S02.E07: Chikhai Bardo

[aghst]

Except the version of Gemma who attacked Dr. Mauer and tried to escape was Gemma, not Ms. Casey, who's the Innie.

But as soon as she ascended in the elevator trying to get out, she turned and was docile, obeying Milchick and turning back without being forced to go back.

Gemma knows she doesn't want to be there, has a life she wants to return to.

 

[AstridM]

No way in hell do I believe that Gemma voluntarily signed away her rights to Lumon and agreed to fake her death and lie to Mark about it. NOPE. 

[JenE4]

12 minutes ago, AstridM said:

No way in hell do I believe that Gemma voluntarily signed away her rights to Lumon and agreed to fake her death and lie to Mark about it. NOPE. 

She might have agreed to participate in experiments without knowing they were going to fake her death and hold her for years.

[Orff99]

This show did a remarkable job of portraying pregnancy loss and infertility. There is clearly personal experience in the writer's room.

Two things jumped out at me.

First, the doctor talking about what Gemma is "siring". That is an odd description for a woman, and even more so an infertile person. Men sire, women birth. And she doesn't seem to be pregnant in there. Perhaps the "siring" is providing her eggs, for others to birth - like the women in the innie birthing center. I sure hope that they're not being inseminated by Mark... as collected by Helena the one time... and maybe the second time. I'm not 100% sure we're back to Helly.

Second, Selvig being a Lumon soldier and her position in the "outie" world being lactation consultant. Her advice was sound. So maybe she provides that service to the women giving birth to what Gemma has "sired" - and maybe those women aren't breastfeeding, or there are children not being born from women, which means they would need replacement milk, and the best options are either formula or....

goat's milk. Truly. The best natural alternative to human milk, for human babies, is goat milk. It's nurturing.

Mammalians nurturable.

Maybe the nurturable mammals are not the goats, but the babies born from Gemma's eggs (and maybe others). The goats are raised for their milk to nurture the human babies.

We heard "they're not ready yet". Not the goats - the babies.

[seank941]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

I was always taught that you cannot sign away your rights, as much as people would try to make you think you can.  You can disclose after an NDA, you just lose the benefits detailed in the contract. You cannot sign a contract to make yourself a slave. 
 

Are the outies signing their innies into slavery? If everyone has an in ie for dental work I suppose they won’t want to think about it

I don't know how the Severance legal system works, I'm just assuming they have slightly different laws based on things like the OTC. Either way, there are legal ways to harm outie Gemma as well. Mark definitely should've been fired by now, and I'm assuming they get some housing benefits as Lumon employees.

 

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yah. The innies do not have autonomy and choice. Helly, in particular, makes it clear. Her outie dresses her like a baby. She cannot quit. ( her outie can’t either, but she doesn’t know that.) severing creates a separate person. What are your responsibilities to that person? If you choose to quit they die. 

To be clear, I absolutely believe that innies are separate people. However if you are the type of person that doesn't, who cares about them?

Seeing Gemma's experiences, it actually brings up some new questions about the innie personality. If you only use your innie to go to the dentist or a few unpleasant tasks, what are they actually like? The MDR team works 8 hours a day for almost the entire year, and they are still basically teenagers. How long would it take for a normal person's innie to even become a child?

I'm also curious how the chip would work in a normal person. I actually like going to the dentist, and sometimes you need to answer questions while you are in the chair. I also know people who enjoy filling out Christmas cards, and corresponding with relatives, even if they are thank you cards. Are there settings for the severance chips?

[Affogato]

50 minutes ago, seank941 said:

I don't know how the Severance legal system works, I'm just assuming they have slightly different laws based on things like the OTC. Either way, there are legal ways to harm outie Gemma as well. Mark definitely should've been fired by now, and I'm assuming they get some housing benefits as Lumon employees.

 

To be clear, I absolutely believe that innies are separate people. However if you are the type of person that doesn't, who cares about them?

Seeing Gemma's experiences, it actually brings up some new questions about the innie personality. If you only use your innie to go to the dentist or a few unpleasant tasks, what are they actually like? The MDR team works 8 hours a day for almost the entire year, and they are still basically teenagers. How long would it take for a normal person's innie to even become a child?

I'm also curious how the chip would work in a normal person. I actually like going to the dentist, and sometimes you need to answer questions while you are in the chair. I also know people who enjoy filling out Christmas cards, and corresponding with relatives, even if they are thank you cards. Are there settings for the severance chips?

We saw Helly wake up. Panic. Fear. Anger. They would not be prepared for dental work. Detrimental in a plane crash. And it would be abusive even if never seen. So this has something to do with the balancing of the emotions, dread to frolic. The MDR team have fairly lmited experiences, too. 

[arc]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

We saw Helly wake up. Panic. Fear. Anger. They would not be prepared for dental work.

The thank you cards experiment raises two issues. First, that innie isn’t a blank slate, because she would have to know personal details to write thank you cards. Secondly, Lumon must have just implanted a bunch of fake memories for that innie, because that’s a fake husband there and she’s writing cards for gifts she never actually received, and that’s well something beyond the mere memory editing they’ve shown so far.

If Lumon wants to commercialize severance for more than just the innie-outie 9-5 split that we’ve mostly seen (besides Gabby), they probably have plans to do something more advanced than the “outie is the original persona and innie is wiped clean of personal memories” scheme that rules on the severed floor.

[Starchild]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

Except the version of Gemma who attacked Dr. Mauer and tried to escape was Gemma, not Ms. Casey, who's the Innie.

But as soon as she ascended in the elevator trying to get out, she turned and was docile, obeying Milchick and turning back without being forced to go back.

Gemma knows she doesn't want to be there, has a life she wants to return to.

 

Oh yeah this hadn't occurred to me before.

When the outie descends in the elevator to the severed floor, they become the innie.

But when the innie descends even further down in the elevator to the testing floor, they become the outie again.

Interesting.

[FoundTime]

On 2/28/2025 at 7:06 PM, AheadofStraight said:

We just rewatched and one random thing I noticed. When she was doing the thank you notes she was using her left hand and her handwriting was abysmal and she is clearly not left-handed. No idea if that means anything lol 

Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I just figured that by the time you got to thank-you note #150, your handwriting would be pretty ragged 😅

[seank941]

I know this episode was about Gemma, but there have to other people down there too, right? The experiments are almost useless if you only have one test subject.  I guess they could test people one at a time, but they seem to be in a hurry.

This sort of brings up another question I was thinking of: are there any other companies with severance type of projects? I can't imagine other companies not trying to capitalize on such a profitable technology.

[AheadofStraight]

6 hours ago, FoundTime said:

Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I just figured that by the time you got to thank-you note #150, your handwriting would be pretty ragged 😅

Well, most likely you are the correct one lol! It just looked like my writing if I try to use my other hand. 

[jacehan]

I don't think it's clear that the Gemma was saw was her Outie. Considering we saw multiple personas in different rooms, couldn't it just be essentially Gemma S., her default innie, while switching to Ms. Casey on the severed floor is just another room persona?

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, jacehan said:

I don't think it's clear that the Gemma was saw was her Outie. Considering we saw multiple personas in different rooms, couldn't it just be essentially Gemma S., her default innie, while switching to Ms. Casey on the severed floor is just another room persona?

It could be we are not seeing multiple personae. We are seeing severing of memories and negative feelings, but not a loss of what makes her an individual person.  The one in the hall is the same person. She has been told this is an experiment, but it goes on forever and she is tired of it. This contrasts with  Miss Casey, who is a severed person as we know them. 

Edited March 3 by Affogato

[arc]

10 hours ago, jacehan said:

couldn't it just be essentially Gemma S., her default innie,

But she wants to see Mark again. Most likely it is the real Gemma down there.

[Dev F]

21 hours ago, Affogato said:

We saw Helly wake up. Panic. Fear. Anger. They would not be prepared for dental work. Detrimental in a plane crash. And it would be abusive even if never seen.

That makes me wonder if it's possible to fork the severed memories of a person with multiple innies. That is, could you give one innie a general orientation session so they at least understand what severance is and that they'll be doing some sort of work for their outie, and then copy those memories to a bunch of other innie identities instead of starting each one with a blank slate? That would add interesting new wrinkles to the question of severed identity.

Edited to add: It occurs to me that this potentially offers an explanation for questions like "How did Lumon get the MDR team into place in the middle of the wilderness for the ORTBO session?" Instead of making their outies walk into position and then activating them, or puppeting them around zombielike in some way we've never seen before, you could conceivably fork the innies into a separate memory track, have them walk into position, and then return to the original fork, so that from their perspective, they suddenly jumped into position without ever traveling there.

Edited March 4 by Dev F

[ombre]

30 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That makes me wonder if it's possible to fork the severed memories of a person with multiple innies. That is, could you give one innie a general orientation session so they at least understand what severance is and that they'll be doing some sort of work for their outie, and then copy those memories to a bunch of other innie identities instead of starting each one with a blank slate? That would add interesting new wrinkles to the question of severed identity.

Edited to add: It occurs to me that this potentially offers an explanation for questions like "How did Lumon get the MDR team into place in the middle of the wilderness for the ORTBO session?" Instead of making their outies walk into position and then activating them, or puppeting them around zombielike in some way we've never seen before, you could conceivably fork the innies into a separate memory track, have them walk into position, and then return to the original fork, so that from their perspective, they suddenly jumped into position without ever traveling there.

That is what I have been assuming. 

[jacehan]

2 hours ago, arc said:

But she wants to see Mark again. Most likely it is the real Gemma down there.

I mean, Mark S. also wants to find Gemma. She could easily have been told a (false) story about Mark as motivation to keep her compliant. Because I don't know that what we've seen of Outie Gemma would be. (I suppose we haven't seen that much, but still.)

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

That makes me wonder if it's possible to fork the severed memories of a person with multiple innies. That is, could you give one innie a general orientation session so they at least understand what severance is and that they'll be doing some sort of work for their outie, and then copy those memories to a bunch of other innie identities instead of starting each one with a blank slate? That would add interesting new wrinkles to the question of severed identity.

Edited to add: It occurs to me that this potentially offers an explanation for questions like "How did Lumon get the MDR team into place in the middle of the wilderness for the ORTBO session?" Instead of making their outies walk into position and then activating them, or puppeting them around zombielike in some way we've never seen before, you could conceivably fork the innies into a separate memory track, have them walk into position, and then return to the original fork, so that from their perspective, they suddenly jumped into position without ever traveling there.

The pregnant woman with the coffee machine seemed to be her outie, like Gemma, but had certain differences. She wanted to name the child one way, but her husband wanted another. This was very much like the Gemma goes in a room episode. Gemma was herself but when she left she didn’t remember what happened in the rooms  that seems to be a room protocol.  

we’ll see. It is probably a ‘protocol’ that allows them to reset chipped people say an hour, or sleepwalk  

I wonder if the older innies have been reset. Remember the Coup? And the MDR unpleasantness? 
 

 

 

Edited March 4 by Affogato

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, ombre said:

That is what I have been assuming. 

It definitely seem possible given the way the technology has been shown to work, now that we know that the chips support multiple innies. I did realize a potential hiccup, though, which is that there are instances when it seems like Lumon would've probably used the forking technology if it's a standard option.

For instance, after the OTC debacle, it seems like it would've been prudent to fork Mark's innie before bringing him back online, in case their gambit to get him back to work failed—which is exactly what happened when he sabotaged the new MDR team. Then Lumon could've returned to the fork point and brought Mark and his old team back as if they were all returning from the OTC together, with Mark retaining no memory of Lumon surrendering to his pressure campaign.

It's a fun idea, but on further reflection it might open too much of a can of worms.

[seank941]

I hope the show doesn't decide to have multiple innies for every character. I want to like that idea, but I worry it would take away from the characters as we know them. I understand the idea of separating humans into the four tempers of Kier, but if that's something the show wanted to sell me on, I would've needed to see it already. 

Something I really like about this show is that Lumon isn't omnipotent. I like that the one variable they never account for is humanity in the innies. I can't even get on board with the idea that love is stronger than severance, because they made such a point of Mark S. and Ms. Casey not recognizing each other. 

I am a little curious why none of Gemma's innies ever tried to fight back. Helly might be extreme, but every member of MDR showed at least a small rebellious side. 

 

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Dev F said:

It definitely seem possible given the way the technology has been shown to work, now that we know that the chips support multiple innies. I did realize a potential hiccup, though, which is that there are instances when it seems like Lumon would've probably used the forking technology if it's a standard option.

For instance, after the OTC debacle, it seems like it would've been prudent to fork Mark's innie before bringing him back online, in case their gambit to get him back to work failed—which is exactly what happened when he sabotaged the new MDR team. Then Lumon could've returned to the fork point and brought Mark and his old team back as if they were all returning from the OTC together, with Mark retaining no memory of Lumon surrendering to his pressure campaign.

It's a fun idea, but on further reflection it might open too much of a can of worms.

I think that they have tried things before that didn’t work and may have caused the incidents we saw depicted in the first season in pictures of bloody fights. Also I think that Lumon is almost there and doesn’t want to fail this time. There may be an outside competitor, or it may have something to do with bringing back Kier. 

3 hours ago, seank941 said:

I hope the show doesn't decide to have multiple innies for every character. I want to like that idea, but I worry it would take away from the characters as we know them. I understand the idea of separating humans into the four tempers of Kier, but if that's something the show wanted to sell me on, I would've needed to see it already. 

Something I really like about this show is that Lumon isn't omnipotent. I like that the one variable they never account for is humanity in the innies. I can't even get on board with the idea that love is stronger than severance, because they made such a point of Mark S. and Ms. Casey not recognizing each other. 

I am a little curious why none of Gemma's innies ever tried to fight back. Helly might be extreme, but every member of MDR showed at least a small rebellious side. 

 

Miss casey wasn’t alive much, the time she was with the MDR team was the longest time she was awake. She was mostly alone e, probably cobel and mitchick were her team. 
 

we saw her clock the doctor and try to escape. She probably had done that before.  

[lavenderblue]

Yeah, Drummond mentions that Gemma had broken Mauer's fingers on another occasion, and I don't recall if it was specified that she was herself or an innie at the time. I can imagine she's made attempts of various sorts and been defeated.

[Ottis]

On 2/28/2025 at 1:39 AM, Dev F said:

This episode finally crystallized for me how that applies just as much to the show's romantic relationships (something I've seen folks characterize recently as a soapy distraction from the show's real story).

Guilty. And I could have done without the meet cute and the miscarriage and all the rest of the soap opera in this ep. Because it taught me nothing, and part of its point seem to be the trop that the longer a couple is married, and especially if they want children and can't have them, the more they start to come apart. yeah, yeah, we get it.

On 2/28/2025 at 1:39 AM, Dev F said:

And how perfect is it to finally learn that Lumon's mysterious and important work is apparently not about resurrecting dead Eagans or something similarly plotty, but about severing humanity from every unpleasant form of emotional labor, from going to the dentist to airplane turbulence to writing thank-you notes?

Hope it's more than that, because that was apparent early in the first season when we saw that innies did work while outties enjoyed life (though their lives don't seem like much fun to me, and the weather is always gloomy). Expanding that concept to include the dentist is honestly a letdown. Speaking as someone who has had multiple crowns, I get that people don't like the dentist but this massive project is overkill if that's the goal.

On 3/1/2025 at 12:02 AM, Starchild said:

When Devin is arguing with the doctor about what's going on with Mark, the doctor says he's reintegrating. Devin says, "no he isn't, we're not doing that again."

Again? Has he tried to reintegrate before and doesn't remember?

Did anyone else hear this? Or did I just mishear? Or did Mark tell her about Petey and that's what she means?

The show does offer a heavy sense of constant experimentation with many failures and incremental progress. In some ways it's like the Battlestar Galactica theme of "all of this has happened before, and will happen again." I think a lot of what we are seeing are various characters trying to break the cycle.

On 3/1/2025 at 12:13 PM, overtherainbow said:

This was the most unsettling episode of the show so far. They crossed the line from getting vulnerable people to undergo the procedure to kidnapping and imprisoning and experimenting on someone. 

Maybe? I think Gemma had to have consented at some point, otherwise we should be seeing Lumon kidnapping people left and right. The experimentation feels like Gemma is "working off" an obligation or contract of some sort. Maybe Lumon preys on people in despair, and entraps them? 

Edited March 5 by Ottis

[seank941]

9 hours ago, Ottis said:

Maybe? I think Gemma had to have consented at some point, otherwise we should be seeing Lumon kidnapping people left and right. The experimentation feels like Gemma is "working off" an obligation or contract of some sort. Maybe Lumon preys on people in despair, and entraps them? 

I have to agree with this. If Lumon was kidnapping people then why go to so much trouble with Gemma? It would be much easier to kidnap single, unattached people. I'm guessing she was promised a child of some sort when she was finished, and now she's regretting her decision. Mark said they decided not to adopt, and in hindsight, maybe that's what she would rather have done.

[tennisgurl]

Poor Dichen Lachman, she can just never leave the Dollhouse. 

I think its possible that Gemma signed up for some kind of Lumen based contract to help her have a baby, but she presumably didn't know about faking her own death or being stuck writing Christmas thank you cards on a loop forever. 

I swear, I about leapt through my TV to throttle that stupid doctor in his stupid sweater when he told Gemma that Mark had remarried and has a daughter, what an utter ***********. Mark and Gemma have been in the same damn building the whole time, missing each other! The drama! 

[Milburn Stone]

Only got to this episode last night and now there are too many posts to read all of them, but I have read some of them and been genuinely enlightened by them. So thank you. (You know who you are.)

Here's what I got from my own viewing last night, which is pretty simple. They need to make the rescue of Gemma really meaningful when it happens, something the audience will cheer for, and in order to do that, they're making her Testing Floor existence as close to hell on earth as anyone has yet devised or even imagined. I felt like I was living that hell as I watched. Kudos, show! (Not being sarcastic.)

[Milburn Stone]

BTW, don't know if anyone in this thread or others has given voice to the following epiphany (it's entirely possible someone has), but when they showed a closeup of Helly R.'s heels, Mrs. Stone became sure that the present tense of this show is the 1990s. Kind of fits with other stuff, like the computers, and "Mrs. Selvig"'s car. (If more about the present of the show is revealed in future episodes, don't spoil me.)

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

BTW, don't know if anyone in this thread or others has given voice to the following epiphany (it's entirely possible someone has), but when they showed a closeup of Helly R.'s heels, Mrs. Stone became sure that the present tense of this show is the 1990s. Kind of fits with other stuff, like the computers, and "Mrs. Selvig"'s car. (If more about the present of the show is revealed in future episodes, don't spoil me.)

I feel they are designing it so you can’t put a finger on the year, so it won’t look dated 20 years.  But yes, “looks like a pump, feels like a sneaker”.  On one of the podcasts the actress says they really worked to find shoes she can run in. 

Edited March 12 by Affogato

[SoMuchTV]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

BTW, don't know if anyone in this thread or others has given voice to the following epiphany (it's entirely possible someone has), but when they showed a closeup of Helly R.'s heels, Mrs. Stone became sure that the present tense of this show is the 1990s. Kind of fits with other stuff, like the computers, and "Mrs. Selvig"'s car. (If more about the present of the show is revealed in future episodes, don't spoil me.)

 

37 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I feel they are designing it so you can’t put a finger on the year, so it won’t look dated 20 years.  But yes, “looks like a pump, feels like a sneaker”.  On one of the podcasts the actress says they really worked to find shoes she can run in. 

The thing is, though, in multiple episodes, the “outside” characters use some version of a smartphone. Maybe not the very latest, but definitely not 90s. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

 

The thing is, though, in multiple episodes, the “outside” characters use some version of a smartphone. Maybe not the very latest, but definitely not 90s. 

That was my point exactly. Stuff is drawn recognizably from different periods. 

[SoMuchTV]

On 3/12/2025 at 9:26 PM, Affogato said:

That was my point exactly. Stuff is drawn recognizably from different periods. 

But, if you’re trying to pin down a time period, technology that exists in the 20-teens-plus would rule out it being set in the 90s. I could go with some kind of time warp thing affecting the innies, but that doesn’t explain the lack of more recent cars in the outie world. 

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

But, if you’re trying to pin down a time period, technology that exists in the 20-teens-plus would rule out it being set in the 90s. I could go with some kind of time warp thing affecting the innies, but that doesn’t explain the lack of more recent cars in the outie world. 

It isn’t set in the 90s. That isn’t the point. The point is not that.  You are not supposed to ‘pin down a time period’. Of all the mysteries here, that one isn’t a mystery. 
 

 

[ombre]

When I try to reconcile these things, it speaks to me of a very different globalism. Those big old boats of cars scream 1980's American builds to me. And since cars are a particularly global commodity, every time I get to wondering about this topic I circle back to the question of whether the US is a pariah country to the rest of the world. Excelling in things that Lumon pushes, far behind in things Lumon doesn't care about. 

My thinking is probably heavily influenced by Ben winters's book, underground airline (I *think* that's the title) that creates a version of the US in which Lincoln was assassinated en route to Washington and slavery was just never quite abolished in the US. Most states did eventually, but those that dug in really dug in, so the whole country was tarred with that brush and therefore - in the 21st century - was aligned with the countries that are now keenest on civil rights abuses. Really good book. Came out just when Colson whitehead's underground railroad did, and they were similar and whitehead's book is far more monumental, but I still find myself thinking a *lot* about the modern order that winters describes. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, ombre said:

When I try to reconcile these things, it speaks to me of a very different globalism. Those big old boats of cars scream 1980's American builds to me. And since cars are a particularly global commodity, every time I get to wondering about this topic I circle back to the question of whether the US is a pariah country to the rest of the world. Excelling in things that Lumon pushes, far behind in things Lumon doesn't care about. 

My thinking is probably heavily influenced by Ben winters's book, underground airline (I *think* that's the title) that creates a version of the US in which Lincoln was assassinated en route to Washington and slavery was just never quite abolished in the US. Most states did eventually, but those that dug in really dug in, so the whole country was tarred with that brush and therefore - in the 21st century - was aligned with the countries that are now keenest on civil rights abuses. Really good book. Came out just when Colson whitehead's underground railroad did, and they were similar and whitehead's book is far more monumental, but I still find myself thinking a *lot* about the modern order that winters describes. 

Yes, it is an AU. I haven’t read the book you mention. Interesting idea. 

[Affogato]

I have heard enough people talk about how shows look dated. The ‘80s had particularly distinctive styles, but people are still talking about the fashions in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, too. And flipphones take them out of the story completely. Or, Kier forbid, a gigantic satellite handset. Can barely watch!! The original Battlestar Galactica had telephone headsets and levi jean jackets. so if I was making a show like Severance the first thing I would do is try to design the show to avoid looking dated, and one way is to design your own terminals, which they did, and use old cars, and have people dress in ways that weren’t fashionable at any one time. Just mix it up.  It is a plus if the world looks fantastic, add that it is always winter, and it is its own world, with its own look and its own color scheme. 

I don’t think the old cars mean anything specifically, except that this is a place that used to be more successful when there were manufacturing and mining jobs.  Kier is in the ‘Gas Belt’ and it is rusty, and people drive their cars until the wheels fall out. Dylan wanting to buy a new car would be an appalling idea to Gretchen. I’m guessing the severed people have a house because of the job and that they are paid a good wage by the standards of the area, but I doubt they are well paid.

 

[applecrisp]

this show reminds me of Enlightened on HBO , Mike White and Laura Darn  and if they are trying to get rid of people having bad experiences the movie with Jim Carry  Something about the Spotless mind. 

Throw in a little bit of The Giver by Lois Lowry.

Or I am way off.

[lovett1979]

1 hour ago, applecrisp said:

the movie with Jim Carry  Something about the Spotless mind. 

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (a great film, BTW)

 

[paramitch]

I'm not sure I liked this episode. I respected it and think it's probably necessary for the story, but if the goal was to get me to care about Mark and Gemma, I'm not sure it succeeded. For one thing, while I absolutely empathize with those who desperately want kids and can't have them, it bothers me that it's such a constantly used trope, and I especially dislike when it swallows a person or couple's entire identity. It's just kind of lazy storytelling to me. Even though here on this show, which is so increasingly filled with references to birth and babies, that aspect is probably operating on another level too. But... I don't know.

It's also hard for me to like Gemma because she is so clearly shown to have been actively colluding in her situation, at least early on. This doesn't mean she deserves what happens to her, but I just don't like or care about her very much. I still don't feel like I know her, and I feel like Dichen Lachlan kept her very remote and rather distant. I love her Innie. I want her to be saved. But I don't care about her and Mark as a couple all that much.

But on a technical level, there was some incredible filmmaking here -- some of the shots and transitions were incredible, and the way we saw things, hours, books, papers, etc., pile up and environments change across time was so effective (if incredibly difficult to do).

Overall, I thought this was quietly creepy, and very hard to watch. While I didn't feel like we got to know Gemma much, I was horrified at her life -- this woman is going through worse than punishment or imprisonment; she is actively suffering hell on a constant basis. What Gemma is going through makes the experiences of the Innies on season 1 look like a day at a theme park.

What gets me is that all Gemma's poor Innie does is experience hell, over and over again. But does seem like it's leaking through to her Outie, and bad enough that her outie desperately wants to escape. And how incredibly gross was the doctor  (ROBBIE BENSON!) being with her? He's obviously crossed the line and is in love with her (or in limerence or something toxic and gross). Wearing the sweater, saying she likes him, lying to her about Mark remarrying (Aghghg! This enraged me). So not only is Gemma going through hell 24/7 but she also has to deal with being perved on and touched and TORTURED without her consent.

Onward to poor Mark. Again, Reghabi is so antagonistic and cruel. Why? Why is she like this? Why does she treat Devon so brutally? Why not try to talk to her, to calm her down as they care for Mark, and simply explain the situation?

Instead, she did what she's already been doing to Mark. Refused to explain, treated her cruelly, given her cryptic answers, until Devon was pretty much forced to pick up the phone. And even there, Reghabi could have stopped her by being kind and being human. It's just so odd to me because it seems to be a deliberate choice, but it's just such a bad one. This woman NEEDS Mark. She needs him to be on her side. She needs Devon to be on her side. There were so many ways she could have handled this that would have calmed the situation instead of needlessly exacerbating it.

So I really hope there's a reason for it. Because otherwise it just feels needlessly frustrating. There is no reason for this woman to treat Mark or Devon this way. It's actively undermining her own goals. But I feel like there is a reason for it, and we'll find out. Maybe she's a victim herself. Maybe she's trying to atone for severing others. Maybe she lost a severed loved one. Who knows.

Beautiful performances by Adam Scott (as always -- that man is such an underrated actor) and all, and it was fun to see Robbie Benson, who was terrifically creepy, and Sandra Bernhardt. Apologies to Sandra, but I've always thought Sandra had a rather mean habitual expression and she certainly used it well here.

I was really worried at the very end there -- he's awake, but is Mark actually okay? Which Mark is he? Innie, Outie, or integrated (Mark 3)? I was afraid he would ask Devon something like, "Who are you?"

If this is Integrated Mark (Mark 3), I will miss Innie Mark. It feels like a loss. He was so sweet and kind.

On 2/27/2025 at 10:39 PM, Dev F said:

I've never really understood the complaints that Severance is filled with weirdness for weirdness's sake, à la the random polar bears on Lost, but if they persist after this week I'll be even more baffled. For me this episode functioned as sort of a Rosetta Stone that illuminates the core themes of the series: It's about work, but not just in the sense of white-collar labor. It's about the struggle and suffering that defines human life, and the numbness and alienation that comes from cutting oneself off from that work to avoid the inevitable pain.

And how perfect is it to finally learn that Lumon's mysterious and important work is apparently not about resurrecting dead Eagans or something similarly plotty, but about severing humanity from every unpleasant form of emotional labor, from going to the dentist to airplane turbulence to writing thank-you notes?

For the moment, it seems like the purpose of Macrodata Refinement is to isolate the negative emotions associated with these various obligations, with the Testing Floor verifying that none of the unpleasantness is leaking through for the outie to experience afterward. But I wonder if another part of it might be to capture the unique signature of each negative experience so the chip can activate the appropriate innie regardless of location—so that, say, if you're having a pleasant plane trip and suddenly the turbulence kicks in, your chip will automatically switch to the Dealing with Turbulence innie and spare you the suffering. 

That seems like the kind of product that Lumon could legitimately market as "one of the greatest moments in the history of this planet"—a brain implant that neatly filters out every daily struggle—and also a ticket to a horrifying dystopia of lost, broken people who don't know how to deal with pain. (The Mark/Gemma situation always makes me think of the quote from Christopher Nolan's Memento: "How am I supposed to heal if I can't feel time?")

But regardless of exactly where this is all going, it certainly seems to be going somewhere meaningful—cohering on a thematic level even though the exact contours of the literal story are still not entirely clear.

Brilliant post! I'm not sure I agree with you on the idea that "work" -- in terms of relationships and life -- is the throughline, but it's an intriguing idea, and I am fascinated by the idea of removing unpleasantness from life by giving it to your alter ego. But as you note, suffering is a part of life. It is what teaches us, moves us, helps us to grow. We value those we have because we know what it's like to experience loss. We value health even more after we experience sickness or injury. Removing those things ends up with two crippled halves -- the Outie who has no idea how to face or handle adversity or pain, and the Innie, whose life is (like Gemma's) a series of negative, brutal, or unpleasant moments and who must inevitably be twisted by that relentless suffering.

The single moment that got me most in retrospect was Gemma's Innie asking for a break, and Evil Doctor smiling and saying it had been six weeks. But not for her. She never gets a break. It's all hell, hell, hell.

I just would never remotely want to do this. Beyond the fact that I wouldn't want to torture myself, even a self I don't know -- I would hate to miss the moments that help to carve me out -- painful or not -- and make me who I am. For another thing, I'm a control freak. What if something happens while my Innie is driving? Something amazing? Something life-changing? Or even something scary like near-death or death? Every time my Innie took over, I would be terrified it would be the last time I was awake.

On 2/28/2025 at 2:44 AM, seank941 said:

I like that we finally got some answers about Ms. Casey and what's in the black hallway, but for some reason I'm still not warming up to the character. I don't know if it's the writing, the acting, or something else, but I'm worried this will become the Mark and Gemma vs Lumon story, and I can't really get there. 

Speaking of which, I missed the MDR team. I know they were not necessary for the episode, but I was hoping we could get a glimpse of Dylan in a wellness session or something. 

This was the first time I found myself actually disliking Devon. She's smart enough to know that calling Cobel is the worst thing she could do in the situation. She might as well call Drummond and have Mark locked up for the rest of his life. It felt like she was pissed about not being included in the plan, and wanted to take control of something.

I agree with you on Miss Casey and on missing our team. It was nice to see Mark's past and what he has been grieving, but there was something slightly missing for me here, literally and figuratively.

I had a lot of sympathy for Devon, and I understood why she was so scared and upset. All Reghabi had to do was be kind and calm her down, so I understood why Devon panicked and went, "surely Ms. Cobel is better than this scary woman doing impromptu brain surgery." She was calling Reghabi's bluff, but Reghabi did nothing to try to mitigate the situation at all. It really frustrated me.

On 2/28/2025 at 9:38 AM, AstridM said:

Awww, I thought he looked ok. Ice Castles, baby! 😁

"We forgot about the flowers..." (I watched it a zillion times in my childhood, when HBO had like 10 movies per month. Good times!)

On 2/28/2025 at 3:27 PM, Affogato said:

The casting of Dichen Lachlen gracefully acknowledges the DNA the two shows share. It is odd more people don’t talk about it. She did an incredible job this episode and I think she has grown better looking. 

I really don't think there is anything deliberate referencing Dollhouse here, nor do I think it is anywhere in Severance's league (neither is Lost, for that matter). It was sexist and grotesque at the time, and it's only aged more poorly in the wake of revelations about Whedon. I also thought season 2's premise simply falls apart upon closer analysis, although it was well acted. For me, it's one of those things where once you see it, you can't unsee it.

On 3/1/2025 at 2:21 PM, JenE4 said:

I forgot to click the + while reading, but in response to whether Gemma was kidnapped by Lumen… I think she willingly signed up for it. She was obviously targeted by Lumen because of her tragic loss of at least one pregnancy and/or failed IVF (“third time’s a charm”). Lumen sent her the little puzzles in the mail that she thought were fun, testing whether she would be a good candidate for the experiment. Seems to me they convinced her what if we could take away the pain you feel over not being able to have a child by doing these fun little puzzles? Before trying to escape, she asked the doctor, “And then I’ll see Mark?” Granted, it seems like they perhaps kept her prisoner afterwards but she also didn’t seem too distraught and was compliant up until that point (“How many rooms today?”). She might have been saying goodbye to Mark for a little bit, not necessarily knowing this experiment would take 5 years! Though, it’s obviously a success by any measure, and the doctor is just holding onto her as long as he can because he’s fallen in love with her, putting himself in the role of the husband in the dystopian Christmas scene. Interesting that Gemma has several innies. Cold Harbor is a new door to her, and yet it’s the file that Mark has been working on. It’s the project that all on the Severed floor are watching. They brought back Mark’s coworkers so Mark would finish Cold Harbor. And it also seems to be the final experiment for Gemma that once she enters the Cold Harbor room and completes her cycle there, the doctor will have to let her go. Since the Cold Harbor room is almost ready AND Mark is 96% done with the Cold Harbor file, it seems pretty likely that refining the data is creating these experiential rooms. Gemma has made it through nonstop dental work, thank you notes from hell, and even a plane crash without remembering. What’s the absolute worst thing she could experience? Losing another child. Who’s the one person who knows exactly what Gemma’s emotions would be in that moment? Mark. I think Mark is basically reconstructing the experience of Gemma losing their child. They’ll put her through it, and if that doesn’t spark a memory or reintegration within the innie, well, then that’s some damn good quality control and there’s nothing that’s going to break it out in the real world.

JenE4, I always look forward to your posts, but I hope it's okay to ask -- could you start using hard returns/paragraph breaks? I find the huge unbroken walls of text so hard to read. But no pressure.

Your idea meanwhile is really scary -- it made me wonder -- what if the idea is not for Gemma/Mark to lose a child again, but for Mark to lose GEMMA again? His entire goal was to escape loss but having that loss follow his Innie inside may be crucial in some way. It's just extra scary because it feels very much like Gemma is doomed no matter what. 

It was extra creepy to watch the Lumon men watch her and comment on her impending loss like she was an animal they would eventually have to euthanize.

On 3/2/2025 at 2:05 PM, ombre said:

This makes complete sense to me. It feels like they've had some rooms that were generic terrors (dentist, plane crash) and some that were tailored to her (thank you letters, where she also seemed to be closer to her true self, although that might be because the experience in the room was closer to reality). 

Ive got to say, the idea that people would simply trim out the parts of life they don't like or don't want is just so repugnant to me. The experiences that we can predict well enough to want to skip are often useful for learning to navigate our emotions in the stressful moments we can't predict. Spinning this all out, what would the world be if everybody on the outside had missed the formative experiences of getting through, for a minor example, visits to the dentist?  A silly example, maybe, but how many people would want to give up the first moments of seeing their child alive just to skip the pain of childbirth? What a weak tea version of life that would be. 

Finally... Oh, those piles of books stacking up, disappearing, stacking up again. Too real, show. Too real! 

Great points -- I definitely agree! But I am so with you on not wanting to lose those moments. Unpleasant or not, they contribute to who we are.

I am chronically ill, and just spent 6 weeks in the hospital over the holidays. It wasn't fun on any level. But I wouldn't want that to be some kind of "blank." I was well cared for, I learned about myself and what I can handle. I was braver than I expected sometimes and also impatient, needy, and frustrated. I had incredible conversations with nurses and doctors and physical therapists as I pushed myself to get well and get out of that bed. Etc. I value that time. It has helped me to continue to be a better person and one who appreciates my life and whatever health I have.

On 3/2/2025 at 2:37 PM, Orff99 said:

Second, Selvig being a Lumon soldier and her position in the "outie" world being lactation consultant. Her advice was sound. So maybe she provides that service to the women giving birth to what Gemma has "sired" - and maybe those women aren't breastfeeding, or there are children not being born from women, which means they would need replacement milk, and the best options are either formula or....

goat's milk. Truly. The best natural alternative to human milk, for human babies, is goat milk. It's nurturing.

Mammalians nurturable.

Maybe the nurturable mammals are not the goats, but the babies born from Gemma's eggs (and maybe others). The goats are raised for their milk to nurture the human babies.

We heard "they're not ready yet". Not the goats - the babies.

All of this is so smart, and I agree that all of these biological birth references have to be going somewhere. The goats not only could work on a tech level (they need them to grow up so they can get more goats' milk?) but they are so vulnerable and their little bleats sound like babies, and they're even being cradled and bottle-fed. We've seen repeated goat motifs too -- goat pictures, goat masks, goat costumes. I mean, what the heck?! Goats everywhere. Which are also very pagan and ancient symbols on a variety of levels for chaos, sexuality, etc. Aghghgh. I don't know.

On 3/2/2025 at 6:27 PM, seank941 said:

Seeing Gemma's experiences, it actually brings up some new questions about the innie personality. If you only use your innie to go to the dentist or a few unpleasant tasks, what are they actually like? The MDR team works 8 hours a day for almost the entire year, and they are still basically teenagers. How long would it take for a normal person's innie to even become a child?

I'm also curious how the chip would work in a normal person. I actually like going to the dentist, and sometimes you need to answer questions while you are in the chair. I also know people who enjoy filling out Christmas cards, and corresponding with relatives, even if they are thank you cards. Are there settings for the severance chips?

Really well said. First off, this is my main concern -- in Gemma's case, at least, they are creating an Innie whose life is nothing but suffering. This is eventually going to really twist her psyche and have an effect on her physical health. I just don't see how this is viable. And of course it's a horrible thing to do to anyone.

And I agree with you on those little unpleasant experiences. They can be valuable. But the inclusion of some of the more mundane ones here also points to what we see so often in the super-wealthy -- this desire to avoid all circumstances, all unpleasantness. They become childish and insulated to the point of immobility. Imagine being so narcissistic and obsessed with pleasure that you cannot face the remotest moment of being bored? Sad? Tired? Sick? What happens when inevitably you DO have to handle those things -- and have no toolbox for doing so?

I remember wondering about this back with the pregnant woman. I've never wanted kids or to be pregnant myself, but if I had been, I absolutely would have wanted to experience that pregnancy! There's so much irreplaceable and important about experiencing that on multiple levels, it's bizarre to me that someone would want to skip the entire thing. (Now skipping childbirth? I get!)

On 3/3/2025 at 5:07 PM, Dev F said:

That makes me wonder if it's possible to fork the severed memories of a person with multiple innies. That is, could you give one innie a general orientation session so they at least understand what severance is and that they'll be doing some sort of work for their outie, and then copy those memories to a bunch of other innie identities instead of starting each one with a blank slate? That would add interesting new wrinkles to the question of severed identity.

I really hope this isn't the case, because for me it would really damage what it feels like they're trying to explore. It could certainly be the case, but for me it would overcomplicate a lot of elements and make the story less personal somehow, for me. Four or five Innies just doesn't work as well for me.

On 3/12/2025 at 6:51 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Here's what I got from my own viewing last night, which is pretty simple. They need to make the rescue of Gemma really meaningful when it happens, something the audience will cheer for, and in order to do that, they're making her Testing Floor existence as close to hell on earth as anyone has yet devised or even imagined. I felt like I was living that hell as I watched. Kudos, show! (Not being sarcastic.)

Absolutely, I felt the same way. What's interesting is that I think when/if she is saved, of course it's got to be Helly who is somehow involved, right? For maximum drama? 

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, paramitch said:

 

I really don't think there is anything deliberate referencing Dollhouse here, nor do I think it is anywhere in Severance's league (neither is Lost, for that matter). It was sexist and grotesque at the time, and it's only aged more poorly in the wake of revelations about Whedon. I also thought season 2's premise simply falls apart upon closer analysis, although it was well acted. For me, it's one of those things where once you see it, you can't unsee it.J  

I actually disagree about Dollhouse. I also disagree about Whedon. He personally may have been a bad and abusive show runner but that does not mean there isn’t huge and important meaning in the exploration of the feelinfa and motivations of abused and abusive people. It is a psychological drama, not an inspirational one, and about things I feel most people step over without examining. 

[paramitch]

14 hours ago, Affogato said:

I actually disagree about Dollhouse. I also disagree about Whedon. He personally may have been a bad and abusive show runner but that does not mean there isn’t huge and important meaning in the exploration of the feelinfa and motivations of abused and abusive people. It is a psychological drama, not an inspirational one, and about things I feel most people step over without examining. 

I'm sorry for being so harsh on "Dollhouse," which is obviously a show that means a lot to you, and I know many people love it, so you're not alone. It's just not a show I like or think compares favorably to "Severance." But we can agree to disagree!