S02.E04: Woe's Hollow

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, sadie said:

I feel I am being “Lost”ed and I don’t like it.

i watched After The Episode and the one show runner basically said “I knew I wanted to stick them out in the wilderness cuz I thought it would be cool”. Which basically said to me on some level they are just making it up as they go. Lost loved just doing “cool” stuff like polar bears and smoke monsters but in the end there was nothing explained other than, you know, purgatory.

As someone who quickly tired of Lost because of the random shit like the polar bear and smoke monster, I find these comparisons pretty baffling. It's not random at all for Lumon to send their restive MDR team on a carefully controlled outdoor adventure that seemingly rewards them with a few days of freedom while actually making the outside world seem dangerous and undesirable and reinforcing Kierian dogma with spooky morality plays. Lumon's intentions could hardly be more straightforward.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

Maybe i'm naive, but I actually think Stiller and co. have a plan and are executing it beautifully.  Turturro was just soooo good this episode.  He's given several of my favorite line readings of the show, but the absolute venom when he yells "YES, DO IT SETH!" was just marvelous.  

Yes. I said at one point this opens up a lot of stories and I look forward to Tuturro’s outie playing his part. Irving, so far, is my favorite. 

[ombre]

Debtors prison. That's it. Maybe in combination with, like, lay-away purchasing or buy-now-pay-later schemes. 

There's been a thing niggling at the edge of my brain that was/is analogous to severance. And that's it. Debtors prison. I've mentioned elsewhere that irl I spend a fair amount of time working with American slave narratives. My reading at the moment is on the strange, squishy line between freedom and slavery in the areas just south of the Mason-Dixon line. Areas where it was relatively easy to run to free states and thus freedom/slavery was even more so a matter of negotiation.* Right now I'm in a bit about how civic improvements created annual taxation that could force people in tight financial situations to have to rely on "public assistance." for many, this meant forced labor in a penitentiary. Debtors prison. A kind of term slavery. 

This is, in effect, what lumon allows people. They can enslave their own self for a portion of the day and they don't have to know what happens to themselves. They get a gift cert to the company watering hole if their body is injured, etc. And in between the company can do... Pretty much whatever it wants as long as they don't know about it. 

I think this is why I'm not super invested in questions of why/how they got folks into their different spots in the park. The idea is to show authoritarian control over their bodies, their existence. When you're trapped in a small box, anything that happens outside that box feels like magic. So on the one hand, we saw the cliff behind Mark and there wasn't a tv/vcr there. And then there was. And it's absolue lately possible to look at that and go wtf! They can't override physics! But it's also possible to take it as proof of the innies' blinkered understanding of the world. Their forced narrow perspective. "Tallest waterfall in the planet" kind of perspective. 

***

Rewatched this ep over the weekend. The thing is can't stop thinking about is how milcheck and so seamlessly taken over the strategies and even the mannerisms of Cobel. The demands of the overseer position and the power that it affords are truly a heady, destructive combination. It's like the masks that keep popping up (waffle party dancers, the twins in this ep). You put on the mask and you become the mask. 

 

* I'm not great at remembering actors' names, so I often don't look them up. Had a bit of a shock realizing that the actor playing milcheck has a name that is from the region that I study. Ie, an area that experienced exactly this kind of intensely negotiated slavery/freedom. I am aware that my brain, wrt this show, can have a bit of "to a hammer everything is a nail"ism. I love reading other people's perspectives on the show because I find it so hard to have thoughts on the show that aren't rooted in decades of studying American slavery. But this little detail - the name "tillman" popping up in the credits, has really burrowed deep and made it just that much harder to separate the show from real life. 

Edited February 10 by ombre

[peachmangosteen]

19 hours ago, sadie said:

Lost loved just doing “cool” stuff like polar bears and smoke monsters but in the end there was nothing explained other than, you know, purgatory.

But it wasn't purgatory. That's a strange, wide spread misconception.

10 hours ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

Turturro was just soooo good this episode.  He's given several of my favorite line readings of the show, but the absolute venom when he yells "YES, DO IT SETH!" was just marvelous.  

This. I hope he gets an Emmy nom.

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Though, I’m not sure how the heck he made the leap that she’s an Eagon aside from him making the assumption that ONLY an Eagon would be allowed to reintegrate, mentioning who would have that power.

Also, in Irv's dream, the letters on the computer spelled out Eagan.

[Kirbyrun]

7 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Also, in Irv's dream, the letters on the computer spelled out Eagan.

This reminds me that the innies have never slept or dreamed before. (Irv’s micronap notwithstanding.) So their unconscious minds are really working overtime here and throwing a lot of info their way! I wonder what Mark and Dylan dreamed about…

[ombre]

Just now, Kirbyrun said:

This reminds me that the innies have never slept or dreamed before. (Irv’s micronap notwithstanding.) So their unconscious minds are really working overtime here and throwing a lot of info their way! I wonder what Mark and Dylan dreamed about…

I have often wondered if outie Irving intentionally burns the candle at both ends to see what his subconscious carries over the boundary. 

 

I am too tired to concentrate well on work this morning and all my reading about debt peonage just keeps turning back to thoughts on severance. Where my brain keeps going is here:

I wonder how typical/atypical the mdr team is within lumon. Of our four refiners, only one is there for the reasons that we usually think make people go to work each day: Dylan is there for his paycheck. It's the only one (we have been told) that he can get. Everyone else is there for Reasons. Mark is there to avoid grief. Helly is there for propaganda. And Irving is there as a covert op. Oh, wait, and the person who left just before we started was the first person to reintegrate,whichbimplies some big thoughts/feels in the outside world. If that's a typical combo for lumon, man, that must be one roiling outside world! 

It's possible that this *isn't* a typical team, of course. Cobel is obsessed with Mark's project,and maybe that is why helly was assigned to this team. Maybe petey was carefilly targeted for recruitment by the whole mind collective (if I'm remembering their name correctly). Maybe Irving, too, was carefully recruited by outside operatives. 

[AheadofStraight]

Fun tidbit from the official podcast - all of the scenery was real, no CGI. Even Irv's dream. There was a lot of bad weather and that day was particularly foggy so they moved the filming of the dream to capture that weather. No effects needed.

It also sounded really exhausting. They had to hike 45+ min to some of the spots that couldn't be reached with vehicles. Adam Scott discussed wearing those spike clamp-ons and that they were often drenched and exhausted when they got where they needed to go. 

[JenE4]

13 hours ago, lovett1979 said:

After Burt is "retired" in Season 1, Irv comes back to MDR and says "let's burn it all down" (or something to that effect) and that's when the OTC plan starts to come together. So I don't think Irv is the same true believer he was at the beginning of the series.

Yeah, I agree that Irv and Dylan were totally on board with the “burn it all down” plan in episode 1, but over the course of the few episodes of this season, they both seemed to fall back in line with their original Innie thinking. Maybe that was the point of this retreat to give their Innies two full days of “life” in a row that their original “Innyhood” really amped up again. Dylan got really excited for and motivated by the treats—Kier marshmallows, outside with no ceilings! Helly got super cynical—even more than usual. Mark’s romantic feelings for Helly overtook his feelings for Gemma. And Irv went right back to revering Kier and being fascinated by the origin stories. If he still was in the anti-Lumon, burn it all down frame of mind, why would he have been screaming and screaming for Mr Milcheck? He really seemed to believe he was doing the right thing by turning in this “infiltrator” to the powers that be at Lumon—but while also believing that Helly is part of the lineage of Kier. In addition to being stung upon the mention of Burt, what also made Irv paranoid is that Helly was making fun of  the fundamental “truths” about Lumon, so if he was still in the “burn it down” frame of mind, wouldn’t he also think it was funny and also be glad that they have a reintegrated person on the inside  as a partner? Instead, that realization made him angry enough to kill. He also thought Mr Milcheck would be proud of him for protecting Lumon from this infiltrator, or he wouldn’t have been calling for Mr Milcheck for help against Helly. But since Helena is an Eagon, Mr Milcheck has to protect her, despite her mocking her own lineage, and Irv gets banished from the severed floor, even though he was the one worshipping Kier. So it seems like the lineage of Kier is more important than the origin stories of Kier, hence Dieter being turned into a tree for “spilling his lineage.” Helly’s like the “Prince Harry” of the Eagons, I guess, doesn’t want any part of this pomp and circumstance—count me out of this “royal family.”

Edited February 10 by JenE4

[iMonrey]

22 hours ago, sadie said:

i watched After The Episode and the one show runner basically said “I knew I wanted to stick them out in the wilderness cuz I thought it would be cool”. Which basically said to me on some level they are just making it up as they go. Lost loved just doing “cool” stuff like polar bears and smoke monsters but in the end there was nothing explained other than, you know, purgatory.

I'll circle back to something I posted earlier: when they all reached the top of the cliff, there was a TV stand and a video of Milchick explaining what they're supposed to do. But then, Milchick himself shows up in person. So why have a video of him on TV if he's there to explain in person? Oh, of course . . . because it's just odd and quirky. No other reason.

17 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Conversely, this was Helena fully reintegrated the entire time.

There's a distinction (thus far) between "reintegration" and the switching they do between Innie and Outie. Helena is not "reintegrated." She is simply the Outie this whole time. Once Milchick ordered the "Glasgow block" turned off, she switched to Innie Helly. And didn't know what was going on. 

A "reintegrated" person, like Pete, is aware of both the Innie and the Outie. 

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's not random at all for Lumon to send their restive MDR team on a carefully controlled outdoor adventure

Carefully controlled?? Helena was almost killed. They were on their own for most of the time and were free to wander off, have sex, etc. As noted above, the showrunner essentially admitted they wrote this episode just because they thought it would look cool. 

[JenE4]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'll circle back to something I posted earlier: when they all reached the top of the cliff, there was a TV stand and a video of Milchick explaining what they're supposed to do. But then, Milchick himself shows up in person. So why have a video of him on TV if he's there to explain in person? Oh, of course . . . because it's just odd and quirky. No other reason.

There's a distinction (thus far) between "reintegration" and the switching they do between Innie and Outie. Helena is not "reintegrated." She is simply the Outie this whole time. Once Milchick ordered the "Glasgow block" turned off, she switched to Innie Helly. And didn't know what was going on. 

A "reintegrated" person, like Pete, is aware of both the Innie and the Outie. 

Carefully controlled?? Helena was almost killed. They were on their own for most of the time and were free to wander off, have sex, etc. As noted above, the showrunner essentially admitted they wrote this episode just because they thought it would look cool. 

I took the Glasgow block as removing Irv from Severance, but I see you understood it to be Helena switching. Though, I’m not sure how Helly being an Innie again would make Irv stop drowning her—though maybe to keep Helena from suffering? Actually, she told Seth to do it, so I’m going to assume to keep herself from suffering the feeling of drowning, even though it wouldn’t technically do anything to save her. Changing Irv to his Outie would make more sense, because he would be like, what the heck and stop trying to drown this stranger. {ETA: nevermind. I just read an article that clarified that Irv demanded Helly be released. Helena said do it, Seth: Irv repeated, do it, Seth, but it was Irv’s idea first.} But, now I’m getting confused in new areas, lol. Let me get back to my original confusion… I understand that Helena learned to think what Helly thought by watching the videos, rather than reintegrating innie and outie. However, that just makes me double down on my original question even more if this is ONLY Helena and no part of Helly: Why is she smack talking her own family/company so much? It’s one thing to “play along” with the revolt in a way that would still have the best interests of the company at heart. But why is she taking a sledgehammer to everything Lumon and her family supposedly want these people to believe?

Edited February 10 by JenE4

[ombre]

10 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

I just took the Glasgow block as removing Irv from Severance, but I see you understood it to be Helena switching. I understand that Helena learned to think what Helly thought by watching the videos, rather than reintegrating innie and outie. However, that just makes me double down on my original question even more if this is ONLY Helena and no part of Helly: Why is she smack talking her own family/company so much? It’s one thing to “play along” with the revolt in a way that would still have the best interests of the company at heart. But why is she taking a sledgehammer to everything Lumon and her family supposedly want these people to believe?

In the 19th century, blackface was a tool by which white performers (generally white men with marginal access to prosperity themselves) expressed displeasure with those at the top of the social hierarchy by putting on the mask of blackness to let the make subversive statements (along with other statements, which aren't pertinent to this analogy). Helena isn't happy in her life ("moppet!") and sees helly as free of those constraints and is enjoying using helly's mouth to say things she, helena, cannot say. She sees in helly a freedom that she is jealous of and wants for herself.  So when she becomes helly she acts out what she thinks that freedom allows. But because she isn't helly, doesn't share her desires, her agenda, the experience of having her world limited like the innies do, she does a poor imitation. 

I don't think we've ever heard any of the innies discuss *anything* sexual. That scene at the campfire was like when you've got a group of pre-pubescent ten-year-olds and one young, immature, attention-hungry teen. You've planned an activity for 10-year-Olds, but the teenager makes crude jokes and makes the planned activity seem cringe. Helly might have undermined the activity, but probably not in that way, since the scope of the innies' mental world doesn't seem to include *such* sexual thoughts. And milcheck can't do anything to her because she's the boss's daughter. But he also can't let it go because it *is* disruptive. And he's mad that he's in this state of frustrating impotence when he's theoretically been given a promotion (and I think thought he'd do a better job than Cobel). Caught between rock and hard place, he explodes at all of them. Just like Cobel. Because being middle management/the hired overseer sucks. 

 

[Kirbyrun]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

when they all reached the top of the cliff, there was a TV stand and a video of Milchick explaining what they're supposed to do. But then, Milchick himself shows up in person. So why have a video of him on TV if he's there to explain in person? Oh, of course . . . because it's just odd and quirky. No other reason.

The innies are accustomed to receiving information via TV. And doing it this way means they can't rebel, ask questions, or shift the conversation. They are given instructions and have no choice but to obey.

Milchick shows up in person MUCH later, after they're freezing and half-starved, and thus grateful enough for his presence and succor to accept whatever he says and follow his directions.

[lovett1979]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'll circle back to something I posted earlier: when they all reached the top of the cliff, there was a TV stand and a video of Milchick explaining what they're supposed to do. But then, Milchick himself shows up in person. So why have a video of him on TV if he's there to explain in person? Oh, of course . . . because it's just odd and quirky. No other reason.

I don't think it's just to be odd and quirky. Having the video made the MDR 4 (and the audience) think/feel that they were out there all alone. Knowing from the beginning that Milchick was actually there as well would have felt different/safer. 

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'll circle back to something I posted earlier: when they all reached the top of the cliff, there was a TV stand and a video of Milchick explaining what they're supposed to do. But then, Milchick himself shows up in person. So why have a video of him on TV if he's there to explain in person? Oh, of course . . . because it's just odd and quirky. No other reason.

You can't think of an in-story reason why Lumon would want the innies to initially feel alone and isolated, with no authority figures around to protect and guide them, to undergo a terrifying and mystifying journey, and to then be reunited with a smiling Mr. Milchick in spotless white furs welcoming them back into the loving arms of the company?

Quote

Carefully controlled?? Helena was almost killed. They were on their own for most of the time and were free to wander off, have sex, etc.

The environment was carefully controlled. Obviously they didn't think one of the innies would threaten to murder his coworker, any more than they thought having a paper cutter on the Severed Floor would result in Helly threatening to cut her own fingers off. But I don't think the employees were in any real danger of dying from environmental factors; Lumon let them wander off and have sex and sleep out in the cold as part of the illusion of danger and freedom, but I don't think that, for instance, Irving was really at risk of freezing to death or they would've intervened.

Quote

As noted above, the showrunner essentially admitted they wrote this episode just because they thought it would look cool.

I don't find this particular gotcha at all compelling. Saying "We wanted to do X" does not in any way imply ". . . so therefore we chose to do it without any regard for story logic or relevance."

And maybe I would feel differently if this episode seemed especially weak to me, but as I've mentioned, I don't see any of the lapses that some folks here are claiming. And it would be pretty silly for me to say, essentially, "Well, I thought the wilderness setting made narrative sense and had interesting thematic resonance, but the writers said they did it because it was cool, so I must be wrong about that." I'm an old-school death-of-the-author literary critic; the text is its own freestanding source of meaning, and creator commentary holds very little sway.

I should also note that outside our little corner of the internet, this episode is one of the most highly regarded in the history of the show. On IMDb, it's currently the second-highest rated episode of the entire series, after the S1 finale. So I don't feel like I'm out on a limb in my defense of its quality.

Edited February 10 by Dev F

[Kirbyrun]

26 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Saying "We wanted to do X" does not in any way imply ". . . so therefore we chose to do it without any regard for story logic or relevance."

Yes! Thank you for putting into words what I was thinking, but couldn't frame at the moment.

Art is about choices. Some of those choices may be or seem frivolous, but depending on where they lead, they can be just as compelling as the ones that are plotted out meticulously.

I can't begin to count the times I've thought, "Let's see where this takes me..." only to have that moment of whim turn out to be an important fulcrum in the story!

 

ETA: Also, it's perilous at best to hold the showrunners to the specifics of their comments. Depending on the context, it could be something like, "I thought this would be fun," and then he didn't explain WHY it would be fun, or what that fun would mean for the story. This is one reason why I dislike behind-the-scenes commentary while a show is running -- it's too easy to get caught up in parsing the words and miss the meaning/potential. 

Edited February 10 by Kirbyrun

[peachmangosteen]

Maybe the writer literally did just think it would be 'cool' to film in a forest. The vibes, scenery, etc. are important to writers/viewers, too. But yea that also doesn't mean they didn't then go OK let's figure out how to make this cool location idea we had fit into the story we're trying to tell.

[Ilovepie]

I thought this episode was awesome! I do believe that much like the goat room, this experience existed somewhere inside Lumon, perhaps the "team building" area on Petey's map. That is the only explanation that makes sense to have a computer and their holograms "helping" them navigate. And how creepy was bent neck lady Helly? Also, the fact that the "Glasgow Block" was done via walkie talkie implies he was not miles out in the wilderness. 

Britt Lower absolutely gave me chills in that tent scene with her and Irving. The way her expression shifted was stone cold. Loved it, loved both of them in that moment. 

One of the social media people I listen to that analyzes this show has said Innie color = blue, outie color = red, and boy was that true here! The whole snowscape was cold and grey/blue, but that sex scene with Helena and Mark was literally glowing red! Was that Innie Mark or Outie Mark? Both? And if it was Innie Mark, is this rape? Based on the weird Kier babies crawling in the intro, I have a feeling there will be a pregnancy. 

John Turturro was amazing this episode. He hasn't trusted "Helly" since the night gardener comment, but I have been questioning if they know "all" of the Eagans. I mean, there is the perpetuity wing with the Eagans on display - how did they not know who Helly was from the get-go? I know she doesn't have her own wax figure yet, but she is high up in the organization and the heir apparent to the current Eagan CEO. Or did they just not put it together until this moment? Irv knew the most about the family, and until he turned was a true believer, so it does make sense that he would be the one to figure it out.

There have been many freaky deaky shows in the years since Lost, and some have been great, and some not so great. So far, for me, this is great. I am invested in all of these characters and the idea of it is intriguing. I am fine with the execution so far because I am hoping since it's the era of streaming that there was a plan from the beginning. There aren't so many episodes of just filler like old school network tv. Hang In There! (See what I did there? 😋)

On a side note - has anyone seen the Zip Recruiter ads featuring Lumon with the voice over by Milkshake? Hilarious!

[AstridM]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Helena is not "reintegrated." She is simply the Outie this whole time. Once Milchick ordered the "Glasgow block" turned off, she switched to Innie Helly. And didn't know what was going on. 

And why did there need to be any sort of “block” on Helena at all? She could’ve just shown up to the wilderness retreat as Helena, no need for anything to be turned on or off. 

[peachmangosteen]

I guess the 'Glasgow block' is in relation to Outies entering the Severence floor. They had to turn it off so that Helena would switch to Helly.

Edited February 10 by peachmangosteen

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

But I don't think the employees were in any real danger of dying from environmental factors; Lumon let them wander off and have sex and sleep out in the cold as part of the illusion of danger and freedom, but I don't think that, for instance, Irving was really at risk of freezing to death or they would've intervened.

How? Milchick certainly wasn’t aware that Helena was being drowned until it was almost too late. 

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I guess the 'Glasgow block' is in relation to Outies entering the Severence floor. They had to turn it off so that Helena would switch to Helly.

But they were outdoors, not in the building . . . 

[aghst]

Basically the implants can be controlled anywhere the severed people are.

They may have automated or geofenced the operation of the implant to automatically turn on once they got in that elevator and reached the floor.

But they can give these colorful terms like OTC or Glasgow Block but the bottom line is, they can flip the switch either way on each severed person, regardless of where they are.

Makes you wonder if Mark's reintegration is going to hold.  They didn't remove the implant so presumably, Lumon can kick the implant on if they find out about Mark's reintegration procedure.  Maybe flip in on and off a few times to really mess with the reintegration.

[arc]

On 2/9/2025 at 4:00 PM, JenE4 said:

I spent most of the episode trying to decide whether this was supposedly before Mark was reintegrated. But I guess the flash of Helly/Gemma showed us that the reintegration isn’t a light switch, and he was Innie Mark for most of the retreat.

I don't remember this myself, but people who did a rewatch say Petey said reintegration takes weeks after the actual procedure to fully take.

On 2/9/2025 at 4:00 PM, JenE4 said:

Conversely, this was Helena fully reintegrated the entire time.

Oh, I don't think she was reintegrated. To me, that was outie Helena playing at being Helly R.

Quote

For those who didn’t watch the segment at the end of the episode, the producers did confirm that Irv was correct and this has been Helena reintegrated since returning from the OTC.

Reintegration is where the innie and outie are merged back into one person. In the Inside the Episode, Ben Stiller says "Helena has been posing as Helly since they came back". So that's not a reintegrated Helly/Helena, that's just outie Helena.

7 hours ago, JenE4 said:

If he still was in the anti-Lumon, burn it all down frame of mind, why would he have been screaming and screaming for Mr Milcheck?

Irv's immediate goal was to get Helly back, and the only way to do that would be to get someone with authority to flip the innie/outie switch. The only person around there who could do that was Milchick. Irv wasn't asking like a devout supplicant, he was asking like a hostage taker. Rebel or true believer, there's still only one person he could have asked, so he had to ask Milchick.

 

5 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I took the Glasgow block as removing Irv from Severance, but I see you understood it to be Helena switching.

Removing the Glasgow Block is clearly to switch Helena back to Helly. Irv stays innie Irv, but Helly came back right after Milchick said "[remove the block] now!". A few moments later, Milchick formally fires Irv, and then Innie Irv was then switched to outie... or something. It's not clear. The external media from the creators have said it's intentionally ambiguous what happened at the end, and that's why they did a dolly-zoom on Irv but NOT the ding sound effect.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

How? Milchick certainly wasn’t aware that Helena was being drowned until it was almost too late.

Irv and Helena were just talking until seconds before he grabbed her and started screaming for Milchick. He didn't start drowning her until Milchick was there to witness it. They could've been under pretty comprehensive surveillance and it wouldn't have changed anything.

Though, for the record, what I'm imagining is happening is that a) the environment is more idiot-proofed than the innies are led to believe, such that they're not going to freeze to death or fall through the ice or whatever, but it's real enough that there's nothing to prevent a crazy unforeseen event like one innie trying to drown another in the pond (in the same way, as I mentioned, that it didn't think to protect against an innie in the office trying to cut her own fingers off or hang herself), and b) part of idiot-proofing the location probably entails some monitoring of each innie's location and maybe their vital signs, so even when they're on an unauthorized walkabout Lumon security is assured that they're not starving to death or in cardiac arrest or something.

Edited February 11 by Dev F

[Pi237]

Creepiest Dora the Explorer ever.

Loved it. 

Nothing to add, you all broke it down well. Also, I don’t like to overthink it.
 

Turturro was on fire. Hope Irv stays in future episodes. 

Cant wait to see what MDR is really doing that makes all of this worth it. 

 

[CarpeFelis]

On 2/7/2025 at 6:19 PM, dwmarch said:

Yes, they are all wearing the exact same style of coat. They are also all wearing pants which should have raised suspicion since Helly shouldn't really know what those are and should be somewhat amazed by them.

No way she’d be quite that naive. She might wonder why she’s wearing them—though being out in the cold is a pretty strong clue—but all the men wear them so she’d have to be incredibly dumb to wonder what they were.

Every time I think this show can’t get any weirder, it does. I thought the last episode with the indoor goat farm was pretty surreal, but this one really blew it out of the water. Especially with the book. Kier sounds more and more like a megalomaniac who thinks he’s a god, what with the very biblical sounding “spilled his seed upon the ground” passage. And Milchick insisting everything in the book is true. Anyone want to bet Dieter never really existed and was just made up by Kier?

ETA: While it would be interesting to rewatch knowing Helly was Helena pretending to be Helly, I don’t think I can stand to rewatch this anytime soon.

Also: WTH was up with Irv saying they should eat the dead seal (or whatever it was)? They had no way of knowing how it died or how long it had been dead. Much less any way to carve it up or cook it. Picture them all dying of some horrible intestinal infection…

Edited February 11 by CarpeFelis

[ombre]

7 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Also: WTH was up with Irv saying they should eat the dead seal (or whatever it was)? They had no way of knowing how it died or how long it had been dead. Much less any way to carve it up or cook it. Picture them all dying of some horrible intestinal infection…

I figure that was showing just how much he's come to distrust lumon. He no longer thinks they'll do the basic functions of keeping them alive. 

Otoh, it has me realizing that we've never seen any of them eat a meal (waffle party excepted). They get rewarded with snacks. They can eat up to two snacks bought with tokens each day. But I can't remember a lunch. Outies really do get all the joys of the flesh! 

[Kirbyrun]

22 hours ago, ombre said:

I have often wondered if outie Irving intentionally burns the candle at both ends to see what his subconscious carries over the boundary. 

Love this idea! Weird and surreal and bizarre and perfect! (And it might be more utilitarian than Mark's "burn something into your retinas" scheme, though not more precise!)

[iMonrey]

21 hours ago, Dev F said:

You can't think of an in-story reason why Lumon would want the innies to initially feel alone and isolated, with no authority figures around to protect and guide them, to undergo a terrifying and mystifying journey, and to then be reunited with a smiling Mr. Milchick in spotless white furs welcoming them back into the loving arms of the company?

Sure I can. But it's not my job to make up reasons why the show does stuff that doesn't make any practical sense. That's called hand-waving.

Hey, viewers are free to come up with any theories they want to explain weird stuff. Whatever floats your boat. Me, I have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to shows like this. I'm not willing to give a show the benefit of the doubt that everything actually means something that makes sense. I've been fooled too often by that before. And Severance has not yet earned that kind of trust IMO.

[tennisgurl]

I truly love all of the insane Lumen lore we get, its such utter nonsense but so highly mythologized that it feels too epic to question until someone finally does. It certainly is interested that Helena was laughing and making fun of the whole story, I can easily guess that, deep down, as someone who presumably knows much of Lumen's real history, she finds this crazy story hilarious. She's so stoic and repressed and spends so much time repeating the company line that she is probably relishing getting to throw some shade when she thinks she can get away with it. 

It feels like Lumen is giving everyone what they wanted but in the worst possible way, like a corporate monkeys paw. You cant to meet your outtie family? Have a weird awkward meet up with the wife you cant remember. Want to go outside and see the sky? Have a shitty winter team building activity where your freezing and exhausted the entire time. 

 When it comes to figuring out the logistics of what is happening and the reasons why they make the artistic choices they make, I tend to see the show as more allegorical than literal. I have tons of questions, even going down to if the Innies are even physically there or if they are basically data seeing things on a computer, but the show makes more sense to be as an allegory for corporate culture and how big business affects their employees and the world at large before its a science fiction story. You have Severing being sold as a solution to the much wanted "work/life balance" that people talk about, but is in reality a way for corporations to take over peoples lives even more while convincing them that they're helping them. You have Lumen's mythmaking and corporate sponsored fun and perks like the waffle party or the mandatory dance parties as creepy outcroppings of the "we're all a big family" sorts of corporate lines that they use to keep employees from complaining or asking for more and handing out little perks and "swag" style gifts instead of giving them real benefits or better wages. You have things like the mythical board only communicating via phone and never really speaking to emphasis the unapproachableness of the higher ups while people like Milcheck start appearing mostly on video when they have to deliver rough news to show how far away they are to the working stiffs of the company, and even the creepy weirdness of the severed floor feels like how office culture can feel weird and alienating when you aren't familiar with it or when you think about it too much.  

If this really is the end of Innie Irv, he certainly went out swinging with one hell of a punch from John Turturro. Everyone who called Helly being Helena, please enjoy your waffle party.  

[Ilovepie]

17 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Everyone who called Helly being Helena, please enjoy your waffle party.  

But what if I want a dance party instead? 

Oops, I wasn't convinced either way. Maybe a trip to the break room?😂

[anniebird]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Sure I can. But it's not my job to make up reasons why the show does stuff that doesn't make any practical sense. That's called hand-waving.

Hey, viewers are free to come up with any theories they want to explain weird stuff. Whatever floats your boat. Me, I have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to shows like this. I'm not willing to give a show the benefit of the doubt that everything actually means something that makes sense. I've been fooled too often by that before. And Severance has not yet earned that kind of trust IMO.

When I want gritty realism where everything makes sense, I don't watch a science fiction show.

[Kirbyrun]

Never mind.

Edited February 11 by Kirbyrun

[KarenX]

10 hours ago, ombre said:

Otoh, it has me realizing that we've never seen any of them eat a meal (waffle party excepted). They get rewarded with snacks. They can eat up to two snacks bought with tokens each day. But I can't remember a lunch.

I suddenly feel like I’ve seen an innie pull a white lunch sack out of a fridge. The snacks are probably just snacks. I think they are provided lunch from Lumon.

I feel like I might have seen Petey do that in the Mark reintegration flashbacks.

[ombre]

1 hour ago, Kirbyrun said:

Never mind.

Enh. You were spot-on. 

In a show like this, where world-building is so important and we're learning what we can from context, the medium is the message. One could, perhaps, just bop along with the overt surface-level information. But it's a show that's communicating through other tools as well. Not wanting to engage with those other tools is absolutely the perogative of any and every viewer, but it's kinda like listening to a picture book as an audiobook. Again, that's the reader's perogative, but it will probably make for a thinner interpretation of the material. 

[arc]

11 hours ago, ombre said:

But I can't remember a lunch. Outies really do get all the joys of the flesh! 

I’m not sure lunch has ever been shown onscreen. But in the pilot, when Mark S took on the temporary role of MDR chief (ahead of being promoted to the role permanently), he had a checklist of tasks, and one of them was to inspect lunches. They don’t bring lunches down there, so they must be provided by Lumon.

Personal speculation: I think a flavourless smoothie would be too bland for the mid-century aesthetic Lumon has down there. Probably they provide something along the lines of simple turkey sandwiches and the like. School cafeteria food.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Sure I can. But it's not my job to make up reasons why the show does stuff that doesn't make any practical sense. That's called hand-waving.

I think @Dev F was trying to say all that stuff had a clear purpose from Lumon’s point of view and so it does make sense. I think art is best when the audience engages with it and makes some of the last little jumps*. This is a matter of individual taste and some TV asks too little of audiences and some TV asks too much, but for me Severance is mostly doing a good job of it.

* Scott McCloud’s foundational book “Understanding Comics”, in chapter 3, talks about “closure”: a “phenomenon of observing the parts but perceiving the whole.” He is of course most interested in how comics work, but the book is relevant to all sorts of artistic mediums. When an audience gets to provide some of the closure, they can become much more invested in it than if everything is spoon fed.

[Kirbyrun]

1 hour ago, ombre said:

Enh. You were spot-on. 

Thank you kindly. I deleted because I realized there was really no point. I agree with what you said, and I particularly like your "listening to a picture book as an audiobook" metaphor.

[ombre]

2 hours ago, arc said:

Scott McCloud’s foundational book “Understanding Comics”, in chapter 3, talks about “closure”: a “phenomenon of observing the parts but perceiving the whole.” He is of course most interested in how comics work, but the book is relevant to all sorts of artistic mediums. When an audience gets to provide some of the closure, they can become much more invested in it than if everything is spoon fed.

There's a similar and really beautiful idea in studies of film music. Music is an excellent trigger for memory. The music used in films and tv (particularly but not only music that exists independently of the film. Stuff not written for the film) brings with it a huge range of memories for the audience. People who know those specific pieces get memories of other times they've heard it and it makes incredible layers of meaning. The filmmaker has little control over what those layers will be, only knows that they are or aren't using music that does or doesn't have widespread distribution in the moment when they're making the film. And they have *no* control over what happens afterwards, of course. If you want more control you can use stuff written for the film, but even then, you never know if it will become popular on its own. Anyway, using pre-composee music can create situations where people bring thick layers of meaning when interpreting your piece, even if you have little say in what those interpretations will be. (and, conversely, of course, it can be incredibly alienating to see a film filled with music you don't know. It can communicate that you're not the intended audience.) 

There are layers like that going on here. To me, the tv/vcr cart evokes pre-college education. It's the communication method for when the teacher was sick or otherwise stepping back. It feels ever so slightly infantalizing (for all the reasons discussed in someone else's earlier post). That's probably an interpretation they could predict evoking.

But this episode probably has a higher than usual number of elements that would evoke unpredictable responses.  Until now we've mostly been in the office and the cues have been kinda corporate cringe. But here... People have very different responses to winter.  Some love it, some hate it. The dead seal is an impossible thing (seals, as far as I know, don't climb cliffs and navigate shallow streams!), so it, too, would bring unpredictable interpretations.  And people probably have a wide range of experiences with big dead creatures. Similarly, the tent set-up are unusual enough that people would probably read it in different ways. To me, it seemed like a fire accident waiting to happen, and made me incredibly anxious. On the other hand, an adult reading a story and showing pictures to the audience is probably familiar to most viewers, but it's another crossed signal, encouraging us to see the adult mdr team as children. By using open-ended symbols like this, it makes for a more destabilizing viewing experience. Hence a more in-depth conversation about this ep than most of the others! 

Edited February 12 by ombre
Typos. And then the never-ending quest to speak clearly. :P

[Dev F]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Sure I can. But it's not my job to make up reasons why the show does stuff that doesn't make any practical sense. That's called hand-waving.

No, it's called reading the text. I would have no interest in a show that was so mind-numbingly literal that you couldn't assume the subtext meant anything unless they confirmed every implication in completely literal terms.

I mean, I'm not making an outlandish claim about how Severance is secretly about the dangers of a fiat currency or something. I'm seeing a through line about how a powerful corporation mythologizes itself and offers disingenuous promises of rewards to manipulate its white-collar workers . . . in a series that's all about how a powerful corporation mythologizes itself and offers disingenuous promises of rewards to manipulate its white-collar workers. 

Identifying in this episode the sorts of thematic threads that have been woven throughout the entire series is the exact opposite of jumping to wacky, unjustified conclusions. It's much wackier, I'd argue, to insist that the writers just wanted to write a cool episode in the wilderness with no regard for its deeper meaning, only to accidentally plug into the series' most important recurring themes.

Edited February 12 by Dev F

[iMonrey]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

No, it's called reading the text.

It's a TV show not a text. You are interpreting, not reading. Unless you have a pipeline to the writers you are conjecturing theories. Which is fine, nobody said you couldn't. Have at it. But until the writers come forward in an interview to explain what it means, you are just making assumptions. 

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's much wackier, I'd argue, to insist that the writers just wanted to write a cool episode in the wilderness with no regard for its deeper meaning, only to accidentally plug into the series' most important recurring themes.

I maintain the show has not earned my trust in its virtue and episodes like this move me further away from it.

Mileage varies, tastes differ. Let's move on.

[ombre]

I can't remember the last time I so enjoyed the pace of a weekly show. I don't watch all that much TV and really only look forward to one or two shows per year. I'd honestly forgotten the pleasure of having a week to ponder over a show and get to anticipate the next developments.

I'm liking how this season is giving some episodes entirely to one world or the other. The first ep drove home the fact that for the innies they are literally there for every waking moment. There is no rest.  They may feel rested if their outie is generous enough to sleep well and regularly, but they themselves literally just work and work and work. That may have been clear in the first season, but it wasn't *visceral* like it was in the first ep of season 2. By having two episodes set entirely in the innie world and ending with the revelation that they haven't actually had the band back together again... And now they never will (presumably, what with irv being terminated or whatever)... It feels like it's really ramping up the sense of their loss. I feel like the outie world has lost some of its urgency.  I assume that this next ep will switch back to the outside world and ramp up that tension there. I'm looking forward to it. 

And I'm looking forward to getting to hear folks on here. As I say, my specific training makes it hard to break out of my perspective on the show. It's a real pleasure to get to hear so many of you guys chiming in with what you're bringing to it and picking up on! Thank you!!! 

[lavenderblue]

I rewatched S1 last week and caught up to this episode this week. I admit that after watching the first two eps, it didn't occur to me that Helly was Helena until I read the discussion here. I did, however, find it deeply suspicious when she lied about her OTC experience and assumed that if nothing else, it could point to her being "in league" with her outie, so the theories here made sense. In this episode it couldn't have been more obvious, but the first huge clue was her sexual humor in the campfire story scene; as someone said above, it was like introducing a teenager to a bunch of 10-year-olds who to this point have been quite innocent in that capacity (Irv and Burt's romance was as wholesome as could be). While Mark has yet to fully reintegrate, he was also closer to her wavelength -- obviously! -- which could have been a side effect of that gradual shift. I was glad they had Irv pick up on her cruelty, because that, of course, was the other massive red flag.

I sincerely hope the show doesn't go a pregnancy route, but OTOH, there's potential foreshadowing beyond the weird babies in the credit sequence. In one of the early S1 eps, possibly the pilot, there's a scene with a news show touching on a woman who became pregnant while in her innie persona at work...

Edited February 13 by lavenderblue

[KittenPokerCheater]

I truly don’t want a pregnancy storyline because it’s such a boring trope, but maybe it means that Helly/Helena will have a pouch to carry the kid.

[Affogato]

There are also the religious implications of a child. Son of Kier. 

[Dev F]

On 2/12/2025 at 11:38 AM, iMonrey said:

It's a TV show not a text. You are interpreting, not reading.

"Reading the text" is a term of art in literary criticism. It means "interpreting." We're saying the same thing. Except for this:

Quote

Unless you have a pipeline to the writers you are conjecturing theories. Which is fine, nobody said you couldn't. Have at it. But until the writers come forward in an interview to explain what it means, you are just making assumptions. 

A reading/interpretation is not a "theory." It doesn't depend on the creators of a work exactly spelling out whether it's right or wrong. Finding meaning in, say, the works of Shakespeare doesn't come from looking up what Shakespeare said in interviews to confirm what his plays "really" meant. His plays mean what you're able to get out of them, despite the fact that Shakespeare didn't leave behind an answer key. The same thing is true of any text, whether it's a play or a novel or a TV show. 

Of course, the tricky thing about something like a TV show is that it's a work in progress, so the writers' own opinions are still relevant inasmuch as they might go on to write something later that contradicts a particular reading in the moment. So it pays to be cautious when it comes to unresolved questions like "Is Helly R. really herself or is she Helena Eagen?" since we can expect the show to eventually provide an answer one way or another. 

But if the question is "Did the writers intend for this episode to reflect the overarching themes of the series or did it just happen accidentally?" it seems silly to assume that the episode means nothing until and unless the writers spell out their thematic intentions—something most writers are reluctant to do, because it's kind of tacky to parse your own subtext. But clearly we disagree on this point, so I'm happy to leave it at that.

[iMonrey]

nm

Edited Saturday at 04:29 AM by iMonrey