How To Speculate w/o Spoilers: Hiding the Ball

[jvr]

4 hours ago, Aquarius97 said:

Rebecca was locked up in the basement because Sinclair appeared in the house, so Rebecca was last seen alive in the basement. 

Yes, I know that. But who from the K5 knew she had been down there before being killed by Bonnie? It just seems weird that Wes finds out Rebecca is dead dead and then hours later he is dead and Laurel is found in the basement.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jvr

[Eolivet]

I'm slow, so I just now figured out that whoever "snitched" on Annalise had to have a signed deal, right -- thus eliminating Wes because he walked out with his unsigned (and never said anything).

I'll go back to my gut for this show, which is: the killer is always who you think it is. In that case, the Mahoneys fit the bill. Given Annalise's long history with Wes, I think if any Keating 5/Keating 5-extended member killed Wes, even by accident, they're immediately the target of another Annalise burner phone request and the show loses another regular. Wes was Annalise atoning for her perceived sins all those years ago, so I have to believe she will be out for bear (once she's out of prison) in her quest to find his killer.

Wes killing himself would be awful, but I could also see it happening. Less so, because I think that would send Annalise into even more of a tailspin -- and I have to think that the end of the season will be about finally putting her past behind her (as much as she can).

[jsbt]

I guess I should quote myself on who killed Wes:

Quote

Frankly, my first thought was Laurel. He's going to flip on Annalise and that means they all go down. She loves him but she doesn't want to go to jail. Maybe it was an accident, just like Sam. It'll get blamed on the Mahoneys but it was someone much closer. Frank, Nate or the Mahoneys is not big enough game for this show (just as they weren't big enough game for who was #underthesheet), and Frank already killed Lila. It's someone inside and I think it's Laurel.

And yes, in this case I do think the way the show framed her arrival vs. the explosion was misleading, just like Wes' "flash-forward" proving he was supposedly alive and not under the sheet.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jsbt

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

Yes, I know that. But who from the K5 knew she had been down there before being killed by Bonnie? It just seems weird that Wes finds out Rebecca is dead dead and then hours later he is dead and Laurel is found in the basement.

From what I remember, all of them (aside from Asher because he wasn't part of it yet) knew about Rebecca being down there because I think they were all down there in the finale, interrogating her to make sure she wouldn't talk. Actually, the K4 had actually tied up Rebecca in a bathroom and Annalise got her put in the basement. I remember this because we saw Wes in the basement when Rebecca disappeared, staring at her empty chair when she had been tied up. I haven't watched the S1 finale in a while, so I had to look it up. 

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, Aquarius97 said:

Another thing I've been thinking of is the snitch. Having in count that Annalise has been arrested for the murder of Wes and arson, the snitch must be the one who killed Wes. At this point, all leads to Connor. I can't see Frank & Bonnie betraying in that way AK, and any other character wouldn't be an anonymous source (Atwood and Nate are DA workers)

I both like and hate the idea of Connor being the snitch. He's pretty angry about the entire situation he feels stuck in and with his relationship with Oliver on the rocks he might see it as a way out. Making Connor the snitch could also be a way to bring back Connor the bad boy. But if he is the snitch I see his killing Wes as accidental, like they got into a fight or something. However Connor was pretty drunk and his wherabouts are easily traced and verified. He was at the clinic, he went to Michaela's and then he hooked up with Thomas.

3 hours ago, jvr said:

Yes, I know that. But who from the K5 knew she had been down there before being killed by Bonnie? It just seems weird that Wes finds out Rebecca is dead dead and then hours later he is dead and Laurel is found in the basement.

They all knew she was in the basement except for Asher.

[Milaxx]

On 11/19/2016 at 11:24 AM, Dee said:

 

Empire's doing great. It has, in its third season, experienced a relative ratings erosion, as most other shows do (in their first seasons), but compared to HTGAWM's precipitous decline it's still doing relatively monster numbers.

 

There is an entire thread for discussing ratings. HERE

[jvr]

@Lady Calypso Thanks for looking it up. We need people like you to do the hard work for the lazy ones like me. That all sounds familiar.

@jsbt sigh, in my post above where I was eliminating people I just automatically dropped Laurel off but...the more people mention her the more I think it's possible. She really is the most psycho scary silent of the bunch (very calculating and manipulative)...and even in this ep she mentions some mental issues in her family (mother raised in a psych ward). But what's the timeline? How and why do you think she did it? Maybe Wes calls her from the precinct at some point and tells her he is going to talk and she says lets meet up and then she kills him? :|

I decided to stop being lazy for one second and rewatch the ep...Wes and Laurel are both at the clinic party and argue a few times about being charity cases, it's daylight outside. Wes gets a call from his lawyer and leaves to go the precinct. 

Next Laurel is with Michaela, Asher and Connor at her apartment dealing with her mom. They leave Michaela there and go back to the dorms to party more. Michaela is not a suspect at all.

Ana calls Wes after waking up from her alcohol nap, it's dusk, also dusk in the Bonnie/Frank scene... Wes is in the interrogation room and doesn't answer but looks at the phone when he gets the call (that means he got the call at night, we can't see any windows though..flashback says 4:22pm).

She then calls Oliver (you can see the window behind him showing its late). She immediately calls Laurel who is at the party, asks if she is with Wes, she says no, and then tells her to find everyone and get to her place (it's dusk looking or night in every window behind her). Laurel goes to grab Asher, he is wasted and passes out (she really shouldn't have left him there like that), Laurel looks for Connor but doesn't find him, he is just finishing sleeping with that guy. Connor leaves to go where? Maybe back to Michaela's but then why does he show up separate at the hospital? Nate pulls up to the house, its dark out...maybe not long after Ana left the house to go to Oliver. Oliver and Ana are together, Laurel shows up to the house alone (still dark)...text Wes (where are you?), then walks in the house (no key used), house blows up maybe 10 seconds later (she is calling for Ana the whole time, maybe 2 seconds of silence).

Ana and Oliver come to the home to meet up with the K5 and find her house blown up, Michaela is still home dealing with her mom. 

Oliver and Bonnie are at the hospital together. Frank is outside the house, Bonnie must have called him after getting the jailhouse call from Ana? Oliver calls Connors phone again, Michaela's mom picks up yada yada... anyway Michaela and Asher come to the hospital, she must have grabbed him from his room. Connor shows up on his own right after them...how the heck did he know where to go?

Flashback, Wes listens to Ana's call to come to the house (it's the exact message we heard her give when it was dusk), he listened to this later than the call (but not much later)...he gets up to leave....and it's daylight! Like bright daylight outside.....he passes by many windows and then of course we get the last scene of him going out the door into the sun. Everything that happens to Wes in this ep happens during the day...in the summer it could still be broad daylight out at 4:22pm but they were taking their midterms so its late October/Nov (probably fairly close to our time)...it gets dusk around that time and is pitch black by 6pm (once we lose daylight saving). Is this an error or am I confused?

So: 

1. How did Connor know to go to the hospital, he still doesn't have his phone. Maybe the news? 

2. The clock rolling back at the end goes from 2:59AM to 4:22PM when Wes supposedly got the call...it looks like he leaves immediately and since it's DAYLIGHT (lol) outside when he does there are lots of hours to kill him and stash the body in the house before Laurel gets there and the explosion. The house didn't blow until maybe 8-10pm.

3. What was Laurel doing from when they left Michaela's apartment (during the day) until she got the call from Ana? Just wandering around drinking at the dorms?

4. Maybe the daylight wasn't an error and he did leave during the day and so there were many hours, not just between 5pm and 10pm, to kill him and then stash his body in the house.

5. Maybe Wes sneaking out wasn't in reaction to the call from Ana, maybe he was leaving because someone else called him. I don't know! He still needs to be alive to hear that voicemail from Ana.

My head hurts. Someone poke holes in what I got.

[Milaxx]

Someone spliced together all the flashforwards. Maybe this will help. It's not doing anything for my addled brain.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Milaxx

[jsbt]

15 minutes ago, jvr said:

@jsbt sigh, in my post above where I was eliminating people I just automatically dropped Laurel off but...the more people mention her the more I think it's possible. She really is the most psycho scary silent of the bunch (very calculating and manipulative)...and even in this ep she mentions some mental issues in her family (mother raised in a psych ward). But what's the timeline? How and why do you think she did it?

If it's Laurel (and she is my number one suspect) then I think the editing and timeline are being deliberately cagey.

It seems that many viewers believe that the house blows seconds after Laurel enters. I don't buy that; I think it's a feint like the flash-forward we saw with Wes in the interrogation room. I think the period with Laurel entering and then the house exploding is more of the usual visual time-lapse footage we see in the editing often in this show. I think they are expecting the audience to take the timeline for granted based on that shot so no one will expect the grieving girlfriend and mother-to-be.

I think she found him there, they argued and she discovered he was flipping on Annalise and diming them all out. I think she panicked and they fought, perhaps she tries to stop or restrain him so as to talk him out of it. I don't think she would ever intentionally kill him. I think his death was likely an accident a la Wes and Sam; maybe she didn't even know he was dead before the house exploded for other reasons unrelated to the two of them. That would explain why she frantically scribbles 'WES' - she not only knows he was there, she knows that he's hurt. Her actions in the ER do not appear to be those of someone who already knows he was dead when she got there, or of someone who premeditated anything and is trying to cover her tracks. She only definitely knows he's dead when she and Meggie see the news report.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jsbt

[jvr]

Putting all of that together was very nice of someone...didn't help much lol. It did remind me that Michaela was shown trying to find Asher and shows her getting to his dorm and grabbing his goofy ass. Also confirms no one got Connor, he just got to the hospital somehow on his own with no phone.

The charges against Anna were arson and murder...but that literally just happened...so the person who gave them the tip has to be the one who did it... I was thinking another possibility was maybe the bomb was put there to kill Anna but that doesn't seem to fit.

@jsbt Your scenario matches mine where I say Connor did it by accident in a fight...but I can't see him killing someone and then having sex with that dude. It would have had to have been before the hookup.

It's definitely not Michaela or Asher. That still leaves a lot of people lol.

[DearEvette]

I was ding too much speculating over in the main thread so thought I bring it here.  @Aquarius97 pointed out a lot of the stuff I did especially with the timeline. 

There has to be a reason why Annalise called Wes at 4:22 but didn't call Laurel til much, much later.  But her plans got messed up in some way.  It is interesting that Wes was in the basement, the same place where Rebecca was held.  I can;t help but think the Rebecca thing has more resonance in Wes' death that we might know.  Could it be that they were trying to erase all evidence of Rebecca in that basement and something went wrong.

I find it so fascinating that they were bringing this all back to the original stuff in S1.

29 minutes ago, jvr said:

Ana calls Wes after waking up from her alcohol nap, it's dusk,

Is it dusk?  The house looks dark because all the blinds are drawn but I think sunlight is peeking through the blinds.  Whatever the case, the timeline is deliberately wonky just so I think they will fill in all the blanks after the hiatus.

Edited November 20, 2016 by DearEvette

[jsbt]

Oh, I think they're going to push Connor, Bonnie, Frank and Nate as suspects - Connor especially - all to distract from Laurel. The savvier members of the audience will expect it to be someone big and not as dispensable as Nate or the Mahoneys, or as obvious as Bonnie or Frank. The strategy will be to make them look at Connor, who directly threatened Wes, and never look at Laurel.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I think she found him there, they argued and she discovered he was flipping on Annalise and diming them all out. 

Wait a minute, do the Keating-5 doesn't know for sure what happened to Rebecca do they? The only people who know that she's dead by Bonnie's hands in Anna right?  Does Frank know too?

Also, Wes had no idea why he was asked to come to the police station, poor thing. I also don't think he was going to dime on Anna, he was crossing shit out left and right on that deal to buy time I think.  And you know he was pissed and didn't want to do anything to hurt Anna and rest as he fired his attorney. I'm still fine with him being gone, but again, his life was so tragic and he never really seemed happy up until his little thing with Laurel. But then even that ended with an argument and him questioning whether what he had with Laurel was just her working out her childhood issues. Quite frankly, I agreed with him, Laurel is still about Frank sorry, she truly did care about Wes, but the passion and being stuck on Frank was definitely still there. 

Poor, but yes annoying Wes.

And this angle on Laurel being the one who killed him may be the case because when she woke up and wrote his name on that paper, she definitely seemed like she remembered where she saw him last and did he make it out alive. Meanwhile Meggy is telling her that she'd contact him, I got from the way Laurel was acting, that she was trying to communicate that she knew exactly where he was. So she hitting him to stop him, then falling over him and trying to make sure she didn't kill him, them the house blowing up, makes sense to me too.

The mental illness in her family, this was not the first time it was mentioned. I know I heard her mention it earlier in the season when she was arguing with her father. That's when I realized that the woman in the previous season who was sitting at the table during during her family holiday was her stepmother. I didn't realize that until this season when she and her father argued and he apologized for having to commit her mother and noting that she didn't like said stepmother because of it.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[jsbt]

12 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I was ding too much speculating over in the main thread so thought I bring it here.  @Aquarius97 pointed out a lot of the stuff I did especially with the timeline. 

There has to be a reason why Annalise called Wes at 4:22 but didn't call Laurel til much, much later.  But her plans got messed up in some way.  It is interesting that Wes was in the basement, the same place where Rebecca was held.  I can;t help but think the Rebecca thing has more resonance in Wes' death that we might know.  Could it be that they were trying to erase all evidence of Rebecca in that basement and something went wrong.

I find it so fascinating that they were bringing this all back to the original stuff in S1.

Maybe she calls him over there and tells him what happened to Rebecca, or a version of it, hoping to keep him locked down. Maybe she blames it on someone other than Bonnie. (I honestly don't remember how much he knows - I think maybe it got pinned on Frank?) Pulls him in deeper. Wes stays there, maybe broods. Laurel arrives, they fight, shit happens. House goes boom.

And yes, I think Rebecca is the reason all of this happens to Wes, including him turning on them.

9 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wait a minute, do the Keating-5 doesn't know for sure what happened to Rebecca do they? The only people who know that she's dead by Bonnie's hands in Anna right?  Does Frank know too?

I get lost in some of the minutiae and triple-crossing on this show so maybe he had some other intent with the cops, but AFAIK Wes was agreeing to flip on Annalise presumably because they mentioned Rebecca Sutter. That was her body found in the woods, right?

The way I saw it, the minute the cops revealed they'd found her body Wes put two and two together and figured out there was more behind Rebecca's demise than meets the eye. He didn't know everything, but he suspected enough to be willing to drop a dime on Keating and therefore the others. Discovering that any of them had a hand in killing Rebecca and covering it up would be beyond the pale for him and probably the only thing that could get him to turn state's and be their anonymous source on the Keating Five.

His weakness for Rebecca was his original sin and it supercedes even his relationship with Laurel. He would not have listened to her if she found him at the house and begged him to drop it. He would lump her in with everyone else potentially guilty of killing Rebecca. They argue, they struggle, he dies.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jsbt

[Keepitmoving]

4 minutes ago, jsbt said:

Maybe she calls him over there and tells him what happened to Rebecca, or a version of it, hoping to keep him locked down. Maybe she blames it on someone other than Bonnie. Pulls him in deeper. Wes stays there, maybe broods. Laurel arrives, they fight, shit happens. House goes boom.

And yes, I think Rebecca is the reason all of this happens to Wes, including him turning on them.

I get lost in some of the minutiae and triple-crossing on this show so maybe he had some other intent with the cops, but AFAIK Wes was agreeing to flip on Annalise presumably because they mentioned Rebecca Sutter. That was her body found in the woods, right?

The way I saw it, the minute the cops revealed they'd found her body Wes put two and two together and figured out there was more behind Rebecca's demise than meets the eye. He didn't know everything, but he suspected enough to be willing to drop a dime on Keating and therefore the others. Discovering that any of them had a hand in killing Rebecca and covering it up would be beyond the pale for him and probably the only thing that could get him to turn state's and be their anonymous source on the Keating Five.

His weakness for Rebecca was his original sin and it supercedes even his relationship with Laurel. He would not have listened to her if she found him at the house and begged him to drop it. He would lump her in with everyone else potentially guilty of killing Rebecca. They argue, they struggle, he dies.

Shit, if it's Laurel, she's turning into Bonnie 2.0, as in whatever it takes LOL. If it is her, then I really do hope that baby turns out to be Franks, that is if that baby makes it into the light of day.

[jsbt]

No, Bonnie was totally in control when she killed Rebecca. I think if Laurel killed Wes, it was like (in a great bit of symmetry) Wes killing Sam - an accident during a struggle. I think she loves him and wanted him to calm down and things got out of hand. Then the house blows up because of Frank or Nate, who probably have no idea what happened.

[DearEvette]

17 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wait a minute, do the Keating-5 doesn't know for sure what happened to Rebecca do they? The only people who know that she's dead by Bonnie's hands in Anna right?  Does Frank know too?

No They don't know.  Ana lied to them that Rebecca left.  She did taunt Wes about Rebecca being dead whens he tried to get him to shoot her in Hapstall mansion, but when he asked her it if were true she said no.  Only Bonnie, Ana and Frank know for sure.

Wes always suspected that Frank killed Rebecca but he had no real proof.  And even though the rest of the K5 might have gone along, when they found the storage locker with only money in that suitcase (and not Rebecca's body), they abandoned the idea and just chalked it up to Wes' strange obsession with Rebecca and decided he was on his own.  Laurel knows Frank is capable of it.  But no one suspected Bonnie at all.

Edited November 20, 2016 by DearEvette

[jsbt]

IIRC, Wes was also angry because he perceived AK and co. as shielding Frank in the last episode or so, bringing him back into the fold to save their hides. If he blames Frank specifically for Rebecca's death that's even more motive to flip.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

And yes, I think Rebecca is the reason all of this happens to Wes, including him turning on them.

And it's a damn shame because if there ever were a story that was in NO WAY a love story, it's the one between Wes and Rebecca. Not an ounce of chemistry, I mean WTF? I guess he was having a savior complex and the fact that she came from nothing and had no parents just like him, maybe that was the connection. But boy, nothing. Same with Laurel, I got nothing, nothing, just friendship,  I just didn't see the hotness nor chemistry.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

I mean really, this dark path for Wes truly starts with his parentage, that father of his raping his mother. It was rape right? He was raping and black mailing her in terms of her immigration status right? I mean, he never had a chance. I guess we could say Anna trying to do something good and make sure he got into the program, but then what am I talking about. Nobody forced Wes to get attached to Rebecca, that was all on him, so I'm right back to Wes causing his own downward spiral.

I'm not even going to full blame Nate for sending Rebecca into that house, although he is a cop and she was a vulnerable suspect so... who are you going trust in that situation when you have no one? He told her to go into Anna's house and get, I can't remember, but it was something off Sam's computer right? She followed law enforcement's orders right?

Edited November 20, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

25 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Is it dusk?  The house looks dark because all the blinds are drawn but I think sunlight is peeking through the blinds.  Whatever the case, the timeline is deliberately wonky just so I think they will fill in all the blanks after the hiatus.

Don't get to married to that. It's dayight savings time on the East coast. It' can literally be broad daylight at 4pm and pitch black by 4:30pm.

 

24 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wait a minute, do the Keating-5 doesn't know for sure what happened to Rebecca do they? The only people who know that she's dead by Bonnie's hands in Anna right?  Does Frank know too?

AK knows and Frank figured it out and called her on it after AK had him dispose of Rebecca's body. The only one of the K5 to know for sure would have been Wes and maybe Oliver if he discovered it when he hacked the DA's office.

29 minutes ago, jsbt said:

Oh, I think they're going to push Connor, Bonnie, Frank and Nate as suspects - Connor especially - all to distract from Laurel. The savvier members of the audience will expect it to be someone big and not as dispensable as Nate or the Mahoneys, or as obvious as Bonnie or Frank. The strategy will be to make them look at Connor, who directly threatened Wes, and never look at Laurel.

I wouldn't rule the Mahoney's out just yet. They somehow keep popping back up like a bad penny.

15 minutes ago, jsbt said:

No, Bonnie was totally in control when she killed Rebecca. I think if Laurel killed Wes, it was like (in a great bit of symmetry) Wes killing Sam - an accident during a struggle. I think she loves him and wanted him to calm down and things got out of hand. Then the house blows up because of Frank or Nate, who probably have no idea what happened.

Regardless of who killed Wes, my money is on Frank as being the one who set the explosion that started the fire. 

1 minute ago, Keepitmoving said:

I mean really, this dark path for Wes truly starts with his parentage, that father of his raping his mother. It was rape right? He was raping and black mailing her in terms of her immigration status right? I mean, he never had a chance. I guess we could say Anna trying to do something good and make sure he got into the program, but then what am I talking about. Nobody forced Wes to get attached to Rebecca, that was all on him, so I'm right back to Wes causing his own downward spiral.

Yes he raped her was holding her immigration status and threatening Christophe( child Wes) to make her testify and provide an alibi for Charles. Can you imagine the mega ton of guilt AK will have over his death? She inadvertently cause his mother to kill herself. Then she takes him off the waitlist thinking she can help him by getting him in to law school . Breaks her own rule and instead of taking on 4 students, adds Wes to the mix and takes in 5. Everything that has happened to him since is as a result of being "helped" by AK and now he's dead as a result. Sure we can see Wes made his own bad decision to try and save Rebecca but I'm pretty certain AK will only blame herself.

[jsbt]

5 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I wouldn't rule the Mahoney's out just yet. They somehow keep popping back up like a bad penny.

Regardless of who killed Wes, my money is on Frank as being the one who set the explosion that started the fire. 

The Mahoneys make a great red herring. But it's not enough of a shock for the audience or a seismic shift in the show. Everyone is looking at the Mahoneys or Frank or Bonnie, and at this point all those choices would be very superficial - the Mahoneys are stock villains, and Frank and Bonnie are known perps who would not hesitate. The show always goes for a bigger payoff that re-frames the narrative. That's the reason they went with Wes/the original four killing Sam as opposed to a recurring player or Rebecca; that's the reason they had Sam and Frank be responsible for Lila and had Bonnie kill Rebecca; that's the reason they went with Wes shooting Annalise; that's the reason they killed Wes. They play for keeps with these reveals, for the most part. What gives Laurel more purpose going forward? Being Wes' heartbroken lover who may still be pregnant and stuck with a cumbersome baby storyline as her major plot thread (or did she lose it already? I can't remember)? Or being his lover - who may be carrying his child - who killed him?

And yeah, I assume Frank started the fire. It's doubly poetic because it's her past lover who (accidentally) nearly kills Laurel and burns Wes' body. I wouldn't be surprised if he is the only one she turns to with the truth about Wes.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jsbt

[Keepitmoving]

Deleted.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[JaggedLilPill]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

I also don't think he was going to dime on Anna, he was crossing shit out left and right on that deal to buy time I think.

Me either.

I think they want us to believe that Rebecca once again triggered his anger enough for him to flip, but then why fire his attorney? Why leave the station? Why stall at all?

Plus, as much as the cops and the DA want to bury Annalise, I can't fathom them being okay with Wes jerking them around regarding the verbiage, sneaking out, and then popping back up later (assuming that was his plan) and being all "Hey guys! Now I'm ready." I'm not sure they'd be willing to negotiate with him anymore. I suppose they still could, but he'd be taking a chance when he was already promised immunity. 

If anything, I think whoever it was that killed Wes (unless he really did kill himself and who could blame him?) thinks that he flipped - or is still planning to - and either it's accidental or intentional depending on the person.

If it's Laurel, I see her going down a dark path. I do think she genuinely loves Wes and even if he wasn't going to be The One, I would say he was to her what she was to him, a best friend. 

Then again, who knows? LOL. I was so sure Meggy was a damn plant or up to no good. I was all ready to see her pull up a bar stool next to the DA or someone else who felt screwed over by Annalise and/or the K5. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Then again, who knows? LOL. I was so sure Meggy was a damn plant or up to no good. I was all ready to see her pull up a bar stool next to the DA or someone else who felt screwed over by Annalise and/or the K5. 

This one has got me, what was the point of her character?  There's has got to be more, like is she going to be Laurel's new love interest and they raise baby Wes together?  I mean recurring characters on this show are there for a bigger punch than this Meggy, what is going on? I mean was it so Laurel had a doctor who knew her when she landed in the hospital, hell no, that can't be it. Did Wes seriously need a girlfriend before the Laurel hookup? I say no, again.  What? Was it  to show that he just had to have Laurel that he would drop what seemed to be  very nice young lady and what looked to be an all around good catch, yeah right, no that "ain't" it. Why? Because once again, Wes and Laurel is not some great love story, there was a connection, she cared for him deeply, but her heart and whatever else is still partly with Frank. So it can't be that they had to set him up with a girlfriend just so he could dump her to prove that Laurel was his one true love, no.  Or maybe that was it, on his end anyway, since he claimed that he liked her from day one but thought she was out of his league, but again, to play that angle you don't need Meggy. Laurel and Wes were starting some up since last season when they kissed right?  Meggy must have more punch than this to come.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

This one has got me, what was the point of her character?  There's has got to be more, like is she going to be Laurel's new love interest and they raise baby Wes together?  I mean recurring characters on this show are there for a bigger punch than this Meggy, what is going on? I mean was it so Laurel had a doctor who knew her when she landed in the hospital, hell no, that can't be it. Did Wes seriously need a girlfriend before the Laurel hookup? I say no, again.  What? Was it  to show that he just had to have Laurel that he would drop what seemed to be  very nice young lady and what looked to be an all around good catch, yeah right, no that "ain't" it. Why? Because once again, Wes and Laurel is not some great love story, there was a connection, she cared for him deeply, but her heart and whatever else is still partly with Frank. So it can't be that they had to set him up with a girlfriend just so he could dump her to prove that Laurel was his one true love, no.  Or maybe that was it, on his end anyway, since he claimed that he liked her from day one but thought she was out of his league, but again, to play that angle you don't need Meggy. Laurel and Wes were starting some up since last season when they kissed right?  Meggy must have more punch than this to come.

Ive read some speculation that Atwood is Meggy's Aunt as Meggy once told Wes that her aunt was a lawyer (and they are both black women). 

Personally, I could not care less if Meggy, Hargrove, Simon all dissapeared.  Atwood is the only new/recurring character I want more of; the actress doing a great job at the 'single black female' angle.  

[Milaxx]

I'm still wondering if Atwood is the "aunt who is a lawyer" that Meggy mentioned. If so then as Atwood gets more desperate to get info on AK she may try and find out what info Meggy has. Especially if the K5 stay in touch with her in the aftermath of Wes's death.

I kinda wouldn't mind if Simon stuck around. He's good for a laugh.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Milaxx

[Happytobehere]

5 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Someone spliced together all the flashforwards. Maybe this will help. It's not doing anything for my addled brain.

Actually, looking at it with a greater understanding of what actually happened.  I can believe them making Laurel Wes's killer is a possibility.  She is clearly frantic about Wes, but when Meggy mentions Wes giving her a call, she starts crying.  Now on its face, if you believe she just saw Wes in the house, this could account for the tears or maybe the thought of hearing from Wes calm her and brings tears because they fought and she realizes then how much Wes' presence matters to her.  However, with the last interaction we saw between them being the fight followed by the calls, it is possible for this scene to take on new meaning.  We have hours on Wes's end unaccounted for.  Laurel reached out to him repeatedly via phone/text.  What if they do connect, Wes tells her he is turning on Annalise because of Rebecca.  They argue (remember, even though we know Bonnie killed her, Laurel does know that Frank is somehow a part of whatever happened, suspecting Frank's involvement in Rebecca's death is what lead to her spying on Frank and his Lila confession, would it be beyond the pale for Laurel to assume Frank guilty here, especially since she knows Frank also killed Mahoney), she pushes Wes in anger/desperation, or maybe pulls away from Wes causing him to fall back.  Wes dies, even if Laurel does not know it and the house explodes (I like others don't believe for one minute that the timeframe we were given on Laurel entering the house and the explosion is accurate).  So now, the tears over Meggy saying Wes would call her takes on a new and sadder meaning because Laurel now has to wonder what would have happened if Wes didn't respond to her and they did not meet up.  Add to that the pregnancy (assuming Wes is the father), which her drinking makes clear she was unaware of and now you have a life shifting moment to propel Laurel's character throughout the course of the show, especially if she loses the baby, and even more so if she carries to term -- how does she live with that guilt and how does she raise her child knowing that one day her child will know why its bio dad is not there.  If she gives the child up, she has to deal with that potential knock on her door one day and the fallout from that.

Do I think the Mahoneys, possibly Atwood, Rebecca's brother, or any number of other suspects could be behind what happened, especially if the Laurel entering the house timeline is correct, which would support the notion that the killer assumed Annalise was returning home, Yes.  This does beg the question of whether the person who blew up the house also killed Wes, but one thing at a time.  If the latter happened, I can see Connor both as the snitch and Wes' killer, but no the person who blew up the house.  I do however now see the show making a strong case for Laurel as Wes' killer with someone else causing the explosion.

[Tiger]

6 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

Actually, looking at it with a greater understanding of what actually happened.  I can believe them making Laurel Wes's killer is a possibility.  She is clearly frantic about Wes, but when Meggy mentions Wes giving her a call, she starts crying.  Now on its face, if you believe she just saw Wes in the house, this could account for the tears or maybe the thought of hearing from Wes calm her and brings tears because they fought and she realizes then how much Wes' presence matters to her.  However, with the last interaction we saw between them being the fight followed by the calls, it is possible for this scene to take on new meaning.  We have hours on Wes's end unaccounted for.  Laurel reached out to him repeatedly via phone/text.  What if they do connect, Wes tells her he is turning on Annalise because of Rebecca.  They argue (remember, even though we know Bonnie killed her, Laurel does know that Frank is somehow a part of whatever happened, suspecting Frank's involvement in Rebecca's death is what lead to her spying on Frank and his Lila confession, would it be beyond the pale for Laurel to assume Frank guilty here, especially since she knows Frank also killed Mahoney), she pushes Wes in anger/desperation, or maybe pulls away from Wes causing him to fall back.  Wes dies, even if Laurel does not know it and the house explodes (I like others don't believe for one minute that the timeframe we were given on Laurel entering the house and the explosion is accurate).  So now, the tears over Meggy saying Wes would call her takes on a new and sadder meaning because Laurel now has to wonder what would have happened if Wes didn't respond to her and they did not meet up.  Add to that the pregnancy (assuming Wes is the father), which her drinking makes clear she was unaware of and now you have a life shifting moment to propel Laurel's character throughout the course of the show, especially if she loses the baby, and even more so if she carries to term -- how does she live with that guilt and how does she raise her child knowing that one day her child will know why its bio dad is not there.  If she gives the child up, she has to deal with that potential knock on her door one day and the fallout from that.

Do I think the Mahoneys, possibly Atwood, Rebecca's brother, or any number of other suspects could be behind what happened, especially if the Laurel entering the house timeline is correct, which would support the notion that the killer assumed Annalise was returning home, Yes.  This does beg the question of whether the person who blew up the house also killed Wes, but one thing at a time.  If the latter happened, I can see Connor both as the snitch and Wes' killer, but no the person who blew up the house.  I do however now see the show making a strong case for Laurel as Wes' killer with someone else causing the explosion.

I still really think Connor is THE rat and has been working with Atwood for some time.  One of the big reasons is I keep coming back to Oliver recognizing Nate.  I think he saw Nate and Connor meeting to hand over evidence, etc.,

I think what will happen is the characters and audiance will be made aware that Connor was missing for a good chunk of time, he will be acting shady, he'll be accused of killing Wes, and then he'll reveal he's been working with the cops for months.

[starri]

10 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I still really think Connor is THE rat and has been working with Atwood for some time.  One of the big reasons is I keep coming back to Oliver recognizing Nate.  I think he saw Nate and Connor meeting to hand over evidence, etc.,

I don't think he was recognizing Nate so much as checking him out.  Which, I think we all would.

[Keepitmoving]

17 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I still really think Connor is THE rat and has been working with Atwood for some time.  One of the big reasons is I keep coming back to Oliver recognizing Nate.  I think he saw Nate and Connor meeting to hand over evidence, etc.,

I think what will happen is the characters and audiance will be made aware that Connor was missing for a good chunk of time, he will be acting shady, he'll be accused of killing Wes, and then he'll reveal he's been working with the cops for months.

Now I could buy Connor being the rat for sure, especially with that swipe at Anna a few episodes ago when they confronted her and he said something to effect of maybe we'll find out you are not as smart as you'd like us to think you are. But could he know where Rebecca was buried? I guess it's enough to know that she was being held in Anna's basement for starters.  But why would Connor even want to take the chance of bringing the police in on anything seeing his fear of even having his named mentioned in connection with Sam? Maybe he got the same deal that Wes was trying to get. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Happytobehere]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Shit, if it's Laurel, she's turning into Bonnie 2.0, as in whatever it takes LOL. If it is her, then I really do hope that baby turns out to be Franks, that is if that baby makes it into the light of day.

Why, so it can be genetically linked to sociopaths via both bloodlines?  There is no way in hell the product of a Frank and Laurel union isn't Jeffrey Dahmering it up by the time he/she hits twenty.

[wanderingstar]

Here are the questions I have after the finale:

1. How did Wes get from the police station to the house?
2. What time did he get to the house, and who did he see when he got there?
3. How did Nate escape the house without a scratch?
4. Who was the anonymous tipper that got Annalise arrested (and is that even legal, after all, they have no evidence she started the fire at her house)?
5. Where did Connor go after he left Thomas’ place?
6. What did Oliver find when he hacked the DA’s office on Annalise’s orders?
7. What did Oliver wipe off Annalise’s phone?
8. Where was Frank in the midst of all this? We went from seeing Bonnie tell him to fall on his sword to seeing him at the scene of the fire, but we have no    idea where he was during that time.
9. What is Atwood’s role in all this? I would not put it past her to fabricate evidence to implicate Annalise (which would be highly ironic)

Edited November 21, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Keepitmoving]

4 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

Why, so it can be genetically linked to sociopaths via both bloodlines?  There is no way in hell the product of a Frank and Laurel union isn't Jeffrey Dahmering it up by the time he/she hits twenty.

Oh well, I said I hoped it was Frank's if she was responsible even though it may not have been malicious, but a mistake, of killing Wes. Also, Anna having to watch Frank's seed growing and waiting to be born, knowing the role he played in the death of her unborn child would be far more of an interesting angle. Because this show at this point is not for cooing all over Wes's baby, like aw, we still have a piece of Wes, yeah, I'm not seeing any use for that in this sinister land that is this show. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[JaggedLilPill]

I can see it now. The spin-off for a Frank/Laurel kid: How to Get Away with Being a Teenage Murderer. I kid....sort of. 

[Milaxx]

30 minutes ago, starri said:

I don't think he was recognizing Nate so much as checking him out.  Which, I think we all would.

THIS! The only thing missing was the drool.

24 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Now I could buy Connor being the rat for sure, especially with that swipe at Anna a few episodes ago when they confronted her and he said something to effect of maybe we'll find out you are not as smart as you'd like us to think you are. But could he know where Rebecca was buried? I guess it's enough to know that she was being held in Anna's basement for starters.  But why would Connor even want to take the chance of bringing the police in on anything seeing his fear of even having his named mentioned in connection with Sam? Maybe he got the same deal that Wes was trying to get. 

The only person who knows where Rebecca was buried is Frank. AK had him get rid of her and didn't want to know where or how.

[Keepitmoving]

11 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

I can see it now. The spin-off for a Frank/Laurel kid: How to Get Away with Being a Teenage Murderer. I kid....sort of. 

Or it could be called "Nature vs. Nurture" where Frank and Laurel turn into Leave It to Beaver type parents, their kid having not a clue of the people they use to be, but still, he/she turns into serial killer. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[possibilities]

I don't know who I think makes the best murderer or arsonist at the moment, but the idea that Wes would snitch and then go to Annalise's house after, or tell ANY of the others about it, is just not believable to me. If you turn them in, you stay away. You hide out somewhere, leave town, or at minimum evade their calls and keep mum about what's happening. You don't show up for the next meeting of the conspirators, and inform them that you're who's sending them all to jail. Wes has made mistakes, but he's not that flat out stupid. C'mon.

I also don't think he'd be committing suicide the same day he was getting blanket immunity. Why go to the trouble of seeking immunity if you are planning to kill yourself in a couple of hours? It doesn't make sense. It's not like he was refused the immunity and went into a panic. Or if he was, we didn't see it. I guess it's possible, but so far I don't see anything to suggest that.

[Milaxx]

You could indeed plan to snitch and show up,. You're simply not going to announce you're snitching.  Asher did it when he was snitching to Sinclair. My guess is part of Wes's immunity deal would have been the promise of anonymity.

[possibilities]

But people are speculating that Laurel got into a fight with Wes because he showed up and told her he was turning them in and she got upset and began trying to convince him to change his mind (or that Connor found out that he was snitching and killed him to stop it from happening). I just don't think Wes is going to tell the very people he's turning against that he's doing it.

If he showed up and said nothing, they wouldn't know and wouldn't have a reason to suddenly decide to kill him.

I suppose it's possible that Oliver hacked the DA's office, found out Wes was the snitch, and told someone (or killed Wes himself), but what was being speculated is that WES told them himself and they got mad. I just don't think that's sensible.

My contention is that either the deal is anonymous and no one knows (so no motive to kill him), or it's anonymous and they know because of a hack or a leak (but not from Wes himself), or Wes is not the snitch, or he is the snitch but it's not anonymous and because they know about it, Wes does not show up at the meeting.

[Keepitmoving]

Wait a minute, isn't the snitch tied to Rebecca's murder? That to me is the original snitch, the one who alerted the cops that there was a Rebecca case to even look into and that's not Wes. The cops arrested Anna on the arson right? Which I still don't get because the fire was still burning and there wasn't even any forensic people yet able to collect evidence and conclude, oh yeah, this is arson.  Just because a house is on fire and people were trapped, one injured the other dead does not automatically mean foul play. I don't know where  they get off arresting her.  They had the Rebecca angle before the fire, so someone had to snitch about that right?  And Wes had no idea that the cops had anything on Rebecca's death until he got there. As a matter a fact, when the lawyer called him he was confused, he had no idea what it could be or why he would need to come down to the station. So the snitch can't be Wes, that doesn't make sense to me. Now someone setting him up so that he looks like the snitch... He didn't know anything, he was surprised to see the Rebecca file when they threw it on the table. 

 

Quote

But people are speculating that Laurel got into a fight with Wes because he showed up and told her he was turning them in and she got upset and began trying to convince him to change his mind (or that Connor found out that he was snitching and killed him to stop it from happening). I just don't think Wes is going to tell the very people he's turning against that he's doing it.

But in Wes's mind I think he would think, that he would ultimately only be turning in Frank and he would confide in Laurel. Next to Anna, Laurel is who he's been confiding in and they've formed their little click away from Connor, Michaela and Asher. 

It's very clear that Wes wanted Frank out of the way, the last scenes with Laurel you can tell he's jealous and doesn't buy that Laurel is fully into him, that she's working through her mommy issues through him, trying to fix/protect him. Then she brings up Rebecca, storms off and he gets that call. He gets down the station and unbeknownst to him it's all about Rebecca. I could see him and Laurel at the house, him convinced that Frank killed Rebecca, cause that's what Frank does for Anna, also telling her that he killed Anna's baby and trying to convince Laurel that it would be good to snitch so that they could get rid of Frank. Laurel wasn't going to go for that, because Laurel still loves Frank, but Wes isn't having it, and he doesn't know that Bonnie killed Rebecca. 

 I think Connor is involved in some way, that argument he gave for the final exam says it all, something about repressed rage of something to that effect. He's gotta a lot of that and channeling it inside of Thomas to get back and Oliver, I don't think did the job at all.  And how did he know that someone was dead, when he rolls up at the hospital he just immediately asks who's dead?  I mean what else  is he going to be doing for the rest  of the season, he's gotta have more to do with this whole shebang, they didn't have him threaten Wes, just to throw us off did they? I don't think so, so he may not have killed him but he could very well be the snitch.  I mean he doesn't know what happened to Rebecca but he still thinks she's out there and he damn well knows that they were hiding her in Anna's basement. So if Atwood approached him then...yeah, he would sing like a canary, without hesitation if it could save his ass. 

I will say this, out of all the Keating-5 Laurel and Connor are both on the record stating no objections to getting Anna out of their lives.  Michaela is constantly on the fence because she admired her and does not want to hate her, nothing much from Asher, and Wes did not share the same sentiment with Laurel when Laurel was kind of happy that she might get fired and lose her license. She was relieved to think that Anna would then be out of their lives. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[J.D.]

My guess as to what happened is 'crooked cops.'  I'm guessing the cops ultimately gave Wes the deal he was after (which, of course, we would have yet to see), but then after granting him full immunity (or whatever he wanted) they decided to renege.  They probably had him followed, saw him go to Annalise's house, figured he'd break down and confess what he'd done if given half the chance, and so they killed him.... and what better place to kill Annalise's snitch then in Annalise's own home so they could frame her for the murder?

As someone here previously stated, how could they have had enough evidence to arrest Annalise when the house hadn't even stopped burning?  I'm guessing they had all the evidence they needed from Wes' statement and now that Wes turned up dead in Annalise's still-burning home, they had enough to make an arrest.

Since Annalise herself had called Laurel to the house, I'm guessing that her being there had nothing to do with Wes' murder nor the fire.

That's my theory at the moment.  I don't believe any of the remaining Keating 5 are involved.  I do think by showing Nate's arrive at Annalise's shortly before the fire, TPTB are trying to make us think that Nate's involved.

[Eolivet]

I'm enjoying all the Keating 4 murderer theories (especially the Laurel ones), but I keep coming back to the fact that Wes was almost like Annalise's second son. I will be shocked if she finds out she knows who killed Wes and protects them -- even if his death was accidental. I just can't see it. Wes was separate from the Keating 4 for a reason. In my mind, she's not going to even grudgingly cover for his killer, even if they could turn her in. She'll go to prison right along with them.

This is why I'd actually prefer it was the Mahoneys. I want to see Annalise get a win -- take them down, as they have taken everything else from her. I don't think the second half needs to be a big mystery -- just how to prove they did it. Let the snitch be the main mystery for a change. But if one of the Keating 4 killed one of their own, I don't see that making sense in the show's narrative that Annalise protects them, no matter what. To me, she will not protect them for this -- no matter how accidental it was.

(I also know Peter Nowalk claims -- and I try to believe him -- that he didn't know who the victim was until the seventh episode. But re-watching the entirety of the flash-forwards, Wes' disembodied voice is saying "I was just asking for directions" over the very first scene of the flash-forward. I'm having a really hard time believing that's a coincidence. Maybe Nowalk wrote it unknowingly, but I really do think the idea of Wes as the victim was somewhere in his head the whole time.)

[jsbt]

Who's to say Annalise finds out who killed Wes this year? He didn't find out who killed Lila or Rebecca.

[Aquarius97]

27 minutes ago, jsbt said:

Who's to say Annalise finds out who killed Wes this year? He didn't find out who killed Lila or Rebecca.

That's the point for me. If we are only going to find out who is the killer in the last scene of the season (like knowing Frank killed Lila) or we are going to know it in 2-3 chapters and then see who happens then

Annalise found out about Bonnie being Rebecca's murderer. Bonnie confessed that to AK

[Chairperson Meow]

I think Wes was Annalise's second son- he was that surrogate for the child she lost.  Losing him is going to hurt her like hell.  I definitely think or hope we'll see her mom again soon because usually when things go off the rails she gets a visit from her.  Losing her "son" definitely warrants it.  If it's one of the Keating 4 or Bonnie/Frank, I don't think she'll cover for them.  After the "come at me" stuff, Frank being responsible for not only the death of her biological child but the actual murder of Sam (he killed Lila and let everyone believe Sam did it), Bonnie betraying her by kissing Sam and having sex with Frank....I think Annalise is done with protecting them.   She's been helping them this entire time, and they've responded by being ungrateful.  I do think that Frank had something to do with Wes snitching.  I don't know why, but I do.   I also suspect Bonnie/Frank for Wes's murder.   Either way, I look forward to the fallout.  I almost don't suspect Nate because out of all the K5, he seemed to care about Wes the most. 

[Happytobehere]

19 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wait a minute, isn't the snitch tied to Rebecca's murder? That to me is the original snitch, the one who alerted the cops that there was a Rebecca case to even look into and that's not Wes. The cops arrested Anna on the arson right? Which I still don't get because the fire was still burning and there wasn't even any forensic people yet able to collect evidence and conclude, oh yeah, this is arson.  Just because a house is on fire and people were trapped, one injured the other dead does not automatically mean foul play. I don't know where  they get off arresting her.  They had the Rebecca angle before the fire, so someone had to snitch about that right?  And Wes had no idea that the cops had anything on Rebecca's death until he got there. As a matter a fact, when the lawyer called him he was confused, he had no idea what it could be or why he would need to come down to the station. So the snitch can't be Wes, that doesn't make sense to me. Now someone setting him up so that he looks like the snitch... He didn't know anything, he was surprised to see the Rebecca file when they threw it on the table.

The original snitch based on the Rebecca information would have to be Frank. Unless someone saw him getting rid of the body and held on to that information until their neck was on the line, he was the only one who kn ew where Rebecca's body was.  Even Annalise didn't know.  I can imagine after feeling his Annalise bridge was completely burned after the Russian Roulette game, he went to the cops out of a combination of anger and fearing the wrath of Anna Mae (I'm sure Frank's smart enough to get an escape clause in case Annalise takes hi back; like he confesses to the crime and can't be punished because he has blanket immunity for all acts pertaining and relating to the crimes).

[Happytobehere]

6 hours ago, Eolivet said:

I'm enjoying all the Keating 4 murderer theories (especially the Laurel ones), but I keep coming back to the fact that Wes was almost like Annalise's second son. I will be shocked if she finds out she knows who killed Wes and protects them -- even if his death was accidental. I just can't see it. Wes was separate from the Keating 4 for a reason. In my mind, she's not going to even grudgingly cover for his killer, even if they could turn her in. She'll go to prison right along with them.

This is why I'd actually prefer it was the Mahoneys. I want to see Annalise get a win -- take them down, as they have taken everything else from her. I don't think the second half needs to be a big mystery -- just how to prove they did it. Let the snitch be the main mystery for a change. But if one of the Keating 4 killed one of their own, I don't see that making sense in the show's narrative that Annalise protects them, no matter what. To me, she will not protect them for this -- no matter how accidental it was.

(I also know Peter Nowalk claims -- and I try to believe him -- that he didn't know who the victim was until the seventh episode. But re-watching the entirety of the flash-forwards, Wes' disembodied voice is saying "I was just asking for directions" over the very first scene of the flash-forward. I'm having a really hard time believing that's a coincidence. Maybe Nowalk wrote it unknowingly, but I really do think the idea of Wes as the victim was somewhere in his head the whole time.)

The only way Annalise doesn't utterly destroy Wes' killer is if it is indeed Laurel and she is in fact pregnant with Wes' baby.  Between Laurel's father's wealth, the mental illness in her family and the sympathy a pregnant Laurel might garner, I could see Annalise letting her slide at least on the surface while planning her own form of life-destroying punishment.

Having said that, I do think that scene with Mamma Mahoney staring Wes down is setting up that family's involvement.  Remember she was actually as horrible, if not more so when it came to protecting her murderous progeny from getting his legal comeuppance; and we saw how far he was willing to go (assuming he was the person behind the bug and the car crash, we never actually saw the person who arranged for the woman who played Junior's alibi to pay off Frank).

[possibilities]

Did they say they found Rebecca's body because someone told them where it was? I had imagined it was discovered another way, like someone accidentally dug it up and then notified the police.

[Milaxx]

On 11/21/2016 at 2:01 PM, Eolivet said:

This is why I'd actually prefer it was the Mahoneys. I want to see Annalise get a win -- take them down, as they have taken everything else from her. I don't think the second half needs to be a big mystery -- just how to prove they did it. Let the snitch be the main mystery for a change. But if one of the Keating 4 killed one of their own, I don't see that making sense in the show's narrative that Annalise protects them, no matter what. To me, she will not protect them for this -- no matter how accidental it was.

I could easily see either Connor or Laurel being the ones to accidental or in the heat of an argument do something that kills Wes.  If it was one of them even though her feelings would change she can't completely banish them because of Sam. Also it would be interesting to see them at complete odds against her. Especially if it was Connor. AK would have a field day using Oliver against him.

On 11/21/2016 at 2:01 PM, Eolivet said:

(I also know Peter Nowalk claims -- and I try to believe him -- that he didn't know who the victim was until the seventh episode. But re-watching the entirety of the flash-forwards, Wes' disembodied voice is saying "I was just asking for directions" over the very first scene of the flash-forward. I'm having a really hard time believing that's a coincidence. Maybe Nowalk wrote it unknowingly, but I really do think the idea of Wes as the victim was somewhere in his head the whole time.)

I reread that EW article.  In the interview he says he knew it was going to be Wes, and spent most of the season trying to find a way to make it work so that it wasn't Wes but ultimately by episode 7 realized that it had to be Wes. 

Quote

 

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What came with the decision to kill off Wes?
PETE NOWALK: I have to take all the responsibility for it. It was a horrible decision to have to make, because everyone really loves their job here, and I love them all doing their job. When it comes down to why I made the decision is because he is the heart of the show, and really I wanted to do something that felt impactful, and it impacts every character. That’s why it killed me to make the decision, but also why I made it, is because it really spins out everyone, and I really wanted something to change the DNA of the show.

It wasn’t easy to make. I switched my mind a million times, and I really just didn’t make a decision, and I was like, “I’ll make it when I have to,” and “I’ll make it when I have to,” and then eventually it was episode 7, and I had to make a decision.