Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[MrsR]

3 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

we then saw Rhaegal get killed by the same bolts that the relatively hale and hearty Drogon pulled out of a falcon dive to dodge.

No no no, these are new and improved bolts as is the ballista itself. These can go through the hulls of ships. Qyburn is a clever fellow.

On topic: Sansa is a terrible hostess.

[DigitalCount]

I meant from the recent episode, not the Loot Train. Dany was in a rage and diving straight at the ships on Drogon's back, but thought better of it and flew out of the ballista's range. It looked like Rhaegal was incapable of doing that.

If Sansa was simply lying and/or bluffing, it feels odd to have her say something that actually ends up relatively accurate. Dany blew her off, and now she's losing kids like her name is Cersei.

Edited May 9, 2019 by DigitalCount
It's the Sansa thread, it should probably say something about Sansa herself :/

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

If you're saying that the condition of the wounded soldiers was covered and Sansa just missed it, someone could have simply told her when she brought it up, "We mentioned that already, were you napping?" No one did. Instead the Queen delved into specifics of Sansa's remark, as if no one HAD brought it up. And we later saw the queen flying with her wounded child later, underlining that the concern about going wounded to battle is a real problem.

Great GIF use, though.

Thanks, I'm still cracking up at that GIF.  It's exactly how she came off in that scene and why she earned the "OMG Sansa STFU"-scorn of both Jon and Daenerys. 

In my experience, a military commander will quantify how many combat-ready troops he has.  If he has 3000 men under his command and a third require convalescence, he has 2000 men.  "Half gone" = "Half can't continue or are dead." 

As for why no one schooled her, they're in Winterfell, so no I don't think Greyworm is going to ask the Lady of Winterfell "if she was napping" particularly when she had addressed the Queen directly.  Jon, Daenerys and Arya are really the only three people who should be able to respond, and two of those three did.

Rhaegal was wounded, but combat-ready.  He was flying with ease until he got a bolt to the chest.  Maybe not quite as aerodynamic as Drogon (not sure if he ever was) but it could have just as easily been Drogon who took that bolt.   

There seems to be a popular opinion that Rhaegal's wingholes would have closed up themselves had they given them more time. There must be a Petco next to that Starbucks in Winterfell.

[Portia4844]

5 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I meant from the recent episode, not the Loot Train. Dany was in a rage and diving straight at the ships on Drogon's back, but thought better of it and flew out of the ballista's range. It looked like Rhaegal was incapable of doing that.

If Sansa was simply lying and/or bluffing, it feels odd to have her say something that actually ends up relatively accurate. Dany blew her off, and now she's losing kids like her name is Cersei.

Rhaegal wouldn't have been in danger if only Dany had remembered the Iron Fleet and what Cersei and Euron were capable of.  No amount of rest and healing would have made a difference since D&D have taken over Dany's brain and made her unable to see ships from the vantage point of being so in high the air and placed rocks/cliffs in her way.  

[screamin]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

As for why no one schooled her, they're in Winterfell, so no I don't think Greyworm is going to ask the Lady of Winterfell "if she was napping" particularly when she had addressed the Queen directly.  Jon, Daenerys and Arya are really the only three people who should be able to respond, and two of those three did.

You think Danaerys would have hesitated to say "We covered that already, were you napping?" to Sansa, if they HAD covered the issue of wounded men before Sansa brought it up? She didn't, though. She questioned Sansa more closely about the issues she brought up, instead of pointing out that they'd already gone over this.

Since she was happy to insult Sansa and cast suspicions of treason on her when Sansa didn't immediately have an estimate regarding how much time soldiers need to recover from a major battle, I'd say it wasn't politeness that kept Danaerys from saying "We covered that already, were you napping?" to Sansa; it was the fact that no, they hadn't covered it.

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Rhaegal was wounded, but combat-ready.  He was flying with ease until he got a bolt to the chest.  Maybe not quite as aerodynamic as Drogon (not sure if he ever was) but it could have just as easily been Drogon who took that bolt. 

A human being can walk with a flesh wound in their leg for quite some way as well. But the person will be in pain and their endurance lessened, the flesh wound will likely be aggravated by this treatment, its healing will be delayed, and the longer a wound stays open, the greater the danger of infection and sepsis (no small issue in an antibiotic-free world). I really doubt that most armies would certify a human with a wound right through his leg as 'combat-ready' even if he was capable of walking on it.

Besides, didn't someone on this thread say that Jon specifically said he wouldn't ride Rhaegal because he was wounded? I didn't hear that bit of dialogue myself, so I'm not really sure of it. But if it's so and Rhaegal is unrideable, then no, he's NOT combat ready. A rider is needed to direct the dragon away from danger and toward vulnerable areas to attack.

Edited May 9, 2019 by screamin

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

I really doubt that most armies would certify a human with a wound right through his leg as 'combat-ready' even if he was capable of walking on it.

I'll have to assume that being able to walk/fly from Winterfell to Dragonstone at 10 knots isn't something most humans with an open wound through their right leg would be able to do.    

I have no idea what most armies consider 'combat-ready' for a dragon.  DoD website is no help, either.     

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

You think Danaerys would have hesitated to say "We covered that already, were you napping?" to Sansa, if they HAD covered the issue of wounded men before Sansa brought it up? She didn't, though.

I have in-laws, so I do think she would have hesitated to say that to her beloved Jon's beloved sister.  Has Daenerys rudely addressed Sansa in public before? "What do dragons eat anyway?"/"Whatever they want." is factual, and she restrained herself when Sansa singlehandedly decided Jaime should live based on Brienne's testimony. 

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

Besides, didn't someone on this thread say that Jon specifically said he wouldn't ride Rhaegal because he was wounded?

Jon said he wasn't riding Rhaegal because he didn't need his weight on him in jest since as Tormund pointed out, Jon weighs "as much as two fleas fucking." 

The plan from the beginning was for Dany and the dragons to accompany the fleet, and Jon to surround KL with the rest of the troops by land.

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I have in-laws, so I do think she would have hesitated to say that to her beloved Jon's beloved sister.  Has Daenerys rudely addressed Sansa in public before? "What do dragons eat anyway?"/"Whatever they want." is factual, and she restrained herself when Sansa singlehandedly decided Jaime should live based on Brienne's testimony. 

Saying, "We covered that already," would have been a perfectly factual observation as well if it were true. She didn't make it.

Edited May 9, 2019 by screamin

[Bryce Lynch]

3 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

Rhaegal wouldn't have been in danger if only Dany had remembered the Iron Fleet and what Cersei and Euron were capable of.  No amount of rest and healing would have made a difference since D&D have taken over Dany's brain and made her unable to see ships from the vantage point of being so in high the air and placed rocks/cliffs in her way.  

Right, both Rhaegal and Dany's fleet were victims of Dany and Team Dany having a terrible plan to approach DS, or of horrible writing, depending upon how you look at it.

It really bothers me that the writers had them make such an obvious blunder, without some logical reason for the blunder. 

If Dany charged in to try to save Missy, who had already been captured or to avenge her after her death, that would have made sense.   But, everyone was too complacent (with no good reason to be) not too fired up with anger.

What makes it so much worse is that:

a) Dany and Tyrion had seen Drogon wounded by a scorpion in Season 7.  Surely they would have accounted for the possibility that Qyburn made more.

b) Their fleet had been ambushed by Euron at Casterly Rock.   

They either should have made Dany blinded by rage, Dany not aggressive enough because of Tyrion and Varys or Cersei, Qyburn and Euron even smarter and sneakier.  

Edited May 9, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[ursula]

I'm not even touching this because it's ridiculous. It's Sansa telling Royce to put fur in the armour again. Or Sansa being the only person in the world to realise that Cersei, a liar, was lying. It's the show writing Sansa as brilliant in a room full of seasoned army generals. Apparently none of these men who have actually been in the frontlines know anything about the fundamentals of warfare. They needed Smart Sansa to school them. Dany personally knows more about hunger and exhaustion than Sansa probably ever will, but suddenly she's oblivious to the limits of human (and dragon) endurance. 

It's easy for Sansa to be the Smartest Person in the World if everyone around her is dumbed down and written as fools/idiots. 

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, screamin said:

substitute rape for character development" issue,

I am so angry about this.  Dracarys-angry. 

And I am heartbroken for Sansa that she is so damaged and likely will never have a fulfilling sexual relationship in her life.  That is a supremely cruel ending for her, if she remains alive at the end.  She wanted children and a family at one point, and she has neither now. 

She and Dany should have fallen in love or something.  That, at least, might have given them both some comfort before they die, one way or another.

Edited May 9, 2019 by izabella

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

She and Dany should have fallen in love or something.  That, at least, might have given them both some comfort before they die, one way or another.

I was a serious Deansa shipper before this season just assassinated both of them. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Portia4844 said:

Jon didn't do what Ned of capable of and Sansa's behavior was exactly why Ned kept the secret. 

Ned kept the secret because Robert was killing every Targ in site, baby or not.  Up until the time Ned died?  Robert was still hunting Targs.

Ned kept the secret to keep Jon alive.

The secret no longer needs to be kept.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Rhaegal was wounded, but combat-ready.  He was flying with ease until he got a bolt to the chest.  Maybe not quite as aerodynamic as Drogon (not sure if he ever was) but it could have just as easily been Drogon who took that bolt.    

I don't know, it looked to me as if he had a lot of trouble even taking off, and I do think those holes in him made it very difficult for him to maneuver.  He also looked pooped frankly, struggling...

[GraceK]

Just now, ursula said:

Bingo.

And now she’s playing Kingmaker. Why? She has the North. Tyrion even told her that with Jon in the capitol, she’s the power in the North.  If she truly cares only about the North and Winterfell, she’s all set. They are safe. Dany is on her way to defeat Cersei, her biggest enemy who tortured and abused her, killed her dire wolf and wants her dead. She loves her brother and won’t hurt him. With Jon gone, And bran a vegetable basically, Sansa is all but Queen. So why is she deciding to get involved in the game of thrones and tells Tyrion that Jon is actually Aegon? She just said earlier that the North is tired and not ready for war right? But now, she is literally plunging them into a civil war with a woman who at this point still had 2 dragons, and hasn’t even defeated Cersei yet. Smart move. Divide and conquer??? Seriously? What if Tyrion went straight to Dany and told her what Sansa Said? And she went on the defensive against Jon or Winterfell? You just said your men are exhausted and now when they are planning to attack Cersei your sowing dissent in the ranks ? They can’t defeat both Dany and cersei on their own. Sansa literally just put Jon’s life in danger. Even if Dany won’t hurt him , this knowledge will thrust him into a war he doesn’t want.  And why? Obviously, Sansa doesn’t only care about the North. She wants the Iron throne. With her brother/cousin as King, and him being an idiot,( in her mind anyway cause that’s how she sees him) she’s assured all the power and safety she desires. 

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Ned kept the secret because Robert was killing every Targ in site, baby or not.  Up until the time Ned died?  Robert was still hunting Targs.

Ned kept the secret to keep Jon alive.

The secret no longer needs to be kept.

Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell, who had an army of his own and bannermen with his own armies under him. He could have sat on the Iron Throne and no one would have challenged him. Not even Robert who didn't even fight to be King. (And Lord knows the realm would have been better off for it).

Keeping the secret wasn't the only way to keep Jon alive. It was the way Ned chose to keep Jon alive and that's an important difference. He chose to raise Jon as his bastard, he chose to have Jon go to the Wall without the knowledge of his birth and his birthright. He chose to keep the secret of the real truth behind the War. He chose to let Rhaegar be thought of as a rapist, and his sister as a victim. 

[Heathrowe]

If you told me they were still writing the finale NOW (I know it's filmed, etc) I'd believe it. The writing is not subtle, it seems like it's purposely oblique, as if the writers didn't want to lock themselves into any decisions from episode to episode. Unfortunately, it's at the expense of the characters and a coherent story. I actually feel like Sansa's character has been hampered by this since they reworked the Ramsey Bolton storyline.

[Umbelina]

I don't have an issue with Sansa and Dany not getting along, and I really don't think it's the old trope about "females can't work together" either, as a matter of fact, I never even considered that until I saw it mentioned here.  I've been a feminist since I was a child, and I am sensitive to that shit as well.  I just don't see it here.

What we have are two women with vastly different goals.  Both have been through a lot, but their common goals only united on one front.  Saving Westeros from the White Walker army.  That's it.

Dany WAS thanked, by the way, crowds didn't lift her in the air shouting Misha though, she didn't get her normal gigantic ego strokes to all of her names, she didn't even get to add "defeated the White Walkers!" to her many titles.  She just got thanked by exhausted united forces.  It wasn't nearly enough for her, especially when they then naturally rallied around Jon, who organized the entire fucking thing, and was someone they knew and trusted.

WHY does Dany think the "North" owes her?  As future Queen, actually Queen already in her own mind, wouldn't it be her DUTY to save her realm from monsters who would kill them all. 

Back to the two very different goals of Sansa and Dany.

Dany wants to be Queen of the 7 kingdoms.  7.  That means the North as well. 

Sansa never wants anyone in the North to have to "take the knee" to an outsider again.  She wants a completely independent North.  She's been in the south, and she wants no part of it any longer, and she wants her people to be safe from outside influence as well.

There IS no middle ground for the two of them. 

Sansa wants Cersei defeated as well, and is willing to have the North participate in that goal.  Unlike Dany though, she wants to THINK, to use all of the skills she's learned and to use logic and out think Cersei.  She wants to take advantage of her hard-earned political acumen, and out maneuver Cersei, she is well aware of the kinds of traps and dirty tricks Cersei will use.  She's trying to talk it through, but Jon has already taken the knee and will not listen.

Dany, as usual, and as has worked for her for a long time, just wants to charge in and fight, her methods of conquering have always been based on force, and her nuclear weapons with a heartbeat is a lot of force to use.  She's really never been truly defeated in battle, and battle is what she wants, and what she believes will work.

As far as rest for forces?  Dany has unsullied and Dothraki, and I doubt the would admit they needed rest, it's not in their nature.  Sansa's forces from the North are just regular guys for the most part, farmers and bankers or shop keepers, a few irregular soldiers.  They have lost friends, brothers, fathers in this battle.  They may well have needed a bit of rest, and time to heal, which I think Rhaegar needed as well.

Anyway, it comes down to Dany, an outsider with scary dragons wanting everyone to kneel to her, and to rule it all.  Sansa, who never wants the North to kneel to someone outside the North again.

Neither is going to yield, so no, they won't get along.  If they were men?  It would be the exact same thing, this isn't a "women can't get along" thing.  At all.

[GraceK]

Sansa is a show creation. She’s gonna get a happy ending no matter what. I wouldn’t worry. Since season 5 she has been completely a creation of David and Dan, nothing about her is remotely close to GRRMS character. She’s a pet of the writing team for that reason, they adore Sophie Turner and Sansa is the one character that is basically completely there own. Whatever ending they give her I doubt is George’s, because he personally doesn’t like her at all. (Sansa, not the actress)

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[dirtypop90]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Saying, "We covered that already," would have been a perfectly factual observation as well if it were true. She didn't make it.

Agreed.

Plus I don't think Dany feels the need to show restraint in her conversations with Sansa because of Jon.  What is Jon going to do?  This season he's such a shell of himself I think Dany could throw Sansa in the dungeon and he wouldn't bat an eye.  I think if she feels the need to show any restraint it's because she's concerned about the other Northern houses and their loyalty to Sansa.  She tried to win over Sansa for the same reason she legitimized Gendry.  It's all about  the game.  Sansa is just not playing along.

--

Was anyone else shocked by what we saw of Sansa's reaction to Jon's parentage in her scene with Tyrion.  I didn't expect her to look so...distressed.  And I don't know why she was so distressed.  Perhaps she thinks Dany or someone on her team will off him? or she just feels less safe because she thinks he is more aligned with Dany; hence her strong reaction to Tyrion indicating Jon would be spending his time in the south.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, dirtypop90 said:

Plus I don't think Dany feels the need to show restraint in her conversations with Sansa because of Jon.  What is Jon going to do?  This season he's such a shell of himself I think Dany could throw Sansa in the dungeon and he wouldn't bat an eye.  I think if she feels the need to show any restraint it's because she's concerned about the other Northern houses and their loyalty to Sansa.  She tried to win over Sansa for the same reason she legitimized Gendry.  It's all about  the game.  Sansa is just not playing along.

Oh I think Sansa is playing her own game, and that game, above all, means an independent North.  I think she sees right through Dany's game, and her biggest worry was that Jon had already knelt, and after he did, he stopped listening to Sansa altogether.

I do think Sansa would probably have valuable advice.  Tyrion of course, also has political acumen and knowledge of Cersei's tricks and deceptions and weaknesses and strengths.  However, he is HER BROTHER.  I think Sansa's advice might be more unbiased, and quite possibly more useful.

If they had talked longer before just jumping into "WAR!" as Dany wanted, maybe they would have discussed the possibility of Euron's fleet going on offensive instead of defense for KL, moved into place elsewhere.

Dany is a doer.  Sansa has become a thinker.

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Was anyone else shocked by what we saw of Sansa's reaction to Jon's parentage in her scene with Tyrion.  I didn't expect her to look so...distressed.  And I don't know why she was so distressed.  Perhaps she thinks Dany or someone on her team will off him? or she just feels less safe because she thinks he is more aligned with Dany; hence her strong reaction to Tyrion indicating Jon would be spending his time in the south.

I didn't see that scene as her being distressed about Jon's lineage, but distressed about a Dragon Queen taking over the world, including HER world.  She started the scene asking Tyrion "why HER?" as the new ruler of Westeros and ended it by suggesting there might be someone better (assuming Jon since we didn't get to see the rest of their conversation, another major fail by the writers/directors/producers.).

[dirtypop90]

15 minutes ago, izabella said:

I didn't see that scene as her being distressed about Jon's lineage, but distressed about a Dragon Queen taking over the world, including HER world.  She started the scene asking Tyrion "why HER?" as the new ruler of Westeros and ended it by suggesting there might be someone better (assuming Jon since we didn't get to see the rest of their conversation, another major fail by the writers/directors/producers.).

I disagree.  I definitely agree she was thinking why does Dany get everything...the dragons, the crown, and now her family, Jon,  But she looked pretty shaken up to me about it.  Tyrion thought it was just about Dany, which is why he started talking to her about the fact that they needed to get along.  But she looked fearful to me when she was telling Tyrion she didn't want Jon to go down there and she sounded angry when Tyrion asserted Jon would be spending time down South with Dany.  To me, she seemed to be concerned Jon couldn't survive down there because of his lineage.

Edited May 9, 2019 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I think Sansa is playing her own game, and that game, above all, means an independent North.  I think she sees right through Dany's game, and her biggest worry was that Jon had already knelt, and after he did, he stopped listening to Sansa altogether.

I meant she's not playing along with Dany.

Whether Sansa is playing her own game, I think she is now that she knows about Jon's parentage. I'm not sure she had a game plan before that or at least the writing didn't indicate that she did.  As you said, she no longer has Jon's ear.  If Jon wasn't a Targ, not sure she could do anything to stop Dany from ruling the North.  

[Advance35]

Quote

Was anyone else shocked by what we saw of Sansa's reaction to Jon's parentage in her scene with Tyrion.  I didn't expect her to look so...distressed.  And I don't know why she was so distressed.  Perhaps she thinks Dany or someone on her team will off him? or she just feels less safe because she thinks he is more aligned with Dany; hence her strong reaction to Tyrion indicating Jon would be spending his time in the south.

I thought Sansa realized, one way or another, the sand is almost out of the hour glass.  When Dany gets the Throne, that's it.  The North can kiss any dream of Independence goodbye.   Bran is beyond worldy concerns, Arya is disinterested as long as nobody kills or tries to kill her siblings and Jon is thoroughly Dany's creature now.   An entire region was under the control of House Stark and now in all honesty, it's out of their control again.  Jon seems unable to realize a game is even being played, did you see the simple look in his eye when he was congratulating Gendry.  He didn't seem to realize that was Dany working to secure her hands around the throat of another one of the Seven Kingdoms

Sansa knows anything she wants or anything she hopes can easily be shut down/nixed by a whim of the Dragon Queen, Jon proved he would put the kibosh on anything Sansa wanted if Dany isn't in favor of it.   Sansa likely resents having to go back to being a "Yes your grace" courtier but was grappling with decision of whether she wanted to move forward with her poison pill scheme.

Quote

Plus I don't think Dany feels the need to show restraint in her conversations with Sansa because of Jon.  What is Jon going to do?  This season he's such a shell of himself I think Dany could throw Sansa in the dungeon and he wouldn't bat an eye.  I think if she feels the need to show any restraint it's because she's concerned about the other Northern houses and their loyalty to Sansa.  She tried to win over Sansa for the same reason she legitimized Gendry.  It's all about  the game.  Sansa is just not playing along.

Sansa is definitely on her own.  That war meeting said it all and for all to see.  IF Sansa ever needed Jon but it wasn't in Dany's interest, Sansa loses.   That's why Varys later said, Dany had already bent Jon to her will.  I think the only thing protecting Sansa now is The Vale.  Lord Royce would be livid if Dany did anything to her.   It's why Tyrion said, if Jon did pursue the throne, Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale.

Sansa is hoping she can throw Dany's own technique back at her.  Divide and Conquer.  Sowing the seeds of a rival claim has already done  a good job of eroding Team Dany's' political unity.   Varys during peace time would be a valuable player in Dany's corner, if he were still on her side.

I think Tyrion may have definitely taken the wrong track with Sansa.  By warning Sansa and reminding Sansa of why she should fear Dany's ire, he only increased Sansa's enmity.  Sansa resents feeling powerless and feeling fear.  I have know doubt she contemplated ways she could use her info against Dany, but her talk with Tyrion is what prompted her to move forward.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I meant she's not playing along with Dany.

Whether Sansa is playing her own game, I think she is now that she knows about Jon's parentage. I'm not sure she had a game plan before that or at least the writing didn't indicate that she did.  As you said, she no longer has Jon's ear.  If Jon wasn't a Targ, not sure she could do anything to stop Dany from ruling the North.  

I think she imagines a "game" that Dany really isn't playing.  Dany has nothing but good plans for the North.  

Sansa does seem to have a game plan, though I don't know how detailed or complex it is. 

She might simply want Jon to be crowned rather than Dany.  But, I would think she would have to know that this plan might require killing Dany and could also put Jon's life in danger, along with Varys, Tyrion and herself.  

Given that she should know that Dany might not yield the throne without bloodshed, it might not be unreasonable to suspect that she is planning for Jon and Dany to both be killed, so she can expand her own power.   If she is doing the Littlefinger game of thinking through all possibilities and motives, how not see the potential for that happening?

Whether she realizes it or not, she is probably putting Jon in danger more than Dany.  Jon would never kill Dany, unless it was necessary to save the realm.  Dany might kill Jon if he betrayed her.   

Also, Jon would likely kill anyone involved in killing Dany, unless he was convinced he needed to do it.  Sansa's scheming seems to have about a 5% chance of working out the way she would like it to.  

[izabella]

22 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I disagree.  I definitely agree she was thinking why does Dany get everything...the dragons, the crown, and now her family, Jon,  But she looked pretty shaken up to me about it.  Tyrion thought it was just about Dany, which is why he started talking to her about the fact that they needed to get along.  But she looked fearful to me when she was telling Tyrion she didn't want Jon to go down there and she sounded angry when Tyrion asserted Jon would be spending time down South with Dany.  To me, she seemed to be concerned Jon couldn't survive down there because of his lineage.

She was definitely worried about Jon being anywhere near KL.  She even said, bad things happen when the men in her family go to KL.  She also likely is worried for him because Dragon Queen has dragons and could be dangerous to his health, particularly since he was going to battle.  But I didn't specifically get the impression that she was worried because he was a Targaryan.  We will never know because the show refuses to have any dialogue last more than a couple minutes.

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

When Dany gets the Throne, that's it.  The North can kiss any dream of Independence goodbye.

So Sansa, Smartest Person in the World, thinks that if Cersei stays on the throne, the North is guaranteed Independence? 

[DigitalCount]

Just now, ursula said:

So Sansa, Smartest Person in the World, thinks that if Cersei stays on the throne, the North is guaranteed Independence? 

She probably considers Cersei easier to beat than Dany.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I thought Sansa realized, one way or another, the sand is almost out of the hour glass.  When Dany gets the Throne, that's it.  The North can kiss any dream of Independence goodbye.   Bran is beyond worldy concerns, Arya is disinterested as long as nobody kills or tries to kill her siblings and Jon is thoroughly Dany's creature now.   An entire region was under the control of House Stark and now in all honesty, it's out of their control again.  Jon seems unable to realize a game is even being played, did you see the simple look in his eye when he was congratulating Gendry.  He didn't seem to realize that was Dany working to secure her hands around the throat of another one of the Seven Kingdoms

Sansa knows anything she wants or anything she hopes can easily be shut down/nixed by a whim of the Dragon Queen, Jon proved he would put the kibosh on anything Sansa wanted if Dany isn't in favor of it.   Sansa likely resents having to go back to being a "Yes your grace" courtier but was grappling with decision of whether she wanted to move forward with her poison pill scheme.

Sansa is definitely on her own.  That war meeting said it all and for all to see.  IF Sansa ever needed Jon but it wasn't in Dany's interest, Sansa loses.   That's why Varys later said, Dany had already bent Jon to her will.  I think the only thing protecting Sansa now is The Vale.  Lord Royce would be livid if Dany did anything to her.   It's why Tyrion said, if Jon did pursue the throne, Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale.

Sansa is hoping she can throw Dany's own technique back at her.  Divide and Conquer.  Sowing the seeds of a rival claim has already done  a good job of eroding Team Dany's' political unity.   Varys during peace time would be a valuable player in Dany's corner, if he were still on her side.

I think Tyrion may have definitely taken the wrong track with Sansa.  By warning Sansa and reminding Sansa of why she should fear Dany's ire, he only increased Sansa's enmity.  Sansa resents feeling powerless and feeling fear.  I have know doubt she contemplated ways she could use her info against Dany, but her talk with Tyrion is what prompted her to move forward.

Dany hasn't been trying to divide anyone.  She has been trying to unite the Seven Kingdoms, under her rule.   

The North probably would have had nearly all the independence it wanted under Dany.  She was a friend and protector of the North and she loves Jon.   The idea that she planned to oppress the North in any way is absurd.  She breaks chains, she doesn't forge them.

Dany is, childless, and as far as we know, barren.  She has no heir. The North could probably achieve full independence from the rest of the realm upon her death, assuming they wanted it.  If she does have a child, it will likely be Jon's, and that child would have Stark blood and a father who grew up in Winterfell and is a true Northerner, despite who his biological father was.   

Sansa is playing a really stupid and dangerous game, poking the Dragon, when the Dragon was a friend.   

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think she imagines a "game" that Dany really isn't playing.  Dany has nothing but good plans for the North. 

What?  Her plans are RULING the North, and she has a dragon.  Why on earth would Sansa ever think those are "good plans?"

22 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I meant she's not playing along with Dany.

Whether Sansa is playing her own game, I think she is now that she knows about Jon's parentage. I'm not sure she had a game plan before that or at least the writing didn't indicate that she did.  As you said, she no longer has Jon's ear.  If Jon wasn't a Targ, not sure she could do anything to stop Dany from ruling the North.  

It was a completely strategic move to tell Tyrion about Jon.  It wasn't being a blabbermouth, it was the next day.  Sansa, above all, has learned strategy and to think things through. 

She does NOT want Dany on that throne, but most of all, she does NOT want Dany as ruler of the North.  She doesn't want any outsiders ruling the North.

14 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I thought Sansa realized, one way or another, the sand is almost out of the hour glass.  When Dany gets the Throne, that's it.  The North can kiss any dream of Independence goodbye.   Bran is beyond worldy concerns, Arya is disinterested as long as nobody kills or tries to kill her siblings and Jon is thoroughly Dany's creature now.   An entire region was under the control of House Stark and now in all honesty, it's out of their control again.  Jon seems unable to realize a game is even being played, did you see the simple look in his eye when he was congratulating Gendry.  He didn't seem to realize that was Dany working to secure her hands around the throat of another one of the Seven Kingdoms

Sansa knows anything she wants or anything she hopes can easily be shut down/nixed by a whim of the Dragon Queen, Jon proved he would put the kibosh on anything Sansa wanted if Dany isn't in favor of it.   Sansa likely resents having to go back to being a "Yes your grace" courtier but was grappling with decision of whether she wanted to move forward with her poison pill scheme.

Sansa is definitely on her own.  That war meeting said it all and for all to see.  IF Sansa ever needed Jon but it wasn't in Dany's interest, Sansa loses.   That's why Varys later said, Dany had already bent Jon to her will.  I think the only thing protecting Sansa now is The Vale.  Lord Royce would be livid if Dany did anything to her.   It's why Tyrion said, if Jon did pursue the throne, Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale.

Sansa is hoping she can throw Dany's own technique back at her.  Divide and Conquer.  Sowing the seeds of a rival claim has already done  a good job of eroding Team Dany's' political unity.   Varys during peace time would be a valuable player in Dany's corner, if he were still on her side.

I think Tyrion may have definitely taken the wrong track with Sansa.  By warning Sansa and reminding Sansa of why she should fear Dany's ire, he only increased Sansa's enmity.  Sansa resents feeling powerless and feeling fear.  I have know doubt she contemplated ways she could use her info against Dany, but her talk with Tyrion is what prompted her to move forward.

Exactly.

Characterizing it as "Sansa has a big mouth" or "Sansa can't keep a secret even for a day" is just so insulting to Sansa's character.

Ned kept the secret for one reason, and that is that Robert (his friend) would have killed Jon if the secret got out.  That threat is gone, Sansa knows that Dany knows, so not having anyone else know leaves Jon vulnerable to a "Queen" Sansa does not trust, and does not want ruling over the North.

Sansa has earned her chops in learning to be strategic and use her mind, and think through political games, and possible outcomes.  She's no longer that "little flower" innocent fool she was in KL.  She's paid her dues, and learned, as was aptly shown in Littlefinger's trial.

She thinks things through, she's learned to "play a little game" when trying to figure things out.

[Advance35]

Quote

She probably considers Cersei easier to beat than Dany.

Cersei is an outside force.  A recognized enemy to everyone Sansa comes close to trusting.  Dany is the enemy within the gates.

Slowly eroding everything Sansa has wanted since surviving Ramsay Bolton.

[izabella]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think she imagines a "game" that Dany really isn't playing.  Dany has nothing but good plans for the North.  

I don't think Sansa has any idea what Dany's plans are for the North or the 7 Kingdoms.  Dany hasn't really said what she will do when on the IT.  DAny doesn't even know anything about the 7 Kingdoms except the stories of the mighty Targs who conquered the Kingdoms and then were eventually conquered themselves.  All Sansa knows is Dany wants to rule the North as well as the other Kingdoms.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Was anyone else shocked by what we saw of Sansa's reaction to Jon's parentage in her scene with Tyrion.  I didn't expect her to look so...distressed.  And I don't know why she was so distressed.  Perhaps she thinks Dany or someone on her team will off him? or she just feels less safe because she thinks he is more aligned with Dany; hence her strong reaction to Tyrion indicating Jon would be spending his time in the south.

Honestly, I think she really meant what she said when she said she was worried that the men in her family don't fare well in the south. Presumably Jon told her that Dany knew that he was the true heir to the Iron Throne - but Dany's totally all right with that as long as he doesn't want the throne, really! I don't think Sansa would believe that any more than Dany believed that Sansa would be indifferent to the news that Jon was the heir. A person with a better title and claim to the throne than the actual monarch is always in some danger.

I'm wondering about Sansa giving the news to Jaime and Brienne about the death of the dragon and Missandei. People on the episode thread had said that her smile was 'gloating' about the prospect of Cersei being burnt by dragonfire - but that was a possibility as soon as Dany set out for KL. Honestly, hearing that another dragon is dead and a battle lost before Dany even got to KL? I think to her, it's become a distinct possibility that Dany's going to lose the war and she's smiling bitterly about how fucked they ALL are now and she frickin' warned them, dammit...

Edited May 9, 2019 by screamin

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

She probably considers Cersei easier to beat than Dany.

Sure, because Cersei has been beaten so many times.

Lets' see:

Robert?

Ned?

Margeary Tyrell

The High Sparrow

Grand Maester Pycelle

Olena Tyrell

Ellaria Sand

What makes Sansa even more foolish is that she and the North could live in peace under Dany.  Cersei, not so much. 

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It was a completely strategic move to tell Tyrion about Jon.  It wasn't being a blabbermouth, it was the next day.  Sansa, above all, has learned strategy and to think things through. 

She does NOT want Dany on that throne, but most of all, she does NOT want Dany as ruler of the North.  She doesn't want any outsiders ruling the North.

And by "outsiders" Sansa means anyone other than Sansa Stark.  Sansa bitterly resented Jon ruling the North.   She never showed any love toward or interest in the North until she had a chance to rule it.  

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think she imagines a "game" that Dany really isn't playing.  Dany has nothing but good plans for the North.  

Dany's plans for the north as far as I know are just ruling it, which Sansa doesn't want, so that's not good plans. Dany doesn't have specific ideas beyond that either.

Sansa doesn't want Cersei to rule the North, but the only way to get rid of Cersei is war. That's a given. With Dany Sansa just flat out asked to talk about what would happen. She sees a chance to make independence official in some way.

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What makes Sansa even more foolish is that she and the North could live in peace under Dany.  Cersei, not so much.

I really don't think this is a given--and Sansa probably doesn't either. A ruler in the south is a ruler in the south. One that's leaving them alone today could change their mind tomorrow if they need something. 

Cersei vs. Dany is a false binary if the north is independent. They don't have to choose between Cersei or Dany if they're an independent country who could be an ally.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sure, because Cersei has been beaten so many times.

Lets' see:

Robert?

Ned?

Margeary Tyrell

The High Sparrow

Grand Maester Pycelle

Olena Tyrell

Ellaria Sand

What makes Sansa even more foolish is that she and the North could live in peace under Dany.  Cersei, not so much. 

I don't think Sansa wants Cersei on the throne, she certainly knows how evil she is, first hand.

Planning strategically to defeat Cersei instead of rushing right in doesn't mean Sansa is "more worried about Dany than Cersei."

I think she is worried about both of them, and rightly so.  She wants independence for the North, she doesn't want a King or Queen in the south ruling over them.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

Dany's plans for the north as far as I know are just ruling it, which Sansa doesn't want, so that's not good plans. Dany doesn't have specific ideas beyond that either.

Sansa doesn't want Cersei to rule the North, but the only way to get rid of Cersei is war. That's a given. With Dany Sansa just flat out asked to talk about what would happen. She sees a chance to make independence official in some way.

I really don't think this is a given--and Sansa probably doesn't either. A ruler in the south is a ruler in the south. One that's leaving them alone today could change their mind tomorrow if they need something. 

Cersei vs. Dany is a false binary if the north is independent. They don't have to choose between Cersei or Dany if they're an independent country who could be an ally.

Sansa has no rational reason to be so dead set against Dany having dominion over the North (though as always it would mainly be ruled by the Lord or Lady of Winterfell).   

She certainly has no rational reason to put the lives of Jon and Tyrion, who she claims to care about, in danger, to break her oath, to defy her "brother" and Lord, to risk the North falling under the control of Cersei Lannister, and to put her own life in grave danger.

I also think it is comical for her to think that she could hold the North (which has been devastated by the NK) against Cersei or any other Southern monarch, without Jon or another strong King or Queen in the North.   

Sansa might be crazier than Cersei. 

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Sansa wants Cersei on the throne, she certainly knows how evil she is, first hand.

Planning strategically to defeat Cersei instead of rushing right in doesn't mean Sansa is "more worried about Dany than Cersei."

I think she is worried about both of them, and rightly so.  She wants independence for the North, she doesn't want a King or Queen in the south ruling over them.

She wants the North to be ruled by Sansa Stark, period.   Who were the only 2 people in the room not shouting, "The King in the North" when Jon was declared King?  Who questioned and undermined the Jon constantly when he was KITN and now as WOTN?   

I am starting to wonder if the if in the final 2 episodes they are going to reveal Sansa as being a Cersei level villain.  I can't see any good path for her.  

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She certainly has no rational reason to put the lives of Jon and Tyrion, who she claims to care about, in danger, to break her oath, to defy her "brother" and Lord, to risk the North falling under the control of Cersei Lannister, and to put her own life in grave danger

The North is now in greater danger of falling under the control of Cersei Lannister at the end of this last episode than it did before the start, with the latest dragon death and the naval defeat - and that had nothing to do with anything Sansa did. I think it's reasonable for Sansa to worry that Dany will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for all of them at this point.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

The North is now in greater danger of falling under the control of Cersei Lannister at the end of this last episode than it did before the start, with the latest dragon death and the naval defeat - and that had nothing to do with anything Sansa did. I think it's reasonable for Sansa to worry that Dany will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for all of them at this point.

Sansa broke her oath to Jon and told Tyrion about him before the dragon was killed.  

If Sansa were thinking even a little bit rationally, she would wait until Cersei had been defeated and then schemed against Jon and Dany.   

Stirring up the strife when she did only increased the chances of Cersei winning and then taking revenge on the North and bringing her "little dove" back to KL

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa has no rational reason to be so dead set against Dany having dominion over the North (though as always it would mainly be ruled by the Lord or Lady of Winterfell).   

She has a perfectly good reason to be dead set against it. She wants the north to be independent. Why would that not be a good reason? She doesn't want an outside ruler.

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She certainly has no rational reason to put the lives of Jon and Tyrion, who she claims to care about, in danger, to break her oath, to defy her "brother" and Lord, to risk the North falling under the control of Cersei Lannister, and to put her own life in grave danger.

I think it's a gamble that makes sense, although it's still a gamble. The north is already under Cersei's control since she's on the Iron throne. I can understand her thinking that Jon's true parentage maybe being an advantage at some point if Tyrion's got it. That's presumably why she didn't just announce Jon was king to either the public or to people who would obviously declare for Jon as king. She knows Tyrion and it seems thought from that last conversation that he would be relatively neutral on the question. 

I wouldn't stand behind the writing here as being so airtight, but given the way the now fast-moving story has moved it seems she wasn't wrong in what she thought here. 

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I also think it is comical for her to think that she could hold the North (which has been devastated by the NK) against Cersei or any other Southern monarch, without Jon or another strong King or Queen in the North.   

Sansa might be crazier than Cersei. 

Where does Sansa "holding the North" against Cersei come in anywhere? Cersei is on the Iron Throne now so Cersei already has the north. Sansa isn't planning her own campaign against her. She's hoping that if Cersei is defeated the North can be independent. If Cersei isn't defeated she'd still hold the North.

[Umbelina]

Sansa and Dany's relationship was a non starter from the jump.

It comes down to:

Dany insists Sansa bend the knee, which means the North belongs to her.  Sansa refuses to do that.

The thing is, I don't think Sansa would bend the knee to anyone.  I don't think it has anything to do with Dany being female.  It has to do with independence from the south.  That doesn't mean the north couldn't ally with Dany to defeat Cersei.  It does mean that an alliance would not mean Dany calls all the shots.

Dany will not accept that, she wants all to kneel to her, which, is a pity, because Sansa could have been a great ally in this last war, if Dany had compromised, and agreed to "allies" not "subjects."

It's not that either one is wrong or right, it's that neither will compromise, and both have justifications for their desires, and for their lack of trust in one another.

I admire many things about Dany, but do I think Dany and dragon(s) was a great outcome for Westeros?  No, I never did.  I admire many things about Sansa as well, does that mean I think she's faultless?  No, I never thought that.

In this instance though, I side with Sansa, I see no reason she should bow to Dany.  I also see absolutely nothing wrong with Sansa wanting to rule the north.  Why is it that Dany can want to rule the entire 7 kingdoms and that's great, but Sansa wanting to rule over her home is bad?

They are both doing what they think they should.

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa broke her oath to Jon and told Tyrion about him before the dragon was killed.  

If Sansa were thinking even a little bit rationally, she would wait until Cersei had been defeated and then schemed against Jon and Dany.   

Stirring up the strife when she did only increased the chances of Cersei winning and then taking revenge on the North and bringing her "little dove" back to KL

If Dany falls in battle to Cersei because she's running recklessly on furious reaction instead of cool, calm calculation, then Jon is likely to die in the same battle supporting the queen he swore to - along with whatever fighting men the North has left. Sansa may feel that "waiting till Cersei's defeated' will lead to that instead.

[dirtypop90]

32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

And by "outsiders" Sansa means anyone other than Sansa Stark.  Sansa bitterly resented Jon ruling the North.   She never showed any love toward or interest in the North until she had a chance to rule it.  

Bitterly?  I seem to remember when Jon left to meet Dany, she told Bran she wished Jon was there with them, and sticking up for him.  I also remember her genuinely telling Jon he was a good ruler before he left for dragonstone.  No, she doesn't always agree with him, but I never got the feeling that she wanted him out. 

Sansa never showed any love for the North when she was living there as a young girl and dreaming of princes and castles.  Hardly a crime.  And understandable given how dark and cold the North is.  But horrible things happened to her when she left home and that led to her longing and love of home.

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Where does Sansa "holding the North" against Cersei come in anywhere? Cersei is on the Iron Throne now so Cersei already has the north. Sansa isn't planning her own campaign against her. She's hoping that if Cersei is defeated the North can be independent. If Cersei isn't defeated she'd still hold the North.

But the Vale in supporting Sansa and helping kill Ramsey is in already in open rebellion against Cersei. The Vale has food, men and wealth - the North might be able to cobble an alliance of independents together against Cersei.

Edited May 9, 2019 by screamin

[dirtypop90]

52 minutes ago, screamin said:

 Presumably Jon told her that Dany knew that he was the true heir to the Iron Throne - but Dany's totally all right with that as long as he doesn't want the throne, really! 

Oh gosh...of course he did.  He's so simple.  I REALLY wish we got to see Sansa's reaction when Jon told her Dany knew and everything is fine!  Is cursing allowed under the godswood?

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Dany insists Sansa bend the knee, which means the North belongs to her.  Sansa refuses to do that.

No she doesn’t. Sansa is irrelevant. Jon already bent the knee. Sansa isn’t queen of the north. Sansa isn’t anything but lady of Winterfell. Dany doesn’t need Sansa to “ bend the knee” because Jon already did it. The fandom is acting like Jon betrayed Sansa, or went behind her back, like she’s his wife or something. She’s not. She has the Vale, sure, for plot purposes, but the North chose Jon over her to be their King. They are loyal to him. And he bent the knee to Daenarys, and promised that once the war for the dawn was over, the North would fight with her to overthrow Cersei . He pledged fealty to Dany.

also, the North isn’t fighting Dany or Jon on any of this. After the battle of Winterfell, they are pretty ok with Daenerys. It’s only Sansa who has a problem. It’s Sansa who is power hungry, and is insisting on “ Northern Independence “ for her own sake. Which is bullshit, because she has it. Tyrion pretty much tells her that she is the power in the North, that  Jon down south leaves her in control. Dany in love with Jon, destroying Cersei, leaves her in an extremely powerful and safe position in the North. 

Her telling Tyrion about Jon’s parentage shows her true desire, that she wants POWER. It’s the not the North she cares about. She wants her brother/cousin on the throne, ruling the seven kingdoms, and herself in a position of power and influence so no one can ever fuck with her again. That’s why she hates Daenerys, because she has everything Sansa wants. Sansa is literally Cersei 2.0 this season, using the men in her life to gain power for herself and trying to destroy the women around her. Tommen and Margery anyone???

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa broke her oath to Jon and told Tyrion about him before the dragon was killed.  

If Sansa were thinking even a little bit rationally, she would wait until Cersei had been defeated and then schemed against Jon and Dany.   

Stirring up the strife when she did only increased the chances of Cersei winning and then taking revenge on the North and bringing her "little dove" back to KL

Jon is blinded by "his love."

Sansa isn't blinded by Dany, she knows that Jon is a threat to Dany, a legitimate heir to the IT.  She knows Dany knows.

OF COURSE SHE TOLD Tyrion knowing he would tell Vary's.  Jon may not realize he may need allies to avoid being killed by Dany, but Sansa has seen too much not to know that.

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Dany falls in battle to Cersei because she's running recklessly on furious reaction instead of cool, calm calculation, then Jon is likely to die in the same battle supporting the queen he swore to - along with whatever fighting men the North has left. Sansa may feel that "waiting till Cersei's defeated' will lead to that instead.

Yes, and Sansa's words about how the men in her family fare in the south (all dead) seemed heartfelt to me.  She is worried for Jon, for many reasons.

2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Oh gosh...of course he did.  He's so simple.  I REALLY wish we got to see Sansa's reaction when Jon told her Dany knew and everything is fine!  Is cursing allowed under the godswood?

Yeah, I am really hoping for a flashback there!  The Lannisters get all the good scenes, unfortunately.

[dirtypop90]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

She wants her brother/cousin on the throne, ruling the seven kingdoms, and herself in a position of power and influence so no one can ever fuck with her again. That’s why she hates Daenerys, because she has everything Sansa wants.

This is where people lose me.   How would Jon on the throne make Sansa more powerful or give her more influence than she already has as lady of winterfell?  Jon doesn't care much what Sansa thinks.   He doesn't listen to her.  But she doesn't fear him, which I think is key.  She doesn't think he would hurt her.  I think she wants him on the throne because she would feel safer under his rule than Cersei or Dany and knows she would have agency over her own life.  Couldn't Dany just kick her out of winterfell and marry her off to Gendry if she pleases?  Dany is also capable of burning her to a crisp for defiance.  Jon isn't.