Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Advance35]

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The Vale are insignificant compared to Dany's troops and until they declare for her, they are yet another fighting force that she needs to conquer. She would probably be more comfortable with them gone. 

Dany might want to wait to see the state of her Army after the AOD.  Does she assume she will have enough Dothraki and Unsullied left alive to march on/and conquer Kings Landing?  Will both her Dragons survive the AOD?  Her gauche power display in 7x07 clued Cersei and Qyburn to the fact that her Dragons CAN be killed.

Pride could go before a fall, if she weren't protected by plot armor.

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Her position as Lady of Winterfell hasn't changed and the Lord of Lady of Winterfell remains the de facto leader of the North regardless of who is in charge at Kings Landing. Sansa was a subordinate to Jon (as KITN) and now she's subordinate to Dany (as claimant to the IT).

Prior to Jon's time in Dragonstone and his falling in love with Dany (a relationship with all the gravitas of a Pepe Le Pew cartoon) she was co-regent of the North.  That is no longer the case.  She is now behind Dany, Tyrion Lannister, probably Missandei, Varys, Jorah, Jon Snow and maybe Davos Seaworth in terms of chain of command.  All that said, she has kept The Vale Army, currently the only untouched military force in the 7 Kingdoms onside.

If Sansa is too ill-behaved for Jon and Dany, they should tell her to pack her bags and be out by dawn.  I'd love to see how that would go over with The Vale.   It would be Dany and her Armies alone against the AOD and then she would have to PRAY she had enough men and dragons left over for Cersei.

[Eyes High]

44 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

But as many of Jon/Dany fans point out, what if there is no tomorrow.  People say Sansa shouldn't be worried about the future, think about the now, but why wine, dine and fake bond if she has no future?  She did it for years, if tomorrow is the end she wants to go out with her power in tact (like everyone else in this world) not subordinate to Dany, then Tyrion Lannister (eager to please a Lannister, You've come a long way Sansa), I'm not sure whom comes next, Jorah? Missandei? Varys and then Jon?

There's no indication that Sansa takes the AOTD threat seriously, much less that she believes in the likelihood of imminent death. And even if her acting out was the product of an existential crisis rather than a simple temper tantrum over having to bow and scrape to someone she dislikes, and there's no indication that that's the case, it wouldn't change the fact that she's doing the opposite of what she should be doing if she really cared about the bigger political picture.

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Jon unceremoniously stripped her of her power. 

He stripped her of nothing. She was only ever the Lady of Winterfell, and she retains that title. And Jon was always going to come back to the North. If he'd come back without Dany, would that be "unceremoniously" stripping Sansa of her power, or merely the natural conclusion of a temporary task which Jon had delegated to Sansa as King in the North? I'm sure Sansa would have loved it if Jon had had the consideration to die while away and leave the North to her, but no such luck.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

Yeah I don't see how Jon stripped her of power.He was KiTN and she was acting in his absence according to his orders.Now her position is the same,Lady of WF. If anyone stripped her of some power she could have had it's the northern lords by not choosing her as Queen.Tho imo they did her a favor.As much as she may want power,now is basically the worst time to be the main one in charge since the apocalypse is coming and all that.No one should envy Jon and Dany imo tbh.

Also isn't Jon Warden of the North?They didn't exactly say it I guess but I remember they released that letter he sent to Sansa and he signed as warden.

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I don't see how Jon stripped her of power.He was KiTN and she was acting in his absence according to his orders.Now her position is the same,Lady of WF. If anyone stripped her of some power she could have had it's the northern lords by not choosing her as Queen.Tho imo they did her a favor..

If anything, Sansa's behaviour since S7 confirmed the wisdom of naming Jon the ruler of the North over Sansa. The Northerners would all be dead with Sansa in charge. At least with Jon at the helm they got Dany as an ally and a fighting chance.

[tangerine95]

Just now, Eyes High said:

If anything, Sansa's behaviour since S7 confirmed the wisdom of naming Jon the ruler of the North over Sansa. The Northerners would all be dead with Sansa in charge. At least with Jon at the helm they got Dany as an ally and a fighting chance.

Yeah I've always said,I think Sansa would do a good job as Queen or Warden in times of peace and when things are normal but as a war against the dead,end of the world times leader it would have been a mess.And while Jon has his faults as leader like everyone does,he was pretty much the best choice because he genuinely sees the big picture and has his priorities straight.I don't see Sansa ever getting Dany's army north if her attitude in this episode is any indication.She probably wouldn't have even tried and they would have died independent and I guess very well fed.Maybe they would have preferred that tho lol

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Dany might want to wait to see the state of her Army after the AOD. 

Well Dany could have done the smart thing by leaving the North to be protected by the Vale, wildlings, etc. I mean it's almost like if the reason she's in the North is to help them or some thing. 🙄

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

If anyone stripped her of some power she could have had it's the northern lords by not choosing her as Queen.

This.

Sansa should have been crowned Queen as the last Stark and King Robb's (known) living heir. She should have been Queen by conquest since she won the Battle. Heck, she should have been Queen as the last Warden's widow since the two titles (Warden and KitN) are basically the same thing in different regimes.

But that would mean making her a woman that directly wields power, not just the "woman behind the man" and it's clear which type of woman that D & D instinctively regard as a threat.

Edited April 17, 2019 by ursula

[Hana Chan]

6 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

she was co-regent of the North

Unless she was sharing the position of regent with someone else, there's no such thing as "co-regent". Jon was KITN. While he was away, Sansa (as LOW) stood in for him and would have relinquished those powers upon his return. She would not have held those powers after his return so bending the knee to Dany did not change Sansa's political position. She still holds the position of leading the primary house in the North that all others rally behind (and does so only because Bran, who should be LOW, is such a weirdo). 

Jon is going to have to do some real explaining to the Northern Lords about his reasoning and that allying with Dany gives them their best chance of survival in the short and long term (because Cersei isn't going away even if they survive the war with the AOTD). That Dany is throwing everything she's got to help them and was willing to do so even if he insisted on retaining the North's independence (this being the real reason that he chose to bend the knee and not because he's in love with her as Sansa is implying - that's just icing on his cupcake). 

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If anything, Sansa's behaviour since S7 confirmed the wisdom of naming Jon the ruler of the North over Sansa.

Sansa spent all of last season being twisted in knots by Littlefinger and nearly turned against Arya. This was after seeing Littlefinger manipulate and later murder her aunt and sell her to the Boltons to be repeatedly raped by Ramsey. Why she would have believed a single word out of his mouth had me shaking my head the entire time. Jon even asked her straight out if she trusted him and she responded that only a fool would. Yet she still took his word that Arya was out to get her and that she deserved to be queen and not some "bastard born in the south". That she finally figured out that he was manipulating her the hold time after he made one error with his lies doesn't speak highly of her political

4 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't see Sansa ever getting Dany's army north if her attitude in this episode is any indication.She probably wouldn't have even tried and they would have died independent and I guess very well fed.

A lot of the story of this show is the gain and use of power and Sam's question to Jon rings really strongly here. Jon gave up power because he felt that, in the end, the North would be served better with Dany and not because he personally benefited. I think that this is going to be held up in contrast to Dany primarily (since she seems driven to seek power above all else). But it should also be help up against Sansa, who seeks power for her own benefit primarily and not because it's what's best for her people. Saving their lives in the face of an invasion of a few hundred thousand ice zombies should take president over whether or not Sansa feels slighted that she should have been QITN.

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

Well Dany could have done the smart thing by leaving the North to be protected by the Vale, wildlings, etc. I mean it's almost like if the reason she's in the North is to help them or some thing. 🙄

Yeah. If Dany really wanted to be petty, she would leave the Northerners to their fates and wait juuuuuust long enough for the AOTD to eradicate everyone in the North before putting her dragons and armies in play. How does that Northern independence taste now?

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

A lot of the story of this show is the gain and use of power and Sam's question to Jon rings really strongly here. Jon gave up power because he felt that, in the end, the North would be served better with Dany and not because he personally benefited. I think that this is going to be held up in contrast to Dany primarily (since she seems driven to seek power above all else). But it should also be help up against Sansa, who seeks power for her own benefit primarily and not because it's what's best for her people. Saving their lives in the face of an invasion of a few hundred thousand ice zombies should take president over whether or not Sansa feels slighted that she should have been QITN.

To be fair, the writers have consistently made it clear that Jon is the sweet, humble soul who cares nothing for titles and power, while Sansa is the grasping, ambitious one who cares very much about titles and power. Sansa is throwing a temper tantrum over a perceived threat to her power while Jon is trying desperately to save everyone's lives. The contrast is deliberate, in my opinion.

[Advance35]

Didn't Jon "All Knowing" Snow say that if the North falls it's over for Westeros as a whole.  Dany went North to save "her Kingdom."  I don't find Dany impressively altruistic.  And before anyone cries "Sansa is......" Ms. Stark  is in NO WAY altruistic herself.  I think she would go out of her way for the North and the Vale.  I don't think she cares about anyone else.

And again, if Jon's goal is unity, he's doing a piss poor job of it.  He returned home with a Queen (from a family the entire North hates) and told them, this is who you bow to now.  This is her Hand (from a Family that has spent the past few years murdering their loved ones) who also has notable authority.  Lord Glover is the first to say "Check please."  Was this reaction really to complicated for Jon to anticipate?  Maybe he shouldn't be running a Tavern, much less a region of a continent.  And everyone that leaves will only swell the ranks of the AOD, something Jon say's he doesn't want.  Why would he do something that drives people away?

Maybe he's suffering a concussion that won't heal?  Whatever it is, it equals more work for Sansa since I imagine she has to try harder, to get the vassals to stay.  To say nothing of the Vale.

The North being unified, before he came back and blew it to smithereens, is something he can thank Sansa for (not that he would).  And I have to imagine for the Houses left standing at present, The Last time the North had a Queen who wasn't of the North, a messy affair called the Red Wedding happened.  Jon might have thought of this but maybe not, all brawn no brain.

[Hana Chan]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To be fair, the writers have consistently made it clear that Jon is the sweet, humble soul who cares nothing for titles and power, while Sansa is the grasping, ambitious one who cares very much about titles and power. Sansa is throwing a temper tantrum over a perceived threat to her power while Jon is trying desperately to save everyone's lives. The contrast is deliberate, in my opinion.

To also be fair to both characters, it seems like a natural result of both their storylines. Jon was the bastard son who wanted to be seen as an equal to Robb, who was going to be Lord of Winterfell and joined the Nights Watch because it was a place where he could advance and have status. He made it to Lord Commander and then learned, painfully, that being in charge means making difficult and often unpopular decisions (even if you know its the right thing) and it cost him his life. He understands the responsibility of power as much as Sansa does, but also sees that being in charge means making hard calls and willing to put the well-being of those in his charge as priority over his own pride.

Sansa never wanted to be more than the pretty wife of a king and ended up suffering horribly due to her naivety. She, understandably, sees holding power as a way to protect herself but hasn't been put in a position (yet) where she really needs to make a decision that requires real self-sacrifice on her part. She's a capable administrator, but I have to wonder how she's going to really handle things when the ice zombie army come knocking and she sees what they are really up against. Sansa is trying to make judgements based on things that she understands and has experience with, which are entirely human enemies. She can wrap her mind around a power-hungry queen and a sadistic lord with a huge army. But she really has no clue about what's coming for them and she's not listening to Jon. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Hana Chan

[Minneapple]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah. If Dany really wanted to be petty, she would leave the Northerners to their fates and wait juuuuuust long enough for the AOTD to eradicate everyone in the North before putting her dragons and armies in play. How does that Northern independence taste now?

To be fair, the writers have consistently made it clear that Jon is the sweet, humble soul who cares nothing for titles and power, while Sansa is the grasping, ambitious one who cares very much about titles and power. Sansa is throwing a temper tantrum over a perceived threat to her power while Jon is trying desperately to save everyone's lives. The contrast is deliberate, in my opinion.

Last time Dany went against the Night King with her dragons, she lost and lost hard. And now the Night King has a dragon, and Dany's own dragons aren't eating well. 

Meanwhile, Sansa is so grasping and obsessed with power that she helped install Jon as King in the North. 

[Advance35]

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Last time Dany went against the Night King with her dragons, she lost and lost hard. And now the Night King has a dragon, and Dany's own dragons aren't eating well. 

And that's the cherry. IF any survive, how many will have died due to Dany's zombie Dragon?  A Dragon that was zombified because Mental Giant Jon Snow went on a wight hunt beyond the wall.  Even if she stops the AOD, if quite a number of the Northman die due to her undead dragon, can they really be blamed for wanting her to get the hell out of the North and to go be a bother someplace else?

Dany wanted Cersei to stop her war effort while she fought the army of the dead, leading to Jon going on a monster hunt, which led to Dany coming to save him.  This led the the Night King gaining a dragon, which led the AOD breaking down the wall and marching on all of Westeros.

Capital Decision making Jon and Dany.

And Sansa doesn't even know THAT part of the story.

I also remember Sansa warning Jon that Cersei will never stop until she destroys her enemies and him being "there are a thousand miles between us and Cersei."  Sansa continued to harp and harp but he was pure, only the NK matters.  Now, meaningless, harmless, so far away she is of no consequence, Cersei is sending an Assassin North.  SMH.  But feuds, grudges and power struggles don't matter.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Advance35

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Last time Dany went against the Night King with her dragons, she lost and lost hard. And now the Night King has a dragon, and Dany's own dragons aren't eating well. 

Meanwhile, Sansa is so grasping and obsessed with power that she helped install Jon as King in the North. 

Huh? Sansa didn't help install Jon. That was all on Lyanna Mormont. Sansa just sat there and smiled uncomfortably, sharing strange looks with Baelish, her literal pimp who later almost talked her into killing her sister.

For the record, nothing about Jon's election/coronation made sense regardless of how impressive Lady Mormont's public speaking is and I thought that whole storyline was nonsensical. Just as I thought the storyline of Dany, a seasoned war general, agreeing to a pax with Cersei when it would have made more strategic sense to press her advantage and get a quick victory was nonsensical. The entire storyline since season 4 has been nonsensical and it's borderline irritating that fans quibble about the Watsonian issues when the main problem is Doylistic.

[screamin]

43 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah. If Dany really wanted to be petty, she would leave the Northerners to their fates and wait juuuuuust long enough for the AOTD to eradicate everyone in the North before putting her dragons and armies in play. How does that Northern independence taste now?

Why sure, adding half a million Northern corpse troops to the Night King's army and probably as many panicked starving refugees fleeing ahead of him through Westeros couldn't possibly cause any disadvantage to Dany when she finally confronts the NK.

[GraceK]

28 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

And that's the cherry. IF any survive, how many will have died due to Dany's zombie Dragon?  A Dragon that was zombified because Mental Giant Jon Snow went on a wight hunt beyond the wall.  Even if she stops the AOD, if quite a number of the Northman die due to her undead dragon, can they really be blamed for her wanting to get the hell out of the North and to go be a bother someplace else?

What’s your point? This is just a rant based on your hate of a character that doesn’t even make sense. The army of the dead was coming anyway. The north was going to lose men regardless. That’s been the point of this series. Your blaming Dany and Jon, the two people who are doing the most to save the world from an apocalypse because your little favorite doesn’t have any superpowers 🙄 and can’t do shit without them. The North isn’t the most important part of this story you know. And in case you haven’t realized it, it’s not just the Northerners who will lose men. So will Dany. She is risking her own people who matter to her just as much. But apparently only the north are human beings . And if she does end up saving everyone from the AOTD and if as you say they tell her to fuck  off and be a bother somewhere else, Then who really are the villains here? Not Dany for sure. 

28 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

also remember Sansa warning Jon that Cersei will never stop until she destroys her enemies and him being "there are a thousand miles between us and Cersei."  Sansa continued to harp and harp but he was pure, only the NK matters.  Now, meaningless, harmless, so far away she is of no consequence, Cersei is sending an Assassin North.  SMH.  But feuds, grudges and power struggles don't matter

Again, what’s your point? What was the alternative? The assassin she sending btw is for Jaime and Tyrion. First of all, Did Sansa plan on invading Kings Landing with the wildlings and the North to overthrow Cersei? Cersei was telling them to bend the knee. Jon was always going to be focused on the AOTD. Either way, the NK was coming and they were gonna have to face him. And they were gonna be outnumbered and wiped out, and if Dany managed to overthrow Cersei before hand, Jon would still end up making an alliance with her for help, only there would be no Cersei waiting in the wings. So really, it was Tyrion, HOLDING DANY back from just conquering KL in the beginning that really fucked up everything. 

But yes, keep yelling about how Dany is worthless, her help isn’t needed, and it’s all her fault.  Nothing matters apparently but Northern Independence and armies and dragons and weapons are useless in this fight and all that matters is that Sansa feels appreciated and is made Queen. I would love to see Sansa command armies and start forming battle plans. 

🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

Edited April 17, 2019 by GraceK

[Stella]

41 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Last time Dany went against the Night King with her dragons, she lost and lost hard. And now the Night King has a dragon, and Dany's own dragons aren't eating well. 

And I'm thinking that Dany is now down to one dragon. She basically just gave one to Jon. If the Targ histories are accurate and dragon lore info states that once a dragon bonds with a rider it won't accept any other rider. 

Also it is interesting that in the Fire & Blood work that came out last year Queen Alysanne's dragon Silverwing wouldn't fly north of the Wall.

So Dany has one dragon. And it's not getting enough food. And it doesn't like the North. I won't be surprised if she books it on Drogon before the fighting is over, maybe sooner.

And all the bickering over all things Sansa won't have mattered.

[Advance35]

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But yes, keep yelling about how Dany is worthless, her help isn’t needed, and it’s all her fault.  Nothing matters apparently but Northern Independence and armies and dragons and weapons are useless in this fight and all that matters is that Sansa feels appreciated and is made Queen. I would love to see Sansa command armies and start forming battle plans. 

My post was focused on Jon.  You're rant (WAY to hot under the collar) is focused on Dany and the fact that I'm not posting Wuv about her.  I talk about Sansa's POV because that is the one that interest me and (looks at title ) Oh yeah, this is the Sansa thread.

Last I checked, I'm allowed to dislike characters and post about it. Unless Board rules have changed.

[Minneapple]

38 minutes ago, ursula said:

Huh? Sansa didn't help install Jon. That was all on Lyanna Mormont. Sansa just sat there and smiled uncomfortably, sharing strange looks with Baelish, her literal pimp who later almost talked her into killing her sister.

She convinced Jon that the Northerners would follow him because he has Ned Stark's blood, and gave her support to him. She is a Stark daughter and her word carries a lot of weight with the Northerners.

22 minutes ago, GraceK said:

But yes, keep yelling about how Dany is worthless, her help isn’t needed, and it’s all her fault.  Nothing matters apparently but Northern Independence and armies and dragons and weapons are useless in this fight and all that matters is that Sansa feels appreciated and is made Queen. I would love to see Sansa command armies and start forming battle plans. 

Nobody has said this.

I'm just glad that the Sansa vs. Dany argument has taken over the Sansa thread. As if the other four or so threads it's taken over weren't enough.

[Advance35]

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Nobody has said this.

I literally had to re-read what I posted.

In my media studies class someone gave a presentation on fandom's and how near some segments come to being fanatics.  Ugh.

Only 5 more episodes.  I'm so glad I'll finally know the fate of the Sansa Stark character, good, bad or somewhere in between.

She, Margaery, Olenna, Dolores Edd, Oberyn and Tyrion (Seasons 1-4) have been my favorite characters.

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I'm just glad that the Sansa vs. Dany argument has taken over the Sansa thread. As if the other four or so threads it's taken over weren't enough.

Apparently you can’t even discuss Sansa in her own thread without someone feeling the need to denigrate or bring down Daenerys. I was responding to a specific point made. But @Minneapple point taken! I will restrain from further Sansa vs Dany statements here. Your right and I apologize.

11 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

You're rant (WAY to hot under the collar) is focused on Dany and the fact that I'm not posting Wuv about her.  I talk about Sansa's POV because that is the one that interest me and (looks at title ) Oh yeah, this is the Sansa thread.

Your the one who brought her up in the Sansa thread , and you don’t need to post “ wuv” about her, but if your gonna rant in every thread about how she sucks in some way, even in another character thread, someone is bound to rebuttal.

Edited April 17, 2019 by GraceK

[Hana Chan]

27 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

She convinced Jon that the Northerners would follow him because he has Ned Stark's blood, and gave her support to him. She is a Stark daughter and her word carries a lot of weight with the Northerners.

Her bloodline mattered so much that they managed to secure almost no support from the Northern houses in order to retake Winterfell from the Boltons. Jon went into battle with a fraction of the troops that he needed (and a lot of them being Wildings who were loyal to Jon and had no interest in Sansa's plight). Jon was willing to put his life on the line and she sat back without telling him that she had put out word to the Vale and possibly more men were on the way. And then had to audacity to claim to Arya that she was responsible for saving the battle. Say what you will about Sansa, but the woman doesn't have a low opinion of herself.

Sansa may have picked up a few things along the way and has hardened a great deal, but she is still, in a lot of ways, the self-serving child that she was when we were first introduced to her. She isn't seeking the power that comes with being the head of house in Winterfell for the good of the Northern people. She's doing it because she believes that being in power means protection for her. That's she's important and will have people willing to fight and defend her. And I'm sorry, but comparing that with Jon who the instant they proclaimed him KITN was looking at using that authority to get everyone ready for the big war with the ice zombie army, it's not a surprise that some will not see Sansa in a favorable light. Instead of just complaining about what Jon is doing, she's ignoring why he's doing it. And that's a result of her upbringing and the fact that she's one of those (like Dany) who's going to need to see what they're up against for herself before she starts to believe.

[ursula]

52 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

She convinced Jon that the Northerners would follow him because he has Ned Stark's blood, and gave her support to him. She is a Stark daughter and her word carries a lot of weight with the Northerners.

That's... not what happened. All the Lords laughed then out of their castles when they played the Stark card. It took Davos acting as Jon's hype man - based on his resume as Lord Commander to turn Mormont around. Sansa being Ned Stark's daughter didn't factor into the decision making at all. 

The entire North Remembers plot of the books was axed.

[merrick715]

17 hours ago, ursula said:

That's... not what happened. All the Lords laughed then out of their castles when they played the Stark card. It took Davos acting as Jon's hype man - based on his resume as Lord Commander to turn Mormont around. Sansa being Ned Stark's daughter didn't factor into the decision making at all. 

 The entire North Remembers plot of the books was axed.

You are absolutely right. Davos managed to convince Lyanna Mormont to join them, which lead to a ripple effect of other Northern Houses joining them. Jon convinced the Free Folk to join them, and yet their army still didn't have the numbers to defeat House Bolton and their allies. It wasn't until the army of the Vale answered Sansa's call that they won.

Yes, Petyr managed to convince the Vale lords to help, but he only could have done that by using Sansa's bloodline. I guess being the cousin of Robert Arryn and niece of Lysa has its perks after all.  If you think about it, Sansa's much-maligned Tullyness helped take back Winterfell and returned the North to its "rightful" rulers, House Stark.

Edited April 18, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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You are absolutely right. Davos managed to convince Lyanna Mormont to join them, which lead to a ripple effect of other Northern Houses joining them. Jon convinced the Free Folk to join them, and yet their army still didn't have the numbers to defeat House Bolton and their allies. It wasn't until the army of the Vale answered Sansa's call that they won.

*Raises glass in agreement*

I really wish we had more detail on Sansa's current relationship with the Vale is.   We know they are currently in Winterfell, in support of Sansa, they are adverse to the rest of the power structure in place.  But did Sansa make a full confession to get Lord Royce to stand down during Littlefinger's execution?

Lord Royce and Sansa are frequently shown chatting.  I can't see Sansa being susceptible to a father figure.  The show is constrained by time but in the book Lord Royce and The Vale characters are really growing in prominence.   And the atmosphere the writer has set up is simmering with scheming and intrigue on par with Kings Landing at it's height.

OT: The actor really does crack me up.  Did you see his face during Lyanna going in on Jon, in the Great Hall?  And even more so, when Tyrion was giving his speech. LOL.  He's awesome.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Advance35

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

OT: The actor really does crack me up.  Did you see his face during Lyanna going in on Jon, in the Great Hall?  And even more so, when Tyrion was giving his speech. LOL.  He's awesome.

He always looks so done with everyone. The face he made, in season five, when SweetRobin was learning to spar is hilarious. I don't think Lord Royce would try to work the father figure angle with Sansa. I think, he would think, that would be beneath him, but he definitely isn't in Winterfell solely out of the goodness in his heart. I wonder if he isn't trying to get Sansa to marry Robin. 

The show has no problem merging book characters or condensing important plot points if it serves their needs. so why not have Harry the Heir. as one of Lord Royces younger sons. If Sansa's ultimate book fate is to marry that would be the perfect way to do it. Trying to arrange an advantageous marriage would explain why he is still there, and why almost every time we see him, he is with Sansa.  

Edited April 18, 2019 by merrick715

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

OT: The actor really does crack me up.  Did you see his face during Lyanna going in on Jon, in the Great Hall?  And even more so, when Tyrion was giving his speech. LOL.  He's awesome.

Rupert Vansittart is great, particularly when it comes to playing pompous types. I will always remember him as George the boor from Four Weddings and a Funeral:

George: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I am as a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

Gareth: Good point.

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

He always looks so done with everyone. The face he made, in season five, when SweetRobin was learning to spar is hilarious. I don't think Lord Royce would try to work the father figure angle with Sansa. I think, he would think, that would be beneath him, but he definitely isn't in Winterfell solely out of the goodness in his heart. I wonder if he isn't trying to get Sansa to marry Robin. 

The show has no problem merging book characters or condensing important plot points if it serves their needs. so why not have Harry the Heir. as one of Lord Royces younger sons. If Sansa's ultimate book fate is to marry that would be the perfect way to do it. Trying to arrange an advantageous marriage would explain why he is still there, and why almost every time we see him, he is with Sansa.  

It's possible, for sure. I do think that Book Sansa and TV Sansa will have the same endgame, and that includes any possible marriage. I don't know why TV Sansa would possibly be interested in marriage, but if she is a political player par excellence, it would make a lot of sense to marry someone with a great title but who was gullible and stupid and could be easily manipulated. Olenna married someone weak. Petyr did the same with Lysa. A lot to be said for it, as a short-term strategy for power and peace of mind.

That said, marrying a gullible idiot is poor as a long-term strategy, because if you have a son with your husband who also turns out to be equally gullible and stupid and your husband dies, your gullible and stupid son will now be the head of the family and you'll be beholden to him. This was Olenna Tyrell's downfall. For all her plotting and scheming, the decisions rested with Mace, and not surprisingly, they were not great decisions.

...We also saw Cat and Cersei trapped after the deaths of their husbands by being beholden to their stupid sons fathered by stupid men, although in Cat's case she didn't choose Ned, and in Cersei's case she didn't choose Jaime because he was stupid. So as a long-term political strategy, marrying a dumb man is not a smart move.

Leaving political strategy out of it, I do think both Book Sansa and TV Sansa wouldn't be happy with anyone they couldn't respect intellectually (...which is why TV Jon/Sansa as a ship mystifies me, because she clearly thinks he's a dolt). However, she might sacrifice her happiness for the sake of a political match that would bring her more security, although I don't really see why she would marry Robin when she's already Lady of Winterfell.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

Quote

He always looks so done with everyone. The face he made, in season five, when SweetRobin was learning to spar is hilarious. I don't think Lord Royce would try to work the father figure angle with Sansa. I think, he would think, that would be beneath him, but he definitely isn't in Winterfell solely out of the goodness in his heart. I wonder if he isn't trying to get Sansa to marry Robin. 

What's interesting is, now that Robin's Smother Mother is gone we are actually beginning to see he's not a complete imbecile.  Or maybe he's just displaying the paranoia instilled in him by Lyssa.  He does not trust Harry the Heir.   And when Sansa is dancing with Harry she notices Lord Robin staring at them.  The WOW sample chapter almost made me feel bad for the kid, he lost his Mom (however ghastly) and now depends on Sansa to take care of him (a girl who is barely able to take care of herself).

So far, in the books, Lord Royce is the only member of the Lords Declarant, LF hasn't been able to corrupt or scheme into submission.  I'll trust the show runners to know what their doing (and I'll always be grateful they tell us how all this ends, since I doubt GRRM will) but man do I wish the season had more than 6 episodes.

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Leaving political strategy out of it, I do think both Book Sansa and TV Sansa wouldn't be happy with anyone they couldn't respect intellectually (...which is why TV Jon/Sansa as a ship mystifies me, because she clearly thinks he's a dolt). However, she might sacrifice her happiness for the sake of a political match that would bring her more security, although I don't really see why she would marry Robin when she's already Lady of Winterfell.

 I think kindness is something she would be looking for in a future husband, and how he strengths or maintains her power. I don't think intelligence or, lack thereof would play that big of a role, in her selection process. I think Sansa would do everything possible to not put herself in a position, where marrying someone like Ramsay is an option. FYI, I'm not a big fan of Jon/Sansa.

I mentioned Sansa marrying Robin, just in case Bran stops being the three-eyed-raven and becomes the Lord of Winterfell. after the war. I think book Sansa is going to end up saving Robin, and he'll end up being the ruler of the Vale, and not Harry the Heir. Showverse there has to be a reason why Lord Royce is still there, and what better reason for him to still be there than him trying to arrange a marriage with Sansa to one of his younger sons. I'm trying to figure out how the show will what is going to happen to the important characters in the Vale since the show took a lot of liberties with the Vale storyline in the books.

[merrick715]

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

The WOW sample chapter almost made me feel bad for the kid, he lost his Mom (however ghastly) and now depends on Sansa to take care of him (a girl who is barely able to take care of herself).

I completely feel for Robin on both the show and in the books. I feel like book Petyr's ending will have something to do with book Sansa saving Robin from him,

[screamin]

4 hours ago, merrick715 said:

The show has no problem merging book characters or condensing important plot points if it serves their needs. so why not have Harry the Heir. as one of Lord Royces younger sons. If Sansa's ultimate book fate is to marry that would be the perfect way to do it. Trying to arrange an advantageous marriage would explain why he is still there, and why almost every time we see him, he is with Sansa.  

I think there's no time to introduce a 'Harry the Heir' character at this late date and have us care whether or not Sansa marries him, because there's no time for us to get to know a new character enough to see the pros and cons of such a match. We already know Sweetrobin as a character and therefore the obvious pros and cons of Sansa marrying him (Pros: the Vale has food and an easily defensible territory surrounded by mountains. Con: it's Sweetrobin; though I do agree that Book Sweetrobin has some good points that Show SR hasn't shown much of). I think what Royce is after is to land Sansa as a marriage prospect for SR to augment the Vale's power and therefore his own standing as SR's right-hand man. (He's probably seen enough of both SR and Sansa to know that SR needs someone like that at his side to be any kind of effective ruler.)

Edited April 18, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

I think kindness is something she would be looking for in a future husband

Yeah, kindness doesn't mean much and in fact never meant much to Book Sansa or TV Sansa in the love interest department. Going to the books, she wanted Joffrey, even after getting firsthand knowledge of what an asshole he was. She wanted Loras because he was gorgeous, not because he was brimming with kindness. She fantasizes about the Hound, who is not a kind person, and thinks fondly about the (fake) memory of his "cruel mouth" kissing hers. (It's not his kindness that she's attracted to, let's put it that way.) Even when Willas was hyped to Sansa as a marital prospect, she was far more interested in visions of a luxurious life at Highgarden than she was in reassurances about Willas' gentle heart. And of course the one guy whose kindness she has acknowledged a few times in the books and show is someone she has absolutely no interest in as a husband. So kindness really doesn't matter for Sansa all that much.

That's another reason why I find TV Jon/Sansa shipping on the basis of Jon's kindness to Sansa ridiculous, because the idea that Sansa would see Jon's kindness as a big selling point in the romance department (assuming she would ever see him that way) is ridiculous. She really doesn't care about that. She has never cared about that.

If TV Sansa really cared about kindness, she would make a beeline for Pod. He pretty much radiates wholesome sweetness and decency, he's available, and she probably heard the rumours in KL about his prowess in the bedroom (judging from the ladies giggling as he walked by in 3x10). And yet in the two seasons plus one episode we have seen her in scenes with Pod, she hasn't addressed a single fucking word to him! Not one word. Kindness really doesn't do it for her.

I grant you that TV/Book Sansa would probably be looking for someone who's not a sadistic sociopath if she decides to look for anyone at all, but even in the grimdark world of GOT, that's an extremely low bar to clear.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Eyes High

[VCRTracking]

I love how much like Cersei, Sansa sounded when she asked "What do dragons eat, anyway?" Nice and subtle work by Sophie there.

[Advance35]

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I completely feel for Robin on both the show and in the books. I feel like book Petyr's ending will have something to do with book Sansa saving Robin from him,

He didn't click for me until TWOW sample chapter.  He's pretty alone.  Sitting in a place of honor, waiting for someone to kill him.

Quote

I think what Royce is after is to land Sansa as a marriage prospect for SR to augment the Vale's power and therefore his own standing as SR's right-hand man. (He's probably seen enough of both SR and Sansa to know that SR needs someone like that at his side to be any kind of effective ruler.)

I use to think Sansa's destiny was The Vale, if she lived through everything (on the shipping front I had always hoped for Willas or maybe Garlan Tyrell).  But since the show killed off Rickon, I now don't think he is the future of Winterfell (10-1 GRRM kills him too) which throws the whole thing up in the air for me, again.

I do wonder if we may be giving the show too much credit.  I mean, they are pressed for screentime and now the Sci-Fi aspects of the story are taking center stage.  Maybe a cigar is just a cigar?

If she ever marries again, I don't think it will be for "love."  I really do think Littlefinger was her tragic love story.  In her younger years she wanted a Prince that would save her and slay monsters for her.  After her wish went through a "be careful what you wish for" sprinkler she wound up the obsession of a man who killed or arranged or set dominos in motion that led to the murder of her Parents, sibling/s and enemies (Joffrey, Lyssa, etc) alike. 

I remember it came out he approached Cersei for Sansa's hand in Book 1 and when she turned him down, LF set in motion the destruction of House Lannister.   He actually plunged an entire continent into war just to get to her.  I liked the moment in Season 7 when Sansa was on the balcony after having Arya kill LF and she said "He really did love me, in his own way." or something equivalent.

If she lives through the Otherpocalyps I could see her with an open-end, in terms of whom she ends up with.  God knows there is enough fanfiction (Sandor/Sansa, Jon/Sansa, Willas/Sansa, Tyrion/Sansa, Oberyn/Sansa, Petyr/Sansa, Jaimie/Sansa, Aegon/Sansa, it's unbelievable) where fans can choose their own ending.

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I love how much like Cersei, Sansa sounded when she asked "What do dragons eat, anyway?" Nice and subtle work by Sophie there.

Credit where it's due, she did do a good job with her dark cloud routine this episode.  Sansa "Sharp Togue" Stark.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Advance35

[dirtypop90]

^^ During the cast interview before the premiere, Sophie mentioned how she really loved working with Lena and how much she learned from her.  She's really benefited from being paired with such strong actors at a young age--Lena of course but also the young actors who played Joffrey and Ramsey, peter dinklage, actress who played Lysa Arryan I thought was really good as well.  Now, she really is a force in her scenes at winterfell, imo.

Edited April 18, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

He didn't click for me until TWOW sample chapter.  He's pretty alone.  Sitting in a place of honor, waiting for someone to kill him.

I use to think Sansa's destiny was The Vale, if she lived through everything (on the shipping front I had always hoped for Willas or maybe Garlan Tyrell).  But since the show killed off Rickon, I now don't think he is the future of Winterfell (10-1 GRRM kills him too) which throws the whole thing up in the air for me, again.

I used to think so, too, but if you assume that Bran, Arya and Sansa are all going through parallel "training arcs" in the cave, Braavos, and the Vale (respectively), then Sansa is no more destined for the Vale than Bran is destined for a cave or Arya is destined for Braavos. I never thought Sansa would end up with Winterfell going off the books, but I have trouble seeing her doing anything else in the show in the end assuming she survives.

Quote

God knows there is enough fanfiction (Sandor/Sansa, Jon/Sansa, Willas/Sansa, Tyrion/Sansa, Oberyn/Sansa, Petyr/Sansa, Jaimie/Sansa, Aegon/Sansa, it's unbelievable) where fans can choose their own ending.

I expect most (all?) of these guys will be dead before the end of the story. It'll be wall to wall fix-it fics and AUs, I guess.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

He didn't click for me until TWOW sample chapter.  He's pretty alone.  Sitting in a place of honor, waiting for someone to kill him.

The first time I ever liked poor SR is when Sansa talks him into walking with her over the narrow mountain path by telling him to be brave by emulating his favorite hero of the tales and helping her to be brave as well - and he does it. It's the first glimmer of hope that SR actually has a chance of surpassing himself and becoming a better person.

Which probably means he'll die horribly, alas.

[Nanrad]

On 4/17/2019 at 11:57 AM, Advance35 said:

And that's the cherry. IF any survive, how many will have died due to Dany's zombie Dragon?  A Dragon that was zombified because Mental Giant Jon Snow went on a wight hunt beyond the wall.  Even if she stops the AOD, if quite a number of the Northman die due to her undead dragon, can they really be blamed for wanting her to get the hell out of the North and to go be a bother someplace else?

Dany wanted Cersei to stop her war effort while she fought the army of the dead, leading to Jon going on a monster hunt, which led to Dany coming to save him.  This led the the Night King gaining a dragon, which led the AOD breaking down the wall and marching on all of Westeros.

Capital Decision making Jon and Dany.

And Sansa doesn't even know THAT part of the story.

I also remember Sansa warning Jon that Cersei will never stop until she destroys her enemies and him being "there are a thousand miles between us and Cersei."  Sansa continued to harp and harp but he was pure, only the NK matters.  Now, meaningless, harmless, so far away she is of no consequence, Cersei is sending an Assassin North.  SMH.  But feuds, grudges and power struggles don't matter.

And how many would have died without her presence? I'm honestly not understanding the issue here. They have a stronger chance with Dany's dragons than without--actually they stand no chance without it (and the resources that comes with Dany). We call Jon a mental giant, but he's the only one who understands the seriousness of what's going on. He has the unfortunate responsibility of trying to convince everyone that a very real and imminent danger is on the way, but he gets insulted for being imperfect. After the war is over, none of them are goin to be like, "Only some Northern men died, but not all--please go away Dany--you've caused more trouble than you've helped."

Seriously, what is the alternative?

Riddle me this: how does politicking on Sansa's end have ANYTHING to do with what Cersei does on her end? Sansa literally only cares about the North and Northern politics. But, still, none of this stuff matters if the NK kills them all. Like, seriously. If he wins, how does Cersei killing her brothers mean anything in the grand scheme. It's probably a preferable death compared to being killed by the AOTD. So, this doesn't prove that Sansa is right about politics mattering because she has no role of significance in southern politics or what Cersei has in mind nor does she want to.

Cersei caring about politics is seen as foolish and shortsighted. Cersei is depending on the NK taking them out and his army being whittled down so she can finish him off. But, she doesn't understand that once he kills whatever army in his way, they become apart of his army.

So, trying to legitimize why caring about politics using Cersei further shows how politics aren't important here and now. It needs to be put aside.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Nanrad

[Advance35]

Quote

Cersei caring about politics is seen as foolish and shortsighted. Cersei is depending on the NK taking them out and his army being whittled down so she can finish him off. But, she doesn't understand that once he kills whatever army in his way, they become apart of his army.

So, trying to legitimize why caring about politics using Cersei further shows how politics aren't important here and now. It needs to be put aside.

Is Cersei going to put politics aside? Cersei who has 20,000 men ready to march on her word and assassin's she's willing and able to send to Winterfell as guided missiles.  If it's not AOD Jon isn't giving it much thought or attention and that's a mistake.

Cersei, Food, these are both matters that could/and likely will, impact the battle between the living and the dead.  But Jon has tunnel vision and that is something someone may come to rue, whomever is on the receiving end of that crossbow.

Quote

The first time I ever liked poor SR is when Sansa talks him into walking with her over the narrow mountain path by telling him to be brave by emulating his favorite hero of the tales and helping her to be brave as well - and he does it. It's the first glimmer of hope that SR actually has a chance of surpassing himself and becoming a better person.

Which probably means he'll die horribly, alas.

I'm not ready to close the book on him yet and I don't know why.  Maybe because I thought Rickon was sure to live and now he's dead.   I use to be certain Robin would die, maybe the reverse is true.

[arty]

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I liked the moment in Season 7 when Sansa was on the balcony after having Arya kill LF and she said "He really did love me, in his own way." or something equivalent.

That struck me as such a sad line. Sansa's life has been so miserable for so long that she gives credence to the dark and twisty mess that Littlefinger disguises as love. It reminded me of the scene in which Ned tells Catelyn that Littlefinger still loves her, and she dismisses it with a careless, "does he." Catelyn has known real love, love in its best forms, been surrounded by it her whole life. Consequently, she has no use for whatever Petyr has to offer. That's how I read both scenes, anyway.

[Maximum Taco]

16 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Cersei caring about politics is seen as foolish and shortsighted. Cersei is depending on the NK taking them out and his army being whittled down so she can finish him off. But, she doesn't understand that once he kills whatever army in his way, they become apart of his army.

So, trying to legitimize why caring about politics using Cersei further shows how politics aren't important here and now. It needs to be put aside.

Is it? I always saw Cersei's plan as the most prudent one for her given her circumstances. 

I don't think she's hoping on the NK wiping out Dany, she is aware that if the dead march on King's Landing she's boned. She's hoping for Dany to defeat the NK, but to take heavy losses. Cause she can defeat a living army that has just been crippled. 

The thing is she would rather die then cede power. So allying with Dany was never an option. Best case scenario in that situation is the allied army defeats the AOTD, but if losses are roughly equal between the Targaryens and Lannisters then Dany would still have the advantage in the war to come. 

Don't get me wrong, Cersei is likely boned either way. But the path she's chosen has a slim margin for victory, where as any other path is surely defeat. 

I think Sansa (and possibly Jaime) is really the only one who understands Cersei's motivations at this point. Tyrion is assuming she cares way too much for her (future) children, when really power is her highest priority. She'd rather live in a world where she was Queen and her children dead, then one in which she is raising her children and not the Queen. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[GodsBeloved]

26 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I don't think she's hoping on the NK wiping out Dany, she is aware that if the dead march on King's Landing she's boned. She's hoping for Dany to defeat the NK, but to take heavy losses. Cause she can defeat a living army that has just been crippled. 

Plus Cersei has a weapon for the dragons. They were able to wound one so it's more than reasonable that they can kill them.

[Advance35]

The character beats for Sansa continue to surprise me.

Her meeting with Dany was interesting for a few reasons.  It appeared like Sansa was unprompted and genuinely apologetic over HOW she greeted Dany upon her arrival.   I didn't expect that.   Dany is in direct opposition to what Sansa wants for the Northern Kingdom so her admitting that Day is entitled to her gratitude surprised me, it was a nice moment.   But, nothing has changed.   While Dany was charming, Sansa is a girl who spent time with The Tyrells,  At the end of the day, business is business.

I do think seeing Sansa with Theon may have been a good thing.  Up to that point, Sansa never let Dany see anything other than cold defiance or haughty disdain.  She seemed a little surprised at Sansa's conduct, but not in a bad way.  It was all very layered.

Her reunion with Theon was surprisingly moving to me.  I question whether Sansa will ever truly let herself connect with anyone again, on any level but there is no denying that she feels a connection with Theon.  I can imagine Ramsay Bolton is a unique horror to live through.  But seeing Sansa moved by emotion was honestly jarring for me.   She chose to spend what could be her last night alive, eating with Theon and there was a softness to her face that Sansa doesn't allow herself to show anymore,  It was quiet, subtle and poignant.

[dirtypop90]

I wasn’t really surprised by her and Theon. I think her reunion with Theon was very similar to her reunion with Jon; they too had a soup scene. I think Theon coming back to Winterfell was like another brother coming home. She was probably closer to him than Jon growing up now that I think about it. It’s weird because Theon betrayed them but he’s still family. 

Bran is no longer himself. Jon was in the crypts and Arya was having sex. Theon was the only “family” left for her to eat dinner with.

[Brn2bwild]

On 4/22/2019 at 7:13 AM, Advance35 said:

The character beats for Sansa continue to surprise me.

Her meeting with Dany was interesting for a few reasons.  It appeared like Sansa was unprompted and genuinely apologetic over HOW she greeted Dany upon her arrival.   I didn't expect that.   Dany is in direct opposition to what Sansa wants for the Northern Kingdom so her admitting that Day is entitled to her gratitude surprised me, it was a nice moment.   But, nothing has changed.   While Dany was charming, Sansa is a girl who spent time with The Tyrells,  At the end of the day, business is business.

That makes me wish that Margaery hadn't been killed, as it would have been interesting to see how she and Dany dealt with each other.

It's only been two episodes and anything can happen, blah, blah, but I feel like Sansa is getting a Queen in the North edit.  I don't think it's an accident, or just a lesson for Dany, that her leadership and the respect she's earned is emphasized over and over.  I think in the end, Dany (and Jon?) will let the North be independent.

[merrick715]

As a Sansa "stan" I really enjoyed this episode, I think Brienne's defense of Jamie was calculated to appeal to Sansa. That's why she starts off with, Jamie saving her from being raped, and as punishment, he lost his hand. It moved Sansa enough to get her to change her whole demeanor towards Jamie. How do people interpret Sansa's look after hearing Bran telling Jamie: "the things we do for love"?

There are three tiny Sansa moments I love. After Jamie's "trial" ends, Dany is the first to rise, and the other lords follow suit, but it isn't until Sansa walks out of the meeting, do the other lords begin to move around. Then, there is Sansa telling Lord Royce to keep the gates open as long as they can, because there are still people coming in from the countryside. Finally, there is Sansa and Theon sharing their last meal in the courtyard, amongst all the smallfolk. 

[RoberTee]

On 4/18/2019 at 5:49 PM, VCRTracking said:

I love how much like Cersei, Sansa sounded when she asked "What do dragons eat, anyway?" Nice and subtle work by Sophie there.

True! There's a lot of small moments where you can see Sansa actually learned a lot from Cersei (and/or Sophie learned a lot from Lena). 

[Advance35]

Quote

There are three tiny Sansa moments I love. After Jamie's "trial" ends, Dany is the first to rise, and the other lords follow suit, but it isn't until Sansa walks out of the meeting, do the other lords begin to move around.

What got me was Dany was the first to stand but when Sansa immediately follows, she proceeds to turn and leave the hall.  Then we see Dany turned to her in surprise, you can see it.  I believe the highest authority is usually the first to leave.  It was awesome.

In terms of what she's learned from Cersei, I think for Sansa it's just a matter of who is left standing.  She watched first hand as Margaery (and The Tyrells) worked to gain control of the Court in Kings Landing and in some ways they did. BUT Sansa also knows who won in that feud and I think that could be one of the things that has pushed her towards a less outwardly gentile demeanor.

As vexing as it can be, to see Sansa has zero interest in romance is a little sad.  She seems to associate love with what went on with The Lannisters, Ramsay and in it's least lethal form, the social climbing and manipulation of the Tyrells.

Quote

 I think in the end, Dany (and Jon?) will let the North be independent.

In all honesty, this is the aspect of the show I am most interested in this season.

[merrick715]

19 hours ago, RoberTee said:

True! There's a lot of small moments where you can see Sansa actually learned a lot from Cersei (and/or Sophie learned a lot from Lena). 

Sophie was definitely, channeling her inner Lena, in the way she pronounced eat. She really stressed that t sound, and that's an acting choice I can't remember Sophie making before.

I don't get why Sansa admitting that she learned a lot from Cersei is used by some, as some sort of proof, of Sansa's inherent evilness that is just waiting to break out.  Perhaps, Sansa asks herself "What Would Cersei Do?" and then does the exact opposite of that.  

I can't see Cersei sitting amongst the common folk, and eating, what could be her very last meal. Yet, that is what Sansa did with Theon. Has Cersei ever cared about protecting the smallfolk? No.  Sansa did when she told Lord Royce to keep the gates open as long as he can because there are still people coming from the countryside. Sansa's tone and snarkiness are Cersei-esque, but her actions don't.

[Stella]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I don't get why Sansa admitting that she learned a lot from Cersei is used by some, as some sort of proof, of Sansa's inherent evilness that is just waiting to break out.

Sansa is the most charged character in the story and it truly borders on the ridiculous IMO. She is continually misinterpreted and misunderstood as a character to the point that practically every discussion eventually includes a litany of her "faults". And I'm not saying she has never made a mistake or is perfect by any stretch. 

But it's almost like there is some fear about this character's story getting in the way of some other (apparently more preferred) character(s). And some general misunderstanding of GRRM's story in general I think.