Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Hana Chan]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

And if Sansa and Tyrion agree that their marriage was a sham then she would be an unmarried lady of Winterfell, key to the north again. It's both a vulnerable position even as its a powerful one.

This has always been one of the downsides for historical women of royal houses. Even if they are in the primary leadership position, the demands for them to marry and bear heirs is very fierce. Not even Elizabeth was immune from that demand were quite of few queens that had to waste a lot of time fending off the political ambitions of their consorts (Like Isabella of France). 

Sansa taking over as Queen in the North (should she survive) could be the logical conclusion for her story. The Norther Lords seem more willing to follow her than anyone else (even Jon) and she has proven to be a capable administrator. But she is not a warrior and will need someone to handle the martial side of things. Elizabeth gets named here as a template for Sansa's leadership, but Elizabeth needed a large number of military leaders loyal to her to protect England. I can't see Sansa able to do that on her own. An unmarried women in her position would be a very tempting target for someone ruthless enough and powerful enough to take a chance. 

There is also a big question as to what will happen to House Stark after her. Given her past, I could understand why she would be reluctant to marry again, but that leave her without a legitimate heir. She would need one of her siblings to have a child that she could name as heir but even that is problematic. Jon is already a legitimate Targaryen so any of his children will be Targaryen. If Arya decides to marry and have children, her children will belong to whatever house her husband is with (my bets are on Baratheon). That leaves Bran as the only other option and he strikes me as less likely to father a child than Sweet Robin. 

If Sansa dies without an heir, that's it for House Stark and that leaves a big power vacuum in the North. She may find out, in the end, that being Queen isn't going to be the protection that she might hope it would be. 

[GraceK]

Oh please Sansa is not Elizabeth the 1. 🙄 that’s laughable.

Elizabeth was raised knowing she was royalty. Her legitimacy may have been questioned constantly and legally changed depending on her fathers whim, but she was born a princess and she knew her destiny regardless of her bastard status. She was given the best education, the best tutors, she spoke and read several languages, she was considered highly educated and brilliant. Depending on whether you like her or hate her, she was either the mastermind of numerous plots to overthrow her trueborn sister Mary and managed to never be found guilty, or she was completely innocent and a scapegoat. Either way, she was a queen who managed to leverage her virginity  and power to forge alliances and hold off men for decades while keeping ultimate power to herself. She beheaded her real rival, Mary of Scots and managed to do it while maintaining a false “ cover “ of regret and outrage so she didn’t lose popularity. She also maintained a relationship with James of Scotland , Mary’s Son and named him as  heir before she died, and made sure he was a Protestant so her legacy was protected. She was shrewd, clever, brave, manipulative and a survivor who grew up under the  shadow of a insane despotic father who murdered  her mother .  Comparing her to Sansa Stark is an extreme injustice to her and I’m sick of hearing it. Elizabeth led a battle cry for her soldiers and inspired people, Elizabeth didn’t care who you worshipped and tried to stay out of people hearts. Who does that sound  like?  Not Sansa. Only die hard Sansa Stan’s  who are determined to see her as the main character and the center of everything make this comparison. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by GraceK

[screamin]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Comparing her to Sansa Stark is an extreme injustice to her and I’m sick of hearing it. Elizabeth led a battle cry for her soldiers and inspired people, Elizabeth didn’t care who you worshipped and tried to stay out of people hearts. Who does that sound  like?  Not Sansa. Only die hard Sansa Stan’s  who are determined to see her as the main character and the center of everything make this comparison. 

Well, that's your opinion. I originally brought her up because Sansa dressing in armor was called a 'silly costume.' I pointed out that Elizabeth I dressed in armor not intended to be functional for a very not-silly purpose. That was the only reason I mentioned her. (BTW, attendance at Anglican church was required and Catholic mass punishable by death during her reign, so I don't think it's quite accurate to say she 'didn't care who you worshipped.' As for saying she 'tried to stay out of people's hearts', why do you say that?)

Since you bring up other comparisons, though -

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Elizabeth was raised knowing she was royalty. Her legitimacy may have been questioned constantly and legally changed depending on her fathers whim, but she was born a princess and she knew her destiny regardless of her bastard status. She was given the best education, the best tutors, she spoke and read several languages, she was considered highly educated and brilliant. 

Elizabeth's 'destiny' as queen was not something that she grew up knowing, since she was a long shot, behind her brother, then her sister, then her sister's possible children from her marriage to the King of Spain; indeed, she spent much of that time teetering on the edge of disgrace and sometimes even execution. I'd say there are certainly some paralels to Sansa's coming of age.

As for her wonderful education making her incomparably superior...are you saying the Starks educated their children in an inferior manner to any people of their rank, destined rulers of the North and descendants of kings? AFAICT, they got as good an education as anyone of their own or higher rank in Westeros. 

As for all Elizabeth's other achievements that you cite to prove her superiority...ALL of them, from surviving the reign of her sister Bloody Mary onward, happened when she was already an adult, significantly older than Sansa is now. Her sister Mary did not become queen till Elizabeth was already twenty years old. Deriding Sansa because she hasn't equalled Elizabeth's lifetime of achievement when Sansa is only sixteen (more or less) and has spent her teenhood surviving in royal vipers' nests strikes me as singularly unfair.

To me it seems that Sansa's survival in those courts is a fair parallel to Elizabeth's education in survival at the same age...and I don't think only a deluded stan would think so.

[merrick715]

15 hours ago, GraceK said:

Not Sansa. Only die hard Sansa Stan’s  who are determined to see her as the main character and the center of everything make this comparison. 

What is wrong with mentioning Elizabeth in regards to Sansa?  Queen Elizabeth's intelligence and political skills weren't diminished simply because of her need for physical protection.  Somehow Sansa needing physical protectors diminishes her intelligence and strength. Sansa stan's, as you call them, aren't the only stans in this fandom who want their fav to have everything. Why single out Sansa stans, when Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, and Arya stans do the same thing?  Do I think Sansa is going to end up being the Queen of Westeros? No. I do think she'll end up in a position of power at the end.

[Advance35]

Quote

And on a shallow note, Urban Decay's Game of Thrones make up line has the three queens in their lipstick shades, Cersei, Dany, and Sansa. :)

Well that's no surprise. Being onne of the most talked about and analyzed characters in the whole franchise (w/o the benefit of Dragons or Top Tier writing, well earned by Lena though it is) has made the Sansa character a lightening rod for the GoT Marketing Department.

A grounded character w/o magic or super human abilities, who's story isn't foretold or by the numbers, HBO (and others) very much know what they are doing.   

As for Sansa's future, marriage (if it's something she pursues) will always be a mean's to an end.  I can't see her acquiescing w/o a clear and unbalanced advantage towards herself.   Whether that's gold to rebuild Winterfell and the North by extension, I couldn't say.  It will also depend on how things go for what's left of House Tully/House Arryn.   If something happens to Edmure and Robyn, Sansa is once again the hottest thing on the marriage market.

Granted the show had to simplify a lot of the story and again, we are at the point where it's "Look at the magic and dragons" nonsense, but the bloodlines and inheritance Sansa could come into, depending on how things go, could make her one of the most prominent figures in what's left of Westeros.

I just miss her getting to interact with real characters like Margaery, Littlefinger, Olenna, Cersei and others.  The writers claim we will see character interaction and dynamics but the most dynamic characters are gone, or a long way from Winterfell.  The majority of what's left is cookie cutter tropes.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Sansa is once again the hottest thing on the marriage market.

Friki said;   Everyone wants Sansa Stark.

Let's see : Cersei, Strickland, Tyrion ?, the Vale( Robyn Arryn )?, the NK ?, Riverrun ?, Bronn?, some house of the North?, Dorne?

Anyone else?

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I just miss her getting to interact with real characters like Margaery, Littlefinger, Olenna, Cersei and others.  The writers claim we will see character interaction and dynamics but the most dynamic characters are gone, or a long way from Winterfell.  The majority of what's left is cookie cutter tropes.

Well, I am interested in seeing where her relationship with Dany goes. Also I really hope she has another meeting with Cersei. There is definitely unfinished business there. GRRM has dropped plenty of hints that Sansa will become a mini-Cersei. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

GRRM has dropped plenty of hints that Sansa will become a mini-Cersei. 

Hmm?  Book Sansa is not becoming Cersei; Cersei's role in her story is the same as Lysa and various others, she's a demonstration of what not to do in both life and politics.  We see that in ACOK, the payoff for which is Sansa refusing Cersei's attempts to make her nihilistic and uncaring.  Subsequently ,with Littlefinger, she's learning to see how foolish Cersei is.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

GRRM has dropped plenty of hints that Sansa will become a mini-Cersei. 

I don't believe that's true, seems quite the opposite, she'll be closer to QOT.

My opinion.

[Advance35]

Quote

Friki said;   Everyone wants Sansa Stark.

Let's see : Cersei, Strickland, Tyrion ?, the Vale( Robyn Arryn )?, the NK ?, Riverrun ?, Bronn?, some house of the North?, Dorne?

Anyone else?

If I had one wish, it would have been that Sansa be allowed to spend some time with Oberyn and Ellaria while they were all in Kings Landing.   They were all standing together at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding but that was the extent.  In the novels we actually got convos between the Ellaria/Oberyn/Sansa/Tyrion foursome.

Quote

Well, I am interested in seeing where her relationship with Dany goes. Also I really hope she has another meeting with Cersei. There is definitely unfinished business there. GRRM has dropped plenty of hints that Sansa will become a mini-Cersei. 

I was veery interested in the peer relationship with Margaery (who was a rich and textured character on her own), Dany doesn't do it for me.  I am interested in the Cersei of it all.  This may be the natural evolution but the show feels like it's missing something now that the canvas relies on characters like Jon and Dany to drive things.  Going from Tywin, Olenna, Joffrey, Littlefinger and Oberyn to what we have now......

It's why I was hoping Sansa's "rumored" storyline was, in fact, true.  While I understand Sansa's aversion to Dany (and the writers need someone who doesn't fall at the Mary Sue's feet), the evolution of the Cersei/Sansa relationship and exploring it where the characters are now, would be much more compelling then Sansa rightly loathing but then being won over by Dany the Glorious.

[Heathrowe]

On 4/5/2019 at 4:05 PM, GraceK said:

Oh please Sansa is not Elizabeth the 1. 🙄 that’s laughable.

Well...in your opinion! But I agree with the parallel. I think George RR Martin is inspired by bits of history and is not slavish to the facts or recreating a life scene by scene. I think the part of Sansa's story that most hews to Elizabeth is Elizabeth's story before she came queen-that she lived in disgrace, that adults made her (sometimes unwillingly or unknowingly) part of their intrigues and hurt her in the process. And that when she was able to take control, she went from being a pawn to having much more agency.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Heathrowe said:

Well...in your opinion! But I agree with the parallel. I think George RR Martin is inspired by bits of history and is not slavish to the facts or recreating a life scene by scene. I think the part of Sansa's story that most hews to Elizabeth is Elizabeth's story before she came queen-that she lived in disgrace, that adults made her (sometimes unwillingly or unknowingly) part of their intrigues and hurt her in the process. And that when she was able to take control, she went from being a pawn to having much more agency.

That’s a good point and I can definitely see from that perspective. 😊

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

I think the part of Sansa's story that most hews to Elizabeth is Elizabeth's story before she came queen-that she lived in disgrace, that adults made her (sometimes unwillingly or unknowingly) part of their intrigues and hurt her in the process. And that when she was able to take control, she went from being a pawn to having much more agency.

I agree - the part where Elizabeth fell into the hands of a stepfather figure at age 14 who apparently started molesting her with intention of 'grooming' her for a future romantic relationship to furthur his political ambition as well as to satisfy his own perviness seems a direct parallel. 

[Heathrowe]

Sansa and Elizabeth both had parents who were beheaded as traitors. A sad club to belong to!

[Advance35]

Well it was good to see Sansa again.   While her behavior is seen as controversial in some quarters, I was proud of her for (however grudgingly) continuing to do her duty even after Jon's letter announcing he sold the farm and Winterfell and The North have a new land lord.  She continued to work to keep the Northern Lords onside and it was only Jon's rather clumsy arrival and announcements that sent some of their allies packing.   I wonder if anyone else will leave.  Lord Royce does not look happy with the current state of the North.  He could take his forces and leave as well.  

I notice we see Sansa & Lord Royce conferencing when Tyrion interrupts.  I like that the show has continued to display that the Vale's loyalty (Lord Royce's) is to Sansa.

Her concerns about food were valid and she didn't stump her unchosen Queen with the subject, she threw it at her Lannister Hand.  How will they feed all these people.  Typical of neither Jon or Dany to consider those matters.   

And line of the night went to Sansa for her rejoinder to Tyrion.

Tyrion: The last time we spoke was at Joffrey's wedding.  A miserable affair.

Sansa: It had it's moments.

Short and savage.

[Constantinople]

I'd like to take this opportunity to blame Sansa for everything, including, but not limited to

• The return of the White Walkers
• Jon Arryn's murder
• Jaime pushing Bran out the window
• Daenerys's forced marriage and rape
• Catelyn taking Tyrion captive
• Khal Drogo killing Viserys
• The death of Khal Drogo
• Ned's execution
• Tyrion's really bad hairdo in Season 1

[Hana Chan]

Well, the show certainly was trying to lay it on thick at how smart Sansa is supposed to be but for someone who's being lauded as one of the great political minds of the century, she's missed out on a few very important points.

That just maybe, Jon knows what the hell he's talking about and that she's about to get a few hundred thousand ice zombies beating down her front door in the next few weeks. Jon's whole reason for going south was to build alliances in order to defend against the AOTD so being all surprised and perturbed that he shows up with two huge armies and a couple of dragons stills a bit stupid on her part.

Worrying that Jon's loyalty to Dany is based on love and not hard, gimlet-eyed rationality again comes across as silly since he's secured the alliances that the North needs. And if Jon loves Dany, so much the better. Getting the two of them married off would actually benefit the North tremendously since it would mean someone close in Dany's orbit (if she becomes Queen on more than claiming such) would have the interests of the North at heart. And shipping Jon off to marry Dany would leave Sansa as the undisputed ruler of the North. So win-win there.

Jon has spelled out very clearly just what threat they're all facing and he's still dealing with dissent from all corners, including from Sansa. Jon's focus is on the survival of their people because he understands that keeping the North independent is not as important as making sure as many people as possible survive the war with the AOTD. He gave up his title in order to help that cause. Just as Sam asked Jon if Dany would give up her crown for the sake of her people, the same question should be asked of Sansa. Is she willing to sacrifice anything to benefit someone other than herself?

[Minneapple]

26 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

He gave up his title in order to help that cause. 

No, he didn't. He gave up his title after Dany agreed to help them. That's why Sansa asked Jon why he bent the knee. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Minneapple

[Advance35]

If Jon were all "we've got to keep our forces unified and we need a happy alliance." Wouldn't it have been prudent to spare some consideration as to how his subjects would react to the news that they now have a new, southern, Targaryen Queen.  I/most thought there would be some grumbling but as Sansa informed him, some are packing up and leaving. 

Sansa  kept these Lord's onside while Jon was signing over the North (when it wasn't necessary).  She knew she had been stripped of position, but she still kept the Lords together under the Stark Banner.  Jon's speech about how what they gave him "didn't matter" (while true) went over like a lead balloon.  As a result Lord Glover took his people and went home, and Lord Royce is on the verge of calling it a day for The Vale (the only other Kingdom to agree to help, thanks to Sansa.)

Sansa may not be curtsying but she's doing all surface requirements.  It's Jon and Dany herself, that thought Dany's "charisma" would be enough to win over hearts and minds.  If Dany hadn't had a temper tantrum and dragon-fired a sizable food train, that could have been used as future necessary resources.

The only people hurting this endeavor are Dany "Me Glorious Me, you should be glad to bend the knee" Targaryen and Jon "no brains but good hair" Snow, with their ill thought out optics and manner (scaring the locals with dragons and threatening to have a Great House Daughter eaten by one, SMH).

I think Sansa does her job, she's just not going to chirp like a cartoon bird hanging up Snow Whites Laundry while doing it.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Advance35

[Nanrad]

The problem isn't that Sansa isn't chirping like a cartoon bird, it's that she's chirping too much for the smartest woman in Westeros. Even Dany says, "She doesn't need to be my friend..." when Jon mentioned Sansa didn't like him growing up.

I feel that the series really isn't doing Sansa justice because this would be interesting if she were as savvy as people claim.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nanrad

[merrick715]

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'd like to take this opportunity to blame Sansa for everything, including, but not limited to

•  

How dare you forget her greatest crime? Cersei's season one hair can't just be brushed away like that.

I love how Sansa is somehow utterly useless and stupid, and able to throw Westeros into utter chaos. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by merrick715

[Maximum Taco]

On 4/15/2019 at 12:27 PM, Hana Chan said:

Jon's whole reason for going south was to build alliances in order to defend against the AOTD so being all surprised and perturbed that he shows up with two huge armies and a couple of dragons stills a bit stupid on her part.

This is just fine, and Sansa no doubt expected an army to show up, what she didn't expect was for the army to show up WITH NO GODDAMN SUPPLIES. She says she ensured enough to keep the Northerners fed through the winter, but not for Dany's Unsullied, not for Dany's Dothraki, and not for Dany's Dragons. Which IMO is entirely reasonable. If you are bringing an army to an inhospitable field you'd think you'd bring supplies to feed your army, instead of relying on whoever is there already to feed you in addition to their own forces.  

They're in the North, and Winter has come. Jon knows this, so Tyrion and Dany should also know this. Sansa can only do so much to provide, she's called her banners, presumably with all the food stores they have, but she can't create food out of nothing. 

This is the issue,

Jon is a warrior, a commander, he knows what it will take to defeat an army, and how to lead that army. But he seems to have no idea how to provide for an army, or maintain any kind of loyalty cause he's never really had to, he's simply gotten loyalty by doing what he usually would do. The Night's Watch had an infrastructure in place. The Lord Commander Commands, but it's the First Steward who is responsible for the minutiae of actually feeding, clothing and housing the brothers. If a Night's Watch brother chooses insubordination, he's entirely within his rights and powers to kill them, and nobody is going to harbor a deserter. He can't do this with the noble houses of the North though, sure they could go and burn down Deepwood Motte, but it would be stupid to start a war an another front when the dead are marching south.  

Dany is also inexperienced here. In the past she's done things the Dothraki way. She conquers rich lands that overflow with gold and supplies. She takes a city and lives off the spoils. She has no experience with caring for people because she just kills her enemies and feeds her friends with their food and wealth. Well you can't do that when you take a barren rock that sits in the middle of the sea (Dragonstone) and you can't do that when you form an alliance which grows your army, and you can't do that when your enemy IS THE DEAD who has no supplies to loot and pillage. 

Sansa is the only one asking the important questions here.

"How do we feed our army?"

"Why do you expect the Northerners to be loyal to you?"

"Why do you expect Cersei to be honest with you?"

Tyrion apparently has gone simple. 

Jon is interested in nothing but the actual business of fighting. 

Dany is more interested in dick slinging then providing any kind of solution. I mean what the fuck was that answer? "Dragons eat whatever they want." Thanks Dany that's real fucking helpful. And you wonder why everyone hates you in the North. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

"Dragons eat whatever they want." Thanks Dany that's real fucking helpful. And you wonder why everyone hates you in the North. 

We, the audience, know that 'whatever they want' includes humans, especially little children make for yummy treats. And since she looked at Sansa after that, she made the 'human eating' pretty damn official.

19 hours ago, Nanrad said:

I feel that the series really isn't doing Sansa justice because this would be interesting if she were as savvy as people claim.

You know there are a few catch phrases that describe book Sansa. One of them being 'courtesy is a lady's armor'. Sansa is that through and through, in the books. There is nothing whatsoever of that in show!Sansa. And Sophie can't be blamed because she is charming enough IRL to be able to put that on screen. But the show runners have never cared for this character. She doesn't kill people, she doesn't ride dragons, she isn't a sex pot...meaning she is of no value to D&D. They had to radically change her in order to be the sort of female character they 'care about', aka a cold hearted bitch like all the other main females.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Smad

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Smad said:

But the show runners have never cared for this character. She doesn't kill people, she doesn't ride dragons, she isn't a sex pot...meaning she is of no value to D&D. They had to radically change her in order to be the sort of female character they 'care about', aka a cold hearted bitch like all the other main females.

Actually in a twisted way, I think the opposite. They do like Sansa... but they're misogynistic pigs and they can't any female character with nuance, even characters that they like. 

[Smad]

12 minutes ago, ursula said:

Actually in a twisted way, I think the opposite. They do like Sansa...

I don't think they do. They might say they do but since I don't believe anything coming out of D&D's mouths, I don't believe them about Sansa being a fave character.

It has shown since S1 that they don't care beyond how much of a victim they can make her or how much they can use her to tell stories about other characters. That's why there isn't a peep from Sansa for episodes in S1 until Martin writes her. Why she disappeared for episodes in S2, until Martin wrote her in Blackwater. Her entire storyline in KL is about being made a victim (including an almost gang rape) or to be a toy in someone else's plot. Namely the Tyrells and then Tyrion and Shae. Even when Sansa, the 13 year old child prisoner, is forced to marry a Lannister that allows her to be legally raped by said Lannister...guess what it's all about. Not the 13 year old child prisoner. It's all about Tyrion and Shae and how Tyrion didn't cheat on Shae. They stripped Sansa of pretty much all her connections, took away her observant nature, her courtesy armor and pretty much anything that made Sansa Sansa. It seemed like S4 they wanted to course correct, even if it was in the most superficial and dumbest way possible.

And then they decided they hadn't punished her enough, they really wanted Ramsey to rape another girl and for Theon to find his non-existent balls and they didn't want to develop Sansa into a player. Because God knows that would be more boring than having her raped and brutalized. They loved Ramsey raping Jeyne in the books and women are interchangeable rape dolls. And Sansa still needed to pay for saying 'ew no' to sex with St. Tyrion. Nothing in this storyline was about Sansa. What comes after is just more of the same nonsense, they tried to lampshade and retcon their horrible S5 crap and it only made things worse. Just in a different way.

[Advance35]

Quote

Sansa is the only one asking the important questions here.

"How do we feed our army?"

"Why do you expect the Northerners to be loyal to you?"

"Why do you expect Cersei to be honest with you?"

Tyrion apparently has gone simple. 

Jon is interested in nothing but the actual business of fighting. 

All of this.  As a leader, Sansa HAS to act like they are going to make it through this.   Should she run around Winterfell screaming "We are doomed. DOOOOOOMMMMEEED."  "Nothing matters, it's all pointless."   A leader has to act like the world is going to go on spinning.

IF they make it through everything coming, what happens when they come out the other end and everyone starts to get hungry? Will they send for the food from the Reach?  Whoops, nope Dany had a tantrum and burned it all.  What about Sunspear, maybe they can help?  Wait, nope. Bad things tend to happen when someone becomes allied with Danerys Targaryen.

Jon just wants Sansa to sit and nod her head.  No matter what he does or says.  He claims unification is the most important thing but HE is the one that drove Lord Glover away.  Not taking into account how the Northern Nobles feel about Targaryens.   This is a world where people take and feel everything to the bitter end.   Now he has A Targaryen Queen, Her Lannister Hand (the family that orchestrated the Red Wedding) and soon to be, from the looks of things, possibly, Jaimie Lannister (a man who glibly and gleefully murdered Northmen from Season 1 - 2) all be barking orders at the Northerners.

What does he use for brains????  Sansa is doing more than anyone in terms of working towards keeping people together.  Jon and Dany just do whatever they want and expect everyone to get in line.   Even after the food issue was raised, what happened, Jon and Dany went on a cheesy as hell magic carpet, I mean Dragon ride (I can't watch that scene without hearing the score to Reading Rainbow or Never-ending Story).

Sansa's the only one acting like a leader.  And I can understand why she's over being polite.  She had to curtsey and bow and hold her tongue for years in Kings Landing.  She's OVER it.  She'll do her job but If this is the end, she's going to go telling Dany to kiss her a$$.

And it kills me some think a marriage should make Sansa feel more secure.  First she has no idea what their inbred spawn would be like.  Second, marriage is just another battlefield.  She knows what Cersei did to the Baratheons.  Cersei drove Roberts family into extinction. Edmure Tully and Roslyn Frey is a union that lives in infamy.  The Lannister and The Tyrell Alliance was a brutal courtly war that saw Olenna murder her Grandson by Law, frame dead Grandson's Uncle and Aunt by Law, that started a sequence of events that led to Cersei murdering all of the Tyrells (w/ help from Jaimie).  Littlefinger married Lyssa until he could get the upper hand of power in the Vale and then he murdered her right in front of Sansa.  And Sansa herself was married to Tyrion Lannister and while not out and out enemies, she had no problem (understandably) leaving him to his fate.  I won't even touch Ramsay/Sansa but their marriage quickly descended into depravity and brutality and ended in a savage denouement.

Sansa knows marriage does not automatically mean people are on the same side.  She's seen it used countless times to undermine, subvert and destroy Houses.  It's clear Davos has spent very little time in Court, just like Jon.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Advance35

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

You know there are a few catch phrases that describe book Sansa. One of them being 'courtesy is a lady's armor'. Sansa is that through and through, in the books. There is nothing whatsoever of that in show!Sansa. And Sophie can't be blamed because she is charming enough IRL to be able to put that on screen. But the show runners have never cared for this character. She doesn't kill people, she doesn't ride dragons, she isn't a sex pot...meaning she is of no value to D&D. They had to radically change her in order to be the sort of female character they 'care about', aka a cold hearted bitch like all the other main females.

So this is the book passage I always think of when I think of Sansa:

"She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looked ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her." - Tyrion Lannister, A Storm of Swords

Book Sansa knows about courtly manners. She knows about courtly intrigue and gossip. She knows how to flatter people. These things have value for a lady of the court, perhaps a queen, and that's how GRRM wrote them. I think she could become cold and bitchy (read Alayne's Winds of Winter chapter and you see where she's going). But D&D skipped all of her good character development and went right to cold and bitchy. The thing that bothered me most is that they skipped the best parts of her Vale arc when she's learning to run a castle, and they sent her to Ramsey Bolton to be raped instead. Like what the fuck! What value did that have at all? 

Sansa in the Vale and Jaime in the Riverlands are two of my favorite book arcs, and D&D really butchered them. But hey, at least Dorne wasn't my fave book arc.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

We, the audience, know that 'whatever they want' includes humans, especially little children make for yummy treats. And since she looked at Sansa after that, she made the 'human eating' pretty damn official.

I'm aware of what Dany meant. Everyone in the room was aware, she is the least subtle woman alive. 

The thing is, that isn't helpful. Sansa is bringing up legitimate concerns about how everyone is going to get the food they need to live. And Dany decides this is the best time to remind Sansa and all of her newfound tenuous allies who don't trust her at all and only remember her as the daughter of the man who burned their Lord alive about her fire breathing monsters. 

All it does is deepen that distrust and ignore the issue of how they are going to get enough food to stay the fuck alive. And also remind them that a good portion of them are going to starve so her FIRE BREATHING FUCKING MONSTERS can eat eighteen goats and eleven sheep. Or worse that her FIRE BREATHING FUCKING MONSTERS are going to eat them once the food starts to run out. 

Gee I wonder why Dany isn't beloved worshipped and respected by the masses? Maybe it's because she could not give a rat's ass about their need for food?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

It has shown since S1 that they don't care beyond how much of a victim they can make her or how much they can use her to tell stories about other characters.

I think... and this sounds horrible because it is horrible... that one of the tenets of misogyny is equating a woman's virtue with a woman's victimhood. It shouldn't make sense to you or I but I've consumed enough straight white male-created media to acknowledge that yes, this disgusting pattern exists and is insidious and prevalent.

(Did I imagine this but isn't there some quaint saying about suffering being a virtue?)

[GraceK]

17 minutes ago, ursula said:

I think... and this sounds horrible because it is horrible... that one of the tenets of misogyny is equating a woman's virtue with a woman's victimhood. It shouldn't make sense to you or I but I've consumed enough straight white male-created media to acknowledge that yes, this disgusting pattern exists and is insidious and prevalent.

(Did I imagine this but isn't there some quaint saying about suffering being a virtue?)

Makes sense. I’ve heard Joanna Robinson say in one of her podcasts that she finds Dany hard to relate too because she hasn’t suffered enough. She said she liked her better in season  1, but after that, she has just had such a clear purpose, and she is just so determined on her path that she can’t relate to her. Her favorite characters are Jaime and Jorah. 🤦🏻‍♀️ If that’s not internalized misogyny what is? I don’t get it. I guess rape, loss of a baby, a husband, starvation in a desert, abuse by her brother, growing up an outcast on the run, dead parents, sold to a warlord...etc etc isn’t enough suffering because she ends up in a stronger position? I can’t even. Poor Sansa has to suffer the torments of Job before the audience gives her sympathy. What the hell? Even Cersei, the worst one of all IMO, gets a walk of shame and suddenly she’s sympathetic. Oh but Jaime loses a hand I guess so he’s totally redeemed now! 🤦🏻‍♀️

Edited April 17, 2019 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

It drives me crazy that there's this implicit idea in GOT that woman + trauma = badass, while there's a simultaneous recognition that men who are traumatized get fucked up and broken down in recognizable and realistic ways (Theon, Tyrion, etc.). I guess you only get to have PTSD if you're a man.

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Book Sansa knows about courtly manners. She knows about courtly intrigue and gossip. She knows how to flatter people. These things have value for a lady of the court, perhaps a queen, and that's how GRRM wrote them. I think she could become cold and bitchy (read Alayne's Winds of Winter chapter and you see where she's going).

D&D keep insisting that Sansa is this consummate politician, and they have her doing things like openly antagonizing someone who is much stronger and whose help they desperately need, instead of deploying a charm offensive to conceal her true feelings and intentions (as Littlefinger would have done). Still, I do find it realistic that as someone said upthread that Sansa would be over courtesies and pleasantries after having to spend so much time watching her words and biting her tongue lest they earn her a beating.

Also, from what we saw of her in S1 and the way she behaved towards everyone, TV Sansa's default personality is rude and bitchy. It makes sense that she would revert to that once she feels sufficiently safe and secure to be herself.

9 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Sansa is bringing up legitimate concerns about how everyone is going to get the food they need to live. 

Feeding Dany's armies and dragons is Dany's problem. If it isn't a legitimate concern for Dany, the one who's actually responsible for them and who presumably kept them fed on the way to Winterfell, and if it isn't a legitimate concern for Jon, who is obsessed with getting as many soldiers as he can against to fight against the AOTD, then it certainly isn't for Sansa. Sansa just wanted an excuse to lash out at Tyrion and Dany because she was angry about the Lannister army promise and Dany in general. (And of course she's too cowardly to call out Dany directly, but she's happy to go in on Tyrion because she knows he would never hurt her.) Dany was right to shut that nonsense down as crisply and swiftly as she did.

Quote

And Dany decides this is the best time to remind Sansa and all of her newfound tenuous allies who don't trust her at all and only remember her as the daughter of the man who burned their Lord alive about her fire breathing monsters. 

It was the best time. Sansa was acting out and needed to be shut down as an example to the others, lest Dany's authority be undermined. Maybe Jon can tell Sansa all about the time he executed a man for mouthing off one too many times to bring her up to speed on how this works. 

Davos said in this episode that the respect of the Northerners needs to be earned. You don't earn people's respect by letting them talk shit and walk all over you without pushing back, and that applies to Sansa. Sansa's not going to respect Dany if Dany rolls over for her. If Dany had politely and compassionately tried to address Sansa's concerns and treated them with any seriousness, Sansa would have written her off as a clueless, patronizing weakling. Sansa wasn't raising "legitimate concerns." She was challenging Dany, and Dany reacted accordingly.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Feeding Dany's armies and dragons is Dany's problem. If it isn't a legitimate concern for Dany, the one who's actually responsible for them and who presumably kept them fed on the way to Winterfell, and if it isn't a legitimate concern for Jon, who is obsessed with getting as many soldiers as he can against to fight against the AOTD, then it certainly isn't for Sansa. Sansa just wanted an excuse to lash out at Tyrion and Dany because she was angry about the Lannister army promise and Dany in general. (And of course she's too cowardly to call out Dany directly, but she's happy to go in on Tyrion because she knows he would never hurt her.) Dany was right to shut that nonsense down as crisply and swiftly as she did.

If Dany is going to feed her armies, then this is true. But it sure doesn't seem like she is. Dany didn't respond to the inquiry with "I'll look after my soldiers and dragons, you look after yours" she responded with "Oh maybe my Dragons will just eat you." 

The context of the conversation definitely seems like Jon and Dany are going to be relying on Sansa and the North to provide supplies for the entire army, which is patently ridiculous. And if that is the case it most definitely is Sansa's problem. She has arranged to provide for her own soldiers and her own smallfolk, if that army has suddenly tripled or quadrupled, well someone is going to go hungry, and Dany has very expressly pointed out that it will not be the dragons. 

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It was the best time. Sansa was acting out and needed to be shut down as an example to the others, lest Dany's authority be undermined. Maybe Jon can tell Sansa all about the time he executed a man for mouthing off one too many times to bring her up to speed on how this works. 

Davos said in this episode that the respect of the Northerners needs to be earned. You don't earn people's respect by letting them talk shit and walk all over you without pushing back, and that applies to Sansa. Sansa's not going to respect Dany if Dany rolls over for her. 

You also don't earn people's respect by threatening to feed them to your monsters. You earn their enmity. 

Sansa deserved to be rebuked no doubt, she could have easily raised the issue not in open court, something Jon asked her to do when he was King. However it was a terrible choice by Dany. The Northerners already mistrust and dislike her, threatening to feed their Lady (and by extension them) to dragons is not the way to build a happy union. 

Moreso ignoring the query of how we are going to get enough food to last the winter, is not the way to build trust in one's leadership. This is a land where winter is deadly, and the Northerners don't appreciate veiled threats and flippant comments. What they do appreciate is straight shooting, of the kind Sansa is doing.  

Sansa: I was just wondering how you plan to feed everyone. I have enough to feed the Northerners, but I don't have enough to feed the godless heathens and FIRE BREATHING FUCKING MONSTERS you brought.  

Other Lords Thoughts: Gee that's a good thought. Winter has come after all. It's a good thing we have Sansa looking after us. 

Dany: Oh maybe I'll have my FIRE BREATHING FUCKING MONSTERS start eating people. 

Other Lords Thoughts: Gee. I don't like that. 

Dany is fixing to get herself assassinated. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Hana Chan]

It's not realistic to assume that Dany had her army march all the way to Winterfell without having their own supplies to sustain them for at least the duration of the march. Armies on the move always have to take supplies in account and whether they can forage from the land (not likely if they're walking into a post-harvest season) or if they'll depend on supply lines. Over the long-term, Sansa's concerns about supplies would be valid since whatever supplies Dany's troops brought with them would run out and it would be very easy for any supply lines south to get cut off.

What Sansa misses is that this is not going to be a long engagement. Jon has tried (and failed apparently ) to impress upon her that they only have a brief period before they will have to engage the AOTD. My guess is that Jon assumed that if the wall was standing that Dany and her troops would be needed at the Wall and would meet the enemy beyond the wall. That would mean that the Unsullied, Dorthraki and dragons would be moving on before long and not eating Sansa out of her house and home (though Jon would expect Winterfell to support all troops during this war). Now that the wall has fallen, they have maybe a few days to weeks (tops) before the AOTD arrive on their doorstep.

Sansa's conduct made little sense if (as others have pointed out), she's publicly insulting Dany and her support to the protection of the people of the North (which as queen-claimant would be Dany's responsibility). Turning her nose up at allies who have no personal stakes in the survival of the north outside of eventual self-preservation should the AOTD make it south is beyond stupid. What's likely to happen is that once the fighting starts, Jon will be proven right and Sansa will be cowering in the crypts because she will be zero use once the AOTD shows up. Maybe she can count her kernels of grain while she's down there while Jon, Dany, the dragons, the Unsullied, the Dothraki and the warriors of the north put their lives at risk to protect her. 

[Advance35]

Quote

You also don't earn people's respect by threatening to feed them to your monsters. You earn their enmity. 

Sansa deserved to be rebuked no doubt, she could have easily raised the issue not in open court, something Jon asked her to do when he was King. However it was a terrible choice by Dany. The Northerners already mistrust and dislike her, threatening to feed their Lady (and by extension them) to dragons is not the way to build a happy union. 

Moreso ignoring the query is not the way to build trust. 

Sansa: I was just wondering how you plan to feed us. 

Other Lords Thoughts: Gee that's a good thought. Winter has come after all.

Dany: Oh maybe I'll have my FIRE BREATHING FUCKING MONSTERS start eating people. 

Other Lords Thoughts: Gee. I don't like that. 

Dany is fixing to get herself assassinated. 

Could you imagine if Dany had said "they'll eat the food my legions brought so as not to burden the resources of our host, Lord Snow." BOOM!!!  Put's the food issue to bed, reminds Sansa she has been flung a few rungs down the power latter and all without resorting to veiled threats.  I have know doubt the Northern Lords find Sansa haughty, but fact is, she gets the job done on issues they know.   She's North first, always.

As it is, everyone in that hall can see Sansa is PO'ed and some (as proven by the people deserting) understand her reasoning.  This is a world, where when facing imminent death a person's last desire is to strike out at whom they hate most (see Olenna, look at Cersei), the Northern Lords are no different in that regard.  If they are going to die, I have no doubt they'd love to hurt/kill Lannisters and all of their other enemies on their way out.

If Jon ever bothered to consult with her, she might tell him that.  It's noteworthy that Lord Glover sent the letter to Sansa saying he's done.  He didn't want to deal with Jon or Dany.  Lady Mormont (once Jon's biggest fan) spit nails in that Great Hall meeting.

I concede I'd say 40% - 50% of Sansa's issues with Dany are the fact that she seethingly resents anyone having power over her.  And I honestly think Jon would be a little more "forceful" with Sansa, if he didn't know Lord Royce would pack up and leave so fast, heads would spin.  The Vale's forces are not as numerous as Dany's but Jon still values them, so he needs Sansa.  

He should start acting like it.

[Maximum Taco]

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It's not realistic to assume that Dany had her army march all the way to Winterfell without having their own supplies to sustain them for at least the duration of the march. Armies on the move always have to take supplies in account and whether they can forage from the land (not likely if they're walking into a post-harvest season) or if they'll depend on supply lines. Over the long-term, Sansa's concerns about supplies would be valid since whatever supplies Dany's troops brought with them would run out and it would be very easy for any supply lines south to get cut off.

What Sansa misses is that this is not going to be a long engagement. Jon has tried (and failed apparently ) to impress upon her that they only have a brief period before they will have to engage the AOTD. My guess is that Jon assumed that if the wall was standing that Dany and her troops would be needed at the Wall and would meet the enemy beyond the wall. That would mean that the Unsullied, Dorthraki and dragons would be moving on before long and not eating Sansa out of her house and home (though Jon would expect Winterfell to support all troops during this war). Now that the wall has fallen, they have maybe a few days to weeks (tops) before the AOTD arrive on their doorstep.

Sansa's conduct made little sense if (as others have pointed out), she's publicly insulting Dany and her support to the protection of the people of the North (which as queen-claimant would be Dany's responsibility). Turning her nose up at allies who have no personal stakes in the survival of the north outside of eventual self-preservation should the AOTD make it south is beyond stupid. What's likely to happen is that once the fighting starts, Jon will be proven right and Sansa will be cowering in the crypts because she will be zero use once the AOTD shows up. Maybe she can count her kernels of grain while she's down there while Jon, Dany, the dragons, the Unsullied, the Dothraki and the warriors of the north put their lives at risk to protect her. 

These are all assumptions and don't address the issue. 

"Of course Dany's army brought supplies for themselves" - Says who? Dany doesn't say so, Jon doesn't say so, Tyrion doesn't say so. When Sansa raises the issue there's a palpable beat where anyone could say that there are more than enough supplies to go around, they're all there, they all heard her. But no one does. Instead Dany responds with veiled threats about dragons eating people. 

"This won't be a long engagement" - So? All this means is the army is going to eat Winterfell dry and then leave, and they are currently in a winter that can last DECADES. Jon is (arguably appropriately) only thinking of the battle to come. But Sansa is the one who is going to have to provide for all the Northerners (and any wounded) when Dany presumably marches south again to finish her war with Cersei. If Dany wants to be Queen of these people, she should also be thinking about this. Now it's possible (and even likely) that the winter will magically end when/if the Night King dies, but they have no reason to assume this is true, a winter that lasts decades is the norm in this world, and they need to assume this winter will be the same as all the winters before it. 

Sansa's conduct makes perfect sense. There are three armies at Winterfell, and a FOURTH is proposed to be joining them. Basic arithmetic says that 4 times the people are going to plow through food 4 times as quickly. She needs to be thinking about the aftermath here, because that's what a leader would do.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[GodsBeloved]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon is (arguably appropriately) only thinking of the battle to come. But Sansa is the one who is going to have to provide for all the Northerners (and any wounded) when Dany presumably marches south again to finish her war with Cersei. 

Sansa's conduct makes perfect sense. There are three armies at Winterfell, and a FOURTH is proposed to be joining them. Basic arithmetic says that 4 times the people are going to plow through food 4 times as quickly. She needs to be thinking about the aftermath here, because that's what a leader would do.

I agree. Both Sansa and Jon have valid points and they don't contradict each other. Both issues need to be addressed. Jon is thinking short term and Sansa is thinking long term.

Edited April 17, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Eyes High]

45 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

If Dany is going to feed her armies, then this is true. But it sure doesn't seem like she is.

That is your assumption. It's a fact that feeding Dany's armies and dragons is her responsibility and Jon's concern (as the leader of armies), and that neither Jon nor Dany has expressed any concerns about feeding Dany's armies and dragons. It's also a fact that multiple characters have expressed concern for Sansa's obvious dislike for Dany. So between the issue of feeding Dany's armies which only Sansa professes to care about and Sansa's dislike of Dany, which is more likely to be the actual issue at play?

32 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I have know doubt the Northern Lords find Sansa haughty, but fact is, she gets the job done on issues they know.   She's North first, always.

And "North first" is an idiotic attitude that would have gotten everyone in the North killed. The Northerners' and Sansa's judgment on this is severely lacking. Remember that Jon undertook this successful mission to secure Dany as an ally over Sansa and the Northern lords' vigorous and explicit objections. If he had taken their advice, they'd all be dead, including Sansa. (Not to mention that the good opinion of the Northern lords is worth nothing, since they are incredibly fickle and prone to turn tail or propose treason at the drop of a hat.)

I will say that Jon didn't help matters with the Northerners' attitudes towards Dany by throwing her under the bus and claiming that he knelt because he had to choose between the crown and saving the North. That is not what happened. And really, Jon should be the one answering any Northern bitching about Dany. They entrusted Jon to make decisions in their best interests, and he decided that Dany ruling them was in their best interests. If they have a problem with that choice, they should take it up with him and not Dany.

32 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I concede I'd say 40% - 50% of Sansa's issues with Dany are the fact that she seethingly resents anyone having power over her. 

It's more like 90%-100%. Dany is bigger and badder, and Sansa cannot stand it.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That is your assumption. It's a fact that feeding Dany's armies and dragons is her responsibility and Jon's concern (as the leader of armies), and that neither Jon nor Dany has expressed any concerns about feeding Dany's armies and dragons. It's also a fact that multiple characters have expressed concern for Sansa's obvious dislike for Dany. So between the issue of feeding Dany's armies which only Sansa professes to care about and Sansa's dislike of Dany, which is more likely to be the actual issue at play?

And it's your assumption that Dany and Jon have thought to provide for their army and not just put that on Sansa. It could easily have been addressed in that very scene. But it wasn't. At no point does Dany or Jon or Tyrion say to Sansa "We have enough food to provide for our army for X weeks" no all she gets is "Dragons can eat people too. That's fine."

IMO, if someone has a legitimate answer to make someone look foolish they would use it. 

Quote

Sansa: How are we going to feed people?

Dany: Lady Stark, we have enough supplies to provide for our army for two weeks. Hopefully we will be successful in battle and gone from Winterfell before we exhaust them. 

If someone doesn't have a legitimate answer, that is when they resort to vague statements, or threats, or name calling.

Quote

Sansa: How are we going to feed people?

Dany: Well my Dragons like to eat bitches, bitch.

The only characters who have expressed concern for Sansa's dislike of Dany are the people who are either fucking Dany, or want to. 

I don't deny that Sansa dislikes Dany, and that definitely is her motivation for bringing out her points in open court (something I have agreed is inappropriate), but that doesn't invalidate her concerns about feeding the armies and the smallfolk, or her concerns about the tenuous loyalty of the Northerners (something she is proven to be right on as Lord Glover's letter shows), or her concerns about Cersei's trustworthiness (something we all know she is right on.)

Sansa can be petulant and still be right. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

And it's your assumption that Dany and Jon have thought to provide for their army and not just put that on Sansa. It could easily have been addressed in that very scene. But it wasn't.

Yes, but at no point do Dany or Jon worry about feeding Dany's armies or dragons, even though unlike Sansa they are extremely concerned about feeding them. They do worry about Sansa disliking and disrespecting Dany. So again, which is the valid concern here? That feeding the armies is a real problem and Sansa has a point, or that Sansa's acting like a hateful bitch towards Dany?

Quote

At no point does Dany or Jon or Tyrion say to Sansa "We have enough food to provide for our army for X weeks" no all she gets is "Dragons can eat people too. That's fine."

Sansa wasn't asking a serious question. She was being bratty,, and she got a smackdown appropriate for someone acting like a brat. If Sansa and the Northern lords want to freak out and clutch their pearls and interpret what was obviously nothing more than a dressing down for Sansa's disrespect as Dany announcing a new dragon maneating policy, effective immediately, well, that's their business.

[Advance35]

Quote

Sansa can be petulant and still be right. 

This is it in a nutshell (for me).

Her delivery is never aimed at endearing herself to anyone anymore.  Maybe she thinks it doesn't matter.  She tried it with the Lannisters and was beat/abused for her trouble, she tried it with Lyssa Arryn who tried to murder her anyway.  After that, I feel like she had developed her "me and the rest of the world" mentality.  Her time with Ramsay just cemented it.

And look around, she was tight with Margaery, while they were in Kings Landing and she saw how Margaery maneuvered, but she has also heard about how it ended for her.  It might be why she is more skewed towards Cersei's coldness.

I don't think she has faith in love, so Jon and Dany's relationship, she doesn't view as any sort of insurance for House Stark.  On experience alone, her love story was with Littlefinger, warped, twisted and grisly as it was.  I think what drives Sansa is fear, anger over what's happened to her, grief (something she wasn't allowed to openly display in Kings Landing) and a determination to never find herself in such circumstances again.

She's going to do her best for the North (hence why she cares about food rations, if any survive, they'll need it) but she cannot bring herself to willingly relinquish the Norths (and her) freedom from the Iron Throne.

Jon doesn't have the same relationship/history with the Iron Throne, or at least not the deeply personal history, Sansa does.  He loved everyone they lost just as much as Sansa (with the exception of Catelyn) but Sansa was there, face to face with their enemies, enduring the beatings, taunts, schemes and forced to watch as the Lannisters consistently hung onto and accumulated more power, no matter what they did.

What a mess.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Advance35

[Eyes High]

I said this in the episode thread, but I really don't think Sansa's dislike of Dany will amount to anything substantial in the end. If anything, getting off on the wrong foot gives their relationship room to grow and improve as they get to know each other. If they instantly got along extremely well, that's when I'd be getting very nervous. And I think that ultimately, Dany using her armies and her dragons to help protect Sansa's home will mean a great deal to Sansa. I think the only thing Sansa really cares about anymore is Winterfell, anyway.

As a character arc, I find it depressing that in the show Sansa seems to have turned into Cersei, a person she despised: cold, power-obsessed, and seeing all outsiders as enemies. Understandable, I guess, but depressing.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[Hana Chan]

The reality is that Sansa was using food as an excuse to snark on Dany's presence. She didn't get bent out of shape after being told that she was expected to feed Dany's troops for the next six years. From the instant that Jon wrote to Sansa about bending the knee and ceding authority to Dany, Sansa has been upset. The moment she meets Dany for the first time, she's posturing in a hostile manner that's barely softened with the basic courtesy that her rank requires her to display. And by weakening Jon's position with the Northern Lords, she's pushing him further into Dany's orbit.

 Sansa ended up weakening her own hand in dealing with Dany. She might be right about many things, but Dany is still on the path to being a major power in Westeros and that will affect the North (even if they retain their independence). The fact that Dany is choosing to bypass Sansa nearly altogether and focus on using Jon as her conduit with the North is really important because while Jon has no specific title or responsibilities, she still sees him as the leader in the North and is dealing with him as a near equal (or at least a direct subordinate). Sansa is sidelining herself and by making this about food and not the real issue (the independence of the North). She's inadvertently telling Dany that she's just another small-minded Northerner who can't see the big picture (and since Sansa hasn't see the AOTD for herself, Dany is right in that respect).

And Sansa is totally disregarding the fact that if she wants to get Cersei out of their lives, supporting Dany is not a stupid thing to do. But then, the revelation of Jon's heritage is going to throw something of a monkey-wrench into things going forward. And supporting a marriage between Jon and Dany would be a smart thing to protect Northern interests (so a love match would not be unwelcome if she had half the political intelligence that she's being given credit for). For all the claims that Sansa is some kind of great Machiavellian mind, she's still missing 90% of the picture.

[Stella]

I've seen so much discussion about the food issue and I believe the main reason is to remind the viewer that food issues exist. That they are real and serious. After that Town Hall meeting we learn that 18 goats and 11 sheep is not enough food for one meal for the dragons! So the show doubled down on the validity of Sansa's concern. The dragons can't get by on this enormous amount of food that would literally feed hundreds of people. And I would bet in the next episode Dany's irrational act of burning tons and tons of food in the Loot Train attack will come to light at the worst possible moment. So whether Sansa handled the situation with the proper courtesy is not the main issue.  I won't be surprised if the dragons eat people in the next episode. They've done it before, Jorah talked about it last season, Dany said they can eat whatever they want...

[Eyes High]

24 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

 Sansa ended up weakening her own hand in dealing with Dany. She might be right about many things, but Dany is still on the path to being a major power in Westeros and that will affect the North (even if they retain their independence). The fact that Dany is choosing to bypass Sansa nearly altogether and focus on using Jon as her conduit with the North is really important because while Jon has no specific title or responsibilities, she still sees him as the leader in the North and is dealing with him as a near equal (or at least a direct subordinate). Sansa is sidelining herself and by making this about food and not the real issue (the independence of the North). She's inadvertently telling Dany that she's just another small-minded Northerner who can't see the big picture (and since Sansa hasn't see the AOTD for herself, Dany is right in that respect).

And Sansa is totally disregarding the fact that if she wants to get Cersei out of their lives, supporting Dany is not a stupid thing to do. But then, the revelation of Jon's heritage is going to throw something of a monkey-wrench into things going forward. And supporting a marriage between Jon and Dany would be a smart thing to protect Northern interests (so a love match would not be unwelcome if she had half the political intelligence that she's being given credit for). For all the claims that Sansa is some kind of great Machiavellian mind, she's still missing 90% of the picture.

Right, the play is obvious, isn't it?

Roll out the red carpet for Dany. Make a big show of accommodating all her troops in grand style. Make big speeches within Dany's hearing about the need to set aside petty grievances and pointing out that Dany is putting her own dragons and men on the line for the North. Ooze charm and express sympathy for everything Dany has endured. Assure Dany you will try to smooth things over with the Northern lords (and in private with the Northern lords, make it clear you're only acting this way For The Good of the North, so shut up and play along). Stick up for Dany in front of people who will make sure she finds out about it. Ply her with tales of woe about all the horrible things evil queen Cersei has done. Confide in her--with just the right show of reluctance to admit something so personal--about your ordeal with Ramsay to "explain" your attachment to Winterfell and suspicion of outsiders. Encourage her love affair with Jon, and tell her charming stories about Jon's childhood (leaving out the part where you snubbed him repeatedly). When the moment is right, suggest a marriage, which will of course conveniently leave the North in need of a new Warden once Cersei has been dealt with.

...It would also be a smart move to try to stay on Tyrion's good side  rather than avoiding him and insulting him repeatedly, but what do I know?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[ursula]

The question is: what does Sansa mean to get out of antagonising Dany?

I mean forget the Army of the Dead and whether they believe in them or not. Forget Jon's election coronation and the fact that he bent the knee to Dany.

Dany, the Mad King's Daughter and the Mad Queen herself. Is in Winterfell. With her army of vicious brown people. A pair of fire-breathing weapons of mass destruction. And loyal bodyguards all around her. So the "Smartest Person in The World" decides that the best way to deal with This Raving Psychopath is to... provoke her? 

OMG, the writing in this show is so frustrating and .... fanfiction-y. It's like someone from tumblr infiltrated the show midway through season 4, and has completely hijacked this season. I mean it was bad enough last time with the "Seven Samurai of the North" plot* but at this point, it's like I'm just reading some "imagine" fanfic that some highschooler typed out on their phone.

*(And I love, love, love how Sansa is suddenly the  most brilliant person for seeing through the uselessness and futility of the plot to Make Cersei See Reason when every single member of the viewing audience already knew that. When we were all laughing at the plot as it happened in real time. Now suddenly it's Brilliant! and Clever! of Sansa to see through it! Of course, Sansa is going to be "the smartest person in the world". Every other character was turned into an idiot.)

Edited April 17, 2019 by ursula

[Advance35]

Quote

...It would also be a smart move to try to stay on Tyrion's good side  rather than avoiding him and insulting him repeatedly, but what do I know?

But as many of Jon/Dany fans point out, what if there is no tomorrow.  People say Sansa shouldn't be worried about the future, think about the now, but why wine, dine and fake bond if she has no future?  She did it for years, if tomorrow is the end she wants to go out with her power in tact (like everyone else in this world) not subordinate to Dany, then Tyrion Lannister (eager to please a Lannister, You've come a long way Sansa), I'm not sure whom comes next, Jorah? Missandei? Varys and then Jon?

And everyone points out how Jon is right, titles don't matter, this House v. that House doesn't matter but why couldn't he assure Cersei (not that it would have changed her actions) that House Stark would not take part in the Dany v. Cersei inevitable conflict?   He felt it had to be declared that Dany is QUEEN (though I thought Titles didn't matter????).

As Lady Regent Sansa was working to keep the North running (and keeping the Lords from rebelling while he was held as "Guest" at Dragonstone, which she warned him about) and Jon unceremoniously stripped her of her power. 

At present, STRIPPED of her power, she is working to make sure Lord Royce doesn't take the Vale forces and scram (lord knows Jon and his Queen aren't doing anything to cajole people into staying).  While some of their Northern Vassals leave.

Jon jumps up and down bellowing "It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter" the fact is, to people he wants to fight with/for him and his chosen (their unwanted) Queen, it DOES matter.  They care about who their ruler is.  If he wants everyone to focus on the approaching army, he shouldn't have thrown this nuclear bomb of a distraction into the fray.

I can't blame Sansa for her disgust.

[ursula]

(And D & D need to shut up about food already. This is the same show that had Dany fly over Westeros in a few hours without stopping for a bathroom break. The same show that has rendered the entire Frey plot pointless because apparently crossing the Neck is now easier than crossing the US-Canadian border. D & D do not have the intelligence or the interest in writing a coherent logistics "practicality" sub-plot since they ran out of source material. Having Sansa harp on shrilly about "grains in the barn" to feed an army that can turn into an invading force at the drop of an hat ---- just displays how little they understand about the verse they've been working in for almost a decade. What's so frustrating is that there are AWOIAF-enthusiasts on Westeros.org who could have given them free consultation just for the joy of being part of this adaptation. They're not messing up because the resources are not there. They're messing up because they are arrogant enough to think that the success of this series had as much (or more, I imagine) to do with them than with the source material they started with).

[Hana Chan]

4 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Jon unceremoniously stripped her of her power. 

It wasn't her power. Jon was the one named King in the North, not Sansa. It was his power to hold, to ask her to use while he was away and to give up if he felt it best served the interest of the North.

Her position as Lady of Winterfell hasn't changed and the Lord of Lady of Winterfell remains the de facto leader of the North regardless of who is in charge at Kings Landing. Sansa was a subordinate to Jon (as KITN) and now she's subordinate to Dany (as claimant to the IT). When Jon's heritage becomes public knowledge and if he makes his claim for the IT (with or without Dany at his side), she would become Jon's subordinate again. Unless she leads the Northern Lords in total rebellion and they proclaim her as QITN, that's not going to change.

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

she is working to make sure Lord Royce doesn't take the Vale forces and scram (lord knows Jon and his Queen aren't doing anything to cajole people into staying)

That's about the only coherent aspect of the plot.

The Vale are insignificant compared to Dany's troops and until they declare for her, they are yet another fighting force that she needs to conquer. She would probably be more comfortable with them gone. 

On the other hand, the Vale Army have undiluted loyalty to Sansa and are probably the only ones that do. The wildling army is for Jon. The Northern lords are fickle and they crowned Jon, not her King (even though it was Sansa's by right of birth, conquest and even marriage but if I start with that one I won't ever stop). Vale marched for her, via Littlefinger and her cousin.

Sansa isn't asking the Vale forces to stick around to "help" Dany+Jon.

Like I said, that's about the only aspect of this story that makes sense.

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Jon unceremoniously stripped her of her power. 

At present, STRIPPED of her power

5 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Her position as Lady of Winterfell hasn't changed and the Lord of Lady of Winterfell remains the de facto leader of the North regardless of who is in charge at Kings Landing.

He stripped her of her power as the prettiest girl in the story. 🤦‍♀️

No seriously, that's what this entire fanficcy plot boils down to. There can only be One Special Girl, validated by the Most Relevant White Man and by "choosing" Dany over Sansa, Jon has diminished Sansa's narrative worth.

Heck, the writers literally had Sansa bring it up in the guise of "snark".