Past Seasons Talk: Upstairs Downstairs Revisited

[David T. Cole]

Six months on, Lady Mary mourns Matthew, and feels little attraction to baby George. Lord Grantham and Branson dispute the management of the estate and struggle to pay death duties.

[Tara Ariano]

I don't blame Mary. That baby is bullshit.

[mad_typist]

A few observations:

When Edith said, "Sometimes I feel like God hates me" I automatically went, "If by 'God' you mean 'Julian Fellowes' then.... yes."

I enjoyed how jauntily Bates set off on his murder stroll. I can only pray that this the last we'll hear of this, but we'll see what the Xmas special has in store for us. I know I can't take another murder trial or another scene of Anna getting hysterical about Bates in prison. I will say at least the traffic accident SEEMS like the sort of thing that people won't follow up on. And I give Bates credit, because I expected something more along the lines of "Oh, Mr. Green had an accident. He seems to have fallen onto my knife." I hope that his day trip is just a fakeout and that he really had nothing to do with it, but we'll see.

Looks like the romances for the upcoming year will be: Branson and Sarah Bunting, Isobel and whoever that silver fox was, and Molesley and Braxton. I'm most excited for Molesley, but if anyone rivals Edith for the Job of this show it's him, so I'm not expecting this to work out for the poor bastard.

Lastly, Rose continues to annoy me, because on one hand I feel like they want her to be daring and progressive in the way that Sybil was, but they have failed to give Rose even a tenth of the character depth that Sybil had. She's just so devoid of any substance or likeability as a character that she feels like a massive distraction.

Overall, I liked the general happy tone of the episode even though we had some clouds on the horizon. And I always enjoy Mary's casual, "Oh, yet ANOTHER suitor, woe is me!" attitude.

[MNP]

For me, this episode was made by Mr. Mason and Mrs. Patmore. Mr. Mason is just genuinely kind, and seeing Mrs. Patmore being so sweet to Daisy was nice. Of course the Dowager Countess rocked it, as usual!

[Tara Ariano]

Mr. Mason is very sweet, but I'm not really sure how Daisy turned into a character we're supposed to root for. Obviously you can't root for Ivy over her, but Daisy's been a sour jerk most of the time we've known her.

[Lindsey]

I think the show always expected Daisy to be an audience favorite, but it's never really done anything to back that up.  I can't decide if the biggest problem with Daisy is the writing, the acting, or both (I think it's probably both).  It's been ten years in show time since we met her and she hasn't grown or matured at all.  I assumed she was supposed to be about fifteen or so in the first episode, so her lack of maturity seemed reasonable, but she's still acting like a selfish, immature brat ten years later.

Add to that her total lack of interesting story lines since she pretended to marry poor, dead William and she is far and away the Pierce of Downton Abbey.  I'll even take Rose over her.

[David T. Cole]

Rose over Daisy is the ultimate insult to Daisy. Good work :)

[Tara Ariano]

I never would have thought so, but I agree! Rose does stupid shit, but at least she's having some fun.

[Lauren T.]

I can't decide if the biggest problem with Daisy is the writing, the acting, or both (I think it's probably both).  It's been ten years in show time since we met her and she hasn't grown or matured at all.

Being stuck in the kitchen all day every day and doing such hard work would wear even the cheeriest person down. Especially when you don't see a way out of service and/or don't have a lot of natural ambition.

[Lindsey]

Being stuck in the kitchen all day every day and doing such hard work would wear even the cheeriest person down. Especially when you don't see a way out of service and/or don't have a lot of natural ambition.

It doesn't bother me that she seems unhappy, it bothers me that she's spiteful towards characters who have less power than she does, like Ivy.  I agree that it would suck to be in service in that world, but for the last couple of years her entire story has been that she's into a guy who isn't into her and she takes that out on everyone around her.  Her problem doesn't seem to be with her work, it's with her social life.  I actually miss the first couple of seasons, when her story was about her finding some status and satisfaction in her job.

If Daisy didn't like her work (which I would totally buy, because you're right, she's basically stuck in a hot basement all day chopping onions) or the others treated her badly (which Mrs. Patmore used to do, but now she's on Team Daisy) I'd agree with you. But she seems to like what she does, and if she didn't she could go live with Mr. Mason.  Plus she's going to inherit the Mason farm, so she's actually better off than some of the other characters, including Ivy. 

If Daisy were cast as a villain, like Thomas, she might be more interesting but the impression I've always gotten is that we're supposed to see Daisy as sympathetic and I just don't. 

[maraleia]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's past seasons. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[Mrsjumbo]

I'm re watching the series. What do we think of the burned soldier that claimed to be Patrick Crawley? I think it was Peter Gordon that worked with Patrick. 1. He gave up way too easily if it was Patrick 2. He had vague memories & Edith filled them in, ala the Long Island medium.

[helenamonster]

I think if the burned soldier had ended up being Patrick Crawley, he would have stuck around (or he would have been revisited after Matthew died). I think that story had more to do with Edith and exploring her feelings for Patrick, since we never got to see them interact. The one thing I think the story does tell us (I haven't watched Season 2 in awhile so my memory's a little hazy) is that Patrick did have feelings for Edith. Before then, it was never known how Patrick felt about Edith, since we never saw him and he probably didn't want to muck up his and Mary's almost-engagement. But perhaps Patrick had shared his feelings for Edith with Peter, who played on them to try and work his way into the family, potentially conning Matthew out of his inheritance.

[Whimsy]

I just finished binge watching all four seasons.  Luckily enough, the seasons are really short, unlike US television!  I watched it on Amazon Prime.  The episodes were labeled "original UK version".  How were they different?  Were there cuts? 

 

Anyway, I'm glad I caught up on this show.  I'd been meaning to watch for some time now.  I knew a couple of storylines since they were written about in Entertainment Weekly, but it didn't really ruin the enjoyment of the show for me.

[Carrie Ann]

PBS cuts like 7 minutes out of each episode when they air here for some stupid reason, so yeah, the UK version is definitely the one you want to watch.

[photo fox]

Agreed, @Carrie Ann. I still can't believe how much they cut out of Thomas's story in the first series, considering how severely that altered the sympathetic potential of the character.

[ZoloftBlob]

Does the packaged set that has the first three seasons contain the cut bits? Or do I need to invest in the UK dvds?

[Carrie Ann]

I think the DVDs are all the complete episodes. The issue is about PBS needing to squeeze in their sponsor messages to bookend the episodes, but as I've said repeatedly about this and Sherlock--make the timeslots a half-hour longer and put 30 minutes of sponsor crap in there. Honestly. No one would care, and probably some people would accidentally watch it.

[Andorra]

Unfortunately all DVDs are the UK version. It is good in the first two series, because there PBS shortened the episodes, but it is bad in all series after that, because then PBS added scenes to each episode and those additional scenes are not on the DVD. Not even in the extras! If you haven't watched them on PBS directly, the scenes are lost.

 

Series 3 was also shown in a different version in Germany. It had even more scenes than the PBS version and it is a pity those were lost. There was a scene of Tom and Sybil in Ireland and other scenes I really missed in the UK version, but ufortunately they're lost and can't be bought anywhere.

 

I hope they will bring out a blue ray box after the show has finished and add all the scenes!

[AZChristian]

Every morning on our cruise, I awoke to episodes from season one and two of Downton Abbey. A vacation just can't get any better than that!

[Avaleigh]

From the spoiler thread:

 

As for Mary not telling her parents about what Edith did?  Do you really think that was out of some sense of honor toward her sister?  LMAO, Mary never gave a shit about Edith enough to protect her.  If she told Robert about the letter then he would find out what she did with Pamuk.  She was desperate to keep the truth from him.  Moreover, Edith did not tell her parents about Pamuk either.  She didn't tattle to them.  She didn't write  a letter to a gossip column either.  She wrote a letter to one man, that's it.  And not one likely to spread the rumor either.  So Mary doesn't get brownie points for not tattling about that letter.  She did something worse, which was lie to Anthony and ruin Edith's potential marriage.

 

 

I wasn't suggesting that Mary should earn points for not telling them about Edith's betrayal of the family. I was saying that Edith lucked out in not having them ever find out about what she'd done. I definitely never said that Mary was being honorable for not squealing on Edith. Edith wrote the letter with the intention that other people find out about it and that's when the whispers started. Evelyn Napier found out about it and he found out that Edith was the author of the letter yet he wasn't the recipient. I also disagree that just because Edith didn't tattle to them directly that this somehow means she didn't really want them to find out what Mary had done. Edith thought of Mary as a slut and wanted other people to think this way about her too. I totally disagree that she wrote to the man thinking that the rumor wouldn't be spread. Edith isn't an idiot. She knew full well what she was doing, what the consequences would be, and she didn't care because she wanted to hurt her sister. I completely disagree that Mary sabotaging Edith's one proposal made them at all even. What Edith did was try to wreck *all* future proposals for Mary, not counting the residual damage that would end up reflecting on the family as a whole.

 

As for what she said about Gillingham?  Bear in mind that Edith didn't know Mary was upset about it.  Mary didn't betray any emotion, she just announced it cooly.  She shed a tear and walked away, all with her back turned to Edith.  And it's not reasonable to expect Edith to even think Mary would be upset about it.  Matthew was dead less than a year, and up until a few months earlier Mary had been too catatonic with grief to leave the house.  She and Tony spent some time together at a house party and he seemed keen on her. That was all Edith knew.

 

 

This is another area where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Edith was commenting simply out of surprise. It is typical of her to get in a dig at her sister in this sense and she has a history of commenting in a negative way on Mary's love life. She did it with the Duke, Evelyn, Matthew, and Richard so I don't know why it would be different with Gillingham. I personally thought the only reason she mentioned it was to prick at Mary. 

 

We can come up with a list of Edith being snarky with Mary and it isn't all just in season 1. Edith was nasty about Sir Richard before she'd even met him yet this is often overlooked when people talk about Mary criticizing Gregson. It also seems to be overlooked that Gregson was trying a little too hard and I can understand why that was met with suspicion by Mary who'd only just been involved with a social climbing newspaperman. She did it in typical Mary fashion but I didn't think her wary attitude towards Gregson was purely about getting in digs at her sister. When Mary and Sybil tried to comfort her after her aborted wedding to Anthony, she rejected them. I'm not saying that she was wrong to do this, people feel the way that they feel, but it seems to me that Edith is given a pass on things like this whereas Mary would likely have been read the riot act for going off on sisters who were attempting to comfort her after something so emotionally devastating. 

 

I also feel like there's this idea that because Mary had over a year's worth of happiness with Matthew that she no longer has the right to complain or that she's won in life in general and I disagree. 

 

And no, I don't think Edith has been petty with Mary since S3.  What she said to her on her wedding day wasn't nice, but it was true. She was being honest.  No, it wasn't the right moment for it but then over Sybil's death bed wasn't the right moment for Mary to be "honest" when Edith offered her an olive branch, either.  That was much worse.

I don't understand why honesty of this kind is acceptable from Edith but not from Mary. If Mary had lied to Edith and pretended that they'd get along better just to create some falsely positive moment, I don't see how that's a good thing. I thought Mary's compromise made sense in the moment and I also felt that Edith understood her answer. Edith was asking a question. She wasn't saying to Mary "Hey, I want us to get along better. I want us to be better sisters. I'm willing to try if you are." Edith asked a question and Mary answered her honestly. When Edith had the chance to wish Mary well on what might have been one of the happiest days in her life, Edith couldn't bring herself to grow up and let go of the snarkiness.  

 

In many ways I actually think that Mary and Edith are a lot alike. 

 

I am going based on what I see and hear on screen and what the people involved with the show have actually said.  And on the scorecard.

 

 

I feel that I am too. Obviously we have very different interpretations of what we've seen. 

[ZoloftBlob]

In many ways I actually think that Mary and Edith are a lot alike.

 

Oh I agree with this completely. Edith would love to be Mary, and most of the rivalry between them is because she's trying to outbitch the Queen of Bitchery. To a point, I do think her character has evolved a bit, while Mary has devolved back to immature bitchy Mary, but Edith has a nasty side, and a selfish side. I do think there's some unexplained unfairness in how Robert and Cora deal with both of them - for all that Mary is the favorite of Robert's, its never really explained why Robert favors her, and Cora pretty clearly favored Sybil and there's been an all around bunch of intentional ignoring of Edith - but Edith and Mary are a lot alike... Edith just isn't as good at being a bitch.

[Cameltoes]

That's my biggest problem - Mary has become less mature and it's completely nonsensical given what they both and the entire family have been through. And I just don't see the type of unnecessary cruelty from Edith that we've seen from Mary. Not recently. Edith did get some digs in the beginning of season 2 (1916! 7-8 years ago in show time) but she changed dramatically during the war years and after Sybil died. Off the top of my head I can think of 5 petty Mary digs. Her adoring and devoted husband had to scold her on multiple occasions for it. It makes the character look absurd. She acts like she is a spoiled 5 year old while Edith has been forced to grow up. The bottom line for me is not Edith vs. Mary but that it undermines a character that has otherwise been very strongly conceived and written. The fact that she is at all sympathetic is a testament to the writing and, especially, Michelle Dockery (I cannot imagine anyone else pulling this off) but it's maddening to see her and the character wasted on such juvenile nonsense. I loved it when Mary and Edith teamed up to track down Sybil and convince her to return home. They don't need to be best friends but 30 year olds acting like children isn't pleasant - not in real life and not on TV. It's time for their relationship to evolve.

[Andorra]

My interpretation of what we see between Edith and Mary is, that they both love to quarrel with each other and it is not that one of them is "better", but that Mary most of the time gets the upper hand, because she is wittier and sharper than Edith, which is yet another strike of bad luck for Edith and of course unfair, but it is how it works in real life.

 

But Mary's bad behaviour towards Edith reflects bad on her. Viewers don't like it and call her out for it, except some very ardent Mary fans, who always bring out the letter to the Turkish ambassy every time Mary says something nasty to Edith. It is not as if Julian Fellows wants us to applaud Mary for her behaviour, he wants us to feel bad for Edith in those moments. I like it that Mary is not flawless and great, but that she has very bad sides and that Fellows shows them to us.

 

I don't think Edith is an angel though. She tries her best to make barbs at Mary, too. I didn't see her remark about Gillingham as innocent, neither did I see her remark about "Mr. Blake is not under Mary's spell" as innocent. I do think she wants to hurt, too, but she is not as able to do so as is Mary and most of the time she gets hurt in return.

 

This discussion has been held as long as the series goes on and it will never be resolved. Some people hate Mary, some hate Edith. I don't see why we have to love one of the sisters and hate the other. They're both good and bad. It is unfortunate for Edith that Mary seems to be the centre of attention most of the time and she can do what she wants and still remains in the shadow. That is not Mary's fault though, nor is it Mary's fault that Edith is unlucky.

 

I really like them both equally. I hate Mary when she is nasty out of nowhere and without reason, but I grimace as well when Edith glows over one of Mary's fails. I like it when Mary is lovely (and she can be when she wants to) and I like it when Edith stands up and soldiers on no matter what happens to her.

 

But most of all, I like the rare moments when we see the sisters in harmony. They're rare but the rarity makes them even sweeter. For example the first scene of the series 4 finale, when Mary, Edith and Tom go to see the pigs is a really sweet scene, because the three of them are all together and not fighting for a change. Or in the CS when Edith says that she envies people who are able to get their emotions out freely and Mary replies thoughtful and without animosity. Those moments are my favourite moments between them.

[Cameltoes]

While I am more sympathetic towards Edith, I don't dislike Mary at all. I think she's a wonderful character. My favorite moments between the sisters are also the ones when they are getting along or showing some solidarity. There was a scene after Sybil's death of the two walking together. Anna found them to tell them about Bates being freed. We never got to see the conversation the sisters were having. That kind of thing bothers me more than anything. Their relationship is not all rivalry and petty squabbling but we rarely get to see the positive side of their relationship. It's a shame that the showrunners think that the nasty side is more appealing. If they weren't sisters, I could get behind it more.

[ZoloftBlob]

Can someone help me out with something? I was rewatching season one today, and I have a question because I sense there's some British thing that I am missing here.

 

So Matthew asks Mary to marry him and she hems and haws because her mother might have a boy and eliminate Matthew as an heir. I understand that.

 

But.... doesn't that mean that the estate would have fallen to the baby boy and Mary would still lose her home/position? If Cora had given birth to a live boy, Mary loses everything. She's already considered tainted and there was no one waiting in the wings. If the child had actually been born, wasn't Mary's position infinitely worse as far as marriage goes? Or does her status as the earl's give her some marriage value that makes up for her scanty sounding dowry?

 

What I am not seeing is where, if she has a brother to inherit, that her position isn't essentially done anyway?

[Andorra]

Her position is done anyway, but she isn't sure if she's able to live the life of "a solicitor's wife". Matthew is only middle class as soon as he has lost the prospect of the earldom.

 

It doesn't change her status on the marriage marcet. She will get a generous sum as dowry and she's the daughter of an Earl. So she IS a good catch, brother or not.

 

Since she's also very young when the series starts, she can expect to find a good match someday. So she's torn between the choice of a love-marriage with a mere solicitor or a marriage of convenience with an aristocrat. JF says Mary is ambitious. She wants a position of power and influence in society and the only way for a woman of her class is to get that position by marriage. In marrying Matthew for love and without his prospect of being the heir, she would give that all up.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Andorra

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, but wasn't she also suspect as damaged goods at that point? I mean she was suspected of sleeping with Pamuk and the parents had tried to foist her off on Strallan. And the Duke of Crowborough didn't seem impressed with her dowry.

 

It just, in retrospect, seems odd that she wasn't more appalled at the idea that what power she had in the family was about to be upset by the potential baby brother.

[Andorra]

 

Well, but wasn't she also suspect as damaged goods at that point? I mean she was suspected of sleeping with Pamuk and the parents had tried to foist her off on Strallan. And the Duke of Crowborough didn't seem impressed with her dowry.

 

She wasn't damaged good yet, just in danger of becoming so if it ever got out that she slept with Pamuk. That was the reason Cora and Violet wanted to marry her off as fast as they could. There were whispers in society, but noone would have dared to point at her openly.

 

Her position in the family didn't change through Cora's pregnancy. She wasn't about to inherit anyway. She would have gotten exact the same dowry with or without a brother. Only her marriage prospects changed if Matthew was going to be lose the earldom to her brother. She would have been a solicitor's wife then and nothing more.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Andorra

[saki]

Unlike most viewers, I was never that bought into Mary and Matthew and the big reason for that was that Mary basically came out and said that she did not love him enough to marry him if he was "only" going to be a solicitor.  I feel like the show never really explained why Matthew was ok with that.  Mary never apologises to him for it and he never explains why he is suddenly ok with it.

 

I feel like the show thought it had shown us Mary growing up during the war but, actually, all it showed was Sybil, Edith and Isobel doing a lot and Mary (and to some extent Cora) only being concerned with how the war had inconvenienced them.  Literally the only thing that Mary does at all for the 'war effort' is sing at that party and she had to be talked into that. I never loved the character but the WW1 season put the seal on my dislike.

[vesperholly]

Unfortunately all DVDs are the UK version. It is good in the first two series, because there PBS shortened the episodes, but it is bad in all series after that, because then PBS added scenes to each episode and those additional scenes are not on the DVD. Not even in the extras! If you haven't watched them on PBS directly, the scenes are lost.

 

Series 3 was also shown in a different version in Germany. It had even more scenes than the PBS version and it is a pity those were lost. There was a scene of Tom and Sybil in Ireland and other scenes I really missed in the UK version, but ufortunately they're lost and can't be bought anywhere.

 

I hope they will bring out a blue ray box after the show has finished and add all the scenes!

Hold the phone - I didn't know PBS ADDED scenes! I thought I was so smart getting the original UK broadcasts.

 

Here's a link I found that has links to videos: http://dawntonabbey.tumblr.com/post/68335236975/downton-abbey-deleted-scenes-masterpost

[Andorra]

Hold the phone - I didn't know PBS ADDED scenes! I thought I was so smart getting the original UK broadcasts.

 

Here's a link I found that has links to videos: http://dawntonabbey.tumblr.com/post/68335236975/downton-abbey-deleted-scenes-masterpost

 

Yes, these are the added scenes. In series 1 and 2 Downton's episodes had different lengths than they have since series 3. So in series 1 and 2 the episodes on PBS were shortened versions of the UK episodes. Since series 3 they ADD scenes instead. Not to all episodes, but to a few.

PBS shows the first 2 episodes of the UK as one long two hour episode without altering.

Episodes 3,4,5 and 6 have added scenes as far as I remember.

Episode 7 and 8 are again showed as one episode without altering.

Episode 9 (The Christmas Special in the UK) is one episode without altering.

 

There're also some scenes that have been aired neither in the UK or the US, but in Germany. Unfortunately all shows get dubbed in Germany, so they're not available in the English language. There're several scenes with Tom or Tom/Sybil which is especially sad for the Tom/Sybil fans, who never got to see them. One of the scenes is in Ireland for example, where Tom and Sybil talk about having no money to go to Mary's wedding. It's a lovely scene. Also there is a lovely scene of Cora and Tom in the nursery and Cora is calling Sybbie "Sybbie" for the first time. Tom is surprised and says "Sybbie? Not Sybil?" and Cora smiles and says. "Yes. The same, but not the same.".

I hope we will get a "Deluxe" box once the show is over where all those scenes that are now missing on the DVDs will be included!

Edited October 15, 2014 by Andorra

[Camera One]

I was reading an interview with Julian Fellowes.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/downton-abbey-creator-julian-fellowes-760929

 

Question: Were there any characters you were particularly excited to write for this time around?

 

Answer: No, I don't think I would say that......  "But after that, I see them all as my babies, really. I mean, I always do search to check that they're all in an episode enough, and about every two or three episodes they all get a decent story."

 

For all his flaws, I do think JF does a decent job of doing this with most of the characters.  With most shows that have a large cast, quite a few of the supporting characters are usually standing around in the background half the time, but I feel on "Downton", I get to see a bit of everyone.  Now, whether the material they're given is worthwhile is a different story, but I appreciate that every few episodes, he does rotate to allow characters a bit more screentime.

[Eolivet]

Episodes 3,4,5 and 6 have added scenes as far as I remember.

 

I don't think 3x06 has added scenes -- I remember quite clearly because it seemed like 3x03-3x05 was setting up tension between Matthew and Mary, and in 3x06 (after Dan Stevens gave his notice), it had all disappeared. When watching it on PBS, I felt like you could see how Fellowes (or how he directed his editors) was laying the groundwork for more marriage tension that never came to fruition. Once he had to change course and write a completely different ending to season 3, that groundwork was no longer necessary.

 

Nowhere is that more obvious than the last solo Mary and Matthew scene of 3x05 (Mary getting extremely irritated at Matthew for bringing Murray in the day after Sybil died) and the first one in 3x06 (pledges of eternal love: "I'll love you until the last breath leaves my body.") No more tension, no more marital discord -- with a slight veering off into "Oh no, I can't have children -- wait, now I can!" -- just agreement and happiness and lovey-dovey stuff until Fellowes ditches Matthew.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Eolivet

[Andorra]

I had added scenes but none between Mary or Matthew. A few scenes are longer than in the UK version. For example the breakfast scene in the PBS version had Tom entering the breakfast room (looking like hell), Edith asking him, if he got a some sleep. He answered "Yes, some" and Carson handed him a plate. Obviously a gesture of "peace", because Tom looked surpised and then nodded.

 

Also the scene where Tom and Matthew walk to the old farm is longer. Tom says that his father in law doesn't know why there is "a chauffeur sitting at his table". This line wasn't in the UK version either.

 

 

I don't think 3x06 has added scenes -- I remember quite clearly because it seemed like 3x03-3x05 was setting up tension between Matthew and Mary, and in 3x06 (after Dan Stevens gave his notice), it had all disappeared.

 

Julian Fellows explains that in his scriptbook notes btw. He says that he only knew Dan Stevens was leaving, when he had already finished Episode 1-5. So his initial plan of a difficult first year for Mary and Matthew had to go, because he then knew he had to kill Matthew in the CS and that's the reason there was a rather aprubt change to complete happiness between episode 5 and 6.

[Avaleigh]

Which is actually an example of a really horrible double standard. If Thomas had hopped into Daisy's bed unasked and fondled her, he'd be called a rapist according to our current standards, even if Daisy flirted with him prior. Even in 1922, while Daisy would have also been deemed a slut, he'd still be considered to have committed sexual assault. But when its Thomas making sexual advances on an unwilling man - and this would be the second time we know of, because he did something similar and unwanted to Pamuk, Jimmy protesting is Jimmy "being a girl's blouse" over it. Yes, Thomas *almost* lost his job over it but in the end he didn't.

 

 

I completely agree about the double standard. I was just saying that I don't think that Tom or Jimmy would have a modern view about what they'd been put through. 

 

What really gets me though is that Thomas has been a party to not one but two incidents where a person is barging into a person's bedroom without an invitation. Thomas should have been fired for leading Pamuk into Mary's room. Thomas should have been fired for hitting on Pamuk. Thomas should have been fired for going into Jimmy's room and kissing him. It's unbelievable all of the things that Thomas has been able to get away with over the years and that's not counting his horrible treatment of people like Bates, Anna, Daisy, Alfred,

Diana Clarke,

etc. Yet somehow Thomas is given boatloads of sympathy whenever lip service is paid to his struggles with repressing his sexuality. I'd feel a lot more sympathy for him if he didn't continue to prove what a low character he has season after season.

 

Am I wrong in thinking that it was Bates who made the comment about Jimmy being "a girl's blouse" about it all?

[ZoloftBlob]

Yes it was Bates who called James a girl's blouse over Thomas attempting to sexually assault him.

 

[HoodlumSheep]

My brother's girlfriend is watching the series all the way through for the first time, and my mom is rewatching it with her. I've been watching every other one with them. We recently watched the episode where the Farmer guy is saved from Dropsy. I now realize we've been discussing him, thinking him to be the same farmer as the one who is helping out Edith currently. Farmer Drake, Farmer Drewe (or however you spell it); lots of farmers whose names start with "D". I think their wives look similar. Or maybe we still have them confused, and that was Farmer Drewe? I don't know. The first season does seem to have a lot of characters, and it's hard to keep track of them all.

Rewatching season 1 makes me miss Evelyn Napier. Wish he was in Downton more. He seems like a genuinely nice guy. I don't care if a lot of people seem to find him bland.

Anyways, I actually miss the witchy lady's maid too. I miss her and Thomas scheming. Everyone seems so young and innocent (or as innocent as you can get). Little do they know what will happen in the upcoming 10 years of their lives...

[jadecorleone]

On a completly shallow note, the scene of Branson getting physical with his shirt slighlty open ....very unlady like thoughts here....Yes I am shallow

[Kohola3]

JF seems to have some sort of issue with names:
• The “TB”s - Tom Branson, Thomas Barrow
• The “E” girls:  Edith, Edna, Ethel
• The “RC”s - Richard Carlisle, Richard Clarkson
• The Flower Girls:  Rose, Daisy, and (unfortunately) Marigold
Surely there were enough historical names out there to avoid using repeats or sound alikes.

[Avaleigh]

The first name of Mrs Hughes is Elsie.

[Kohola3]

The first name of Mrs Hughes is Elsie.

 

Great, add her to the "E" list.

 

At least Mrs. Hughes is memorable.  Edna and Ethel were interchangeable!

[Avaleigh]

Sarah O'Brien and Sarah Bunting.

[Kohola3]

Old JF couldn't consult a website (http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/decades/names1920s.html) for a variety?  Although I will give him credit for coming up with Evelyn. 

[Avaleigh]

Anthony Strallan, Anthony Gillingham

Reginald Crawley, Reginald Swire

Charles Carson, Charles Blake

James "Jimmy" Kent, James Crawley, James MacClare

[Mrsjumbo]

My brother's girlfriend is watching the series all the way through for the first time, and my mom is rewatching it with her. I've been watching every other one with them. We recently watched the episode where the Farmer guy is saved from Dropsy. I now realize we've been discussing him, thinking him to be the same farmer as the one who is helping out Edith currently. Farmer Drake, Farmer Drewe (or however you spell it); lots of farmers whose names start with "D". I think their wives look similar. Or maybe we still have them confused, and that was Farmer Drewe? I don't know. The first season does seem to have a lot of characters, and it's hard to keep track of them all.

Rewatching season 1 makes me miss Evelyn Napier. Wish he was in Downton more. He seems like a genuinely nice guy. I don't care if a lot of people seem to find him bland.

Anyways, I actually miss the witchy lady's maid too. I miss her and Thomas scheming. Everyone seems so young and innocent (or as innocent as you can get). Little do they know what will happen in the upcoming 10 years of their lives...

Oh, I agree about Napier. I would have picked him!

[amensisterfriend]

I know a lot of people feel S3 is when the series spiraled into melodrama that was both soapier and grimmer, and I don't think I disagree, but those first few episodes of S3 may actually be my favorites of the whole series. 

 

The title of this thread reminded me that I've never seen Upstairs Downstairs, so I started devouring it last night. I'm shocked by how much I already love it---more than I love DA, for reasons I can't quite articulate. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I think it was more towards the tail end of season 3 when I wasn't enjoying it as much, mainly because the extremely grating love quadrangle or whatever it was that was happening downstairs (that was season 3, right?).

Just rewatched episodes 1/2 of season 2 again. My mom and brother's girlfriend are convinced Farmer Drake (the one Edith kissed) is the one currently taking care of Marigold. I keep trying to tell them no, that's Farmer Drewe (add that to the list of similar names).

Lavinia is still the sweetheart I remember her to be. And dare I say it? I miss Sir Richard Carlisle! Not as a love interest, but just as a character. He's pretty awesome, even if he's kind of a jerk. I could listen to Ian Glen's voice all day.

Do we have a scale of Evilness for this show? Mr. Bate's wife would be at the top (along with Mr. Green)! I forgot how evil she was.

I also had forgotten about the Moseley/war-thing. I can't find the heart to blame him. And for the record, I don't really hold it too much against Thomas either. Granted it reflects poorly on both their characters...

Moseley probably would have bit the dust the moment he stepped on the battlefield. Also, what was the age cut off for the war? Moseley states he's 51/52 in the new season. The second episode was 1917, so it's been 6/7 years which puts him 43-45 during that time. Wouldn't he have been on the verge of being too old anyways? Also, were they drafting at that point, seeing how William sounded like he signed up for it, rather than being drafted?

I had forgotten Mr. Moseley had a crush on Anna. Don't worry Moseley! You just have to wait a few seasons until Baxter arrives!

Lastly, poor Mr. Lang (that was his name, right?). That's also the nicest we've ever seen O'brion.

Edited January 25, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[amensisterfriend]

Random thoughts from my binge watch:

 

Carson and Hughes are probably my two very favorite characters on the entire show. I love them to a ridiculous degree! 

 

The actor who plays Thomas is absolutely phenomenal IMO. There's a lot of solid acting on this show, but for some reason the guy who plays Thomas really leaps out at me as exceptional. The scene of him sobbing outside after Jimmy convinced Carson to send him away without a reference touched me like few other scenes of the series---it's amazing when someone who's generally such a villainous sleaze can elicit such sympathy from me. 

 

I absolutely loved the "older" gentleman who left Edith at the altar...and not because he left Edith at the altar :) I liked Michael Gregson as well, actually. It's funny that Edith's "significant others" are among the only male characters who I find endearing. 

 

My affection for Anna decreased a lot as the series wore on, though I can't quite explain why. I like Bates when we get to see his bitter badass side rather than when he's a bland semi-martyr. 

 

I'm not sure I ever loved Matthew (who I actually never thought was a really well-defined character), but I do like that his presence softened Mary a bit while still leaving her quintessential Mary-ness intact. I totally get why many dislike Mary and often find it hard to care about her myself, but she's one of the few characters I can't imagine the series without. 

 

I know Cora's supposed to be American, but I feel like the actress sounds vaguely Irish or...something. I'm American, and her accent and inflections just always sound really off to me. 

 

Are we supposed to like Tony and root for he and Mary to get together? (I'm not asking rhetorically---I honestly don't know what we're supposed to make of him/them or whether we're supposed to feel ambivalent about them. Sadly, I'm just kind of indifferent!) I find them depressingly devoid of chemistry. 

 

If the actress who plays Sybil wanted to leave the show, I wish she and Tom had just run away again rather than killing her off. I was never especially attached to either Sybil or Tom, but I prefer the show when it sticks to powerfully repressed angst and quiet, subtle joy rather than such overwrought tragedy and Big Drama, as unrealistic as I know that may be. 

[Tetraneutron]

But if Sybil and Tom had run away together the show wouldn't have had Tom. And with no Matthew that leaves just Mary and Edith as the young people.

 

Does anyone know where I can find the deleted scenes? The first two series' scenes are on youtube but that's it.