The Paradise - General Discussion

[treeofdreams]

I am enjoying this series.  I think the interplay between Moray and Denise, Moray and Katherine, Weston and Katherine, Weston and everyone else, leaves us wondering how these relationships will play out.  Moray is jealous of Denise, Denise doesn't like being held back, temptation looms in the form of Ballantine and what he might do.  Is Weston's attempt at reconciliation with Katherine sincere, or another game?  Will Katherine's love for Flora be her undoing?  What are Weston's true intentions toward Denise - is he really her supporter now or is he just using her?

 

And seriously, WILL they NEVER address the question of Denise having to quit her job if she gets married??  (/broken record/)

[editorgrrl]

And seriously, WILL they NEVER address the question of Denise having to quit her job if she gets married??  (/broken record/)

 

I know, right? When the PBS promo monkeys showed Miss Audrey in the previouslies, I was hoping that Uncle Edmund was going to ask her to come work with him at his tailor shop—thereby modeling appropriate behavior for Moray & Denise.

[magdalene]

I don't like Moray and I don't like Denise with him. She deserves a man who isn't intimidated by her talent and drive.

[Brattinella]

What a vile, despicable, loathsome piece of crap Weston is!  GAH!

[LittleIggy]

What a vile, despicable, loathsome piece of crap Weston is!  GAH!

Oh, I know! He is using Flora as a weapon against Katherine and that is truly despicable. Whatever else Katherine is, she is a good mother to that little girl. Loved that Clara stood him up!

[Brattinella]

Go, Clara!  You can do better than that sadist son of a bitch!

[treeofdreams]

I wish we had some backstory about Katherine and Weston - how they met, why Katherine married him.  It seemed rather sudden, in terms of the story's timeline.

 

I suppose Flora might have been one of the reasons, but it would be nice to have more of the story.

[BusyOctober]

I know it's a tv show and not a reality program, but somethings really push the credibility limit. 

 

1) the hair do's - Clara & Denise have extremely intricate hair styles.  How would a lower class working girl get her hair all twisted and braided and curled into a perfect coif every day?  They show the girls with their hair down or in loose braids for bedtime.  Did women get up at 3am to start their hair regimen?  Katherine (and the very wealthy) had ladie's maids to style them and fuss over the hair, but Clara and Denise live in a tiny apartment, share a bathroom with God knows how many others and need to work by candle/gas light by themselves to get ready.  Silly, but details like this bug me.  It'd make more sense if they had neat buns or chignons.

 

2) All of Denise's ideas are great, sure.  But how does a store with a staff of less than 30 (I'm guessing- we never see more than 15 or so tertiary characters milling about) make all these fantabulous "shopper fantasies" come to life in 24 hours? And the idea of a ghost experience was cool but how was walking them through the whole store beneficial?  They kept them in place longer but they didn't really position items for sale along the way (except for the magazine). Plant related items from the story along the way, incorporate them into the tour ("These watches are just like the one Mr. X used at the depot!"  "Here is a replica of Miss Jane's evening gown!"  Then at the end of the tour there's a boutique with all the items with a cash register.  Can't escape the experience without passing through the Gift Shop!  But, the Paradise is happening long before the "Disney-fication" marketing strategy became standard.

[attica]

Clara & Denise have extremely intricate hair styles.  How would a lower class working girl get her hair all twisted and braided and curled into a perfect coif every day?

 

It was common in that day to use hair pieces to augment one's one tresses. So basically you put up your own hair, clip on the braids/twists, and go. Shop girls would be expected to have them, so as to mimic the upper classes they were trying to sell to.

[Former Nun]

I don't like Moray and I don't like Denise with him. She deserves a man who isn't intimidated by her talent and drive.

 

I don't even like the actor playing Moray...are he (the actor), the writers and the director lulling me into that opinion?

[treeofdreams]

At least Weston's evil machinations did some good!

 

Weston to Denise:  Moray is trying to hold you back, he is afraid you will outshine him.

Weston to Moray:  I wouldn't be surprised if some day Denise is running the Paradise instead of you.

 

That slap was rather satisfying.  Slapped the smug right out of Moray.  When will men learn that "possession" is not a good word to use about a woman?  I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

 

I like that Clara chose the photographer over Weston.  They seem to have re-written her character this season - last season she was desperate and rather pathetic, this season she is Mother Wisdom to everyone.  I like her better this way.  Last season's Clara probably would have gone with Weston.

 

Edited to add:  I know that back then women really were considered possessions, but good for Denise to stand up against that.  Moray really didn't know her if he thought she would be content with that designation.

Edited November 10, 2014 by treeofdreams

[magdalene]

Well, Weston is right - Moray is trying to hold Denise back and he is definitely afraid she will outshine him. She is already outshining him.

 

I am very conflicted watching Weston. The character is despicable but I have found the actor awesome ever since I saw him years ago in a series called THE STATE WITHIN. And I dislike Moray so much I want him to be crushed by Weston.

[Brattinella]

It looked (and sounded) like a TERRIFIC slap!  Bravo!  "My Little Champion", indeed.

[treeofdreams]

There is one thing I am confused about.  Weston told Katherine that Fenton, the guy Moray was plotting with to buy the Paradise, had confessed to him what Moray had been trying to do to cause trouble between Weston and Katherine.  I don't understand why Fenton would tell him that.  (Unless I misheard - that bit came and went by so fast.)  Obviously Weston was using that as another way to hurt Katherine.  But why would Fenton tell Weston about their scheme?

 

 

I am very conflicted watching Weston. The character is despicable but I have found the actor awesome ever since I saw him years ago in a series called THE STATE WITHIN. And I dislike Moray so much I want him to be crushed by Weston.

 

Maybe Weston and Moray can do each other in, in some poetic justice sort of way.  Or how about Denise takes them both out?

 

Weston (well, the actor) does have a beautiful voice.  And now I will have to look up The State Within...

[JudyObscure]

I can't stand Denise anymore.  I don't ever think it's cool for one person to hit another, particularly when his intentions were well meant.  It's not Moray's fault that he didn't get to go on the time machine trip that apparently took Denise to a 1972 consciousness raising meeting.  He loves his store and all the crap in it and he loves Denise even more than any of that.  That's all he was saying.  If we're going to go along with all the crass materialism this show promotes and buy into the idea that retail management is a glorious calling then what he said makes a sort of sense.

 

That doesn't mean I like Moray this year, either.  Last season he was confident and dynamic and this year he's envious and desperate and when Denise is mad at him even his hair gets sad.

 

I'm just watching now for Katherine who has always carried the show for me.

[attica]

Gah, this show has become grindingly tedious.

 

On the other hand, I've been screen-capping Katherine's outfits to take to my seamstress. I want WANT that outfit she wore at picture sitting #1. So what I have no where to wear it?! WANT.

 

Ben Daniels did the first four series of L&O UK, (playing the British Jack McCoy) if you like that kind of thing.

[JudyObscure]

Oh Attica, I was swooning over her clothes!  Some costume designer is really letting herself off the leash with her. I guess she figures she has a character with enough money, confidence and strong enough coloring to carry off anything.  Katherine Weston's clothes are as striking as what I had hoped for in Elizabeth Darcy's "D of P.".

[dcalley]

Poor Flora. I hated when her father told her not to call Katherine "mama." If he's not careful, she's going to make him a poison plum pudding some day.

 

The actors for Katherine and Sam are both in something I recently watched, Fingersmith. It's a tough one to describe, so I'll just paste in the Netflix description (and note that if you're drawn to this for Charles Dance, you might be disappointed).

 

Dark deeds and intrigue abound when petty thief Sue Trinder helps con man Richard Rivers defraud a wealthy heiress, Maud Lilly, of her inheritance. But Sue's plans are thwarted when she falls in love with Maud.

[Brattinella]

I really liked Moray at first, but now I think he is a chauvinist pig and doesn't deserve Denise.

[HouseofBeck]

That doesn't mean I like Moray this year, either. Last season he was confident and dynamic and this year he's envious and desperate and when Denise is mad at him even his hair gets sad.

Yes the hair. I was informing him quite strongly to brush it at least, before getting his picture taken, but no.

I'm conflicted about Weston too. Cruel, despicable...yet can he ever pour on charisma. I didn't want to feel that, but I did, even as I was horrified with his new, relentless campaign against someone with whom just last ep he almost pleaded to start over and be a true family. I feel so sorry and worried for Katherine now.

I wasn't sure what Clara would do up until the end. I hope he doesn't start making her Paradise existence difficult for her.

This show gives me such toothy pleasure.

[dcalley]

I watched a video about the costumes (they only talk to the actors and not the costume designer), and Joanna Vanderham mentioned Denise's chatelaine. I knew what she was talking about, but I was unfamiliar with the term and found this page, which has a lot of info and pictures of chatelaines. Interesting!

[Brattinella]

I watched a video about the costumes (they only talk to the actors and not the costume designer), and Joanna Vanderham mentioned Denise's chatelaine. I knew what she was talking about, but I was unfamiliar with the term and found this page, which has a lot of info and pictures of chatelaines. Interesting!

Thanks for that!  Fascinating stuff!

[tinderbox]

I don't think Season Two is as good as the first season but I still wish it wasn't cancelled. I've enjoyed this show and will miss it.

[treeofdreams]

It's been canceled?  Bummer.

 

I hope they give us closure, and not leave it with everything unresolved.

 

My perfect ending would be that that rich guy buys the Paradise and turns it over to Denise to run.

 

Remember early in the first season Denise says about Moray, "I don't want to marry him, I want to be him"?  Yeah.  Now that would be cool.

[Brattinella]

I'm happy with the way it ended.

[treeofdreams]

I'm glad they finished all the storylines, though it seemed a bit rushed.  They must have known they were not going to have a chance to develop them more in a third season.

 

I hope Denise brings Myrtle in as a partner - her new enterprise was made possible by Myrtle's recipe, and Myrtle has been wanting to get out of the kitchen.  And now Clara can take over the ladies department at last.

[BusyOctober]

I haven't been a "little champion" of this season, but that's how to wrap up a show finale in a pretty package.  All the main characters get what they want and most loose ends tied up. No cliff hangers, happy endings and CUT!

 

I do hope Myrtle gets a percentage or a royalty (TM Shark Tank) for her family recipe & know-how.  Without her, Denise's 19th century Sephora wouldn't get off the ground.

[zoey1996]

I liked very much most of this finale.  The one thing I really didn't like?  Katherine is having Weston's baby, so all will be fine.  Blech!  I still think he's a cold, manipulative bastard, and I wish Jonas had shoved him down rather than the other way around.  We saw what Jonas is capable of in the first season; wanted to see more of that.

Love that Denise will be at her uncle's shop with proper financial backing, and I guess Moray gets to stay at the Paradise. 

[JudyObscure]

I loved the ending, as well. Moray forgiven without being made to crawl too much. Denise with her own cosmetics business -- something about the pink moisturizer made me think she's going to be Elizabeth Arden. Weston's turn around was a bit of a stretch after all his cruelty but maybe Katherine can pull it off if she walks on eggshells forever -- poor woman.

Too bad we didn't find time for all the characters, but we can pretend, as suggested, that Myrtle shares the cosmetics business, Clara finds love with the photographer and Sam and Suzy get together.

[attica]

I was on the shutterbug/Clara train riiiiight up until he One-Directioned her: I like you best because of your low self-esteem! Echhh.

 

I gotta say, I'm glad this is over. The writers ran out of ideas last season, and this year was all poaching from Selfridge and re-doing other plots in new dresses.

[7-Zark-7]

I enjoyed the first season, but the second was maddeningly weak and pointless.  

[dcalley]

So, Weston killed that guy, right?

[zoey1996]

So, Weston killed that guy, right?

By that guy, you mean Jonas?  No, Jonas showed up later in the episode.  He was shoved down, but that was it.

[dcalley]

By that guy, you mean Jonas?  No, Jonas showed up later in the episode.  He was shoved down, but that was it.

No, I mean the debt collector who died in the store. Weston had dealings with him in the morning, and then he up and died! Fishy.

[editorgrrl]

I mean the debt collector who died in the store. Weston had dealings with him in the morning, and then he up and died! Fishy.

 

Weston was happy at breakfast because he'd bought Clemence's debts. I wouldn't expect the body to have Weston's cash on it had Weston murdered the guy.

[dcalley]

Yeah, I thought it was strange that Weston volunteered to everyone that they'd spoken, but because he's horrible and I'm suspicious of him, I thought it was just to throw people off. If that amount of money wasn't a big deal to him, it would be worth it if people didn't suspect him. I guess it was just a bad ticker or something for John Doe.

[JudyObscure]

I just checked the schedule to see what my local PBS has put in this time  slot.  "USA Sled Hockey."  Come back The Paradise all is forgiven!

[natyxg]

I've watched the first 4 eps of season two. I'm liking it so far. It's not the type of show that I would binge watch, but watching them one at a time is entertaining enough.

 

I really continue to love Katherine. Maybe it's my fangirling over Elaine Cassidy, but she really gets to me. I think giving her a kid was a brilliant way to give her the great dichotomy of villain and mother. She spoils Flora too much, though. I wish they would tell us more about how she married Tom. I assume she was on the rebound and he was the first guy that came along, and that Tom was just after her money, but it's weird to not see what brought them together. Speculating is not the same as knowing for sure. Tom is a scary dude and I fear what he will do to Katherine as the season progresses.

 

Moray continues to be beneath both Katherine and Denise. He's even more useless this season than season one, I think. I like Dudley way more and kind of ship him with all the girls he interacts with. Shame he's married. I loved how he handled Katherine when she was upset over Flora leaving to go to school.

 

I like that the show dealt with some feminist issues, but I wish the lesbian had been interested in Clara instead of Denise. I like Clara and she's been doing nothing this season. Moray is beneath her, too, so I'm glad that she's not pining over him this season, at least.

 

I also liked Katherine talking/thinking about her lack of education because she's so frivolous, I thought it was interesting. Sadly that seems to have been dropped and she will continue to be all about Moray Moray Moray, again. She was sort of ruined in the last bit of season 1, I fear they will do it again. Though Tom seems like he will be the real villain of the season. He's a great character, though. And the actor is pretty good.

[natyxg]

The actors for Katherine and Sam are both in something I recently watched, Fingersmith. It's a tough one to describe, so I'll just paste in the Netflix description (and note that if you're drawn to this for Charles Dance, you might be disappointed).

 

Yep, they are. My love for Elaine Cassidy started with Maud Lilly. What a great character that was. I think this season made Katherine a bit less interesting and Elaine couldn't shine as much, though.

 

I liked very much most of this finale.  The one thing I really didn't like?  Katherine is having Weston's baby, so all will be fine.  Blech!  I still think he's a cold, manipulative bastard, and I wish Jonas had shoved him down rather than the other way around. 

 

THIS!!!!

 

I thought they ended Moray and Denise really well. They didn't sacrifice her for the happy ending, and her having a cosmetics company was a great idea because she would not be in direct competition with TP, but instead doing her own thing. This part of the finale I liked, though I found Moray's ending confusing. Like... are he and Tom co-owners now?

 

Katherine's ending was absolutely tragic. I was hoping she was going to run away with Flora or Tom would die or something, but no. I wish her ending had been painted as tragic as it was, and not in this weird hopeful? way. Poor Katherine went from being someone, her own person adored by her father, to losing EVERYTHING and becoming absorbed by some dude she barely knows and who turned out to be a scary bastard. Now her money is not her own, she has no freedom or autonomy, Tom will forever be jealous and scary and having a million mistresses, and there is nowhere for her to go. Now that she will have her own kid she will be even more trapped. It's probably a realistic portrait of the times though, but I wish someone had pointed out how fucked up it was. Everytime Tom said the Paradise was his it bothered me so much because it was because women were nothing then and everything hers became his. It was really fucked up how he was so arrogant about owning the Paradise when he only owned it because Moray built it up, his father in law bought it with his made fortune and he married Katherine who got it from his father. He should've been ashamed, frankly, to be benefiting from other people's efforts.

[seacliffsal]

I have been watching the Paradise on Masterpiece-but it's the first series. I love it! I am sad to see that there will only be one more series.

[SusanSunflower]

Sadly and inexplicably (to me) it ran out of steam ...