Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

I don't say them the same and have never had any confusion except why people couldn't get it wasn't of. 

Interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me (but probably should have) that there are regional differences in pronunciation of, for instance, “should’ve” and “should of.”

Having lived in various northern states, I would say both with the schwa sound.

[shapeshifter]

From today’s NYT Mini Crossword, 5 across:

[Anduin]

On another note, "two hours walk". Should it be hour's? Hours'? Please help.

[Milburn Stone]

I would go with hours'. The understanding is that it is a walk of two hours. That silent "of" makes hours the possessor and walk the possessed. (Even though it is an abstract concept of ownership in this case.)

[Absolom]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me (but probably should have) that there are regional differences in pronunciation of, for instance, “should’ve” and “should of.”

Having lived in various northern states, I would say both with the schwa sound.

One is uh (schwa) and the other is more like ah. I have lived in the south and west.  

[Absolom]

9 hours ago, Anduin said:

On another note, "two hours walk". Should it be hour's? Hours'? Please help.

I would say a two hour walk. The hour doesn't possess anything so hour's and hours' are both out. 

[shapeshifter]

On 12/16/2024 at 3:11 AM, shapeshifter said:

Interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me (but probably should have) that there are regional differences in pronunciation of, for instance, “should’ve” and “should of.”

Having lived in various northern states, I would say both with the schwa sound.

On 12/16/2024 at 11:22 AM, Absolom said:

One is uh (schwa) and the other is more like ah. I have lived in the south and west.  

That makes sense since "have" is a short A sound.
Now I'm wondering if most of the "could of", "should of," and "would of" typers are northerners.
And then there are all the varieties of Brit speak out there.

 

 

[StatisticalOutlier]

I've got the same coughing crud I had a year ago, so I'm looking for an urgent care place to go to, even though I know they won't give me the good cough syrup that actually works but I've got to do something.

There's one place called AfterOurs urgent care.  WTF, right?  After our what?  Who's included in "our"?  Could it possibly have been a typo and they just doubled down?

But it gets worse:  "Hear What Our Patient's Are Saying."  And that's after letting their "comprised of" slide, as well as "walk-in or reserve your spot" because everybody commits both of those crimes all the time. 

But then we have this: 

Quote

Our patients feedback provides immense value by enabling our continual service refinement, propelling us closer to our mission of providing each patient with a one-in-a-kind experience! Below we have taken the liberty of including an assortment of feedback for transparency and your convenience.

Assaults on the language, gobbledygook, and what looks to me like a sprinkling of AI help.  And this is not a case of, "Well, he's a plumber.  What do you expect?"

The nearest alternative got slapped with a fine by the government for a whistleblower complaint regarding upcoding Medicare charges.  Have they learned their lesson?  And if so, which lesson?  Don't do it, or be more careful when you're doing it?

I wish I'd just started driving around and stopped at the first one I came to.

[Dimity]

[annzeepark914]

By golly, you've done it Dimity! IMNSHO, this is a perfect explanation, er, illustration.🧐

[Zella]

As I've said before on here, don't use this one in a job interview. Ask me how I know. . . .

 

Edited December 21, 2024 by Zella

[Salacious Kitty]

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

As I've said before on here, don't use this one in a job interview. Ask me how I know. . . .

 

Your linky no worky. I assume it's the hookers and Stalin defense of the Oxford comma. 😀

[Zella]

44 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Your linky no worky. I assume it's the hookers and Stalin defense of the Oxford comma. 😀

Thanks for the head's up! I think I fixed it and yes you're correct. LOL

[Ancaster]

On 12/16/2024 at 8:22 AM, Absolom said:

One is uh (schwa) and the other is more like ah. I have lived in the south and west.  

"Should of" is incorrect - it should always be "should have."

[Absolom]

Of course it is.  I was merely saying that I don't hear them the same when spoken.

[shapeshifter]

On 12/20/2024 at 10:42 PM, Zella said:

As I've said before on here, don't use this one in a job interview. Ask me how I know. . . .

 

Here's a more legible (to me) version:

It took me a few moments to understand it because of the top row of images, and then the JFK depiction is not a good likeness (yes, I paint portraits*).
Neither is Stalin, but there's the 'stache.
 

*…like Woodrow Wilson for a project at the college where I worked:

 

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

The following sentence made me scratch my head.  Did I somehow miss The Big One that caused California to migrate significantly?  (Of course, I'd also capitalize Mediterranean, so maybe I'm just too picky.)

People have tried to re-plant these babies in California and elsewhere in the mediterranean.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Ancaster said:

The following sentence made me scratch my head.  Did I somehow miss The Big One that caused California to migrate significantly?  (Of course, I'd also capitalize Mediterranean, so maybe I'm just too picky.)

People have tried to re-plant these babies in California and elsewhere in the mediterranean.

I'm gonna need more context, @Ancaster.
Are we talking about Cabbage Patch dolls or wine grapes or migrants or…?

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm gonna need more context, @Ancaster.
Are we talking about Cabbage Patch dolls or wine grapes or migrants or…?

Actually, olive trees, but I prefer the idea of Cabbage Patch dolls.

[SoMuchTV]

11 hours ago, Ancaster said:

The following sentence made me scratch my head.  Did I somehow miss The Big One that caused California to migrate significantly?  (Of course, I'd also capitalize Mediterranean, so maybe I'm just too picky.)

People have tried to re-plant these babies in California and elsewhere in the mediterranean.

 

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm gonna need more context, @Ancaster.
Are we talking about Cabbage Patch dolls or wine grapes or migrants or…?

 

3 hours ago, Ancaster said:

Actually, olive trees, but I prefer the idea of Cabbage Patch dolls.

Is your issue that you're reading it as they're referring to California as "elsewhere in the mediterranean"?  My take, once I knew they were the original text was referring to olive trees, was that they the trees originated from one place in the "mediterranean" (yeah, my spell-checker wants me to capitalize that too) and people tried to replant them elsewhere in the "mediterranean", and also in California.

Now, "these babies" is a whole other thing.  Unless it's in keeping with the tone of the original piece. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by SoMuchTV
Since we're in the grammar thread, I should probably make it less ambiguous.

[shapeshifter]

Is there a grammatical "rule" for using the incorrect form when paraphrasing a well-known original? The original line was "my grandfather and me" but I have changed it to "my grand-toddler and I" which sounds wrong to me in this instance. 
Or is there a better rewrite? 

Might need another comma or two.

ETA:
My daughter and her 2 little ones all have birthdays the middle week of January, so I thought I'd print it and put it in a simple frame for the playroom.

Edited December 27, 2024 by shapeshifter

[Milburn Stone]

My take: "My grand-toddler and I" doesn't sound wrong to my ear at all! And is certainly correct, unlike the original line with "me," which makes me want to jump off a cliff. The only thing wrong to me in the line is the insertion of the comma after that phrase. The verb in the line comes immediately after the compound noun--no clause of any sort between them--and should not be separated by punctuation.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

My take: "My grand-toddler and I" doesn't sound wrong to my ear at all! And is certainly correct, unlike the original line with "me," which makes me want to jump off a cliff. The only thing wrong to me in the line is the insertion of the comma after that phrase. The verb in the line comes immediately after the compound noun--no clause of any sort between them--and should not be separated by punctuation.

Take 2:

(To the tune of Sloop John B)

• My grand-toddler and I, 
  built a house out of couch cushions, 
  and in a pretend car, 
  went out on pretend missions,
  Stopping for lots of pretend animals,
  that were crossing the road,
  And saw that mixing just
  blue and yellow playdough,
  To make a snake that became a gecko, 
  with arms,
  Can be nicer than
  mixing all colors into brown.

So nobody thinks "me" works here?
 

Edited December 28, 2024 by shapeshifter

[Zella]

19 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Take 2:

(To the tune of Sloop John B)

• My grand-toddler and I, 
  built a house out of couch cushions, 
  and in a pretend car, 
  went out on pretend missions,
  Stopping for lots of pretend animals,
  that were crossing the road,
  And saw that mixing just
  blue and yellow playdough,
  To make a snake that became a gecko, 
  with arms,
  Can be nicer than
  mixing all colors into brown.

So nobody thinks "me" works here?
 

No, it would be incorrect, and Milburn is also right about the commas being wrong in that first sentence. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

100% agree on taking out that first comma, and actually thought of that when you said "Might need another comma or two."  But I noticed you retained it in Version 2, I think because you're putting commas at the end of every line, which is not necessary.

 

Here's my version, with changes to commas at the ends of lines, making sentences, standardizing capitalization at the beginning of lines, and correcting "playdough."  I'm basically treating it as a poem (not that I'm in the least a poet) because I can't put the words to the tune in my head. 

My grand-toddler and I
built a house out of couch cushions, 
and in a pretend car
went out on pretend missions,
stopping for lots of pretend animals
that were crossing the road.
And saw that mixing just
blue and yellow Play-Doh,
to make a snake that became a gecko
with arms, can be nicer than
mixing all colors into brown.

I'm not rock solid on the commas surrounding "to make a snake that became a gecko with arms."  Putting commas around it makes it more of an afterthought, or an ancillary point (remember, I'm a holistic grammarian and don't know the terminology).  If the snake->gecko is integral to the action, putting commas around it makes it non-integral.

I have to say, though, that I find the "with arms" awkward, because all geckos have arms.  What's actually happening is making a snake that with arms became a gecko.  But of course that's not poetic at all.  Whatever you do, "with arms" should not be enclosed by commas.

And if you take out the arms, I would make it a sentence with no commas: 

And saw that mixing just
blue and yellow Play-Doh
to make a snake that became a gecko
can be nicer than
mixing all colors into brown.

Or, actually, I'm re-reading the first part without any commas, and I don't hate it.  I read poems in The New Yorker every once in a while and sometimes the run-on sentences kind of sing.  But I also like the contrast of the first sentence having the pauses, and the second sentence not.

 

 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So nobody thinks "me" works here?

You wouldn't say, "Me built a house out of couch cushions," and it doesn't suddenly become "me" rather than "I" when adding the kid.

[Lugal]

On 12/27/2024 at 10:58 AM, shapeshifter said:

Is there a grammatical "rule" for using the incorrect form when paraphrasing a well-known original? The original line was "my grandfather and me" but I have changed it to "my grand-toddler and I" which sounds wrong to me in this instance. 
Or is there a better rewrite? 

Might need another comma or two.

ETA:
My daughter and her 2 little ones all have birthdays the middle week of January, so I thought I'd print it and put it in a simple frame for the playroom.

Actually you should take out the comma between I and built or add a we after the comma and create a dislocated clause (technically a left-dislocated clause).

My grand-toddler and I built a house out of couch cushions

My grand-toddler and I, we built a house out of couch cushions

On 12/17/2024 at 9:58 AM, shapeshifter said:

Now I'm wondering if most of the "could of", "should of," and "would of" typers are northerners.

Could of and could've sound identical to me and I am from the north.  In the future people will find this interesting.

In the 4th Century, a Roman grammarian named Marcus Valerius Probus wrote a whole treatise correcting spelling and grammar mistakes of his day (ex. viridis non virdis).  Linguists find it fascinating today because it gives a clue of how Latin was pronounced right when it was first starting to diverge into Romance languages.

And for the record, Probus was fighting the tide: Viridus became verde in Spanish, vert in French and so on.

[meep.meep]

On 12/25/2024 at 10:32 PM, Ancaster said:

The following sentence made me scratch my head.  Did I somehow miss The Big One that caused California to migrate significantly?  (Of course, I'd also capitalize Mediterranean, so maybe I'm just too picky.)

People have tried to re-plant these babies in California and elsewhere in the mediterranean.

It's terribly written.  Most of California has a mediterranean climate and perhaps that's what the writer is referring to.  The countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea have that kind of climate (temperate, wet winters, dry summers, low rainfall), but so do parts of Australia, South America, and South Africa.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

You wouldn't say, "Me built a house out of couch cushions," and it doesn't suddenly become "me" rather than "I" when adding the kid.

It was the opposite. I changed it to "I" because of adding a kid.
The original is:

• We come on the sloop John B
  My grandfather and me
  Around Nassau town we did roam
  Drinking all night
  Got into a fight
  Well, I feel so broke up
  I want to go home

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

It was the opposite. I changed it to "I" because of adding a kid.
The original is:

I know the song.  I can't put your words to it, but I know the tune.  When you asked if "me" worked, I figured you were referring to keeping it like the song -- "my grandtoddler and me" -- rather than correctly changing it to "my grandtoddler and I" as you'd done.

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I know the song.  I can't put your words to it, but I know the tune.  When you asked if "me" worked, I figured you were referring to keeping it like the song -- "my grandtoddler and me" -- rather than correctly changing it to "my grandtoddler and I" as you'd done.

Exactly. 
But likely the grandkids' generation won't know that song anyway, unless some popular group does a new cover.

I'm going to try reworking it so it stands on its own.
And thanks, @StatisticalOutlier, for calling out some of the issues upthread.

Edited December 28, 2024 by shapeshifter

[SVNBob]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But likely the grandkids' generation won't know that song anyway, unless some popular group does a new cover.

It's pretty well known in certain circles.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, SVNBob said:

It's pretty well known in certain circles.

Heh. 
A few months ago the 2-year-old grandson who pointed out that the gecko had “arms” would mournfully say “I want to go home” whenever he was tired — even if he was home.

Edited December 29, 2024 by shapeshifter

[annzeepark914]

On 12/28/2024 at 12:25 PM, shapeshifter said:

Take 2:

(To the tune of Sloop John B)

• My grand-toddler and I, 
  built a house out of couch cushions, 
  and in a pretend car, 
  went out on pretend missions,
  Stopping for lots of pretend animals,
  that were crossing the road,
  And saw that mixing just
  blue and yellow playdough,
  To make a snake that became a gecko, 
  with arms,
  Can be nicer than
  mixing all colors into brown.

So nobody thinks "me" works here?
 

I do!! Probably because I now have the John B sloop music playing in my head.  And I'd sub granbaby for grand-toddler 'cause that's how I roll. That must've been a fun (& precious) pretend trip 🤗

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

I do!! Probably because I now have the John B sloop music playing in my head.  And I'd sub granbaby for grand-toddler 'cause that's how I roll. That must've been a fun (& precious) pretend trip 🤗

Thank you for understanding my grammar versus familiar usage dilemma.
I'm putting "me" back on the table for now, but maybe I need to just reword it.
Ending the line with "he" (evocative of the sound "me") would probably be impossible…🤔  

Likewise, I understand the impetus to use "granbaby" or "grand-baby" there, but "grand-toddler" sounds like "grandfather."
And "toddler" is more specific (at least in my current mind) for painting a picture of the child taking control of the play.

[annzeepark914]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

🤔

Likewise, I understand the impetus to use "granbaby" or "grand-baby" there, but "grand-toddler" sounds like "grandfather."
And "toddler" is more specific (at least in my current mind) for painting a picture of the child taking control of the play.

So, Lambchop was driving the bus? That's so cute!

[EtheltoTillie]

@shapeshifter I feel this poem should be reworded somewhat to scan and follow the original.  Here is my suggested start: 

We went on a cushion spree

My grandtoddler and me.

Around the house we raced in our pretend car.....

 

 

Maybe keep going from there. I think it's okay to use me as in the original instead of I. 
but I was most bugged by the reversal of the first two lines. 

Please don't take offense.  This has been bugging me, though, to figure out a suggestion. 

 

Edited January 2 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

@shapeshifter I feel this poem should be reworded somewhat to scan and follow the original.  Here is my suggested start: 

We went on a cushion spree

My grandtoddler and me.

Around the house we raced in our pretend car.....

 

 

Maybe keep going from there. I think it's okay to use me as in the original instead of I. 
but I was most bugged by the reversal of the first two lines. 

Please don't take offense.  This has been bugging me, though, to figure out a suggestion. 

 

Excellent suggestion, especially with regard to the order of the content following the original more closely.

[EtheltoTillie]

Or else just use your original language in a different poem that has nothing to do with sloop john B.  You have lots of good images. 

@shapeshifter If you go back to the below version and just forget about sloop john b, it's a really nice poem 

 

My grand-toddler and I, 
built a house out of couch cushions, 
and in a pretend car, 
went out on pretend missions,
Stopping for lots of pretend animals,
that were crossing the road,
And saw that mixing just
blue and yellow playdough,
To make a snake that became a gecko, 
with arms,
Can be nicer than
mixing all colors into brown.

[annzeepark914]

I think EtheltoTillie and shapeshifter need to meet and create some fun books for little children 🤗.

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

I think EtheltoTillie and shapeshifter need to meet and create some fun books for little children 🤗.

I'm sure you could help too, at least with rating the cuteness factor. 

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Or else just use your original language in a different poem that has nothing to do with sloop john B.  You have lots of good images. 

@shapeshifter If you go back to the below version and just forget about sloop john b, it's a really nice poem 

 

My grand-toddler and I, 
built a house out of couch cushions, 
and in a pretend car, 
went out on pretend missions,
Stopping for lots of pretend animals,
that were crossing the road,
And saw that mixing just
blue and yellow playdough,
To make a snake that became a gecko, 
with arms,
Can be nicer than
mixing all colors into brown.

Yes, I hadn’t weighed in on the grammar issues, and I think this put the finger on why I wasn’t sure what to suggest. The source material is really more of a collection of thoughts and phrases, so the I/me issue doesn’t sound wrong at all to me. I’m familiar with the original song but when I read your poem, I’m not fitting it back to the original. 

I agree with @EtheltoTillie - fit your poem to the original, or let it stand on its own. I think the original I/me question is a red herring. 

[shapeshifter]

Thanks everyone for your help. 
I still need to do some minor format tweaking and a final print and framing, but I feel like I have something to bring to the double-birthday party (they're both still officially "toddlers") to kids who have more books, clothes, and toys than at any daycare center.

[EtheltoTillie]

How nice you did a picture of a sloop. Great idea and uses your painting talent. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

How nice you did a picture of a sloop. Great idea and uses your painting talent. 

Thanks. It's actually one I painted in 2014.
My kids are going to fight over who gets stuck with all my artwork instead of who gets to have it, heh.

If I come up with a rhyme for "I" in the first line, I might still change the text; it's in Photoshop.
 

Edited January 7 by shapeshifter
2014, not 2017

[EtheltoTillie]

Just now, shapeshifter said:

Thanks. It's actually one I painted in 2017.
My kids are going to fight over who gets stuck with all my artwork instead of who gets to have it, heh.

If I come up with a rhyme for "I" in the first line, I might still change the text; it's in Photoshop.
 

You don’t need that. You have subtle rhymes with cushions and missions. Dough and road. The rest is nice free verse. 

[annzeepark914]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

You don’t need that. You have subtle rhymes with cushions and missions. Dough and road. The rest is nice free verse. 

And it's a fun memory of a pretend voyage with a wonderful little boy 🩵

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Thanks. It's actually one I painted in 2014.

It's amazing. The whole thing is.

[StatisticalOutlier]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If I come up with a rhyme for "I" in the first line, I might still change the text; it's in Photoshop.

Why do you have a comma after that "I"?

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Why do you have a comma after that "I"?

Just because it’s the end of a line in a poem — I still need to reprint it, so I could nix the comma…