S02.E05: Halls of Stone

[AnimeMania]

When Durin grows suspicious of the Dwarven Rings, Celebrimbor must reassess his priorities. Amidst Númenor’s shifting currents, Elendil searches for hope.

Premiere Date: September 12, 2024      Prime Video    

[Grimnar]

The show can have good music, visual and actors but the writing is poor and there isn't much improvement.

Dwarves storylines is still best(mainly Disa and younger Durin) but here we have speedrun in corrupting power of ring. We have dwarves needing sunlight to be able to survive(produce food) and at same time speech how dwarves actually are not slaves to sun.

Númenor also is on speedrun where King's men are oppressing Faithful. How is Sauron going to corrupt them when they are already there? Please, don't let Kemen be future Witch king. Witch king deserves better than most pathetic character in whole Númenor. I assume that no Anarion in the show. I hoped that Miriel will show more fight and don't let Pharazon just take over.

So dwarves rings are maybe corrupted because Celebrimbor lied to Gil-galad and how to fix situation is to create more rings but if they will try enough it will somehow redeem the situation? Can Sauron just wear robe where will be 'I am evil'? He is supposed to be master manipulator but it is needed to earned, not that Celembrimbor and other elves will just buy every word he say even when it contradict what he said 1 minute before.

Elrond ran whole episode.

I complained in last time that characters are just teleporting from one place to another but here it was just worser than last time. How Celebrimbor's message made it into Lindon and not just encounter Elrond on the way? Durin is just casually walking from Khazad-dum to Eregion and back. And elves don't notice approaching army till it is close to the city.

Do you think that Southlanders are wondering where is their king?

I saw one question in one review and it was: who is target audience for Rings of Power? There is too much lore changing to be accurate for book fans and at same time it is quite slow for casual audience.

[thuganomics85]

I swear, Celebrimbor is the most hilariously frustrating character here.  There is so much lore and backstory with him and he's probably played by one of the stronger actors as well, but his cluelessness with Sauron is comical.  I literally started cackling over his reaction when Durin was like "Hey, did you ever think that make this new mysterious, kind of shady guy you never met before might actually not be what he says he is?"  It truly looks like Celebrimbor never even considered that option.  I get not wanting to assume the worst of every stranger you met, but he's just too trusting with him.  To be fair, at least he isn't the only since this other elf lady also is falling for Sauron's act.  After-all, who doesn't like it when moody hot guy is all "You remind me of my former beau, babe!"

So, is the evil Disa sensed/heard suppose to be the Balrog or something else?  Either way, certainly hope Durin listens to her and doesn't put on any of those rings.  Certainly looks like dad has been corrupted by it.  Not just simply ill-tempered or impulsive, but even making everyone pay more than normal to satisfy his thirst for power: something he's apparently not known for.  Yeah, this isn't going to end well for him.

Numenor is a big old mess, since Al-Pharazon and his ilk are being the worst sore winners ever by going after everyone that opposes them: especially the Faithful.  Knew that his son was going to end up stabbing that solider in the back at the end.  The guy should have just tossed that sword much farther away instead of just dropping it.  And now it sounds like Elendil is going to be arrested and blamed for the "uprising."  Guess we'll see how Mirel will handle this development.  Pharazon's son might be smug now, but I suspect the premonition his father talked about earlier will end up being his fate.

Galadriel's is still in Adar's clutches, but it sounds like he actually wants to form an alliance with her to stop Sauron instead?  Hmm....

Despite its flaws, I do think this show is slightly better than last season.  These last two episodes in particular didn't drag like previous ones did for me and I'm at least getting a little invested in seeing how this all plays out.

[peridot]

I'm assuming magic is what's making Celebrimbor so gullible.  If not, then he's a stupid bastard for a being so old. 

Did the naive elf-smith just make the One Ring of Sauron?  She seems she's lost a couple of brain cells to immediately think the worse of her boss and believe every word out of Sauron's mouth.

Why on earth is the slimy king's son determined to shit all over everything?  Pissing off the faith seems to be a bad idea.  Of course he would stab someone in the back.  I wanted Elendil to slap the shit out of his daughter.  Her smug tone would have driven me up the wall.

This episode frustrated me because of everyone's bad choices.

[quarks]

1. I've been kinda trying to give the timeline a bit of a break here, since the in-show maps have established that Eregion and Khazad-dum are fairly close together and Lindon is a bit of a ways off, and although Mordor is also fairly far off, Frodo and Sam managed to get from Khazad-dum to Mordor in just a couple of months - with a little mini-vacation in Lothlorien along the way. So I'm willing to accept that Adar's little army would have made it close to Eregion by now if they left Mordor in episode 2. That timeframe also works with the Numenor timeline and the Rhun timeline.

I am struggling, however, to believe that the dwarves would have a) gotten the seven rings, b) reopened that many shafts/mines/hidden pools, c) welcomed that many agents/ambassadors from the six other dwarven realms, and d) traveled back to Eregion to say, hey, something seems slightly off here, ALL WHILE ELROND IS RUNNING BACK TO GIL-GALAD.

I feel this needed just a touch more storyboarding. Just a touch.  

2. Cut for minor book spoiler:

Spoiler

Sauron saying something nice about Beren? 

I mean, sure, great way to hide his true identity from Celebrimbor, since nobody - nobody - would ever think that Sauron would say something nice about Beren, but still.  (I have a few more quibbles about that entire little speech that probably should go into the book thread.)

3. Cut for completely different minor book spoiler and very minor speculation:

Spoiler

Was the whole "hey, I'm just a random but beautiful rock that will now go rolling round and round and round just happening to lead Disa down to a place where she could be warned that just maybe things weren't going great" supposed to be a message from Aule - the same way the boat rocking in the first episode was presumably a message from Ulmo or Osse?

If so, that's kinda cool, but also I was under the impression from the books that although some of the Valar - especially Ulmo, Manwe, and Varda - would occasionally send help or encouragement to various characters, especially Frodo, Aule wasn't one of these characters. Hmm. I guess this, too, should go in the book thread for more discussion.

3. If the timeline and book references were slightly off, though, the acting tonight was on point from pretty much everyone, with one major exception that I'll get to in a moment. Right down to the extras listening to Sauron, absolutely enthralled; the other extras playing mourners/soldiers in Numenor, and even the orcs fighting Galadriel.

The highlight, though, pretty much had to be Charlie Vickers as Sauron, capturing that absolutely reasonable, this isn't my fault at all manipulative evil, and also conveying that narcissistic thing where he's just pretending to be human and can almost but not quite manage it. It's chilling.

Runner-up: Lloyd Owen as Elendil, who is just not having a good time right now.

4. That one major exception: Ema Horvath as Eärien, who is just not selling me on any of this. It's not helping that I don't like the character, and that I also can't see the character given the responsibility for, say, eliminating an entire division of the Numenorean army. Kemen, as Pharazon's son, sure, but Eärien hasn't really done all that much on the show to suggest that she would be given all that much of a position of power, influence and responsibility. Sure, she's loyal to Pharazon, and sure, she found that palantir and accused Miriel - correctly - of using it, but she's also the daughter of a suspected member of the opposition and she just demonstrated that she wants to remain friends with a definite member of the opposition - something she did right in front of Kemen. 

But apart from my questions about that, I'm just not buying any of her expressions in this. It's a pity because otherwise I thought the Numenorean storyline was a highlight of this episode.

5. But speaking of Kemen, dude, you don't have to take Prince/King Joffrey as a role model! Honestly! There are better ways to manipulate people and become a major leader! Look at Sauron! 

6. Not-Galadriel! You are surrounded by beautiful people! Go flirt with one of them - any of them. TRUST ME ON THIS.

(She's not going to trust me on this, is she? Oh well. It was lovely to get to know her for an episode or two.)

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

 

I am struggling, however, to believe that the dwarves would have a) gotten the seven rings, b) reopened that many shafts/mines/hidden pools, c) welcomed that many agents/ambassadors from the six other dwarven realms, and d) traveled back to Eregion to say, hey, something seems slightly off here, ALL WHILE ELROND IS RUNNING BACK TO GIL-GALAD.

—————

The highlight, though, pretty much had to be Charlie Vickers as Sauron, capturing that absolutely reasonable, this isn't my fault at all manipulative evil, and also conveying that narcissistic thing where he's just pretending to be human and can almost but not quite manage it. It's chilling.

At first I thought the ring had appeared by magic in Durin III ring dish. A lot happened quickly. Fairly sure what Disa heard was the Balrog, not sure it had to be a warning from anyone. Durin won’t listen to Disa.  Durin IV is king at the War of the Last Alliance.  
 

Spoiler

And uses the ring. 

There is a lot to cover in the show. 

Sauron was flat out evil  and we now know that whole big burning eye thing, what he really looks like. I wonder where he goes from here. Well, to Mt Doom , where the one ring is forged. That is another hiking trip, though and presumably he would have to set up the equipment. I wonder if he takes nice elf smith woman with him. Also poor, deluded Celebrimbor. 
 

Adar may get on okay with Galadriel, proposing an alliance. They both have been burned by Sauron. They have a common enemy. It is even possible it fails because the Elves won’t accept it. And because the orcs aren’t ultimate evil, but they are slavers and other more human evil, the elves may have a point. 
 

Pharazon is angry and resentful of the Valar. Someone get him a book of Greek mythology. Never goes well. 

[Msample]

While Disa may have have heard the Balrog, given she was near water, I was half expecting the Watcher in the Water.

[katha]

The higher pace is working for me and while some of the writing is wonky, I think overall the storylines were compelling. IMO Vickers and Edwards are killing it, the deception with Annatar works for me because Vickers is selling it and because they made it reasonably plausible that the combined screw ups of everyone have created this catastrophe.

Galadriel through shame and pride didn't tell quickly enough that Halbrand is Sauron. So Celebrimbor was not dealing with complete information and with a malevolent powerful being who had already hooked himself into his mind via interactions as Halbrand. Then you have Celebrimbor's vanity and ambition, which Edwards portrays well, so he basically talks himself into letting Halbrand in. Sauron just has to nudge around a bit to get him spinning. And once he's in he seals the deal with the Annatar storyline.

Now we're at a stage that Sauron doesn't have to charm anymore, Celebrimbor is stuck. He made the seven rings and disobeyed his king, the rings are flawed and now he doesn't want to question either his own skills/judgement as well as Annatar, but is starting to do it. While Sauron adds in the pressure, gaslights and probably also rummages around in his mind. To the point that he tells his usual half-truths and then turns them into guilt trips on Celebrimbor.

Also appreciated that they showed how he's getting his hooks into the other Elves at the forge, further isolating Celebrimbor. The desperation with Celebrimbor is palpable, but he's like a gambler now stuck in the thought spiral that continuing to do the same thing will bring a solution. When of course it won't.

I do really like Vickers' structure of movement, it's eerie. There's a stillness to him that makes him both predatory but also strengthens the effect that it's an otherwordly being wearing Elven skin like a dress.

Also, Numenor was finally compelling. I think the show really, really needs to sort out their pacing and priorities in the edits. No one needed that much Harfoots walking around for two seasons, while they arguably didn't focus enough on the central tragedy of the Second Age in Numenor.

[tennisgurl]

This show still has its issues with its writing and pacing, but this season is quite a bit more compelling than the first season. The pace is quicker and I am more interested in what is happening, which is probably helped by a lot less cuts to Harfoots traipsing around and Galadriel raging against the elves. 

The new slimeball king of Numenor is really losing the people fast, destroying holy sites and getting rid of clearly beloved military leaders like Elendil, just being assholes for the sake of being petty is going to bite them so hard soon. I want to smack that kings shitty son so hard, and then I'll smack Elendil's smug daughter, she has a lot of nerve lecturing her dad about "avenging" her brothers death. You know, his son! 

Celebrimbor is starting to have some slight doubts, but he's gone too far to stop now so it seems like he's doubling down. Sauron is so obviously manipulating him for nefarious purposes, but I can handwave it as the elves not being used to dealing with being so much more powerful and much cruel than them. That blond lady elf is really falling for that classic "angsty brilliant guy who says you remind him of an old love" routine, which I guess is new and fresh for elves. 

Its really sad knowing how things play out for Durin and the dwarfs, their home was so lovely and now its going to be destroyed and corrupted by the ring. I hope Durin the Younger never puts one on.

[quarks]

I like the Harfoots, but I think that maybe - maybe - ten episode seasons, which would allow us to get to know Numenor and, to be fair, more of the minor characters of Eregion, Lindon and Khazad-dum, just a touch better would be an improvement.

Miriel, Pharazon and Elendil, and to a lesser extent Kemen are all working for me, but I think we needed to see more of the relationship between Earien and her family, not to mention more of Valandil, for those scenes to really land this episode. Also, a bit more about how different Numenoreans feel about the Valar.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Another episode of smart people making dumb decisions.

I'm glad I'm not a Tolkien sycophant so I can't get mad over shit I'll never read.

[astrohip]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:53 PM, thuganomics85 said:

To be fair, at least he isn't the only since this other elf lady also is falling for Sauron's act.  After-all, who doesn't like it when moody hot guy is all "You remind me of my former beau, babe!"

 

21 hours ago, peridot said:

Did the naive elf-smith just make the One Ring of Sauron?  She seems she's lost a couple of brain cells to immediately think the worse of her boss and believe every word out of Sauron's mouth.

 

12 hours ago, Affogato said:

 I wonder if he takes nice elf smith woman with him. Also poor, deluded Celebrimbor. 

 

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

That blond lady elf is really falling for that classic "angsty brilliant guy who says you remind him of an old love" routine, which I guess is new and fresh for elves. 

The blond lady elf is Mirdania, an Elven-smith, and Celebrimbor's lead assistant. She's played by Amelia Kenworthy.

I noticed she was invisible also while wearing the ring, but I doubt that's the "One Ring". It's probably Sauron Annatar just practicing.  

[Affogato]

2 minutes ago, astrohip said:

 

 

 

The blond lady elf is Mirdania, an Elven-smith, and Celebrimbor's lead assistant. She's played by Amelia Kenworthy.

I noticed she was invisible also while wearing the ring, but I doubt that's the "One Ring". It's probably Sauron Annatar just practicing.  

As far as I know the One Ring was forged in the fires of Mount Doom, which is why it had to be destroyed there. This was a LoTR plot point. 

[wanderingstar]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:53 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I literally started cackling over his reaction when Durin was like "Hey, did you ever think that make this new mysterious, kind of shady guy you never met before might actually not be what he says he is?"  It truly looks like Celebrimbor never even considered that option.  I get not wanting to assume the worst of every stranger you met, but he's just too trusting with him.

Especially since Galadriel told Celebrimbor not to treat with him.

 

22 hours ago, peridot said:

I wanted Elendil to slap the shit out of his daughter.  Her smug tone would have driven me up the wall.

Eärien aggravates me. So smug and vindictive. I get that she's grieving for her lost brother, but that is not a license to be an asshole. Really liked Elendil in this episode, even if he didn't always make the best decisions.

Are they hinting at something romantic with Miriel and Elendil? If so, I'm not opposed to it-lol

Continuing to enjoy this season, particularly Charlie Vickers' performance as Annatar/Sauron. I found it interesting that Celebrimbor can recognize that Annatar is manipulative and still fall for it.

My heart breaks for Durin watching his father get consumed by that ring. He and Disa continue to be two of my favorites.

My quibbles about this episode are 1) too little Elrond, and 2) not picking up right where we left off with Adar capturing Galadriel.

 

[susannot]

I agree with whoever said that the central tragedy of the season is the fall of Numenor.  But will they get to it in the next 5 episodes? Will they show Al-Pharazon's resentment of the Valar growing to the extent that he sails to the undying lands?  There is a lot of story left to tell.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, susannot said:

I agree with whoever said that the central tragedy of the season is the fall of Numenor.  But will they get to it in the next 5 episodes? Will they show Al-Pharazon's resentment of the Valar growing to the extent that he sails to the undying lands?  There is a lot of story left to tell.

The end of this season seems early for the fall of Numenor. 

Spoiler

If you mean the flooding. For one thing  Sauron loses his body and ability to take pleasing forms when Numenor makes like Atlantis  

And also it just seems like the story is too undeveloped. 

Edited September 14 by Affogato

[Msample]

In addition to Theo, I think we can add Pharazon’s son as a prime candidate to become a Nazgûl. He’s enough of an asshole that he’ll need little convincing to take one of the nine rings .

[susannot]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

The end of this season seems early for the fall of Numenor. 

  Hide contents

If you mean the flooding. For one thing Saruman loses his body and ability to take pleasing forms when Numenor makes like Atlantis  

And also it just seems like the story is too undeveloped. 

Yes I mean that but I think it's Sauron who loses his body in the fall of Numenor.  If this season doesn't end with the fall of Numenor will it end with the arrival of Sauron in Numenor?

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, susannot said:

Yes I mean that but I think it's Sauron who loses his body in the fall of Numenor.  If this season doesn't end with the fall of Numenor will it end with the arrival of Sauron in Numenor?

Yes, that is the second time I’ve done that name switch. Weird. I fixed in original message.
 

 I would think Sauron arriving in Numenor would make more sense. We would have another season of his machinations. i forget how many seasons they have planned, but i wonder if casual viewers have any idea of why Pharazon is upset.

if the show is cut short they will regret the harfoots, I think. 

Edited September 14 by Affogato

[quarks]

The showrunners have said in multiple interviews that the show is planned to run for five seasons.  Season three is currently in pre-production.

[Haleth]

Finally got to watch!  I think someone was paying attention because the lighting was much better.  I could actually see every scene.

The music is fantastic.  Love how it evokes the wonderful music of the movies.  (I can't tell you how long I had the cds playing in my car everytime I drove.  I just love the soundtrack.)

I agree Celebrimbor and the flirty girl smith are dumber than the rocks of Khazad Dum.  Yeah, I get that Sauron has an aura that causes everyone to trust him and his shiny jewelry.  Thank goodness for Durin and Disa and their common sense.

I'm also frustrated with the Numenor storyline.  We haven't spent enough time with Elendil for me to be that invested in him, but I was sorry that one boy got stabbed in the back.  (Who didn't see that coming?)  I do look forward to seeing Pharazon's boy (hate his smug ass) and Elendil's daughter (hate her smug ass) realizing they picked the wrong ruler and angered the gods.  This all seems to be moving so quickly and Annatar isn't even there yet!

So Adar did recognize Halbrand/Sauron?  He knows Sauron is still around?

I did not miss the wacky Harfoot adventures.

On 9/13/2024 at 10:32 AM, katha said:

I do really like Vickers' structure of movement, it's eerie. There's a stillness to him that makes him both predatory but also strengthens the effect that it's an otherwordly being wearing Elven skin like a dress.

Yes!  He never changes his expression.  He never shows anger or frustration when dealing with Celebrimbor, just a level calmness.  It's part of his manipulation, making Cel doubt himself.  (Good work, Charlie Vickers!)

On 9/13/2024 at 2:27 AM, quarks said:

Frodo and Sam managed to get from Khazad-dum to Mordor in just a couple of months

It was more like 6 months.

On 9/12/2024 at 6:53 PM, thuganomics85 said:

So, is the evil Disa sensed/heard suppose to be the Balrog

Yup

14 hours ago, susannot said:

Yes I mean that but I think it's Sauron who loses his body in the fall of Numenor.  If this season doesn't end with the fall of Numenor will it end with the arrival of Sauron in Numenor?

That's what I'm thinking.  

[Grimnar]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

So Adar did recognize Halbrand/Sauron?  He knows Sauron is still around?

 

Maybe I don't remember first episode that well but I think Halbrand told Adar that Sauron is in Eregion and is making with elves weapon againts orcs. So Adar know that Sauron is in Eregion but doesn't know that Halbrand is Sauron. I assume that during battle Sauron will take Halbrand form and would trick Adar and maybe backstab him after battle.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

 

It was more like 6 months.

 

It took them six months to reach Mordor from the Shire, largely because they spent several weeks resting in Rivendell.

It took them about two and a half months to get from Khazad-dum to Mount Doom, partly because they spent close to a month in Lothlorien. 

Here are the dates, from Appendix B:

Spoiler

September 23: Frodo leaves Bag End

October 20: A wounded Frodo arrives in Rivendell

December 25: The Fellowship leaves Rivendell

January 13: The Fellowship enters Moria/Khazad-dum

January 15: The Fellowship leaves Moria/Khazad-dum

January 17: The Fellowship, minus Gandalf, who is taking the long way around, arrives in Lothlorien.

February 16: The Fellowship leaves Lothlorien

March 3: Merry and Pippin reach Isengard

March 25: Frodo and Sam reach Mount Doom

It takes them about three and a half months to get back to the Shire, largely because they keep stopping for funerals and parties along the way:

July 19: Hobbits leave Minas Tirith

August 7 through 14: Theoden's funeral

August 22: Hobbits arrive at Isengard

September 6: "The sight of the Mountains of Moria" Galadriel's farewell party starts

September 13: Hobbits say goodbye to Galadriel and Celeborn, leave the sight of the Mountains of Moria

September 21: Hobbits arrive at Rivendell again

October 5: Hobbits leave Rivendell

October 30: Hobbits return to the Shire

Based on these timelines, we can guess that it generally takes a little less than a month to travel from Rivendell to the Shire, about two months to travel from Minas Tirith to Rivendell, about a month and a half to travel from Moria to Mordor, and a little less than a month to travel from Isengard to Rivendell. 

Putting all this together, I'm willing to buy that Adar and his armies could have reached Eregion in a couple of months.

[Grimnar]

5 minutes ago, quarks said:

It took them six months to reach Mordor from the Shire, largely because they spent several weeks resting in Rivendell.

It took them about two and a half months to get from Khazad-dum to Mount Doom, partly because they spent close to a month in Lothlorien. 

Here are the dates, from Appendix B:

  Reveal spoiler

September 23: Frodo leaves Bag End

October 20: A wounded Frodo arrives in Rivendell

December 25: The Fellowship leaves Rivendell

January 13: The Fellowship enters Moria/Khazad-dum

January 15: The Fellowship leaves Moria/Khazad-dum

January 17: The Fellowship, minus Gandalf, who is taking the long way around, arrives in Lothlorien.

February 16: The Fellowship leaves Lothlorien

March 3: Merry and Pippin reach Isengard

March 25: Frodo and Sam reach Mount Doom

It takes them about three and a half months to get back to the Shire, largely because they keep stopping for funerals and parties along the way:

July 19: Hobbits leave Minas Tirith

August 7 through 14: Theoden's funeral

August 22: Hobbits arrive at Isengard

September 6: "The sight of the Mountains of Moria" Galadriel's farewell party starts

September 13: Hobbits say goodbye to Galadriel and Celeborn, leave the sight of the Mountains of Moria

September 21: Hobbits arrive at Rivendell again

October 5: Hobbits leave Rivendell

October 30: Hobbits return to the Shire

Based on these timelines, we can guess that it generally takes a little less than a month to travel from Rivendell to the Shire, about two months to travel from Minas Tirith to Rivendell, about a month and a half to travel from Moria to Mordor, and a little less than a month to travel from Isengard to Rivendell. 

Putting all this together, I'm willing to buy that Adar and his armies could have reached Eregion in a couple of months.

For me isn't problem that Adar reached Eregion in 1 or 2 months. For me the problem is that timeline doesn't work between each storylines. I mean that if Sauron and Celebrimbor storyline and Adar's storyline took few months(Adar had to gather army, cross Anduin will be difficult as there is no bridge yet and then march to Eregion), how much time passed for Elrond's, Stranger's and Númenor's storylines in comparison with previous two?

[quarks]

It's definitely difficult for me to make the timelines in the show make any sense.

1. In the Khazad-dum plot, the dwarves have made at least a couple of trips back and forth to Eregion; designed and built a rather lovely magic door; vastly expanded the mines; welcomed at least six dwarven emissaries, and brought in quite a bit of finished (that is, not just mined, but worked with, presumably in a forge of some sort) gold into Durin III's main room.

That was just in this one episode; if you add in the events of the previous episodes, which included an earthquake and the realization that they were going to starve to death, it's probably been at least three, more likely six months since the start of season two.

2. In the Numenor plot, the Faithful are just barely getting around to holding funeral ceremonies for everyone who died or presumably died in the Southlands - so seemingly not that long - but, enough time has passed for Earien, a member of a Faithful family, to ingratiate herself with Kemen and Pharazon to the point of being able to keep or dismiss military leaders, and enough time to put together a somewhat disorganized coronation and a military coup. The timeline here is really vague - it could be a couple of weeks since Miriel and Elendil's return from war, or several months. 

3. In the Southlands plot, Adar and the orcs have had time to set up a base camp and basic buildings, and a system of branding humans supposedly loyal to Adar. Arondir in turn has had time to learn what the brand looks like and where it is usually located. I'd like to think that this took at least a month, perhaps more, but...

....also, the ash and whatever over Mordor and nearby areas seems to have mostly settled down, and the areas of the forest covered with ash at the end of last season are already nice and green, which would suggest a longer period. Let's say three months, but...

....are we really expected to believe that it took that horse one to three months to reach Isildur, and that Isildur is still capable of battling baby Shelob after one to three months of hanging in a cave? That seems to have been a shorter period - let's say a couple of weeks. Which does not mesh with the rest of the timeline.

4. In the Lindon plot, they've had time to hold a funeral for a dying tree and get everyone ready to sail over to Valinor, halt the funeral for the dying tree and get everyone to stay in Middle-Earth, use the Rings to restore other parts of Lindon, realize that the Rings are giving them little flashes of precognition, and send spies to Mordor/Adar and get reports back from said spies. Some of this could be done quickly, but not all of it.

5. In the Elrond plot, he's doing a lot of running.

6. In the Eregion plot, they have failed to hear from any of the Lindon people - but not to the point where they are actually worried about any of the Lindon people even though, last they all knew, the Elves were all fading and dying and all that and they only had a few months left. Granted some of the lack of concern here is thanks to Sauron's lying and manipulating, but still, it feels as if it can't have been too long....

....but during this period they have also helped build a magic door, crafted Seven Rings for dwarves, convinced the dwarves to take the ring, crafted additional rings that confer invisibility but otherwise don't quite work, and met with the dwarves several times. The last meeting, with Durin IV, almost certainly had to be at least a couple of weeks after they gave the rings to the dwarves - to account both for the travel time and for Durin III to note the changes in his father's character and recognize that this was more than just one day.

So the timeline isn't clear here, either, but, I'm thinking at least three months?

7. Meanwhile, over in Rhun, it seems that only a couple of weeks or at most one month have passed since The Stranger failed to actually kill The Three Weird Guys, unless we can believe that the Evil Wizard would be willing to wait three months to summon the Three Weird Guys for an explanation, and I don't think we are supposed to believe that. And although that plot isn't directly connected to the rest of the show, we did see the other characters see the meteor that brought the Stranger to the Harfoots in the first place, and we saw the flaming debris from Mount Doom hit the Harfoots - so I'm fairly sure that the timelines are supposed to be kinda matching up.

That's the best I've got.

[Camera One]

So much for my plan to watch this episode earlier, but every time I considered watching on the weekend, it felt like a chore so I deferred it.  Finally got to it, and it was depressing.  I think the episode was still engaging, but I can only take so much of everything going Sauron's way while no one listens to the voices of reason.

Starting with Numenor, Pharazon's son was evil to the point of caricature.  I was sad that Isildur has no friends left anymore and there are only redshirts left to kill off (plus his death means one less potential payoff when Isildur is discovered to be alive).  It would have been more interesting to see Elendil, Muriel and that friend start to build an underground movement first.  The "good guys" were just helplessly reacting and hurting, and that was no fun.

Elendil's daughter was pretty nasty to her father.  Was their relationship that bad in Season 1?   Not that we saw much of them so the characterization was never fleshed out to begin with.  Elendil seemed to hate her too.  I don't blame him, but this was supposed to be his daughter.  Are we to believe they didn't have a private conversation after the disaster of a coronation?  

The timeline mentioned by many above also stopped me from being fully immersed in the overall plot.  I wish we saw more spread-out pacing of the dwarves with the rings.  The emissaries of the other dwarf kingdoms all came so quickly?  This whole dwarf subplot seemed to be on fast forward, while Elrond took another scenic route back to Lindon.  Plus it still didn't make sense to me why Durin the Younger would go to his dad about the plan with the rings when he didn't trust them to begin with.  

We hardly saw Durin the Younger in Eregion but he should have had some screentime with Annatar before he expressed he didn't trust him.  And why would Durin assume Annatar was the ringmaker and not Celebrimbor?

The subplot with Sauron manipulating Celebrimbor didn't make sense to me.  Celebrimbor said he wouldn't approve the making of rings for men.  Sauron said "Fine, I'll make them myself", and Celebrimbor just let him do it?  Later on, Celebrimbor admitted the 7 rings were flawed, but to fix the problem, they should make 9 more?  Wouldn't these 9 rings also be messed up because "deceit" was also baked in?  Why was Celebrimbor lecturing his smith assistants so angrily?  It felt like they only had that scene so we could see Annatar "winning over" those elf extras, who all looked bored and spaced out.   I couldn't really buy Annatar's sway over people, mainly because he could only have conversations with two characters in Eregion (and one was that thinly drawn assistant woman and she was swayed with a single conversation in a single episode).

Edited September 17 by Camera One

[Emily Thrace]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:27 PM, Grimnar said:

The show can have good music, visual and actors but the writing is poor and there isn't much improvement.

Yeah considering how they spent its frustrating that they didn't seem to think the writers mattered too much. They had a great team writing the Expanse (different genre but structurally quite similar actually) not go with them? Or drive a truck full of money up to RDM's house. Or how about hire a fucking woman if your going to have a female lead. So many of the shows problems can be summed up as these knuckleheads can't write women. At least not as 3 dimensional humans capable of thinking of more than one thing at a time. 

It is getting better but honestly thats more the acting than anything else. Charlie Vickers is really shooting for that Emmy.

The sad thing about Durin's promise to Disa is you know he is going to break it. I just hope she doesn't die and they use that as an excuse for Durin to go nuts. I was really worried when she chased the crystal into that dark cave. It's too early for the Balrog but Goblin attack might fit.

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

Yeah considering how they spent its frustrating that they didn't seem to think the writers mattered too much. They had a great team writing the Expanse (different genre but structurally quite similar actually) not go with them? Or drive a truck full of money up to RDM's house. Or how about hire a fucking woman if your going to have a female lead. So many of the shows problems can be summed up as these knuckleheads can't write women. At least not as 3 dimensional humans capable of thinking of more than one thing at a time. 

The show did hire several women:

1. Gennifer Hutchinson (wrote episode 102, "Adrift," and 201 "Elven Rings Under the Sky; also has co-writing credit for episode 108, "Alloyed," also has executive producer credit (aka, showrunner) for seasons 1 and 2.

2. Stephany Folsom (co-writer for episode 104, "The Great Wave," also is credited as consulting producer on 8 episodes, which can mean a lot of things but usually means additional story input)

3. Helen Shang (wrote episode 203, "The Eagle and the Sceptre," IMDB also has her credited as a producer/co-producer on 11 episodes)

4. Glenise Mullins (wrote episode 204, "Eldest," credited as a co-producer on 6 episodes)

As far as I know none of them worked on The Expanse, but Hutchinson wrote for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, and has been nominated for various Emmys and Writer's Guild of America Awards.  Folsom wrote for Toy Story 4, and Star Wars: Resistance, and somewhat infamously did script doctoring work for Thor: Ragnorak. I was unfamiliar with Glenise Mullins prior to this show, but she previously scripted for Star Trek: Discovery and other genre shows. Same with Helen Shang, who does not appear to have too many previous scriptwriting credits, but has been working in production in multiple genres for multiple shows for years. 

So Amazon didn't just hire a fucking woman; they hired four, gave all four producing credit, and made one of them a showrunner, and had them write about 1/3 or 33% of the episodes so far.

Since The Expanse was mentioned, that show had one - one - woman writer on staff for the first season, Robin Neith. The other seven writers were men. Neith wrote two episodes and received co-writing credit on a third; so...about 25% of the ten episodes of that season. In the second season, Neith again wrote two episodes; new hire Georgia Lee wrote two episodes, and new hire Hallie Lambert wrote one. That is, five out of 13 episodes - or about 38% of the episodes, only slightly better than Rings of Power's record so far.

But here's the fun part. That was all back when The Expanse was with SyFy. When Amazon took over the show for season 4, only two of those ten episodes were written by women. Only one of the ten episodes of season 5 was written by a woman. Season 6? No women writers whatsoever.

So if Amazon had just, as you suggest, gone with the team they had for The Expanse, even fewer episodes of Rings of Power would have been scripted by women.

 

[Emily Thrace]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

The show did hire several women:

1. Gennifer Hutchinson (wrote episode 102, "Adrift," and 201 "Elven Rings Under the Sky; also has co-writing credit for episode 108, "Alloyed," also has executive producer credit (aka, showrunner) for seasons 1 and 2.

2. Stephany Folsom (co-writer for episode 104, "The Great Wave," also is credited as consulting producer on 8 episodes, which can mean a lot of things but usually means additional story input)

3. Helen Shang (wrote episode 203, "The Eagle and the Sceptre," IMDB also has her credited as a producer/co-producer on 11 episodes)

4. Glenise Mullins (wrote episode 204, "Eldest," credited as a co-producer on 6 episodes)

As far as I know none of them worked on The Expanse, but Hutchinson wrote for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, and has been nominated for various Emmys and Writer's Guild of America Awards.  Folsom wrote for Toy Story 4, and Star Wars: Resistance, and somewhat infamously did script doctoring work for Thor: Ragnorak. I was unfamiliar with Glenise Mullins prior to this show, but she previously scripted for Star Trek: Discovery and other genre shows. Same with Helen Shang, who does not appear to have too many previous scriptwriting credits, but has been working in production in multiple genres for multiple shows for years. 

So Amazon didn't just hire a fucking woman; they hired four, gave all four producing credit, and made one of them a showrunner, and had them write about 1/3 or 33% of the episodes so far.

Since The Expanse was mentioned, that show had one - one - woman writer on staff for the first season, Robin Neith. The other seven writers were men. Neith wrote two episodes and received co-writing credit on a third; so...about 25% of the ten episodes of that season. In the second season, Neith again wrote two episodes; new hire Georgia Lee wrote two episodes, and new hire Hallie Lambert wrote one. That is, five out of 13 episodes - or about 38% of the episodes, only slightly better than Rings of Power's record so far.

But here's the fun part. That was all back when The Expanse was with SyFy. When Amazon took over the show for season 4, only two of those ten episodes were written by women. Only one of the ten episodes of season 5 was written by a woman. Season 6? No women writers whatsoever.

So if Amazon had just, as you suggest, gone with the team they had for The Expanse, even fewer episodes of Rings of Power would have been scripted by women.

 

Showrunners for the show are still JD Payne and Patrick McKay. Who read "Sauron was invading the edges of Galadriels mind" and thought romance. Which is misogynistic and creepy on so many levels I don't know where to start. Clearly the rot starts at the top on this one. The male characters are still more complex and layered largely because they are allowed to be by the writers. I suspect some of that is because the two I named above have certain baises and beliefs about women.

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

Showrunners for the show are still JD Payne and Patrick McKay. Who read "Sauron was invading the edges of Galadriels mind" and thought romance. Which is misogynistic and creepy on so many levels I don't know where to start. Clearly the rot starts at the top on this one. The male characters are still more complex and layered largely because they are allowed to be by the writers. I suspect some of that is because the two I named above have certain baises and beliefs about women.

You may well be correct that the two of them have certain biases about women. But:

1. JD Payne and Patrick McKay are not the only showrunners/executive producers. Yes, they are doing a lot of the interviews - but their interviews also reveal that one of the main guiding forces behind this show is former Amazon executive Sharon Tal Yguado, who is not only credited as a showrunner/executive producer/creative executive, but as the one who helped pitch the show in the first place and then hired the rest of the showrunners, producers and writers. She remained with the show after she left Amazon and by all accounts maintains a leading creative role in between doing gaming stuff, reading/reviewing/approving all scripts.

Other executive producers/showrunners include Lindsey Weber, who also does a lot of interviews and appears to be active on the creative side, and, as previously mentioned, Gennifer Hutchinson. All three of these women appear to be heavily involved in the show on the creative side, in contrast to, say, Eugene Kelly who appears to be there to keep an eye on copyright/trademark issues with New Line/Warner Bros, or Bruce Richmond, who I suspect is there to handle finances. Those two aren't running around doing interviews and conventions. Lindsey Weber and Gennifer Hutchinson are - and they are discussing why decisions were made and what involvement they had in those decisions.

2. I think it's important to note that many viewers don't see any sort of romance between Galadriel and Sauron at all, or Galadriel and Halbrand, either. That's a mileage may vary situation, certainly, but I don't think this is a situation that was necessarily intended to be read romantically by all viewers. The show has, after all, been fairly explicit about its other romances, both the established ones (Durin and Disa, Poppy's parents, the Ents) and the potential ones (Arondir and Bronwyn, Poppy and Nobody, Eärien and Kemen, Isildur and What's Her Name, and What's Her Name and What's His Name).

I'm not saying that Galadriel and Sauron/Halbrand haven't had their romantically coded moments - I think they have - but those moments are nowhere near as clear as the near kiss between Isildur and What's Her Name, or the actual kiss between What's Her Name and What's His Name, or the Love At First Sight between Poppy and Nobody, or the way Eärien and Kemen are continually grouped together as a couple, or the way people spoke to Arondir about the issues of pursuing a romance with Bronwyn - a conversation that no one has had with Galadriel. People aren't talking to Galadriel about the risks to her heart. They're talking about the risks to her mind. 

But let's assume, for a moment, that this is intended to be viewed as explicitly, blatantly romantic. That still leaves one glaring difficulty:

We have no idea who came up with the idea of teasing a romance between Galadriel and Sauron, when they came up with this idea, or how.

The idea of Galadriel being tempted by Sauron and Sauron's power was probably there from the beginning because that's from the books - it's not an original idea from anyone involved in this show. But the ship teasing stuff may well have come up during filming, when showrunners/writers/directors noted the chemistry between the two actors and told them to play it up. We don't know - but it wouldn't be the first time that a show looked at the relationship between a couple of actors, said, yeah, let's go with that, and written towards that relationship.

3. In any case, look, I agree that the industry needs to hire more women across the board, not just on this show or just at Amazon. But I also kinda have to note that women have worked on and written some deeply misogynistic stuff - so just having women around isn't sufficient. And that's partly because -

4. The final calls here aren't coming from any of the showrunners. Those final calls are coming from Amazon executives. 

Which leads me to:

5. I'm not convinced that all of the male characters are more complex and layered than all of the women characters. This very much depends. Yes, we have Eärien, a character who is not working for me - but we also have Disa, Nori, Poppy, and Gundabale (who has, granted, barely appeared in the show, but done a lot with that limited screen time) and Miriel. 

How is this connected to Amazon? Well, reportedly, Amazon executives, after seeing the first cuts of the first few episodes, ordered the showrunners to remove much of the Numenor plot - a plot that presumably gave more screentime and depth to Eärien and Miriel.

So again, you may very well be right that JD Payne and Patrick McKay have some deep inner rot in their souls. I've never met either of them, so I can't tell. But it's equally possible that the deep inner rot comes at least partly from Amazon executives, who watched a show about men - very specifically men - feeling envious and resentful of the power of women and the immortality of the elves, making plans to remove those women from power and challenge traditional ways of doing things, and said, yes, let's cut as much of that as we can.

[katha]

Yeah, I think there are aspects of the show that scream "executive interference" tbh. IMO they probably said "we gotte have Gandalf and hobbits in a LOTR show", which would explain why that plot often seems so inorganic and disconnected from everything else. We know they had to cut Numenor down for reasons (which was a terrible decision tbh), I can also see it tied to not being "allowed" to cut down on the Harfoots in contrast to make it fit into 8 episodes. 

They did start with the pitch of that Galadriel freak-out on the ring in the LOTR book/movie, so that connection is something they've been interested in. Agree that the ship baiting is tiresome here, but it's probably a mix of showrunners wanting to pander to shippers and Amazon wanting to pander to shippers. The question why Galadriel and Sauron are avoiding each other in the Third Age is an interesting one, I think. Gandalf is close to the ring, he's going into battle openly with Sauron. Why is Galadriel staying out of it? A situation where Sauron and Galadriel have so totally compromised themselves with each that they fear open confrontation is one way of explaining this.

Sauron fears mutual destruction, Galadriel fears his corrupting influence. And they've had a leitmotif of Galadriel having an inner darkness as well as not being very self-aware of this. She just loads anger and self-righteousness on everything and tries to sell it as moral virtue. Various characters have called her out on this. Sauron sees this and tries to recruit her as a second in command (he won't share power, that's just nonsense he tells her to make the offer more tempting), which would bolster his pitch for ME domination. 

Now, do I think this is all well done? Nah, IMO they have made drastic changes to Galadriel without perhaps always thinking through how this effects the larger world building. At a certain point her personal angst regarding Sauron becomes irrelevant because the crap decisions she's made have catastrophic repercussions for the world beyond just her personal journey. So they try to ignore that to some degree and...I'm not convinced. But I can see why they thought it's interesting. 

[Camera One]

I don't think any of the characters on this show are complex/layered or particularly well written, male or female.  A lot of the time, their actions feel driven by the plot, from the very start of the show.  None of these characters got to "live" in their world, whether it be Numenor or Eregion or the South Lands or Lindon or Khazad-dun before they were thrust into artificial situations where it was telegraphed how the audience should feel about them.  

So now, we are halfway through Season 2, and I still don't buy most of the supposedly important relationships between characters, which means it's hard to care when the characters fight or make up or whatever.  Galadriel and Elrond's "friendship", for example.  If you don't buy it, then their season-long bickering was just annoying and petty.  Elendil and his daughter, Durin the Younger and Durin the Elder, Celebrimbor and his workers... their rifts in this episode meant nothing if there was nothing to hang on to in the first place.  Even the scenes with Elendil and Muriel left me cold, because I have no idea how well they knew each other before Galadriel arrived.  

Even if Amazon pushed the stuff with the Harfoots and the Stranger, it doesn't excuse the poor writing, pacing, and worldbuilding in all the other story threads.   If Numenor got less time, then they shouldn't have bothered with Pharazon's son and Elendil's daughter and the trade unions, Galadriel being abrasive and getting thrown in jail, etc.  

 

[JustHereForFood]

I don't know if it's me, but I really liked the first season and didn't really understand all of the complaints about pacing, but now I just can't get invested in this season. Watching it seems like a chore at this point and I think the main problem for me is juggling all of the plotlines and characters, so I guess I'm the one complaining about pacing now, lol. I didn't have time to rewatch season 1 so I probably forgot some things, but I remember I was at least invested in some storylines. I wonder if this is how GoT viewers who haven't read the books felt when they were jumping between different groups of characters and then leaving them out for some episodes. It seems so chaotic. 

This episode, I really (finally!) liked the plot in Numenor, I got tear-eyed when the soldiers showed support for Elendil, he really should have used that to his advantage and maybe if Kemen didn't attack them in the equivalent of a church, he eventually would. The death of that soldier who was friend with his son was heartbreaking. I think this is what this season is lacking for me, some emotional connections between characters. Last season, I was all into the friendship between Elrond and Durin, this season we get none of that and there doesn't seem to be anything to compensate for it.

And there is way too much time, IMO, spent on Sauron and Celebrimbor. I get it, the show is about the rings, but do we need to see the same scene over and over? Yes, Sauron manipulates Celebrimbor into making more rings, we get it, we (or at least I) don't need to see endless scenes of it. Give the time to storylines that need more development.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that that the ring making the Hobbits invisible was because it it supposed to enhance someone's natural abilities into supernatural levels or something like that. It was said that the Hobbits are naturally good at hiding and not being noticed, so I thought that's why the ring makes them invisible. Not that it's power is to make anybody wearing it invisible. Same with Gil-Galad, I assumed that the ring giving him visions of future probably means that he already had some skills in predicting the future that the ring just enhanced.