S16.E40: Live Finale

[Nashville]

If that's why he did it, though, it's pretty immature IMO but oh well. That's like a grown-up sitting down at the kid's table and breaking a toy just to spite a child.

Kind of like - taking a hat you don't actually want and cutting it up just to keep someone else from having it? :)

ETA: Plus - I expect the JH, although less stressful, is even more boring than the main House.

Zach and Victoria both picked on each other, they had an antagonistic, elementary school kid behavior and Victoria said recently she wanted to apologize to Zach and buy him a hat.

Think that ship's done sailed. Edited September 26, 2014 by Nashville

[willpwr]

Kind of like - taking a hat you don't actually want and cutting it up just to keep someone else from having it? :)

ETA: Plus - I expect the JH, although less stressful, is even more boring than the main House.

Think that ship's done sailed.

I never said Victoria wasn't immature, as a matter of fact I called her an antagonistic elementary school child. Two wrongs don't make a right and it wasn't Donny's fight.

[Sara2009]

Honestly if that was " revenge," it was incredibly tame.

[outtahere]

No, Victoria did not like Donny and could barely tolerate him.  I remember her facial expressions  when sitting at the kitchen island and he tried to engage her in conversation.  She mentioned it to Nicole more than once and it was uncomfortable situation since Nicole thought so highly of him.  Victoria only needed Derrick and got close to Nicole when they were the only two women in the house because the men (Derrick included) began to ignore her.  Derrick forgot his role as babysitter momentarily but got back on track.

[Sammich63]

Victoria was very rude to Donny and made it clear to Nicole that she didn't like him.  I love Nicole, but I noticed that she would let the other HGs know who liked them and who didn't like them.  I guess I've just never been one to do that, so I never understood why she did that.  Anyway, I think she let Donny know in the jury how much Victoria really disliked him.  He already had an idea, but she just really confirmed it.  I'm not condoning what he did, but I also don't think Zach jumping and dancing on others' clothes was cool, either.  I also didn't like Jocasta dumping the trash on the floor.  I guess they were told by production to vandalize, so they did it.  I still love Zach and Donny, however.  

[Turtle]

Last night on that dreadful livestream, Donny reiterated that he'd promised Cody his vote if Cody made it to F2.  Surprisingly, Cody never told Derrick!​

 

 

The only reason I can think of for Cody not telling Derrick is that Cody didn't believe Donny.  Cody never would have kept actual information from Derrick!

 

I expect the JH, although less stressful, is even more boring than the main House.

 

 

I think, but am not sure, that in the jury house they get movies and games and books, and even get to interact with the handlers and camera folks, so it's a lot less isolating and less boring than the house, especially in the last days.  But I might have made that up - who knows.  

[Bob Sambob]

At least he's finally telling some truths! I'll still never understand why he continued to lie about it (among other things) in DRs and post-show interviews.

 

I actually understand why he lied about it in the DRs (the vast majority of people who watch "Big Brother" don't get the feeds. Diehards get the feeds, but most people who casually watch it do not). He was in Team America -- he's smart enough to know that the people picked for Team America, at the very least, were chosen for a reason (they were popular, they were antiheroes, they were causing drama, whatever ... bottom line is they were who people were tuning in for). He knew he couldn't manipulate Donny, thus he needed him to go, but he didn't want to alienate the audience that elected him, either. He knew that the majority of fans watching the show on TV wouldn't know he was lying in the DR, only the feedsters, Twitterers and forum frequenters (I mean, my mother and people who just casually tune in because it's something to watch on TV as background noise don't run here and to Twitter when the episode ends).

 

As for the post-show interviews, I must be listening to different interviews than you, because he's been very forthcoming in the ones I've heard. In the RHAP interview, Rob flat-out asked him why he was deceptive in the DR (RHAP co-host Brian Lynch repeatedly railed on Derrick during the season for the things you're saying, re: DR dishonesty). Derrick said that as a member of Team America, he felt obligated to at least TRY all the tasks because America gave them this gift (i.e. free money). But once Donny refused the hinky-vote challenge (which Derrick admitted was a good move for Donny's game), he knew they weren't really allies, he couldn't mist him, so he needed to get him out before Donny found the allies to take him down. But he didn't want to piss off America, either, so he had to toe the line and do some spin-doctoring. Makes sense to me.

 

I wholeheartedly admit it: I don't understand how anybody can hate on Derrick as a Big Brother winner. If you don't like him personally, fine. But in my opinion, while Will and Dan are the greatest players ever -- because they were showmen as well as strategists -- I think Derrick's victory in BB16 is arguably the single greatest game in the history of the show (full disclosure: Danielle Reyes is probably my FAVORITE player of all time).

Edited September 27, 2014 by Bob Sambob

[Brian Cronin]

 

Victoria was very rude to Donny and made it clear to Nicole that she didn't like him.  I love Nicole, but I noticed that she would let the other HGs know who liked them and who didn't like them.

 

Yeah, that's what she did with Jocasta, as well, told her about Derrick making fun of her praying. 

[alegria]

Kind of like - taking a hat you don't actually want and cutting it up just to keep someone else from having it? :)

 

In other words, Victoria's a dog in the manger.  I like that visual. ;)

[Beach Party]

Zach seemed to have a huge following and IMO that is why Ariana threw her support his way.  She knew that Frankie wasn't going to win and that Zach might.  A quick twitter search shows that the interwebs are pretty big fans of all things Zach (all things Donny too). 

If Ariana did get votes for Zack, Frankie will now delude himself that those votes which put Zach in the Top 3 were really for him.

 

The show wanted Frankie to get to the end.

By the time Frankie was evicted, Frankie's/Ariana's followers probably still stuck around to watch who would win on finale.  Frankie was also shown in many episodes (if not all of them) after his eviction. Plus Frankie's eviction was satisfying to the large contingent of viewers who disliked Frankie.  Win-win for the show's ratings.  Didn't Julie say at the end of "The Talk" yesterday that Big Brother will return for Summer 2015 and Summer 2016?

[Brian Cronin]

Yeah, it got renewed for two more seasons! Which is awesome. I love this stupid show. 

 

Although, honestly, I don't worry about the show getting renewed nowadays. I just don't see it going away any time soon. It's a perfect summer show for CBS. It's not nearly as interesting as Survivor to the viewing audience (Survivor's popularity is ASTOUNDING - American Idol has been around for less years, was a much much much more popular show and yet now here we are and Survivor has hung around at the same basic level for long enough that it is actually roughly as popular as Idol, with a chance to actually beat Idol this year as they were pretty darn close in the ratings last season - that's amazing staying power), but it does JUST well enough for them to keep bringing it back every year without even thinking about it. 

 

Plus, if ratings ever sag, they have the All Star card in their pocket any time they want to play it (I'm pleased that they don't seem intent on playing it soon). 

[kikaha]

As a player Donny did not have much game.  Because he didn't establish much in the way of alliances, he had to win challenges to stay alive.  When the winning ended - as it eventually does for everyone - Donny was gone. 

 

I don't think much more of him as a person.  After announcing he wouldn't take part in that TA mission -- because he was playing for himself -- he then concocted a totally self-serving TA mission -- to save himself!  Then, when Derrick didn't go along with it, Donny cast his final vote for the person he knew played a lesser game.  Bitter juror, and for what?  What game did he think he was playing? 

 

Greatly overrated player IMO, and in the end not likeable either. 

[kikaha]

 

Derrick was a big part of why Donny was in such a hostile environment.​

 

What hostile environment?  Donny did not make any strong alliances.  He didn't socialize much... went to bed early... did not strategize in any meaningful way.  That was on him, not Derrick. 

 

On the other hand, the other HGs liked him.  He won lots of challenges.  Of course that made him a target, for the strong alliance that did exist. 

 

Donny promised Cody right near the beginning to vote for him.  How does that make sense?  Shouldn't he wait and see how the season unfolds?  Ironically, Cody was the one most responsible for booting Donny. 

 

I think Donny got things backwards, on several key issues.  He didn't play the game well, and voted on personal issues (that were mostly one-sided), not game play.  I'm relieved nearly all the other jurors didn't view things like he did. 

Edited September 27, 2014 by kikaha

[jellywager]

 

 

I totally think Christine voted for Derrick in order to smooth things over with her husband.

ITA, and I thought that she was trying to act extra "nice" (I'm not a bitter jury member) to try to win over the people who boo'd her. Girl, you can't put toothpaste back in the tube. 

[WiCkedWitCh]

ITA, and I thought that she was trying to act extra "nice" (I'm not a bitter jury member) to try to win over the people who boo'd her. Girl, you can't put toothpaste back in the tube.

I felt that way too. "Derrick played a REAAAALLLLYYYYY great game. WOW I'm suuuuuper impressed. He got us so good!! It was awesome"

I don't buy it.

I will say though, I would def be a "bitter" jury member. I'd be pissed at thd people who voted me out if they were in my alliance or whatever and I'd be pissed I wasted my summer in a disgusting dirty house without winning tons of money. I'm a sore loser I guess. But if my sole reason for going there was money and I didn't get any...yeh I'd be upset.

[willpwr]

I felt that way too. "Derrick played a REAAAALLLLYYYYY great game. WOW I'm suuuuuper impressed. He got us so good!! It was awesome"

I don't buy it.

I will say though, I would def be a "bitter" jury member. I'd be pissed at thd people who voted me out if they were in my alliance or whatever and I'd be pissed I wasted my summer in a disgusting dirty house without winning tons of money. I'm a sore loser I guess. But if my sole reason for going there was money and I didn't get any...yeh I'd be upset.

LOL, I'd be bitter, too....ain't no shame in that :) but I like to think I'd vote on gameplay because I respect the game. I actually appreciated when Jocasta said something like "no amount of sugar is going to take away the bitter" because she admitted she was bitter but then she said she voted for Cody because she promised after talking about "fake praying" but I'm pretty sure both she and Donny at one point also told Derrick they would vote for him because that guy kept working everyone until he felt he secured their votes. It doesn't really matter, though, the game is about lying, I don't really care if the juror's lie, too about their votes, they have their reasons, it's just fun to speculate. I think it's interesting that the friends that Derrick "stabbed in the back" appreciated his strategy and voted for him whereas the 2 people he was least close to in the jury seemed the most offended.

[Eolivet]

But once Donny refused the hinky-vote challenge (which Derrick admitted was a good move for Donny's game), he knew they weren't really allies

 

I have to say, I hated that task so much. Frankie was HoH that week, so he couldn't have even participated. Derrick was allied with everyone, so it wouldn't have affected his game. The only person it would've affected was Donny. It bothered me mostly to hear Frankie act all holier-than-thou about it, how dare Donny not want to do a task to win me money, when I don't actually have to do the task.

 

As for Derrick playing the best game ever...sure. Derrick's victory was like a blowout in the Super Bowl -- impressive, but boring as heck to watch. But I will always take that game with a grain of salt, as he essentially played Big Brother for three years with guys who had guns. Since the houseguests were unarmed, one had to like his chances.

 

I like how Brian Cronin characterized Derrick a couple pages back: he's at the top of the second-tier winners.

[Sammich63]

Cody has stated in recent interviews that he knew he had Donny's and Jocasta's votes.  So, that alone makes me feel that he didn't tell Derrick about Donny's F2 vote because he wanted to keep it and he believed Donny.  He knew Derrick would try to change Donny's vote.  Cody was actually surprised that Caleb and Christine didn't vote for him.  I think each player had his/her faults, including Nicole being such a snitch in the jury house. I'm glad someone else noticed this.  I'm not saying this was necessarily a bad thing, but I do think she fueled the fire that kept on burning bridges with Derrick/Victoria as far as Donny and Jocasta were concerned.  I still think this group has been the nicest ones I've watched on the show and I've watched for 7 seasons.  The only two HGs I still don't like are Christine and Frankie.  

 

Caleb is already talking about collaborating with Ryan Cabrera.  Oy vey!!!  I hope his world doesn't come crashing down too soon!!  Also, Christine tweeted that Tim plans on trying out next season!  I pray that doesn't happen!!!!

[Wings]

 

Also, Christine tweeted that Tim plans on trying out next season!  I pray that doesn't happen!!!!

 

 

I think that would be interesting! 

 

Thanks to some, who will remain nameless, I have become obsessed with waiting/googling for another Donny interview where the question is answered.  Who scratched out Victoria's name?  And why.    

Edited September 27, 2014 by wings707

[tinderbox]

PS

Oh, I forgot.............Thank goodness Cody came into some money. Maybe he can go see either a Medical or a Psychiatric Doctor to find out what is wrong with his little pee-pee, and why he always pulling on it.

He also needs to see an ENT (ear, nose, and throat doctor) for the constant sucking snot down his throat. I don't know if it's just a habit or a nose/throat issue.

 

 

Just wait until Frankie finds out that, not only was he not among the three top vote-getters for AFP, but he also wasn't among the top three for Team America.  He only got it by default because Joey was evicted first.  Any little blow to his oversized ego suits me just fine!

I'd love to know the actual order of our vote after Joey's ouster. My bet is that Derrick was at the bottom of the list.

 

Watching The Talk today....juuuuust couldn't let Derrick have the sole spotlight, they hadddddd to put Frankie on too?! Another go away, douchebag, and STAT.

I believe the biggest blunder of that interview was when, while explaining his strategy, Derrick referred to "profiling" fellow houseguests. By the look on the faces of the two black women on the panel I could see that description didn't sit well at all. In fact, one of the women verbally stated her distaste for that word. Interesting! Oh, and I agree. Frankie had no business being on that show.

Edited September 27, 2014 by tinderbox

[Wings]

 

I believe the biggest blunder of that interview was when, while explaining his strategy, Derrick referred to "profiling" fellow houseguests. By the look on the faces of the two black women on the panel I could see that description didn't sit well at all. In fact, one of the women verbally stated her distaste for that word. Interesting! Oh, and I agree. Frankie had no business being on that show.

 

Oh good grief.  Profiling is complicated and not about race.  Serial killers have been caught with this technique and none of them have been black.  They were reacting to the obvious prejudice against blacks by the police.  That is very different from getting into the minds of criminals when solving a crime.   Or in Derricks case fitting in when undercover.  

Edited September 27, 2014 by wings707

[Joimiaroxeu]

Oh good grief.  Profiling is complicated and not about race. 

Except when it is in practice absolutely about race; for example, Driving While Black and AZ's extremely controversial SB 1070.

 

Serial killers have been caught with this technique and none of them have been black.

Yes. That's offender profiling, more commonly referred to as criminal profiling.

 

They were reacting to the obvious prejudice against blacks by the police.

No, I think they were reacting to the generic use of that word when it has some specific connotations which are highly negative. Derrick should have known better but in the heat of the moment he probably wasn't thinking it could be taken the wrong way by at least two of the jurors. (Also, I'm not sure the prejudice is necessarily obvious or that it applies in general to "the police". Maybe "some" police.)

 

That is very different from getting into the minds of criminals when solving a crime. Or in Derricks case fitting in when undercover.

Derrick fitting in when undercover may indeed sometimes involve profiling people on a racial or cultural basis. Who knows what he's running into RI? Whatever, it's not necessarily always wrong but it's a hot-button concept and word that he perhaps shouldn't have used under those circumstances. IMO, of course.

[Ravello]

Derrick did nothing wrong when he used the word profiling. As a nation our political correctness has reached a ridiculous level. We all profile other human beings and people profile us. Employers profile prospective hires. Creditors profile us. Police profiling is a basic tenet of solving crimes. Derrick is extremely intelligent and is wise beyond his years when it comes to interpersonal relationships. He has intuitive street smarts and is very well educated.

I was thrilled for Donny and I don't think his final vote was sour grapes. He honored a promise made to Cody.

Christine had a good finale to make up for not saying goodbye to the other HG when evicted.

I am sick to death of all things Frankie. Cody should have been on the Talk instead of the fifth place guy.

It was a fun summer and Derrick totally earned the win. Cannot wait until next summer.

[yankee1151]

I never thought Derrick was referring to racial profiling (I watch Criminal Minds so thats the context I immediately thought of) but reading these posts now I can totally see how some people could have taken it that way.  I hope someone asks him and he clarifies what he meant.  

 

Anyway.  I'm happy with Derrick as the winner and think he played a masterful game - BUT.  Masterful in the Grodner era to me always has an asterisk next to it (yes, even Dan, who despite the seasons he played I still put behind Will and Danielle Reyes as the third best player ever).  I would have LOVED to see Dan and Derrick play with the likes of Will & Danielle, or Nakomis, or Jun, or even Maggie.  The fact that Rachel Reilly is considered by a lot of fans to be one of the greats is laughable to me and shows just how low the bar has been set since Grodner took the reins.  No, it's not particularly impressive to "mist" the likes of Cody and Caleb and Victoria.  However, I don't think this season had overall more idiots than any since season 8.  Derrick did not have the creativity that Dan did, and certainly faced less adversity along the way, so to me his win was definitely less impressive than Dan's, but Dan wasn't exactly playing with real strategists either.  Both "misted" who they could, and disposed of people who were onto them.  I won't dismiss Derrick's win as unimpressive based on who he played with, but I'm just sick of all the talk of "superfans" by Grodner et al - superfan does not equal good strategist, nor does it even necessarily equal good TV (Adam Poch, anyone?)  I wish they would just try to find some interesting people, preferably with brains in their heads, who are there to WIN THE MONEY and not because they think it will make them famous.  I'm not sure why Grodner is so opposed to that, but oh well. It's a shame though, because I do think Derrick was a great player, and Dan a better one, and it would have been fascinating to see them play against actual players regardless of the outcome.  Also, I hope we never, ever have to see Frankie again, but I'm sure the next time they decide to bring back "veterans" (all stars or otherwise) he will be front and center.  Note to Grodner:  I don't "love to hate" Frankie.  He fucking sucks, and is excruciating to watch.    

 

When I long for the days of Maggie's cult, I know it's time to stop watching this shit, but I know I never will.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

This is on the verge of going off topic but...I find that people often resort to the term "political correctness" when they're advocating the use of terms which are known to be problematic to a specific set of people who are in some kind of minority population. Not sure I understand why minorities' objections to certain words are so easily disregarded under the guise of being too politically correct.

 

Sure, Derrick can use that term all he wants in whatever context he wants as long as he doesn't care that some people may genuinely take offense largely based on negative personal experience. I'm confident both of those women and/or their friends and families have undergone racial profiling which had nothing to do with them possibly committing a crime. So to me it's easy to understand why they'd react as they did to his generic use of the word.

 

Derrick is extremely intelligent and is wise beyond his years when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

I don't think anyone's arguing that. However, unless one is acquainted with him personally, I'm not sure how that could truly be known. At best we're all probably drawing conclusions based on how these people have behaved on camera over the course of a few months. I think he seems extremely intelligent and wise beyond his years but who knows, maybe he's just a good actor who's been trained to present a given image.

 

I hope someone asks him and he clarifies what he meant. 

Me too. Until then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and guessing that he was excited and didn't stop to think how it might come across. Whatever, he was a masterful player and earned the win, IMO.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Joimiaroxeu

[Ravello]

I am not advocating the use of offensive language. I am saying Derrick's honest description of his game play was not in the least offensive, he was describing how his cop background helped him win the game. He masterfully profiled the other HG and tailored his relationships accordingly. I never watch The Talk or The View but I did see a replay of his interview. I wonder if the offended host even knows the demographics of the HG. It seemed she automatically made the assumption that gameplay was racial in nature. It was not.

[shelley1234]

I am not advocating the use of offensive language. I am saying Derrick's honest description of his game play was not in the least offensive, he was describing how his cop background helped him win the game. He masterfully profiled the other HG and tailored his relationships accordingly. I never watch The Talk or The View but I did see a replay of his interview. I wonder if the offended host even knows the demographics of the HG. It seemed she automatically made the assumption that gameplay was racial in nature. It was not.

 

I don't think she thought he meant it in a racial sense, I think she thought the word was a racially charged word.  Those are two very different things.  I watched the interview as well and heard her reaction.  Derrick did not mean racial profiling and as a cop in Rhode Island, I doubt that he even thought anyone would take it that way, but it's a fact in the world we live in.  

 

He's not wrong though.  He used his police and profiling skills as a huge advantage in the game.  Derrick was able to pretty quickly assess what might motivate different houseguests and use that to his advantage.  

[Wings]

Profiling is a word describing a method used by police and FBI in solving crimes.  Racial profiling is a term created by an outraged public when people of color are the victim of brutality and/or discrimination.  Law enforcement does not use the term "racial profiling."   Profiling starts with the crime scene.  Is this a pro, did they cover their tracks, how was the victim killed, was it with stealth or passion etc.  Race may be a key part of the profile, say a black man was killed in an all black neighborhood, odds are.  This from a detective (uncle of friend).  

Edited September 28, 2014 by wings707

[Eolivet]

The fact that Rachel Reilly is considered by a lot of fans to be one of the greats is laughable to me and shows just how low the bar has been set since Grodner took the reins.

 

Rachel Reilly is one of the biggest competition beasts the game has ever seen. She's an example of how someone with zero social game can make it to the end with a resume of mostly comp wins. The idea of using Derrick's strategy of throwing competitions and "doing what the house wants" is antithetical to Rachel Reilly's DNA. All she wants to do is win comps and make good television. She is firmly a second-tier winner in my book, certainly below Derrick -- but in my mind, she's better than Dick, Hayden, Mike Boogie and any number of alpha males.

 

(And as good as Danielle Reyes is, I think Big Brother players are like football teams -- part of the game is to win the Super Bowl, and if you didn't do that, you have to be considered behind the teams who did. She's the 18-1 Patriots in that sense. The 17th best player, because she never won).

Edited September 28, 2014 by Eolivet

[peachmangosteen]

Great post, Eolivet. I like thaT someone like Rachel, who has no real strategic or social game at all, can win, but then someone like Jordan, who was really all social game, can too. I think lately there's been so much emphasis on one type of game, Derrick's type of game, and it's getting so boring and played out. 

 

I'm so jaded on this show. The first 6 seasons were so much more interesting than the past 6 have been. The show is on a downward spiral, IMO.

Edited September 28, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[yankee1151]

Rachel Reilly is one of the biggest competition beasts the game has ever seen. She's an example of how someone with zero social game can make it to the end with a resume of mostly comp wins. The idea of using Derrick's strategy of throwing competitions and "doing what the house wants" is antithetical to Rachel Reilly's DNA. All she wants to do is win comps and make good television. She is firmly a second-tier winner in my book, certainly below Derrick -- but in my mind, she's better than Dick, Hayden, Mike Boogie and any number of alpha males.

 

(And as good as Danielle Reyes is, I think Big Brother players are like football teams -- part of the game is to win the Super Bowl, and if you didn't do that, you have to be considered behind the teams who did. She's the 18-1 Patriots in that sense. The 17th best player, because she never won).

Eh, I think Rachel is on par with Dick and Boogie, and worse than Hayden.  Because aside from Hayden, all of those players had shit rigged for them.  In Boogie's case maybe not as much, but I don't think he would have been in the house at all if not for Will's insistence, and then rode Will's coattails to final 4.  He went out 4th his first season (and early in the coach season too, for that matter).  Rachel was early jury in hers.  Dick's season and Rachel's second were the most heavily manipulated EVER, IMO.  I just don't see any of those players winning without the heavy shenanigans.  Also, speaking of Hayden, that dumbass BEAT Rachel.  Fair and square and so did a lot of dumbasses that season, actually.  Lots of people have been comp beasts and due to lack of additional strategy (I LOVE Janelle, but she comes to mind here) could not make it to the final 2.  You know who else comes to mind?  Frankie.  Caleb.  Donny.  And for that matter, Cody, who did manage to make it to final two with more comp wins than his opponent and still lost.  Badly.  None of them would have beaten Derrick this season, comp wins or not.  They all won more than he did (Donny maybe equal, but Derrick won more with fewer people there) And they were all (even self-isolating Donny and loathsome Frankie) better at the social aspect of the game than Rachel was, IMO.  Had Grodner wanted to rig the season for Frankie (as it kind of seemed for a bit) I would view his "win" the same as Rachel's, comp wins or not.  Big. Fat. Asterisk.  

 

And just to bring it back to the actual finale.... it's been asked, but I'm still wondering what the hell happened to Frankie's pants.  And why none of the pre-jurors were allowed to speak at all.  Questions we will never get answers to... 

Edited September 28, 2014 by yankee1151

[Ravello]

Reality shows are the most authentic in the early seasons. After a while participants, whether they are house guests or housewives often model themselves based on what a previous person did on that show. Derrick played the most intelligent game ever, utilizing his education and training to assess his rivals. A lot of us can accurately assess personality types but few people would be able to execute the perfect strategy based on these assessments.

Nicole may have been the second smartest HG as she was one of the first to understand Derricks brilliant play.

[peachmangosteen]

Derrick played the most intelligent game ever ...

 

I don't agree.

 

 

Nicole may have been the second smartest HG as she was one of the first to understand Derricks brilliant play.

 

Nicole didn't have a clue about Derrick until she was evicted and Hayden told her. And then when she came back she let Derrick take her game over yet again. 

 

I think Donny was the first person to see Derrick for what he was, but he couldn't really get anybody on board so it was ultimately meaningless. Hayden also figured Derrick out early on, but was too passive to do anything. I also think Zach knew fairly early how good Derrick was, but, well, I don't even know. Zach mostly just sucked as a player!

[Eolivet]

I think lately there's been so much emphasis on one type of game, Derrick's type of game, and it's getting so boring and played out.

 

Seriously. I'm so sick of the micromanaging strategist. So glad you brought up Jordan -- a masterful social game can be just as good a strategy as comp wins. Micromanaging everyone to within an inch of their lives is not the only legitimate way to win a game and not the only definition of "great player."

 

Also, speaking of Hayden, that dumbass BEAT Rachel.  Fair and square and so did a lot of dumbasses that season, actually.

 

By that logic, Dan isn't that great because he played twice and lost once. Neither is Will. Neither is Jordan.

 

You know who else comes to mind?  Frankie.  Caleb.  Donny.  And for that matter, Cody

 

So, Rachel -- a winner -- is on par with four men -- none of whom won -- because they had both comp wins and social game? So, Rachel is not only worse than Frankie, Donny, Caleb and Cody (four non-winners), but also Hayden (who rode an all-male alliance to the end) and Boogie (who rode the coattails of one of the game's greats), because she won with no social game and no serious alliances, in a season that was rigged for a man (Jeff)? Funny, I didn't realize female winners made 77 cents on the dollar, too.

[yankee1151]

Seriously. I'm so sick of the micromanaging strategist. So glad you brought up Jordan -- a masterful social game can be just as good a strategy as comp wins. Micromanaging everyone to within an inch of their lives is not the only legitimate way to win a game and not the only definition of "great player."

 

 

 

 

By that logic, Dan isn't that great because he played twice and lost once. Neither is Will. Neither is Jordan.

 

 

 

 

So, Rachel -- a winner -- is on par with four men -- none of whom won -- because they had both comp wins and social game? So, Rachel is not only worse than Frankie, Donny, Caleb and Cody (four non-winners), but also Hayden (who rode an all-male alliance to the end) and Boogie (who rode the coattails of one of the game's greats), because she won with no social game and no serious alliances, in a season that was rigged for a man (Jeff)? Funny, I didn't realize female winners made 77 cents on the dollar, too.

Whoa.  I said NOTHING about gender, and it had absolutely nothing to do with my point.  Which was, Rachel, like the men (sans Hayden) that you mentioned won in production rigged seasons.  And that comp beasts - male AND female, Janelle being one of the best - without additional tools, usually don't win, so I doubt Rachel would have won had the season NOT been rigged. Also, I never said she was worse than the players I mentioned from this season, I was simply illustrating that those players were also comp beasts but DID have some semblance of a social game (unlike Rachel) and it still did not matter.  They all lost.  Because no rigging.  They got played by a strategist.  I also didn't say Rachel was worse than Boogie.  I said her win was on par with his and Dick's.  Hayden wasn't a great (or even good) winner but he won without production giving him blatant advantages.  So yeah, I think his win was "better" than Rachel's, or more deserving.  Hayden won a lot of comps too, didn't he?  

 

As for Dan, Will, and Jordan - they won the first time they played, in all-newbie seasons, not as returning veterans.  So no, I don't think my logic is flawed.  More importantly, the seasons they won did not appear to be rigged or influenced by production towards one player or group.  

 

Again, I apologize if my point wasn't clear, but the assumption that any of it had anything to do with gender is pretty offensive when I said nothing of the sort.  For the record, I am female, and I actually think that the misogyny that seems to run rampant on this show every season sucks, but that's a COMPLETELY different topic.  

[Stinger97]

Just FYI: The topic of racial profiling has pretty much nothing to do with BB and, as such, is off-topic. Let's drop that line of chat and keep it strictly about the finale. If we can't do that, I'll lock the thread. Thanks!

[Brian Cronin]

I like to judge each season individually, so for me, Rachel's Season 13 would be one season and her Season 12 would be another. Her Season 12 was terrible, but I thought she had a strong Season 13. The rigging, though, knocks down her win in my book overall. I mean, come on, she was screwed and then they rigged the show and the whole game changed. Same thing with Dick, only his rigging was even worse, so he's an even worse winner in my opinion (that dude would have been GONE Week 7 had it not been for their rigging). 

 

As for Danielle, I liked her game a lot overall, but come on, you can't get past the elephant in the room - she ripped the people voting for the winner in Diary Room entries that SHE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO SEE BEFORE THEY VOTED. So that knocks her down a lot for me. Still a very good player, though. 

 

EDITED TO ADD: My apologies, though, if we should be taking this discussion to another thread (I think we do have a "history of BB thread"). 

Edited September 28, 2014 by Brian Cronin

[Stinger97]

Yea, let's move the previous season discussion to the appropriate thread. Thanks!

[kikaha]

I did not see those rigged seasons.  Can anyone briefly tell me how TPTB did this? 

 

ETA: just saw the post above.  I'll ask on another thread. 

Edited September 28, 2014 by kikaha

[Kris117]

I’m guessing Frankie had a Very Special Contract, one which guaranteed that in return for lil sis appearing on two episodes, he would be the focus of the Big Season Twist (celeb sibling hides relationship!), but also have a central role in another Big Season Twist (TA) AND appear on The Talk.  It also will not surprise me if he is appointed some kind of special correspondent for the Talk, at least until they can get out of it.  All prearranged, and why Julie has to pretend she likes him.

 

I'm guessing we'll be seeing him appear in seasons to come, in the way Jessie kept popping up for a few seasons after he was actually a houseguest. I groaned each and every time, but he could be funny in small doses. What I would hate is if he replaced Jeff as the online interviewer. Jeff has grown to be a good interviewer, and I can only think that any interview Frankie did would be all about him. He'd ask someone about their strategy and compare it to his. 

 

I could tolerate him on TAR if only because that race has a way of wearing attention-seekers down to a nub or a meltdown, and both would be good TV. He should team up with Victoria. I can imagine them at the start, being flabbergasted that the show's luggage rules applied to them, too. 

 

I never understood why Donny considered TA an alliance. It was an artificial grouping and a good way to earn cash, that's it. Since it was obvious that Frankie and Derrick had their own friends in the house, I would not have ever expected any loyalty from them.

 

I think he considered it an alliance because it was his first chance at one. He has said that his plan was to wait for someone to approach him about an alliance, rather than search one out for himself. Then he found out that America voted him onto Team America, so he grabbed onto that as an alliance, thinking that Frankie and Derrick were seeing it that way, too. Since they already had their alliances, they didn't see it that way at all. For Donny, it was a game alliance as well as a way to make extra money; for the other two, it was just a way to make extra money. 

 

Speaking of Team America, I am so pleased that I will never have to see Frankie's obnoxious salute and grin as he signed off to America ever again.

 

ITA, and I thought that she was trying to act extra "nice" (I'm not a bitter jury member) to try to win over the people who boo'd her. Girl, you can't put toothpaste back in the tube.

 

I don't think that was her only reason to vote for Derrick. I felt that once Christine got out of the pressure of the house and the Cody mist and had a chance to reflect on the game, and was surrounded with people who told her who was actually running the game (Derrick), she got part of her super fan brain back.

[willpwr]

 

I think he considered it an alliance because it was his first chance at one. He has said that his plan was to wait for someone to approach him about an alliance, rather than search one out for himself. Then he found out that America voted him onto Team America, so he grabbed onto that as an alliance, thinking that Frankie and Derrick were seeing it that way, too. Since they already had their alliances, they didn't see it that way at all. For Donny, it was a game alliance as well as a way to make extra money; for the other two, it was just a way to make extra money. 

I never thought he considered TA an alliance until it was convenient for him. He specifically told Frankie and Derrick that he didn't ask for Team America, he went on the show to be Donny Thompson and play his own game, not someone else's. They both looked at each other with surprised expressions on their faces. Prior to that, Donny had already been going around the house badmouthing Derrick because he figured out his game pretty much right away. He wanted Derrick gone from the start. Derrick and Donny have both admitted that Derrick approached Donny from the start to try to form an alliance and Donny turned it down because he didn't like/trust Derrick, there was a point at the beginning when Donny was sleeping and the other guys were excited about their TA mission and went to wake up Donny to discuss strategy and he told them he'd rather sleep. I honestly don't understand why all of a sudden he's talking about TA turning on him, that was never a true alliance, it was definitely not a F3 deal.

[choclatechip45]

I don't think they will replace Jeff next summer. They just hired him to do the same thing for Survivor and The Amazing Race.

[Beach Party]

Next season some changes need to be made:

 

1. No recruiting HGs.  There already are too many people who WANT to play BB.  No one related to anyone famous (like Willie, Elisa, Frankie, etc).

2. On Day One: let all the HGs inside the house at the same time.  Not half, then the other half much later.

3.  Get rid of announcing the weekly eviction vote tallies to the HGs.  Julie should just announce who is evicted.  The audience will know the tally but not the HGs (unless it's a tie). Add a little paranoia so HGs don't know if everyone is on board with "the house."

The HGs need to be free to vote the way they want without outing themselves as house dissenters.

[Beach Party]

And: some women need to make a mid-sized alliance of females.  Joey's plan would've been interesting to see.

[peachmangosteen]

I imagine Donny thought TA was gonna be a real alliance because I believe the cards TA the first got alluded to, or actually I believe outright stated, that it was an 'alliance.' Which was dumb and greatly contributed to this season being so boring.

 

And: some women need to make a mid-sized alliance of females.  Joey's plan would've been interesting to see.

 

Sadly, Production seems determined to continue to cast people (mostly the men, IMO, but also the women) that will never allow that to happen.

Edited October 2, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[willpwr]

I imagine Donny thought TA was gonna be a real alliance because I believe the cards TA the first got alluded to, or actually I believe outright stated, that it was an 'alliance.' Which was dumb and greatly contributed to this season being so boring.

 

 

Sadly, Production seems determined to continue to cast people (mostly the men, IMO, but also the women) that will never allow that to happen.

If he thought it was a real alliance then why didn't want to discuss strategy with them? He only discussed it pertaining to the tasks.

[choclatechip45]

 

And: some women need to make a mid-sized alliance of females.  Joey's plan would've been interesting to see.

 

Sadly, Production seems determined to continue to cast people (mostly the men, IMO, but also the women) that will never allow that to happen.

I disagree with this. Gender alliances have never really done well on Big Brother. Besides the Brigade and The Girl power alliance in BB4. I don't consider Chilltown an all guys alliance because the whole cast except Kaysar and Marcellas thought they had some sort of deal with them. I don't consider the Bombsquad/Detonators to be an all guy alliance because of Christine.

[peachmangosteen]

If he thought it was a real alliance then why didn't want to discuss strategy with them?

I believe he did. But he really took to not liking/trusting Derrick pretty early on as well, so he stopped giving a shit about him. Also, I think Donny is pretty perceptive and he knew that Frankie/Derrick were talking to and playing with each other much more than they ever did with him, so he basically gave up.

I saw Donny try to play, try to make alliances, try to get people to see what was going on, etc. I don't think he just didn't do anything. But every time he tried, it backfired, so he did mostly give up towards the end.

Edited October 3, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[willpwr]

At first he did. But he really took to not liking/trusting Derrick pretty early on as well, so he stopped giving a shit about him. Also, I think Donny is pretty perceptive and he knew that Frankie/Derrick were talking to and playing with each other much more than they ever did with him, so he basically gave up.

 

I saw Donny try to play, try to make alliances, try to get people to see what was going on, etc. I don't think he just didn't do anything. But every time he tried, it backfired, so he did mostly give up towards the end.

Donny said he didn't try to make alliances in post show interviews. He wanted to make jury and basically wait until her knew he made it to jury to actually start playing. From what I saw, he would wait until people were about to be eliminated to ally with them knowing he didn't have the numbers so that when they were eliminated IMHO, they could say, "well Donny warned me about what was going on, he tried to save me, I love him, if he makes it to F2 I'm voting for him", which is smart so I actually liked that he was doing that but he lost me when he started throwing himself pity parties. The attempts he made weren't real attempts because he wasn't really trying to do anything except make it look like he was there for people that he knew were going since he had figured out the votes already. If anything, I'd say he actually played/fought more towards the end with the way he was finally trying to use TA in his favor, but again, it was too little, too late because he took on the attitude that the person/people in power needed to prove themselves to him. He couldn't play with "these people" because they weren't the type of people he felt he could trust. I understand not liking someone but he really messed up his own game. He's smart, knew how to make them laugh, he knew who the weak links were but he tried the wrong approach with them, he let them know he thought they were stupid. I don't blame them for not wanting to work with him, TBH. If he had put his dislike aside and tried to play the fitting in game everyone else did and stayed up for the chance to win $500k, he could have won. That is why he's my biggest disappointment in the season because he had a lot of potential but he didn't really try, which he himself admits and that is why I can't blame anyone else for "turning on him" or not working with him.

[peachmangosteen]

Maybe Donny didn't 'try to make alliances' but I saw him play the game and try to strategize with people, including TA, Hayden, Zach, Nicole, Cody, hell even Jocasta, which was a lost cause for anyone. And honestly he did actually try to make alliances with some people but it never worked, so he's probably trying to make himself look better by saying he didn't try as opposed to he failed.

Edited October 3, 2014 by peachmangosteen