Prof. Annalise Keating: How to Be a Badass

[Stinger97]

Annalise Keating is everything you hope your Criminal Law professor will be – brilliant, passionate, creative and charismatic. She’s also everything you don’t expect – sexy, glamorous, unpredictable and dangerous. As fearless in the courtroom as she is in the classroom, Annalise is a defense attorney who represents the most hardened criminals – people who’ve committed everything from fraud to arson to murder. Annalise seems like she has it all – a successful career and a loving husband, Sam – but soon she will be forced to confront secrets about her life she never saw coming.

[Iamsweetdee]

A bitch? Really?

[Stinger97]

A bitch? Really?

 

How's that?

[wanderingstar]

Viola Davis drew me into this character immediately. I'm keen to find out more about her life - her marriage, and her extra-marital activities, as well as how she became a lawyer and came to be at her firm. Did the pilot give any indication whether she was a partner? 

[Iamsweetdee]

Glad the thread title was changed.

[discoprincess]

Someone else pointed out a lack of chemistry between Annalise and Sam. Why did they get married in the first place? Why are they still together? if things were really on the rocks, then Annalise should have taken advantage of Yale's attempt to recruit Sam and have told him, "Deuces, baby!"

Edited October 21, 2014 by discoprincess

[jbrecken]

It's a little too on the nose that her name is essentially "Analyze."

[RedheadZombie]

People walk in the door almost every day and find loved ones murdered.  Men who are cheating on their wives, children who hate their parents.  Rarely does that affect the reflex to call 911.  The impulse to help your loved one - even when the relationship is extremely turbulent and dysfunctional - is over powering.  "Shock" does not affect your ability to call 911.  The kid whose arms were ripped off in a tractor accident called for help himself.  The fact that Annalise did not is a glimpse into her psyche.  She is a woman who always thinks of herself first.  Not potentially saving Sam (family always thinks there's hope), not catching the killer.  Her mind didn't shut down due to shock.  She sat herself down and started calculating.

 

I love Viola Davis, but it's not impairing how I view the character of Annalise.  She's fascinating, but she's also damaged.  She has done nothing but manipulate and pull the strings of the other characters.  Excepting her mother (perhaps) she has affected every person in her life negatively.  She's phenomenal at her job.  She knows that Sam was killed in self-defense.  She knows the circumstances of his death.  She knows that Sam most likely killed a pregnant woman.  She knows the students were attempting to get evidence of his guilt.  She knows no jury would convict Wes or the others.  She knows all of this, yet chooses to frame her lover.

 

I've seen enough to feel confident in my opinion.  I've seen how she's treated Nate.  She gets him fired, ruins his career, then sets him up for a crime - all while he has a terminally ill wife.  I've seen how she treats her students.  She mentally manipulates and torments Bonnie.  She had an abusive relationship with Sam, but she gave as good as she took.  She attempted to mind-fuck him right back.  Knowing her relationship started when he was her therapist, I think he probably took advantage of her.  But that was a long time ago, and I don't feel he was still controlling her.  She was in control of her own agency, so I place responsibility for her actions on her.  She is not a victim or a heroine.  In soaps she would be called the anti-hero. 

 

I can still enjoy her, but I don't root for her.  I also can appreciate that she's breaking stereotypes of a black character.  They tend to be all bad, or angelic martyrs.  Annalise is a real person, loaded with faults, powerful, and smart as hell.   She does feel fear, sadness, remorse, but she doesn't let it affect her decision making.  My only complaint would be that both Annalise and the Scandal character are black women involved with white men.  I'm white so my opinion probably doesn't matter, and maybe a black woman will feel differently.

[helenamonster]

I totally agree, RedheadZombie. I posted awhile back in one of the episode threads that Annalise's #1 priority is Annalise. She gets to fuck around and do whatever she wants, and it's everybody else's job (the Scoobies, Bonnie and Frank, Nate) to clean up her mess. It works for me, and I think Viola is selling the hell out of it. It's nice to finally have an unrootable, ruthless antihero that doesn't fall under the category of "het-cis white man haz-a-sad."

[ribboninthesky1]

She was in control of her own agency, so I place responsibility for her actions on her.  She is not a victim or a heroine.  In soaps she would be called the anti-hero. 

 

I can still enjoy her, but I don't root for her.  I also can appreciate that she's breaking stereotypes of a black character.  They tend to be all bad, or angelic martyrs.  Annalise is a real person, loaded with faults, powerful, and smart as hell.   She does feel fear, sadness, remorse, but she doesn't let it affect her decision making.  My only complaint would be that both Annalise and the Scandal character are black women involved with white men.  I'm white so my opinion probably doesn't matter, and maybe a black woman will feel differently.

 

I am a black woman, and I thought Annalise as a calculating manipulator was intriguing and atypical.  But then they went the route of pathologizing her past, which IS rather stereotypical, on top of implying she was conflicted/tormented about Sam's death and infidelity.  I never thought she was, and that was fine by me.  

 

That said, it would be nice for a lead black female character to have a healthy, reciprocal relationship on screen, regardless of the race of her suitor.  Despite the circumstances, I initially thought Nate could be that guy.  But yeah, that was pretty much dead in the water when, after getting him suspended, she asked him to investigate Sam's involvement in Lila's murder.  They never did explain why Frank couldn't have done the same level of investigation as Nate, but whatever.      

[Chicago Redshirt]

I can think of several potential reasons why Annalise turned to Nate rather than Frank (or for that matter, someone else)

 

1. Nate is a trained detective. So he knows how to actually investigate things. Frank is a fixer. We haven't been shown that he knows how to do actual investigations. We've only been shown that he knows how to plant evidence, knows guys who knows guys and the like. 

 

2. Nate has integrity (or at least, as much integrity as a person who is cheating on his dying wife can have, and by the standards of this show, is certainly in the upper echelon), and would follow the investigation wherever it led honestly. Frank...not so much. I'd imagine at best Frank would tailor the evidence to whatever he thought Annalise wanted it to be.

 

3. Nate does not owe Sam anything, and arguably has an ax to grind against Sam (although again, I don't think that Nate would fake evidence to make Sam seem guilty). Frank owes Sam something big enough to get him to commit murder.  Annalise may know of that debt, and if so, that is explanation enough for why she wouldn't have Frank in on investigating Sam.

 

4. Nate was recently fired from Philly PD and -- as far as we're shown, anyway -- has nothing else to do but to devote himself to this case. Frank has his usual set of duties helping with Annalise's busy caseload.

 

5. On the original viewing, I always saw Annalise's request to investigate Sam to have an undercurrent of "If Sam's guilty, maybe we can be together in the open." At least, I think it was meant to send a message to Nate about her thoughts about their relationship.

 

6. By involving Nate, Annalise keeps the investigation separate from the K5 and Bonnie in a way that would be much more difficult than if Frank took the lead.

 

7. There's trust and then there's TRUST. I think it's fair to think that while Annalise trusts Frank, she TRUSTS Nate.

 

8. At that point, Annalise was wanting to conceal the possibility of Sam being the murderer, whether it was because she still loved him, wanted to be as objective as possible, or it was just part of her manipulative ways. Nate again would keep things under wraps. Frank might or might not. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[ribboninthesky1]

It seems that several of your suggestions have the benefit of hindsight post-finale, and I don't think was apparent on original viewing. 

 

At the time that Annalise went to Nate to investigate Sam, viewers don't know enough about Nate to assume he has (work) integrity.  What was known at the time was Nate and Annalise were cheating on their spouses, Annalise put him on the spot on the stand for her case, he was suspended and Sam was possibly cheating/might have had something to do with Lila's murder.  We weren't presented with anything much about Nate's ability as a detective.  I think he cared for Annalise, but that's distinct from his job. 

 

I don't recall if Frank not being a lawyer was apparent at that point in the show, but very little that Nate was shown doing couldn't have been done by someone who knows how to ask the right questions.  Just like Frank was caught planting evidence, Nate was also caught in/around Sam's car - by TWO people.  To me, there wasn't enough Nate development to validate what kind of detective he was. Also, I remember wondering why Annalise didn't ask Frank during the original airing, especially since Nate was suspended, wasn't supposed to be doing police work anyway, and wanted nothing to do with Annalise. Frank wouldn't have been any less legitimate asking questions as a private citizen.  

 

I confess I never thought Annalise went to Nate to hint that Sam's involvement would determine if they could be publicly together - I think she was in CYA mode, and wanted to know what was possibly coming with Sam so she could be prepared.  If I recall correctly, she had been asked to represent Griffin, and she didn't want to commit to it before knowing what Nate found out about Sam's movements the night he supposedly went to Yale/Harvard for a speaking engagement.  I always assumed she was anxious to know about Sam so that she could represent him if it came down to it.         

 

I've not seen much to establish that Annalise trusted Nate more than Frank. Going to Nate to investigate Sam never felt logical within the context of the show to me, and she's overall been shown using Nate multiple times.  Nate feels more like a pawn than a lover or someone with established intimacy.  Frank never felt disloyal to me, even before the show changed the trajectory of his character (in my opinion). And he presumably knew and worked for Annalise longer than Nate knew her, so I'm unconvinced Annalise trusted Nate more than Frank.  And particularly in the latter part of the season, Annalise puts her complete trust in Frank in a way she was never shown with Nate (or anyone else).

 

Annalise consistently used the students to do the majority of the work on her cases, so I don't think Frank was that busy with her caseload. Ultimately, I believe the show didn't lock down Frank as a character, beyond the Laurel romance, until the latter half of the season. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I definitely agree that some of my thinking is with the benefit of hindsight.

 

I do think that Nate had integrity as a detective based on what we were initially shown, however. He was being cross-examined about Philly police altering video and if he had heard of instances of that happening. He admitted that he had. Now he had to know how that would affect his career -- admitting under oath that Philly police had tampered with evidence and costing a murder conviction. He had to know that he could just as easily have said "No, I've never heard of that." and presumably Annalise would not be able to disprove it. Yet he did the honorable thing and told the truth. (At least, I assume it was the truth and honorable. I suppose it could be that he hadn't heard of Philly police altering video and he lied to support his woman.)

Another rationale that was a possibility apparent at the time was that perhaps Annalise wanted Nate to have a chance to redeem himself and earn his job back by catching Sam.

 

The thing is that even with the benefit of the whole season, it's unclear to me how Annalise truly feels about Nate, or for that matter, about Sam.

[ribboninthesky1]

On that last point, we can agree for sure.  It's one of the reasons I never perceived her relationship with Sam as complex as others did.  

 

I see your point about Nate's testimony. Though, for all we know, he could have been involved in such tampering himself.  I don't really believe that, but because Nate was so underdeveloped, it's easy to speculate.  Plus, we never got to see Nate doing his job outside of Annalise's prompting, which ties to my point in not knowing much about how good he was at it. 

 

As for Nate redeeming himself by investigating Sam - that's certainly a possibility.  But I thought Annalise going to Nate literally and figuratively under the cover of darkness was because she wanted it to be kept a secret until she knew the deal, and could make a decision before the police officially set their sights on Sam as a suspect (never mind that he should have already been one, based on what was shown during the finale).  I'm not sure if Nate could have even legitimately went to his superiors with what he discovered without getting into more trouble.  I imagine if he did share what he found, another detective would have been tasked to confirm it all.

[Lucelu]

I love Viola Davis but this character that is written for her is one nasty bit of business, all over the place, generally hostile/unbalanced and not very believable. I recently rewatched/binged Damages. The character Patty Hewes was written so much better. 

[wanderingstar]

I like Annalise and Eve. Eve seems to be the only person who can make Annalise smile. Knowing this show, though, I know better than to get my hopes up for a happy ending.

[DeeDee79]

Despite her (many) flaws I love Annalise. Yes, she's ruthless, conniving & at times heartless. She walks all over those who are loyal to her & enjoys destroying those that she deems to be her enemies. The reason why I enjoy her so much is because we've seen countless male characters written with these traits & we applaud them; we rarely see women written this way. Some may call her a bitch; I call her awesome. Sleeping with Nate whose wife is dying of cancer? Nate has more reason to feel guilt than she does, and it doesn't seem like he's feeling it that much. She's mean & cutting to Bonnie? She'd doesn't show Frank much kindness but he rolls with it; after being with her for a while Bonnie should have a thicker skin. I could go on but I don't want to bore anyone; she's flawed but I like her just the same.

Edited October 13, 2015 by DeeDee79

[DrSparkles]

I lol every time they show Annilise clomp clomp clomping down a hallway. Girlfriend can NOT walk in heels (also see: Julia Roberts). Viola, get some Tieks! :)

[wanderingstar]

Yep, I love Annalise - flaws and all!

[krimimimi]

I think my problem with Annalise and the murder 4 is that she was under no obligation to help them cover up their crimes... Unlike her PAYING CLIENTS. It's one thing to cover up murders if you're getting paid or they are your friends... but the only reason I can understand her covering up for them is that she wanted more people to surround her that feels indebted to her.

 

She's not a lawyer who happens to cover up murders, she's actively trying to find the most guiltiest looking people around to defend because she's bored and depressed and there's apparently nothing good on tv in her universe.  Also she has at least 2 other murderers on her payroll... So it's not an incidental lawyery thing but something she actively pursues in her personal and professional life.

 

If she wanted to not see the murderers who murdered her husband (like most sane people would prefer) she could just kick them to the curb and tell them not to get involved in illegal shit. Instead she's constantly getting them to commit one sort of crime or another for her benefit. Like harassing the interns to hack the police department.

That's from wayne67. For some reason the formatting went wrong when I shifted threads.

 

I'm not going to try to change your mind. Your position is one echoed for various reasons by others on these boards, and personally I find it really interesting. I really would love to understand what makes some people come down either in favor of or against this character, because I think she's a more layered and complicated character than I'm usually fed on network TV (although some of that is totally plot driven and not yet backed up by characterization/ story), and she certainly seems to be a more divisive character than most. I'd like to understand why.

 

For me, the kids have a greater degree of guilt and are acting like complete toerags. I don't doubt for a moment that part of Anni's impulse to protect them stems from an instinct for self preservation (whether because she thought she'd be suspected in Sam's death, or because the kids could cop a plea with info on her case misconduct (illegally obtained evidence or dirty tricks), as perversely Asher is shown to be doing now)*. But that's hardly a long term strategy for getting new interns year after year. How many husbands can she have murdered before that explodes in her face? She didn't hesitate to press-gang the scoobies into illegal stuff for her clients from the outset, so I expect I'm supposed to think that's standardish practice in their universe. Certainly the cops and prosecutors have also been shown to be all kinds of shady, too. And I'd like to believe they are still the good guys and held to a higher standard.

 

I also wonder if part of it isn't an instinct to protect "kids" in a way she wasn't protected when she was young. (Your idea of who is a kid shifts upwards as you get older, and they are definitely her mentees.) Plus I still think being a lawyer means she's less freaked then I would be when faced with a confessed murderer.

 

On an emotional level, I think I also feel more comfortable with a character covering up a murder for "friends" than for clients. The money changing hands has an aftertaste of moral corruption or prostitution of values for me. Intellectually of course I'm all for fair representation, even of the guilty, but emotions have a way of clouding logic.

 

You're right of course that she need never to see these people again, but that may be an in for a penny thing at this point. And she's definitely a pragmatist. She'll use any tool to hand to get a job done. Not sure that's sufficient to set me against a character. Scratch that, it apparently isn't. That and I sorely feel her TV universe pain. Preach. (I'm just happy I have this to watch. ;-) )

 

But what I'd love to better understand is how those of you who find her hard to stomach see or rank the characters, both by (moral) character and relative guilt. Based on what we know atm, the kids are guilty of a more serious crime (do we even agree on that?), but I feel like some folks are finding Anni's character harder to take. Is that a correct reading? And if so, why?

 

Is it caused in part by a feeling that the show isn't sufficiently acknowledging her guilt? I know that can make me really stabby. (The less Blindspot points out Weller's being a knob re Taylor, the more I hate his character. If the show, particularly via other characters' comments, recognizes that flagrant stupidity, then I back off.) We're socialized wolves. When someone exposes their throat, you stop needing to rip it out. Like Bonnie's "I'm not capable of anything" passive/subservient approach to managing the situation with a far more dominant Anni. That worked out for her.

 

Or do you really just find Anni worse than the others? Or do you find them all really bad? How does she stack up for you guys vs the others?

 

 

* If it turns out that Sam came back to life again after Wes bonked him while the kids were in the woods, and that Anni did him in for... reasons and that's why she's "protecting" the kids all while gaslighting them that they killed Sam, I'm out. It already bordered on stupid horror film how he kept coming back.

Edited October 23, 2015 by krimimimi

[Chicago Redshirt]

I could probably go on forever talking about Anni. I think she is one of the more interesting characters to appear on broadcast TV because of her various layers:

 

She's brilliant and accomplished.

She's ruthless and pragmatic.

She's sexy and desirable in a world where older women and black women, particularly darker-skinned ones, are often not portrayed that way.

She's vulnerable.

She is unflinching in speaking out about injustice both in terms of her clients and about such things as white/male privilege.

She's a pathological liar and manipulator.

She's literally helping people get away with murder.

She is doing so by breaking both ethical standards and the law.

 

I think that some people may have problems with some or all the above traits, and particularly the last few. After all, most TV defense attorneys are shown to defend innocent people. Anni is one of the only ones who openly is like, "IDGAF if you are innocent or not. Imma going to win this case."

 

I also think it is easy to hold Anni to a higher standard, as she is older, wiser and more experienced. The K5 are presumably 21-25. They have not had to deal with much of the real world in general, let alone killing. 

[represent]

 

could probably go on forever talking about Anni. I think she is one of the more interesting characters to appear on broadcast TV because of her various layers:

She's brilliant and accomplished.

She's ruthless and pragmatic.

She's sexy and desirable in a world where older women and black women, particularly darker-skinned ones, are often not portrayed that way.

She's vulnerable.

She is unflinching in speaking out about injustice both in terms of her clients and about such things as white/male privilege.

She's a pathological liar and manipulator.

She's literally helping people get away with murder.

She is doing so by breaking both ethical standards and the law.

I think that some people may have problems with some or all the above traits, and particularly the last few. After all, most TV defense attorneys are shown to defend innocent people. Anni is one of the only ones who openly is like, "IDGAF if you are innocent or not. Imma going to win this case."

I also think it is easy to hold Anni to a higher standard, as she is older, wiser and more experienced. The K5 are presumably 21-25. They have not had to deal with much of the real world in general, let alone killing.

 

Ditto for me.

 

I think some people watch dramas and need a character to root for, I don't necessarily need that, it depends on the show. The show is called "How to Get Away with Murder," I really don't need any of these people to carry themselves with high moral standards, I don't.

 

Nor do I expect  for Anna to act maternal especially when she's had her own issues with the mother figure in her life. But even if that wasn't in her background, I don't expect it just cause she has a uterus, please. Some women aren't maternal and they are just fine and normal to me. They don't have to be, she doesn't have to genuinely want to protect these young adults, but adults no less, just because she's a woman, older, and wiser.

 

But I do expect that she would not break to the law since she, even as a defense attorney, is sworn to uphold it and teach her students to do the same. But still, I'm not harshly judging her as in I can't stand to watch her if she doesn't because of the show she's on. These people are off the chain disturbed, every last one of them so, I just watch and enjoy.

Edited October 23, 2015 by represent

[krimimimi]

I'm collecting some really nice viewpoints about Annalise and putting them here so they don't get lost in the episode threads. (Where they also fit quite nicely, but I for one will never find them again.)

I was thinking this tonight, as far as we know, Annalise is the only one who doesn't have blood on her hands, but is accused the most in being involved in the murders by almost everyone. I don't know if she'd get off for her cover up, but I don't believe she'd get as harsh of a ruling as the others.

TBH, I'm sick of Connor's crying about how she has control of them because, before he participated in the murder, there was nothing keeping them there besides them wanting her approval and the experience that came with working under her. I honestly can't recall a time she's ever used the murder against them to blackmail them into anything other than when Connor came in flinging accusations at her. Annalise focuses on the now all while they obsess over the past. I'm not saying Connor shouldn't be upset, but he should stop blaming his shit on Annalise and either own up to his part or shut the fuck up.

Annalise has a lot of self loathing, but I think here actions and motivations are far more complicated than she is credited for. Hell yes, a lot of what she does is messed up, especially the Nate situation. But, I understand her reaction in that situation, either way it's spun, she's fucked. She could tell them truth, but then they'd still find a way to claim she did it or influenced those students to kill her husband. Or accuse her of lying--of brain washing them and so forth. But, ultimately, Annalise covered up for them because of Sam. Her marriage was already a disaster before the Lila issue arose because of his infidelity and his indiscretions kept hurting and humiliating her. But, then she asked him flat out about Lila and flat out lied to her face, and then tried to cover his tracks. He got this other girl pregnant and some other shit I forgot about in addition to his final words he said to her.

Annalise was hurt that he died because she loved him, but she still believed he deserved his fate because he killed an innocent girl, even though this girl was fucking her husband, all because the girl was pregnant and threatened to expose him. She was absolutely sick of his shit by then and decided she'd rather help cover his murder and not have that stigma attached to those kids as well as take on the scrutiny because no one could prove she did it, rather than turn them in.

She did nothing because she was in disbelief and shock--sure, the planning came next, but I don't think she gave to shits about justice for Sam because she believed he deserved his fate.

And why would Bonnie admit to Annalise, of all people, to committing a murder she wasn't responsible for??? Who is she protecting?

I just think Annalise is this toxic, bitter, anger, lying, and manipulative person because of his molestation and the events surrounding it. She thought her mother ignored her abuse and carried that shame and hatred with her to college/law school where she met Eve, and then Sam. I mean, who gets involved with their therapist and thinks that will turn out well? Sam is probably the first person she had an honest conversation about her molestation to who didn't make her feel bad and she developed feelings for him. Sam, the serial cheater he was, indulged in her feelings and allowed the affair to happen. Annalise thought nothing of his infidelity and thought they had something, but when the same happened to her, she put up with it because of the connection she formed with him during their sessions and whatever intimate talks they had after that.

My point being: Annalise 's "normal" is toxic relationships where she has to manipulate and lie. She didn't feel protected and listened to as a girl, and then got until an unequal relationship with her therapist. She has hella reason to be bitter and anger even if some of the shit she's experienced is self imposed. Her actions are messed up and she knows this, but she doesn't know how to fix her. At the same time, I don't think she behaves like this because she wants to manipulate everyone and doesn't give two shits about them.

...

[krimimimi]

I enjoy watching Viola Davis portray Annalise, but I have no illusions about the character. Annalise is a toxic, angry, bitter, pathological liar, and manipulator. I'm tired of her throwing it in the Keating 4's faces that she's "protecting" them. Bullshit. Annalise walked into her house, found her husband murdered, and did nothing. She knew she was in a compromising position. She knew she would be the number one suspect, and she certainly had motive. She was sitting at that desk spinning and manipulating. It wasn't until Wes walked in that she knew who killed Sam. And I'm not convinced Sam was dead when they ran out, and someone else didn't finish him off. And I think that's one of the problems with this show.

We already have two pre-meditated murderers and one manslaughter in self-defense, not to mention the rest of the cast (now including Asher) who are accessories or accessories after the fact. There's no way that Asher is going to be responsible for the DA's death - this isn't the Sopranos, not every character can be bad. This leads me to speculate that the siblings are responsible for the DA's death and Annalise's injury. I also think that it's possible Bonnie didn't actually kill Rebecca, and that someone other than the Keating 4 ultimately killed Sam. They need to minimize the murderers, and to do that they have to have characters responsible for multiple deaths. I think by the end of this season, they're going to need to show us a murderer being convicted, killed, or leaving the show.

[Lady Calypso]

As much as I do enjoy Annalise, I know she's not a good person and although she has not committed murder directly, she has just as much blood on her hands as everyone else. 

 

I think my main issue is how she treats Wes compared to everyone else. She coddles Wes to the point where you can't help but wonder if she's either his mother or she's in love with him. Yet, she gets mad at the others and doesn't always offer them the same support she does consistently to Wes. She may say that she's protecting all of them, and she is to an extent, but her main priority is protecting Wes and she knows she has to protect the others in order to achieve that. She knows that Wes killed Sam. She chooses to protect him by telling him how to cover up Sam's murder and uses that to blackmail the group into keeping silent. She's aware that Frank has done several shady things, though I don't think she knows he's literally killed people including Lila. She now knows Bonnie has killed Rebecca. Sure, she's protecting them all, but to what end? 

 

I don't see her as a truly awful person, per say. In fact, she's quite a fascinating character. But her hands are just as dirty here, because she's done the bare minimum to not have to get her hands dirty. Not that she's facilitated the murders that have happened; no, that she is innocent of. However, she uses people to do her dirty work most of the time, and I do think that her knowledge of the two current murders thus far has proven her far from innocent. The Keating Four only know of Sam's murder because they were there. Annalise has knowledge of Sam's murder, but now also Rebecca's. She may not have done any of these things, but she made the choice to protect the real killers and break rules in order to do that.

 

And in terms of her conversations with Connor, of course he's not innocent. However, he has shown guilt and he seems the most fragile mentally, almost as much as Bonnie is (though Bonnie's mental health seems far worse). I think Connor blames her more for using them and manipulating them due to their involvement with Sam's murder, yet Annalise convinced them not to go to the police. She's protecting them for her own reasons (whether she actually does care about them, or she's solely making sure Wes is safe or whatever) but Connor's not wrong in calling her out on her own actions. We know she has done very illegal things to win cases, and we know she knows a lot more that could get her put in jail for keeping silent. 

 

And frankly, I only see her truly caring about one person, and that is Wes. We could maybe see her caring about Bonnie and maybe Frank, but not as much as Wes. In my opinion, if Wes had not been involved in Sam's murder in any way, she would have been less protective and might have turned them in herself. But all I can see is her wanting to protect Wes and only Wes, and if that means protecting the others to make sure they don't squeal, or the DA snooping around and discovering Wes' involvement, then she will do it. And the best part is that I don't think she fully realizes how manipulative she is. 

 

I don't know; I guess I'm frustrated by her consistency in overprotecting Wes. She's hardly yelled at him, she has Frank keeping an eye on him and she's constantly having him talk to her about his feelings or whatnot, as if he can't handle himself. From what I've seen, Wes and Laurel are two characters who can handle themselves just fine. 

[RedheadZombie]

Nanrad, I think you have very well thought out opinions, and I want to address them point by point.  Not to attack or challenge your opinions, but to continue the dialogue on the fascinating character of Annalise.

 

I was thinking this tonight, as far as we know, Annalise is the only one who doesn't have blood on her hands, but is accused the most in being involved in the murders by almost everyone. I don't know if she'd get off for her cover up, but I don't believe she'd get as harsh of a ruling as the others.

 

This is probably true, and I think Annalise deserves a lot of the blame.  Sure her students are actually adults, but they are pretty innocent in the corruption of Annalise's world.  She brought them into this case, her lover - an experienced detective - told Rebecca to get the evidence off Sam's computer, and Annalise perpetuated the entire cover up.

 

TBH, I'm sick of Connor's crying about how she has control of them because, before he participated in the murder, there was nothing keeping them there besides them wanting her approval and the experience that came with working under her. I honestly can't recall a time she's ever used the murder against them to blackmail them into anything other than when Connor came in flinging accusations at her. Annalise focuses on the now all while they obsess over the past. I'm not saying Connor shouldn't be upset, but he should stop blaming his shit on Annalise and either own up to his part or shut the fuck up.

 

I'm irritated a little by Connor too, but I think he's seeing Annalise clearer than the rest.  She's a puppet master.  Annalise knew better than anyone - it's her job for heaven's sake - how to spin Sam's death.   All they needed to do was call the police and tell the truth (imagine that!).  Nate would have gotten in trouble for working with them - hell of a lot better than being framed for murder!  Computer forensics could have backed up Rebecca copying Sam's files.  All the evidence in the house would have backed up the scuffle.  A pathologist would have backed up Sam's injuries being consistent with a fall, and then a blow to the head.  The trophy would have been sitting there with Sam's blood.  My point is this - It's simply not in Annalise to tell the truth.  Her cover up leaves these four students beholden to her.  When they stray, she yanks their chain and reminds them of what they owe her.  I mean we've already seen this behavior with Bonnie.  Remember last season when Bonnie was on her knees begging Annalise?  Annalise remained cold and disapproving, and that left Bonnie even more devoted to her.  And in this last episode - Bonnie calls Annalise completely broken.  She's failed Annalise again, and she didn't do what she was instructed to do.  Then, and only then, does Annalise become a protector.  She swoops in and soothes Bonnie, and yells at the others to back off.  But what's missed is Annalise is orchestrating everything.  The fact that Annalise already has Bonnie and Frank completely faithful and beholden to her is no accident.  But she doesn't actually help them.  They seem to think she's "saved" them, but how does she reward this devotion?  Bonnie desperately needs psychological help, but Annalise chooses to involve her more fully in this entire mess.  And Frank - well Frank is instructed to break even more laws, and do even dirtier deeds for her.  And that's why, IMO, she is involved in the cover up of Sam's death.  Not because she's in love or protective of Wes (at least not completely), but because she gets four more puppets.

 

She did nothing because she was in disbelief and shock--sure, the planning came next, but I don't think she gave to shits about justice for Sam because she believed he deserved his fate.

 

I'm sure Annalise was surprised by Sam's death, who wouldn't be.  Yet across the US, people find their loved ones murdered every day, and their impulse is to call 911.  Annalise didn't do that because that's not the way her brain works.  Her immediate impulse is to lie and manipulate the story.  I'm sure part of her was relieved and possibly strangely pleased to see him dead, and that would be incredibly difficult to deal with.  But her brain was fully engaged and spinning - proven by the fact that she had a complete and detailed cover up for Wes.  And she relayed this detailed plan in such an immediate way that the others didn't catch on, because Wes was back so quickly.

 

And why would Bonnie admit to Annalise, of all people, to committing a murder she wasn't responsible for??? Who is she protecting?

 

I have no idea.  I simply want Bonnie not to be a killer because I like her character.  My point was there are already too many killers on this show.  Because of that, I said I thought the DA's death and Annalise's injury can't be because of our regulars.  I also said I wished that last season's deaths could be condensed down to one killer, and that person can go to jail, die, or leave the show.  Otherwise, the longevity of this show is seriously compromised.  The title should be changed to - "How We Got Away with Murder".

 

I just think Annalise is this toxic, bitter, anger, lying, and manipulative person because of his molestation and the events surrounding it. She thought her mother ignored her abuse and carried that shame and hatred with her to college/law school where she met Eve, and then Sam. I mean, who gets involved with their therapist and thinks that will turn out well? Sam is probably the first person she had an honest conversation about her molestation to who didn't make her feel bad and she developed feelings for him. Sam, the serial cheater he was, indulged in her feelings and allowed the affair to happen. Annalise thought nothing of his infidelity and thought they had something, but when the same happened to her, she put up with it because of the connection she formed with him during their sessions and whatever intimate talks they had after that.

My point being: Annalise 's "normal" is toxic relationships where she has to manipulate and lie. She didn't feel protected and listened to as a girl, and then got until an unequal relationship with her therapist. She has hella reason to be bitter and anger even if some of the shit she's experienced is self imposed. Her actions are messed up and she knows this, but she doesn't know how to fix her. At the same time, I don't think she behaves like this because she wants to manipulate everyone and doesn't give two shits about them.

 

I kind of hate that whole molestation storyline.  Even though it's very common, it's also extremely cliché.  It makes Annalise a victim, instead of the strong Black woman she actually is.  They also throw in the fact that Sam was her therapist before he was her lover, and again it implies she's a victim.  And I see Annalise as more of a victimizer than a victim.  She has a little bit of a sexual predator in her.  When Wes caught her with Nate, her first impulse was to attempt to seduce him.  When she needs an alibi, she runs to Nate and manipulates him and sleeps with him.  When she feels guilty about Nate, she yanks Eve's chain, and again - has sex with that character.  There was also enough sexual overtone in her interactions with Bonnie last season, that people were speculating that Bonnie was in love with her. 

 

I agree that Annalise's "normal" is toxic relationships, but part of that is on her.  I think she had equal responsibility in that destructive marriage.  He was cheating on her (surprise surprise, she cheated with him when he was married before), and she was cheating on him - and with a man with a sympathetic and dying wife.  I really think the writers chose these details for a reason.  I think I'm viewing the character how they want me to view her, and I don't have a problem with it.  I enjoy watching this very nuanced, and damaged, strong Black successful woman.  They're showing me enough guilt and torment in Annalise that I can view her as not quite a villain.  I also anticipate the character being redeemed, which is another cliché, but one I enjoy.

[Nanrad]

There's nothing wrong with a good ole fashion dialogue, Redhead Zombie... ;)

 

This is probably true, and I think Annalise deserves a lot of the blame.  Sure her students are actually adults, but they are pretty innocent in the corruption of Annalise's world.  She brought them into this case, her lover - an experienced detective - told Rebecca to get the evidence off Sam's computer, and Annalise perpetuated the entire cover up.

 

Did she tell Rebecca to get that information off of Sam's computer. I honestly think that Rebecca acted on her own violation. Despite this, Annalise got them involved to investigate the case, what led to his death has nothing to do with Annalise, which is why I don't fault her. Didn't they follow Wes to the house or something, and then it was a situation that escalated out of control. That's what I mean she has no blood on her hands. She's not telling or hinting for anyone to kill for her--it wasn't even for her, Sam was killed to protect Rebecca due to a situation that spun out of control. They may have been innocent on corruption, but that Sam situation was entirely on them.

 

I'm irritated a little by Connor too, but I think he's seeing Annalise clearer than the rest.  She's a puppet master.  Annalise knew better than anyone - it's her job for heaven's sake - how to spin Sam's death.   All they needed to do was call the police and tell the truth (imagine that!).  Nate would have gotten in trouble for working with them - hell of a lot better than being framed for murder!  Computer forensics could have backed up Rebecca copying Sam's files.  All the evidence in the house would have backed up the scuffle.  A pathologist would have backed up Sam's injuries being consistent with a fall, and then a blow to the head.  The trophy would have been sitting there with Sam's blood.  My point is this - It's simply not in Annalise to tell the truth.  Her cover up leaves these four students beholden to her.  When they stray, she yanks their chain and reminds them of what they owe her.  I mean we've already seen this behavior with Bonnie.  Remember last season when Bonnie was on her knees begging Annalise?  Annalise remained cold and disapproving, and that left Bonnie even more devoted to her.  And in this last episode - Bonnie calls Annalise completely broken.  She's failed Annalise again, and she didn't do what she was instructed to do.  Then, and only then, does Annalise become a protector.  She swoops in and soothes Bonnie, and yells at the others to back off.  But what's missed is Annalise is orchestrating everything.  The fact that Annalise already has Bonnie and Frank completely faithful and beholden to her is no accident.  But she doesn't actually help them.  They seem to think she's "saved" them, but how does she reward this devotion?  Bonnie desperately needs psychological help, but Annalise chooses to involve her more fully in this entire mess.  And Frank - well Frank is instructed to break even more laws, and do even dirtier deeds for her.  And that's why, IMO, she is involved in the cover up of Sam's death.  Not because she's in love or protective of Wes (at least not completely), but because she gets four more puppets.

 

I agree it's not simply in her to tell the truth, but at the same time, I don't think people would believe her story. "Oh, your students--students who happen to work for you, as well as the client your a defending, kill your husband in self defense AFTER they tried to FRAME him for Lila's murder." The truth will not set HER free and they will mostly believe kids were brainwashed or something. Even you believe Annalise can persuade or be very influential over their behavior. 

 

Doesn't Annalise use more of her professional influence to lure them back in rather than the cover up? Also, we don't really know the back history with Bonnie or her general mindset. Frank does a lot of things for Annalise, but although he is loyalty, he doesn't fall over himself for her approval. Even when you see Bonnie's interaction with Asher, you see her issues are much deeper than that. Just like with Sam regarding Annalise, I think Annalise provided Bonnie with something emotionally that she never had before, which is why she'd do anything for Annalise. 

 

We don't know the extent of her relationships with the pre-show. Even then, both seemed fulfilled with the job they have working with Annalise, which would explain why they stay around. Annalise, despite whatever people think about her, has a reputation for winning. Who wouldn't want to be associated with a person like that or even work with a person like that? Frank loves doing shady shit, which Annalise allows him to do, so he's set. We don't have enough info on Bonnie to made a definite conclusion about her and their relationship either way. Annalise is broken, which is probably why Bonnie is drawn to her and/or thinks Annalise should be more understanding/forgiving. 

I kind of hate that whole molestation storyline.  Even though it's very common, it's also extremely cliché.  It makes Annalise a victim, instead of the strong Black woman she actually is.  They also throw in the fact that Sam was her therapist before he was her lover, and again it implies she's a victim.  And I see Annalise as more of a victimizer than a victim.  She has a little bit of a sexual predator in her.  When Wes caught her with Nate, her first impulse was to attempt to seduce him.  When she needs an alibi, she runs to Nate and manipulates him and sleeps with him.  When she feels guilty about Nate, she yanks Eve's chain, and again - has sex with that character.  There was also enough sexual overtone in her interactions with Bonnie last season, that people were speculating that Bonnie was in love with her.

 

And this is why I think Annalise is far more complex than given credit for. 

 

I think she is a strong black woman who once was a victim, but she still has shit that haunts her and that she constantly deals with. I know flawed/messed up characters is a cliched topic, but what makes it interesting to me is that the show is exploring it through the point of view of the black community as well as a woman of color. Women of color constantly deal with criticism concerning BOTH race and gender, so to see the mask Annalise puts on every day and how she hides/compartmentalizes these issues is different. People who think they know her--who are close to her, thinks she's heartless and has no vulnerabilities, but when we see her alone, she's broken down and crying. 

 

Some victims of molestation deal with feeling unwanted/unclean/not good enough. Shonda felt the need to highlight Annalise's nighttime routine when she takes off he makeup, wigs, etc and looks at herself in the mirror. Where is her self love/self worth? She's said she's thought about killing herself everyday since she was five--when it happened. And the way her mother "death" with that was a house fire rather than talking to her Annalise, which Annalise resented her mom for because she thought her abuse was ignored. So, you have a long Annalise feeling that no one took her sexual abuse seriously and dealing with feeling unclean/unwanted/not good enough as she grew older. She's seeking approval and safety, but those toxic seeds were already planted and cultivated in her college/law career once she met Sam. Sure, I don't want her to have been further victimized, BUT it does have to people who were already preyed up by other victimizers. Sam provided safety and "approval", despite the beginnings of their relationship, I do believe if he'd been faithful, they're marriage would've been healthier. I believe Annalise genuinely loved him and I believe he cared (loved?) her, but wasn't a monogamous person. Due to the fact that Sam was unable to provide the stability she needed, Annalise just further down the rabbit hole. 

 

But, her being a victim of abuse and medical misconduct, doesn't make her any less of a strong black woman.

 

Did she yank Eve's chain? Eve already knew the game, but I think she was willing regardless of Annalise's motives. It's part Annalise is a manipulator, part they are allowing themselves to be manipulated. Rather than these people saying, "I don't need this in my life" they come back--whatever plans Annalise has brewing, they do half of the work for her, which is why I can't blame their shit and actions on her. At a certain point, people do what you allow. Connor doesn't want to come forward because he doesn't want to go to jail, if he's prepared to accept the consequences of his involvement, Annalise cannot manipulate him. Is she wrong? Yes, but that's not all on her.

 

I agree that Annalise's "normal" is toxic relationships, but part of that is on her.  I think she had equal responsibility in that destructive marriage.  He was cheating on her (surprise surprise, she cheated with him when he was married before), and she was cheating on him - and with a man with a sympathetic and dying wife.  I really think the writers chose these details for a reason.  I think I'm viewing the character how they want me to view her, and I don't have a problem with it.  I enjoy watching this very nuanced, and damaged, strong Black successful woman.  They're showing me enough guilt and torment in Annalise that I can view her as not quite a villain.  I also anticipate the character being redeemed, which is another cliché, but one I enjoy.

 

Both cheated, but I don't see it as a two way, or equal. I believe Annalise cheated because she was fed up with Sam's womanizing ways. I think she forgave him many times and just had enough and needed a secret, something for herself. You can correct me I'm wrong, but I think she admitted she was cheating to Sam and he was surprised. She wanted to feel desired and in control for once, in a long time, in her marriage and Nate was that. At the same time, I don't see Nate as all that of a sympathetic figure because, if he didn't have permission to see other women, no one forced him to hook up with Annalise. He was still cheated as well. He could've also stopped it. He continued until it landed him in jail. Going back to Sam, I think there are people who cheated because they can't be monogamous, and then there are people who cheated because, despite hurting their spouse, their world has been shaken by this other person--Annalise thought she was the latter. Annalise does contribute to her own toxicity, but I think this toxicity makes her actions more complex than manipulator, victimizer, etc. 

Edited October 25, 2015 by Nanrad

[Chicago Redshirt]

Nanrad, Anni had no idea about Rebecca trying to get intel off of Sam's computer.

 

It was Nate who concocted that plot with Rebecca.

[Nanrad]

Thanks, Chicago, I wasn't sure about that point.

[pennben]

These people are off the chain disturbed, every last one of them so, I just watch and enjoy.

 

Nods head vigorously!  This is one show where I start to try to think things through, get a headache and then I just say "nope", and hang on for the ride:)

[jhlipton]

I don't think Anna is protecting any of the K4 other than Wes.  If she was, when Connor said he wanted out, she would have found some other way to deal with that than blackmailing him.  

Connor, Laura and Michelea are not guilty in any way of Sam's death. Michelea pushed him, but that was completely by accident and didn't kill him any way.  What they are guilty of is buying Wes' BS which made them accessories and in way over their heads.

[krimimimi]

I don't think Anna is protecting any of the K4 other than Wes. If she was, when Connor said he wanted out, she would have found some other way to deal with that than blackmailing him.

Connor, Laura and Michelea are not guilty in any way of Sam's death. Michelea pushed him, but that was completely by accident and didn't kill him any way. What they are guilty of is buying Wes' BS which made them accessories and in way over their heads.

I'm not sure what her deal is with Wes, but I wish they'd decide on something and at least clue VD in, so her acting choices can be more even. I'd actually prefer if they reveal it to the audience sometime soon, too, so we don't end up with a Blacklist Red/Lizzie situation. Overdoing the hype until the reveal can't fail to disappoint isn't a clever way to go. And somewhere along the way, it invariably stops making sense.

Someone in a recent thread said that they felt Anni addressed each student in the way they were most likely to respond to, and this seems like another instance of just that to me.

I'm not sure the blackmailing of Connor is entirely a disservice. He was losing it, and she threatened him. The positive results for him are twofold: 1) he stops flailing about and has new direction and 2) he doesn't have to feel guilty about that direction, because she has "removed" his choice in the matter. In fact, she hasn't actually removed that choice, but she has made it more difficult to act by giving him the impression that any attempt to reveal the goings on in that house will also reveal his part in it. Karmically that's hardly unfair, and only changes his ability to act if he was planning on obscuring his role in the matter, which hardly seems noble or reflective of a truly guilty conscience.

As far as the innocence of 3 of the M4 are concerned, that is incorrect. A strong case can be made that they are all guilty of felony murder. Sam died during the commission of a crime. So that changes the parameters of Connor's problem.

[Fable]

I'm not sure what her deal is with Wes, but I wish they'd decide on something and at least clue VD in, so her acting choices can be more even. I'd actually prefer if they reveal it to the audience sometime soon, too, so we don't end up with a Blacklist Red/Lizzie situation. Overdoing the hype until the reveal can't fail to disappoint isn't a clever way to go. And somewhere along the way, it invariably stops making sense.

Someone in a recent thread said that they felt Anni addressed each student in the way they were most likely to respond to, and this seems like another instance of just that to me.

I'm not sure the blackmailing of Connor is entirely a disservice. He was losing it, and she threatened him. The positive results for him are twofold: 1) he stops flailing about and has new direction and 2) he doesn't have to feel guilty about that direction, because she has "removed" his choice in the matter. In fact, she hasn't actually removed that choice, but she has made it more difficult to act by giving him the impression that any attempt to reveal the goings on in that house will also reveal his part in it. Karmically that's hardly unfair, and only changes his ability to act if he was planning on obscuring his role in the matter, which hardly seems noble or reflective of a truly guilty conscience.

As far as the innocence of 3 of the M4 are concerned, that is incorrect. A strong case can be made that they are all guilty of felony murder. Sam died during the commission of a crime. So that changes the parameters of Connor's problem.

 

True, but it was a crime that they were unwilling participants in, couldn't that make a difference? 

Edited October 28, 2015 by Fable

[Chicago Redshirt]

Don't want to go on a rant here about felony murder. 

 

But to clarify, to be found guilty of felony murder requires that the person has knowingly agreed to be a participant in the underlying felony.

 

YMMV, but in my mind there is a pretty strong question as to any of the M4 agreeing to participate in the underlying felony here, Rebecca's breaking in to the Keating home and stealing data from Sam's computer.

 

We know that none of them knew in advance of Rebecca's plan to sneak in and steal the data. (Only Nate did, so funnily enough, he is guilty of murdering Sam.)

 

Rebecca lies and says she didn't find anything on Sam's computer. Do the M4 believe her? If so, they can't have the guilty mindset to participate in the theft of data from Sam's computer.

 

Assuming they believe that the flash drive has something stolen from Sam's computer, what is their intent in what happens next? To attempt to deprive Sam of the data or some other criminal intent? In such a case, they could be found guilty of felony murder. The trouble is there is not much evidence of this. Wes says something to the effect of "Get the flash drive" and Laurel does get it. Were they trying to do that to see if they could calm Sam down? Or for some other non-guilty mindset reason? If so, they would not be.

 

Neither Michaela nor Connor show no real evidence of the intent to help Rebecca get away with taking Sam's computer data. So I don't think that there is enough evidence to try to get either on felony murder.

 

Of course, this is largely moot, as their actions in the post-killing cover-up would make them look guilty. 

[jhlipton]

As far as the innocence of 3 of the M4 are concerned, that is incorrect. A strong case can be made that they are all guilty of felony murder. Sam died during the commission of a crime. So that changes the parameters of Connor's problem.

Of course, this is largely moot, as their actions in the post-killing cover-up would make them look guilty.

Up until Wes comes up with Anna's "solution", Connor and Mischalea are no more guilty than a patron would be during a bank robbery. It's only when they let Wes talk them into aiding him and Rebecca (who could be charged with murder) that they become accomplices.

Edited October 28, 2015 by jhlipton

[tokyobombshell]

This may sound odd, but I think Caleb Hapstall might be Annalise's son......

[secnarf]

This may sound odd, but I think Caleb Hapstall might be Annalise's son......

It's been discussed before, but he's definitely not the son from the pregnancy we are seeing in the flashbacks (ten years earlier), and based on several of Annalise's comments and her conversation with Eve last night, it sounds like she has never carried a pregnancy to term before.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm guessing Annalise experiences fetal distress and undergoes an emergency C-section.  The baby is either stillborn, or dies shortly after birth.  I'm guessing they will portray the tragedy as being brought on by Rose's death.  Therefore, Annalise will feel guilty, and Sam will blame her because she wouldn't slow down.  How interesting that this may be the true cause of why Annalise's marriage went south.  Maybe the infidelities were just a symptom.  Infertility, frequent miscarriages, and the death of a newborn would be difficult for even the strongest marriage to overcome.  I'm having a hard time watching Sam be so sweet and happy about the baby.  Why in the world are the writers going there?  Thus far they've made sure all the murders have been done to detestable people (excepting Lila, of course).

[secnarf]

I'm guessing Annalise experiences fetal distress and undergoes an emergency C-section.  The baby is either stillborn, or dies shortly after birth.  I'm guessing they will portray the tragedy as being brought on by Rose's death.  Therefore, Annalise will feel guilty, and Sam will blame her because she wouldn't slow down.  How interesting that this may be the true cause of why Annalise's marriage went south.  Maybe the infidelities were just a symptom.  Infertility, frequent miscarriages, and the death of a newborn would be difficult for even the strongest marriage to overcome.  I'm having a hard time watching Sam be so sweet and happy about the baby.  Why in the world are the writers going there?  Thus far they've made sure all the murders have been done to detestable people (excepting Lila, of course).

I agree with this - though I will be disappointed if they do go that route with the baby, it seems likely - but I don't really see Sam as being all that sweet/caring about the baby. He just always strikes me as fake. I suspect their marriage was already having problems at the point shown in the flashbacks. I don't buy that Sam just spilled something on his shirt, which means he lied/was hiding something, which gives me reason to question the sincerity/health of their relationship.

Sometimes, partners will blame the mothers for the miscarriage/premature birth/stillbirth/any pregnancy problems, and in the case of an abusive relationship, it can be much worse. I can totally believe Sam was sweet and caring when other people were in the house - and a jerk (possibly abusive) when they were alone.

[helenamonster]

I don't know how positive I am about their marriage turning to shit after whatever happens with the baby. Remember, Sam was married when he met Annalise. He also met Annalise because she was his patient. He's been skeevy since day one, way before this pregnancy. Maybe if the pregnancy had been successful and they'd raised the child, their marriage might have repaired itself (though I feel like bringing a child into an already rocky marriage makes things worse, not better), but he's always been awful. A psychiatrist who cheats on his wife with a patient, how much lower can you go?

[RedheadZombie]

I don't know how positive I am about their marriage turning to shit after whatever happens with the baby. Remember, Sam was married when he met Annalise. He also met Annalise because she was his patient. He's been skeevy since day one, way before this pregnancy. Maybe if the pregnancy had been successful and they'd raised the child, their marriage might have repaired itself (though I feel like bringing a child into an already rocky marriage makes things worse, not better), but he's always been awful. A psychiatrist who cheats on his wife with a patient, how much lower can you go?

Oh it's completely unethical for a psychiatrist to have an affair with a patient, or even former patient. But when this fact was revealed last season, I somehow thought he was her therapist when she was a teenager. I'm much relieved that it wasn't until her thirties. And of course cheating is always bad, but so many people do it.

ETA: I also thought Sam was significantly older, and treating her for the traumatic rape she had experienced as a child. Instead they're the same age (at least the actors are), and she was seeing him for her breakup with Eve. Still not great, but much less sleazy, IMO.

Edited March 6, 2016 by RedheadZombie

[helenamonster]

I just think it's sleazy for a psychiatrist to sleep with a patient no matter what their ages. Speaking to a therapist puts one in an incredibly vulnerable position, as you are telling them things that, a lot of the time, you're unable for one reason or another to tell anyone else. And the relationship is not reciprocal: a patient usually knows very little to absolutely nothing about the life of their psychiatrist. There's a huge power discrepancy and any psychiatrist who initiates a sexual relationship with a patient (or, conversely, doesn't do anything to discourage a patient initiating a sexual relationship with them) is a piece of shit, regardless of the ages or genders of the involved parties. There's a reason it's a huge breach of medical ethics and probable cause for having one's license revoked.

[secnarf]

Oh it's completely unethical for a psychiatrist to have an affair with a patient, or even former patient. But when this fact was revealed last season, I somehow thought he was her therapist when she was a teenager. I'm much relieved that it wasn't until her thirties. And of course cheating is always bad, but so many people do it.

ETA: I also thought Sam was significantly older, and treating her for the traumatic rape she had experienced as a child. Instead they're the same age (at least the actors are), and she was seeing him for her breakup with Eve. Still not great, but much less sleazy, IMO.

I'm a bit confused about this actually - earlier in the season, Eve says to Annalise, "you left me for your therapist". This implies she was seeing Sam while they were still together (presumably in their twenties, since they were dating in law school). But the most recent episode does seem to contradict this and imply that Annalise started seeing Sam after her and Eve broke up.

[muessigkeit]

I don't think that's necessarily a contradiction. It's pretty common that after a breakup the involved parties have different perspectives on how and why the relationship ended. If Annalise started dating Sam directly after Eve, Eve might see that as Annalise leaving her for him, while Annalise might have meant she felt the relationship had run its course before it officially ended. We also don't know how long Annalise had been in therapy before that relationship became sexual. I think the most logical way to reconcile the two different view points is: Annalise started seeing Sam in his function as her therapist when she was still with Eve (either because of her childhood, her sexuality or both). Then after a so far unknown amount of time Annalise fell in love with Sam (and out of love with Eve?) and instead of doing the ethical thing and discouraging her, Sam started a sexual relationship with her. Either shortly before or after that Annalise broke up with Eve. Then Sam left his wife and they made the relationship official.

Edited March 6, 2016 by muessigkeit

[Eolivet]

I hate this plot with the fire of a thousand burning nuns. It's the antithesis of everything this show is, to me.

 

I feel like this show is about the unexpected, the twists and turns, the morally ambiguous and grey. It thrives on a diet of shock and suspense. "What happened to the baby" is an eye-rolling plot more at home on Grey's Anatomy than here because there are only a couple solutions -- none of which are shocking or surprising:

 

--The baby died -- either from foul play (which is borderline unredeemable, even if this show, so I can't see them going there) or some terrible, late pregnancy/neonatal tragedy we've seen on other shows a thousand times and isn't in any way shocking or surprising given how they've lampshaded how much stress Annalise is experiencing.

--The baby lived and was put up for adoption/given to someone else -- which is also not exactly wild and crazy. Maybe it is for a married woman to do that, but adoption isn't exactly an OMG moment. Then either the baby is still living somewhere or it was adopted and then died, which is so random and odd, I wouldn't even know what to make of it.

 

I'm here for the OMG moments, the twists and turns, and all the "I didn't see that coming!" No matter what happens with the baby, we've all seen it coming a thousand times before on other shows. I just don't see why this plot was necessary at all, not even a little bit. It's bizarre and uncomfortable, and the last thing this show needs to do is make viewers more uncomfortable...or pretty soon, there will hardly be any left.

[Fredward]

I'm really, really, really, reeeaaallllyyyyy hoping the baby is dead (check that off my list of things I never expected to say) cuz I SERIOUSLY do not want a ten year old mini-Annalise popping up in the following seasons and mucking stuff up some more. It's more compelling, to me mind, to have what she currently has with Wes. That surrogate maternal instinct but she's also not his kids so there's also occasionally these Oedipus-y flashes which is discomfiting but also interesting. An actual child would just be a wrench in the works.

 

Plus I was toying with the idea of Annalise having smothered the kid [the way she seemed to struggle with the blanket hallucination and the initial period where she called him 'it' and seemed nervous about his wellbeing, most people read that as her being a concerned mom I was reading it as implicitly hoping that their WAS something wrong with him] or something but that's probably too dark.