Supernatural Smackdown: The Winchester Dynamic Duo vs Other Shows

[DittyDotDot]

I actually grew to like Timeless over the course of the season and was glad to hear they were giving it some more episodes to see if they could make a go of it. But, I did have to accept their universe doesn't make a lick of sense. But, I liked the characters and I guess I just get Kripke's brand of funny so it's easy to wave away the nonsense. It's very Supernatural for me in that way.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The Magicians is just meh and Shadowhunters IMO has pretty terrible acting except for the guy that plays Magnus.  I don't get the fuss over Matthew Daddario (sorry to you Alec  fans out there. I don't much like Alec).

I tried the Magicians, I gave it my full first-season shot, and I took a hard pass on anything more. For all their snooty advertising saying it was going to be a "grown up" Harry Potter--And, I've never watched or read Harry Potter, mind you--but I can't imagine Harry Potter being even half a juvenile. Which I'm not against, as a rule, but didn't find any of the characters very compelling nor did I think their need to prove they were grown ups and could have sex at every opportunity very compelling. 

Shadowhunters is on my queue, but we'll see when or if I get to it.

9 hours ago, scribe95 said:

It's an older show but Justified had amazingly written characters. So good. 

I wholeheartedly recommend Justified too. Just an all around great show from the writing to directing to the acting.

[ParadoxLost]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have tried to watch Timeless and The Magicians and Shadowhunters and all I do is just think this has already been done by SPN and done better (which I imagine some X Files viewers thing about SPN which has never pretended to not be in that vein given Kim Manners attachment and they actually referenced X Files explicitly so they weren't hiding it. And some see some Buffy and Angel moments in SPN, even though I never really have. It's only ever seemed similar to the X Files to me.  

I watch Timeless and I think, Eric Kripke, I see your low rent Poor Man's Dean Winchester there. I watched maybe 3 eps of Timeless, and specifically tuned in for Misha's turn as Eliot Ness only for him to be killed off in minutes LOL.

Now I think Eric Kripke is trying to do an homage to SPN but it comes off more ripping off his own show than homages but maybe he can't make actual direct references to SPN for legal reasons. That said his Poor Man's Dean Winchester just irritates me cause there ain't no one like Dean Winchester IMO and I'm sure there are many here who think the opposite and you are welcome to think that. I'm not gonna debate it LOL

The Magicians is just meh and Shadowhunters IMO has pretty terrible acting except for the guy that plays Magnus.  I don't get the fuss over Matthew Daddario (sorry to you Alec  fans out there. I don't much like Alec).

I'm meh on Timeless and Shadowhunters is a horrible, horrible, really just terrible show.

Out of curiosity, not trying to change your mind, but when did you try Magicians.

I ask because I really didn't care for it in season one.  It was kind of bleak and depressing.  Meh does kind of capture that season perfectly.

Its just that in season 2, they went to Fillory and the batshit crazy madness they do in Fillory is tons of fun and really smart and funny.  Fillory is kind of akin to the meta SPN episodes or the ones where the Trickster is messing with Sam and Dean.  But season 2 on Earth was still really bleak and a lot of terrible things happen to the characters.  Season 2 is kind of bipolar. 

I would say that season 3, two eps in, is tilting more towards humor, but then that thing happened and I'm reserving judgement.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Out of curiosity, not trying to change your mind, but when did you try Magicians.

Season 1 I watched like 5 episodes and that was it. Never went back.

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Shadowhunters is a horrible, horrible, really just terrible show.

I legit don't understand the love for Shadowhunters. I do like the Malec pairing but Alec is kind of an ass but that's okay too. Characters don't need to be perfect, look at our boys.

he effects are cheesy. The stories are just I think too juvenile. I wish I could better explain why I don't like it...I just...don't. It's just ....not good IMO. 

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I ask because I really didn't care for it in season one.  It was kind of bleak and depressing.  Meh does kind of capture that season perfectly.

Its just that in season 2, they went to Fillory and the batshit crazy madness they do in Fillory is tons of fun and really smart and funny.  Fillory is kind of akin to the meta SPN episodes or the ones where the Trickster is messing with Sam and Dean.  But season 2 on Earth was still really bleak and a lot of terrible things happen to the characters.  Season 2 is kind of bipolar. 

I would say that season 3, two eps in, is tilting more towards humor, but then that thing happened and I'm reserving judgement.

No worries, I wouldn't have commented if I didn't want conversation. I watched S1 late this summer or early fall on Netflix. And like I said, I gave it my standard first-full-season watch--which is I try not to nitpick too much, but mostly go with it and get into the feel of the show and wait until the end of the season to see if it held water for me. I always think some new shows need some time to find their legs so I kinda have a rule that if I'm going to start a new show I need to be prepared to give it a full season before I bail.

Interesting you found it depressing because I didn't find it overall depressing--not until almost the end of the first season--but just thought it was not well written, directed or acted. And, like I said, none of the characters ever grew on me, which is kinda important for me. If I can't understand why they're doing something, then I'm not going to try and understand how they're doing it. And, in lieu of world building, character development and coherent story, they generally opted for the cheep joke. Which, I'm all for cheesy fun, but every single moment gets a little tiring. I have an inner 12-year-old, so I figured it would be fine, they'd figure it out by the end of the season. But they never really seemed to. 

But, I feel like I gave it a fair shake, so I don't have any hard feelings for the show. I hope it continues to do well and people continue to enjoy it. 

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, like I said, none of the characters ever grew on me, which is kinda important for me.

This was absolutely true for me too.  I didn't like any character in season 1.  I'm not really emotionally invested in what happens to them to this day.  Maybe Penny and Elliot have grown on me.  

But they have recently managed to hit my funny bone just right.

[gonzosgirrl]

I know it was discussed recently, though I'm damned if I can find where.... but the topic was all the places the Winchesters have visited over 13 seasons. I was reminded of it when I saw this little bit of fun regarding one of my all time favourite shows: Quantum Leap. Sam (Beckett) gives the boys a run for their money as far as US locations, but he also leapt internationally a few times as well. Some amazing person put together this interactive Google map of every location and the episode in which Sam leapt there. 93 leaps over five seasons. So cool!

Link to map

[Wayward Son]

I just watched last nights X File episode! Hiliarious and would have fit in as an Edlund SN episode back in the day xD

[catrox14]

On 1/24/2018 at 8:54 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I know it was discussed recently, though I'm damned if I can find where.... but the topic was all the places the Winchesters have visited over 13 seasons. I was reminded of it when I saw this little bit of fun regarding one of my all time favourite shows: Quantum Leap. Sam (Beckett) gives the boys a run for their money as far as US locations, but he also leapt internationally a few times as well. Some amazing person put together this interactive Google map of every location and the episode in which Sam leapt there. 93 leaps over five seasons. So cool!

Link to map

It was in the Supernatural rewatch magic thread.

NOPE. Make that the Bitterness and UO thread.

Edited January 25, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

Salt circles...

Hellhounds... 

Small town...

 

This week’s X Files episode was practically a Supernatural cross over! 

[Wayward Son]

If Jessica Jones is cancelled by Netflix, Krysten Ritter would be the perfect choice for a nuanced badass female hunter! 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Wayward Son

[FlickChick]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:35 AM, Wayward Son said:

Salt circles...

Hellhounds... 

Small town...

 

This week’s X Files episode was practically a Supernatural cross over! 

Finally watched it. It was great - and don't forget the grimoire and witches!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Finally watched it. It was great - and don't forget the grimoire and witches!

Seriously it was the most Supernatural X Files ever

[belbar]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously it was the most Supernatural X Files ever

Please hire the writers. We need them.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 3/10/2018 at 9:50 PM, belbar said:

Please hire the writers. We need them.

I caught up on my DVR over the weekend and watched this X Files ep. Wow, some of the scariest stuff I've seen on TV in a while, and spoiler:

Spoiler

We never really even see the 'monster'. That 'clown',  Mr. Chuckleteeth (???) was fucking terrifying! Sam would've peed himself.

Oh how I would like a great, scary, supernatural episode like this again on our show. My only peeve is that they film so much in the dark, I can barely see what's happening - and there's no point to even trying to watch in the daylight.

[BlueSapphire]

I’ve seen a few people on Twitter say that the show could take some writing pointers from Lucifer, which seriously cracks me up, because that show has also become a soapy mess.  The female cop character finally believes Lucifer is the literal Devil after THREE seasons (really?), and, I’m sorry, but you’re writing about SATAN, the freaking Prince of Darkness here, but let’s see him anguish about his apparent romantic fee-fees about said female cop.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

you’re writing about SATAN, the freaking Prince of Darkness here, but let’s see him anguish about his apparent romantic fee-fees about said female cop.

I think when it comes to writing Satan with inexplicable human feelings, Supernatural wins, hands down.

Lucifer developing feelings for Chloe was/is the point of the series.

Spoiler

And like John & Mary getting together, those feelings were manipulated by God in the first place.

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

I’ve seen a few people on Twitter say that the show could take some writing pointers from Lucifer, which seriously cracks me up, because that show has also become a soapy mess.  The female cop character finally believes Lucifer is the literal Devil after THREE seasons (really?), and, I’m sorry, but you’re writing about SATAN, the freaking Prince of Darkness here, but let’s see him anguish about his apparent romantic fee-fees about said female cop.

Just curious if you watch the show?

For me personally,   I disagree with this description. 

I watch Lucifer and there was only one storyline I would term soapy.  And it wasn't a main arc.    There is a reason why Chloe just found out.   He had planned to tell her but something happens at the end of season 2 that prevented it.  It was a huge story line.

Lucifer tackles things like identity and free will far better the Supernatural does it.  Lucifer's relationship with Chloe isn't just Fee-Fees.  Its a lot more complex.    Actually this season Lucifer and Chloe spent a lot of time apart.  The show trusts the relationship between the two main leads and doesn't feel the need for them to be attached at the hip.  They don't hesitate to mix up the pairings which leads to some interesting stuff. 

The episodes build on each other.  The writers obviously talk to each other.  The multiple plot points are addressed and tie together.   They balance multiple characters giving them something to do. 

This is not all on the writers, unfortunately, Lucifer was hampered by a lot of behind the scenes stuff.  They wanted to go darker but were told by the net work they had to keep things light and procedural.  They didn't want the writers to go much into the Supernatural.  There was a big arc involving Lucifer's 

Spoiler

Lucifer's wings being stolen.  The network said, we love this episode but ditch the wings.  They were like WTF?

  My favorite episode A Priest Walks into a Bar, not only Lucifer but of TV period,  was almost nixed completely becasue of Network interference.  The writers fought for both and IMO and for me episode 1.6 put the show on a new level. 

I can't wait too see what Netflix does with it, because they're not hampered by Network TV's standards and practices.   I think it will move out more toward the darker elements.  Tom Ellis is on record about wanting Lucifer to go darker. 

No, they're not perfect.  I do think Dan needs more material than just comic relief.  But given what they're up against, I think they do a great job, and I do think SPN could learn a lot about the way the run things. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by ILoveReading
edited because of spoiler

[BlueSapphire]

I haven’t watched a whole lot and I will admit to reading reviews and reactions quite a bit.  I don’t really like the actress playing Chloe, so that factors into my perception.  I don’t know how closely the people behind the scenes are following the source material, but I’m not sure that there is a Chloe character at all in the comics, or that Lucifer falls in love.  Good for them that they got picked up by Netflix, but with only ten episodes and some new characters to write for, every episode has to be on point.

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I haven’t watched a whole lot and I will admit to reading reviews and reactions quite a bit.  I don’t really like the actress playing Chloe, so that factors into my perception.  I don’t know how closely the people behind the scenes are following the source material, but I’m not sure that there is a Chloe character at all in the comics, or that Lucifer falls in love.  Good for them that they got picked up by Netflix, but with only ten episodes and some new characters to write for, every episode has to be on point.

Last season had 26 episodes.  Four of those were filmed the year before, so they had to try and figure out a way to fit them in.  They were good eps but they did interrupt the flow of the season and dragged down the pacing. So I will admit that hurt the season somewhat but that's not exactly the writers fault.   So I think 10 eps is actually going to help the show.  The writers have already said that each ep is going to move the story along with no filler.  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

I haven’t watched a whole lot and I will admit to reading reviews and reactions quite a bit.  I don’t really like the actress playing Chloe, so that factors into my perception.

See? There is a way to find common ground even if you disagree on most (entertainment) things. *g*  I can't stand Chloe-Sue and am not a big fan of the actress, either. The character was introduced as an almost-rookie-detective-wannabe actress-turned-cop but it didn't take long until she was solving cases (mostly due to Lucifer, but also by MarySue magic at times), besting every bad guy and basically being perfect. IMO, the only weak link in a strong cast of characters. Hopefully now that she knows and they have more artistic freedom on Netflix, they can stop with the supercop aspect. ETA: a probably unpopular opinion, but I would also not be sorry if Ella got eaten by a bear, for mostly the same reasons. She is really not believable as the uber-amazing forensics expert she is supposed to be. I wish they could find a way to bring Tricia Helfer back. Great character (both of them) and actress.

Edited November 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions" thread:

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I haven't yet watched this week's episode, and I'm not sure when I will, I'm just too annoyed right now.  I have probably been enjoying this season more than most people, but I'm totally pissed about Lucifer.  Even though I knew it was going to happen.  Two years ago it was the bullshit with Cas, Crowley and Mary, and now Lucifer.  What the fuck was the point in even killing him off?  If you don't want to lose the actor, then make up a plausible storyline for him.  

The only way to keep him around is to do with him what they did with Crowley, and have him become a frenemy of the Winchesters.  Come up with a valid reason why he won't kill them, otherwise, it's just stupid.  He's vaporized countless people with just the snap of his fingers, yet he chooses to chase Sam and Dean around the yard, and get into fist fights with them...repeatedly?  It's asinine.  

As for Jared and Jensen, I have no problem with their sticking with the show, but I am beginning to wonder why they don't ask for more input into the storylines.  No, they're not writers, but they're also not stupid, and they have to recognize bullshit when they see it (or read it).  It's so frustrating because this damn show could practically write itself.   I'm not sure whether they simply don't care anymore, or whether they're almost hoping the show gets so bad that people walk away, so that they won't be the ones to have to make the decision to end it.  The whole thing is just so frustrating because there's no reason the show can't still be good.  

Speaking of the writers, for me, I think it just gets away from them maybe. They get so bogged down in what they think is interesting that they can't see how frustrating it is to some viewers. I would think it was something unique to this show if I didn't see it also happening in other shows... The Walking Dead is a good example. In the last couple of seasons the show unceremoniously dumped a few main characters, sometimes messing up their characterization in the process, in order to justify and focus on a bunch of new characters many viewers either don't care about or who they even hate.

One of these characters is so loathsome that most of the posters on that show thread - including myself - wish he would die horribly, but what did a recent interview with the showrunner say? (Paraphrase) Don't worry, we'll soon learn all about what happened with that character and be seeing a lot more of him!!! Trust me when I say no one in that thread had been "worried" at all. Almost all of them (it actually seemed like literally all) had hoped his running off would mean that he'd fall off the edge of the earth never to be seen again, but apparently the show runner thinks that the fans were all just waiting with baited breath to see what he would do next.

My point: the writers for TWD think this character is the greatest thing since sliced bread. They even sacrificed one of the original main characters (along with his characterization) to justify him staying around. So maybe sometimes that justification you were talking about above is perhaps better just not happening. I would have hated to have seen something like what happened to Carl in TWD have happened to Sam or Dean in order to justify Lucifer staying around. For me that would've been even worse, and when a group of writers is so enamored - as they were in TWD - that they didn't hesitate to even throw main characters under the bus in order to justify having an excuse to keep their favorite, then apparently these things can happen. From what I've heard, the TWD writers even continued it with another main character - THE show's main character and focus actually - to condone the loathsome character staying around. For me, that first character assassination and death was the last straw and I actually stopped watching the show after investing in 8 seasons. I keep up on the show threads here on that board, but refuse to watch the show again.

But despite the falling ratings, apparently the writers on TWD still think what the viewers want to see is loathsome Negan*** talking about his dick (and not in a joking fun way), weird peripheral characters, and a bunch of new teenagers going out and partying and getting drunk during a zombie apocalypse (sure kill off teenager Carl after we watched him grow up and got used to him and replace him with a bunch of obnoxious teens we don't know at all and could care less about. That sounds like an entirely winning strategy.) Like with our show, TWD should just be able to write itself. Zombies should be a threat and characters we care about should be trying to band together against that threat and trying to make a future, not having petty squabbles in a world overrun with weird cults of people that justify killing each other in the most unuseful ways possible.

So who knows why showrunners and writers seem to invest in characters that many of the fans hate and find boring while they seem to be fascinated? Or focus on storylines many fans could care less about? The longer a show goes on though, the more likely it appears that the show might just fall down that kind of rabbit hole. Someone should do an in depth study on why that happens and what the thinking of those showrunners was and where they went wrong.

*** I am not exaggerating when I say that I would rather see Lucifer whining about his Daddy issues on a loop than watch this character. For me, Negan makes Lucifer seem fascinating. Yet we get lots of backstory on and speechifying on his "philosophy" from Negan... with more to come. I can't tell you how much I didn't / don't care how Negan became the loathsome character he became, but apparently the writers think that the fans are clamoring to hear how Negan went from lowly gym teacher (a guess on my part) to "Saviour" of the world, and they are rubbing their hands together in glee, just waiting to tell us all about it... Except not me any more, because I'm outta there.

[MysteryGuest]

I've never seen even one episode of The Walking Dead, so I can't comment, specifically, but I wonder if TPTB somehow think in their warped little minds that hating a character so much and constantly bitching about it is somehow a good thing?  Yes, people are talking about your show, but you're also driving faithful viewers away.  I can't imagine that the CW thinks SPN is actually going to pick up all sorts of new viewers, so why deliberately screw with the fan base you have?  Or am I missing something, and are most SPN fans as enamored with all things Lucifer as the show runners seem to be?  I don't get it.

[Jeddah]

25 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Speaking of the writers, for me, I think it just gets away from them maybe. They get so bogged down in what they think is interesting that they can't see how frustrating it is to some viewers. I would think it was something unique to this show if I didn't see it also happening in other shows... The Walking Dead is a good example. In the last couple of seasons the show unceremoniously dumped a few main characters, sometimes messing up their characterization in the process, in order to justify and focus on a bunch of new characters many viewers either don't care about or who they even hate.

I’ve never watched TWD, but this perfectly describes my feelings about Sleepy Hollow. I rage-quit that show because of the way they propped up Katrina and mistreated Abbie. I will never understand what the writers were thinking there. Anyone could see the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod. Nobody wanted more Katrina.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've never seen even one episode of The Walking Dead, so I can't comment, specifically, but I wonder if TPTB somehow think in their warped little minds that hating a character so much and constantly bitching about it is somehow a good thing? 

I don't know, but at least in the case of SPN, the main characters are still around, so they are still at least a focus. On TWD, most of the original main characters are dead or gone... ironically loathsome Negan, the new pet, killed one of them in the most brutal way... which makes the other now dead and/or gone main characters (who witnessed the murder, no less) arguing for letting Negan live, because "everyone deserves a chance," before they left or were were ousted from the show themselves, even more laughable. So in that case no, I think the showrunners actually think that we should be interested in and rooting for this character somehow, since they even had three of their main characters change their philosophy just to argue that Negan deserves a chance. This out of nowhere change of philosophy even caused a rift among the main characters ... and broke them apart. So not only were we stuck with Negan, but the entire dynamic of the show changed to accommodate him.

It would be different if the main characters were also banded together against him, so we, the viewers, could share in their feelings.*** Then I might agree with you.  But in this case, I think it's not that we are supposed to talk about hating him... I think we are supposed to be rooting for him and wanting to know more about him, because he's just so "cool" and "witty."

*** I found Metatron to be this for me. I know some just disliked him or thought Metatron was a dud of a character, but I loved him. I found the irony of a character who knew all about humanity's stories yet didn't truly understand them until it was too late and he lost it all, completely fascinating. That storyline was one of the few redeeming things of seasons 8 and 9 for me. And by the end I was okay with his getting a little bit of redemption.

On the other hand, I am betting dollars to donuts that a Negan "redemption" is probably coming in the future for TWD... and I bet that it will be infuriating. I would list the reasons why this character is loathsome and doesn't deserve redemption - for just one example he had a harem of other men's wives he kept away from their husbands and coerced into having sex with him... and ironically that's one of the lesser evils - but the list would be too long.

24 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I’ve never watched TWD, but this perfectly describes my feelings about Sleepy Hollow. I rage-quit that show because of the way they propped up Katrina and mistreated Abbie. I will never understand what the writers were thinking there. Anyone could see the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod. Nobody wanted more Katrina.  

I didn't watch Sleepy Hollow, but this sounds like a shitty thing to do to viewers.

I don't typically get into too many shows with romance as a main factor... and it's probably a good thing because of what you are describing here: some writers' tendencies to do stuff like that to create "tension" and "shake things up."

Sadly for me, I also sometimes end up liking the unpopular pairings. With Buffy, I was more of a Buffy/Spike fan in the end than a Buffy/Angel fan (I liked them to start, but was ready for them to break up when they did - and I thought Buffy/Spike had more chemistry and seemed less older guy/younger girl). And *hangs head* on Friends, I actually preferred Joey / Rachel to Ross / Rachel and would rather Joey and Rachel had gotten together. (I know: blaspheme! Good thing I didn't post in the Friends fandom. I got enough grief in the Buffy fandom as it was.)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Joey / Rachel

I was 100% for Rachey. I shipped them hard.

[SueB]

@AwesomO4000 I don’t watch TWD but I knew about the fan outrage over Carl and the universal panning the decision received.  It sounded like it was violation of a fundamental motivation for the viewers.  Condolences. (Seriously, when shows do that it just hurts). 

I do think the Mark P. continued existence is like Negan’s omnipresence.   Although I see so much more ‘buzz’ for JDM than Mark P., I’m not sure root cause is the same.    

[Pondlass1]

I'm probably the only person in the world who's never watched an episode of Friends.  But I was an avid fan of TWD for about 4 years which is about as long as the series should have lasted.  It's running on stupid fumes now.  The zombies are not even scary anymore and the humans are just ridiculous. And I totally agree regarding Sleepy Hollow.  Can't the writers or TPTB see chemistry on screen? Why do they push a character that works into the background for one that isn't even interesting (except maybe to the writers).  

They're doing the same thing to Supernatural with Nick/Lucifer and Sickly Jack.  Honestly Andrew we just don't care!!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I’ve never watched TWD, but this perfectly describes my feelings about Sleepy Hollow. I rage-quit that show because of the way they propped up Katrina and mistreated Abbie. I will never understand what the writers were thinking there. Anyone could see the chemistry between Abbie and Ichabod. Nobody wanted more Katrina.  

I think they tried to course-correct in Season 3 but by giving Katrina a complete face-heel turn to write her off the show made the previous beefing up her role even more puzzling. All that for someone who in the end turned evil so deeply and so fast? 

She was fine of a "ghost" in Season 1 and they should have allowed the character to move on to the afterlife and find peace, enabling Ichabod to equally move on. I`m not necessarily someone who thought he needed to hook up with Abbie. They had great chemistry so I would have been open to a romance but writers screw up those dynamics more often than not after the couple got together. 

Quote

I'm probably the only person in the world who's never watched an episode of Friends.

Oh, you never saw the infamous "we were on a break" storyline that ended, well, never? That`s some of my life from the 90s I`ll never get back. And I genuinely enjoyed the show.

[tennisgurl]

The writers love of Negan and refusing to give him up is basically killing TWD, if it hasn't already. The writers love him so much, and are now seemingly setting him up for some kind of redemption (which, gross) just to keep him around anymoe due to their hard on for the guy, and its making the show unwatchable. 

Another show really struggling with a villain outstaying their welcome is Arrow, which has decided that this loser Ricardo Diaz (who calls himself The Dragon. Whatever) is the biggest badass the show has ever had, and have kept him around as the Big Bad for way longer than anyone wanted him. Its just embarrassing to watch Oliver struggle so much with a villain who is, basically just some random guy trying to get into organized crime, when he has previously taken on much bigger threats for his season arc. Yeah, we got a billionaire ninja/domestic terrorist who destroyed half the city. We got a super solider with an army of suped up lunatics with a personal grudge against Oliver,and voices in his head. You can a dark wizard who almost nuked the whole planet. You can a super genius with a years spanning revenge plan. You have an immortal assassin cult. In the crossovers, there were aliens, and freaking intradimentional Nazis! And then you have Diaz who is...just some guy who mumbles a lot. Yeah, the show has really tried to make a guy who seems more like a one and done villain of the week, and build two whole freaking arcs around him. Why?!?

And, of course, we cant talk about shows being destroyed due to the writers love of a villain without talking about Regina from Once Upon a Time. She started out as The Evil Queen from Snow White, who caused the curse which started the whole show, and ruined countless lives in her unbelievably petty revenge quest against Snow White. Or, just because she was a psychopath who enjoyed hurting people, and her many, many acts of rape, mass murder, attempted genocide, and countless other atrocities speaks to her sadistic personality. But, then the creators fell in love with Regina, and her actress, and decided that she was actually the hero all along. Not Snow and Charming, who had their lives ruined because of her. Not their daughter Emma, the prophesied Savior who was supposed to defeat Regina, who also had her life ruined. Oh no, its Regina. And so began the tale of Poor Regina, as it turns out that nothing she did was really her fault for some insane reason, and while she had no real regrets about her life of evil and murder, she is suddenly treated like the true hero of the show, despite still being  terrible and selfish, and all of her former victims have to beg her for forgiveness for having ever tried to stop her reign of terror, and almost every character is ignored or made to look bad so that they could prop up Saint Regina, our Lady of Perpetual Woobiedom. She became the star of the show, despite never really showing real remorse for her actions until way later, and only kind of, and the whole show was basically rewritten to be about her. And then, the show ends on one of the craziest notes I have ever seen in my freaking life...

Spoiler

Regina uses her magic to take the whole multiverse thats been established to exist, basically all fiction ever, and everyone who lives there, and pulls them all together into her little serfdom in Maine, and ends the series being elected Queen of Everything. Good fucking God. Never mind the massive logistical questions this raises, she never even bothered to wonder if the people living in these other worlds wanted to be dragged off to freaking Maine, or whether they had the ability to deal with threats and creatures from totally different universes (I guess Sam and Dean trying to protect the Scooby Gang was pointless! They've probably already been exterminated by Daleks or something), or why anyone would want to vote for this random wackjob who sucked them into this mess (I can only assume the heroes of the rest of the fictional multiverse were killed, imprisoned, brainwashed, or forced to vote for Regina as their new God Empress by threatening to slaughter even more innocents), and the show plays this off like a happy ending! All Hail Regina! 2+2=purple!

Seriously, I can, and have, talked about that ending at super great length a billion times, its so mind boggling insane, and the implications are so horrific and widespread. I've seen plenty of shows fall in love with their villains, but Once takes the freaking cake. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Another show really struggling with a villain outstaying their welcome is Arrow, which has decided that this loser Ricardo Diaz (who calls himself The Dragon. Whatever) is the biggest badass the show has ever had, and have kept him around as the Big Bad for way longer than anyone wanted him. Its just embarrassing to watch Oliver struggle so much with a villain who is, basically just some random guy trying to get into organized crime, when he has previously taken on much bigger threats for his season arc. Yeah, we got a billionaire ninja/domestic terrorist who destroyed half the city. We got a super solider with an army of suped up lunatics with a personal grudge against Oliver,and voices in his head. You can a dark wizard who almost nuked the whole planet. You can a super genius with a years spanning revenge plan. You have an immortal assassin cult. In the crossovers, there were aliens, and freaking intradimentional Nazis! And then you have Diaz who is...just some guy who mumbles a lot. Yeah, the show has really tried to make a guy who seems more like a one and day villain of the week, and build two whole freaking arcs around him. Why?!?

OMG, their hard-on for this guy and his 3D printer is painful. Especially, as you said, in comparism to all the previous villains. 

But then the Arrow writers were severely tone-deaf last Season with the "civil war" arc where they ended up surprised that people didn`t side equally between OTA and the noobs.  Despite writing them as horrible, self-involved, hypocritical, whiny jackasses.

I think SPN has some of those same pitfalls where the writers are surprised people might side with a character. I`ll never believe that anyone was supposed to take Dean`s side during Season 8.A. Because someone being hurt and confused to find out their next to kin didn`t even look for them for five minutes after being gone is so out of line. And the other person acting annoyed at that hurt would be greatly relatable. They were going for the opposite reaction and ended up saying "oh my" when the Season started airing and reactions poured in.

The villain-hard-on for Lucifer, I don`t even think is the whole writers room on SPN (compared to Arrow probably where everyone seems enamored with mumble mouth Diaz) but specifically Bucklemming. They should just be told to put up and shut up. Same as Berens and his Wayward Sues. Thompson was worshipping the Charlie character to unholy degrees and he was eventually told to snap out of it. Sure, he left but he didn`t get his way. If these writers have such hard-ons for specific characters, they can invite the actors to dinner in their free time or something. 

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

Condolences. (Seriously, when shows do that it just hurts). 

Yeah, thanks. It was even harder to give the show up because of the connections it has for me. The show often films scenes in and around the town I live in,*** so it was fun to watch and recognize those places in the show and what they did with them. And the "Zombie dollars," as our campus director calls them, that we get when the show films on campus here have provided for some nice improvements on the campus I work at. Our little town has a bunch of character, especially in its downtown areas and old industrial areas. Currently (the new) MacGyver seems to be filming here a lot.

*** Our little town is proud of its history of being used in films and television shows. The downtown streets have Hollywood-like placards with the various shows and movies that filmed there and the dates along the sidewalks.

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And, of course, we cant talk about shows being destroyed due to the writers love of a villain without talking about Regina from Once Upon a Time.

Good Lord, that description you gave sounds awful! I'm so glad that I never watched that show, because if that kind of thing happened after I'd spent time getting invested I would be so annoyed and disillusioned.

I wonder if the The Walking Dead people watched that show and thought "now we should do that with Negan!" Because if his redemption does come about, it's likely going to be something similar to what you described. Though that description does seem hard to top.

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And then, the show ends on one of the craziest notes I have ever seen in my freaking life...

  Reveal hidden contents

Regina uses her magic to take the whole multiverse thats been established to exist, basically all fiction ever, and everyone who lives there, and pulls them all together into her little serfdom in Maine, and ends the series being elected Queen of Everything. Good fucking God. Never mind the massive logistical questions this raises, she never even bothered to wonder if the people living in these other worlds wanted to be dragged off to freaking Maine, or whether they had the ability to deal with threats and creatures from totally different universes (I guess Sam and Dean trying to protect the Scooby Gang was pointless! They've probably already been exterminated by Daleks or something), or why anyone would want to vote for this random wackjob who sucked them into this mess (I can only assume the heroes of the rest of the fictional multiverse were killed, imprisoned, brainwashed, or forced to vote for Regina as their new God Empress by threatening to slaughter even more innocents), and the show plays this off like a happy ending! All Hail Regina! 2+2=purple!

Seriously, I can, and have, talked about that ending at super great length a billion times, its so mind boggling insane, and the implications are so horrific and widespread. I've seen plenty of shows fall in love with their villains, but Once takes the freaking cake. 

I shudder to think if what you described under those hidden comments included South Park fiction... because if you're ever seen their "Imaginationland" trilogy of episodes, you might agree that there would be some seriously f&cked up characters there that would make the Daleks seem quaint. If you see little woodland creatures, for example... run far far away. You might be tempted to try to save Kurt Russel, but it's too late for him... just go. Hee.

[ZennyKenny]

On 11/30/2018 at 9:16 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

And *hangs head* on Friends, I actually preferred Joey / Rachel to Ross / Rachel and would rather Joey and Rachel had gotten together. (I know: blaspheme! Good thing I didn't post in the Friends fandom. I got enough grief in the Buffy fandom as it was.)

I HATE the Ross/Rachel thing, but I was fine with Joey/Rachel. But personally I would rather watch stable relationships than the chaos of the whole "will they/won't they" dynamic.

[ZennyKenny]

On 12/1/2018 at 11:16 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I think SPN has some of those same pitfalls where the writers are surprised people might side with a character. I`ll never believe that anyone was supposed to take Dean`s side during Season 8.A. Because someone being hurt and confused to find out their next to kin didn`t even look for them for five minutes after being gone is so out of line. And the other person acting annoyed at that hurt would be greatly relatable. They were going for the opposite reaction and ended up saying "oh my" when the Season started airing and reactions poured in.

Ugh, so true! I didn't side with either brother because I was so mad at the writers for that crappy contrived conflict. There was so much wrongly written for both brothers in that storyline, and it was so infuriating to watch, that I actually stopped watching the show for a couple of years after that. I don't think the writers understand the power they have to push viewers away when they pull crap like this.

[tennisgurl]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:49 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

If you see little woodland creatures, for example... run far far away. You might be tempted to try to save Kurt Russel, but it's too late for him... just go. Hee.

"I’d hate to meet the kid who dreamed those up!"-Jason ;)

Honestly, thats kind of the mental imagine I got when that ending happened. Just, mass chaos followed by a totalitarian regime run by a deranged god empress. It was so nuts, I was just starring at my TV, with my mouth open like a cartoon character. And that was the happy ending we had been promised since episode one! 

[AwesomO4000]

Not sure if this is where this goes, because only a small part of it mentions Dean and Sam as compared to other characters, but here goes. I apologize if this belongs elsewhere (maybe the small talk thread?)

Brought over from the Supernatural Media thread:

23 hours ago, Res said:

 MHO, Jared is NO Chuck Norris. If they are toning the martial arts/fighting skills down to compensate, you basically have a Texas Law and Order, which is yet another very overdone procedural. I used to watch Walker a lot but only for Chuck. Without him, I wouldn't have watched it at all as it was borderline after school specially. But, whatever.

I disagree. Now I'll admit that I didn't watch much Walker, Texas Ranger, but from what few episodes I did see of that show, the two shows were nothing alike.

Law & Order - of which I did watch almost all of all 20 seasons, starting from the very first episode - is procedural, but in my opinion, it also relied on strong characterization and good writing. For me, L&O wouldn't have been nearly as engaging without first Michael Moriarty (as Ben Stone) and then especially Sam Waterston (as Jack McCoy) heading it and Jerry Orbach as Lennie Briscoe through much of the run. These characters had consistent characterization and their own personal stories during the show. I cared what happened to these characters, and I cared about their opinions and motivations concerning the cases.

Though in my opinion not as strong a show writing-wise, Law & Order: SVU nonetheless also had for much of its (still ongoing) run a whole host of its own excellent and engaging characters: Munch, Tutola, Dr. Huang, and the sometimes overly co-dependent relationship between Olivia and Elliot. This was something fairly unique, in my opinion, for a male and female character team who were just friends. Whereas Scully and Mulder became romantic, Olivia and Elliot never did, yet their relationship was complicated, strong, and sometimes borderline damaging. Their loyalty to each other and willingness to protect each other sometimes caused serious problems, including at least once to the detriment and death of an innocent civilian. Not as bad as Dean and Sam of course, but considering that Olivia and Elliot were just normal people, it was a fascinating dynamic to watch. And integral to the show during that time.

So basically, in my opinion, not at all a usual procedural, neither the original nor the offshoot. Even the third offshoot - L&O: Criminal Intent - was its own unique brand of messed up, and, for me, Vincent D'Onofrio's Robert Goren was a completely fascinating character.

Throw in generally great writing and there is a reason, in my opinion, the L&O franchise is still around over 29 years later***, and being an "overdone procedural" isn't it.

Basically, a new Walker Texas Ranger can only hope to be as good as something in the L&O franchise... in my opinion, of course.

*** With the caveat that L&O: SVU is admittedly now not as good as it used to be - it's just not the same without the Olivia / Elliot relationship. And I miss Munch - but considering this is its 21st season, some shine being off is to be expected.

[Aeryn13]

If Season 15 wasn`t the final one and presumably they "need" their episodes for their own ending, at this point I would seriously wonder if the Winchesters would be in for a cameo in this year`s Arrowverse Crisis x-over. Apparently, everyone from every show ever is gonna be in it. And they all shoot in Vancouver so it would be easy to just walk through the frame once. 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Season 15 wasn`t the final one and presumably they "need" their episodes for their own ending, at this point I would seriously wonder if the Winchesters would be in for a cameo in this year`s Arrowverse Crisis x-over. Apparently, everyone from every show ever is gonna be in it. And they all shoot in Vancouver so it would be easy to just walk through the frame once. 

Speakin of Arrow, i swore that neighborhood they filmed the ghost chase was the same one they used for Arrow s4 with Anarchy. And i had the same thought about crossing over.

[PAForrest]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Season 15 wasn`t the final one and presumably they "need" their episodes for their own ending, at this point I would seriously wonder if the Winchesters would be in for a cameo in this year`s Arrowverse Crisis x-over. Apparently, everyone from every show ever is gonna be in it. And they all shoot in Vancouver so it would be easy to just walk through the frame once. 

Yeah, I think it would be cool if they did a cameo on one of the other shows before the end. Someone could make it work.

[Aeryn13]

26 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Yeah, I think it would be cool if they did a cameo on one of the other shows before the end. Someone could make it work.

I know the shooting for the x-over is still ongoing but I doubt it`s gonna happen. If they were a DC comics show, sure, they`d already be in it. I was like "WTH???" when reading the recent announcement of who`d be in it.

I know the Js are friends with at least Stephen Amell so maybe they really do an easter-egg cameo but it wouldn`t be announced then IMO. 

They joked for years about guesting on Vampire Diaries and that never materialized. 

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

lol Legacies still exists for them to pop in on if tptb wanted them to

Haha, technically, yes but I don`t think it`s gonna happen. 

[BlueSapphire]

Even though I’ve had a love/hate relationship with the show over the years, one of the things I love is the small cast size.  Starting in the 2000s, have there been many other shows with such a small regular cast?

[Wynne88]

Of course, their idea of guesting on Vampire Diaries was to roll into town and kill all the vampires.  I can kind of see why that never came to pass.

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

Even though I’ve had a love/hate relationship with the show over the years, one of the things I love is the small cast size.  Starting in the 2000s, have there been many other shows with such a small regular cast?

Honestly, I can't think of even one. Which reminds me of the article that mentions that the success of Supernatural was based on the relationship of the brothers and that's what producers and showrunners should be looking at for the next long-lasting show. Hmmm....

[BlueSapphire]

I saw “Angel” suggested, which is kinda true, since they did have only 3 regulars in the beginning but added more later.  Maybe “The X-Files?”  

 

[DeeDee79]

59 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

I saw “Angel” suggested, which is kinda true, since they did have only 3 regulars in the beginning but added more later.  Maybe “The X-Files?”  

 

The X-Files is what popped into my mind when I read your post but you mentioned shows starting in the 2000's and it premiered in 1993. It really is a perfect example of an awesome show with a small cast. In fact I believe that David and Gillian were the only mains throughout the series until David left and Robert Patrick stepped in as his replacement. All of the other characters that popped up were recurring and the main focus was always on Mulder and Scully. It was perfect!

[Aeryn13]

You know, Arrow is in its final Season as well and they are also doing the member-berries story of "remember this from..." nostalgia beats, just like SPN.

But unlike SPN, they had the good grace to not retcon the entire show up until now and they are at least trying to be clever and touching/charming with the nostalgia beats. This is more than I can say for SPN both mean-spriritedly trying to retcons Seasons that were vastly superior and at the same time clumsily going for a best-of montage with only flimsy ties to the plot. 

I`m not saying the writing on Arrow is golden, far, far from it but I do think they are least trying for a more respectful approach to the show`s ending.   

[bethy]

I have REALLY been struck by the difference in how the Arrow and SPN showrunners are handling the ends of their shows.

I mean, I’m not a huge fan of MG over at Arrow, but at least it sounds like he and Beth Schwarz want to give fans a good ending even if they know they won’t please everyone. As opposed to Dabb’s prediction that, what, 30% will be happy.

[Aeryn13]

I just read that the  CW gave the greenlight for a backdoor Pilot for the 100. First Legacies, then Arrow, now this, they seem interested to keep working with every single showrunner but Dabb and co. Ha.

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I just read that the  CW gave the greenlight for a backdoor Pilot for the 100. First Legacies, then Arrow, now this, they seem interested to keep working with every single showrunner but Dabb and co. Ha.

They saw the writing on the wall - just like Jensen did, IMO.

[PAForrest]

On 10/24/2019 at 4:33 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I just read that the  CW gave the greenlight for a backdoor Pilot for the 100. First Legacies, then Arrow, now this, they seem interested to keep working with every single showrunner but Dabb and co. Ha.

At some point the Dabbernatural produers are going to have to admit the hard truth of the "it's not you it's me" sentiment, and that it was really all them - not us, not the CW or WB, not the viewers at large. It was them because they were terrible.