S07.E05: Singapore

[Athena]

Quote

At Ticonderoga, Jamie and Claire prepare for an imminent British assault. Roger compiles information about time travel while Brianna earns the respect of her coworkers.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This may include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[iMonrey]

Is there some reason why the show is spending so much time on William? Does he go on to be the main character in the books or something? I cannot muster any interest in this little side story with him and the Quakers. It would be one thing if he were involved with Jamie and Claire but off on his own with other new characters I don't know or care about? Why?

[GHScorpiosRule]

40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Is there some reason why the show is spending so much time on William? Does he go on to be the main character in the books or something? I cannot muster any interest in this little side story with him and the Quakers. It would be one thing if he were involved with Jamie and Claire but off on his own with other new characters I don't know or care about? Why?

Because these are new characters that Gabaldon thought were necessary. While I’ve only read up to 8, I skimmed all his parts because I’m all about Jamie and Claire. Maybe someone whose read them multiple times and thus have a better memory might be able to provide a better answer?

[nodorothyparker]

William does become a major character in the last three books.

Jamie and William are on an accelerating collision course with each other and a lot of William's interactions going forward are going to be with his unbeknownst to him blood family. Jamie has spent all these years making peace with the idea that he as an American frontiersman and his son as an English lord would likely never have much cause to interact and so it wasn't something to worry about. Remember that William separated from the Hunters to go join the British forces in the same general area they're now trying to flee.

[nodorothyparker]

So much of this episode was made of stuff that I would have guessed would have been cut in trying to pare these big big books down with only a finite number of episodes left to tell this story and so a lot of this felt like a hodgepodge of telling us where all the characters are heading into future episodes rather than one cohesive theme, but it worked out well enough, I think.

Right now, the reintroduction of grown up William and the introduction of the Hunters is reading a little clunky because with the exception of Ian and one brief scene of Lord John and Brianna early in, they've been siloed with only each other away from the rest of the cast and main story. They're telling us who they are, all three of them fundamentally decent young people who have a lot of opinions about how they think the world should be and see the war as their chance to really prove themselves but haven't really been put much to the test yet. That's going to matter as they rush headlong into the revolution and increasing entanglements with the Frasers/Grays.

I'm still enjoying Brianna in the early '80s so much more in the show than I ever did in the books, and I honestly think Sophie Skelton is much better suited as an actress to playing in her native time. Catriona Balfe has been magnificent in always playing Claire as out of her own time but gamely embracing it because to her the payoff is worth it. Skelton's Bree just hasn't really ever managed that and it shows. I loved the beginning and ending with the neglected graveyard. Yes, they have the box of letters they could tear through to find out a lot of what happens if they chose to, but the odds are good they'd still never know her parents' final resting place and she has to figure out how to make peace with that to live in this time.

I snickered that Roger's idea of checking things out is going and standing outside for a minute or so next to a fully lighted trailer and then shrugging. Which, if they're living inside the house now, why is the trailer still lit up like that? The books are lot more ambiguous at this point on the paternity of Swiftest of Lizards, but I get that the show needs to clear the decks for Ian to be able to pursue a new relationship while also drawing parallels to Jamie and William in leaving a child behind for what's seemingly best for him at the time to set up for several stories going forward.

The arguments the show is putting in Jamie's mouth about the fort's defenses are arguments that really did happen as Simon Fraser was a real Highland Scots British brigadier general who did exactly what Jamie warned he would do.

[GHScorpiosRule]

@nodorothyparker or @SassAndSnacks, or any buik reader who knows—can ye explain the episode title? It has me confuzzled. Thank ye!

[McKavity]

@GHScorpiosRule - Jamie’s idea to show not tell, came from Claire describing the Japanese cutting through the forest instead of coming by sea during the war - she described it as the battle of Singapore 

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, McKavity said:

@GHScorpiosRule - Jamie’s idea to show not tell, came from Claire describing the Japanese cutting through the forest instead of coming by sea during the war - she described it as the battle of Singapore 

Thank you!

[sas616]

21 hours ago, McKavity said:

@GHScorpiosRule - Jamie’s idea to show not tell, came from Claire describing the Japanese cutting through the forest instead of coming by sea during the war - she described it as the battle of Singapore 

Thanks!   I totally missed the significance.  

[Cdh20]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:28 PM, iMonrey said:

Is there some reason why the show is spending so much time on William? Does he go on to be the main character in the books or something? I cannot muster any interest in this little side story with him and the Quakers. It would be one thing if he were involved with Jamie and Claire but off on his own with other new characters I don't know or care about? Why?

I could not wait for grown William to interact with the Fraser’s, but I guess she ( the author) wanted us to see him get there….

It made sense for them to let us know already that Emily’s son was indeed Ian’s, as they did not know if they would be making any more seasons, & that is one tied up plot line.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Cdh20
Added a thought

[Cdh20]

I did enjoy Roger & Bree being in the 1900’s in the books, & now I am enjoying them in the show as well. They seem more natural! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Bree is the worst and I canna believe her and Roger, for that matter, acting as if they themselves aren’t time travelers and havna done it! The quick dismissal of what Jem and Mandy have seen as lies. I don’t recall if they acted this way in the buik.

So Bree thinks if she doesn’t read the letters or doesn’t have Roger check, that Jamie and Claire will still be alive?! And how she doesn’t want her kids in the graveyard or making a cairn for Jamie because she doesn’t want to know? The Worst. And I dinna care that she ended up there at the end.

And that MORON French officer, who refused to listen to Jamie. 

The scenes with Wee Ian meeting his son, Wee wee Ian broke my 💔. Though I did love the scenes with Auntie Claire about whether he had “defective” sperm and it made me giggle, too.

WOT?

And damn ye, Charles Vandervart! Yer making me love your William!

I hate to end on a bad note, but GOOD GOD. Who told Sinead that it was a good idea to do that gasping whisper atrocity as the show opens for EVERY.SINGLE.EPISODE??!!! Or didn’t put a kibosh to it if it was her idea? Bring back the first and ORIGINAL singer!!!!!!

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by GHScorpiosRule

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

the first and ORIGINAL singer!!!!!!

That would be Raya Yarbrough, composer Bear McCreary's wife. She usually does the female vocals for his work and his brother Brendan McCreary does the male vocals. I don't know why they would replace her.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That would be Raya Yarbrough, composer Bear McCreary's wife. She usually does the female vocals for his work and his brother Brendan McCreary does the male vocals. I don't know why they would replace her.

Neither do I! I’ve always liked Sinéad, but her rendition of this is HORRIBLE.

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So Bree thinks if she doesn’t read the letters or doesn’t have Roger check, that Jamie and Claire will still be alive?!

She's the daughter of the same woman who never once bothered to check over 20 years that Jamie actually did die instead of just assuming and endlessly moping about it. Time travel apparently really screws with your sense of dead vs. alive in different time lines.

I can actually sort of buy her reasoning that as long as there are letters left their story isn't really over. I would imagine that would be comforting to someone who had to so abruptly jump centuries like that to think of them as contemporary letters continuing where they left off from when Bree and Roger last saw them. But you also have to think at some point the temptation would be too great to not just know, just as it really doesn't make any sense to not ask Jem what he knows about the Spaniard and his grandfather's hiding place before another three years have passed and the kid has no damn idea what you're talking about. Kids' memories are so spotty about anything that isn't immediate to them even if stories like this one would have you believe otherwise.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

She's the daughter of the same woman who never once bothered to check over 20 years that Jamie actually did die instead of just assuming and endlessly moping about it.

But wasn’t that because she’d promised Frank she wouldn’t? Wasn’t that-looking and checking-part of her promise to Frank?

Fair point aboot the letters. But I’m still 😒😒😒😒 at them both thinking their children are lying aboot the Knucklavee.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Neither do I! I’ve always liked Sinéad, but her rendition of this is HORRIBLE.

I don't hate it or think it's as bad as all that, but it's my least favorite version so far. My Mom can't stand it, so I've been having to fast forward through the opening titles, and she thinks the whispering (which I don't fast forward through because I don't want us to miss the unique title card of each episode) is ridiculous.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Haleth]

I absolutely loved how the theme song reflected the setting of each season in the past.  It was always something to look forward to; what would the new season's song sound like?  This year's is horrible.  I don't know if it's meant to be so out of tune (the fog of war?) but I have to FF through it too. 

Not enough Claire and Jamie.  Too much everyone else.

[ch1]

The theme song is so unpleasant to listen too.  I have to mute it.  

Since the show is gearing up the revolution this year maybe they should have chosen an American singer.

[SassAndSnacks]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:20 AM, nodorothyparker said:

So much of this episode was made of stuff that I would have guessed would have been cut in trying to pare these big big books down with only a finite number of episodes left to tell this story and so a lot of this felt like a hodgepodge of telling us where all the characters are heading into future episodes rather than one cohesive theme, but it worked out well enough, I think.

THIS!!!  Book 7 has a lot of viable fat to trim, and so far, they haven't trimmed the fat that I thought they would, with the exception of the pirate attack.  

On 7/15/2023 at 10:20 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Right now, the reintroduction of grown up William and the introduction of the Hunters is reading a little clunky because with the exception of Ian and one brief scene of Lord John and Brianna early in, they've been siloed with only each other away from the rest of the cast and main story.

Their storyline feels like a separate show.  As does Bree/Roger/Kids.  And I know the book is this way too, but it feels all disjointed.  This is really my criticism of the overall story/Book 7, and not so much the show.  Echo is my least favorite.

On 7/15/2023 at 10:20 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I snickered that Roger's idea of checking things out is going and standing outside for a minute or so next to a fully lighted trailer and then shrugging.

Show continues to do Roger dirty.  And I love Richard Rankin.

On 7/17/2023 at 1:18 PM, Cdh20 said:

I did enjoy Roger & Bree being in the 1900’s in the books, & now I am enjoying them in the show as well. They seem more natural! 

100% agree!

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And damn ye, Charles Vandervart! Yer making me love your William!

YES!  I'm "no a fan" of Buik William, but show William...yes, please!

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Who told Sinead that it was a good idea to do that gasping whisper atrocity as the show opens for EVERY.SINGLE.EPISODE??!!!

 

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I absolutely loved how the theme song reflected the setting of each season in the past.  It was always something to look forward to; what would the new season's song sound like?  This year's is horrible.

The song has always made the season unique and helped to move the show to next stage of the story.  The chorale version of Season 5...my heart...  This version is so cringe.  And if they wanted to go this direction with sound, tone, etc. why not choose a Scottish or an American singer?

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Not enough Claire and Jamie.  Too much everyone else.

Basically my chief complaint.  I want Jamie and Claire.  

[Pingaponga]

How many more episodes are there, because it really feels to me that this is being rushed.

Maybe this is just me, as I spent time this morning in a cemetery looking for old family gravestones, but I find it very strange that Bri and Roger haven't tidied up the graveyard. Her Aunt Jenny, whom she met, is likely buried there. As are her grandparents and cousins.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

How many more episodes are there, because it really feels to me that this is being rushed.

Maybe this is just me, as I spent time this morning in a cemetery looking for old family gravestones, but I find it very strange that Bri and Roger haven't tidied up the graveyard. Her Aunt Jenny, whom she met, is likely buried there. As are her grandparents and cousins.

There are a total of 16 episodes for this season. But as with the first season, it’s split; there are three more episodes until the “mid-season” finale. The last 8 will air sometime next year.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

17 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

Maybe this is just me, as I spent time this morning in a cemetery looking for old family gravestones, but I find it very strange that Bri and Roger haven't tidied up the graveyard. Her Aunt Jenny, whom she met, is likely buried there. As are her grandparents and cousins.

That's why they haven't. Same reason Bree didn't want to check for Jamie's gravestone at first. She's been deliberately avoiding seeing material evidence of those people as dead because they were alive for her relatively recently and it's painful for her.

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

There are a total of 16 episodes for this season. But as with the first season, it’s split; there are three more episodes until the “mid-season” finale. The last 8 will air sometime next year.

And then ten in the final season. So we have eight episodes of Outlander to look forward to in 2024 and then ten in presumably 2025.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's why they haven't. Same reason Bree didn't want to check for Jamie's gravestone at first. She's been deliberately avoiding seeing material evidence of those people as dead because they were alive for her relatively recently and it's painful for her.

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I could see that when she was just returned to the present and focusing on Amanda’s health. But by the looks of Mandy they have been in the present FOUR or FIVE YEARS. I’m surprised they’ve only read two letters in the span of years. 

[Salacious Kitty]

31 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I could see that when she was just returned to the present and focusing on Amanda’s health. But by the looks of Mandy they have been in the present FOUR or FIVE YEARS. I’m surprised they’ve only read two letters in the span of years. 

Well, they didn't get the chest until they made it to Scotland. It wasn't clear how old the kids were then.

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Well, they didn't get the chest until they made it to Scotland. It wasn't clear how old the kids were then.

Oh yes that’s right! Thank you so much.  It took them a few years to rehab the house though. 

[Salacious Kitty]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh yes that’s right! Thank you so much.  It took them a few years to rehab the house though. 

True. And they're still on like letter #3. 😂

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

But by the looks of Mandy they have been in the present FOUR or FIVE YEARS.

Relatively recent, still painful.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Atlanta]

I wish the show had Bree as an MIT grad like in the book. She graduated, but didn't attend the ceremony. An amazing feat in that time.