S01.E07: Choice

[chitowngirl]

A bitter truth is revealed.

[Spartan Girl]

 

Well, except for the part where Osha’s mom was going to let her go after all, but still, I called it.

Edited July 10 by Spartan Girl

[paigow]

We saw the truth... bet Sol is lying to Mae right now...

This was like Scarlet Witch mind controlling Hulk.... Trinity killed everyone else with her mind... so how could she lose a fight to Mae FFS????!!!!

[Fool to cry]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

We saw the truth... bet Sol is lying to Mae right now...

This was like Scarlet Witch mind controlling Hulk.... Trinity killed everyone else with her mind... so how could she lose a fight to Mae FFS????!!!!

I don't think she was trying to kill them. Just break their hold on Kelnacca. Severing the connection is what killed the witches.

[dwmarch]

Anticipating some nerd rage online for that contemporary song in the closing credits. Star Wars has never used contemporary music anywhere for any reason. Star Trek can bust out Beastie Boys "Sabotage" and have a character ask if it is classical music for a laugh but with Star Wars the galaxy that is a long time ago and far, far away should not have this music. For clarity, this does not offend me (nor does the show in general) but I foresee some folks getting mad about it.

If there is one thing I feel merits criticism about this show, it's the back and forth narrative. This is our third trip to Brendok of the past now, right? The narrative is all over the place and as a result I am not sure which story I am watching. Is this the story of Mae and Osha? Is it the story of the Jedi's dirty secrets? Is it the story of a Sith-before-it-was-cool? I don't hate any of it but I think it could be structured better to avoid this one step forward, two steps back feeling. I'm hoping the narrative is more cohesive once we have the entire season and all the jumping around flows better. But I think this show might be repeating a mistake from The Book of Boba Fett where the narrative dragged on account of long flashbacks that didn't really have all that much to do with the contemporary story. For The Acolyte I am starting to wonder how many more trips into the past we will have to take in order to finish the main story.

Edit: had to screenshot the Youtube video for the song. I have highlighted the relevant part.

Edited July 10 by dwmarch

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, my first thought when hearing that song over the credits was "I bet the always 'level-headed' online Star Wars fanbase is totally going to love this!"  It was kind of odd though since that is something the franchise never really does it.  But a small part of me wants to see them go all in and keep doing it.  Just trying to imagine a Taylor Swift or Kendrick Lamar song popping up in a future Star Wars project!

So, in the end, the coven massacre wasn't caused by Mae, but basically due to how both the Jedi and the Coven never trusted one another and the tension ended up blowing up in the worst ways possible.  During their first encounter, Mother Aniseya had actually invaded Torbin the Padwan's mind and really ramped up his need to want to get back to Coruscant.  So, one he finds out the truth about the twins, he charges back into the lair to get the twins back so they can officially go home.  Sol goes with him because he's hellbent on making Osha is on Padwan: Jedi Council's decision be damned (Qui-Gon would no doubt approve!)  Tensions continue to rise and when Aniseya turns into some kind of dark mist (I'm assuming she was actually trying to get to Osha), Sol assumes the worst and stabs her.  This leads to the rest of the coven possessing Kelnacca and leading to a neat little fight sequence.  But once Indra finally shows up and breaks their hold, it somehow kills them all, I guess.

Oh, and it turns out that Sol was actually trying to save both Osha and Mae, but wasn't powerful enough, so he ends up deciding to drop Mae to save Osha.  Bet that was a fun revelation for her!

Koril seem to also turn into the black mist and we never saw her body, so I'm continue to think she's the one who is actually running the show and Qimir.

Finale is next week, right?  Think some of the hate is overblown, but it really doesn't feel like that much has happened yet.  Almost like an eight episode pilot, but nothing else is currently going to follow it.

[BellaR]

I like this show, but I think the main problem, and why it feels like nothing has happened yet, is because Osha is the least interesting character on the show. Osha is sweet, and maybe she will suddenly become interesting next week, but right now I am more interested in Mae, Qimir, and almost everyone else. It is hard to root for Osha, when she really doesn't seem to have a lot of agency or drive.

[NeenerNeener]

I know nothing about witch sects in the Star Wars universe, so I have questions after this episode:

Only Mae was marked for "Ascension". Why? If Osha leaves to become a Jedi does that stop  Mae's ascension? What would happen to Osha when Mae ascends if they're actually one person in two bodies? And how the h*ll did that happen anyway?

[absnow54]

21 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

Only Mae was marked for "Ascension". Why?

They showed the Ascension ceremony in a previous episode. Osha hadn’t been marked yet because the Jedi interrupted the ceremony, and Osha was reluctant to participate in the first place. 

[Uncle JUICE]

I've said it before in this forum, I want to like this show. I think it's got a great central idea, like the core of it is full of potential, but this show, I'm sorry, it just isn't good enough. The writing is absolutely abysmal. The dialogue is straight up bizarre, none of it sounds like a natural interaction between characters, everything sounds like the first draft of a YA novel. 

This was supposed to be some big reveal, but it turned out to be just a reheated version of the initial episode on Brendok, and added almost nothing new and CERTAINLY nothing interesting to the story. I can't be the only one who thought we would learn the reason that the bad twin's prank of lighting the booklet on fire COULDN'T have been the reason their entire fortress, made of metal and stone, burned down. But it was.

The witch invades Tarvon's brain (I can't be bothered with the names) and literally finds the least compelling reason for him to give over: he's tired of work and wants to go home. She even starts her pitch with how he's from poor people...then drops it and is basically like "This job sucks, huh? I feel you. Wouldn't leaving be cool and better?" I'm watching it with my 16 year old who immediately points out "Why wouldn't she push on how he was kidnapped, just like Sol wants to do with Osha / Mae?" WTF show.

"THat's why I have a padawan, and you don't!" Was this meant to be a joke, like good natured ribbing? Because she sounded like a real asshole. Like so much of the other dialogue, this sounds like a placeholder, too, like "This is where we explain to the audience fact X or situation Z," but no one goes back and changes it into dialogue that makes the characters feel natural, rather than "I bet the audience will want to know this, so let's just say it." It's awful. Sol at one points says they have a force hole. A FORCE HOLE?!?!

We're here looking for "virgins," or "vergence?" My immediate take was they were looking for people who never used the force or heard of it before. I know the answer, but NO ONE IN THE WRITERS ROOM thought maybe we need another word here, because it sounds like virgins? Nexus. Confluence. Something that doesn't sound like virgins. Easy fix, ignored. 

ETA: THe laziest writing of the series surfaced here again, and I would be remiss to mention it. Why does the good twin want to be a jedi? Does anyone have an answer? 

Edited July 10 by Uncle JUICE

[paigow]

Brendok was lifeless... then is a paradise... sounds like Project Genesis

Why does everyone have to collect soil samples MANUALLY??? Droids exist for every other job FFS...

16 years ago, Jedi brought speeders on a survey mission... 16 years later Jedi walk for hours on a search & rescue mission WTF???!!!!

[NeenerNeener]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

They showed the Ascension ceremony in a previous episode. Osha hadn’t been marked yet because the Jedi interrupted the ceremony, and Osha was reluctant to participate in the first place. 

Thanks. I probably should have waited until the whole season was available for a binge-watch. There's nothing so compelling about this show that I want to rewatch episodes, and I forget things that happened in episodes from weeks ago that seemed unimportant to me at the time.

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

Thanks. I probably should have waited until the whole season was available for a binge-watch. There's nothing so compelling about this show that I want to rewatch episodes, and I forget things that happened in episodes from weeks ago that seemed unimportant to me at the time.

Sounds like my reaction to Ahsoka, but without the added disappointment of a pre-liked character for me. 

[paigow]

Witch 1: The ancient text says we can create a super powered baby using the vergence

Witch 2: Excellent! Can we make 2?

Witch 1: Not at the same time. The power would be diluted, not multiplied.

Witch 2: We need the Power of Two

Witch 1:  Are you listening??? Diluted FFS...

[Uncle JUICE]

30 minutes ago, paigow said:

Witch 1: The ancient text says we can create a super powered baby using the vergence

 

Witch 2: "How the fuck do we make a baby using virgins? We're not virgins!"

Gotta get in that force hole. 

Edited July 10 by Uncle JUICE

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Witch 2: "How the fuck do we make a baby using virgins? We're not virgins!"

Witch 1: 

[Uncle JUICE]

Can someone confirm that INdara actually killed the witch chorus? Like force killed them? I don't think that was super clear, but honestly I don't want to rewatch it. It's a shame because I thought the invasion into Tommen's brain, that sequence, was actually revelatory, like what is it like to have the force in your mind trying to push you over the edge like that, but they abandoned the idea at a critical moment and just wanted us to assume Indara somehow kills all the witches. Kelnacca barely struggles, you'd think having his mind invaded by 40 witches would have gave him some resistance, make Indara break a sweat. 

[paigow]

Indara is not Hawkeye, carrying a special non-fatal arrow for breaking mind control... She went Full Ripley on the witches... the only way to be sure

[Fool to cry]

45 minutes ago, paigow said:

Indara is not Hawkeye, carrying a special non-fatal arrow for breaking mind control... She went Full Ripley on the witches... the only way to be surei

No she's Tony in the Hulkbuster armor punching out a mind controlled Hulk! I dont think any Jedi is powerful enough to kill a whole lot of other Force sensitives with their mind.

[paigow]

How could she not be powerful enough to kill them yet able to break their combined strength neural link? The logical sequence of events is kill witches to break link.

[DoctorAtomic]

12 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

I don't think she was trying to kill them. Just break their hold on Kelnacca.

I don't think she was either. There was no way for her to know all of the others were linked. 

What was Aniseya warging into before Sol stabbed her? Because she was going to let Ohsa go, so I don't think she was going to attack anyone. I think I had speculated in the first flashback episode that I thought the witches might have been fighting each other and the Jedi plowed in there and screwed it up causing everyone to die so I was partially correct. The Other Mother basically motivated Mae to start the fire and lock everyone in. 

The fight was really good though. Makes you wonder why they didn't seek out more Wookie Jedi. 

I will give the Jedi a bit of a pass. They legitimately thought the planet was lifeless, but it wasn't. Taking samples etc., isn't really a big deal. They're out to investigate this 'vergence' so there is a reason for them being out there.

Then, they found people. Same thing, you want to check it out. The whole "our right to test" was highly undiplomatic, and I wasn't seeing where Sol's sudden obsessiveness was coming from. Also, you don't have to hold up the ramp, just force pull the kids. Come on. 

I think it's a little clunky overall, and I think we're missing how Mae and Smilo Ren met. 

[absnow54]

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

We're here looking for "virgins," or "vergence?" My immediate take was they were looking for people who never used the force or heard of it before. I know the answer, but NO ONE IN THE WRITERS ROOM thought maybe we need another word here, because it sounds like virgins? Nexus. Confluence. Something that doesn't sound like virgins. Easy fix, ignored. 

ETA: THe laziest writing of the series surfaced here again, and I would be remiss to mention it. Why does the good twin want to be a jedi? Does anyone have an answer? 

I kept hearing the same thing! And Osha’s motivation to be a Jedi has been bugging me too, because Sol kept encouraging her to join so she could be around other people like her, but she’s in a coven of Force sensitive witches. They’re all like her.

32 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What was Aniseya warging into before Sol stabbed her? Because she was going to let Ohsa go, so I don't think she was going to attack anyone.

What was that? I deliver all my peaceful news by lunging toward someone in an ominously threatening cloud of dust.

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

I don't think she was trying to kill them. Just break their hold on Kelnacca. Severing the connection is what killed the witches.

To me, this whole story hinges on whether or not she knew the consequences of her actions. If her only goal was to break their hold on Kelnacca and had no idea that doing so would kill the witches, that's one thing. If she knew that breaking the hold would kill the witches, than she knew what the consequences were and that's a totally different set of circumstances. 

11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Is this the story of Mae and Osha? Is it the story of the Jedi's dirty secrets? Is it the story of a Sith-before-it-was-cool? I don't hate any of it but I think it could be structured better to avoid this one step forward, two steps back feeling. I'm hoping the narrative is more cohesive once we have the entire season and all the jumping around flows better. But I think this show might be repeating a mistake from The Book of Boba Fett where the narrative dragged on account of long flashbacks that didn't really have all that much to do with the contemporary story.

The Book of Boba Fett's contemporary story was kind a narrative mess that was all over the place. I'm not sure what the biggest problem of this series is yet, but there are multiple problems. I just can't quite put them into words yet. 

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

This leads to the rest of the coven possessing Kelnacca and leading to a neat little fight sequence.  But once Indra finally shows up and breaks their hold, it somehow kills them all, I guess.

I wish that had been made clearer. I don't understand how/why breaking their hold kills them. I will accept a plausible in universe explanation, but I need something more than breaking the hold kills them. 

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Finale is next week, right?  Think some of the hate is overblown, but it really doesn't feel like that much has happened yet.  Almost like an eight episode pilot, but nothing else is currently going to follow it.

I guess it depends on how the final episode ends. It could set up something for a future season, or not. If there was a second season, I would probably not watch it. 

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

ETA: THe laziest writing of the series surfaced here again, and I would be remiss to mention it. Why does the good twin want to be a jedi? Does anyone have an answer? 

Because she wants to see the world/galaxy beyond her home and thinks being a jedi is the best opportunity to achieve that goal.  

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Because she wants to see the world/galaxy beyond her home and thinks being a jedi is the best opportunity to achieve that goal.  

I guess I missed what I'm sure was some rather clunkily delivered dialogue, thanks :). I'm not sure this tracks with the story, but I can certainly imagine it was buried in there somewhere. 

[absnow54]

16 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

The Book of Boba Fett's contemporary story was kind a narrative mess that was all over the place. I'm not sure what the biggest problem of this series is yet, but there are multiple problems. I just can't quite put them into words yet. 

Yeah, The Book of Boba Fett was three episodes too long, so they started writing episodes for the Mandalorian instead. The Acolyte is telling a single story in a non-linear way, but as someone else already mentioned, it feels like a rough draft that was never properly fleshed out. 

[dwmarch]

20 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I wish that had been made clearer. I don't understand how/why breaking their hold kills them. I will accept a plausible in universe explanation, but I need something more than breaking the hold kills them. 

She forgot that if you die in the Matrix, you die in real life?

[Sarah 103]

28 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Yeah, The Book of Boba Fett was three episodes too long, so they started writing episodes for the Mandalorian instead. The Acolyte is telling a single story in a non-linear way, but as someone else already mentioned, it feels like a rough draft that was never properly fleshed out. 

I saw it differently. In The Book of Boba Fett, they wanted to write a gangster story, but then part way through the series realized they didn't know how to write a gangster story. They did know how to write The Mandalorian so they did that. Writing The Mandalorian caused them to remember they did know how to write westerns, so they turned the remaining episodes into The Magnificent Seven, but it didn't quite work because they hadn't spent the previous episodes setting it up properly.

The Book of Boba Fett felt like a collection of backdoor pilots, and some of them could become decent series. 

I do think they should have spent more time fleshing out and better developing the story and characters of The Acolyte. 

[DoctorAtomic]

41 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

To me, this whole story hinges on whether or not she knew the consequences of her actions.

I don't see how she could have known. I think the show would have tipped us off. 

45 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Because she wants to see the world/galaxy beyond her home and thinks being a jedi is the best opportunity to achieve that goal.

The show actually played fair here. It was clear Osha didn't want to be ascended and here come these exotic people with fancy toys. They devoted the entire first flashback episode to Osha, starting with her running off to be on her own because she felt so hemmed in.

No show is above criticism, but they have mostly been straight with the audience. My continuing issue is the unnecessarily short run times, and I think this can be attributed to a somewhat messy narrative here too. 

Another interesting point is that Jedi Trinity was all mocking Sol about no Padawan, so he can't handle it and obsesses over Osha, who ends up walking away anyway. I think we need to know why she did. 

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I do think they should have spent more time fleshing out and better developing the story and characters of The Acolyte. 

There's enough here for me to like. I don't mind the nonlinear narrative. They got to what actually happened here, which I think was a necessity to the overall narrative. I liked them killing off all the Jedi. 

This is a fair criticism though. I'm baffled because just another 5-7 minutes per episode fixes this easily. I thought the reason we have streaming services is to be able to see the stories with the latitude of being able to breathe. I don't care if you need to throw in another ad break. I'm sure D+ isn't hurting on finding sponsors. 

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

 

I wish that had been made clearer. I don't understand how/why breaking their hold kills them. I will accept a plausible in universe explanation, but I need something more than breaking the hold kills them. 

 

It would have been something to add if Indara had ANY reaction to it. LIke when Kelnacca's free, she could be like "HOLY FUCK, I didn't mean to kill all those ladies!" or "THIS is why I told you not to come. Your poor decisions and insubordination have now contributed to the death of 3 dozen otherwise innocent people, and orphaned two kids." Instead, she's like "Ok, let's go now."

[Shanna Marie]

I feel like there was a lot of blame to go around here, and it might have helped to have had a bit more context and explanation.

Sol's initial obsession with getting Osha out of the coven is a bit unclear. We didn't see any sign from his perspective that she was in danger or being abused, so was there other information he had, like the history of this coven, or was it just the Force told him to do it? This was what set everything in motion.

But then the disaster seems to have been triggered by the witches. While Torbin was whining about wanting to go home, it seems that having his mind messed with and the suggestion planted about him wanting to do anything to be able to go home ended up backfiring and making him do something extreme that would hurt the coven in order to allow him to go home. The plan was probably just to make him insist on going home so the Jedi would leave, not to make him want to kidnap Mae and Osha to get evidence of the vergence so they could leave.

Then there's this:

3 hours ago, absnow54 said:

I deliver all my peaceful news by lunging toward someone in an ominously threatening cloud of dust.

Shouldn't she have led with "I'm letting Osha go, she's packing and will be down in a minute" instead of going all ominous? Sol probably overreacted, but she was definitely being threatening, and oddly so, considering she was the one who planted the obsession in Torbin and she'd decided to let Osha go.

Then there was spiny face mom urging Mae to stop Osha from going. I think Mae had a wee bit of a sociopathic tendency that made her go overboard in being cruel about that, then she realized too late that she'd gone too far and lost control.

I figure the witches had it coming from possessing Kelnacca because forcing someone else to do their dirty work, especially when it involves forcing that individual to attack his colleagues, is dirty pool.

So far, the Jedi who are more or less innocent were the ones to die. Indara was trying to be the voice of reason throughout, and I figure she was acting in defense of others when she broke the connection between Kelnacca and the witches (though it does depend on how much she knew about the consequences, still, not sure it would or should have changed her actions, given what they were up to). Torbin was a pawn who was manipulated and used by the witches, then was dragged into a conspiracy by the Jedi. He didn't deserve what happened to him. Ditto Kelnacca, who wasn't behind any of it and was possessed. Sol was the one who instigated all of it by being obsessed with getting Osha and then killed her mother and then promoted the conspiracy to lie about it all.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think Jedi Trinity would have killed them all even if she knew. I do think stomping in to demand testing was the catalyst to the whole debacle because it led to both Torbin being brainwashed and acting rashly (which, really, Trinity could have Force Yanked him off the bike, but ok), and Sol becoming obsessed. While not the Jedi's fault, they put themselves in the position for Torbin to be brainwashed. 

Trinity could have just said, 'let's talk one on one' too. They were all pushing her to go in together, but it's her call. 

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Sol's initial obsession with getting Osha out of the coven is a bit unclear. We didn't see any sign from his perspective that she was in danger or being abused, so was there other information he had, like the history of this coven, or was it just the Force told him to do it? This was what set everything in motion.

I do think it was unclear, but I also think they were going for him to freak out when he found out the twins were created from the force. They could have added some lines like, "Those are just kids; the witches are doing some ceremony to them" where he was thinking that the witches created them for some sacrifice. They didn't say or show that, and I think they missed out on cluing us in more. Also, I think Sol took the 'you don't have a padawan' slight a lot more than was let on, and I think we should have been tipped off that Trinity really insulted him there. 

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Shouldn't she have led with "I'm letting Osha go, she's packing and will be down in a minute" instead of going all ominous?

Or, "hang on, my daughter is in trouble, let me find her."

I think the whole confrontation could have played out a little more organically with just a few more minutes to hit those beats. 

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Because she wants to see the world/galaxy beyond her home and thinks being a jedi is the best opportunity to achieve that goal.  

Torbin would have told her that Indara signs up for every lame mission involving dull planets so sightseeing gets old really fast.......

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

The Book of Boba Fett felt like a collection of backdoor pilots, and some of them could become decent series....

like Deadwood / Justified

[paigow]

Regardless of whether Trinity should be charged with Murder One or Involuntary Manslaughter, the inescapable conclusion is that The Power Of Many is outweighed by The Power Of One 

Edited July 10 by paigow

[Glade]

That scene with Torbin was so hot!  I want to hear more about the 'natural desires' he's suppressing, though sadly it looks like he never lives out these hidden erotic fantasies, since he goes on to meditate for the rest of his life.  I like that we went deeper into the truth, but it makes the Jedi worse in some ways, since they blamed a (supposedly dead) child for their own selfish, short-sighted actions.  I'm hoping that at least one of the witches actually survived to reconstitute their coven elsewhere. 

Edited July 11 by Glade

[paigow]

16 minutes ago, Glade said:

That scene with Torbin was so hot!  I want to hear more about the 'natural desires' he's suppressing, though sadly it looks like he never lives out these hidden erotic fantasies...

Conversely, Yord seems to hit on every female he meets... so his suppressor is OFF

[Fool to cry]

This is what I figured. Even if she was powerful enough the Indara we saw in the episode wouldn't just kill dozens of people. This was magic none of these Jedi had encountered before and there was no way she could no what would happen when she freed Kelnacca.

 

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

This is what I figured. Even if she was powerful enough the Indara we saw in the episode wouldn't just kill dozens of people....

 

unless she needed to save a friend... or an attachment...

Edited July 11 by paigow

[DoctorAtomic]

Probably a better post for the media thread. 

[KeithJ]

All these Jedi really suck and especially Sol. I really hope the season ends with him dying a horrible death.

He sees the girls training for 30 seconds and then witnesses the witches preparing for a ceremony so that means the girls are in danger?  What if that was just their daily dinner ceremony?

Then, the Jedi just go and break into the witches home. I guess the Jedi are above the law?

I know it was the same scene as before but the whole "The Jedi have a right to test potential padawans" still rubs me the wrong way.  Who exactly gave you that right? Especially on planets not under Republic control.

After a couple minutes talking to Osha, Sol feels she's meant to be his padawan?  Where did this come from?

Mae had ceremonial markings but Osha didn't so again, that means Osha is in danger?  I know Sol doesn't know this but the reason Osha didn't have any markings was because the Jedi interrupted the ceremony (I think even though Osha was reluctant she was still going to get them).

I'm still not really sure why Trinity's padawan took off after getting the blood results.  I know he wanted to go home but what exactly did he think he was going to do?

We've seen all the Jedi not want to use their lightsabers unless absolutely necessary but Sol just ups and murders the mother with his when she turns to smoke?

The best part of this episode was Kelnacca beating the crap out of Sol and the padawan until Trinity came to save them.  But, where did she come from?  She made a point earlier of saying there was no place to land the ship.

Sol must really not be a great Force user either. He should have easily been able to pull Mae and Osha from the bridge but he tries holding up the bridge instead?  It almost seems like he only wanted to save Osha because of whatever silly bond he thinks he has with her.

Sol was 100% responsible for everything that happened on that planet.

Edited July 11 by KeithJ

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

This was magic none of these Jedi had encountered before and there was no way she could no what would happen when she freed Kelnacca.

This very important information should have been in the actual episode. They are not bound by rigid time constraints like cable or network. I think all it would have taken were two lines of dialogue. Have the audience/viewer see the dead witches. Cut to Indara with a look on her face that shows she is aware that the witches are dead.

Indara: Oh no! What have I done?

Character 2: Come on, we need to leave now! 

Obviously the dialogue could be improved, but just that general/basic sentiment needed to be communicated to the audience. 

1 hour ago, KeithJ said:

He sees the girls training for 30 seconds and then witnesses the witches preparing for a ceremony so that means the girls are in danger?  What if that was just their daily dinner ceremony?

I agree. I think he made a huge unwarranted leap from "there's a ceremony happening" to "the girls are in immediate/imminent danger." He has no idea if the ceremony puts the girls or danger or if its harmless. It could consist of the girls standing on the platform while the witches chant stuff. He doesn't know. 

[Ilovepie]

On 7/9/2024 at 10:32 PM, dwmarch said:

If there is one thing I feel merits criticism about this show, it's the back and forth narrative. This is our third trip to Brendok of the past now, right? The narrative is all over the place and as a result I am not sure which story I am watching. Is this the story of Mae and Osha? Is it the story of the Jedi's dirty secrets? Is it the story of a Sith-before-it-was-cool? I don't hate any of it but I think it could be structured better to avoid this one step forward, two steps back feeling. I'm hoping the narrative is more cohesive once we have the entire season and all the jumping around flows better. But I think this show might be repeating a mistake from The Book of Boba Fett where the narrative dragged on account of long flashbacks that didn't really have all that much to do with the contemporary story. For The Acolyte I am starting to wonder how many more trips into the past we will have to take in order to finish the main story.

100% agree. Considering how short the episodes and season are, I didn't need half of this episode be a flashback. The only flashback needed was to a different POV as Sol is finally coughing up the truth to Mae about what happened. This episode felt like filler which is never what you want the penultimate episode to be. Overall narrative of this show is weird and clunky.

On 7/10/2024 at 1:16 AM, BellaR said:

I like this show, but I think the main problem, and why it feels like nothing has happened yet, is because Osha is the least interesting character on the show. Osha is sweet, and maybe she will suddenly become interesting next week, but right now I am more interested in Mae, Qimir, and almost everyone else. It is hard to root for Osha, when she really doesn't seem to have a lot of agency or drive.

I think that is the worst part about this show - I still think the show would be better and the story tighter if the girls weren't even in it - just some Jedis discovering Sith and Dark Force users like the witches do actually exist. I only became interested in Osha last episode when the possibility of her turning was raised. THAT is interesting, but of course we don't even see those two characters this episode. For a show called "The Acolyte", where the hell is THE ACOLYTE??? 

The other big frustration with this show is also the failed world building. It feels like it could be set in any Star Wars time frame. Why is this high republic? How would you know when almost the entire show has taken place on a ship or remote uninhabited planets? It feels exactly the same as every other Star Wars show or movie, with the exception of Andor. Shoot, even The Bad Batch cartoon did a better job! Those shows were able to effectively convey the terror of living under empire rule. THIS show says 100 years earlier is exactly the same as the prequels, so who cares? 

I thought Ahsoka was my least favorite D+ show, but this one is really making a compelling argument for being the biggest D+ Star Wars fail......ymmv, but for my money, this is a complete mess.

[dwmarch]

6 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

THIS show says 100 years earlier is exactly the same as the prequels, so who cares? 

I think a particular weakness of this show is that this plot requires Jedi bad guys but since it is Disney, they can't just be evil. Torbin wants to go home but he doesn't get dangerous about it until the witches mess with his mind. Sol seems to get a similar version of this except focused on Osha becoming his Padawan. Kelnacca attacks his fellow Jedi because he is being mind controlled. Indara kills the witches by mistake and doesn't seem to even realize that she did it. The show wants the Jedi to be misunderstood good guys who made some simple mistakes that only escalated because of the angry witches.

I think this would have been so much more compelling of a story if the Jedi were straight evil but didn't think of themselves that way. Have them come rolling up like cops in a bad neighborhood, here to lay down the law and put the Force to anyone who talks back. We're not here to negotiate or ask permission, those kids are part of some Jedi shit that you witches clearly don't know anything about and they're coming with us whether you like it or not. Have them be arrogant and impatient and leaning into their anger (and hence the Dark Side) without being conflicted about it. We're Jedi and we're always right because we are Jedi. If we were capable of being wrong, we wouldn't be Jedi. Therefore, we are always right and so is everything we do. No mind control necessary. If we're going to show how the Jedi became corrupt and eventually fell, let's do The Shield or We Own this City instead of Keystone Cops.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think I'd want to see that. It's a little over the top and not consistent with the fall of the Jedi in the PT. It was more of a sclerosis. Yes, there was arrogance, but there was also a 'this is how we do things because this is always how we did it', which is probably worse imo. That basically is why Anakin doesn't get raised to Master. He 'didn't pass all the tests'. Well, he was fighting in a galaxy spanning war and clearly surpassed any test you could give him. But they wouldn't budge.

Guys like Qui Gon and Kenobi are legitimately good guys. There were plenty of Jedi in the Clone Wars that were good guys. That's why it's tragic when Order 66 takes them out. Yes, they shot themselves in the foot, but at the expense of good people. 

Now, if you want to do a show about *fallen* Jedi who became disillusioned with all that, then I'm all in. That was basically Dooku, but that doesn't mean there weren't more before him. It would be very much of the Council to expunge records or seal records of fallen Jedi. 

In fact, we have a the perfect opportunity here with Smilo Ren. We're all (correctly) assuming he left the Order. So maybe the show might have been better served from his pov. 

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In fact, we have a the perfect opportunity here with Smilo Ren. We're all (correctly) assuming he left the Order. So maybe the show might have been better served from his pov. 

First Episode, he lands on Brendok, walks for days, finds an abandoned building to live in.

Episode 2:  A bunch of witches arrive, but he is afraid to meet them, so he moves to a pit.

Episode 3: He hears fighting, explosions, then is shocked when a young girl falls on him.

[Ilovepie]

15 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I think this would have been so much more compelling of a story if the Jedi were straight evil but didn't think of themselves that way. Have them come rolling up like cops in a bad neighborhood, here to lay down the law and put the Force to anyone who talks back. We're not here to negotiate or ask permission, those kids are part of some Jedi shit that you witches clearly don't know anything about and they're coming with us whether you like it or not. Have them be arrogant and impatient and leaning into their anger (and hence the Dark Side) without being conflicted about it. We're Jedi and we're always right because we are Jedi. If we were capable of being wrong, we wouldn't be Jedi. Therefore, we are always right and so is everything we do. No mind control necessary. If we're going to show how the Jedi became corrupt and eventually fell, let's do The Shield or We Own this City instead of Keystone Cops

The one thing I think the show has done right is show that the Jedi have always been full of themselves and think their way is the only way, often to their own detriment. We have seen it time and time again and this show really reinforced it by their behavior on Brendok. The witches were out on a remote planet minding their own business and in comes the Jedi and next thing you know they are all dead and the coven destroyed. It's that old saying - the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Or pride goes before a fall. Take your pick! I don't need them to be full evil - that job is already filled by the Sith. And we've seen the "Jedi turns Sith" story multiple times already. I do like seeing that they are not just "good guys" though and it's more shades of gray, and that is why I wish the story really just focused on the jedi cover up with the coven and finding a new Sith threat. 

Or the show should have been what the title says - a show fully from the Sith warrior's perspective - his search for an acolyte. No Jedi. Either way, the story could have been much tighter. Multiple flashback episodes in such a short show is boring, lazy and uncreative.

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

100% agree. Considering how short the episodes and season are, I didn't need half of this episode be a flashback. The only flashback needed was to a different POV as Sol is finally coughing up the truth to Mae about what happened. This episode felt like filler which is never what you want the penultimate episode to be. Overall narrative of this show is weird and clunky.

Agreed. They could have started the flashback during the battle and started from just before the point new information/perspectives were revealed to the audience. Give us just enough to orient ourselves so we know/understand where we are (I remember this part) and then the big reveals (that was something new that wasn't shown before).

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I think that is the worst part about this show - I still think the show would be better and the story tighter if the girls weren't even in it - just some Jedis discovering Sith and Dark Force users like the witches do actually exist.

I like this idea better than the show we are watching. Show us the Jedi investigating suspicious (Dark) Force users. Cut the Mae/Osha storyline. 

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

Why is this high republic? How would you know when almost the entire show has taken place on a ship or remote uninhabited planets? It feels exactly the same as every other Star Wars show or movie, with the exception of Andor.

I agree and this problem would be fixed if the show had been more like your idea. If it's about the Jedi investigating and trying to track down an individual (a Sith) or a group (the witches) the Jedi would have to travel and interact with different people, possibly from different levels/elements of society. Show the Jedi starting off in or close to the core and working their way out to the outer rim. 

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

Or the show should have been what the title says - a show fully from the Sith warrior's perspective - his search for an acolyte. No Jedi. Either way, the story could have been much tighter. Multiple flashback episodes in such a short show is boring, lazy and uncreative.

I like the idea of the Sith perspective and the search for an acolyte, but I also like the idea of a cat and mouse with the Jedi. The Sith trying to stay one step ahead. I think it adds tension. 

[paigow]

Alternate show formats:

• Acolytes Got Talent - The Golden Buzzer is not always a good thing
• Acolyte Ninja Warrior - No obstacle jumping but move them with your mind
• Acolyte Wipeout - The Floor is Lava

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

The witches were out on a remote planet minding their own business and in comes the Jedi and next thing you know they are all dead and the coven destroyed.

That's a little compressed. I think we're all in agreement that stomping in there and saying 'it's our right to test' was out of line and arrogant for sure, but they were there investigating a legitimate Force anomaly on what they thought was a lifeless planet. "Hey, people? Let's check it out." All that is fine up to the 'right to test'. Trinity could have easily said, 'we thought this place was lifeless from the hyperspace explosion last century. Hello.'

Things didn't really go sideways until they found out the twins were literally created out of the force. I would infer that Sol, seeing them the only children and hearing of an 'ascension ceremony' thought they were going to be sacrificed, then went off the rails. The problem with the show is that what I think is a reasonable inference isn't really backed up by anything on screen because Sol's motivations are not earned. Yes, even when they learned that, they still could have handled it better and what happened is largely on them. The other mother was spoiling for a fight; she didn't help either. 

Is this a one off or is there a second season? Because Smilo/Osha could be the second season after all this. 

I assume in the end the Power of Two defeat Smilo because that would seem the obvious outcome.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I assume in the end the Power of Two defeat Smilo because that would seem the obvious outcome.

Osha + Mae = 1