

I have no doubt, that it's about Abbie being a black woman, not just "a woman".

 

As much as they want to compare this show to The X-Files, this show has nothing to do with it, except that they are genre shows. I prefer to compare Sleepy Hollow to the other shows Orci&Kurtzman have produced and see if this pattern of "respecting" the woman vs. the black woman holds. Alias and Fringe, both shows by the same production team with white female leads. On screen love interests from day one and declarations of love with the male lead 2-3 seasons in. Their latest project, Scorpion, with a white female lead: also no problem giving her a love interest.

 

We have been explaining from day one to all of them: Iscove, A. Baiers, the writers in their general twitter account as well an indivisually, Albert Kim, etc... how problematic and racist it is to turn Abbie into a work horse without a love life. There have been essays and articles written about it. They are professionals in this business, so they are well aware of this and more. They can't feign ignorance. It's a conscious choice to deny Abbie a love life on screen. It's also a conscious choice to give the white women in this show love lives and have people praise their beauty and talk about how special they are.

 

So yes, they do have a problem with their black female lead, a very hideous one.

 

[bethy]

Interesting. I definitely see your point in terms of other shows by the same team. 

[kimberella]

I think they are trying to not give Abbie/Nicole any scene partners that can threaten the Ichabbie chemistry.

But giving Crane other scene partners doesn't threaten the Ichabbie chemistry? No, I don't think that's the reason. IMO, the reason is that in the writing room Abbie is a lesser, who exists to prop up Crane, therefore there is no reason to consider her a woman worthy of respect. Which explains the way Crane treats her, by the way.

 

I am probably wrong and it's just that they don't see anything wrong with all their conversations being Ichabod ranting, Abbie babying him or being his cheerleader. Clearly, I am in the smallest of minorities for seeing it that way. It just came to me because I find it super weird how little time she's had with other people this season.

It's always been like this. Abbie rarely has scenes with other people, that don't include Crane in the room.

 

And I'm sorry but for me, who they are is a hurt friend and a shitty one. I can not be convinced otherwise. Because, despite her closed off nature, she allowed herself to trust him and be genuinely open in season one. She closed off after he repeatedly fucked up for a year+. She trusted Corbin and Irving, trusts Jenny and Joe. The onus is on Ichabod to think that there are probably still problems and hurt feelings. It is on him to try to do things, more than once, to make up for the fact that he fucked up without making it a big deal.

If you can call that monstrosity a friendship. Not a thing in real life between healthy people. The problem is that the show is not acknowledging any wrongdoing. Abbie is mildly miffed and quickly moves on with no effort on his part.

 

No because Abbie, should be the one to work to keep the peace, Ichabod doesn't have to do anything.

Then again, that seems what the show is trying to say.

 

That was in the first half of the first season before the fight was made really personal for him. As soon as that happened, I am hard pressed to find a time where he was as attentive.

The hook phase. Once the writers convinced the audience Crane was honorable and attentive, there was no need to make an effort. No matter how horrible he has been to Abbie and everyone else, the shiny armor remains, even though it's hollow inside and it looks like that's the only thing that counts.

 

I know, I am being harsh because Ichabood probably helps around the house.

We only saw that doing that once. I doubt he did it again.

 

He goes on about how they have similar experiences but doesn't find it odd that she just doesn't respond? Or how it doesn't seem like she ever talks about herself or her day or her job with him? Sure it could be happening in offscreen land, but there is no precedent that allows me to make that leap and the character of Ichabod hasn't given me the impression that he would ask or wouldn't talk about it onscreen if they did.

My friends certainly would have asked me what's wrong a long time ago if every time they talked to me I basically on autopilot. Just because she's a private person doesn't mean he can't ask her what's wrong or if she's ok. If they showed him asking multiple times and failing, I would be ok with that because he tried. He hasn't tried. I don't care about what he did two years ago, he hasn't tried in recent history except for when the plot demanded it. It certainly doesn't help my perception that people feel the rift and put it all on Abbie/Nicole. Oh, she felt cold this episode, oh Abbie should open up. Why? What reason has he given that he will listen and take care not to upset her if it is ever a choice between his interests and hers? I don't care how funny his rants are, I don't see why people want her to show that much enthusiasm for something she hears every day.

He is a narcissistic psychopath. The only thing he has ever cared about is himself and whatever he fancied at the moment. You have this individual, who leaves his "friend" behind without a word for months, probably living off her money, not giving the smallest shit about her, whether she lives or dies...

He knows she has a very dangerous job, where she could get killed or get hurt any moment and yet her well-being didn't bother him at all for those long nine months. Amazing. The excuse that he needed time for himself To Heal doesn't hold scrutiny, because she wasn't going to hold onto him and beg him to stay. So he gave her the silent treatment for almost a year for no good reason. Then he came back and contacted her, because he needed her help. Some friend that!

I don't see a reason why would Crane ask Abbie what's wrong? So that he can use it against her? She told him her secret about her father and what did he do? Give her comfort? No, use it against her the first opportunity he had.

But for some reason Abbie repays him by opening her home to him, by supporting him in every way possible and, of course, by play matchmaker for him, because in this show her main purpose is to prop him up.

[Free]

But for some reason Abbie repays him by opening her home to him, by supporting him in every way possible and, of course, by play matchmaker for him, because in this show her main purpose is to prop him up.

 

For some reason, the writers made it too 1-sided.

[frenchtoast]

Folks, this subject of the Crane/Abbie friendship seems to really become heated. Please remember when posting to make it about the show and not about people/You/posters. There is no requirement that we all come to an agreement. A few posts have been edited, but if it continues we will have to just delete.

[calibabe]

Lies! Nothing but lies. That line is straight outta Mark Goffman’s season two playbook. He said almost the exact same thing last year when he was interviewed after the disastrous mid-season finale.

 

Six episodes into season 3 and SH is an unmitigated flop. The Witnesses are further apart than ever before and episode after episode is bogged down with forgettable storylines, pointless flashbacks and a need to once again focus on Crane’s personal life.

 

How is watching Titsy Ross hit on Crane week after week going to eventually mean something for the Witnesses? How are Crane’s date nights going to in any way bring about some grand realization for the Witnesses? Hmmm? When the writers say Witnesses, what they really mean is Crane.

 

The Witnesses and their bond are no longer the focus of this show and it hasn’t been since season one. The focus is on Crane and his growth. Abbie is just along for the ride. Anyone who believes anything different has not been paying attention to what they have shown us. Stop listening to what the writer-producers SAY and instead pay attention to what they DO, and what they actually choose to show us week after week.

 

They’ve destroyed Ichabod and Abbie. They have destroyed the Witnesses. The two can’t spend five minutes together without Zoe or Daniel or someone else being the topic of their conversation. The rampant criticism of fans this season is proof that the writers have failed in their so-called attempt at making it all about the Witnesses.

 

And I cannot say in enough ways how much I hate the way the writers use Abbie to prop up other women in Crane’s eyes. All Abbie does is co-sign every wench the show sends his way, while gleefully being written as some career obsessed shrew that DON’T NEED NO MAN.

 

This notion that these writers, this group of people, have fucked up the first half of the season, but are gonna miraculously bring it all together in the second half, is laughable. They’re gonna bring it together alright, but not the way fans want.

 

All this crap the writers are spewing about great things coming are a lie. Come on, people, are we really gonna fall for that again? The idea that Crane dating Zoe is vital to the Witnesses growth is a joke. I posted on another forum today telling people Zoe is not going to be a Catalyst for anything Witness or Ichabbie related. Again, when the writers say WITNESSES, they mean Crane only.

 

I come from the days of "Moonlighting" the Cybil Shepherd/Bruce Willis series that defined shipping. The "tension" or "chemistry" or whatever it was that the two had is what made the show. Season after season people were clamoring for them to be together. Well the writers finally bowed to that pressure and the show DIED. There was no more chemistry or tension or anything because now since they were together it was gone. IT totally sucked the life out of the series. Willis left shortly after that to pursue a Hollywood career and Shepherd hung onto the series like a life raft adrift in a huge ocean not being able to find dry land to get off on. What I am saying is it killed the show. What if the writers putting Crane and Abbie together kill what little vibe there is and the show totally implodes more then what it is now. I mean the whole premise with season one was this guy from the 1700's is awakened and the Headless Horseman (who we desperately need somewhere in this series) along with him who is to usher in the apocalypse. In comes a female black sheriffs lieutenant and the 1700's guy and her are now witnesses to the apocalypse per Revelations. That premise worked beautifully for the 1st season. There WAS an instant chemistry between Crane and Abbie. Right from their first scene together. However right off the bat as viewers we were told how much he loved his wife. At the end of season one Crane manages to spring said wife from purgatory while leaving Abbie in purgatory. Maybe that is the metaphor for their entire relationship from the get go. Maybe that would be their relationship if the series actually brought them together. Why can't Crane love Abbie, but not in a sexual way but in another way? Why can't they be good partners, great friends, almost like family but not all the way to the bedroom?

 

Maybe from the get go Abbie's character was always going to be work-driven with a personal life or relationship secondary to what she is. In the first season we learned that she and Luke were involved but that only lasted an episode or two at the most. Possibly during season 2 a relationship with the photographer in the Fenestella episode might have been hinted as a potential side story but that never materialized. I would assume that the old saying of "all work and no play makes (fill in the gap) a dull boy/girl" and maybe that is why they have given Crane the need for female companionship. Heck Abbie was essentially throwing Zoe and Crane together two episodes ago when she told Crane "she's a good one".  Maybe what makes Abbie, Abbie is the fact that she is so focused on a career and furthering it that there is little room for anything else in her life at the present and potentially in the past. Maybe her character views relationships (romantic ones) as something that takes her off her game and she needs to be totally on her game especially now that she is as she calls it a "witness with a capital W" so to speak. 

 

Now as for Boobsy Ross/TitsyRoss or whatever other acronym, lets just hope she stays firmly rooted in the past. She doesn't need to somehow time travel and wind up in the present nor does she need to have a great-great-great-great-great granddaughter/neice/whatever in the present that bears a "striking resemblance" to the aforementioned seamstress of our flag. If she is a character from the past she needs to stay in the past. End of story. I think any movement of her from that time period into the present is going to be met with a resounding negative response as it should be. It is fine to build backstory as to how Crane was involved in this war of good and evil from the Revolutionary War to present but any persons from that time period need to stay dead. We got rid of General Howe in one fell swoop. That is where the twistory needs to stay.  However you ask the question how is this ever going to "be vital to the witnesses growth"? Maybe by focusing on Crane and his supposed relationships it is setting the table for what is ultimately wanted. Maybe after countless other attempts at trying to be with someone else, Crane will come to the realization that the one he needs to be with is Abbie. Maybe this is the direction they are headed into. However the writers aren't going to spoil that endgame at this point in the season. Maybe it is the proverbial dangling carrot (personally I hope that they reel that sucker straight back and in because I think it will kill this show). 

 

I don't like what the writers of Bones did during the crossover by throwing it in the faces of fans of SH with all the sexual innuendo if that is not the way that the writers of SH ever intended to take the characters. That seems to me like a cheap shot at the very least to try to intimate that they might be headed this way but that the writers of SH never for a million years would ever think of going in. I would think that at some level there had to be discussions between the two camps on how to approach and dissect the characters for the crossover. To throw that in as a lark is beyond cheap if they thought that would somehow get people to continue watching. It was uncomfortable to watch as well. 

 

I think that as perfect partners, Crane and Abbie compliment each other perfectly. They are each other's ying/yang. Maybe that is why Crane also looks uncomfortable with other females as well. Maybe that is the design. He never, ever looked comfortable with nor had any chemistry with Katrina on so many levels. Personally I would love if at the end of the season that the big bad behind it all was revealed to be an ever powerful, more vengeful Katrina who has been completely transformed into an evil that is even unrecognizable to Crane. That her death at his hands fed right into some hidden prophecy that a witches death at the hands of a witness would turn said witch into an all powerful evil of unspeakable proportions and virtually unstoppable. Unfortunately they killed that character so badly both in writing and how she was portrayed that there is no coming back from it. All these tests this season have been very personal for each witness. Why wouldn't making the biggest bad something that while so inconceivable to most would make the most sense out of everything. Frankly I don't think the writers nor the producers nor anyone connected with the show would have the courage to do that. I do think that Abbie's character needs better development but not as the romantic part of the equation. They really need to delve deep into the story with her and Jenny's father and what that brings to the table. Also her relationship with Reynolds. Does it stay as boss/employee or does it develop when Abbie tells him what it is that is happening in SH, if she can and if she does will he believe her? Those are all directions that this can go.

[jhlipton]

I come from the days of "Moonlighting" the Cybil Shepherd/Bruce Willis series that defined shipping. The "tension" or "chemistry" or whatever it was that the two had is what made the show. Season after season people were clamoring for them to be together. Well the writers finally bowed to that pressure and the show DIED. There was no more chemistry or tension or anything because now since they were together it was gone. 

 

The "Moonlighting Curse" has been dispelled over and over. It had nothing to do with tension between the characters and everything to do with tension between the actors.  

 

If the hero gets a new friend, the writers don't go for artificial barriers to keep them apart.  They use the difference in the personalities to further the plot (see Grimm and Monroe or Sherlock and Joan).  If the hero and heroine get romantically involved they can do the same thing (see Jake and Amy on Brooklyn 9-9).

[Julia]

The "Moonlighting Curse" has been dispelled over and over. It had nothing to do with tension between the characters and everything to do with tension between the actors.  

 

If the hero gets a new friend, the writers don't go for artificial barriers to keep them apart.  They use the difference in the personalities to further the plot (see Grimm and Monroe or Sherlock and Joan).  If the hero and heroine get romantically involved they can do the same thing (see Jake and Amy on Brooklyn 9-9).

Good point.

[BestestAuntEver]

The "Moonlighting Curse" has been dispelled over and over. It had nothing to do with tension between the characters and everything to do with tension between the actors.

If the hero gets a new friend, the writers don't go for artificial barriers to keep them apart. They use the difference in the personalities to further the plot (see Grimm and Monroe or Sherlock and Joan). If the hero and heroine get romantically involved they can do the same thing (see Jake and Amy on Brooklyn 9-9).

Elementary is a great example. I still see wonderful chemistry between Sherlock and Joan with their type of shipper moments while they both have outside friendships and romantic relationships.

[Yolapukka]

I tend to think Moonlighting is an awful example of the dire consequences of bringing together a teased couple. Speaking as a fan of the initial seasons I lost interest as a regular viewer because there was no meat to the teasing, just increasingly contrived roadblocks. There was something badly off about the two stars interactions as time went on, so it was no surprise when news of backstage feuding broke. That antipathy fed the banter, but it made moments that were actually supposed to be romantic very uncomfortable to watch. Pairing them was less fan-service than a desperate attempt to prop declining ratings and like many couples that are all tease, they were awful together, not least because all the forced separation had done a good job of establishing why they were actually a terrible couple. (see also "Friends", Ross and Rachel, the only reason I wanted those two together by the end was I wouldn't wish them on anyone else.)

 

One of the reasons I love the witnesses is romantic is the least of their chemistry, they have ample connection on all levels, their success as a pair does not rise and fall on whether they they can muster sparks (which they do).  By least of their chemistry I don't mean inferior, I mean least explored, it's an aspect of their interactions that was dropped midway through season one when the show decided to play with the notion that Katrina could be rescued from purgatory (which ought to have meant passing into the next life)  and then actually did so and centred her in the main cast, like she was some sort of surprise breakout character instead of a droning bore. Heres the thing about romance on this show, anything involving the witnesses with others is not going to work out.  As well as upsetting fans of the ship it's just not on with anyone else, it's never going to be much more than a c-level plot and a distraction and when it intrudes into the main plot it's because that other person is a liability who is endangered and needs rescue. Abbie and Ichabod have a destiny that puts those who are close to them in danger, both personal danger and danger of being a tool of the other side. That can be a compelling story, but when you know where it's going to go before it goes anywhere, it's hard to get invested in a minor character and when they try to make that character important, they risk another Katrina-style disaster. Ichabod and Abbie already have solid bonds that have survived a lot, including acts of bad faith on Ichabod's part and Abbie's tendency to keep her emotions private. These two aren't about longing looks, missed connections and sad-faced pining. If they get together, it should be a lively joyful thing to watch. 

[Dizzychickstar]

Putting characters together romantically doesn't just automatically kill a show...like some epic on/off switch. It's up to the writers to stay true to the integrity of the characters and balance the change in the relationship with other parts of the world of the show. In other words, if pairing characters together kills a show, there are probably other weaknesses or issues the show already has and said relationship may act as a crutch or mask the plot is supported by/hides behind. I think an ichabbie pairing could work well as long as both characters, especially Crane, put all of their issews on the table and their pairing doesn't swallow their functions as Witnesses in the overall story. Particularly if the chem goes back to season 1 levels.

[Miss Dee]

I think it should be easier on a genre show, where the romance doesn't have to play the main role in the plot. I can see that being difficult to keep fresh. The main concern on this show should still be saving the world!

[fantique]

Maybe what makes Abbie, Abbie is the fact that she is so focused on a career and furthering it that there is little room for anything else in her life at the present and potentially in the past. Maybe her character views relationships (romantic ones) as something that takes her off her game and she needs to be totally on her game especially now that she is as she calls it a "witness with a capital W" so to speak.

This might not make sense, I am having a hard time verbalising it properly.

Okay, why explain keeping Ichabbie platonic by pointing out that Abbie is all about work and running away from relationships? To me those two are separate, there is the issue of Abbie with her love life and past that there is the issue of them liking each other that way. I would say that the fact that she dated a colleague not once, but twice points to her not having problems having a relationship and working at the same time. If the writers wanted to present Abbie as someone who doesn't do relationships when she is working, they wouldn't have had be in ones with people that she would probably have grown close to while working and with whom, due to the nature of her job, she inherently trusts her life. Andy scared Luke away but right before that, Abbie was amenable to hanging out again. When he bailed, she then said that maybe it was for the best but she wasn't saying no.

Abbie isn't refusing romance, she just doesn't see Ichabod in that light. Aside from Reynolds (does he really count?), the other love interest they stuck her with was gross, and also into her sister. At this point I understand that what stands in the way of potential Ichabbie romance is that she is not seeing Crane that way and neither is he. For example, she didn't rebuke that journalist's advances the way she did Hawley by acting like it wasn't happening. I think right now, the show isn't going there because the characters are not in that mode with each other. Now, why they have awkward set ups for Abbie's relationships is another question entirely and one I would like the answer to.

 

Possibly during season 2 a relationship with the photographer in the Fenestella episode might have been hinted as a potential side story but that never materialized. I would assume that the old saying of "all work and no play makes (fill in the gap) a dull boy/girl" and maybe that is why they have given Crane the need for female companionship.

I meant to address this but the damn mobile config is annoying as heck. From this and what I quoted above, are you saying that it's OK with the writers for Abbie to be boring then? Or are you saying they think that Ichabod can only be interesting if he has a love interest? Either way there is a problem. The former is a stupid view for the writers to have on one of the leads of the show and the second means that there is something wrong with the character of Ichabod and it needs to be fixed. Edited November 19, 2015 by fantique

[jhlipton]

For example, she didn't rebuke that journalist's advances the way she did Hawley by acting like it wasn't happening

 

I think I would rather see him back instead of Reynolds,  I would definitely prefer to see him back rather than Boobsy or Zzzzzzoey. 

[fantique]

I don't know...He was trying way too hard in my opinion. BUT, it could have been interesting because, presumably he is always travelling, they could have had them be in a casual relationship that does take up screen time (the actor doesn't even need to be there since the writers seem to be freaked out by the idea of showing her in a relationship *derisive snort*) and still be a reflection of her commitment and trust issues. I mean, I really don't want relationship stuff on this show, it works better when operating on a crazy fun ride of BSC but I find the imbalance in the treatment of both characters' emotional landscapes to be unacceptable. Especially after a year of Cranepain, it wasn't just his family drama that was overkill.
 
What I assumed would be storylines:
Abbie: witness duty, FBI life and Reynolds (we have seen so very little of that and it's been basically swallowed into 'FBI life' and rendered moot).
Ichabod: witness duty, citizenship (we have seen so very little of that and it's been basically swallowed into 'Zoe' and rendered moot) and Zoe.
Actual storylines:
Abbie- witness and work
Ichabod- witness and dating
Results of this, I am waiting for Abbie to explode and I zone out when anything non-witness related happens to Crane and don't care about Abbie's FBI life because past the first episode it was no fun. I mean I know they talk about it but seriously, what the hell is happening with that citizenship? What are the problems that turn Crane into Grumpy Mcgrumperson? Because until he mentioned it, I assumed it was all going smoothly since the only lip service they've paid to its process being a hurdle is...drum roll, a JOKE about how inaccurate history books are. Which in turn made me super pissed off by his behaviour because all I was seeing was him ranting and bitching about time having an effect on life and low key taking it out on Abbie while she ignored him. I swear, I saw on Twitter someone saying they were proud of Ichabod for not yelling at Abbie last episode! So there are at least two of us that feel like he was being less than nice to her. And honestly, if it wasn't all on top of them seeming to be actively trying to avoid Abbie talking about her feelings, I wouldn't care as much. I'm easy to please, have explosions, some snippy dialogue and fun villains.
  

Elementary is a great example. I still see wonderful chemistry between Sherlock and Joan with their type of shipper moments while they both have outside friendships and romantic relationships.

I love this example. Especially because the witnesses at their best remind me of the Sherlock and Watson dynamic. And Elementary does it with a female Watson so there are no excuses. I really wish the writers would follow this model. And see, Sherlock is a drama queen that is not always being the most attentive but he is redeemed by the fact that there is no doubt that Watson is his most important friend and Watson trusts him. In Sherlock, he fucked up and Watson blew up at him and then he got forgiven. I wish the show had done that last year but especially this year.

It's even similar with Ichabod disappearing without any sign of life and when he comes back Jenny is cool but Abbie is not! In both cases they appear, interrupt the course of their partners' lives, for the second time. The tension was even around the same thing, Sherlock/Crane left and Watson!Abbie moved on, but then their friend reappears and wants to go back to the way things were without caring that they destabilising their life. Difference: Watson blows up at Sherlock and forgives him after a life threatening situation and expresses his happiness at his return. OTOH, Abbie doesn't express her feelings, is slightly passive-aggressive and seems to forgive him after he is almost killed. Why is the resentment possibly still here and the partnership damaged? Because Abbie never dealt with those feelings and of course after her friend almost dies, following nine months of radio silence, she is ready to forget the issues. But can she forgive?

 

I am going to try and take a page out of some posters' book and hope that there will be a pay off because right now, it seems like the writers don't how to deal with Abbie and their partnership as equals. I won't say they don' care because she is basically the linchpin of the main plot right now and all the plotlines are converging on her but it's done clumsily. I mean after the Katrina mess of trying to have everything in their universe happen because of her or how a character feels about her, they should know that's not what necessarily makes a character compelling or interesting for the audience. I am still puzzled by Reynolds' existence and why they felt the need to give their relationship that backstory if they were going to ignore it mostly and make it about her career but not in a "grounding the thematic in the emotional" kind of way.

 

PS: does anyone know how to find scripts for shows? I am curious about something.

[DeLurker]

I am going to try and take a page out of some posters' book and hope that there will be a pay off because right now, it seems like the writers don't how to deal with Abbie and their partnership as equals. I won't say they don' care because she is basically the linchpin of the main plot right now and all the plotlines are converging on her but it's done clumsily. I mean after the Katrina mess of trying to have everything in their universe happen because of her or how a character feels about her, they should know that's not what necessarily makes a character compelling or interesting for the audience. I am still puzzled by Reynolds' existence and why they felt the need to give their relationship that backstory if they were going to ignore it mostly and make it about her career but not in a "grounding the thematic in the emotional" kind of way.

 

I think this is the real issue, but it does not just apply to Abbie.  Ichtrina was an unmitigated disaster from start to finish.  Zzzzoey says it all.  And whatever they were trying to do with Sexy Betsy Ross never worked - SBR never worked as a character (failing miserably compared to the number of successes they've had with other historical figures) and the so-called Mr & Mrs Smith vibe?  Ich and SBR had all the appeal of day old gruel.

 

I think NB and TM do a fantastic job showing us believable glimpses of the emotional connection between Abbie and Crane.  And the utterance of a single word or phrase like when he says "Abbie" carries so much emotional currency. 

 

Until the writers figure out how to put it on paper in a believable manner, I'll stick with NB's and TM's interpretation.

[Julia]

I think part of the problem is that we as a society have a problem picturing equal relationships, to the point where it's a cliche for people in same-sex relationships to be asked which one plays the part of the man (with all the penetrative dominance baggage implied) and which is the woman (&c). And you'd expect people who write about humans for a living to know better, but even if they do they most likely report to people who don't, who have producers that don't, who are answerable to network suits who don't...

 

Cut for bandwidth.

 

[Dizzychickstar]

To add to that...seems like Abbie is being kept visually virginal until she and Crane...consummate. She is obviously attractive, other characters clearly find her desireable, but she is not shown acting on her own desires. I do wonder if some would lodge criticism if she was shown in other physically intimate relationships before ichabbie happens, the whole slut shaming idea, even though her fully realized character should enjoy the various pairings alluded to on screen. Crane, on the other hand, is shown being desired and desiring other women, making him appear all the more "manly."

[jhlipton]

Zzzzoey says it all.  And whatever they were trying to do with Sexy Betsy Ross never worked - SBR never worked as a character (failing miserably compared to the number of successes they've had with other historical figures) and the so-called Mr & Mrs Smith vibe?  Ich and SBR had all the appeal of day old gruel.

 

Unlike some people, it looks like the new PTB can learn from their mistakes -- I haven't seen either in the last few episodes.  I think they quickly saw that neither was working and rather than doubling down (like Goof Man did), they cut the deadweight.

[Miss Dee]

That's not to say either one has disappeared forever...they might have an integral part of the main plot that can't be cut out without ruining the whole...but even taking them out if it's unnecessary for them to be there still illustrates what you're saying, jhlipton.

[Yolapukka]

I don't think either woman was meant to be significant, they were just minor ingredients in a dish that didn't need them at all, Betsy was supposed to be a bit of spice, Zoe was filler. I like Zoe, but I don't need to ever see her again, nothing depends on her presence. Betsy was a mistake. I appreciated the idea of her kick-ass self, it's certainly preferable to an ineffectual witch who struggles to remain conscious, but she was a jarring mess of tropes and anachronisms, plus there was all the WTFuckery of her mere presence in the timeline. She might have worked rejigged as a minor fairytale character on OUAT but she didn't work in this supernatural universe at all. 

Edited November 22, 2015 by yuggapukka

[phoenics]

I had a few thoughts about relationships here, specifically how all of the relationships appear to be foils or metaphors for Ichabbie.

Boobsy Ross and Ichabod: Her comment about Ichabod abandoning propriety and doing something impulsive for the right woman was definitely about Abbie. We speculated this in the beginning, but fear and PGSD (Post Goffman Stress Syndrome) prevented many from really being able to consider that SBR/Ichabod was only ever meant to reveal that Crane had never really had that great love that made him crazy enough to cross all lines. I'm gonna Handwavium on Katrina/Ichatrina, since that was Goffman and I want to get over my PGSD.

zzzzZoey & Ichabod: They were supposed to bond because they were "similar". The show is pretty clear that they don't work well - they are too similar... and zzzzZoey represents a way to come into the present while still staying in the past because zzzzzZoey and her interests lie in the past. So she's an "easy" option for Ichabod to remain with what he knows, without having to face the 21st century like everyone else. She's the opposite of Abbie - who IS the 21st century - and honestly where Ichabod's heart/soul/existence truly lies. But she (Abbie & the 21st century) also represent fear on Ichabod's part - like he said, he wants to "acculturate" but is afraid. He doesn't want to lose Abbie but he's still yearning for the past. I feel like Abbie's loss (temporary) will force Ichabod to abandon his attempt to recreate the past in order to hold onto it and come into the 21st century. He can still be himself. And he's most himself hen he's with Abbie - who is in the 21st century. I talked in circles, but hopefully what I said is clear.

Reynolds: Ichabod is definitely jealous of Reynolds and he is afraid that Reynolds will "take" Abbie from him, assigning her to some job somewhere - away from him. Ichabod sees that Reynolds represents Abbie's original "dream" before he came along and he's afraid he's going to lose her to that.

Joenny: The writers have paralleled Ichabbie and Joenny all season. Joenny is more physical... Ichabbie is more cerebral. Plus, Ichabod's advice and prodding to Joe, "talk to her" and then "logic flees when matters of the heart are involved" and "there are lines we do not cross" clearly foreshadow what Ichabod needs to do with Abbie, or will do for Abbie.

Ichabod and Paul Revere: Revere's line to Ichabod about not letting anyone in too close, for it would break you is clearly foreshadowing Ichabod's loss of Abbie.

The Hidden One & Pandora: After EVERYTHING Pandora has done to get this dude out - I believe he's going to betray her. I think her seeing that betrayal will constrast with everything Ichabod will do to get Abbie back and how connected they will be (Ichabbie) once she gets out of hell. Pandora will see that and rue the day she fell for The Hidden One and realize she's been used.

With Goffman, I couldn't even begin to speculate this way... but with these writers, I believe they actually follow through - so if it's in the writing, there is a meaning to it. And I honestly think that meaning is that all of these relationships exist as foils/props/pushes for Ichabbie.

Just my thoughts.

[MissAlmond]

Boobsy Ross and Ichabod: Her comment about Ichabod abandoning propriety and doing something impulsive for the right woman was definitely about Abbie. We speculated this in the beginning, but fear and PGSD (Post Goffman Stress Syndrome) prevented many from really being able to consider that SBR/Ichabod was only ever meant to reveal that Crane had never really had that great love that made him crazy enough to cross all lines. I'm gonna Handwavium on Katrina/Ichatrina, since that was Goffman and I want to get over my PGSD.

zzzzZoey & Ichabod: They were supposed to bond because they were "similar". The show is pretty clear that they don't work well - they are too similar... and zzzzZoey represents a way to come into the present while still staying in the past because zzzzzZoey and her interests lie in the past. So she's an "easy" option for Ichabod to remain with what he knows, without having to face the 21st century like everyone else. She's the opposite of Abbie - who IS the 21st century - and honestly where Ichabod's heart/soul/existence truly lies. But she (Abbie & the 21st century) also represent fear on Ichabod's part - like he said, he wants to "acculturate" but is afraid. He doesn't want to lose Abbie but he's still yearning for the past. I feel like Abbie's loss (temporary) will force Ichabod to abandon his attempt to recreate the past in order to hold onto it and come into the 21st century. He can still be himself. And he's most himself hen he's with Abbie - who is in the 21st century. I talked in circles, but hopefully what I said is clear.

 

 

Phoenics, you're on fire!   ITA with zzzZoe, I mentioned this before:  Ichabod is connected to her the way he was connected to his old clothes - they're a link to his past. 

 

No need to worry about another attack of PGSD (ha!) by adding Katrina as "not" being Ichabod's great love.   Remember, that relationship started off with betrayal (Katrina was betrothed to Abraham) and guilt which led to a loss of a head.

[DeLurker]

Phoenics, you're on fire!   ITA with zzzZoe, I mentioned this before:  Ichabod is connected to her the way he was connected to his old clothes - they're a link to his past. 

 

No need to worry about another attack of PGSD (ha!) by adding Katrina as "not" being Ichabod's great love.   Remember, that relationship started off with betrayal (Katrina was betrothed to Abraham) and guilt which led to a loss of a head.

It has got to be said - Headless was a lot more interesting and sexy than Abraham.

 

I can't find it now, but  whoever came up with zzzzZoe is awesome.

[Indi]

Boobsy Ross and Ichabod: Her comment about Ichabod abandoning propriety and doing something impulsive for the right woman was definitely about Abbie.

 

Even if Campbell wants to imply this is about Abbie, it's too late, he already did all of that and more for Katrina.

 

That's what happens for not wanting to acknowledge S2, while, at the same time, wanting to replicate many of Goffman's ideas, to show he can do them better. Fine, he did them better for the most part, but when the bar is so low, I don't think it's such a great accomplishment and that's why this season feels more like a reboot of S2 than early S1. Ichy is still a talker "I don't want to lose you (paying my bills)", conveniently forgetting he didn't give a crap about her, when he left.

 

By all means, he can make Ichabbie happen if he wants to (assuming he is not lying), but metaphors are not a good way, when so much actual work on the characters is needed. Sleepy Hollow has taken the worst approach and is relying on tell and not show. Side characters used as arrows to point to Ichabbie is not entertaining and it's not good writing, when the relationship between the Witnesses has been lukewarm at best. I don't buy that Abbie would fall for a selfish clown like Ichy and Ichy's actions are so far removed from a man in love it's hilarious. When would that falling in love have happened? When he was absent for almost a year or when he was enjoying his date with Zoe?

[Iamsweetdee]

 When would that falling in love have happened? When he was absent for almost a year or when he was enjoying his date with Zoe?

 

This is the part that makes me laugh. When did he fall for her? He was either shacking up with wifey, on a walk-about mourning wifey, or dating Zoe. I would like to drink the kool-aid and be down on the hook-them-up train as much as the next, but they lost me with Season 2 and the relationship in Season 3, outside of what 1 or 2 conversations, hasn't been such to make me believe that anything like that could happen.  

[phoenics]

Hmmmmm... I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens then.

:)

[Miss Dee]

I don't think the show is going to come back and have declarations of love within three episodes. I think it's more likely Ichabod will realize his feelings with Abbie gone, then have to deal with that realization once she's back and expecting everything to go back to normal.

I think it'll take a different crisis for Abbie to come to the same realization, and it'll happen later. A, she's got walls a mile high and it's going to take longer. Hopefully sacrificing herself for Jenny will assuage her guilt and that'll start toppling them.

B, the writers know past seasons have seen Ichabod lose his focus and put other things before the Witness bond. They may want to offset that with fandom and to rebalance the story by having him realize his feelings first and have him be devoted to Abbie's happiness in an unrequited way.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Miss Dee

[phoenics]

Miss Dee - I completely agree. I hope my posts don't sound like I expect Ichabbie to fall into each others arms and declare undying love? Not what I meant to convey.

Mostly conveying that I see the writers dropping anvils that CRANE will be the one to fall first... and who knows what will happen with Abbie, lol. As you said, she's got walls a mile high... But part of the awesome for me is seeing Crane struggle against his feelings with Abbie oblivious to the effect she's having on him.

It honestly would have to be Crane first who comes to this... it wouldn't make sense for Abbie to get there first... plus all the foreshadowing has been about Crane w.r.t. Abbie - not Abbie.

[Miss Dee]

No worries phoenics; you and I are on the same page on this, I'm pretty sure!

[Enero]

Miss Dee - I completely agree. I hope my posts don't sound like I expect Ichabbie to fall into each others arms and declare undying love? Not what I meant to convey.Mostly conveying that I see the writers dropping anvils that CRANE will be the one to fall first... and who knows what will happen with Abbie, lol. As you said, she's got walls a mile high... But part of the awesome for me is seeing Crane struggle against his feelings with Abbie oblivious to the effect she's having on him.It honestly would have to be Crane first who comes to this... it wouldn't make sense for Abbie to get there first... plus all the foreshadowing has been about Crane w.r.t. Abbie - not Abbie.

Well Daniel did tell her during his delirious rant in 3x6, that she didn't realize the affect she has on people so this very well could be the case. I honestly think the seeds, though minor, have been there for Crane to make this transition throughout the season.

However, I'm still leary of these writers and what, if anything, they will do with this 'in love' thing. It's definitely the residual affects of the horror that was last season.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Enero

[phoenics]

Well Daniel did tell her during his delirious rant in 3x6, that she didn't realize the affect she has on people so this very well could be the case. I honestly think the seeds, though minor, have been there for Crane to make this transition throughout the season.

However, I'm still leary of these writers and what, if anything, they will do with this 'in love' thing. It's definitely the residual affects of the horror that was last season.

Post Goffman Stress Disorder. PGSD. We've all been suffering from it.

[AnnaMayWong]

On this past Monday, I watched Tempus Fugit for the first time and enjoyed it immensely.

The first season of Sleepy Hollow was a very nice T.V. surprise. During the early advertisements, I thought the program would be another tired hack of a show. Imagine my surprise and delight to be proven wrong.

Aah, but then began The Season of the Whining Witch--banishing my interest. Both the actual actress, Nicole Beharie, and her character, Abby, were used as a talented workhorse in the launching and the laying of groundwork for success and then arrogantly dismissed as unimportant. Utterly dismissed. The showrunner really did not view Abby/Beharie as a True Talent, a multi-faceted ATTRACTIVE woman, nor a STRONG fan favorite. Oh no, in similar vein as many others, he wanted...he desired... the whispery whinging wonder of a Character/Actress Like Katrina/Katia Winter. With much hubris and high-handedness, Katia adopted this perspective, also. I stopped watching. I stopped watching because it was obvious what was goin' on with that.

So, I waited and waited until the present tentatively positive reviews accrued. And, in order to initiate my Season 3 viewing( albeit rather cynically), I watched Tempus Fugit. Fairly needless to say, good decision. Yet, I cannot truly enjoy the show as I did season 1. I am on tenterhooks awaiting the next Nullification of Abby.

__

Edited November 25, 2015 by BookElitist

[phoenics]

I am on tenterhooks awaiting the next Nullification of Abbey.

I totally understand this. But a lot of this is Post Goffman Stress Disorder (PGSD). We all have it and are suffering from it in differing levels.

But Goffman is gone and I don't think the new show runner has given us reason to believe he's shoving Abbie aside. In fact, NB has been really prominent all season and the season seems to revolve heavily around her - especially if you view the relationships on the show as all pointing to Abbie or Ichabbie (I did a post on this up above).

Based on the foreshadowing and hints in the storytelling and the writing, I'm giving the show a chance to prove itself. If it does, awesome! If not, the show will likely be canceled and I won't have to worry about it much longer. And at the first hint of the chicanery you mention above, then I will bolt... but I really think the show is trying to turn itself back around.