S02.E08: Under the Cloak of War

[tv-talk]

52 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

But those were 24 episodes seasons.
Here we are talking about the main star of a 10 episodes season.
I do think that the limited number of episodes does not serve SNW well. 

Yeah it's definitely a different beast today and with so much less room for error. Some TNG episodes were just abysmal but you knew 5mins in and if you just skipped it no harm, no foul, so many more eps to go. Kind of have to watch all of a 10 episode season, and the writers need to do a good job basically every week.

 

[historylover820]

22 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah it's definitely a different beast today and with so much less room for error. Some TNG episodes were just abysmal but you knew 5mins in and if you just skipped it no harm, no foul, so many more eps to go. Kind of have to watch all of a 10 episode season, and the writers need to do a good job basically every week.

 

I think that's the main problem.

I didn't like the season opener, and I hated the La'an/Kirk time travel episode. Those two episodes make up 1/5 of the season's run time, 20% of the season. And, while my obsession with Anson Mount is also mostly tongue-in-cheek, and I understand the real life reason why his decreased time on screen (and I can respect it), he is the leading actor, he is billed first, and his sidelining wouldn't be as evident in a 22 episode season. But it is in a season with half of the episodes.

Yeah, there is so much less room for error, and even though this is more of an episodic series, if you miss one episode, you still miss something important.

[tv-talk]

19 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

I didn't like the season opener, and I hated the La'an/Kirk time travel episode. Those two episodes make up 1/5 of the season's run time, 20% of the season.

Yeah the season opener gets worse as the season goes on, because it established the Federation was on full red alert due to imminent war with the Gorn...but then still hasnt come back to that yet this season with only 2eps left and one a song and dance nonsense episode (i assume).

The La'an/altKirk episode was worst Trek I can recall that doesnt involve Michael Durnham. And it really speaks to the writers, because I thoroughly enjoyed realKirk and Uhura as the principles of an episode. The way they write La'an and that Kirk just didnt work for me at all nor did the awful premise and execution.

So if I am to assume that the musical episode is as throw away as Elysian Kingdom was for me...yeah I hope the season finale is all Pike, Spock, and Gorn with some realKirk and Uhura sprinkled in. 

This is it too! The strike gonna keep this series off air for at least 18 months after we get episode 10.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

This is it too! The strike gonna keep this series off air for at least 18 months after we get episode 10.

Hopefully, some better writers will be available at that time...

[magdalene]

I disliked Rah from the start. He was too ...jovial for me under the circumstances. It rubbed me the wrong way.  I don't blame Pike for expecting  the war survivors among his crew to toe the line. He had his orders and he did show concern for the people having difficulties being around Rah.

I believe M'Benga snapped and killed Rah, triggered by Rah touching him. I don't think he planned it. I am not sure Chapel saw the whole thing, in any case she would have covered for him, given their bond forged by the horrors they had been through. 

What M'Benga did here creates an eventual exit story for the character, which makes me sad as I really like him. I haven't seen much of original recipe Trek and I don't remember well what I have seen.  Next Generation was "my" Trek when I was a child. But I do know that they will eventually have a different doctor.  This is all getting bitter sweet for me.

[historylover820]

M'Benga is on Kirk's Enterprise as a Vulcan specialist working under McCoy. He's in two episodes, I think. I think he's on the episode where Sam Kirk is on.

[statsgirl]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:47 PM, tv-talk said:

 M'Benga and Chapel were medics, it's not that far out of line for Pike to think they can do their duties. I mean are they at the point where any violent triage situation is too much for them? Are they too broken to do their jobs on a battlefield ever again? And Ortega? What did she do in the war? Pilot ships? So she should get an out anytime the Federation has to deal with Klingons ever again? Allied soldiers spent years working with the Germans and Japanese IN Germany and Japan after the war. If these 3 have so much PTSD that the very presence of a Klingon is too much for them to handle...maybe they arent fit to be Starfleet

It isn't just any Klingon or any violent situation, it's the Klingon who committed all the atrocities that they were forced to watch and try to fix. If Pike didn't know that about his officers, that they were stationed on J'Gal where Rah mass murdered civilian families, then he's not  a good captain.

I remember the PTSD that my father had from being in a Russian POW camp or the stories of those who were in camps in the East. It's not a 'suck it up' kind of thing.

M'Benga and Chapel can do their medical duties. It's a step too far to ask them to have dinner with and be nice to one they know as a monster and who hurt them so deeply.

15 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the 'butcher' title was conferred by his fellow Klingons. They didn't care about the killing of civilians. That he killed the klingons that killed the civilians would make the federation more likely to accept him.

From earlier Treks, we learned that Klingons regularly killed other Klingons under their command if they don't do their jobs properly. Rah may have killed more than most but the Klingons him a butcher for it doesn't fit for me.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It isn't just any Klingon or any violent situation, it's the Klingon who committed all the atrocities that they were forced to watch and try to fix. If Pike didn't know that about his officers, that they were stationed on J'Gal where Rah mass murdered civilian families, then he's not  a good captain.

I remember the PTSD that my father had from being in a Russian POW camp or the stories of those who were in camps in the East. It's not a 'suck it up' kind of thing.

M'Benga and Chapel can do their medical duties. It's a step too far to ask them to have dinner with and be nice to one they know as a monster and who hurt them so deeply.

From earlier Treks, we learned that Klingons regularly killed other Klingons under their command if they don't do their jobs properly. Rah may have killed more than most but the Klingons him a butcher for it doesn't fit for me.

It is a process of elimination thing for me. We are told he is the. Utcher. Excuse he killed his generals I. Several ways. I may. E wrong though and he is the butcher to humans but is identified. By killing the generals. 

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

M'Benga and Chapel can do their medical duties. It's a step too far to ask them to have dinner with and be nice to one they know as a monster and who hurt them so deeply.

M'Benga and Chapel aren't children, they're adults and professionals who were given the chance to back out and agreed to go anyway.  Given everything we've seen of Pike he would have allowed them to skip without holding it against them, and they had to have known that.  It's not Pike's fault they didn't stand up for themselves. 

[paigow]

19 hours ago, historylover820 said:

I think he's on the episode where Sam Kirk is on.

Incorrect. S2: A Private Little War ;  S3: That Which Survives

 

ETA: TOS!Chapel cannot be from the same universe as SNW!Chapel... observe her weak-ass slaps

Edited July 31, 2023 by paigow

[QuantumMechanic]

11 hours ago, magdalene said:

What M'Benga did here creates an eventual exit story for the character, which makes me sad as I really like him. I haven't seen much of original recipe Trek and I don't remember well what I have seen.  Next Generation was "my" Trek when I was a child. But I do know that they will eventually have a different doctor.  This is all getting bitter sweet for me.

We know from TOS that at some point he goes to study on Vulcan (presumably leaving Enterprise to do so) and becomes an expert on Vulcan physiology (and my head canon is now he also goes there hoping to learn some emotional control practices to help with his PTSD).  He then later returns to Enterprise and serves as some kind of assistant to McCoy (we see M'Benga in two TOS episodes).

Edited July 31, 2023 by QuantumMechanic

[ML89]

On 7/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, Frozendiva said:

Was not expecting the doctor to be the real butcher of )’Gal. It did make sense with him being in his MASH type hospital fixing the wounded and the constant bringing of new patients.

It was very MASH - the constant "incoming transport" instead of "incoming wounded," the tents, the shelling, the way Chapel arrived and was thrown right in. I know it's a difference in age, but you could read M'Benga as like Col Potter, who went into the Army as a soldier then became a doctor (I guess?).

[Zaffy]

6 hours ago, baldryanr said:

M'Benga and Chapel aren't children, they're adults and professionals

M'Benga was not very professional when he put the whole crew in danger to save his daughter...

[Glade]

Open, free dialogue (truth and reconciliation) is what will heal rifts, not dinners where people are supposed to stay silent and ball their fists under the tables.  I didn't care for this episode, but I also absolutely hated 'In The Pale Moonlight,' which was just a celebration of American imperialism, a country where people are encouraged to think they have a right to wage illegal wars and then say 'oops,' and now we also have a self-righteous, uniquely American narrative in favor of the death penalty as "justice" with no genuine rehabilitation or reform possible.  I don't think it's a powerful exploration of gray areas, it's just a nod to the audience that no one really takes the Trek utopian ideals seriously.

[greekmom]

Was not impressed with this episode. Pike shouldn't have been so insistent with his crew that were in the war to join him for dinner. Rah shouldn't have been so insistent on trying to make amends with M'Benga.  I didn't like that Chapel and M'Benga covered up Rah's death.  There should have been consequences. I think it's going to come back and bite M'Benga in the butt as he is the real butcher of J'nah and he can't live with that.

Tapping out for next week's musical episode. I have not been the same since: "They got the mustard out." (joking).

[Zaffy]

53 minutes ago, Glade said:

I don't think it's a powerful exploration of gray areas, it's just a nod to the audience that no one really takes the Trek utopian ideals seriously.

Standing ovation for you! 

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Glade said:

and now we also have a self-righteous, uniquely American narrative in favor of the death penalty as "justice" with no genuine rehabilitation or reform possible. 

I dont see where you are getting this. The point of the episode was not that the morally correct thing to do was X, Y, Z. Rather it's a story, doesnt have to reflect any society's overarching values. It's just what happened. I'd really dislike any series where each and every episode was to be taken as a referendum on the United States or any other country. 

There was nothing in the episode that suggested Rah should be killed nor that reform was impossible. In fact I'd say the point if anything was reform WAS possible- Rah was reformed. He wasnt a double-agent nor did he have a hidden agenda. And M'Benga possibly murdered him. I took it to just be dark, not a moral compass reflecting America's values.

[historylover820]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

Incorrect. S2: A Private Little War ;  S3: That Which Survives

 

Thanks. It's been a while since I've dug out my TOS DVDs and I forgot.

[historylover820]

3 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I dont see where you are getting this. The point of the episode was not that the morally correct thing to do was X, Y, Z. Rather it's a story, doesnt have to reflect any society's overarching values. It's just what happened. I'd really dislike any series where each and every episode was to be taken as a referendum on the United States or any other country. 

There was nothing in the episode that suggested Rah should be killed nor that reform was impossible. In fact I'd say the point if anything was reform WAS possible- Rah was reformed. He wasnt a double-agent nor did he have a hidden agenda. And M'Benga possibly murdered him. I took it to just be dark, not a moral compass reflecting America's values.

I agree with this.

Regarding Pike's actions: there really is no right or wrong. I disagree with his actions of making his war vets dine with a person who they will always see as an enemy. But, this is the actions of a flawed individual.

M'Benga is in the wrong with his actions of killing Rah, although it really could have been self-defense (which would have made it at least justified). Rah's actions triggered M'Benga's PTSD. I do think Rah was genuinely trying to bring the Federation and the Empire together, although he was probably doing this the wrong way. 

I agree, I just see this episode as dark and the characters as flawed, not as an indictment of America.

Personal confession:

I'm ashamed to admit this, but I've suffered from a mild case of PTSD in my past. I still suffer from anxiety. I'm ashamed of my PTSD because I feel I didn't do anything to warrant it. Meaning, I'm not a soldier, I didn't see war, I didn't serve, I didn't see violence. I was traumatized by first a near miss of a car wreck, and I witnessed the driver being killed, and then a couple years later, I got sick to the point where I was in the hospital for a week and was in recovery for 6 months and nearly died.

The near miss was 20 years ago, the sickness was 15 years ago.

I've had therapy to manage dealing with the trauma. I'm not on any medications or anything, and, usually, things are fine. But, you can't just turn it off. Suck it up. Deal with it. With my anxiety, I've been told to not think about it. If I could stop thinking about it, don't you think I would?

So, I can sympathize with the war vets here. OK, maybe they can handle being in the same room as this Klingon general. It's only for an evening. The captain didn't really order their presence, but it's pretty clear that it could become an order. Plus, the captain is a good cook, and they don't want to eat stuff from the replicators. But, it's still not fair that they have to go through that. 

It's sad that there are no counselors on starships during this time to give the counseling that these war vets obviously need.

[Zaffy]

2 hours ago, historylover820 said:

It's sad that there are no counselors on starships during this time to give the counseling that these war vets obviously need.

That's the thing, in such an advanced society there should be counselors (in the ships or not) or shrinks to often evaluate people who have fought to war and be sure they should be able to go out in space trips and in missions that could have to do with ex-enemies. 
Also Pike and/or Una should had requested M'Benga to leave the ship as soon after the incident with his daughter.  The man risked everyone's life for the shake of his child. I would probably do the same, but I would certainly not be fit to serve in a Starfleet ship, or any kind of ship actually.
This is stupid writing for the shake of "drama" and possibly to justify M'Benga's exit.
 

edited to add:
In such advanced societies shouldn't have found a cure for PTSD?  

Edited August 1, 2023 by Zaffy

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Zaffy said:

That's the thing, in such an advanced society there should be counselors (in the ships or not) or shrinks to often evaluate people who have fought to war and be sure they should be able to go out in space trips and in missions that could have to do with ex-enemies. 
Also Pike and/or Una should had requested M'Benga to leave the ship as soon after the incident with his daughter.  The man risked everyone's life for the shake of his child. I would probably do the same, but I would certainly not be fit to serve in a Starfleet ship, or any kind of ship actually.
This is stupid writing for the shake of "drama" and possibly to justify M'Benga's exit.
 

edited to add:
In such advanced societies shouldn't have found a cure for PTSD?  

.I don't think any incarnation of Star Trek has held that the emotional drives of humanity will be fundamentally changed even if we were to eliminate many of the things that currently call war, disease and strife like resource scarcity and prejudice.

In TOS, people still went mad (Those Gods Would Destroy, Dagger of the Mind, Turnabout Intruder). There is no particular reason to think that PTSD would be 100 percent cured assuming it's curable.

Even putting what we've seen aside, there's no guarantee that there will ever be cures for all forms of mental illness, and even assuming that there were, there's no guarantee that someone would make use of them

It's been a while since I watched the Kingdom of Elysium, but I don't think that M'Benga risked the ship for his child. The nebula entity bonded with his child, but it could have just as easily bonded with any other crew member. And I don't think the ship or its crew was in any danger from re-enacting the book, just weirdness. 

[Zaffy]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

And I don't think the ship or its crew was in any danger from re-enacting the book, just weirdness. 

If I recall well there were fights with swords etc etc... you can't call it harmless..

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Glade said:

Open, free dialogue (truth and reconciliation) is what will heal rifts, not dinners where people are supposed to stay silent and ball their fists under the tables.  I didn't care for this episode, but I also absolutely hated 'In The Pale Moonlight,' which was just a celebration of American imperialism, a country where people are encouraged to think they have a right to wage illegal wars and then say 'oops,' and now we also have a self-righteous, uniquely American narrative in favor of the death penalty as "justice" with no genuine rehabilitation or reform possible.  I don't think it's a powerful exploration of gray areas, it's just a nod to the audience that no one really takes the Trek utopian ideals seriously.

I think the episode isn't saying that no one takes the Trek utopian ideals seriously. Certainly Pike does. Pike -- our central character and as such, the show's moral compass -- advocates for people getting second chances.

I think the show raises the question of the conflict between American idealism and pragmatism, the tension between justice and rehabilitation.

I think the show leaves it somewhat gray as to whether Rah had genuinely reformed or if he is still a monster pretending to be a genial saint. He says all the right things about healing and trying to make amends for his past. But he is a liar. Had he admitted that he retreated just before an unknown assassin had come for him, Starfleet would likely not have elevated him to diplomat, and he likely would not have been as effective in the post. Erica is confident that he's lying about his reforming his ways. Is that her paranoia borne of her war experiences, or is that an accurate read of him (albeit based on an incorrect assumption that he is doing it for the Klingons as opposed to his personal self-interest).

I think it's an interesting exploration of: what does it take to maintain this ideal society and is it worth it? What are its blind spots and why does it have them?

According to this episode, it has several possible ones:

The Federation allowed the creation of a performing enhancement drug, then discontinued its use,

The Federation has a black-ops team that is willing to conduct assassinations

The Federation doesn't supply its troops with sufficient supplies despite being a post-scarcity society

The Federation wasn't able to step its efforts up enough to prevent widescale slaughter of civilians

The Federation was willing to turn a blind eye to someone who committed war crimes when it found that person useful

The Federation was not interested in finding out that Rah's story about having killed his own men was untrue when it presumably could have poked holes in it easily (for instance, where was Rah's wounds from fighting three equals in combat? Where was the knife he used to stab all three of them?)

The Federation was willing to order Klingon War veterans to spend time in the presence of this murderer of children and civilians and ask them to ignore this fact and treat him like a dignitary. 

And now, the Federation is likely willing to look the other way as to M'Benga's killing of Rah, in part because uncovering the truth would make its decision-making look bad. 

9 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

If I recall well there were fights with swords etc etc... you can't call it harmless..

The incorporeal entity was controlling the story except for M'Benga and Hemmer, and was doing so in a way to make the kiddo happy. So there was no chance that in retelling the kid's fairytale anyone would be seriously injured, since the kiddo didn't want that. 

Also, other than keeping kiddo secretly on board ship, M'Benga didn't do anything to create the situation or prolong it. It's hard to put it at his feet.

[tv-talk]

Ghosts of Illyria is the ep where crew is in danger because of M'Benga.  The transporter doesnt filter out some weirdness because his daughter's pattern is stored and he continues to hide it as the crew is trying to figure out what went wrong as they all go crazy. Thankfully as usual Una is immune to whatever is going on and saves the day. It's the ep where Una whoops La'an's ass after she attacks her for being modified, it's how Una was found out but Pike of course doesnt really care. He does NOT know about M'Benga's daugher though, only Una knows about that iirc. So again, M'Benga skates by but not due to leniency rather because the pwoers-that-be dont know what happened (except for Una who is lying about herself anyway).

edit- also M'Benga did not know what he was doing could endanger anyone and I think Una says "you couldnt have known." I suspect folks being critical of him trying to save his daughter that way do not have kids!

Edited August 1, 2023 by tv-talk

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Zaffy said:

If I recall well there were fights with swords etc etc... you can't call it harmless..

It was very much for a General Audience.

[paigow]

The fighting was much like TNG!Picard cosplaying as Robin Hood

[paigow]

The transporter buffers at the field hospital should have failed if hundreds / thousands of patterns are being stored. A single pattern in storage basically crashed the Enterprise system. The hospital should have been unable to transport new patients. 

[historylover820]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:03 PM, Zaffy said:

That's the thing, in such an advanced society there should be counselors (in the ships or not) or shrinks to often evaluate people who have fought to war and be sure they should be able to go out in space trips and in missions that could have to do with ex-enemies. 
Also Pike and/or Una should had requested M'Benga to leave the ship as soon after the incident with his daughter.  The man risked everyone's life for the shake of his child. I would probably do the same, but I would certainly not be fit to serve in a Starfleet ship, or any kind of ship actually.
This is stupid writing for the shake of "drama" and possibly to justify M'Benga's exit.
 

edited to add:
In such advanced societies shouldn't have found a cure for PTSD?  

I do agree with this.

And, yeah, police stations have counselors today. Mental health is important in today's society. Heck, even MASH, set in the Korean War, had an army psychiatrist as a recurring character. How did the idea of mental health issues go from today's world where mental health issues are getting more and more normalized to 200 years from now that there's nothing, then back about 75-80 years later to where the counselor sits in the seat by the captain?

[paigow]

53 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

How did the idea of mental health issues go from today's world where mental health issues are getting more and more normalized to 200 years from now that there's nothing, then back about 75-80 years later to where the counselor sits in the seat by the captain?

There were not enough alien mind-readers / lie detectors recruited yet...

[tv-talk]

10 hours ago, historylover820 said:

How did the idea of mental health issues go from today's world where mental health issues are getting more and more normalized to 200 years from now that there's nothing, then back about 75-80 years later to where the counselor sits in the seat by the captain?

Maybe they realized that therapy-speak had become too ubiquitous and the pendulum swung back? Troi though is a different case, she wasnt just a therapist sitting by the capt, she was almost a mind-reader who was getting a read on the various aliens Picard was parlaying with in a way that a normal counselor or therapist could not have done.

[tennisgurl]

Talk about tonal whiplash, watching the last episode and then this one has left me with some serious neck pain. That was a mostly really good episode, even with the weird ending, and very intense. It reminded me a lot of DS9 with its examination of war, how nasty it can be, and its long term consequences. I'm certainly ready to start singing after all that heaviness. 

I think that Pike was being written kind of oddly, he's normally a lot more perceptive about his crew and he knew how much some of them were struggling, like the show really needed him to be a bit insensitive to get the "if you weren't there, you cant know" message across. On the other hand, you could also make a fair argument that he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, between following orders from Starfleet command and wanting any means for peace, and wanting to respect the members of his staff who are clearly deeply hurt by this guys presence. I think he was doing as well as he could under the circumstances. He did give them the option not to come to dinner after all.

I really felt for M'Benga, Chapel, and Ortegas, the actors all did a great job showing their intense distress, and the guy playing Rah also did great at making a big impact in such a short time. I like that they kept a lot about him ambiguous, especially his motives. Was he truly changed after seeing the bloodshed of the war and does want peace, or is this all self serving to get a cushy home in the Federation? Some combination of both? Was it better than a war criminal died or would it have been better if he had kept spreading a message of peace? Did he feel remorse or was he just a coward? 

On the other hand, I don't really like that they played so ambiguous in whether or not M'Benga killed him out of anger or out of self defense, or even if Rah pushed M'Benga into killing him because he knew the jig was up and didn't want to deal with the consequences. It was a weird confusing note to end what was otherwise a strong episode on.

Edited August 2, 2023 by tennisgurl

[Chicago Redshirt]

On rewatch, I think overall I liked the episode better. But it didn't resolve much of the ambiguity over the end. I think where I currently am at is:

M'Benga is likely guilty of manslaughter at a minimum and Rah did nothing that meaningfully could be called provoking him but for M'Benga being a sufferer of PTSD. Maybe a temp insanity plea could get him off.

Chapel is in on the coverup.

Pike totally knows that M'Benga is likely guilty of manslaughter-plus, but because of his friendship with M'Benga isn't going to rat him out.

Rah had in fact reformed himself and is haunted by what he did. He's not just play-acting.

But it's equally open to the other interpretations where Rah was just feigning reform, and was in the process of assaulting M'Benga, or that Chapel had no idea that M'Benga was anything but a victim of Rah's initiating an attack.

[Starchild]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:02 AM, rtms77 said:

Somehow I have a feeling the truth is going to come out, and while it still may be ambiguous, it’s going to sully M’Benga and Chapels reputations, to the point he’s demoted in favour of McCoy

I wonder if we'd see Boyce first. I know that technically he should have already been onboard, since he was CMO during the events of The Cage, and apparently that's already happened here, but we've seen this show play fast and loose with canon details before.

[paigow]

The Klingon War is over... But TOS!Kirk was in a shooting war that the Organians ended... So killing this Ambassador, nullified all existing agreements? No wonder most of the crew was purged before Kirk takes over...

[Sandman]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:02 AM, rtms77 said:

Pike pretty much guilt tripped the Vets into joining the dinner. Still I blame Starfleet, they are just tone deaf to their vets it seems.

He did; even though the decision came from way over his head, I think some kind of out for the (clearly traumatized!) vets could have been within the captain’s discretion. It was interesting — and sad — to me that M’Benga and Chapel were still responding in a way that was not only in line with ship’s discipline, but also falling back on a soldier’s code: “Our captain needs us.”

I am surprised that both M’Benga and Chapel passed any kind of psych screening for serving on a long-term mission like that of the Enterprise. I don’t believe that the psychologically damaged are broken irrevocably, but the episode makes it obvious that they both have active PTSD. Forget Ship’s Counsellors, does Starfleet Medical not have ANY kind of psychological division? 

This was maybe the least Trek episode in the franchise that I’ve seen, and that’s without any Section 31 or covert Mirror Universe infiltration nonsense: The ship’s CMO straight-up murders a member of the diplomatic corps, the head nurse lies (Christine said she saw the whole thing, and there’s no way she could have) to cover it up, and everyone just carries on like it’s just the third Tuesday of the month?

Or maybe I’m just sore because Spock apologized for “breaching” a sensitive subject, instead of broaching it. C’mon, writers; you can do better than this!

Edited August 13, 2023 by Sandman

[tv-talk]

Does Mbenga actually have ptsd tho? The specific person of Ra sets him off for obvious reasons. Is it ptsd to want to kill him? If you hate someone and want them dead, is that ptsd or a well-deserved hatred of someone? 

 

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Does Mbenga actually have ptsd tho? The specific person of Ra sets him off for obvious reasons. Is it ptsd to want to kill him? If you hate someone and want them dead, is that ptsd or a well-deserved hatred of someone? 

 

He was shaking and having difficulty standing, presumably because of the fight/flight response. That would be active PTSD in its purest form.

I can see that Chapel and M'benga are functional and probably need a certain amount of stress to survive, as people with ptsd often do. We also don't know what therapy they receive or continue to receive. They may not have been approved for combat positions, or security positions where they would be on the front lines. I also was unsure if it was generally known what M'Benga had done, it may have been stricken from the record, so his personal issues with Rah may have been unknown. He may also have been able to game the therapy to some extent, he would know what they wanted him to say.

It isn't unreasonably to expect combatants from opposite sides of a war to break bread together and in fairness, while M'Benga had serious issues, Chapel did all right, as did Ortega. I think he kept the degree of his involvement and ptsd a secret.

5 hours ago, Sandman said:

This was maybe the least Trek episode in the franchise that I’ve seen, and that’s without any Section 31 or covert Mirror Universe infiltration nonsense: The ship’s CMO straight-up murders a member of the diplomatic corps, the head nurse lies (Christine said she saw the whole thing, and there’s no way she could have) to cover it up, and everyone just carries on like it’s just the third Tuesday of the month?

 

Maybe there will be followup next season. It is the beginning of a dialogue on how the federations policies can be hard to follow in real life. Last season Pike's textbook federation approach to preferring negotiation to fighting (as opposed to Kirk) let to hypothetical disasters and war, so this may be one of the overall trek themes of the series. Hypothetically.

[Sandman]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

He was shaking and having difficulty standing, presumably because of the fight/flight response. That would be active PTSD in its purest form.

In addition, I think the flashbacks in the story were presented (YMMV as far as this observation is concerned) as more intrusive and debilitating for both him and Chapel than such storytelling devices usually are — not just a flash of memory, but a “reliving” kind of experience — a defining characteristic of a PTSD diagnosis, as I understand it. 

[Ottis]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:21 PM, tv-talk said:

It was nice to see an episode where nothing was flippant, they were in a serious situation and everyone behaved so.

Agree. I swear I am tuned to the writers' minds, because when I post about one ep and say it would be good to have more X, the next ep has more X.

I *almost* gave up on this ep with all the "war is hell" stuff the first 35 minutes. It finally got more interesting at the end, and the final twist was well done. I love that M'Benga is a real character, with a meaningful back story and depth.

This ep should have run earlier in the series, IMO. We had an episode a few back where M'Benga and Chapel were super warriors (with the green stuff) vs. Klingons, and it poorly depicted their skills and the effects of the fluid. THIS ep did a much better job of explaining that and M'Benga's skills. It left a little hint about Chapel (with M'Benga giving her the vial of fluid) and perhaps she also has some hidden skills, but it would make more sense to give us some of that background before we spend half a season wondering whether an ep missed the point or where the hell something came from.

Also, no way M'Benga doesn't at least get reassigned as a gesture to the Klingons, but hey, TV.

On 7/28/2023 at 12:40 PM, Zaffy said:

Ok...are they trying to make Pike worse captain than Burnham? (I assume, since I haven't watched a single episode with her  as a captain).
Cause right now in my books...he acts more like if he just enjoying being in space with his friends than a true captain.
He speaks to them like if they are his buddies and he covers for their crimes, because..well... they are his friends. A fact that he conveniently forgets when the episode's script demands extra tension (I mean asking from the war veterans to join the dinner with the Klingon? WTH?). 

He explained why he asked the war vets to attend the dinner. And to further that point, the general offered a partnership to M'Benga that actually made sense for the peace process (he just didn't know who M'Benga really was).

That said, I agree with the thought that Pike is being written oddly - but it feels like that's due to the overall plots. He hasn't had to make tough decisions with his crew. So many of these eps are whimsy or gimmicks, few are meaningful explorations of Kobiashi Maru. Maybe that is to come. 

Also? I think his knowledge of his own fate makes him more understanding, and introspective, than, say, Jim Carrey Kirk. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Also, no way M'Benga doesn't at least get reassigned as a gesture to the Klingons, but hey, TV.

I'm not sure why the Klingons would care about Rah. As I understood the ep, Rah was not an ambassador from the Federation to the Klingons. Rather, he seemed to me to be an ambassador from the Federation to other races, and was being trotted out to say "See, the Federation is so welcoming it even has a Klingon ambassador!" 

If he is an ambassador to the Klingons, he is likely a terrible one as he openly dissed the Klingons at every opportunity in this episode and talks about what he did as an atrocity when the Klingons presumably think of everything that happened on J'Gal as justified. They would also likely see Rah's cover story about killing his own men and turning to the Federation as cowardice. Particularly since these Klingons are the honor-uber-alles type, presenting him as an envoy would likely be perceived as an insult. 

But even assuming that Rah was an ambassador to the Klingons and they didn't hate him for what he did, the cover story is that Rah attacked M'Benga and M'Benga killed him in self-defense. I'm not sure what the Klingons would find offensive about that. It seems from what we have seen in previous Trek featuring this style of Klingons that killing is NBD as long as it's honorable.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm not sure why the Klingons would care about Rah. As I understood the ep, Rah was not an ambassador from the Federation to the Klingons. Rather, he seemed to me to be an ambassador from the Federation to other races, and was being trotted out to say "See, the Federation is so welcoming it even has a Klingon ambassador!" 

Hey, there's no predicting Klingons. Maybe all that matters to the more politically oriented Klingon is that one of their own was killed by a human, and they demand justice. In line with Star Trek tradition, that would also align with reflecting today's real life society.