S17.E22: Doubts, Dilemmas and Drag!

[Chatty Cake]

7 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

So a girl who has had some number of sexual relationships is not "nice?" I think there is a lot wrong with that, actually. It's a misogynistic, patriarchal and judgmental attitude, especially when the same people who judge women as not "nice" don't similarly judge men for the same behavior. It's not a quaint, "old fashioned" notion. 

Deciding that Emily's sexual past told him everything he needed to know about her character is a shortcoming, not a preference. Judging someone as "less than" because they view sex differently than you do is a shortcoming, not a preference. And Brennan's total inability to actually discuss this with Emily was definitely a shortcoming, particularly with his continued insistence that he was somehow protecting her.

Well, some might say she’s too nice lol.

Brennan thought he was protecting her from slut shaming but his elusiveness made it worse than if he had just admitted he doesn’t like loose women.

[Elizzikra]

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Brennan thought he was protecting her from slut shaming but his elusiveness made it worse than if he had just admitted he doesn’t like loose women.

Brennan was slut shaming her himself. "Loose women" is another one of those phrases that just needs to die a horrible and painful death. It's just sex, for God's sake. It's something our bodies were made to do and enjoy. For centuries, our culture has demonized women who enjoy sex and it permeates every aspect of our culture. Men who have sex outside a committed relationship are "boys being boys" or "sowing wild oats" or "players." when we don't outright praise them for their charm and ability to get women into bed, we at least look the other way permissively. Women who do the same thing are "loose" or "bad girls" or "sluts" or "hos." They are judged just as harshly, if not moreso, but other women as they are men. It's disgusting. 

It's fine if an individual believes that sex should only happen in a committed relationship or within the bounds of marriage or whatever. But it's a dangerous double standard to apply that to women only and not men. And it's judgmental prudishness to use pejorative terms like "slut" or "ho" to describe women who don't share that opinion. 

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It doesn't mean that he thinks Emily is "less than" because of this, just not the one for him.

You are correct. I did assume this based on the way that Brennan looked at Emily at Michael and Chloe's wedding reception and on the way he presented himself generally. He did not say this on camera. I still believe it to be true but I have no other evidence other than his facial expressions whenever he saw her with a drink in her hand. 

[seacliffsal]

I just find all of them exhausting.  And, I better understand why they all thought coming on this show would (finally) help them find a spouse.  It takes a certain type of person to be willing to come on this show, be matched with an unknown person, and show the world how their relationships develop.  But, the real issue seems to be that they all think that all the problems are due to the other person, and most participants aren't willing to look at themselves.  So far I think only Austin and Becca have acknowledged that they each made their own mistakes.  Oh, and the show should have professional therapists to help them-NOT the so-called 'experts' who only seem to undermine the relationships.

[Chatty Cake]

2 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Brennan was slut shaming her himself. "Loose women" is another one of those phrases that just needs to die a horrible and painful death. It's just sex, for God's sake. It's something our bodies were made to do and enjoy. For centuries, our culture has demonized women who enjoy sex and it permeates every aspect of our culture. Men who have sex outside a committed relationship are "boys being boys" or "sowing wild oats" or "players." when we don't outright praise them for their charm and ability to get women into bed, we at least look the other way permissively. Women who do the same thing are "loose" or "bad girls" or "sluts" or "hos." They are judged just as harshly, if not moreso, but other women as they are men. It's disgusting. 

It's fine if an individual believes that sex should only happen in a committed relationship or within the bounds of marriage or whatever. But it's a dangerous double standard to apply that to women only and not men. And it's judgmental prudishness to use pejorative terms like "slut" or "ho" to describe women who don't share that opinion. 

You are correct. I did assume this based on the way that Brennan looked at Emily at Michael and Chloe's wedding reception and on the way he presented himself generally. He did not say this on camera. I still believe it to be true but I have no other evidence other than his facial expressions whenever he saw her with a drink in her hand. 

Brennan called more attention to the situation by using the word protect over and over. However there’s nothing wrong with a man who prefers a woman who wasn’t into getting falling down drunk and sleeping with men she barely knows.

 

 

 

 

 

knew.

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, Chatty Cake said:

Brennan called more attention to the situation by using the word protect over and over. However there’s nothing wrong with a man who prefers a woman who wasn’t into getting falling down drunk and sleeping with men she barely knows.

 

 

 

 

 

knew.

It’s fine for him to have that preference in his own spouse. It’s not fine for him to look down on Emily because her sexual values differ from his. I think he did. I think a lot of people in society do.

[Rightside]

Oh good grief, another filler episode to drag out this season even more!

Can't we just get to the final D Day, call it 0 for 5, move on to the "Where are they Now Evening Gown Competition" episode?

I'm exhausted!

 

[Auntie Anxiety]

Let me get this straight: Last week, Chloe and Michael were wringing their hands over Chloe’s lease that went another six months post Decision Day and this week they are looking at places to move into together and her lease problem isn’t even addressed? Do I have that right?

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Let me get this straight: Last week, Chloe and Michael were wringing their hands over Chloe’s lease that went another six months post Decision Day and this week they are looking at places to move into together and her lease problem isn’t even addressed? Do I have that right?

Close. Chloe claimed they were just looking to “see what’s out there” but I think she would have signed a lesser that day. Michael is still reluctant, supposedly because of their respective existing leases but I think also because he’s unsure about the marriage altogether.

[qtpye]

On 3/20/2024 at 11:47 PM, Yeah No said:

Now we have Michael acting like he's not sure he's ready for marriage.  Well, duh, then why did he go on a show and get married in the first place?  Is the truth that he's just not ready to marry CHLOE?  Well then tell her that, don't beat around the bush.  More vagueness here and not enough honesty.  If he just has cold feet well that's another thing, but If he thinks he's softening the blow he's wrong. 

Can we talk about how this man went on this show twice, when he is supposedly not ready for marriage???

[ByTor]

12 hours ago, Rightside said:

Oh good grief, another filler episode to drag out this season even more!

Pun intended? 😂 

[Chatty Cake]

16 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

It’s fine for him to have that preference in his own spouse. It’s not fine for him to look down on Emily because her sexual values differ from his. I think he did. I think a lot of people in society do.

He never said he looked down on her. Yes a lot of people do l think less of  drunks who sleep around.

[Chatty Cake]

Finally got caught up on this episode.

Becca should take her moms advice. Her mom seems to have it together. I wonder why Becca is such a mess? I don’t need to listen to her go on about grieving. And instead of crying and eating hotdogs she should get out and take a walk. Some fresh air and exercise will make her feel better. Look at Claire, she’s thriving despite her break up.

Brennan really got the short end of the stick. He isn’t as bad a dude as I originally thought.

Ewwww! Emily’s travel companion saying she would take a hike so Emily could have sex on their shared bed! What a nasty thing she must have been. No wonder Brennan was disgusted by her. I would not want to share a room with a friend that might get drunk and horny and need to sex up a shared bed. 
 

What a jerk Michael is turning into. Yes your wife wants to live together. That’s what marriage is idiot. Also it’s time for him to buy a home instead of throwing so much on rent. Time to quit spending on those ugly ass clothes and be a big boy. I was livid on her behalf when he woke her up in that ugly pink shirt to tell her he’s having doubts. What a tattoo ridden dumb ass punk! She should have snatched those hoop earrings out of his ear and shoved them up his ass!

 

Edited March 23 by Chatty Cake

[seacliffsal]

I am not sure that I remember correctly, but wasn't Chloe the one who needed to not stay at the apartment for a few days so that she could balance herself or something and Michael was surprised that he would be staying there alone?  If so, I find it interesting that she doesn't understand why Michael might want some time to himself to be able to make a decision about their marriage.  Did she think she was the only one who needed to think about things?  She has seemed 'all in' since she returned so it is interesting that Michael is now the one who needs some time to make a decision.

[Retired at last]

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

Can we talk about how this man went on this show twice, when he is supposedly not ready for marriage???

Well, maybe he THOUGHT he was until he was actually living it. And ready for marriage is not the same as being ready to commit to a person he's never met before. (That goes for all of them. Clearly, this season NONE of the people were matched with a compatible spouse, even if any of them were "ready.") I miss the days when actually making good matches was the goal. Now it is just about causing the most drama and humiliation. 

[Chatty Cake]

37 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I am not sure that I remember correctly, but wasn't Chloe the one who needed to not stay at the apartment for a few days so that she could balance herself or something and Michael was surprised that he would be staying there alone?  If so, I find it interesting that she doesn't understand why Michael might want some time to himself to be able to make a decision about their marriage.  Did she think she was the only one who needed to think about things?  She has seemed 'all in' since she returned so it is interesting that Michael is now the one who needs some time to make a decision.

I’m guessing she had to decide if she could be with such a weird dude. She’s a stand up gal to take on someone so odd. For him to now have doubts is bullshit.

[Retired at last]

I actually think HE is a lot more tolerable than she is. He is strange, but seems kind and intelligent. She is just a weirdo fake drama queen. 

[Elizzikra]

4 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

He never said he looked down on her. Yes a lot of people do l think less of  drunks who sleep around.

You’re right; he didn’t say it outright. I think his facial expressions whenever she had a drink made his opinion clear. YMMV.

And yes, a lot of people do and even the way you phrased that sentence is condescending and ;judgmental. That is what I think is a dangerous and misogynistic attitude that permeates so many aspects of the way our culture treats women. It’s awful.

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

I am not sure that I remember correctly, but wasn't Chloe the one who needed to not stay at the apartment for a few days so that she could balance herself or something and Michael was surprised that he would be staying there alone?  If so, I find it interesting that she doesn't understand why Michael might want some time to himself to be able to make a decision about their marriage.  Did she think she was the only one who needed to think about things?  She has seemed 'all in' since she returned so it is interesting that Michael is now the one who needs some time to make a decision.

It was. There’s a difference between a couple of days though and the 6-8 month timeframe that Michael has given. I think that is a long time for a married couple to be apart, though certainly many have done it and made it work. I do think that Chloe was all in once she got back and I think she senses that Michael has doubts. 

 

22 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

I’m guessing she had to decide if she could be with such a weird dude. She’s a stand up gal to take on someone so odd. For him to now have doubts is bullshit.

I don’t think Michael is weird. He has an unconventional look but he seems like a perfectly normal person, whatever that means. He isn’t any less entitled to have doubts about his match just because he dresses unconventionally. You make it sound as though he should just be grateful that someone is willing to marry him despite his taste in clothing and *gasp* his acne. Like everyone else, Michael deserves someone who loves him for who he is, not despite who he is. He isn’t the charity case you make him out to be.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

He never said he looked down on her. Yes a lot of people do l think less of  drunks who sleep around.

He didn't have to.  The look on his face said it all.  And that's one reason he kept harping on about how he was "protecting her" as if he was doing her a favor.  According to him, if he really spilled how he felt and listed the reasons why, it would be damaging to her public image. I personally don't believe that this was his motivation.  I think he was keeping his mouth shut so as not to look like the bad guy that would talk down about a woman for her lifestyle.  But stupid him, he doesn't realize we've figured him out anyway in spite of keeping his mouth shut.  And he did leak some stuff anyway.

If anyone remembers season 4 when that flight attendant Heather was matched with that guy Derek who supposedly "smoked too much" (although we were never told what, people just assumed it was weed), it was a similar situation.  She obviously looked down on his lifestyle and called it quits after only 10 days.  She kept to her word and was completely gone from the show.  A lot of people saw her as the bad guy in that situation and defended Derek. BTW he's still single and going on Spring Break with the guys at 35 while she's married and had a son in 2020.  She's kept all the details very quiet on her personal life but there's enough on her private Instagram for people that can see it to know that.  

And that's an example of the double standard right there!  The party guy got all the sympathy while people saw Heather as a "bitch".  OK he didn't have a reputation for sleeping around but I'm sure that wouldn't have mattered (and let's be honest, I'm sure he's no choirboy).  People blamed Heather for not giving things a chance with him when it was obvious to me and some others that even without the smoking he was not a good candidate for marriage.  She could have been nicer about it, but so could Brennan be nicer about Emily (and he doesn't look great even though he's trying to avoid looking bad).  It doesn't seem to matter what a woman does in this type of situation!  Even when the tables are almost turned people who adhere to a double standard between men and women see the guy in a more positive light and don't disrespect him for his lifestyle, while the woman that can't accept it is seen as the "bitch".

[Gator Stud]

5 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

What a jerk Michael is turning into. Yes your wife wants to live together. That’s what marriage is idiot. Also it’s time for him to buy a home instead of throwing so much on rent. Time to quit spending on those ugly ass clothes and be a big boy. I was livid on her behalf when he woke her up in that ugly pink shirt to tell her he’s having doubts. What a tattoo ridden dumb ass punk! She should have snatched those hoop earrings out of his ear and shoved them up his ass!

So when CHLOE needed time apart- that was cool!  But Michael wanting time apart makes him a jerk.  If someone told me that they wanted to foster 5 problemed teens who no one will foster, and a million animals, AND and expensive rental, I'd be out too.  Did she even ASK Michael about what his dreams were.  I didnt see that.  Does Michael dreams even matter? Do you see the clothes he wears and the Range Rover he drives?  Do you think he is going to let some troubled kid, key his car or let some old goat near his car?   He is city folk, not country folk.  Chloe must be on Special K, if she thinks he is going to get a spec of dirt on his Gucci's. 

Edited March 23 by Gator Stud

[Gator Stud]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

And yes, a lot of people do and even the way you phrased that sentence is condescending and ;judgmental. That is what I think is a dangerous and misogynistic attitude that permeates so many aspects of the way our culture treats women. It’s awful.

Do you think she remembers sleeping with guys?  I think she doesnt.  I think probably some guys probably took advantage of her while she was wasted.  She doesnt seem like wife material at this point in her life.  Maybe later she will be. But for now she seems like she wants to still ho it out. Its not sexists to call Emily out for her trampy behavior.  Guys are called all sorts of names when they ho it out. Here are some of the names.  Ho, bitch, whore, dog, are all part of this list.  Why do you think it is sexist to call Emily out for being kinda skanky. She boasted about it.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Thesaurus:promiscuous_man

[Gator Stud]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

He didn't have to.  The look on his face said it all.  And that's one reason he kept harping on about how he was "protecting her" as if he was doing her a favor. 

You are judging him because he doesn't want to be a self admitted skanky woman. Why would she ever tell a man she just married that she likes one-night stands, and that no man has ever called her back?  What was Brennan supposed to think of his new wife? What I would be thinking is that this woman probably gave 365 bjs in the past year and has she been tested? And then to see the drunk behavior on top of this? Why do you think it is that no man has ever called her back?  Was it the mens' fault or Emily's fault?  I think that some people here are on Team Women, but they are not looking at the womens' behavior. 

[Yeah No]

9 minutes ago, Gator Stud said:

You are judging him because he doesn't want to be a self admitted skanky woman. Why would she ever tell a man she just married that she likes one-night stands, and that no man has ever called her back?  What was Brennan supposed to think of his new wife? What I would be thinking is that this woman probably gave 365 bjs in the past year and has she been tested? And then to see the drunk behavior on top of this? Why do you think it is that no man has ever called her back?  Was it the mens' fault or Emily's fault?  I think that some people here are on Team Women, but they are not looking at the womens' behavior. 

Men usually don't tell women that they engage in that sort of behavior because they know it might put them off.  I am sure I was not told the truth by men in my past either.  But it is still more socially acceptable for men to engage in this behavior than women and it is still less socially acceptable for a woman to engage in it than a man in our society.  And yes, I am looking at the behavior. 

I think it's brave that Emily has admitted to it publicly.  I know virtually no women would have been that open about it decades ago.  They're generally still not because they know people would judge them for it.  Unfortunately there are still a lot of people out there that would call Emily a "ho" or "floozie" or "loose woman" while they would never use those kinds of insulting terms for a man that did the exact same thing.  The sad thing is that there are a lot of men out there who would engage in that behavior themselves that would still judge a woman for it.  And that's probably at least part of the reason Emily hasn't gotten called for a second date.  If she admits to it or gives the impression that she engages in it, it's unfortunately going to work against her.  Is it stupid for her to do that?  Perhaps, but the double standard about this is still unfair to women and to her.  Also, it's not fair to assume that her behavior is that extreme even if she admits to engaging in that behavior.  She may not be doing this every day or week or whatever someone might assume. 

That said, Brennan strikes me as a pretty uptight sort of guy.  Another guy might not have been so hung up on her behavior and wouldn't have jumped to all sorts of negative conclusions about her.  Another guy might have at least given her a chance.   I've seen people that engage in that sort of lifestyle meet the right person and suddenly settle down and not want to do it anymore.  I'm not saying Emily would necessarily do that but it is possible.  If she was looking to get married perhaps she was ready to stop bed hopping.  Did we ever hear what her thoughts were on this?  No, but obviously Brennan was shut off from hearing her and jumped to his own conclusions right away.  I can't imagine that she seriously thought she could get married and still maintain that kind of lifestyle.  If so I'd say she lives in a dream world and needs help.  But I have a feeling there's a whole side to this from her perspective that we haven't been allowed to see because the show itself is making her look as bad as it possibly can.

[Retired at last]

I think that Brennan just said that he thought that being in their 30's was a little late to still be a party girl. At the time, I thought he was just referring to her drinking. But, if Emily actually said that she enjoyed one-night stands, then I am sure that also added to his distain.

She is like Virginia from a few seasons ago, who didn't want to give up partying, although she was in her 20s, I think. In fact, we even referred to her as VirGINia.

[Gator Stud]

19 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Men usually don't tell women that they engage in that sort of behavior because they know it might put them off.  I am sure I was not told the truth by men in my past either. 

You got it! I never asked; I never told. That's on Emily.  Had she not said anything, we would have never known.  Its not like I have never had a one night stand.  But that was never my primary dating strategy- like Emily. And if it was, I would never admit it to my new wife that I just met days ago.

And then her doing all those shots at one time with Brennan, that would have put me under the table. She could have taken all of those shots on the down low and acted subdued like Austin, and nobody would have noticed. But Emily was mostly, woo-hoo!! I dont really judge Emily by her sex life.  I dont think she is a bad person just because she sleeps with alot of men. But most men would have a hard time marrying her when she brags about it. If the genders were reversed, I dont things women would be flocking to men who admit they like one-night stands and heavy drinking as marriage partners. Some things are best left unsaid.

[Elizzikra]

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Do you think she remembers sleeping with guys?  I think she doesnt.  I think probably some guys probably took advantage of her while she was wasted.

Having sex with a person who is too drunk to consent isn't "taking advantage." It is rape.

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Do you think she remembers sleeping with guys?  I think she doesnt.  I think probably some guys probably took advantage of her while she was wasted.  She doesnt seem like wife material at this point in her life. 

You think guys "took advantage of her" (nice euphimism... not) when she was drunk yet someone EMILY is the one who isn't marriage material in this scenario?

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Guys are called all sorts of names when they ho it out. Here are some of the names.  Ho, bitch, whore, dog, are all part of this list. 

Urban dictionary may list these as names for men who have sex with multiple partners and/or outside committed relationships, but I have never heard anyone refer to a man as "bitch," "ho," "whore," or "dog." They are all ugly words and I wish they would all be cut from our vocabulary along with "skank" and "ho it out." Those are all judgmental terms when applied to either gender - terms for doing something our bodies are made to do and enjoy. Those pejorative terms are all much more common, and disdainfully, applied to women than men.

Why is this a problem? Why is this not just a matter of personal preference? Because our judgments about women and sex all fuel our culture and conversations about every single issue involving women, which means every single important issue of our day. Equality in the workplace, sexual violence, equal rights under the law, abortion - I could go on and on. All that language and the value statements that go along with it all fuel attitudes of "if you didn't want to be pregnant, you should have kept your knees closed," or "if she didn't want to get raped, why was she drunk" or "if she didn't want to have sex, why did she wear a short skirt or why was she alone in a room with him." Decisions about sex should be about sex, but our society uses a woman's choice to have sex and under what circumstances and with how many partners to make judgements about her overall worth as a person. Hence "I don't want my son to marry a ho" or "good girls don't have sex outside marriage." Women should not be judged to be a lesser person - less moral, less worthy, less valuable, less respectable, less anything - because they have sex. And sure, men shouldn't be either but by and large they aren't; they definitely experience it to a much lesser degree than women. Hence your use of the phrase "take advantage of" when what you really meant was "sexually assault a woman who is sufficiently incapacitated to consent."

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You got it! I never asked; I never told. That's on Emily.  Had she not said anything, we would have never known.  Its not like I have never had a one night stand.  But that was never my primary dating strategy- like Emily. And if it was, I would never admit it to my new wife that I just met days ago.

Your statement that she shouldn't have told indicates that there is something shameful about it. Emily doesn't think there is and she shouldn't. I'd far rather be in a relationship with someone who has had multiple sexual partners and is honest about it than someone who lies about it (or as you say "admits it." Look at your language - what do we admit to? Crimes. Misdeeds. The subtext - one night stands and women who have them are bad, wrong, shameful. When what they really are is sexual acts between consenting adults. And if there isn't consent - well - go back to my first sentence. In that case, Emily is a survivor of rape, and still has no reason to be ashamed or to hide her "past."

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I dont think she is a bad person just because she sleeps with alot of men.

Your language would indicate otherwise. Like when you referred to her as a "skanky ho."

People have sex. We don't know if Emily had one one-night stand or a thousand. She enjoyed it. If Brennan didn't want a wife that had one-night stands, fine. But be honest about it. Treating it as a shameful secret tells me all I need to know about Brennan's attitudes about women. He can decide that he prefers a less sexually experienced wife but he owed it to Emily to tell her that and to face the potentially uncomfortable truth about himself (that he has some attitudes and judgements about women who have sex outside committed relationships). Hell - he might have grown from the experience. As it is, he is still just the same uptight, old-fashioned prude he was when he started the show.

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 I think it's brave that Emily has admitted to it publicly.  I know virtually no women would have been that open about it decades ago.  

Samantha Jones, original recipe Sex and the City. I wasn't a particular fan of the show or the character, but I did think it was ground-breaking to introduce a female character who took a traditionally male attitude about sex. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have opened minds, which is why we still see so much "ho," "slut," "whore," "bitch," "tramp," "floozy," etc. 

Edited March 24 by Elizzikra

[Maximadc]

18 hours ago, qtpye said:

Can we talk about how this man went on this show twice, when he is supposedly not ready for marriage???

He could be ready for marriage, but not five foster kids, 573 animals, and permanently moving together after two months of knowing each other. He is another man who is afraid of the woman he was paired with because although originally fine, she day after day reveals her crazy side and makes Mike anxious about their future.

[Maximadc]

Before Samantha, it was Blanche from GG. However, women have more physical limitations for having as many partners as men. They also have various health issues as a result of these choices; therefore, they naturally have fewer partners during their lives.
It is also important to understand if Emily has one-night stands as her choice or because of her desperation to look for a man. Based on her demanding sex from Brennan while under the influence, it could be either. 
Emily seems happy right now, and I think she dropped the idea of marriage for at least 5 years. She should take care of her health and revisit this idea when ready.

Edited March 24 by Maximadc
Cut

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

You got it! I never asked; I never told. That's on Emily.  Had she not said anything, we would have never known.  Its not like I have never had a one night stand.  But that was never my primary dating strategy- like Emily. And if it was, I would never admit it to my new wife that I just met days ago.

And then her doing all those shots at one time with Brennan, that would have put me under the table. She could have taken all of those shots on the down low and acted subdued like Austin, and nobody would have noticed. But Emily was mostly, woo-hoo!! I dont really judge Emily by her sex life.  I dont think she is a bad person just because she sleeps with alot of men. But most men would have a hard time marrying her when she brags about it. If the genders were reversed, I dont things women would be flocking to men who admit they like one-night stands and heavy drinking as marriage partners. Some things are best left unsaid.

I hate to say this, but judging from how many women actually marry convicted male murderers and other men with socially unacceptable pasts that they are fully aware of, it's obvious to me that this kind of thing doesn't work the same way in reverse.  Men in general seem to have higher standards for their women when it comes to socially unacceptable behavior based on sheer statistics.  There's even a new show on Lifetime about "Prison Brides".  There's no such phenomenon for men marrying women in prison.  A brief Google search confirms that it's not even a thing. 

So while fewer women might be down with marrying a man with a "sexual/partying past" or even "present", it's likely not as avoided by women who are looking to marry men as it is by men looking to marry women even if everyone is honest and open about their behavior.  And THAT's part of the double standard right there, and why I don't agree with you.

[JenE4]

50 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I hate to say this, but judging from how many women actually marry convicted male murderers and other men with socially unacceptable pasts that they are fully aware of, it's obvious to me that this kind of thing doesn't work the same way in reverse.  Men in general seem to have higher standards for their women when it comes to socially unacceptable behavior based on sheer statistics.  There's even a new show on Lifetime about "Prison Brides".  There's no such phenomenon for men marrying women in prison.  A brief Google search confirms that it's not even a thing. 

So while fewer women might be down with marrying a man with a "sexual/partying past" or even "present", it's likely not as avoided by women who are looking to marry men as it is by men looking to marry women even if everyone is honest and open about their behavior.  And THAT's part of the double standard right there, and why I don't agree with you.

You apparently have missed out on Love After Lockup. It’s pretty evenly split with men and women on the outside marrying/pursuing female/male inmates.

[Yeah No]

24 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

You apparently have missed out on Love After Lockup. It’s pretty evenly split with men and women on the outside marrying/pursuing female/male inmates.

That doesn't mean it's evenly split in the world.  I wonder how hard they had to try to find examples of the other way around.  No matter how I phrase the search absolutely NOTHING comes up about men marrying female inmates.  It's ALL about women marrying male inmates.  And I consider that pretty telling.

[JenE4]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

That doesn't mean it's evenly split in the world.  I wonder how hard they had to try to find examples of the other way around.  No matter how I phrase the search absolutely NOTHING comes up about men marrying female inmates.  It's ALL about women marrying male inmates.  And I consider that pretty telling.

I was just pointing out there is a whole different TV show that has “prison grooms,” but somehow it’s not represented in Google so it doesn’t count. This is a false equivalency either way. It has nothing to do with the show.

I am shocked that this entire board hasn’t been “red zoned” or at least “yellow zoned” with the way these threads have devolved into the use of slut-shaming slurs and other types of derogatory assumptions and insults about what these people must “really” be like offscreen. Like, jeez, people, can we just keep to what we see onscreen? We have very clear new guidelines about inclusivity and respectful speech, and some of what is posted on this board in the last few weeks is absolutely appalling. These are real people on this show. Yeah, we can be a little silly in our comments on what we see onscreen. But a few people on this board make repeated assumptions and character assassinations about things they just somehow “know” by looking at them (eg, Becca is lazy and smells) and then not only that but bringing those presumptions out of the show and commenting on overall society (eg, Emily is a slut who has had X number of one-night stands and obviously no man wants to marry a slut). It would be one thing if these comments were just posted once, but the judgmental posters just keep posting these same assumptions and rants over and over again. Can we just talk about what we’re seeing on our screens per episode? 

#communityconcerns

[Yeah No]

Just now, JenE4 said:

I was just pointing out there is a whole different TV show that has “prison grooms,” but somehow it’s not represented in Google so it doesn’t count. This is a false equivalency either way. It has nothing to do with the show.

I am shocked that this entire board hasn’t been “red zoned” or at least “yellow zoned” with the way these threads have devolved into the use of slut-shaming slurs and other types of derogatory assumptions and insults about what these people must “really” be like offscreen. Like, jeez, people, can we just keep to what we see onscreen? We have very clear new guidelines about inclusivity and respectful speech, and some of what is posted on this board in the last few weeks is absolutely appalling. These are real people on this show. Yeah, we can be a little silly in our comments on what we see onscreen. But a few people on this board make repeated assumptions and character assassinations about things they just somehow “know” by looking at them (eg, Becca is lazy and smells) and then not only that but bringing those presumptions out of the show and commenting on overall society (eg, Emily is a slut who has had X number of one-night stands and obviously no man wants to marry a slut). It would be one thing if these comments were just posted once, but the judgmental posters just keep posting these same assumptions and rants over and over again. Can we just talk about what we’re seeing on our screens per episode? 

#communityconcerns

Thank you, I agree with you 100% about everything.  You, me and at least a couple of others are similarly upset about the frankly sexist shaming and character assassinations happening here, and that's what we're reacting to so strongly.  These insulting comments are precisely what got other threads shut down on the board recently.  Do we really want that to happen here?

And I'm sure you know this but there's a difference between criticizing these people's behavior and insulting them personally in such a nasty fashion.  It's one thing to wonder if they are lying, acting or delusional and another to conjecture that they "must smell" or are lazy.  If we see evidence of poor hygiene or laziness on screen, maybe, but when that's not even a thing on the show and the person is a successful business owner, it's not.  It's one thing to speculate whether a person has a drinking problem, or is engaging in immature behavior not suitable for a marriage, but quite another to call them a drunk, slut, "ho" that no man would want and all the rest.  Thanks for posting about this!

[Chatty Cake]

23 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

You’re right; he didn’t say it outright. I think his facial expressions whenever she had a drink made his opinion clear. YMMV.

And yes, a lot of people do and even the way you phrased that sentence is condescending and ;judgmental. That is what I think is a dangerous and misogynistic attitude that permeates so many aspects of the way our culture treats women. It’s awful.

It was. There’s a difference between a couple of days though and the 6-8 month timeframe that Michael has given. I think that is a long time for a married couple to be apart, though certainly many have done it and made it work. I do think that Chloe was all in once she got back and I think she senses that Michael has doubts. 

 

I don’t think Michael is weird. He has an unconventional look but he seems like a perfectly normal person, whatever that means. He isn’t any less entitled to have doubts about his match just because he dresses unconventionally. You make it sound as though he should just be grateful that someone is willing to marry him despite his taste in clothing and *gasp* his acne. Like everyone else, Michael deserves someone who loves him for who he is, not despite who he is. He isn’t the charity case you make him out to be.

It’s not condescending or judgmental to not think much of ladies who drink to excess and sleep with dudes they don’t know. Brennan had every right to be disappointed and disgusted. Did he need to keep saying he was protecting her? Perhaps not but that’s what he thought was the gentlemanly thing to do.

It’s fine that you like Michael. You don’t see the weird douchebag that I see. He acted so butt hurt from getting ditched at the alter And they give him a lovely lady and he acts like she’s not good enough for his weird ass.

 

Edited March 24 by Chatty Cake

[Chatty Cake]

10 hours ago, Maximadc said:

He could be ready for marriage, but not five foster kids, 573 animals, and permanently moving together after two months of knowing each other. He is another man who is afraid of the woman he was paired with because although originally fine, she day after day reveals her crazy side and makes Mike anxious about their future.

Chloe was being silly when she said that. She doesn’t know that fostering isn’t that simple.  I don’t see wanting to do good as crazy. I do see buying lots of ugly clothes as a bit loony.

[Chatty Cake]

16 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

You got it! I never asked; I never told. That's on Emily.  Had she not said anything, we would have never known.  Its not like I have never had a one night stand.  But that was never my primary dating strategy- like Emily. And if it was, I would never admit it to my new wife that I just met days ago.

And then her doing all those shots at one time with Brennan, that would have put me under the table. She could have taken all of those shots on the down low and acted subdued like Austin, and nobody would have noticed. But Emily was mostly, woo-hoo!! I dont really judge Emily by her sex life.  I dont think she is a bad person just because she sleeps with alot of men. But most men would have a hard time marrying her when she brags about it. If the genders were reversed, I dont things women would be flocking to men who admit they like one-night stands and heavy drinking as marriage partners. Some things are best left unsaid.

Amen! And didn’t she rip down a shower curtain and lay down on him? She sounds like an aggressive drunk when the cameras go down and the shots kick in. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s taken advantage of multiple men in her past.

[Madding crowd]

I think Brennan had the right to be upset with Emily ripping down a shower curtain and trying to force sex on him and passing out on top of him trying to do the same. Both men and women have the right to say no. I think Emily does have a drinking problem and may do things when drunk she wouldn’t do sober.

[JKL845]

15 hours ago, JenE4 said:

 

I am shocked that this entire board hasn’t been “red zoned” or at least “yellow zoned” with the way these threads have devolved into the use of slut-shaming slurs and other types of derogatory assumptions and insults about what these people must “really” be like offscreen. Like, jeez, people, can we just keep to what we see onscreen? We have very clear new guidelines about inclusivity and respectful speech, and some of what is posted on this board in the last few weeks is absolutely appalling. These are real people on this show. Yeah, we can be a little silly in our comments on what we see onscreen. But a few people on this board make repeated assumptions and character assassinations about things they just somehow “know” by looking at them (eg, Becca is lazy and smells) and then not only that but bringing those presumptions out of the show and commenting on overall society (eg, Emily is a slut who has had X number of one-night stands and obviously no man wants to marry a slut). It would be one thing if these comments were just posted once, but the judgmental posters just keep posting these same assumptions and rants over and over again. Can we just talk about what we’re seeing on our screens per episode? 

#communityconcerns

Thank You!! Yes, so sick of seeing this happening on both sides! A few posters saying sexist, mean spirited things about the men and men in general on this board. Things they attribute to the men that was never seen on the show. Just in the fantasy world in their own mind. Some people (on both sides) seem to be projecting their own issues on these people. Over and over again. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

16 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

It’s not condescending or judgmental to not think much of ladies who drink to excess and sleep with dudes they don’t know. Brennan had every right to be disappointed and disgusted. Did he need to keep saying he was protecting her? Perhaps not but that’s what he thought was the gentlemanly thing to do.

When did we learn his objection to her was based on her drinking and sleeping around?  I remember at the beginning, when he was asked about his attraction to her, or lack thereof, he said he didn't want to say because he didn't want to hurt her.  I remember the "hurt her" for sure.  I assumed it was because of her looks, or her personality--something she can't really do anything about.

When did he started talking about "protecting" her?  That could mean he was protecting her from being hurt that he wasn't attracted to her, and not protecting her reputation or whatever. 

In fact, he mentioned her personality, saying she was too negative.  That one I can actually see as a misunderstanding, because he specifically said she "hates" so many things.  I wonder if she's the type who's says things like "I hate this traffic" or "I hate having to wait for a table," and she considers them observations and he considers it negativity.

I do think he might be turned off by her drinking.  Early on he said his dad doesn't drink water, he drinks vodka. 

Anyway, has he specifically said why he doesn't find her attractive?

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, JKL845 said:

Thank You!! Yes, so sick of seeing this happening on both sides! A few posters saying sexist, mean spirited things about the men and men in general on this board. Things they attribute to the men that was never seen on the show. Just in the fantasy world in their own mind. Some people (on both sides) seem to be projecting their own issues on these people. Over and over again. 

Speaking for myself here, but there's not one thing I've posted about the men that isn't traceable to actual behavior I've seen of them on screen.  I have not called any of them insulting sexist names.  Just about the worst I've called Brennan is a possible narcissist but that could be said of either a man or a woman.  His disrespect for Emily has not been questioned by either side, it's just that some people think Emily deserves that disrespect.  I don't.  I have not doubted that she possibly has a drinking problem but I have not supported disrespecting her on that account and whatever she does in the bedroom, nor do I think she deserves to be called names like "floozie" "ho" and "loose woman" for it either.

And speaking of projection, I'd like to know how anyone can assume any of these people "smells" just because they've "known people like them".  Becca's hygiene has been brought up repeatedly.  Like anyone knows how often she bathes!  There's more on-camera evidence for Brennan's lack of respect for Emily's lifestyle than Becca's supposed lack of hygiene!  Has anyone seen dirt on her?  No!  And yet some are convinced of this and that she must be "lazy" despite a lot of evidence of her having a very successful photography business.

And as far as Austin goes, Becca herself said he was gaslighting her so talking about that comes directly from her mouth and what I've seen him do on the show, not from "projection".  I have seen him leading her on with my own two eyes, it's not "projection".  He is on camera acting like he's into her so how that could be projection I don't know.  I have empathized with Becca's feelings having been in a similar situation once, but I have not projected my own experience onto hers.  I have tried to understand her perspective in the unique set of circumstances she is facing on this stupid show. 

If there was indeed producer manipulation and things left on the cutting room floor that would make the men look worse and the women better it's not projection to talk about that either.  Nor to conclude based on what was seen that someone might be a narcissist.  Perhaps "speculation" is a better word.  But that's what everyone does here all the time.  It's fine to speculate but it's not OK to denigrate someone's lifestyle.  I don't support Emily's lifestyle either but I still wouldn't call her the sexist put downs I've seen her called here.  I have never once called a woman any of those things nor a man either.  It's fine to disapprove of someone's lifestyle but to call them those names is another story altogether.

[Yeah No]

14 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

When did we learn his objection to her was based on her drinking and sleeping around?  I remember at the beginning, when he was asked about his attraction to her, or lack thereof, he said he didn't want to say because he didn't want to hurt her.  I remember the "hurt her" for sure.  I assumed it was because of her looks, or her personality--something she can't really do anything about.

When did he started talking about "protecting" her?  That could mean he was protecting her from being hurt that he wasn't attracted to her, and not protecting her reputation or whatever. 

<snip>

I do think he might be turned off by her drinking.  Early on he said his dad doesn't drink water, he drinks vodka. 

Anyway, has he specifically said why he doesn't find her attractive?

No, Brennan has avoided disclosing why he doesn't find Emily attractive and a lot of people have been speculating that it's his disapproval of her lifestyle that's the reason, and also why he's claiming that he's "protecting her" by not revealing that reason.  I have seen a lot of speculation from both Brennan supporters and non-supporters that he doesn't respect her for her lifestyle despite what he's said on camera about caring about her.  He can care about her and not respect her at the same time.  I don't think that's a stretch to conclude based on his behavior and overall demeanor toward her.  Why would he be putting it in those terms of "protecting her" if there wasn't something he knew about her that he thought was potentially damaging to her?  And what would that be other than her lifestyle?  It's hard to imagine.

I personally feel that Brennan's primary motivation for not revealing why he isn't attracted to her is to protect himself from looking bad on camera, not necessarily to protect her.  He has resisted saying anything on camera about this to a really extreme degree, and seems overly concerned with how he looks to the public.  It's not just me that thinks that - it has been mentioned by the women on the show too, which is why I feel that way.  I'm not just speculating here without reasons to back it up.

[Chatty Cake]

4 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

When did we learn his objection to her was based on her drinking and sleeping around?  I remember at the beginning, when he was asked about his attraction to her, or lack thereof, he said he didn't want to say because he didn't want to hurt her.  I remember the "hurt her" for sure.  I assumed it was because of her looks, or her personality--something she can't really do anything about.

When did he started talking about "protecting" her?  That could mean he was protecting her from being hurt that he wasn't attracted to her, and not protecting her reputation or whatever. 

In fact, he mentioned her personality, saying she was too negative.  That one I can actually see as a misunderstanding, because he specifically said she "hates" so many things.  I wonder if she's the type who's says things like "I hate this traffic" or "I hate having to wait for a table," and she considers them observations and he considers it negativity.

I do think he might be turned off by her drinking.  Early on he said his dad doesn't drink water, he drinks vodka. 

Anyway, has he specifically said why he doesn't find her attractive?

He never said what physically wasn’t his thing. I’m guessing the smirking was a turn off. There were times she looked terrifying. Especially if she was downing a lot of alcohol. 
And I know I’ll get lambasted for saying this but heavy drinkers often have a sour smell from the alcohol. Not that that’s what was happening but it’s a possibility. He did dislike her negativity and I noticed it more as the show went on. There’s also the ripping down of the shower curtain and attacking him. I’m not sure how early on that happened but it definitely affected him.

[Retired at last]

9 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

When did we learn his objection to her was based on her drinking and sleeping around? 

All I remember is when I heard him say, almost as an aside, that he thought 30 was a bit too old to be a party girl. Or maybe he said partying, not sure. But, I did hear that.

[Elizzikra]

9 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

 

When did he started talking about "protecting" her?  That could mean he was protecting her from being hurt that he wasn't attracted to her, and not protecting her reputation or whatever. 

The first time I remember it was during the visit with Dr. Pia, right after the honeymoon. She asked him what specifically he didn’t like or was bothering him and he said “we aren’t doing that.” That’s the first instance I remember, without rewatching, that he used the language of “protecting” Emily. This is even though both Emily and Dr. Pia noted that Emily didn’t need Brennan to protect her. I thought it was bullshit but at least he is consistent in using the same bullshit excuse throughout the season.

[Retired at last]

Just a random thought. . . you know how production always finds problems for couples to have during the show - like if one spouse won't say, "I love you," or if they can't agree on where to live, etc. And those issues all magically get resolved at or right before Decision Day.  So, what if "trying to protect her" is Brennan's assigned story and he is sticking to his script? Maybe it was obvious that they weren't going to make it, so they went this route? Yeah, I don't think so, either, but it did occur to me.

[Gator Stud]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:15 PM, Elizzikra said:

Urban dictionary may list these as names for men who have sex with multiple partners and/or outside committed relationships, but I have never heard anyone refer to a man as "bitch," "ho," "whore," or "dog."

Bitch has evolved over the decades, like, when i was growing up it meant female dog and a derogatory term for women.  Then it started evolving away from gender.  I would credit rap and hip hop for starting the evolution.  Bitches evolved to mean, "current girlfriend".   Then rappers starting using it as a derogatory term against men. I would say mid 90s.  Then others started using it as derogatory against men.  Then it further evolved with women using it in a non-derogatory way.  Like, "You are my bitches!". The Nword evolved like that too.  To be called the Nword now, could be considered a complement, depending on who is saying it and in what context. 

 

On 3/23/2024 at 7:15 PM, Elizzikra said:

Samantha Jones, original recipe Sex and the City. I wasn't a particular fan of the show or the character, but I did think it was ground-breaking to introduce a female character who took a traditionally male attitude about sex. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have opened minds, which is why we still see so much "ho," "slut," "whore," "bitch," "tramp," "floozy," etc. 

I saw this show.  I loved Samantha Jones. If I had to hang out with any of them, I would have chosen her character, and it would not even be close.  The others were boring. 

Samantha was a very powerful woman, with powerful connections in NYC and LA.  I would say she was more Boss Queen than a ho.  And this is the most important part: She was NOT trying to get married or have any relationship and she was very upfront about it. And she generally got with manwhores so it was all good. They liked the fact that she was not into commitment. She was not desperate. Desperate for sex, yes.  But not for men. 

And sometimes she had two or three night stands.  And the guys always called her back for more.  A few she had to get rid of because they were getting too needy and attached.  Emily is no Samantha. Emily cant even get pass the one night stand.

The other ladies wanted a knight in shining armor to save them.  Samantha was not into depending on men.  She knew that if you gave a man the ability to feed you, he could starve you if he feels that you are not acting the right way.

Edited March 25 by Gator Stud

[Gator Stud]

15 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Speaking for myself here, but there's not one thing I've posted about the men that isn't traceable to actual behavior I've seen of them on screen.  I have not called any of them insulting sexist names.  Just about the worst I've called Brennan is a possible narcissist but that could be said of either a man or a woman.  His disrespect for Emily has not been questioned by either side, it's just that some people think Emily deserves that disrespect.  I don't.  I have not doubted that she possibly has a drinking problem but I have not supported disrespecting her on that account and whatever she does in the bedroom, nor do I think she deserves to be called names like "floozie" "ho" and "loose woman" for it either.

I agree with you about the smelling part, although I thought Amelia and especially Bennet were smelling because their feet was dirty and their hair was ratty. But I remember when our boy Chris ("Its da face!") was wilding it out and people calling him a manwhore. Chris said that he didnt like Paige because of her face, but then kept on having sex with her, while having sex with his baby mamma.  He got called out pretty harshly on primetimer.  Some thought he was getting all the shit because he was a Black man, but it turned out that he was getting shit because he was a douchebag manwhore. So he deserved it in my opinion. I dont know if anybody ever called him a skank, but he was a skank, who wasnt ready for marriage.  People called him all sorts of other bad names.

Puke was trashed too. Not for being a manwhore, though. Emily needs to respect herself. All I saw the whole season is her desperation and then anger after her rejection. She should sit down with a shrink and figure out why guys never call her after the first date. 

[Lindz]

Was Clare really expecting a cordial relationship with Cam after she called him a liar??? 🤨 GET REAL!!!

Edited March 26 by Lindz

[Yeah No]

18 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

I agree with you about the smelling part, although I thought Amelia and especially Bennet were smelling because their feet was dirty and their hair was ratty. But I remember when our boy Chris ("Its da face!") was wilding it out and people calling him a manwhore. Chris said that he didnt like Paige because of her face, but then kept on having sex with her, while having sex with his baby mamma.  He got called out pretty harshly on primetimer.  Some thought he was getting all the shit because he was a Black man, but it turned out that he was getting shit because he was a douchebag manwhore. So he deserved it in my opinion. I dont know if anybody ever called him a skank, but he was a skank, who wasnt ready for marriage.  People called him all sorts of other bad names.

Puke was trashed too. Not for being a manwhore, though. Emily needs to respect herself. All I saw the whole season is her desperation and then anger after her rejection. She should sit down with a shrink and figure out why guys never call her after the first date. 

At least what you thought about Bennet and Amelia was based on what you saw on the show.  I thought their bare feet didn't look too hygienic myself but again, based on what I saw with my eyes, not something I pulled out of the ether based on my experience with someone in my personal life.

Also, men like Chris and Puke were doing particularly despicable things to their spouses and like you say, probably deserved being called those names.  Emily might have personal failings and a drinking problem but is she on that same level of evil?  I don't think so.  And I'm even including that make out session with the Aussie guy at the bar especially if she was doing it after she and Brennan had agreed that they were going nowhere and she was above board about it with the show.  I've been saying I don't think she deserves the particularly nasty names she's been called, not that any other woman would either based on the behavior we're talking about here.  I think there's an ethical difference there.

Edited March 26 by Yeah No
I's Amelia, not whatever I wrote, lol.