S02.E10: Hegemony

[Guest]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Overall, I thought this season has a whole wasn't quite a strong as the first one, but despite its flaws, I still think it's by far the best out of the NuTrek.  Even when it doesn't work, I feel like it's the only that "gets" what fans like about Trek and strive to accomplish it, even if the execution doesn't always work.  And, as a whole, the ensemble might one the strongest out of the Treks, with Anson Mount continuing to make Pike one of my favorites ever (probably even in the top five for me.)

I completely agree. It’s far from perfect but I’m enjoying the ride. I really like the cast and am invested even though I don’t love all the choices being made. 

 

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Maybe but it's going to turn out that flashing bright lights makes them leave or go to sleep or whatever, like they are barely more than moths that fly towards the light.

I’m going to wait and see how that turns out before I judge it. But this is the franchise that has that gave us pon farr so it probably won’t bother me too much either way. 

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

But, Paramount isn't sticking with the 7 seasons standard for Trek Series anymore. Discovery is ending at Season 5, they just cancelled Prodigy, and probably will start doing limited series and movies.  At the pace that Strange New Worlds is going, I would not be surprised if the upcoming 3rd Season is also the last one.

I understand, vaguely since I'm not in the profession, that streamers tend to cancel after three years because if the show continues longer people get more benefits, more pay and more residuals. I think this is part of what the current strikes are about, and the streamers are trying to figure out how they are going to survive.

 

[Starchild]

17 hours ago, historylover820 said:

5. So, when are we getting Sulu and McCoy to make an appearance?

Well, if you think about it, Pike's CMO and helmsman have both been taken by the Gorn. So perhaps McCoy and Sulu are temporary transfers to cover those positions. Ortegas dies during the rescue efforts, M'Benga takes a leave of absence to recover, and Bob's your uncle, transfers are permanent.

Then we'll have the whole TOS S1 crew in place, just waiting for Kirk to take over. Already.

 

12 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Perhaps there are two different species called "Gorn."  Here on earth, we have a possum in Australia and an opossum in the US, familiarly called "possum," as well. The English badger and the American badger look not so much alike. The red fruit of the prickly pear cactus is called a tuna and is nothing like the fish.

Who's to say both these Gorn may have other names, but both co-exist on the planet Gorn?

That's a stretch, especially since no one reacted to the species name with any degree of recognition. 

I haven't seen Arena in a while, so I can't recall if the nuances of acting and dialogue can be interpreted as not "ew what is that" but instead as "ew I thought we were rid of them". It's the only way I can accept that, in Arena, everyone wasn't seeing a Gorn for the first time. Unless SF got everyone to sign gd NDAs again!

I mean, who says you have to have seen one for yourself? Wouldn't descriptions/pictures of a species you're almost at war with go out to every ship in the fleet? By this point, never mind that the Enterprise crew should recognize the Gorn, everyone in the Federation should.

 

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Are TNG and DS9 NuTrek? 

Lately I've been categorizing the TV series like this in my head:

• TOS,TAS = classic Trek
• TNG,DS9,VOY,ENT = revival Trek
• DSC,PIC,LOW,PRD,SNW = modern Trek

If it's true that they'll eventually stop doing new series for a while, then when they come back around again, I'll probably call it post-modern Trek (if I'm still around).

[sandrajane]

I call bulls**t on letting Batel onto the Enterprise while infected.  Have these people not watched any of the Alien movies!?  I was getting Alien: Covenant flashbacks by the end of the episode.

[QuantumMechanic]

Just now, sandrajane said:

I call bulls**t on letting Batel onto the Enterprise while infected.  Have these people not watched any of the Alien movies!?  I was getting Alien: Covenant flashbacks by the end of the episode.

Plus didn't they put her on the defective bed?

[marinw]

25 minutes ago, sandrajane said:

I call bulls**t on letting Batel onto the Enterprise while infected.  Have these people not watched any of the Alien movies!?  I was getting Alien: Covenant flashbacks by the end of the episode.

Beam her onto a shuttle and tow said shuttle. Would amputating her arm help? Or is it too late for that? I'm assuming they can regrow limbs and/or have excellent prosthetic limbs.

[QuantumMechanic]

10 minutes ago, marinw said:

Beam her onto a shuttle and tow said shuttle. Would amputating her arm help? Or is it too late for that? I'm assuming they can regrow limbs and/or have excellent prosthetic limbs.

Or hold her in the transporter buffer.

[marinw]

Just now, QuantumMechanic said:

Or hold her in the transporter buffer.

Only M'Benga does that! 

[sandrajane]

2 minutes ago, marinw said:

Beam her onto a shuttle and tow said shuttle. Would amputating her arm help? Or is it too late for that? I'm assuming they can regrow limbs and/or have excellent prosthetic limbs.

Everything you said at the very least.  Also, did they not scan to see if anybody was infected?  Everyone but Ortegas have already been through this scenario.

I'm wondering if some of the other survivors got alien babies in them and that's why they are still alive and  the Gorn took them.

[TVbitch]

I like this cast, but the finale didn't really move me. The gravitas of their situation and of facing one's mortality is still missing for me. This season was predominantly focused on comedy and romantic escapades, which is okay to a degree, but, for me, it was to the extent that the drama suffered.

I love Anson Mount, but Pike is still making quips to Maria about his relationship inadequacies when the room is smeared with the blood of the colonists, a Star Fleet vessel and its personnel has been destroyed, and they are all but doomed. Last season, I appreciated that Pike was burdened by and ruminating over his fate, even though he was getting on with it and had plenty of moments of levity. 

On another note, I was thinking maybe the Federation could start producing the bio-engineered lab grown meat that is already on the market here to keep the gorn from feeding on other species! 

[QuantumMechanic]

Two things...

1) While Pelia's idea was good, why use the saucer section? Plenty of other piece there that sure looked big enough to take out the field generator.  Or at least give a line where they actually say they need something as big as the saucer.  (And it's still reprehensible that there was no attempt to look for or even think about possible survivors.)

2) Not original to me: "It’s actually kind of offensive that Chapel was the only survivor of the Cayuga, and not just the only survivor, but the only person that anyone in the show ever seems to even consider might have survived. The contrast between Matt Decker’s lament for his crew and Marie Batel’s apparent disinterest is staggering."

Edited August 11, 2023 by QuantumMechanic

[TVbitch]

But Spock and Chapel held hands as they watched any other survivors head for their doom, so it's all good! 

[Prevailing Wind]

Those captured by the Gorn aren't necessarily gonna die to clear the way for other TOS characters - there's a chance they survive and get promoted to another ship, get a desk job, or so traumatized, they quit Starfleet altogether.

[Ceindreadh]

17 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Two things...

1) While Pelia's idea was good, why use the saucer section? Plenty of other piece there that sure looked big enough to take out the field generator.  Or at least give a line where they actually say they need something as big as the saucer.  (And it's still reprehensible that there was no attempt to look for or even think about possible survivors.)

2) Not original to me: "It’s actually kind of offensive that Chapel was the only survivor of the Cayuga, and not just the only survivor, but the only person that anyone in the show ever seems to even consider might have survived. The contrast between Matt Decker’s lament for his crew and Marie Batel’s apparent disinterest is staggering."

Re 1, Agreed.  They could have had somebody bring up the possibility of survivors and have it dismissed as unlikely or point out that smashing the field generator was the only way the known survivors on the planet had any chance of survival. 

Re 2, Disagree.  I'm pretty sure that Captain Batel had more pressing things on her mind at that time than her crew.  She knows they're dead (presumably Pike told her what her ship looked like), but if she stops to grieve and lament for them, then the remaining survivors might end up dead as well.   Matt Decker had the luxury of a time and place to grieve.  Batel didn't. 

 

[tv-talk]

36 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

It’s actually kind of offensive that Chapel was the only survivor of the Cayuga, and not just the only survivor, but the only person that anyone in the show ever seems to even consider might have survived.

Yeah definitely noticed the only consideration they seemed to have was that Sick Bay had apparently been destroyed. The destruction of that entire ship was lensed thru whether Spock and Pike has lost their romantic interests, to the point it almost seemed as if Batel wasnt there maybe Pike wouldnt have even tried that crazy mission to get to the planet. And Una seemed to be suggesting that Spock was doing all those scans just for Christine whereas he should have been doing that anyway no? 

The more I think about it, the more I dont think any of them will die. However Ortegas and Pelia get off the Enterprise, it wont be in a space coffin. They just wont kill off characters who instead could just leave and pop in another episode randomly later for a reminiscing or save-the-day moment. 

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

I love Anson Mount, but Pike is still making quips to Maria about his relationship inadequacies when the room is smeared with the blood of the colonists, a Star Fleet vessel and its personnel has been destroyed, and they are all but doomed.

I like him too, but I think that his character has been reduced to a bit of a wimp this season, and I don't like it!!  Was it him or another higher up in Starfleet make the comment that they shouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the Gorn are monsters and should figure out what makes them hostile?  Did I hear that right or am I talking out of my ass again?  I could've sworn I heard that comment, but I'm not going back to rewatch it to find out.   If that's what was said, I'm going with 'Monsters for 100, Alex':  What are the Gorn? 

[TVbitch]

I do think they really weakened Pike this season. Almost all of the predicaments and "riddles" were solved by other crew members, who also did most of the action/fighting. The only true heroics the captain engaged in was putting up with Spock's would-be mother-in-law. Pike mostly cooked and got angsty about being a lousy boyfriend. Anson Mount gives great "reaction," but I do hope next season he is front and center again. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by TVbitch

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

I like him too, but I think that his character has been reduced to a bit of a wimp this season, and I don't like it!!  Was it him or another higher up in Starfleet make the comment that they shouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the Gorn are monsters and should figure out what makes them hostile?  Did I hear that right or am I talking out of my ass again?  I could've sworn I heard that comment, but I'm not going back to rewatch it to find out.   If that's what was said, I'm going with 'Monsters for 100, Alex':  What are the Gorn? 

April was the one who was saying let's not jump to conclusions while Pike's opinion was Gorn=monster.  Of course April's attitude is what the Federation's viewpoint is supposed to be and Pike is the one who's blinded by his concern for Batel (and possibly anger at the death of Hemmer and those other crew last season).

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

The more I think about it, the more I dont think any of them will die.

Ortegas and Pelia don't have any deep connections to the rest of the crew, so killing them would be kind of pointless.  I maintain that Hemmer was too interesting to kill off so quickly, but at least his death helped push Uhura forward.  Who reacts that strongly if either of those two die?  Una (and Kirk, if that matters) would care a lot if La'an bites it, but she's too important to the show to kill unless the actor wants to do other stuff.

[tv-talk]

25 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

April was the one who was saying let's not jump to conclusions while Pike's opinion was Gorn=monster.

Didnt Pike later say to someone maybe we should try to talk to them?

 

26 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Una (and Kirk, if that matters) would care a lot if La'an bites it, but she's too important to the show to kill unless the actor wants to do other stuff.

Why is La'an so important to the show? I feel like they could off her, Ortegas, or Carol Kane and it wouldnt be that big a deal, but I suspect they just wont because this isnt Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones, they'll want to keep everyone around as alive even if they leave the show. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

1) While Pelia's idea was good, why use the saucer section? Plenty of other piece there that sure looked big enough to take out the field generator.  Or at least give a line where they actually say they need something as big as the saucer. 

They did explain it. They needed a piece large enough to survive re-entry. The other pieces weren’t big enough to take out the field generator after being burned up in the atmosphere. 

30 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Didnt Pike later say to someone maybe we should try to talk to them?

Sort of. When La’an said the younglings were working together when they should be fighting for dominance, Pike said that maybe they could find a way to reach them. He said that if La’an didn’t understand them there is something about the Gorn they haven’t discovered. 

30 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Why is La'an so important to the show?

For one thing they made her the Gorn expert. She also has a unique dynamic with multiple characters. But also the show has focused on developing her as a character and many people like her. 

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

For one thing they made her the Gorn expert. She also has a unique dynamic with multiple characters. But also the show has focused on developing her as a character and many people like her. 

Having her die saving everyone from the Gorn would be fitting, and it is a chance for the show to have some real gravity, killing off one of the minor main characters. Again though, I dont think it's that type of show and it's just a few hapless Mayberry types who the Gorn will manage to kill.

Edited August 12, 2023 by tv-talk

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

For one thing they made her the Gorn expert. She also has a unique dynamic with multiple characters. But also the show has focused on developing her as a character and many people like her. 

She's not important to me lol.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

She's not important to me lol.

I get it. I hate characters others people love.

I like La’an and would be disappointed if they write her off. I can relate to certain aspects of her characterization. We all have our preferences and no show is going to make everyone happy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

I like him too, but I think that his character has been reduced to a bit of a wimp this season, and I don't like it!!  Was it him or another higher up in Starfleet make the comment that they shouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the Gorn are monsters and should figure out what makes them hostile?  Did I hear that right or am I talking out of my ass again?  I could've sworn I heard that comment, but I'm not going back to rewatch it to find out.   If that's what was said, I'm going with 'Monsters for 100, Alex':  What are the Gorn? 

A recurring theme in Trek is that a lot of aliens that seem monstrous actually have been misunderstood. Whether it's the Horta, the Crystalline Entity or even the Borg, the possibility gets teased for some sort of truce, path to peace/understanding. 

There are very few species that are out and out, no-question-about-it monstrous and evil. Or so the overarching Trek philosophy tends to hold. 

It may turn out that the Gorn sending the demarcation line was not a show of hostility but a well-intentioned warning. It may be that the Gorn are going to get some sort of redemption arc of some sort.

[magdalene]

A cliffhanger, bleh. I follow the strikes and the way things are going we may be waiting 1 year minimum for this show to come back. And that is an optimistic estimate. Well, certain characters are obviously not dying. Pike's girlfriend not being one of them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, baldryanr said:

April was the one who was saying let's not jump to conclusions while Pike's opinion was Gorn=monster.  Of course April's attitude is what the Federation's viewpoint is supposed to be and Pike is the one who's blinded by his concern for Batel (and possibly anger at the death of Hemmer and those other crew last season).

Ortegas and Pelia don't have any deep connections to the rest of the crew, so killing them would be kind of pointless.  I maintain that Hemmer was too interesting to kill off so quickly, but at least his death helped push Uhura forward.  Who reacts that strongly if either of those two die?  Una (and Kirk, if that matters) would care a lot if La'an bites it, but she's too important to the show to kill unless the actor wants to do other stuff.

People's mileage will vary, of course, but I disagree that Ortegas doesn't have deep connections to the crew. It's fairly clear that she and Chapel are tight (see her pumping up Christine in Subspace Rhapsody when she got the fellowship news and her being like "Girl, tell the damn truth about your feelings for Spock" in Charades as recent examples.)

Moreover, I think that the most important measuring stick isn't the deep connections to the crew, but how we viewers interpret/the character and again that will vary.

Una, for example, has noted connections with Pike, Spock, La'an, and more. But if they wrote her out, I wouldn't miss her. I've got nothing against her, but I've got nothing in particular for her. They could replace her with pretty much anyone and it would be six of one half a dozen of the other.

[Prevailing Wind]

59 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It may turn out that the Gorn sending the demarcation line was not a show of hostility but a well-intentioned warning. It may be that the Gorn are going to get some sort of redemption arc of some sort.

Another reason why I think it's feasible that there are two species named Gorn. If they get a redemption arc, how do you explain Arena?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Una, for example, has noted connections with Pike, Spock, La'an, and more. But if they wrote her out, I wouldn't miss her. I've got nothing against her, but I've got nothing in particular for her. They could replace her with pretty much anyone and it would be six of one half a dozen of the other.

That’s a very good point. I like Una fine and RR is good in the role but she mostly feels like a non-entity most of the time. 

[Starchild]

7 hours ago, Dani said:

I get it. I hate characters others people love.

I like La’an and would be disappointed if they write her off. I can relate to certain aspects of her characterization. We all have our preferences and no show is going to make everyone happy.

I don't hate her, but the gimmick of making her a descendant of Khan, which has gone nowhere and led to nothing other than disturbing (though not destroying) canon, annoys me. So far it's been a pointless attribute for the character, seemingly done for no other reason than for its own sake. 

So I guess La'an bears the brunt of my annoyance with TPTB lol.

[tv-talk]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s a very good point. I like Una fine and RR is good in the role but she mostly feels like a non-entity most of the time. 

Well there are definitely 2 tiers of characters (or even 3), where of course Spock, Uhura, Pike, Kirk, now Scotty are all in Tier1 based on them being the TOS legends (and Pike simply star of show), then you have MBenga, Chapel, Una, who were vey minor in TOS but known and have grown into roles, and for me anyway, you're left with La'An, Ortegas, Pelia feeling completely expendable. 

14 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I don't hate her, but the gimmick of making her a descendant of Khan, which has gone nowhere

The way they write her is a shame, pretty much a one note gimmick where she is always brooding and seemingly angry or disturbed. It falls flat pretty fast for me, she's pretty much the same at all times ie angst filled and pretend broken. Her musical number was terrific for the character but a one-off. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Another reason why I think it's feasible that there are two species named Gorn. If they get a redemption arc, how do you explain Arena?

Star Trek has conditioned us to think all members of a given species look and act similarly. But in the real world, that isn't so. 

Stephen Hawking is of the same species as Usain Bolt, Meghan Markle or whoever That they look different, behave different, etc. doesn't change that.

Upthread, the joke was made that Kirk fought an arthritic senior citizen Gorn. But honestly, it could be at different parts of their lifecycle, s Gorn might be slower. Or it could just be that particular Gorn for reasons of their own was toying with Kirk and could move fast like these Gorn. Or maybe it's a gender difference or a variance within the species.

Or we can just go with the Doylist explanation: in the 60s, they only had the capacity to do a stuntman in a rubber suit so he had to be slower moving and/or the notion of what was menacing changed such that having a slow-moving alien who could be stunned by phasers would not present any threat and seems hokey, but aliens that can zip around and who would literally use you for food or propagation of their species is potentially terrifying.

[Affogato]

 the gorn coming up close to Batel and then leaving because she was 'pregnant' with gorn eggs, somewhat tacky, also, while I have no objections to the actor, she is no Sigorney Weaver. Her expressions don't change that much.

The fire factory, also, was largely candles. That seemed unlikely.

How do the gorn develop a civilization. Back in proto gorn world small prehistoric gorn creatures lay their eggs in the dinosaur beings (of their world) and the babies hatch and eat the dinos, fight among themselves, most of them die and the rest grow to adulthood. Is that how it starts?  How do they maintain this while developing civilizations and space travel, and if they manage it why do they need or want to take over other planets in this way? The Aliens were artificial planetkillers, after all, and once they had run out of planet they fall dormant until harvested. they don't have a long term plan for growth.

Maybe the group that devestates other races are a faction of 'back to nature' gorns. The main body of the gorn will need to be convinced to help the galaxy get rid of these embarassing troublemakers.

[Affogato]

Yes, of this group of actors, in this version of trek, Montgomery Scott is the winner.

Pike is good, too, but there really wasn't a lot of Pike in TOS, so there is more space for original development.

By the way, I think they first season was compelling and Pike was compelling because of the storyline, where he tries to avoid and finally comes to terms with his fate, which can only be avoided if he acts against his principles. I think that we are being set up for a mirror story, where Spock has to decide to lay aside his desire to be an emotional person, because that will mean he doesn't become the person he needs to be and the universe will be changed, hence the break with Chapel.

 

Why did that planet not have vaccinations? It should be simple to synthesize most of them and they obviously have lots of children and plan on expanding on the planet. Having everyone wait for simple preventative medical attention until a starship can drop by makes no sense to me.

 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Star Trek has conditioned us to think all members of a given species look and act similarly. But in the real world, that isn't so. 

Stephen Hawking is of the same species as Usain Bolt, Meghan Markle or whoever That they look different, behave different, etc. doesn't change that.

Upthread, the joke was made that Kirk fought an arthritic senior citizen Gorn. But honestly, it could be at different parts of their lifecycle, s Gorn might be slower. Or it could just be that particular Gorn for reasons of their own was toying with Kirk and could move fast like these Gorn. Or maybe it's a gender difference or a variance within the species.

Or we can just go with the Doylist explanation: in the 60s, they only had the capacity to do a stuntman in a rubber suit so he had to be slower moving and/or the notion of what was menacing changed such that having a slow-moving alien who could be stunned by phasers would not present any threat and seems hokey, but aliens that can zip around and who would literally use you for food or propagation of their species is potentially terrifying.

In Arena part of  what is happening is two creatures who depend on civilized tools and weapons are put somewhere where they do not have them. I believe both of them were pulled from their starships, too, so they are people with similar jobs.

  Kirk and Gornguy had to be matched for it to work.

Given need, I would assume Kirk would eat the Gorn to avoid death and that Gorn would have eaten Kirk, they just didn't get that far.

I think the Doylist explaination is the best, although I think they could have done better than the gorn at that time, but the gorn was cheap and Star Trek didn't have a lot of money to spend.

[Affogato]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:17 AM, paulvdb said:

Of course. Why didn't I think of that immediately? Once the Gorn taste Pike's cooking they will never want to eat humans again and they'll release the Enterprise crew members and the colonists.

Id think more along the lines of Gorn babies tasting like chicken.

[statsgirl]

I agree that they have weakened Pike this season so that other characters can take centre stage but personally I like it. One of the things I most disliked about TNG was how god-like Picard was, and if it wasn't Picard solving the situation it was Wesley or Ryker or Data. Everyone else was a supporting character.

I really like that this season we have really learned much more about Una, La'an (who I disliked last season but like her now that I know her better), Uhura and M'Benga.

On 8/11/2023 at 12:03 AM, Dani said:

I don’t think it is that simple. The Enterprise was alone and outside of Federation space. Telling them to not engage isn’t they same as abandoning anyone left alive.

I was thinking more about the d the on-going negotiations with the Gorn and the destruction of the Cayuga.

Admiral April said that they are in negotiations with the Gorn, but then the Gorn arrive to the non-aligned planet, attack it, blow up the Federation ship in orbit around it and draw a line in space telling the Federation not to cross it. And yet instead of reacting all the Federation does is tell the Enterprise to stay back and keep negotiating?

This is Chamberlain negotiating -  not the way to make the Gorn take them seriously as a worthy adversary to negotiate with.

20 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Or hold her in the transporter buffer.

That is what Chapel was planning to do i think.

I don't understand why Batel didn't cut off her arm as soon as it was infected (memories of Tamara Pierce's Wolfspeaker).

20 hours ago, TVbitch said:

On another note, I was thinking maybe the Federation could start producing the bio-engineered lab grown meat that is already on the market here to keep the gorn from feeding on other species! 

Maybe it's a way to terrorize the rest of the galaxy so that they give in.

The Gorn don't make sense to me because species as savage as the Gorn don't tend to survive to become as intelligent as we are led to believe that they are. Anthropologically speaking (Hi Sam!) those species tend to be kept down by other species who are both intelligent and cooperative. And since the Gorn hatchlings kill off physically weaker hatchlings so that only the strongest and most savage survive, often the more intelligent specimens aren't the strongest physically so they could be killing off their Einsteins before they even get a chance to create anything.

Why is every romantic relationship on this show doomed? Even TOS had some stable relationships albeit not among the lead characters.

[AmigaJoe]

'On Screen' - They always say. Yet it's clearly represented as a window...

I know about 'Smart Glass' but why put a window there AT ALL?!?

[Prevailing Wind]

23 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

I know about 'Smart Glass' but why put a window there AT ALL?!?

To watch the stars twinkle.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

And yet instead of reacting all the Federation does is tell the Enterprise to stay back and keep negotiating?

I just don’t see what else they could have told the Enterprise to do. The route Pike took was probably the only one available given the situation and it has resulted in the Gorn capturing more people, more deaths on the Enterprise and the ship being damaged to the point they will have to run. 

It sucks, but I absolutely see why Starfleet wouldn’t want to sacrifice another ship and even more lives with very little potential to actually save anyone outside their jurisdiction. 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

This is Chamberlain negotiating -  not the way to make the Gorn take them seriously as a worthy adversary to negotiate with.

I pretty sure the Gorn think they’re not a worthy adversary because they’re not a worthy adversary at the moment. 

Ultimately, Pike’s actions will probably make them a worthy adversary but Starfleet couldn’t have known that a brilliant engineer from a completely different vessel had crash landed on the planet with the potential solution. 

[baldryanr]

18 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

I know about 'Smart Glass' but why put a window there AT ALL?!?

If you're going to be stupid enough to put your control center in an easily targeted location at the top of the ship you might as well double down and add a window.  Of course, at some point we know Starfleet will eventually decide there's no need for a window while simultaneously keeping the bridge up there, even in a warship like the Defiant.

[Chit Chat]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

A recurring theme in Trek is that a lot of aliens that seem monstrous actually have been misunderstood.

When aliens come out with teeth/fangs/claws baring, there's not much to misunderstand!  If the Gorn are capable of rational thought, why aren't they trying to reach out and attempt a peaceful contact rather than attacking and killing first?  Yep, they're monsters!  YMMV.  

[QuantumMechanic]

I really wish they had simply made up a new alien rather than use the Gorn for this Alien/xenomorph BS. 

Or if they wanted to re-use some TOS alien use the Tholians who we know virtually nothing about aside from Spock's odd "The renowned Tholian punctuality" remark.  Sure, they couldn't have really done xenomorph BS with them but so much the better!

[tv-talk]

Ostensibly the Gorn on the Cayuga was trying to access computer to download information on the Federation, learn their tech, get an advantage on their enemy. Something intelligent species would do. Yet apparently it wasn't in communication with its own ship and didn't tell other Gorn the humans were up to something sneaky. Instead it behaved like a monster in a space suit. SnW wanting it both ways.

The positive to TOS gorn being slow was it allowed Kirk time to think up the diamond cannon, which was the brains over brawn point there.

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Anthropologically speaking (Hi Sam!) those species tend to be kept down by other species who are both intelligent and cooperative.

If it wasn't for a giant asteroid,  we'd still be mouse-like creatures relegated to sneaking around at night hiding from the day loving monsters that ruled the world.

[PurpleTentacle]

I thought those transporter beams looked weird when the landing party and the colonists were beamed up.

I don't know man. The Gorn stretch credulity for me. Such a feral species and yet they somehow have space travel and superior technology to the federation? This makes even less sense than the Klingons.

Then there are the problems with canon, where in TOS nobody knew anything about them... Now every ship has special anti-Gorn weapons on board. I really hope we are in a different timeline / universe now. They have broken canon too far.

As far as we know, Gorn eggs don't move throughout the body, do they? Certainly didn't look like it. The infection and pain seemed to have been concentrated in Batel's arm, so can't they just hack that off? I'm sure they can grow her a new one. Just a few years later Bones gave a lady a pill and it regrew her kidneys (well that was in 1986, but the pill came from a few years after this).

I find it hard to believe that they can't remove the Gorn eggs with their medical technology anyway. Really the biofilters of the transporter should just remove them. People are literally deconstructed into their atoms in there. There is no way you couldn't filter out something from a completely different species.

[QuantumMechanic]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I find it hard to believe that they can't remove the Gorn eggs with their medical technology anyway. Really the biofilters of the transporter should just remove them. People are literally deconstructed into their atoms in there. There is no way you couldn't filter out something from a completely different species.

That's something that should be on all the time so crews don't bring pathogens, parasites, etc. to the ship.

[PurpleTentacle]

Just now, QuantumMechanic said:

That's something that should be on all the time so crews don't bring pathogens, parasites, etc. to the ship.

Thing is, the biofilters are on at all times.

In Enterprise, when they didn't have beaming or biofilters, they had to go through decontamination after every trip outside the ship.

It's just another thing that stretches suspension of disbelieve, that the biofilters seemingly can't pick up and filter out reptile eggs, out of humanoid bodies...

[Starchild]

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the Doylist explaination is the best

No offense to anyone, but I wish people would stop chiming in with Doylist explanations when a show has contradictions. We all know the limitations of television.

Doylist explanations are no fun, they're pretty much always the same 2 or 3 things (money, time, resources), and they kill a  spirited discussion.

Watsonian stuff is a lot more interesting to debate about. :)

ETA: Doylist explanations should not be brought in unless someone asks, or their Watsonian arguments demonstrate true cluelessness lol

Edited August 12, 2023 by Starchild

[Affogato]

14 minutes ago, Starchild said:

No offense to anyone, but I wish people would stop chiming in with Doylist explanations when a show has contradictions. We all know the limitations of television.

Doylist explanations are no fun, they're pretty much always the same 2 or 3 things (money, time, resources), and they kill a  spirited discussion.

Watsonian stuff is a lot more interesting to debate about. :)

ETA: Doylist explanations should not be brought in unless someone asks, or their Watsonian arguments demonstrate true cluelessness lol

I was answering someone else, normally I don't use either descriptive in conversation.

Are there berserker Gorn and Negotiator Gorn and sedentary space pilot Gorn? Maybe.

[tv-talk]

They can always handwave away the biofilter saying Gorn babies have some chameleon quality that mimics every cell blah blah blah. However Christine will solve the issue, that much we know.

 

Or Batel will sacrifice herself to save everyone, probably sneaking into transporter room and beaming self to Gorn ship where she'll have inate knowledge of how everything works due to the gorn baby and the gorn will leave her alone since she's a host.

Edited August 12, 2023 by tv-talk

[ML89]

Ortegas at least has watched The Empire Strikes Back - and apparently no one else has. Seriously, zombie movies over “and then we just float away”/“with the rest of the garbage.” Erica and Han Solo would be propping up a bar somewhere, telling tall tales of who’s the better pilot. 

I like NuScotty but I swear, if there’s a young country doctor held hostage on the Gorn ship, I give up.

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

really wish they had simply made up a new alien rather than use the Gorn for this Alien/xenomorph BS

Me too.
 

La’an can’t die at the hands of the Gorn because 

Spoiler

We already had Captain Shaw die at the hands of the Borg after surviving them and they can’t do that twice, could they? I mean, two ripoffs of Jaws in two series?

Spoiler

Edited August 12, 2023 by ML89