S02.E07: The Red Sowing

[proserpina65]

I have to say, I thought this episode dragged.  The beginning with Harrenhal was good and the first really interesting thing to happen there.  The sowing was gripping.  And the end with Aemond taking off after the new dragon only to discover it was heading for Dragonstone was great.  But the rest?  There was a good bit of filler.

I don't care about Alicent's sojourn in the Kings Wood.  Her role should've been really dialed back this season in favor of her sons.  She stopped being a main character when Aegon was crowned.   Nothing against Olivia Cooke, who has been fantastic in the role, but the war isn't between Alicent and Rhaenyra and her part in it is pretty minimal.

Nothing they've done with Rhaena had made me believe she has the boldness or the intelligence to claim a wild dragon.

Most of the sections in Dragonstone were dull, except for the sowing.  The meeting between Rhaenyra and Addam was meh at best.  And she was a complete bitch to the poor Targaryen bastards who came to Dragonstone at her invitation.  I mean, having her guards try to keep them from running away when Vermithor decided he wanted no part of getting a new rider?  That's pretty fucking low.  Did she even bother to explain that the most likely outcome of training to claim him was horrible death?

There was nowhere near enough of Aemond for my tastes, although I did finally get an answer to "Where does Vhagar sleep?".  Plus, Ewan got to ride a horse.  Hopefully that was a real one and not the pickup truck-based contraption they used for Fabien's scenes; Ewan knows how to handle himself on a horse after three seasons of The Last Kingdom.  (Now if only they'd show some of Aemond's skill with a sword - Ewan's about the most experienced actor in the cast when it comes to stage/film combat.)  And he was far more merciful to those imbecilic lickspittles than I would have been.

[bluvelvet]

6 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Wow. THAT was a look, Rhaenyra.

For all the pissing and moaning about who should or shouldn't have a dragon, do these people not realize the matter was never in their hands to begin with? The dragons choose who their riders are. They always have. Any notion of control is an illusion.

Hence why Seasmoke almost ate Baela based on conversation from this episode even though he was her uncles dragon. The Dragons choose for all we know Vermithor could’ve remained riderless if he never came across Hugh. 
 

Also wanted to add that I loved Rhaenyra’s red outfit. 

Edited July 29 by bluvelvet

[bluvelvet]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it was Larys' vengeance to keep information from Aemond.  

That.

Daemon simply lacks strategical thinking. His actions backfired. 

I believed she wanted to drown herself. But it seems to be some kind of purification rite.

 

I understood that Addam was also Gorlys' bastard like his brother. He even said it's not about the hair, meaning evidently their dark skin.

Gorlys' words that his family members weren't drangonriders. Well, maybe it's only through Rhaebys their daughter Laena became one and thus also their granddaughter Baela.

Maybe there was Thargaryen blood in Addam's mother? Adam took on her whereas his brother took on Gorlys as a shipbuilder and sailor.   

 

 

I agree, Larys holding on to that information was just payback. Aemond really screwed the pooch embarrassing Larys. That is not a man you want on your bad side, he’s just too underhanded.  I did like that Aegon is up and trying. The poor Grand Maester is just trying to mind his business and keeps getting pulled into these shenanigans. 
 

I think that Corly has Targaryen blood in his ancestry due to prior intermarriages between the two families. He certainly has more than poor Ser Darrklyn. I’m of the opinion that you really only need Valyrian blood to have the potential to claim a dragon since Targs weren’t the only dragon riders in old Valyria. Maybe if the Velaryon’s tried they could’ve rode dragons but they just were salt and sea. 
 

Btw I don’t recall any Velaryon’s in the GOT series. 

Edited July 29 by bluvelvet

[paigow]

25 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And he was far more merciful to those imbecilic lickspittles than I would have been.

Hanging was not a suitable punishment for incompetence vs treason.

[baldryanr]

20 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Also wanted to add that I loved Rhaenyra’s red outfit.

Speaking of red, I find it hilarious that Mysaria's spy insists on running around King's Landing in a bright red cloak that no one else would wear.  Maybe it's deliberate - no spy would be stupid enough to do that!

29 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And he was far more merciful to those imbecilic lickspittles than I would have been.

A lifetime assignment of freezing at Wall with no chance of enjoying the rich person privileges you're used to?  I'm not so sure that's more merciful than getting executed on the spot.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I assume Aemon being forced to kill Ser Willem was supposed to be a punishment since it is such a dishonorable act, but he seems like the type that will get over it quickly.  He didn’t seem to lose much sleep (except for the nightmares) when they were raping and murdering women and children on his orders.

I suppose that the point was to publicly humilate Daemon by showing him and the lords that he wasn't the boss.    

41 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Jace may have come across like an elitist snob, but he's right to be concerned about all of these bastards claiming dragons that are either equal to or stronger than the other Black dragons.  Even if they didn't have a choice, this could easily backfire when the power starts going to their heads.

Terms like "an elitist snob can't applied to this alt-world that is *based* on unequality.

In real history, it's hardly no coincidence that the society was unequal when the infantry was no match to the knights. Dragons make the struggle even more unequal.

"Bastards" could have a chance, but I doubt if they succeed as they should (1) be united and (2) have a belief that they are as good as their betters.

Addam offered his service to Rhaenyra for free which was noble. But after seeing how she treated "bastards" I wouldn't trust in her. He is to her only a tool who can casted aside when he is no longer needed.    

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I did like that Aegon is up and trying.

Isn't it strange that Alicent isn't tending her son?

(1) Has she had enough after tending Viserys for years (2) can't bear to see her son badly damaged (3) had given up to get power again for good (4) simply needs rest (5) don't care about him at all? 

[Cristofle]

A cool episode for dragon fans, since we got a good look at Syrax, Seasmoke, Vermithor, Silverwing, and Vhagar all in one episode. Although Vermithor burning and eating a bunch of people was hard to watch :/ I was thinking one by one may have resulted in a lot less bloodshed, BUT, it may have also compelled them all to run for their lives the first time Vermithor burned someone alive. 

Also, the shot of Emma/Rhaenyra turning around with Vermithor behind her was epic.

Interesting to see a bit of dragon personality emerge, as Vermithor (who is brutal and vicious) favored the man brave enough to stand there and yell in his face, while Silverwing took the pathetic-looking dude on the ground under her wing in a more maternal and cute way, heh. NGL, it perhaps was not the smartest idea, but I LOLed so hard at Ulf's "LOOK AT ME NOW BITCHES" victory ride over KL.

Daemon has been shown to at least be capable of being pragmatic before, so it was nice to see a little of that emerge through the ego acid trip he's been on, grudgingly respecting lil Oscar Tully's move to verbally throw him under the bus because it was more effective than lavishing him with praise. 

Like others, I think Jace had a decent point in a sense, BUT, allowing his insecurity to display as bratty elitism wasn't the best look he's ever worn. And I don't know what he thinks Rhaenyra should do in this particular situation. They need more dragons to have a chance of being successful against Vhagar. Does he really expect her to get wiped out just to protect him from being seen as a bastard easily replaced by another bastard? And the end of the episode proved her point - Aemond furiously chased after Silverwing, but when he realized he'd be facing not just Silverwing, but also Vermithor, Syrax, and Seasmoke, he turned around immediately.

Also, a good way to show how ultimately ineffective Aemond is as a leader - he's so unlikable and so bad at gaining allies that he ended up missing crucial information until it was too late, that Rhaenyra was finding riders for the riderless dragons. He did have the sense the Good Lord gave him not to face a whole bunch of dragons at once, though. LOL. 

Tom was WAY too effective in the scene where Aegon tries to get walk. ACCCK. I could barely watch. 

So now Alicent is going to wander through the woods? ...Okay. 

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, peridot said:

I wondered why Aemond turned Vhagar around at the end.  How did he see the dragons, though?  He looked very far away from Dragonstone.

I think he was just trying to see where this new dragon was from and when he saw for sure where it was heading, he noped right out of there.

10 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

You just know Syrax and Seasmoke were talking lol. I really enjoyed this episode because it had more dragons. Also loved how they each sounded different. 

I didn't particularly enjoy the episode as a whole, but I loved the dragons and how very different they are in appearance and sound.  Dany's dragons were basically just three copies of the same one except for size and color, so it's been great to see the wide range of dragon variation.

10 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Did anyone else think that Ulf was defecting at the end?

Nah, I figured he was just running for his life.  He seemed one of the few dragon seeds who had any clue in the beginning that this was not going to end well for most of them.  Him and Hugh's wife.

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I know Rhaenyra warned them all going in, but that still was some "Some of you will die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make!" leadership skills right there! 

Yep, she was far more concerned when she offered the chance to one of her knights than when dealing with any of what she surely considered peasants.

She's quite deluded about having more dragons ending the war quickly, though.

10 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Jace could, at the very least, claim Targaryen heritage because he's a dragonrider - something that, up to until now, has been exclusive to Targaryens. Now, that can fuel rumors that no only is he a bastard, he may not even be a Targaryen.

No one has questioned Jace being a Targaryen because his mother is one.  But yeah, if just any old Targaryen bastard can claim a dragon, then he's not so special after all and I think his insecurities about being a bastard are getting to him.

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Huh. So for all of Aemond's orders to keep smallfolk in the Red Keep, Alicent and a cadre of Targaryen bastards was able to waltz outside the gates?

The guards seem pretty crap at their job.  Although in Alicent's case, what guard is going to deny passage to the Dowager Queen?

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Rhaena, sis. I get that you really want to have your own dragon, but to leave Joffrey, Aegon III(?), and Viserys II to go to Penthos without you? I hope there were others to care for them besides you.

Was Joffrey with them?  I didn't notice, but I'm as done with Rhaena as Lady Arryn is, so I wasn't paying that much attention.

9 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I think it would have been the prevailing thought of "What if this is an ambush?" or wondering if he was being led away from KL for an attack to happen there. Aemond didn't see the other dragons; he saw this rogue dragon heading back to Dragonstone, where all the other dragons are. This is the issue with having the Prince Regent also be the only dragonrider defense for KL.  His youngest brother's dragon has just taken to wing AND they are in Oldtown. KL's only weapon is Vhagar, so it would be like Aegon-level foolishness to get into a scrap with multiple dragons without any backup. 

This.

9 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

That council dude who was talking to Larry’s was like - my sister‘s cousin’s husbands next door neighbors’ neighbor friends mother said that there’s a new rider. 😆 

Yeah, I don't blame Larys for not wanting to go to Aemond with that, although someone should have.

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Aemond saw a dragon that he didn't recognize with a rider flying over King's landing. He wanted to find out who they were/belonged to. The moment he saw them approaching Dragon Stone, he had his question answered. I doubt he knew anything about the three dragons on the ground, with Rhaenyra standing out in the open. Otherwise, he would've ended the war right then and there.

This is what I thought as well.  "Where'd this fucking dragon come from?  Oh, there, time to turn back."

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jace's problem arises when his legitimacy is called into question, which could ignite a second Dance of the Dragons, especially because the queen has two other heirs who aren't women or illegitimate.

Aegon the baby and Viserys are technically illegitimate, though, since Laenor was still alive when Rhaenyra married Daemon.  Of course, nobody by Rhaenyra and Daemon know that.

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it was Larys' vengeance to keep information from Aemond.  

Yep.

 

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

Vhagar is ugly. 

Hey now, MeeMaw is beautiful!  (Yeah, she's ugly, but maybe in her youth?)

 

42 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I did like that Aegon is up and trying.

I was enjoying Aegon being in the agonizing pain he so fully deserves.

[proserpina65]

45 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I think that Corly has Targaryen blood in his ancestry due to prior intermarriages between the two families.

A quick look at the WIKI doesn't show any Targaryen ancestors for Corlys' branch of the Velaryon family, but it doesn't really go back much farther than the Conquest, so there could've been some in the centuries prior to Aegon's rule.  Which would make it weaker than Steffon Darklyn's Targaryen heritage.  I think Addam's mother must've had the Tarygaryen blood.

45 minutes ago, paigow said:

Hanging was not a suitable punishment for incompetence vs treason.

I would've thought Aemond would behead them himself.  He doesn't seem tolerant of incompetence or like he would really care about suitable punishments.  They did almost get his mother and sister killed.  But I'm glad he showed some restraint.

43 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

A lifetime assignment of freezing at Wall with no chance of enjoying the rich person privileges you're used to?  I'm not so sure that's more merciful than getting executed on the spot.

That's true.  I didn't think of it that way.

44 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Addam offered his service to Rhaenyra for free which was noble. But after seeing how she treated "bastards" I wouldn't trust in her. He is to her only a tool who can casted aside when he is no longer needed.    

Yea, the optics of the sowing was terrible for Rhaenyra, imo.

18 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Aemond furiously chased after Silverwing, but when he realized he'd be facing not just Silverwing, but also Vermithor, Syrax, and Seasmoke, he turned around immediately.

I doubt he could see the other dragons at all, not unless that sapphire gives extra super vision through the eye patch.  I think he turned around once he verified where the strange dragon had come from and he wasn't interested in taking on it and the other dragons he already knew about (Syrax, Vermax and Moondancer).

21 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

So now Alicent is going to wander through the woods? ...Okay. 

Maybe she'll get lost and we won't have to see her again for awhile.  (Again, nothing against the fantastic actress, but seriously, Alicent should not be a focus during the war.)

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Aemond saw a dragon that he didn't recognize with a rider flying over King's landing. He wanted to find out who they were/belonged to.

If I’m remembering correctly, on the “Inside the Episode”, they mentioned that Aemond’s intent was killing Silverwing.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I would've thought Aemond would behead them himself.

Also the Kingsguard might have walked out- like the Dragon Zoo Keepers did - if doing your job badly, but not totally failing is grounds for execution...

[magdalene]

What is going to stop that hapless opportunist Ulf from betraying Rhaenyra at some point? The grass is always greener, blah,blah,blah. And while Hugh has heroic impulses his history gives him even more reason.

[proserpina65]

26 minutes ago, paigow said:

Also the Kingsguard might have walked out- like the Dragon Zoo Keepers did - if doing your job badly, but not totally failing is grounds for execution...

That is true.  It was just a bit more restraint than I expected from Aemond.

[bluvelvet]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

If I’m remembering correctly, on the “Inside the Episode”, they mentioned that Aemond’s intent was killing Silverwing.

I need to watch that. I’m surprised that Aemond is so quick to kill other dragons given his respect for Targaryen history and traditions. I get that this is war but maybe see if this was a potential ally before killing.

Vhagar honestly just wants to enjoy her retirement. This war is messing with her plan lol. 

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

No one has questioned Jace being a Targaryen because his mother is one.  But yeah, if just any old Targaryen bastard can claim a dragon, then he's not so special after all and I think his insecurities about being a bastard are getting to him.

No, but my thinking is that Addam, not being of Targaryen descent as far as anyone knows, makes it seem like anyone beyond Targaryens can claim dragons. I'm talking beyond any Targaryen bastards, considering that Jace's temper tantrum is before any mention of calling the Targ bastards. At this point in the episode, it's only Addam that has claimed a dragon.

I was thinking that in Jace's mind, it's another strike against him. Everyone pretty much perceives Jace to be a bastard even though he had a lawful father that proudly claimed him as a legitimate son. I took Jace's saying "I don't have any Targaryen features", or something like that, as saying his claim as a prominent Targaryen (and anything that comes along with it) is proven by him being a dragonrider... and now that could be in doubt because someone who is seemingly not of Targaryen descent has now claimed a dragon, and so that's not even unique to Targaryens anymore.

I hope this is making sense. I feel like it doesn't. 😂

Edited July 29 by AntFTW

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

 

Most of the sections in Dragonstone were dull, except for the sowing.  The meeting between Rhaenyra and Addam was meh at best.  And she was a complete bitch to the poor Targaryen bastards who came to Dragonstone at her invitation.  I mean, having her guards try to keep them from running away when Vermithor decided he wanted no part of getting a new rider?  That's pretty fucking low.  Did she even bother to explain that the most likely outcome of training to claim him was horrible death?

 

I kind of like that they gave some complexity to older Rhaenyra. She was becoming a bore with all her white-knighting. Now that she's desperate to win a war, hopefully we'll get more of things like this happening. But yea morale wise, our good queen definitely got in the dirt

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Vhagar honestly just wants to enjoy her retirement. This war is messing with her plan lol. 

She just wants to lay on a beach drinking pina coladas.

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

No, but my thinking is that Addam, not being of Targaryen descent as far as anyone knows, makes it seem like anyone beyond Targaryens can claim dragons. I'm talking beyond any Targaryen bastards, considering that Jace's temper tantrum is before any mention of calling the Targ bastards. At this point in the episode, it's only Addam that has claimed a dragon.

I had forgotten that the scene in question was before anyone but Addam had claimed a dragon.  So his issue makes complete sense at that point.

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Vhagar honestly just wants to enjoy her retirement. This war is messing with her plan lol.

She's so jealous of Alicent right now. 😭

[Jack Shaftoe]

I keep wondering if the writers are trying to depict Rhaenyra, Daemon, Viserys and well, everybody of importance really, as terrible leaders on purpose or they are just bad at writing politics and especially political intrigue. I am leaning towards the latter option because they still have Rhaenyra speechifying about bloodless victories and no one gainsaying her. And that was right when her plan for new dragonriders was basically "Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make". And Mysaria had to literally remind her that bastards exist and could be dragonriders - after she had already talked to Addam who was clearly no nobleman!

Daemon now allows every rando to talk shit to him and blackmail him into killing the only ally he managed to gain. It's like all River lords had read the script and knew what would happen because that was a really foolish risk they were taking - going to pay homage to Oscar at Harrenhal where someone known as basically a madman could have killed them for their temerity at any time. And I keep rolling my eyes at the endless complaints about brutality - it's Westeros, not Disneyland. Brutal punishments are a part of life and generally no one gives a fuck about collateral damage except to complain about lost tax base maybe. There should have been more than a few lords willing to be on Daemon's side rather than on the side of some untried liege lord whom they hadn't even sworn fealty to yet.

The dragon keepers mouthing off Rhaenyra was another WTF moment. You just don't do that in a freaking feudal society, if you want your head to stay attached to your shoulders. If the queen wants dragon breakfast riders who don't speak Valiryan, you say "Yes, mah qween".

The spy in the bright red cloak is still ridiculous, maybe next time she should try literally yelling "Aemond has a small cock and a mommy fetish!" in the crowded streets because clearly anything goes in this city.

Edited July 29 by Jack Shaftoe

[bluvelvet]

So from what I’m reading Hugh’s mother was a full blooded Targ, Saera Targaryen who was the disgraced daughter of King Jaehaerys and his sister wife Alyssane. Or at least speculated to be Saera.   She ended up in a pleasure house. At least that’s what I read online. So Hugh is 1/2 Targ not 1/4 like I thought. I assumed his mother was a bastard also. So he’s Daemon and Viserys’s cousin then ?? I really need to look at that family tree lol  

Ulf is Baelon’s son based on what has been said so he’s also half Targ. 
 

Edited July 29 by bluvelvet

[proserpina65]

Just now, Jack Shaftoe said:

I keep wondering if the writers are trying to depict Rhaenyra, Daemon, Viserys and well, everybody of importance really, as terrible leaders on purpose

I absolutely think it's on purpose.

2 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And Mysaria had to literally remind her that bastards exist and could be dragonriders - after she had already talked to Addam who was clearly no nobleman!

I think she doesn't understand at all why Seasmoke would choose Addam.  I don't believe she knows anything about his possibly having Targaryen heritage at all.

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Daemon now allows every rando to talk shit to him and blackmail him into killing the only ally he managed to gain.

This is because Daemon is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is and he clearly had no preparation for the role of king while he was heir, which lines up with Viserys' incompetence concerning his heirs.  He stupidly thought he could tell Willem Blackwood not to implicate the Crown in his war crimes and Blackwood would obey because Daemon said so.  He thinks all he has to do is say "I have a dragon" and people will fall into line.  The Brackens completely proved him wrong.  He basically relies on privilege and brute force.

7 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

There should have been more than a few lords willing to be on Daemon's side rather than on the side of some untried liege lord whom they hadn't even sworn fealty to yet.

He'd already alienated them all.

8 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The dragon keepers mouthing off Rhaenyra was another WTF moment. You just don't do that in a freaking feudal society, if you want your head to stay attached to your shoulders. If the queen wants dragon breakfast riders who don't speak Valiryan, you say "Yes, mah qween".

They clearly care far more about the ancient tradition of their craft and more about the actual dragons than she does.  And they have far more respect for the creatures.  Them walking out on her was completely in character for someone like that.  They know how difficult it is to control the dragons and  to teach riders and she needs them more than they need her.

[iMonrey]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jace's problem arises when his legitimacy is called into question, which could ignite a second Dance of the Dragons, especially because the queen has two other heirs who aren't women or illegitimate.

If you want to get technical about it, both of Rhaenyra's sons with Daemon are also illegitimate, because her first husband is (was) still alive, so her marriage to Daemon is invalid. But I take your point, since nobody else knows that.

Being Team Dragon, this was my favorite episode of the season. Seeing Ulf joyriding over Kings Landing gave the show a moment of levity it sorely lacks. 

I do worry about Ulf, though. He seems like he'll either be a turncoat, a screw-up, or the first to die in battle.

Vermithor: nomnomnomnomnomnom.

[Oscirus]

42 minutes ago, magdalene said:

What is going to stop that hapless opportunist Ulf from betraying Rhaenyra at some point? The grass is always greener, blah,blah,blah. And while Hugh has heroic impulses his history gives him even more reason.

 

 

 

Not a damn thing. She gave mercenaries control over nukes. I get the feeling this won't turn out well for her.

Other thoughts:

Allyn talking about being of sea and salt? Subtle HOTD writers, really subtle. Instead of showing us he's Corlys's heir like they've been doing the past fw weeks, why not just have Allyn use the same phrase Baela did to ensure that we understood this was his intention?

 I appreciated that all four dragons that gained riders on this show gained them in different ways to highlight the differences in attitudes of the dragons.

 

If that was an ambush plan by Rhaenyra at the end without her being on her dragon, she's an idiot. That scene could've really turned out badly if Aemond was a crazy as everybody thinks he is. I believe Ulf lacks experience, so Silverwing basically went wherever she wanted to go.

Edited July 29 by Oscirus

[baldryanr]

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I keep wondering if the writers are trying to depict Rhaenyra, Daemon, Viserys and well, everybody of importance really, as terrible leaders on purpose or they are just bad at writing politics and especially political intrigue.

Rhaeynyra really does suck at handling the political stuff.  She might dislike her council (and the feeling is likely mutual), but keeping them AND especially Corlys in the dark is beyond stupid.  She's also dismissive of Jace (her heir!!!), someone who has accomplished quite a bit in the past couple of months.  She's complained about Viserys not prepping her, but she's doing the exact same thing with him.

What's going to be worse is her belief that divine right has chosen her for this moment.  That means any amount of collateral damage is OK because hey, gotta win for the greater good.

23 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And I keep rolling my eyes at the endless complaints about brutality - it's Westeros, not Disneyland. Brutal punishments are a part of life and generally no one gives a fuck about collateral damage except to complain about lost tax base maybe.

You do realize there are degrees, right?  These aren't barbarians, there are certain lines that aren't supposed to be crossed.  One Great House rules the region to ensure the lesser houses can't attack each other on a whim and go pillaging.

Edited July 29 by baldryanr

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If you want to get technical about it, both of Rhaenyra's sons with Daemon are also illegitimate, because her first husband is (was) still alive, so her marriage to Daemon is invalid. But I take your point, since nobody else knows that.

 

 

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Aegon the baby and Viserys are technically illegitimate, though, since Laenor was still alive when Rhaenyra married Daemon.  Of course, nobody by Rhaenyra and Daemon know that.

 

The writers really screwed up by pandering to the audience by not killing Laenor, unless Aegon's daughter takes over which lol, they have now guaranteed that the next king after Aegon/Rhaenyra is going to be a bastard.

[AntFTW]

I thought about when Ser Darklyn tried to claim Seasmoke and the dragonkeeper said "don't show any fear", and then we get to the Targaryen bastards. Vermithor spits a little bit of fire and they all flee. When Hugh claims Vermithor, Hugh is standing his ground and not showing any fear.

Also, I can't imagine what feeling of loyalty would be left for Rhaenyra after she was willing to let me die and sacrifice others for her cause... and then I have to turn around and risk my life further by fighting for her.

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

When Hugh claims Vermithor, Hugh is standing his ground and not showing any fear.

He imagined Vermithor as a harmless peasant carrying a bag of carrots... 

[Jack Shaftoe]

48 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

He'd already alienated them all.

Yes, that's what we are supposed to think but considering they were plenty of powerful nobles willing to fight on Tywin's side despite his far longer list of ordered atrocities this care for the little man and the rules of war seems... a little implausible. And in any event, these lords, despite this cute little Tully power play, are supposedly willing to fight on Daemon's side anyway, so he really should have called them on their "desecration" outrage and pointed out that the other side is just as brutal, so they should cut the crap. All he did was show how willing he is to throw his minions under the bus which is exactly what a vassal does not want to hear from the higher-ups.

Quote

These aren't barbarians, there are certain lines that aren't supposed to be crossed.  One Great House rules the region to ensure the lesser houses can't attack each other on a whim and go pillaging.

Punishing traitors is very much a line that is supposed to be crossed. And yes, a lot of innocent people also suffered but that's par for the course for (pseudo) medieval warfare, not some unheard of atrocity the show pretends it is. if the enemy is hiding in a castle, you go and burn his villages, that's medieval warfare 101. More importantly, If the River lords really consider these actions to be beyond the pale they shouldn't be willing to support Rhaenyra anyway because they haven't read the script and for all they know she is very much in support of Daemon's brutal tactics. Also, for all they know Daemon could have just had his dragon burn them all and tried again with their heirs which made their cockiness look rather suicidal.

33 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, I can't imagine what feeling of loyalty would be left for Rhaenyra after she was willing to let me die and sacrifice others for her cause... and then I have to turn around and risk my life further by fighting for her.

I can't either but the show seems to be leaning hard on the idea that the smallfolk inexplicably love Rhaenyra (or Rhaenys the mass murderer), so I fully expect the new dragonriders to be firmly on herside.

[jeansheridan]

14 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Oscar Tully for baddest badass of them all. 

Seriously,  this kid! He cornered Daemon into doing the "right" thing. I hope Daemon appreciates his cleverness. Oscar honored his oath and spoke truth to power. And negotiated a moment of justice. In  like 10 minutes! Love that kid.

[proserpina65]

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yes, that's what we are supposed to think but considering they were plenty of powerful nobles willing to fight on Tywin's side

Tywin was a much more skilled politician than Daemon and people feared him much more than they do Daemon.  All Daemon has in his arsenal of threats is "I'll have my dragon burn you" and while that's scary, it has nothing on what Tywin could threaten people with.  People feared and respected him.  No one respects Daemon, not even Rhaenyra.

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Tywin was a much more skilled politician than Daemon and people feared him much more than they do Daemon.  All Daemon has in his arsenal of threats is "I'll have my dragon burn you" and while that's scary, it has nothing on what Tywin could threaten people with.  People feared and respected him.  No one respects Daemon, not even Rhaenyra.

I think Tywin used a stick and carrot approach in his tactics. People feared him, but I think he also rewarded loyalty or least operated in a quid pro quo style with people that may have not liked him but were willing to work with him.

Daemon is all stick and no carrot. I'm not sure if the adage exist in Westeros that you "catch more bees with honey than vinegar." Daemon never offers any honey.

[sistermagpie]

59 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, I can't imagine what feeling of loyalty would be left for Rhaenyra after she was willing to let me die and sacrifice others for her cause... and then I have to turn around and risk my life further by fighting for her.

Wouldn't people expect that from any ruler? 

Like, with the dragon feast, I don't feel like people would really hold it against her. To quote someone who quoted something I wish I'd quoted first, "Please. They bought their tickets. They know what they were getting into."

She gave them a fairy tale chance to claim a dragon based on their bloodline and a lot of them were willing to be tested knowing the dragon was the danger. And she didn't lie--two of them did claim dragons. It's sort of the opposite of the optics with Melys. Vermithor came across like a hungry god.

 

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I didn't particularly enjoy the episode as a whole, but I loved the dragons and how very different they are in appearance and sound.  Dany's dragons were basically just three copies of the same one except for size and color, so it's been great to see the wide range of dragon variation.

Totally agree. I was never into the dragons in GoT, but these guys are genuinely beautiful and terrifying and often seem more like full characters than the people.

Edited July 29 by sistermagpie

[Jack Shaftoe]

16 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Tywin was a much more skilled politician than Daemon and people feared him much more than they do Daemon. 

Well, yeah, Daemon is very much a fool but that's part of the reason why people should be scared of him. A fool with well known loose cannon tendencies should be scarier than someone who is just as brutal but in a more rational way. You don't need political skills in order to be feared. It just feels odd how not scared these lords were of the guy they claimed to be convinced was basically a higher-ranked Gregor Clegane. With an WMD at his disposal.

Quote

Like, with the dragon feast, I don't feel like people would really hold it against her. To quote someone who quoted something I wish I'd quoted first, "Please. They bought their tickets. They know what they were getting into."

There was no need whatsoever to test all of them at the same time, basically guaranteeing collateral damage should any of them be considered unworthy by the dragons.

Edited July 29 by Jack Shaftoe

[Mannahatta]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, these are some picky fucking dragons, huh?  And if you don't live up to their standards or what they want, you really get burnt or eaten!  

Seriously. That was one helluva job interview.

I was about to give up on this show as I found the ratio of unlikable characters to be far higher than the likable ones. (Plus I'm bad at names.) But I've been loving these last two episodes with its emphasis on small folk and dragons. And the acting is superb.

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Like, with the dragon feast, I don't feel like people would really hold it against her. To quote someone who quoted something I wish I'd quoted first, "Please. They bought their tickets. They know what they were getting into."

Except... I don't think they really knew until they got there.

It seems to me they had no idea what claiming a dragon would entail until it was too late.

[proserpina65]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She gave them a fairy tale chance to claim a dragon based on their bloodline and a lot of them were willing to be tested knowing the dragon was the danger.

She really undersold the danger.  I don't think any of them expect the shitshow it became and they completely did not expect her guards to try preventing their escape.

27 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You don't need political skills in order to be feared.

You do to build alliances, though.  Daemon couldn't build an alliance if his life depended on it.  Because when all you've got is "Follow me or I'll have my dragon burn you", and you know that following through on the threat will leave you with no army, you're not going to do it and therefore people are not going to fear you.  Once he let the Brackens go after their lord defied him, there was no chance that the other river lords were going to join him on their own.

 

27 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Except... I don't think they really knew until they got there.

It seems to me they had no idea what claiming a dragon would entail until it was too late.

I don't think she really told them the truth about the likelihood of dying even then.

[AntFTW]

37 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You don't need political skills in order to be feared.

You need political skills for the people that don’t fear you.

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

41 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Except... I don't think they really knew until they got there.

It seems to me they had no idea what claiming a dragon would entail until it was too late.

 

12 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

She really undersold the danger.  I don't think any of them expect the shitshow it became and they completely did not expect her guards to try preventing their escape.

You do to build alliances, though.  Daemon couldn't build an alliance if his life depended on it.  Because when all you've got is "Follow me or I'll have my dragon burn you", and you know that following through on the threat will leave you with no army, you're not going to do it and therefore people are not going to fear you.  Once he let the Brackens go after their lord defied him, there was no chance that the other river lords were going to join him on their own.

 

I don't think she really told them the truth about the likelihood of dying even then.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

There was no need whatsoever to test all of them at the same time, basically guaranteeing collateral damage should any of them be considered unworthy by the dragons.

I think there was a reason to test them altogether and we saw it in the episode. Putting them in a terrifying position where they were facing the dragon attacking led to the dragons finding their riders in ways having people get roasted one by one in private would not. I thought that was the point. Terror was necessary.

As to whether they really knew, I don't think anybody can really know what it would be like until they were facing it, but there was no way for them to know that except through experience. They all knew dragons are gigantic with mouths full of teeth, that they breathe fire and eat people. They just didn't know the depth of terror of being attacked by one for real instead of just abstractly knowing they were gambling with their lives.

[paigow]

In poker terms Daemon is the short stack. Other players can bet big but he has to fold unless he actually has the nuts - i.e. best hand.

[iMonrey]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Allyn talking about being of sea and salt? Subtle HOTD writers, really subtle. Instead of showing us he's Corlys's heir like they've been doing the past few weeks, why not just have Allyn use the same phrase Baela did to ensure that we understood this was his intention?

For all we know that might very well be a common phrase among the sea-faring folk.

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Also, I can't imagine what feeling of loyalty would be left for Rhaenyra after she was willing to let me die and sacrifice others for her cause... and then I have to turn around and risk my life further by fighting for her.

Nobody forced these people to sign up for this. Word spread that Rhaenyra was offering up the chance to claim a dragon to any Targaryen bastards. If you're dumb/brave/desperate enough to try it, that's on you.

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It seems to me they had no idea what claiming a dragon would entail until it was too late.

Well, it's a dragon. A giant, fire-breathing dragon. You had to have had at least an inkling you might get roasted.

[proserpina65]

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Nobody forced these people to sign up for this. Word spread that Rhaenyra was offering up the chance to claim a dragon to any Targaryen bastards. If you're dumb/brave/desperate enough to try it, that's on you.

No, if someone is preying on people's desperation without giving them adequate warning of what probably will happen, that's on them, too.  Rhaenyra didn't give a shit that most of these bastards were going to die and didn't adequate prepare them precisely because they were lowborn.  Had they been members of even small houses, she'd have done more.  And she certainly wouldn't have had her guards blocking their only route of escape.

[Is Everyone Gone]

This episode was such a chore to watch. I'm getting tired of dragons burning hapless people to death.

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

You need political skills for the people that don’t fear you.

But at least some of the river lords should be fearing him because he is a loose canon with a WMD. Or maybe those who do fear him just didn't show up?

[Stardancer Supreme]

13 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Aemond saw a dragon that he didn't recognize with a rider flying over King's landing. He wanted to find out who they were/belonged to. The moment he saw them approaching Dragon Stone, he had his question answered. I doubt he knew anything about the three dragons on the ground, with Rhaenyra standing out in the open. Otherwise, he would've ended the war right then and there.

The fact that Hugh is Damon, and Viserys's nephew adds an interesting dynamic. His talk with his wife sets off all kinds of alarm bells. It feels like he's a mercenary and just got the second-biggest dragon in the war. Team Black should keep their eye on him. While I found the meet-cute between Ulf and his dragon charming, I can't say I fully trust him, either. 

This is just a reminder to all the writers that it's okay to exclude Alicent if there's nothing for her in the episode. 

So at this point, Larys is just being sneaky, just to be sneaky. There is legit no reason to withhold the news of a new dragon having a rider from Aemond other than to be a dick. As a matter of fact, I would argue that Aemond not having this information hurts him. The second half of his plan where he's working to get Aegon better, is an actual good plan. 

It's problematic for Rhaenyra to rely on Myseria as much as she does.

Larys isn't being sneaky; he just don't eff with Aemond no more. I'm sure Larys won't be whispering anything to the Prince Regent/Boss of Vhagar.

It's problematic for Rhaenyra to be in a romantic relationship with someone she relies heavily on.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Nothing they've done with Rhaena had made me believe she has the boldness or the intelligence to claim a wild dragon.

But from what we've shown so far, what is required to claim a dragon is not always boldness or intelligence. Indeed, sometimes/most times it's the dragon that claims the rider. Seasmoke claimed Addam, not the other way around. And Silverwing claimed Ulf not because Ulf was the least bit bold or bright...he even seemed to step on one of her eggs.

23 hours ago, Oscirus said:

People were calling Aemond foolish for making a deal with pirates to break the blockade; Rhaenyra is trusting legit strangers with nuclear weapons, that's worse. 

Also, Jace is right, just not in the way he thinks. Much like parading that dragon's head through the streets, having bastards riding dragons kinda removes the aura of the targs riding them. 

Yes, I know I was advocating for Rhae to use those dragons well, but Jace made me think about it. 

I was calling Aemond foolish for considering making a deal with pirates because a) pirates in general are not trustworthy folk b) these particular pirates are, as the council members pointed out, are likely to backstab and be a difficult problem even if they accomplish their task but most importantly c) Aemond has a ready and available alternative to turning to the pirates -- hopping on Vhagar and burninating the heck out of the blockade either as a one time thing or in a series of hit-and-run tactics.

I agree that Rhae isn't thinking through the potential consequences of giving the keys to dragons to randos. It would be fairly easy for a traitor to kill Rhae or defect to Team Black or fly the f--- off to Essos with their dragon or do any number of other things.

Rhae may or may not be insulated from the consequences of her decisions here by plot armor or luck or by the fact that the dragonriders only have the illusion of mastery over their dragons, and presumably these noob half-bloods have less mastery than the rest of Team Black.

I would imagine it's inevitable that either Hugh or Ulf turns traitor/rogue.

[I listened to the audiobook ages ago and honestly can't remember what may have happened in it vis a vis that point, plus it is possible that the HOTD writers go in a different direction. Also it should be pointed out that the book was replete with its conceit of being a scholar's account that pulled from different historical sources, so it would often say "The sources differ as to this point. One person says X happened. But another says Y. A third says Z, then X."] 

But in any case, Rhae's stupidity here in trusting the Targaryen is more condonable than Aemond's for a few reasons (which of course doesn't necessarily make it right or not stupid).

First, there is nothing inherent in being a bastard or a poor person that makes someone untrustworthy the way that being a pirate is by definition.

Second and most importantly, Rhae does not have other viable and obvious options to achieve her goals of a) retaining her crown and b) minimizing bloodshed. She might be naive in thinking that Team Green will surrender once they know the dragon score is 7 (Syrax, Caraxes, Vermax, Moondancer, Seasmoke, Verimthor, and Silverwing)  to 4  (or more like 1.6 since Sunfyre is dead/down, Daerion's dragon has just taken wing as of this episode, and Dreamfyre is unlikely to be a battle asset) in favor of Team Black.  But she has no army and cannot hold territory without a dragon advantage. But even if that advantage doesn't result in a quick Team Black win (and I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say it won't) she's not stupid for thinking that it will, or at a minimum if it doesn't, they should be able to press that advantage to off Vhagar, the only truly battle-ready dragon Team Green has.

20 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So at this point, Larys is just being sneaky, just to be sneaky. There is legit no reason to withhold the news of a new dragon having a rider from Aemond other than to be a dick. As a matter of fact, I would argue that Aemond not having this information hurts him. The second half of his plan where he's working to get Aegon better, is an actual good plan. 

It's problematic for Rhaenyra to rely on Myseria as much as she does.

I wouldn't say Larys is being sneaky to be sneaky. I would say Larys is skeptical of the information and doesn't want to be seen as having a hand in spreading it. Consider: until this time the conventional wisdom was that only a high-born person of the Targaryen line could even conceivably tame a dragon. All those people have been accounted for pretty much and either have their dragons already, have failed miserably at taming dragons (Baela) or are too young to be out and about riding dragons. If I were Larys, I wouldn't want to be spreading a rumor that's the equivalent of "the earth is really flat" without something more substantial to prove it.

I don't know if Rhae is going to ultimately be betrayed by Myseria (this being the GOT universe, there's a good chance of it), but so far, every bit of advice Myseria has given was pretty successful. For now, I think the only way she will be getting screwed by Myseria is in the fun between-the-sheets way.

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Isn't it strange that Alicent isn't tending her son?

(1) Has she had enough after tending Viserys for years (2) can't bear to see her son badly damaged (3) had given up to get power again for good (4) simply needs rest (5) don't care about him at all? 

I don't know if Ali isn't tending to Aegon at all. It could be that she is tending to him off-screen.

It could be that she considers the praying she has been doing (for example, last episode when she had visited the sept) included prayers on Aegon's behalf and to be the best way of tending to Aegon.

It also could be, assuming for discussion's sake that she hasn't been tending to Aegon, that there's a difference in the nature of the injuries Aegon and Viserys suffered. Tending to Viserys meant keeping him company, giving him milk of the poppy and the like, things a layperson could do. Until this episode, Aegon was mostly out of consciousness and in critical condition and needing the grandmaester's personal involvement. There presumably would have been less for Ali to do to help with Aegon's recovery than there was with Viserys's.

Barring that, I think reading between the lines, Ali would have buggered off to the kingswood while Viserys was still alive as much as she could, but she had Otto and power forcing her to be present.

The thought had also crossed my mind that she was auditioning a replacement for Crispy. Going to the Kingswood with just him and none of her normal entourage and no other defenders, swimming in your undergarments, and staying indefinitely seems an awfully convenient sitch to turn a Whitecloak into a breaker of their celibacy oath.

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Daemon now allows every rando to talk shit to him and blackmail him into killing the only ally he managed to gain. It's like all River lords had read the script and knew what would happen because that was a really foolish risk they were taking - going to pay homage to Oscar at Harrenhal where someone known as basically a madman could have killed them for their temerity at any time. And I keep rolling my eyes at the endless complaints about brutality - it's Westeros, not Disneyland. Brutal punishments are a part of life and generally no one gives a fuck about collateral damage except to complain about lost tax base maybe. There should have been more than a few lords willing to be on Daemon's side rather than on the side of some untried liege lord whom they hadn't even sworn fealty to yet.

The dragon keepers mouthing off Rhaenyra was another WTF moment. You just don't do that in a freaking feudal society, if you want your head to stay attached to your shoulders. If the queen wants dragon breakfast riders who don't speak Valiryan, you say "Yes, mah qween".

Oscar and the Riverlords (whose new album is due to drop next Autumn, btw) aren't randos. They are pretty important people to the Team Black strategy of taking back King's Landing. You can't just burninate King's Landing without doing massive damage to both your future seat of power and to the smallfolk you hope to rule. So you need foot soldiers. The only ones aligned to Team Black are in the North and the Vale. The Vale's support has not yet seen them put soldiers on the march. Presumably, the Starks have called their banners because they're as good as their word. But to get to King's Landing, the Northern soldiers will have to go through the Riverlands. So getting the Riverlands on their side is crucial. Daemon has been exposed as harmless in the short term because he's not willing to just burn or otherwise kill lords of the lesser houses until he gets one to bend the knee. So coming to Harrenhal posed little risk for the Riverlords. As impulsive and crazy as Daemon might be, if he changed his mind and burninated the Riverlords, none of the heirs would follow him or Rhae, or at least, they could be trusted to backstab in favor of Team Green at the soonest opportunity. Indeed, such an unprovoked act would probably be spun by Team Green and lose Team Black the support of the Starks and the Vale. If Rhae permitted Daemon to commit such an atrocious act, or worse, can't keep him in line, how could anyone want her for queen?

Even for Westeros, brutality has limits. We have seen murdering babies is still considered vile. Killing kin, the same. And apparently the person who was Team Black exceeded them. Keep in mind: the land has been peaceful for centuries. So this is a Westeros that is largely a stranger to the atrocities that come with all-out war. 

The way the feudal system works is that they hypothetically owe allegiance both to the Crown and to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. So it's not really a question of "Do we back Oscar or do we back Rhae/Dae?" There's no question that they owe Oliver their allegiance. The question is: are they going to follow Oscar's decision as to which is the true ruler of Westeros or not? It would be conceivable for Oscar to have said, "I side with King Aegon because he's got a pee-pee" or "I side with King Aegon because he promised that I would marry his daughter when he comes of age" or "I side with King Aegon because Daemon is a dirtbag who caused atrocities to be committed by his minion and that's a foreshadowing of life under Queen Rhae" or "Imma pull a Frey and stay neutral" or a number of other things. 

Oscar managed to come to the best course: assert why the Riverlords should follow Rhae/Dae despite how distasteful Dae is and put Dae in his place. 

Also, even if it were a question of Oscar vs. Daemon, it seems you have answered why it would probably be better to side with the untested insider from the Riverlands who knows the local ways and abides by them than the known crazy outsider who has set in motion a number of atrocities and is just as likely to burn you to death or slice your head off with a Valaryian steel sword as he is to say hello to you. 

As to the dragon keepers, it should first be pointed out that the ways of Westeros don't necessarily correspond to real-world feudalism. These people think of dragons as near-gods and it could easily be considered a blasphemy to allow bastards and lowborns to try to claim them.

But I'm sure real world offers ample examples of when religious orders defied various wishes of monarchs and nobles. "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?" And yes, sometimes that is going to result in the troublesome priests being murdered. But that's not the fault of the dragon priests. We'll see if they have to pay for their disturbing lack of faith that these bastards could be dragon riders, if they come around to welcome their new dragonlord overlords, or if they will be even more pissed that they have been proven wrong. (More likely I would think that they are not going to be revisited, but what do I know?)

7 hours ago, paigow said:

In poker terms Daemon is the short stack. Other players can bet big but he has to fold unless he actually has the nuts - i.e. best hand.

I would quibble with your analogy. Daemon doesn't have a short stack. He's got a dragon, personal riches, etc. He's pretty much the chip leader in this situation. As much as he might want to, there's no reason for him to deploy his chips or to call when he knows a) his opponents have a 100 percent read on him and b) he has no read on his opponents.

Edited July 30 by Chicago Redshirt

[iMonrey]

29 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

No, if someone is preying on people's desperation without giving them adequate warning of what probably will happen, that's on them, too.  Rhaenyra didn't give a shit that most of these bastards were going to die and didn't adequate prepare them precisely because they were lowborn.  Had they been members of even small houses, she'd have done more.  And she certainly wouldn't have had her guards blocking their only route of escape.

Again . . . it's a dragon. In a world where there are dragons. None of these people should need to be warned they will probably die. You're telling people to walk up to a pile of dynamite on the off chance it won't explode. They all know what dragons are, right? I don't remember anyone telling them "Hey, no big deal, it's probably safe." 

I take your point about the guards blocking their escape but I have a hard time believing these people were tricked or otherwise misled. It's a goddam dragon.

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I agree that Rhae isn't thinking through the potential consequences of giving the keys to dragons to randos. It would be fairly easy for a traitor to kill Rhae or defect to Team Black or fly the f--- off to Essos with their dragon or do any number of other things.

She's definitely considered the consequences, she just doesn't think she has another other options at this point. It's either try this crazy thing, or just lose.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

She's definitely considered the consequences, she just doesn't think she has another other options at this point. It's either try this crazy thing, or just lose.

I agree that she probably thinks that she's out of other palatable options, as I said earlier.

But "definitely" is too strong as they haven't shown her considering or articulating the consequences of being back-dracrysed by an upstart dragonlord, defections, etc. All we saw on screen was her trying to mollify Jace over the notion that one of these bastards might challenge him or otherwise undermine his legitimacy as an heir after Rhae dies. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

No, but my thinking is that Addam, not being of Targaryen descent as far as anyone knows, makes it seem like anyone beyond Targaryens can claim dragons. I'm talking beyond any Targaryen bastards, considering that Jace's temper tantrum is before any mention of calling the Targ bastards. At this point in the episode, it's only Addam that has claimed a dragon.

I was thinking that in Jace's mind, it's another strike against him. Everyone pretty much perceives Jace to be a bastard even though he has a lawful father that proudly claimed him as a legitimate son. I took Jace's saying "I don't have any Targaryen features", or something like that, as saying his claim as a prominent Targaryen (and anything that comes along with it) is proven by him being a dragonrider... and now that could be in doubt because someone who is seemingly not of Targaryen descent has now claimed a dragon, and so that's not even unique to Targaryens anymore.

I hope this is making sense. I feel like it doesn't. 😂

It makes sense. Jacerys doesn't know that Addam is tied to Corlys, so he doesn't see this person as having any Targaryen heritage, even though the male Targaryens have been littering Westeros with their illegitimate progeny. Even if we never hear of or see Alyn and Addam's mother, she could very well have been of Targaryen heritage herself. I'm sure that Corlys has some Targaryen heritage as well.  It just smacks of racial profiling...

[Jack Shaftoe]

18 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As impulsive and crazy as Daemon might be, if he changed his mind and burninated the Riverlords, none of the heirs would follow him or Rhae, or at least, they could be trusted to backstab Team Green at the soonest opportunity. Indeed, such an unprovoked act would probably be spun by Team Green and lose Team Black the support of the Starks and the Vale.

Unprovoked? Killing traitors is very much within the purview of feudal lords. Of course, everyone is a traitor to somebody in civil war but that's exactly why it's easier to get away with all sorts of atrocities once such a war has broken out. The Greens use the "Bend the knee or die" method, albeit without dragons and no one thinks that this is beyond the pale. If Daemon had burned "just" a few, chances are the rest would have bent the knee anyway because they were going for a power play and weren't some Green fanatics daring him to kill them. Of course, this would have required Daemon to have the first clue about politics or reading people... :)

And why are the river lords more trustworthy now when they have just proven that they enjoy disobeying their king (consort) and blackmailing him to do stuff? For all Daemon knows, they might switch sides the next time they disapprove of his ideas and considering his track record in gaining followers, this will probably be pretty soon.