Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[NoWillToResist]

 

Sort of want to see a historical flash back to one of the successful, loving, Targaran brother/sister marriages just to compare. Could the public stand a story about an healthy relationship incest couple who were not evil and did good.

 

Well, the Jaime/Cersei thing isn't just marrying a sibling though...they're TWINS. Heh, I wonder if they could argue that it's like masturbation and thus not immoral.... ;)

[Constantinople]

Perhaps Tywin shouldn't have taught Jaime to read. It would have at least prevented Jaime from constantly moping about that damned Book of Kuhniggets.
 

I have lost track a little bit of which is the point every one of you is trying to make. :)

That Jaime is an evil, bad person who should be toasted like a marshmallow over a camp fire and then turned into a dragon s'more.

Hearing no objections, the motion carries. :)
 

In any case, in my opinion, regardless of whether Jaime considers Cercei capable of murdering Tyrion (since forever or realized just during season 4, in whichever moment of season 4) and regardless of whether Jaime thinks that Cercei lied during the trial or that Cercei believes Tyrion to be guilty or not, Jaime still having sex with Cercei doesn´t seem a contradiction to me. Nor does it throw a black spot on his character.
 
Because: 1. Jaime has loved Cercei all his life and you cannot end a love like this so easily...

No doubt, but since there doesn't appear to be a Cersei equivalent of a nicotine patch, Jaime needs to go cold turkey.
 

Cercei is a mean, cruel person. Jaime is not.

Cersei is much meaner and crueler than Jaime, or just about anyone else in Game of Thrones, but Jaime can be mean and cruel:

 

• pushing Bran out the window
• murdering his cousin
• taunting Catelyn Stark that he was more honorable than Ned because Jaime was faithful to one woman

 

Jaime has been less arrogant since Locke chopped off Jaime's hand, but many bullies are when they no longer have the means to bully someone.

 

Constantinopole, I am not arguing that Jaime and Cercei are a bad thing. I agree with you on that. I was, however, under the impression that we were talking about whether Jaime sleeping with Cercei in episode 10, after the whole Tyrion stuff was 1. a contradiction to other actions of Jaime in season 4 ; 2. a regress in the evolution of his character. I say No to both things, for the time being. I would see this as a black spot on Jaime´s character only if in season 5 she asks him to do bad things and he obeys and/or he continues to give in and have sex with her throughout season 5 despite her expected-to-be crazy actions. But I expect a sort of push and pull at the beginning of season 5 and then a crush of their relationship. And I think the basis for that has been set in this season 4.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Conan Troutman]

Cersei is much meaner and crueler than Jaime, or just about anyone else in Game of Thrones, but Jaime can be mean and cruel:

 

• pushing Bran out the window
• murdering his cousin
• taunting Catelyn Stark that he was more honorable than Ned because Jaime was faithful to one woman

 

I wouldn't describe that as mean and cruel. Cold and heartless, for sure, but not mean and cruel, since he didn't seem to get any pleasure out of it (at least the first two, and the latter is pretty much a case of jaywalking in that context...). He isn't someone who strikes me as sadistic or petty like his sister.

 

While I'm not on the Jamie bandwaggon in any way (although he's certainly one of the most interesting characters), I do hope he succeeds when he's set out to act like a decent human being every once in a while.  And I do wonder how that twincest thing will evolve when/if Cersei finds out he freed Tyrion, who then promptly killed her daddy. It would be more interesting if it was Jamie who ultimately ends the relationship, but the initial push might have to come from Cersei.

[bluvelvet]

Actually I'm wondering if Jaime is about to become a father again. He's had two sexual encounters with Cersei and I doubt they used protection. Also this time they don't have her marriage to Robert as a coverup.

[Indi]

Cersei is much meaner and crueler than Jaime, or just about anyone else in Game of Thrones, but Jaime can be mean and cruel:

 

• pushing Bran out the window
• murdering his cousin
• taunting Catelyn Stark that he was more honorable than Ned because Jaime was faithful to one woman

 

Jaime has been less arrogant since Locke chopped off Jaime's hand, but many bullies are when they no longer have the means to bully someone.

 

Don't forget:

 

• Raping his twin sister.

 

The difference between the Jaime and Cersei is one of degree, in my opinion. Jaime lacks that brewing resentment, that drives Cersei, but both can be callous, when it's convenient for them and they also can be caring to those they choose to love or respect. The fact that he still wants to be with a woman he considers hateful (his words before the rape), a woman who did her best to have his beloved brother killed, doesn't tell me anything good about his character. 

[BlackberryJam]

As to the "raping his twin" allegation, no matter how the scene looked to us as viewers, Cersei was not portrayed as a victim of rape after that scene.  Yes, it was shot poorly, but bad direction does not equal rape.  Cersei is the one manipulating Jaime with sex in Episode 10.  So, let's take that one off the table.  Heh, table.

 

In the grand scheme of GoT, there are probably...2 characters (of the ones that get real screen time) who aren't completely awful people?  Yeah, I'm going with two.  Sam and Brienne.  Every single other character is morally gray and should probably be toasted like a marshmallow.  When the White Walkers are better parents than pretty much every single parent in Westeros, singling out Jaime for bad behavior is pretty silly.

 

Jaime, unlike most of the other characters, has done good.  If we are looking at it like a toasty marshmallow checkbook, Jaime has serious positives on his side.  He saved Brienne from rape.  He saved Brienne from a bearpit.  He saved King's Landing from Aerys.  He offered to pimp himself out for his brother.  He ultimately released his brother.  No matter that some of those things might have had personal positives, he still did good things.

 

And what's really so awful about taunting the woman who is holding you captive and who has hit you in the head with a rock?  Honestly, taunting your captors counts in Jaime's favor.  Especially taunting her with what she and he believes is the truth.  Is Catelyn somehow to be protected from comments about her husband's fidelity?  What makes her such a special snowflake?  This woman started a war based on the word of a PIMP.  Mocking is the least of what she deserves.

 

So motion found frivolous.  Summarily dismissed.  Costs to poster.

[Gordon Stephen]

Yeah, Jaime Lannister is really awesome !!

Specially his costume all the trend is here (http://goo.gl/rE867v)

[Lady S.]

Actually I'm wondering if Jaime is about to become a father again. He's had two sexual encounters with Cersei and I doubt they used protection. Also this time they don't have her marriage to Robert as a coverup.

It kinda annoys me that the series hasn't mentioned herbal abortifacients/contraception, but surely Cersei would know better than to have another incest spawn out of any wedlock. Jaime did tell Loras that Cersei would murder any Tyrell baby "long before he drew his first breath" which seems to indicate abortion is a known possibility. I'm not sure what the thoughts on abortion would be for the women choosing in Westeros or those in our own pre-modern world, but it feels likely enough that Jaime and Cersei wouldn't think of it as equal to infanticide. 

 

Perhaps Tywin shouldn't have taught Jaime to read. It would have at least prevented Jaime from constantly moping about that damned Book of Kuhniggets.

Or maybe Tywin only thought he succeeded in teaching Jaime how to read, and all these scenes in the Kingsguard offices poor Jaime's just been struggling like Davos to understand the word kuhniggets and read his page. That's why he needed Brienne to read it out for him. 

 

Well, the Jaime/Cersei thing isn't just marrying a sibling though...they're TWINS. Heh, I wonder if they could argue that it's like masturbation and thus not immoral.... ;)

I feel like masturbation is probably close to how Cersei thinks of it, fucking the perfect male version of herself. Jaime might like thinking he'd make a pretty girl, but he doesn't really need a female version of himself, so for him Cersei being his other half has a deeper meaning, the connotations we might think of of a partner and soulmate. This otherworldly affinity is all in Jaime's head, but it's the reason he's willing to forgive Cersei almost anything as long as they're happy together. I think the other big difference between them is their thoughts on other people outside of their immediate family, Jaime's are something like "Why bother? The world is full of injustice, it's not my fault. No one can do everything right so trying to be a true knight is pointless. No matter what I do my father or Ned Stark will judge me harshly. I'll just focus on swordfighting and loving my sister.", whereas Cersei would be more likely thinking "What? Care about other people? People who are not maleCersei or my children? Other people should be caring more about me."

[fantique]

That reminds me of the Emmy conversation with the main cast and D&D + GRRM. Lena talked about how she sees Cersei as wanting to be Jaime. I understood it as she should have been the male twin since she cared more about all the things the elder make of a noble family should care about.

[bluvelvet]

That reminds me of the Emmy conversation with the main cast and D&D + GRRM. Lena talked about how she sees Cersei as wanting to be Jaime. I understood it as she should have been the male twin since she cared more about all the things the elder make of a noble family should care about.

So essentially Cersei is sleeping with herself?

 

just joking..

[fantique]

So essentially Cersei is sleeping with herself?

 

just joking..

Was there ever any doubt of that? LOLs.

Wouldn't it be funny if during one of their sex scenes there was a zoom in on Jaime's eyes and you see Cersei staring at her reflection?

[Avaleigh]

Fantique, I'm at the grocery store right now and your comment just made me LOL here in line to the point where I got a curious glance from the lady in front of me.

I'm pretty sure that Tyrion calls them both out on the mirror masturbatory side of their relationship. Agreed too with those who think this is more the case for Cersei than Jaime. I think Jaime's love for Cersei is actually one of the purest and most absolute loves in the series . Taking away the incest for a moment and just seeing them as two people involved in a decades long affair, I see Jaime as someone who has sacrificed for Cersei again and again with little to no gain for himself apart from being the closest person in her life.

Jaime gave up Casterly Rock, his inheritance, his father's respect, his role as a father and his relationship with his children, the freedom of making his own sexual choices without being accused of breaking his vows, etc.

Then there's the fact of his sexual loyalty to Cersei. Sick and twisted as it may be, I thought the moment when Jaime turns down Pia showed a lot about the depth of his love for Cersei. The guy hasn't had sex in over a year, he admits he's tempted, he knows Cersei would never find out, but when he thinks about doing it, he tells himself, no, I already have a woman. As I said once over at twop, apart from Ned I can't imagine any of the other male characters displaying that sort of sexual loyalty to one person. Maybe book Loras. I can't think of many others.

[Lady S.]

Jaime gave up Casterly Rock, his inheritance, his father's respect, his role as a father and his relationship with his children, the freedom of making his own sexual choices without being accused of breaking his vows, etc.

But how much did he ever want any of that? The part in 4.01 where Jaime tells Tywin he doesn't want Casterly Rock or a wife and children felt very true to Jaime's character to me. The conflict with Tywin would be a hassle for him ever since he joined the Kingsguard, but it was always about not wanting Tywin's dream for him. I think being with Cersei and being a swordfighting knight was all Jaime really wanted from life. Cersei's marriage to Robert was unpleasant for him because his "other half" was the wife of a man who didn't even respect or like her, but I don't think it really hurt him too much not to raise his children with Cersei. And though the honor of being a Kingsguard once meant something, I wonder how much he ever really cared about being called an oathbreaker for openly having sex with any other woman. I feel like the intent there is the same as the Night's Watch about taking no wife and having no children, but only someone like Ser Barristan would care about staying celibate for life, I don't see Jaime as ever being that pure of a knight.

 

I feel like his feelings about his kids are probably the minimum for a man who never really wanted children but knows he sired some and they'll be raised never knowing he's their father. He's not that much of a cold-hearted bastard so it's not that they mean nothing to him, but he wasn't the one who wanted them and I don't think there's much abiding parental love there, and he really is more Uncle Jaime and only their father in a sperm sense. I would like to see more of Jaime with Tommen in s5 though, after their little bit before Septgate happened. Given how possessive Jaime is and how he talked about Cersei never having any Tyrell babies, I doubt he'd have the same renewed commitment to being a Kingsguard if Joff and Tommen really were Robert's sons, since he never had any intention of guarding Robert with everything he had. I liked Jaime and Cersei both running to Joff to watch him die, because it reminded me of Cersei telling Sansa how Jaime fought to be there during Joff's birth, but that story was about him being there for Cersei, not surprisingly since their mother died in childbirth. The significance of Cersei's birthing his baby was probably only that a black haired beauty would be a living reminder that she was another man's wife, and give him another reason to be bitter about Robert. Whatever bitterness he felt about Robert being the de facto father of his children was general bitterness about he and Cersei being forced to hide their love, I don't think there's much sorrow over all his missed time with them when Robert was alive.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

I think Jaime regrets not being a father to his children particularly with Tommen and Myrcella. In his POV several times he thinks about this and about how he at least wants to be honest with them about it all. I also sensed regret on his part for allowing them to believe their father was Robert. I also got the vibe that show Jaime is going to try to be a father to Tommen.

When Joffrey was born it's true that Jaime attended the birth mainly for the sake of Cersei, but it's also true that he wanted to hold Joffrey but Cersei didn't want him to because she thought it would be suspicious and that it would be exactly the sort of mistake that could get them all killed.

When Jaime is thinking about Joffrey's death he thinks to himself that he and Cersei can have another son together, openly, and acts like he won't care what people think. To me the implication was that he wanted to marry Cersei, have another kid if she wanted and they'd try to do it "right" this time without all of the lies and deception.

Re Tywin's respect, Jaime's attendance while Tywin was lying in state told me a lot as to how he feels/felt about Tywin I even think show Jaime wants his respect on some level.

All of Tywin's children craved that validation and respect IMO. Jaime might have easily had it but for the choices he made.

As far as the wife/children/Casterly Rock conversation with Tywin, I didn't think that Jaime was so much objecting to those things so much as he was objecting to those things without Cersei in the picture.

When he proposes to Cersei it's a picture of life at Casterly Rock that he presents. He asks her why Casterly Rock isn't enough for Tommen [as opposed to the Iron Throne] and Cersei just thinks what he's suggesting sounds crazy.

I think Jaime would have been fine with being the eventual Lord of Casterly Rock if he hadn't equated it with being permanently/mostly separated from Cersei.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I think Jaime regrets not being a father to his children particularly with Tommen and Myrcella. In his POV several times he thinks about this and about how he at least wants to be honest with them about it all. I also sensed regret on his part for allowing them to believe their father was Robert. I also got the vibe that show Jaime is going to try to be a father to Tommen.

When Joffrey was born it's true that Jaime attended the birth mainly for the sake of Cersei, but it's also true that he wanted to hold Joffrey but Cersei didn't want him to because she thought it would be suspicious and that it would be exactly the sort of mistake that could get them all killed.

When Jaime is thinking about Joffrey's death he thinks to himself that he and Cersei can have another son together, openly, and acts like he won't care what people think. To me the implication was that he wanted to marry Cersei, have another kid if she wanted and they'd try to do it "right" this time without all of the lies and deception.

This is a lot of book talk but ok, Jaime

being jealous of baby Joffrey for spending time with Cersei's boobs and stealing her attention felt pretty telling about him as a father to me, he thinks about that in conjunction with not being too bothered about not holding Joffrey so I believe he really wasn't that bothered. When he hears Joff died he can't even picture his son's face, only Cersei's. And wanting a replacement right away sounds like a more appropriate response to a pet dying imo, and I'm not sure that was only about thinking Joff had it coming. The only time he thinks of his children prior to that was fantasizing about marrying Myrcella to Joffrey to bring back Targ-style sibling marriage. He does want to get to know them in AFFC/ADWD, but he never thinks regretfully of all his lost time with them and the focus is always on getting the twincest out in the open more than being the happy family they never were before. So I feel his problem with their believing Robert was their father is more part of his general bitterness about having to lie about his and Cersei's love than a wish to be able to be a father.

Of course he wants to be a family with Cersei because that's what Cersei wants but it doesn't mean he wants parenthood for himself.

Cersei dreams in AFFC of being married to Jaime with Joffrey still alive, the closest Jaime comes is that bit about marrying Joffers to Myrcella,

his fantasies of life with Cersei always center around being with Cersei. Just like their show scene where he wants them to be the only two people in the world, with nary a thought of their 3 children. He knows he has some primal duty toward the children he sired with the love of his life, but that doesn't mean he wanted them in the first place or really has a desire to raise any children. I agree that Jaime wasn't objecting to Casterly Rock, marriage and children for their own sakes, but I think there's a difference between not objecting to something and actively wanting it. Tyrion wants to be Lord of Casterly Rock with children of his own, Jaime's desires are all about Cersei.

 

As for Tywin's respect, when the man was alive Jaime never craved his respect the way Tyrion and Cersei did, probably because he was the favored son and Tywin's version of respect was more of a burden to him, though Tywin's disapproval could get to him as seen in Tywin's intro in 1.07. I actually think part of Jaime's insistence on Cersei as his one and only is about a refusal to grow up, he and Cersei were one unit as young children and never wanted to fully sever that. Jaime had no real ambition beyond being a knight and he'd rather be Cersei's man than Tywin's, which probably made for an easier life where his biggest responsibility was killing people who were a danger to their love. I see his journey after being released by Catelyn as more about becoming his own man than becoming a good man. When he decides to join the Kingsguard, iirc he

mentions that Tywin will never consent but has no problem with doing so without Tywin's permission. 

Jaime was fine with letting the future of House Lannister rest on Tyrion, even though Tywin never wanted that, he actually walks away smiling after Tywin tells him "a one-handed man with no family needs all the help he can get". A man who is happy about his father knowing he carried on a treasonous affair with his sister, making the family legacy a lie, was probably never too concerned with disappointing his father. Specifically about joining the Kingsguard as a teenager, there's no sign that Jaime was bothered by the possibility of losing Tywin's respect. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

being jealous of baby Joffrey for spending time with Cersei's boobs and stealing her attention felt pretty telling about him as a father to me,

I'm not sure this makes him different from any other father in the history of humanity, really.

[Lady S.]

I should say it's telling that that's his only real thought about Joffrey's birth, since it's what Jaime doesn't think about his children that really says something about him as a father i.e if he lamented this sacrifice some hint of that should have been shown. He didn't like anything about Cersei being another man's wife and the mother of her husband's children, but it doesn't automatically follow that he wished he could be a father in truth instead of just an uncle, and felt he was missing out on quality time. Tyrion cared more about those children than Jaime did though he really is just their uncle instead of their uncle/father, and Jaime did live with them their entire lives so if anything Tyrion had less chance to spend time with them. His fantasies of marrying Cersei don't include the joy of bringing up little Cerseis and Jaimes.

 

I've reread the chapter in question online since Septgate, so I guess I'll just copy the relevant text in spoiler tags, italics mine. 

Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy's face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei's. She will be in mourning, her hair in disarray and her eyes red from crying, her mouth trembling as she tries to speak. She will cry again when she sees me, though she'll fight the tears. His sister seldom wept but when she was with him. She could not stand for others to think her weak. Only to her twin did she show her wounds. She will look to me for comfort and revenge. .... Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. "How would it look?" his sister warned him when the women finally left them. "Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him." Jaime yielded with hardly a fight. The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts. Robert was welcome to him. And now he's dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I'll give her one . . . and this time I'll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

[Hecate7]

I still don't see how this makes him different from anybody else. I doubt Robert thought much about it, either, and he had sixteen kids! Ned and Stannis are pretty fatherly, but they seem highly unusual for men both in that world and in this one, because they do seem far more attached to their kids than to their wives. Not sure any man comes to a birth except for love of the woman.

 

And it's really not fair to judge Jaime purely by his reaction to Joffrey, who, after all, really is a monster. Tyrion didn't care more about Joffrey, he just had to interact with him a lot more. Jaime simply had no reason to interact with or get attached to any of the kids.

 

Jealousy of the kids is a reaction I hear from men all the time---some new father online is always writing in about wanting to sleep on the roof or leave the family, out of jealousy of the new baby. I think it's probably the more genuine reaction from men, and the other stuff is learned behavior. There's even a Robin Williams routine about the breast thing.

 

re-quoting with different emphasis:

Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy's face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei's. She will be in mourning, her hair in disarray and her eyes red from crying, her mouth trembling as she tries to speak. She will cry again when she sees me, though she'll fight the tears. His sister seldom wept but when she was with him. She could not stand for others to think her weak. Only to her twin did she show her wounds. She will look to me for comfort and revenge. .... Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. "How would it look?" his sister warned him when the women finally left them. "Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him." Jaime yielded with hardly a fight. The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts. Robert was welcome to him. And now he's dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I'll give her one . . . and this time I'll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I agree with you , Hecate7. I also disagree that Jaime's fantasy is only about life with Cersei. I thought he was demonstrating that this time around he'd like to be able have another child with Cersei and this time he wouldn't let the opinions of others keep him from holding his kid and openly being a father.

The scene of Joffrey's birth suggests a man who wanted to hold his child but was told that he shouldn't for all of their sakes if he truly cares for them. He yielded quickly because Cersei's argument made sense but it isn't as though he didn't attempt to object and IMO he wanted to object because he would have wanted to be a father if it hadn't meant upsetting the entire apple cart. The way Cersei says she thinks Jaime is about to moon over him suggests to me that he was excited before Cersei splashed cold water over that idea and told him to get realistic.

[lawless]

The scene of Joffrey's birth suggests a man who wanted to hold his child but was told that he shouldn't for all of their sakes if he truly cares for them

I think this is true, and demonstrative of the way that the need for secrecy because their relationship was so taboo probably affected many of Jaime's choices, and insulated him from many normal, maturing experiences that he might otherwise have had, which might have made him a better guy sooner, if things had been different.  He made his own choices of course, so I am not exempting him from responsibility for that, but I think it's appropriate to acknowledge that he began the forbidden, secret, incestuous love affair with Cersei when they were just teens/kids, and while they might have grown out of it under other circumstances, unfortunately their lives unfolded in a way so as to reinforce their love affair.  Cersei was married off to Robert when she was very young and still enthralled with Jaime, and promptly came to despise Robert (as he was apparently hopelessly devoted to his dead fiancé Lyanna and otherwise a flawed husband), but because she was the Queen, she could not carry on an affair without risking losing her head.  In those circumstances, it's hardly surprising that she stayed with her handsome, besotted brother, one of the few people and perhaps the only lover she could truly trust -- something their father inadvertently encouraged by urging them not to trust anyone outside the family.  Having Tywin as a father was probably also oppressive for all of his children, and in the absence of a mother, I would imagine the kids turned to each other for support in a way that is not the norm for siblings.  Anyway, Jaime was equally besotted with Cersei, and as a teen, became a member of the King's Guard, a unique position that gave him continued access to Cersei, and which, because of the attendant vows, precluded him from having a relationship or marriage with any other woman. 

 

Given the obsessive devotion Jaime has for Cersei, and her need for the outlet he provided and her more narcissistic love for him, maybe nothing would have changed their paths.  However, I can't help but think that if Robert had been a loving husband to Cersei and had not become an overweight, laughing on the outside- crying on the inside self-destructive drunk, and if Jaime not joined the King's Guard, and thus had been separated from a Cersei who he knew had married a loving husband for whom she had affection, that might have significantly cooled down, if not ended, their affair.  Jaime might have gone on to avail himself of some of the many women undoubtedly willing to throw themselves at him, and might perhaps have found a happy marriage, if Tywin wasn't insistent on marrying him to someone simply for mercenary reasons. 

 

But because of Cersei's marriage to Robert and Jaime's decision to join the King's Guard when they were both so young and when they had never had the chance to even consider loving someone else, they lost the opportunity to find love with someone else for the rest of their adult lives.  This reinforced their affair, on Cersei's side because Jaime was Cersei's only real outlet for sexual pleasure and affection (she doesn't seem to have taken up with Lancel until Robert was dead and/or the plot for Lancel to facilitate his hunting accident was in the works), and on Jaime's side because his vows and continued contact with a willing and needy Cersei prevented him from getting any distance to consider the relationship and open himself up to others.  That, combined with what I perceive to be Jaime's desire to run from Tywin's iron control and mercenary plans for all of their lives (which, while immature and irresponsible of Jaime in some respects, is also very understandable when your father is a fiercely intelligent, ruthless man who always sees his children's failings and painfully shames them about them). 

 

I also factor in the fact that once Jaime killed Aerys and became the Kingslayer, any dreams he had of earning the respect of his peers for knightly deeds of honor and glory -- dreams I very much think he did have when he was young -- were forever out of reach.  Sure, he was respected for his fighting skill, but no one would ever think of him the way they thought of Barristan Selmy.  Robert seemed to openly despise and deride him.  So what was left to give his life any meaning and joy?  Cersei.  The end result is that their crazy, forbidden, dangerous love affair was all both of them had, and for that reason, and also to justify behaviors that their peers reviled, they became more and more committed to it.  Jaime more so than Cersei, I think, because of the differences in their personalities, and also because Cersei got to be the Queen while Jaime was just a not-very-respected glorified body guard in a time of peace for a popular King, and Cersei was able to bond with and parent their children, but Jaime could not without exposing them. 

 

As a result, Jaime has done some appalling things in the service of that relationship, because the secrecy of the relationship is genuinely a matter of life and death, he's desperately attached to it, and it has become part of his very identity and sense of himself, but not because he's sadistic. I can't say the same for Cersei, she seems to be where Joffrey came by his sadistic tendencies.  Jaime has a lot to make up for -- but I like him because he's so very pretty . . . whoops!  I mean, I like him because I think he's never wanted to hurt others for the sake of hurting them, and I think he's trying to turn himself into an honorable man even if no one knows it but him and perhaps Brienne.**  Their relationship has enabled him to at least begin to glimpse that such a thing is possible, and worthwhile.  But he's still caught up with Cersei, and who wouldn't be after decades of what amounts to a secret marriage.  Divorce is rarely easy, and people often later feel that they didn't end things until long after they probably should have.  It's human, and I am rooting for him to pull away from her and work on becoming the better man I think he wanted to be when he was young, and that he has the potential to be if he tries.

 

** I have to pretend that the rape in the Sept just didn't happen, because it was so out of character given all else we've seen, and because the Director said that it became consensual in the end (not on the screen my friend, not on the screen), so I think that what was intended to be shown in that scene just wasn't what we were actually shown.  To resolve all of that craziness, I'm pretending it went differently and was not rape, even though that's definitely what my eyes were shown. 

Edited July 5, 2014 by lawless

[Lady S.]

And it's really not fair to judge Jaime purely by his reaction to Joffrey, who, after all, really is a monster. Tyrion didn't care more about Joffrey, he just had to interact with him a lot more. Jaime simply had no reason to interact with or get attached to any of the kids.

No, but Tyrion did care about Myrcella and Tommen more than Jaime did, though Jaime was the uncle who lived with them most of their lives, he was hardly a stranger to any of them and in fact would have had more time than Tyrion to at least be an uncle to them. That's what I meant by the term children. He and Tyrion were both in the 1.02 breakfast scene but it's Tyrion interacting with them. Yes, that's Jaime's only scene with any of them prior to s4, but he never once mentions any of them or gives any indication of thinking of them either. I'm not saying Jaime would have a deadbeat if allowed to be a father to them but I see no evidence he really wished he could get to know them better when Robert was alive. I think an attachment would be kinda necessary for that kind of wistfulness. Jaime had divorced himself from any of that and wrapped himself up in Cersei completely. I think the two-handed Jaime we met in s1 had given up on wanting anything else and really didn't have have much regret about that. If Tommen had died instead of Joff, Jaime probably would have had some grief if just of the well, that one was a sweet kid, what a shame sense, but the Walder Frey-pragmatic reaction of I can always have another would still come soon enough. But that's if Cersei wanted more kids/was in any position to have more without marrying another man (which she's not, even if sibling marriage was possible for non-Targs there's still the minor matter of their affair being treason, pretty hard to get together with Jaime on the up and up now and claim this is a new development and in no way means Tommen and Myrcella are bastards whose very conception was illegal), I don't think Jaime really wanted to have more kids instead of getting to know the ones he already had. He'd be starting from scratch right away but I don't think he really needed a true fresh start from infancy. Wanting to hold a baby is a natural enough thing but it doesn't necessitate wanting the full experience of parenthood and feeling a childless life is empty. If Cersei had been able to marry Jaime instead of Robert, I don't think Jaime would care much whether they didn't have kids, except that it's an expected duty of marriage to produce heirs.

 

If anyone's expecting Jaime to be as involved a father as Ned Stark it certainly isn't me, I'm just saying I don't think Jaime really wanted to be there for his kids the way Ned was and didn't feel he was missing out on quality time. And that's normal enough in a society that values fatherhood for the duty of producing heirs. Robert was a deadbeat to his bastards but he did try with Joffers on his deathbed and probably would have tried more if he had a wife he wanted and hadn't become a "crying on the inside, self-destructive drunk". Robert liked kids and being a deadbeat to his bastards had more to do with a short attention span when it came to their mothers and Robert's general laziness and moral cowardice. Ned remembers him

enjoying visiting Mya Stone as a child and he once tried to bring Mya to court but Cersei threatened to do her in

, by the time he's king and in his decline it was easy to just forget his bastards along with their mothers. I actually think a happily married Jaime and a happily married Robert would have similar feelings about fatherhood but the joy of spending time with children wouldn't be a top desire, as it wouldn't for most Westerosi husbands.

[lawless]

Robert liked kids and being a deadbeat to his bastards had more to do with a short attention span when it came to their mothers and Robert's general laziness and moral cowardice.

Heh, this, plus I think Cersei would have gone ballistic, and I think Tywin would also have weighed in, due to concerns over the impact on the Lannister reputation and hold on the throne through Joffrey etc... Though King, Robert did seem to feel he was set upon and beholden to the Lannisters hence his need for Ned as his Hand.

 

I agree that there hasn't been much to indicate that Jaime has had much interest in his kids or being a father, but as you say, that seems to be common for Westerosi Lords, and also, he and Cersei necessarily had to put a stop to that from the get go to avoid suspicion.  It was probably a lot safer not to let Jaime even try bonding with Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, lest his affection for them give hints that he was more than just their uncle. Interestingly, I did get a quiet, discrete "family unit" vibe in the breakfast scene with Cersei, Jaime, and the kids in S1E2.  I also noticed that now that Robert is dead, the Show made a point of Jaime putting a hand on Tommen's shoulder, inquiring as to how he was doing, and assuring him that he would be ok and that Jaime would see to it. 

 

I think Jaime would have been fine with being the eventual Lord of Casterly Rock if he hadn't equated it with being permanently/mostly separated from Cersei.

I think Jaime would have been very content to have become Lord of Casterly Rock if he could have married Cersei (and perhaps if he could have pawned off the boring administrative responsibilities onto Tyrion).  If Cersei had never been married to Robert and instead Jaime and Cersei had been allowed to marry, I think the character of Jaime's love for her would have been far less obsessive and destructive, because it would not have been so dangerous, restricted, and secret.  If Jaime had always been able to have been out in the open in his relationship with Cersei, it probably would have been a more normal relationship.  I also think he would have bonded with the kids and come to love them, if he had been able to do so openly, as their father.  

 

If their relationship had been open and accepted, the intense, white-hot, Romeo and Juliet type passion of stolen moments would probably have naturally cooled and calmed into something more like what Cat and Ned Stark had, and what most loving, longterm couples have.  Because their relationship never could be that due to the circumstances, it became obsessive and destructive.  Now that circumstances are changing due to Robert's death, Cersei and Jaime's separation, Jaime's meeting of Brienne, and the loss of Jaime's hand, the relationship seems to finally be changing too.

Edited July 5, 2014 by lawless

[Hecate7]

pushing Bran out the window

murdering his cousin

taunting Catelyn Stark that he was more honorable than Ned because Jaime was faithful to one woman

 

Pushing Bran out the window: had to do that. Didn't like it. Didn't enjoy it. Did it because if Bran ran to Ned Stark and told Ned what he had seen, it would have been all over for Jaime, Cersei, and the kids. Most importantly Cersei. I don't know what they do to adulteresses who betray the king with their own brothers and try to put those bastard usurpers on the throne, but it's probably not very nice. What do you think the odds of Bran Stark lying to his father for life, about the Lannisters, are? I wouldn't put money on it, let alone the lives of my pets, loved ones, etc...

 

Mudering his cousin: it's a prisoner's first duty to escape. He had to get home.

Plus it didn't happen in the books, and never would.

 

Taunting Catelyn: As has been pointed out, taunting is the least she deserves for being a class A idiot who started a war. BUT, that's not why he did it. She had hit him with a rock. He had the very realistic hope that if he kept taunting her, she would kill him with it, or even get a sword, before anyone had a chance to ask him about Cersei. Then they'd only have her word for it about him pushing Bran out the window, too. With him dead, the Starks would lose their bargaining position and the Lannisters would be free to swoop down at will, without worrying about what the Starks might do to Jaime.

 

 

Robert was a deadbeat to his bastards but he did try with Joffers on his deathbed and probably would have tried more if he had a wife he wanted and hadn't become a "crying on the inside, self-destructive drunk".

On his deathbed? Isn't that a case of too little, too late? Not having the wife you want is no excuse for treating your eldest like crap. But I think that I, too, would have thrown up my hands after that "unpleasantness with a cat." Knowing Joffrey and the threats he made to Tommen's cat, I'm guessing it was very unpleasant indeed. I'd have knocked out more than just his baby tooth.

 

I think Robert had a hidden soft side, a cat-loving, baby-loving, sentimental side. If Tommen had been the eldest instead of sociopathic Joffrey, I think Robert might not have given up. But Joffrey was always a murderous, sadistic creep.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I understand why Jaime felt he had to do that list of terrible things. I agree with Hecate7 but also want to say that in addition to Hecate's points about the taunting of Catelyn--I feel like a person would practically have to be made of stone or be frightened beyond measure to not want to call attention to that sort of hypocrisy under those circumstances. Ned gave him shit for his disloyalty and here Jaime is pointing out an area where he at least feels he's shown more honor than judgemental Ned. Catelyn is so self righteous at times that it didn't really bother me *that*much when it was thrown in her face. I was more shocked that he had the nerve than anything else.

Jaime gets points with me for attempting to make things right in his life even though that road opens up all sorts of sacrifice, difficulty, and danger. He has a lot on his plate right now but he's trying to address all of the big stuff. Robert OTOH just gave up and basically coasted until he fell off a cliff.

I like that Jaime doesn't think it's too late to attempt to be some sort of father to the two remaining kids. Robert doesn't seem like he ever tried with Tommen and Myrcella and he doesn't have the excuse that they're little monsters like Joffrey. I've also never got the impression that Joffrey turned out the way he did simply because of Cersei. Obviously Cersei contributed to Joffrey becoming a little asshole, but I honestly think it was a combination of two bad parents, unlimited privilege, and a sick nature at heart that would have presented itself on some level if even the Starks had been his parents. IMO the main difference would have been that Joffrey Stark would have taken more trouble to hide his sadistic nature to those powerful enough to keep him in check. Myrcella spent a lot of time with her mother and she turned out fine. Meanwhile we have Joffrey committing one of his worst acts because

he thought it was what Robert would have wanted.

I feel that Robert putting Joffrey on ignore in addition to being a bad example of a human being was just as damaging as his awful human being of a mother allowing him to get away with so much terrible behavior.

It's interesting to compare Jaime with Robert. Robert would never have been in a position where he'd have to kill in order to stay alive keep an affair he was having a secret. It just wouldn't have happened. It also might be unfair to say so but I don't think Robert ever experienced a love as deep as the one Jaime has had for Cersei. I don't think Robert has ever really been in a position where he's willingly sacrificed or put himself out for the love of another person. I have no problem believing that Robert could shut his eyes and push some kid out of a window if it suited his purpose, I just don't think he could ever have been in a position like that. When all is said and done if Robert could have simply pushed a button to snuff out the young lives of Viserys and Dany, I don't think he would have hesitated. Actually, I'm imagining if Robert had somehow come upon Viserys in the flesh with Viserys at the age at Bran was at his accident and I think I feel like he'd order somebody else to kill him. Jaime IMO though is more like Ned in terms of going to do it himself even when he has reservations.

[lawless]

But I think that I, too, would have thrown up my hands after that "unpleasantness with a cat." Knowing Joffrey and the threats he made to Tommen's cat, I'm guessing it was very unpleasant indeed.

I'm sure Cersei complained bitterly about Robert's "brutality" toward Joffrey over the unpleasantness with the cat to Jaime, but if Jaime knew what ever it was that actually happened, I wonder if he kinda understood the reason Robert reacted the way he did.  Which is not to say that hitting a kid hard enough to knock out a baby tooth is ok, but by Westerosi standards it probably isn't that out of school, for the King, under the circumstances.  (After all, the last King had people's tongues cut out and other people burned alive, so . . . ).  I wonder what the Starks would have done with a kid like Joffrey.  Watched him very carefully, I guess, and prayed to the old gods and the new that he wouldn't do anything too terrible.  But anyway, we saw what he was like and I can't hold it against Jaime for not being attached to him.  Since Joffrey was the oldest, that may have also caused Jaime to further distance himself from the other kids -- though it certainly looked like he was planning to be a very involved uncle to Tommen. 

[Calamity Jane]

I happened to be watching The Fellowship of the Ring, and something I've been thinking was confirmed -- the guy who plays Jamie Lannister looks so much like Sean Bean they could be brothers.  It's astonishing!

Edited May 10, 2015 by SilverStormm
Moved from episode thread.

[BlackberryJam]

Oh...the Jaime thread!  Can we talk about how that new leather coat he's wearing? He looks hot as fuck in that.

 

Interesting, in all of his scenes with Cersei, he is clean shaven, in Kingsguard armor, looking uptight and uncomfortable.

 

He gets out of KL and he's back to scruff and sexiness.  Ah, costuming, hair and makeup, way not to be subtle.

[Lady S.]

I happened to be watching The Fellowship of the Ring, and something I've been thinking was confirmed -- the guy who plays Jamie Lannister looks so much like Sean Bean they could be brothers.  It's astonishing!

OOoo, were you also watching it on TNT yesterday? Honestly, I think I even remember Ned's stringy wig having a very slight golden tinge during their fight scene in 1.05.

 

So, using the golden hand to catch a sword was cool, but I still wanna see him get to smack someone in the face with it.

[BlackberryJam]

Oh hell yeah, he needs to bitchslap someone talking bad about his wench. Bronn seems a likely candidate.

I am really loving what they are doing with Jaime. He has his snark back, his hot back, he's questioning his relationship with Cersei and he's looking fine while doing it.

[Lady S.]

Eh, I don't think Bronn is likely to shit talk Brienne after being present for the Jaime/Brienne goodbye scene. He's an insolent rogue but he also knows how his bread is buttered. He never really insulted Shae or any of of Tyrion's other associates.

 

I was disappointed by Jaime's resolve to turn the half-man or the quarter-man, but I doubt he could bring himself to follow through if it came down to it, though I do think his anger is sincere. (He certainly has no reason I can see to lie to Bronn about it.)

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think Jaime is resolved to do anything. I think he made the comment about Tyrion the way anyone says "I'll kill him" when they are angry. It was in character for Jaime, who says stupid stuff all the time and who had just gotten screwed over by Tyrion twice, when Jaime was trying to save him.

[Hecate7]

I don't think Jaime is resolved to do anything. I think he made the comment about Tyrion the way anyone says "I'll kill him" when they are angry. It was in character for Jaime, who says stupid stuff all the time and who had just gotten screwed over by Tyrion twice, when Jaime was trying to save him.

 

I think he believes himself. Robb Stark had to ride against the king himself to avenge his father's death. This isn't just a matter of being angry, this is about Jaime's honor. He has to kill his father's murderer.

 

He loves Tyrion, but he probably will kill him if they meet again, unless someone can present a very good reason not to that outweighs Jaime's honor. If Tyrion saves Jaime's life first, or the life of someone else in their immediate family, that might divert Jaime. But Jaime is actually stuck her. He has to kill Tyrion. He freed Tyrion because he believed Tyrion was incapable of Joffrey's murder, and Tyrion immediately turned around and killed their father. That was a terrible way to repay Jaime for saving his life.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I think he believes himself. Robb Stark had to ride against the king himself to avenge his father's death. This isn't just a matter of being angry, this is about Jaime's honor. He has to kill his father's murderer.

He loves Tyrion, but he probably will kill him if they meet again, unless someone can present a very good reason not to that outweighs Jaime's honor. If Tyrion saves Jaime's life first, or the life of someone else in their immediate family, that might divert Jaime. But Jaime is actually stuck her. He has to kill Tyrion. He freed Tyrion because he believed Tyrion was incapable of Joffrey's murder, and Tyrion immediately turned around and killed their father. That was a terrible way to repay Jaime for saving his life.

Technically since he is a kingsguard he's loyalties should be only to the king and he's not honorbound to revenge his father's murder. We've seen him put family above kingsguard duties before but if he's getting more serious about his vows he's less likely to do so again.

[Lady S.]

I think Jaime's tendency to try to kill anyone who threatens his family is more about shared Lannister family pride than anything, even if they hate each other they're still about protecting the family. (Immediate family obviously, distant cousins who just happen to bear the family name don't really count.) I think Jaime would have been a lot more conflicted about Cersei vs. Tyrion in s4 if Tyrion actually had murdered Joffrey right in front of them. They know for a fact he did murder Tywin though, after Jaime spent most of s4 defending him as not one to murder family and then saved his life right before Tyrion did the deed. Cersei's reminder at the side of Tywin's corpse that Jaime was his golden son certainly didn't help his guilt and anger over what Tyrion did. It already sounded like he was trying to talk like Tywin's heir going on about protecting the dynasty Tywin built for them from those outside wanting a piece of it.

[clady]

I've been wondering how they know Tyrion killed Tywin? I know they do but what makes them so obviously sure. Did I miss an explanation? Is it just because he was murdered the night Tyrion escaped?

[Lady S.]

I've been wondering how they know Tyrion killed Tywin? I know they do but what makes them so obviously sure. Did I miss an explanation? Is it just because he was murdered the night Tyrion escaped?

He also murdered the lover who betrayed him, no one else had reason to kill both. I don't really see any mystery to Tywin's murder, the only other possible suspect is Varys, who I doubt would have bothered with Shae. If there was room for doubt in this particular assassination, Jaime might still be defending Tyrion to lessen his own guilt.

[Hecate7]

He also murdered the lover who betrayed him, no one else had reason to kill both. I don't really see any mystery to Tywin's murder, the only other possible suspect is Varys, who I doubt would have bothered with Shae. If there was room for doubt in this particular assassination, Jaime might still be defending Tyrion to lessen his own guilt.

 

Anyone could have done it, and I did expect Jaime to go there first. Tywin Lannister had plenty of enemies, and Tyrion going free would have been just the cover one of them needed....except who but Jaime and Varys knew Tyrion had been freed? Tyrion made it very obvious he was the one who did it, and his manner of doing it unfortunately puts paid to all the arguments about why he didn't kill Joffrey, as well.

[clady]

I don't think there's a mystery either I was just wondering if I had missed their explanation.

[Hecate7]

Tyrion's thing is getting falsely accused, but now that he's actually done a murder no one is going to believe he was innocent of the other things he's been accused of.

[bluvelvet]

You know, Jaime is my favorite character but he's done nothing all season. I know why he went to Dorne but I don't see the point.

I hope he cuts his loyalty to Cersei soon, I do wonder what kind of man he would have been if he hadn't been enthralled with Cersei's magical vajayjay for the past 20 years.

[Constantinople]

I truly don't understand the alleged redemption arc for Book Jaime to date.  Not treating Brienne like shit and breaking-up with your sister/girlfriend for cheating on you does nothing to acknowledge or rectify the crimes that he and his family have committed.

Therefore, I don't see how Jaime's character has been ruined by the TV portrayal.

[dargosmydaddy]

On 6/15/2016 at 9:16 AM, Constantinople said:

Not treating Brienne like shit and breaking-up with your sister/girlfriend for cheating on you does nothing to acknowledge or rectify the crimes that he and his family have committed.

I think he went beyond "not treating Brienne like shit." He lies for her to try to keep her from getting raped, and insists on going back for her, thereby saving her life from the bear. For the first time, he does things for someone else that are not beneficial to him/ his family. And its been awhile since I read the books, but I thought we got at least some self-reflection/ character growth from him over the course of his narration. His book break with Cersei also showed change/ growth... the fact that he was willing to go against Cersei (if covertly) to free Tyrion, and then believe Tyrion about Cersei and Lancel, etc.Meanwhile, show Jaime showed promise (his relationship with Brienne, freeing Tyrion), but has now reverted back to just doing whatever Cersei tells him to do, rather than showing any thought/ agency of his own.

Does book Jamie's growth rectify/ negate all the awful things he's done? No, definitely not. But I do think book Jamie is more interesting and has more depth, which probably equates to more likable. (At least in a fictional character sense...I tend to hold fictitious people to different likability standards than real people...)

[TudorQueen]

By the end of this episode, I was convinced that Jaime will not survive to the end of the series.

[Constantinople]

On 6/17/2016 at 4:43 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

I think he went beyond "not treating Brienne like shit." He lies for her to try to keep her from getting raped, and insists on going back for her, thereby saving her life from the bear.

The only reason Brienne was in danger from being raped and later being eaten by a bear was due to Jaime's attempted escape.  Brienne was taking Jaime to King's Landing and Jaime wanted to escape from her so he could go to...King's Landing.

So no brownie points to Jaime from me for that. 

[BlackberryJam]

Jaime could save a gaggle of pregnant nuns from a flaming flaying Ramsay while carrying the Olympic torch and saving a nation and you still wouldn't give him brownie points.

But that's what I love about Jaime. He doesn't want anyone's brownie points. You could offer them to him, and at minimum he would look at you with disdain. Jaime doesn't have to be your definition of good to be people's favorite character.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Jaime could save a gaggle of pregnant nuns from a flaming flaying Ramsay while carrying the Olympic torch and saving a nation and you still wouldn't give him brownie points.

1. I think you mean of a gaggle of Silent Sisters or Septas
2. Silent Sisters / Septas shouldn't be pregnant, so some sort of punishment is in order
3. Were Jaime to interfere with that, it would be yet another arbitrary exercise of Lannister power, which is the antithesis of ordered liberty.
4. Given the relative paucity of Silent Sisters / Septas in the North, it's not likely a gaggle of them would be in danger from Ramsay
5. "flaming...Ramsay" - Ramsay may be a little flamboyant, and possibly bi, but I don't think he's a flamer.
6. "Olympic torch" / "saving a nation" - You may discuss hypothetical Jaime if you wish, I choose not to

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

But that's what I love about Jaime. He doesn't want anyone's brownie points. You could offer them to him, and at minimum he would look at you with disdain.

Quote

 

Tywin: You spend too much time worrying about what other people think of you.

Jaime: I could care less what anyone thinks of me.

Tywin: That's what you want people to think of you.

Jaime: It's the truth.

Tywin: When you hear them whispering "Kingslayer" behind your back doesn't it bother you?

Jaime: Of course it bothers me.

Tywin: The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep.

 

[BlackberryJam]

You're adorable, but let's talk about Jaime. He's so much more interesting and his actions never follow his words/thoughts, which people seem to miss entirely. Why is that? Even from his first POV chapter about wanting to kill Brienne, he instead saves by pulling her into the boat. Jaime's inner monologue is rarely a predictor of his actions. That's what makes him utterly fascinating. 

Over the years, I've gone back and forth on the valonqar issue, mostly confident that Jaime is not the valonqar because it would be so absolutely trite if he were. GRRM is pretty obvious in much of his writing, but Jaime as valonqar is about 4th grade level of complexity. I'm leaning towards Jaime not returning to KL until the place is ash, ruled by Dany, as much as you rule over ash.

I have been absolutely convinced that Jaime will meet Bran again, especially after Bran's flashbacks. I think there is so much unfinished business there.

[Constantinople]

When Walder Frey compares you to Walder Frey, you're really hitting the bottom of the barrel.

[Umbelina]

On 6/18/2016 at 9:57 PM, TudorQueen said:

By the end of this episode, I was convinced that Jaime will not survive to the end of the series.

I never thought he would. 

On 6/17/2016 at 1:43 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

I think he went beyond "not treating Brienne like shit." He lies for her to try to keep her from getting raped, and insists on going back for her, thereby saving her life from the bear. For the first time, he does things for someone else that are not beneficial to him/ his family. And its been awhile since I read the books, but I thought we got at least some self-reflection/ character growth from him over the course of his narration. His book break with Cersei also showed change/ growth... the fact that he was willing to go against Cersei (if covertly) to free Tyrion, and then believe Tyrion about Cersei and Lancel, etc.Meanwhile, show Jaime showed promise (his relationship with Brienne, freeing Tyrion), but has now reverted back to just doing whatever Cersei tells him to do, rather than showing any thought/ agency of his own.

Does book Jamie's growth rectify/ negate all the awful things he's done? No, definitely not. But I do think book Jamie is more interesting and has more depth, which probably equates to more likable. (At least in a fictional character sense...I tend to hold fictitious people to different likability standards than real people...)

Book Jamie honestly loves his sister and his children.  He sacrificed everything for her and for them.  It's not just sex, and it was certainly never rape.  The show utterly failed to address any of this, and the fact that there was almost no chemistry at all between the two actors also hurt things.  I blame Lena for that, as well as the horrible writing.  Cersei, who was always mad, but at least in the books, in the beginning really did love Jamie at the start had a much more complex and fascinating story than the show even tried to have. 

Jamie was, at heart, a profoundly honorable man, who had to make awful choices.  By the end, though he was always completely loyal to Cersei, he was a broken man, broken by his foolishness in the trust he had in his sister/lover.  He gave up everything for her, his inheritance, his chance to have his own children, to be honestly loved, instead of used and manipulated by this damaged and incredibly shallow, ruthless, manipulative, and horrible woman.  He fucked up his entire life for a romantic dream, and was deeply shattered and embarrassed by that.  She needed him so much when they were children, no mother, the stern father who didn't understand or support any of her gifts other than her exploitable beauty in a political marriage.  Jamie understood her hopes and dreams and they shared absolutely everything, he was her protector long before he ever took it on officially.

 

On 6/22/2016 at 7:05 AM, BlackberryJam said:

You're adorable, but let's talk about Jaime. He's so much more interesting and his actions never follow his words/thoughts, which people seem to miss entirely. Why is that? Even from his first POV chapter about wanting to kill Brienne, he instead saves by pulling her into the boat. Jaime's inner monologue is rarely a predictor of his actions. That's what makes him utterly fascinating. 

Over the years, I've gone back and forth on the valonqar issue, mostly confident that Jaime is not the valonqar because it would be so absolutely trite if he were. GRRM is pretty obvious in much of his writing, but Jaime as valonqar is about 4th grade level of complexity. I'm leaning towards Jaime not returning to KL until the place is ash, ruled by Dany, as much as you rule over ash.

I have been absolutely convinced that Jaime will meet Bran again, especially after Bran's flashbacks. I think there is so much unfinished business there.

I hope it's Jamie.  I didn't really care before as long as she died, hopefully in the most painful (but not tortured, we've had enough of that) way possible, and Jamie killing her would fulfill that emotional pain.  For both of them.

I get that twincest was a difficult subject, but damn if this show seriously failed at anything, they failed at this.

Cersei the loving mother?  Oh please...

Edited June 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[VCRTracking]

I'm going to predict next season the first time we see Jaime will be him visiting the aftermath of the destruction Cersei caused. The wreckage and the burned and injured civilians.

Edited July 1, 2016 by VCRTracking