May December (2023)

[SeanC]

Todd Haynes' latest blend of satire/melodrama is loosely inspired by the lives of Vili Fualaau and the late pedophile Mary Kay Letourneau. We're introduced to the household of Joe (Charles Melton, a long way from Riverdale) and Gracie Atherton-Yoo (Julianne Moore, longtime Haynes collaborator). Gracie molested Joe when he was 13 and an employee at the pet shop she managed, and after becoming pregnant by him and serving a jail sentence, they married upon her release and had two more children. Into this inherently tense situation arrives Elizabeth Berry (Natalie Portman), the star of a TV medical procedural Norah's Ark, who is going to be playing Gracie in a TV movie and wants to learn more about the subject of her portrayal.

A number of reviews and comments have described May December as camp, zeroing in on the impact of the deliberately discordant, melodramatic use of music at certain points, though Haynes himself has disagreed with this and has called the score an attempt to jolt the audience's engagement level. I'm not sure the use of music really adds much to the proceedings, but in any case, there's a number of different things at play here, from a comedic examination of the media industry's use of scandals as grist for entertainment, to a bit of a satire of method acting, to a more serious examination of how the stunted Joe is pushed into reckoning with the seriousness of what was done to him.

Awards discussion for the film is rapidly cohering into a push for Melton, who is excellent as Joe, the film's most obviously sympathetic character. Moore and Portman are both in top form as well, though what they're asked to do is a lot less naturalistic and a bit more opaque from an audience perspective. At times it seems like Haynes is playing with a dynamic akin to Ingmar Bergman's Persona (see: the poster), other times calling back to the Douglas Sirk melodramas that he is so obviously inspired by and most directly mimicked in Far from Heaven.

[Spartan Girl]

Even if Gracie wasn’t a child rapist, I’m sure I’d still despise her. The passive-aggressive, backhanded way she shamed her daughter into wearing a more modest dress for her graduation set my teeth on edge. And I don’t care if she was molested by her brothers. It doesn’t make what she did even remotely okay.

Poor Joe. And the kids—both sets. Years and years of therapy ahead of them (if at all), and even that won’t even begin to fix the damage. Melton deserves all the awards.

I don’t know what to make of Elizabeth. Was she just really committed to method acting or was there something wrong with her? 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[SeanC]

Forgot to mention, I laughed at the final gag that Elizabeth was doing all this seemingly in-depth character research for what looks like a cheap Lifetime-type project.

[QQQQ]

I definitely would not describe this as comedic. Comedic is To Die For. This was... hmm, not quite sure. But definitely not comedic 😂

Edited December 2, 2023 by QQQQ

[StatisticalOutlier]

19 hours ago, QQQQ said:

I definitely would not describe this as comedic. Comedic is To Die For. This was... hmm, not quite sure. But definitely not comedic 😂

I went into this knowing pretty much nothing except it was directed by Todd Haynes.  Afterward, I read a bunch of reviews and a whole lot of them were calling it a comedy and I couldn't disagree more. 

[cpcathy]

I kept seeing reviews saying it was funny, but, uh, not at all funny? I ended up not liking it, even though Julianne Moore was spot on, so creepy. She really evoked Mary Kay Latourneau. And I’ve finally decided that I don’t care for Natalie Portman as an actress.

[Wiendish Fitch]

56 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

I kept seeing reviews saying it was funny, but, uh, not at all funny? I ended up not liking it, even though Julianne Moore was spot on, so creepy. She really evoked Mary Kay Latourneau. And I’ve finally decided that I don’t care for Natalie Portman as an actress.

I agree. I think I lightly chuckled once or twice, but that's it. I'm far, far from anti-critic, but I don't always get them.

Still, May December is beautifully made and acted. Julianne Moore obviously did her homework: she got Mary Kay Letourneau's cloying voice and lisp down pat. I normally have an irrational dislike for Natalie Portman, but I thought she was quite good, capturing Elizabeth's pretension and dogged determination. 

It's a shame that, only in recent years, most people finally agree that Letourneau (who died in 2020) was a horrible person who did a disgusting, reprehensible thing. As recently as the 2000s, dudes were joking (or not) that Vili Fualauu was "lucky", which... no words.

We've made progress, but it sucks that progress often comes too late. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Wiendish Fitch
Wanted to link a great article, but those dang paywalls.

[Spartan Girl]

20 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Julianne Moore obviously did her homework: she got Mary Kay Letourneau's cloying voice and lisp down pat. I normally have an irrational dislike for Natalie Portman, but I thought she was quite good, capturing Elizabeth's pretension and dogged determination. 

Julianne Moore is the one I have the irrational dislike for, or at least the characters she’s played. And she sure did a good job making me her despise her in this movie, so kudos to that.

I’d say more about parallels to Letorneau, but I’m not going to. She’s dead and enough space has been wasted on her. Vili finally came to terms with what she did to him and hopefully he and the kids have found peace, though like you said, it might be too late.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[aghst]

Heard that Portman does a nude scene in this?

Would that be her first?

[Spartan Girl]

12 minutes ago, aghst said:

Heard that Portman does a nude scene in this?

Would that be her first?

I don’t remember her being naked. Joe was the one that got full frontal though.

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, aghst said:

Heard that Portman does a nude scene in this?

She doesn't.

Portman did nudity in the Wes Anderson short film Hotel Chevalier.

[MicheleinPhilly]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, SeanC said:

Awards discussion for the film is rapidly cohering into a push for Melton, who is excellent as Joe, the film's most obviously sympathetic character. 

I'll be the asshole - I don't get the buzz around his performance AT ALL. I've literally never seen the dude or heard of him before so maybe I'm missing something. But with the exception of the scene on the roof with his daughter, he made no impression on me. 

[luna1122again]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:27 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Even if Gracie wasn’t a child rapist, I’m sure I’d still despise her. The passive-aggressive, backhanded way she shamed her daughter into wearing a more modest dress for her graduation set my teeth on edge. And I don’t care if she was molested by her brothers. It doesn’t make what she did even remotely okay.

Poor Joe. And the kids—both sets. Years and years of therapy ahead of them (if at all), and even that won’t even begin to fix the damage. Melton deserves all the awards.

I don’t know what to make of Elizabeth. Was she just really committed to method acting or was there something wrong with her? 

I think Elizabeth was as much a predator and a manipulator in her own way as Gracie. 

Melton was fantastic. I would have said, prior to this, that the already over loaded Best Actor Category would go to Gosling or RDJr, but now I believe Melton will be nominated and just might win, and I'll be happy if he does. 

[memememe76]

Joe is supposed to be kinda invisible virtually throughout the movie until the end, probably at the roof scene. That is how it with abuse kids—they’re the forgotten ones. 

[methodwriter85]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:13 PM, MicheleinPhilly said:

I'll be the asshole - I don't get the buzz around his performance AT ALL. I've literally never seen the dude or heard of him before so maybe I'm missing something. But with the exception of the scene on the roof with his daughter, he made no impression on me. 

A lot of the conversation seems to be around the body language he does throughout the movie. He doesn't say all that much, but he conveys the emotional arrestment of being stuck at 13 quite well. You're watching a little boy in the body of a man and Melton nailed that.

On 12/2/2023 at 5:27 PM, Spartan Girl said:

And I don’t care if she was molested by her brothers. It doesn’t make what she did even remotely okay.

Gracie says at the end that her son Georgie made that up and I didn't think she was lying. At the final scene you're seeing her mask come off and the predator she really is. That's why Elizabeth is stunned- she realized that Gracie had been playing her the entire time with the fragile delicate act. 

[xls]

This movie just had a weird feel to it. Don't know what the point was since it doesn't explain much about what happened in the first place. 

They were able to afford such a mini mansion on a lake on Joes income as an Xray tech & her side business baking cakes?😉

Joe seemed bored AF stuck in a middle aged/ middle class life. The actress was as much as a flake, obsessing over the sex part of the 'story' till she had to bang Joe too!

that was so weird the way she spent like 20 mins applying blush to one side of her face.😚

[memememe76]

Why else would they agree to another movie being made? For the money. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

18 hours ago, xls said:

They were able to afford such a mini mansion on a lake on Joes income as an Xray tech & her side business baking cakes?

Gracie mentioned selling her story to a magazine or whatever, and I assume that's where they got the money for the house. 

And I'm guessing that they're getting paid for the story by the people making the movie, too, but I'm not sure how that works.  But she for sure said she'd sold her story before.

[methodwriter85]

I did like the metaphor of the house by the lake being a metaphor for a gilded cage for Joe. It's beautiful but isolated as opposed to a more typical suburban area. 

[Armchair Critic]

 I cringed at the sex scene with Joe and the actress, he only lasted a few seconds but I guess that was another sign of his immaturity because he wasn't embarrassed about it being over so fast.

When Gracie had the hunting rifle towards the end I thought she was going to shoot somebody, glad that I was wrong about that.

[MicheleinPhilly]

The idiots in the Hollywood Foreign Press Association have released the Golden Globe nominations. This really cleaned up. 

In the Musical or Comedy category. 

WT Everloving F????

[Wiendish Fitch]

[Spartan Girl]

30 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

The idiots in the Hollywood Foreign Press Association have released the Golden Globe nominations. This really cleaned up. 

In the Musical or Comedy category. 

WT Everloving F????

I expect nothing from the HFPA and yet I still wind up disappointed.

If this movie was a comedy in any way, shape or form, I’ll eat my hat.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

The only funny line I can remember is the one about the hot dogs. That’s it. 

[SeanC]

The film is (among other things) a dark satire, and it both begins and ends with a gag. Comedy is a defensible classification — also, it’s the studio that submitted it there, not the Globes themselves.

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

The film is (among other things) a dark satire, and it both begins and ends with a gag. Comedy is a defensible classification — also, it’s the studio that submitted it there, not the Globes themselves.

What are the gags at the beginning and the end?

As I posted upthread, I often remember things from a movie, like that Gracie mentioned being paid for her story at some point in the past.  But the opening and closing scenes?  Almost never.  It's an annoying defect in my brain.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

What are the gags at the beginning and the end?

The "hot dogs" bit (which sets the tone for the whole movie) and the reveal of Elizabeth's ridiculous-looking film project.

[memememe76]

I say this as a huge fan but I don’t classify it as a comedy either. And they are so strict when it comes to movies like A Star is Born and Elvis that weren’t classified as musicals. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

The "hot dogs" bit (which sets the tone for the whole movie) and the reveal of Elizabeth's ridiculous-looking film project.

Thank you.  I now remember the opening scene, of Elizabeth arriving at the house, and I definitely remember the hot dog comment.  To me, it was funny but was more important for setting the tone, as you said.

I've always thought I could just have a couple of books, a couple of movies, and a few issues of The New Yorker and I'd be set for life--just repeat them over and over.  Mr. Outlier often works on his computer while I watch TV, and he's heard me gasp at the end of a movie, and he'll tell me, "You gasped when you saw it three days ago, too."

[Black Knight]

I watched this last night. I agree with Haynes that it's not camp, and nor do I think it's a comedy, even a black one. I realize the studio chose to submit it in that category, but I feel that's more due to the studio having a basic discomfort with the material, leading to an attempt to sort of handwave it away as a comedy. None of the interviews I've read with the director or the leads have talked at all about comedic aspects. Let's remember who generally runs the studios: The sort of guys who thought Vili was lucky.

A brief joke about hot dogs that occurred five minutes into the movie and the amusement of Elizabeth's pretensions being exposed at the end isn't enough to make this movie not a drama to me.

Speaking of Elizabeth's pretensions, I liked the way the ending was foreshadowed earlier in the way she carried around that stupid notepad and insisted on writing down the precise brands of Gracie's makeup ensemble. Oh, and of course, what we were told about her filmography up to now, and the fact that this is a "TV movie." If it were prestige, it'd be referenced as being HBO, or even Netflix (ha).

I too was very impressed by Melton. The way he embodied a 13-year-old at times, and at other times a middle-aged man, was remarkable. Only in his last scene, watching his kids' graduation, did he finally seem like the 36-year-old he's supposed to be. I really felt for Joe in this, because not only do we have the ongoing violation that Grace commits against him, we have this new violation that Elizabeth commits against him. It's really sad when the most appropriate "romantic" relationship he's had is the texting one with his friend in the monarch butterflies group, the woman who called a halt to things once he crossed a line and was like "aren't you married?".

The last scene between Gracie and Elizabeth was everything. I think Gracie probably wasn't molested by her brothers, but nor do I think she's quite as secure as she claims. She took off one mask only to reveal another mask. It's masks all the way down. And that's the problem for Elizabeth, because not only did she realize she didn't have Gracie figured out, she still doesn't have Gracie figured out, and she's never going to have Gracie figured out. Portman did such a fantastic job with the insecurity after Gracie sauntered off.

[tennisgurl]

This is what some critics and studio execs consider a "comedy"? I think that probably says more about them than it says about the movie itself, which is many things, but a comedy it is not. Did Elizabeth complaining that the kids she was auditioning for the Joe role were "cute, but mot sexy enough" ring too close to home for too many industry people? I guess it has a few funny moments and some of the purposefully melodramatic shots and music gave it at times a bit of a campy tone, but overall it was a disturbing and sad character study. I think the at times over the top look of the movie was more a shout out to the way these stories about adult women abusing teenage boys they have positions of power over get portrayed in this very salacious campy way, and find the tragedy.  

 I overall thought this was a really well done movie, even if it made for uncomfortable viewing. All of the actors were excellent, I can see why Julianne Moore, Natalie Portman, and Charles Melton, who does a whole lot with relatively little screen time as compared to Moore and Portman. He really gives off the body language and tones of a nervous teenager not a grown man, it works so well to really emphasize how much he has been hurt by Gracie and how he continues to be manipulated and abused by her. Even when he had his awkward hook up with Elizabeth it felt like Elizabeth is a praying on him all over again, even though they're the same age, his development was so stunted by the abuse. Gracie was so creepy and Julianne Moore did a great job at giving her this very little girl lost sort of affect that all feeds into her narrative about how Joe was the man driving their whole relationship while she was a sheltered little belle. So many insanely gross moments where she just throws out stuff like how Joe and her son were in the same grade at school, how he was with tons of women (girls, because he was an actual child) and how he was the one who seduced her, with that creepy soft little girl lisp that is so obviously manipulative. When she was sobbing into Joe's arms about her stupid cakes while trying to guilt him for taking a walk with Elizabeth I half expected her to wink at the camera. 

I really hope that this leads to Joe leaving Gracie and getting all of the therapy, and hopefully his kids get help too. They seem to be really close with their dad, much more than their toxic manipulative mother, maybe they could all start over again without her. 

The only thing I thought was actually funny was at the end where it was revealed that Elizabeth's movie that she was going all of this pretentious research on was some cheesy low budget made for TV movie. That and when one of the drama students asked her about doing sex scenes and she starts on that super awkward speech about simulating sex in a room full of men while the students and teacher are clearly uncomfortable, in general the few laughs I got were from Elizabeth's pretentiousness. Everything with Gracie, Joe, and their family was sad and disturbing. 

Edited January 4 by tennisgurl

[BlackberryJam]

A comedy? Is that some weird throwback that sexual abuse of boys is funny?

Ugh. 

I read where Vili, the real Joe, is upset that he wasn’t consulted. I don’t know where to draw that line, when making a film based on real events, is there an obligation to seek out the people who lived it? I instinctively say no, but this feels like exploiting Vili all over again.

Edited January 6 by BlackberryJam

[Chaos Theory]

Been meaning to watch this for awhile.    If this was billed as a comedy it was not a good description.    It is more a captivating and unsettling but also well acted drama.  I did like that the story was largely told through the eyes of Joe Yoo and Elizabeth and actress who turns out to be doing a low budget   project and gets dropped into a deeply dysfunctional family dynamic.      I thought it was rather clever to keep Gracie mostly a mystery until the end.  You had everyone yelling Elizabeth who they thought Gracie was and then the end had Gracie telling Elizabeth who she was.    
 

And yeah the sadness of the situation for Joe was there throughout.  A boy in a man’s body.  You saw it when he was trying to connect with his own son and later with the hookup he had with Elizabeth.    
 

Not a bad movie but not a comedy.

Edited April 17 by Chaos Theory