Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm more troubled by the image of a highway holding a key.

A highway holding a key doesn't bother me, mostly because one of the songs that lives inside my head when I go for walks on the beach is “Key to the Highway,” but also:
From the OED,
under Key: noun
I. An instrument designed to be inserted into a lock and turned.

Quote

II.4.a. — Something likened metaphorically to a key in having the power to open or close something else; a thing which provides access or opportunity; a means to a desired objective.…
2009 — “Consumption, more than romance, is the newly minted key to an adolescent girl's heart.”
B. J. Berg, Sexism in Amer. xviii. 239

 

Edited December 4 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

On 11/26/2024 at 3:47 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

Okay, I give up.  I'm not a fan of the "Tapping is..." sentence, but I give a lot of slack to signs if the meaning is clear.  There's only so much you can do within the limitations of a sign.  But no slack for misspelled words or bad punctuation, of course.  There are no limitations that excuse that.

And "copy edit" is not any verb I'm aware of.  (The quote thing is not working, but here's what was written.)

 "I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign"

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I don’t recall having heard ”drug” used as a verb prior to listening to this song.

I'm guessing you haven't spent much with native Texans.  It sounds completely normal to me, even outside the context of song lyrics.

[Zella]

30 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I'm guessing you haven't spent much with native Texans.  It sounds completely normal to me, even outside the context of song lyrics.

I hear it all the time too. I live in Arkansas and am originally from North Carolina. I have a master's degree in English but will never not crack up at the frequent football insult I hear involving drug. "That team has a drug problem. They get drug up and down the field." 

[fairffaxx]

Don't forget Arkansas native Dizzy Dean announcing that a baseball player slud into third base.

[Absolom]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I don’t recall having heard ”drug” used as a verb prior to listening to this song.

I heard it in the southern US growing up.  It was used instead of the correct form dragged.

[Ancaster]

I was drug up.  Weren't you?

[EtheltoTillie]

20 hours ago, Ancaster said:

And "copy edit" is not any verb I'm aware of.  (The quote thing is not working, but here's what was written.)

 "I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign"

Copy editor is a job title in publishing.  Copy edit is the verb.  One important element of the job is to correct grammar and punctuation errors.  I had that job for many years. 

But also I was referring back to an earlier post about guerilla sign copy editors (who would mark up error-filled signs).

[Milburn Stone]

You are absolutely correct, @shapeshifter. I don't know why, in the exact moment of writing my post, a highway holding a key felt awkward to me--not wrong by any means, awkward--it just did. But it doesn't today.

Edited December 5 by Milburn Stone

[StatisticalOutlier]

11 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

a highway holding a key felt awkward to me--not wrong by any means, awkward--it just did. But it doesn't today.

I've always called myself a holistic grammarian, because I don't know any of the rules or parts of speech and couldn't diagram a sentence if my life depended on it, but somehow what sounds right to me pretty much always comports with the rules. 

And now I find out emotional grammarian is a thing.

Edited December 6 by StatisticalOutlier
"Almost pretty much always" is not a good look in a grammar thread.

[shapeshifter]

40 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

You are absolutely correct, @shapeshifter. I don't know why, in the exact moment of writing my post, a highway holding a key felt awkward to me--not wrong by any means, awkward--it just did. But it doesn't today.

Perhaps some well-worn pathway in your brain perceived:
“a highway holding a key”
as a typo for:
“a driver of a vehicle on a highway holding a key”
— which is terribly awkward phrasing too, hence the ol’ brain returning a message of “does not compute.”
🤖👾😐🙂

[Milburn Stone]

If I explained the visual image that came into my mind when I saw a highway holding a key yesterday, you'd have to do an intervention.

[shapeshifter]

As seen on FB:

• Santa has been reading your posts all year.
  Most of you are getting dictionaries.

Feel free to substitute Strunk and White or your favorite reference book.

[StatisticalOutlier]

I was listening to an interview on Science Friday (I think) on NPR, of (with?) a guy who studies the human microbiome, and was so distracted by his grammar.  "Me and my wife share x% of our microbiome."  "The micobiome of me and my friends..."  I guess it's okay because I understood what he was saying?

This seems to be more prevalent among younger people these days, although I remember about 30 years ago, a guy I know was applying to a Psy.D program and he had to write a personal essay.  His opening sentence began, "Me and my sister were raised..."  And they accepted him.  Good thing I wasn't on the admissions committee; I'm sure it doesn't affect whether he's an effective therapist, but I just can't help judging people, especially in a professional setting.

Then again, I was just reading a story about a local Thai restaurant, and the owner said that someone in the neighborhood contacted her and offered to correct misspellings and other manglings of English on her menu, and she took her up on it.  I wanted to kiss both of them.

[fairffaxx]

The Thai woman has a good excuse, which is more than can be said for the Psy.D applicant 30 years ago, unless his native language wasn't English.

On the other hand, I know lots of people whose native language wasn't English & had to learn it in school from books & all of them use perfect grammar.  

[Zella]

Just anecdotally but when I taught college-level comp, many of my students who were not native English speakers were better writers and used better grammar than the ones who were. Not true for everyone on either side, but it was a general trend I noticed. 

[Salacious Kitty]

19 minutes ago, Zella said:

Just anecdotally but when I taught college-level comp, many of my students who were not native English speakers were better writers and used better grammar than the ones who were. Not true for everyone on either side, but it was a general trend I noticed. 

I noticed the same in my years as a college English tutor. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

1 hour ago, fairffaxx said:

The Thai woman has a good excuse, which is more than can be said for the Psy.D applicant 30 years ago, unless his native language wasn't English.

Nah, he's an American, although he did live in (the non-French part of) Canada for a few years.  None of that should result in "Me and my sister..."

Quote

On the other hand, I know lots of people whose native language wasn't English & had to learn it in school from books & all of them use perfect grammar.  

My native language is English, and I started taking Spanish in the 7th grade.  I won the Spanish award in high school, and was flummoxed.  I protested to the teacher, "I dare say [Spanish III classmates] Cuthberto and Javier are better at Spanish than I am."  But she explained that they don't use what I'd call "book" Spanish (I can't remember the term she used)...like she said a lot of native speakers say "nadien" for "no one," when it's actually "nadie."  I guess it makes sense they wouldn't test as well as I did.

But what I do know is that I was a very lazy student, and when we'd be assigned a book to read, I would never read it.  I clearly remember a book called El Frijolito Saltón, and just before the test I asked Javier, "So what happens in the book?" and he said it was about a Mexican jumping bean that travels to the U.S. and he described some of the adventures.  Gracias, Javier. 

[Absolom]

My children were the same in Spanish.  They didn't grow up hearing improper grammar.  They had only heard correct grammar unntil they began watching telenovelas.

[Quof]

A young colleague is assisting me on a file and I asked her to write a letter to the client.  The substance of the letter was straight forward, so I assumed she could handle it without me double checking.   The letter she sent began "Quof and myself are..."

I told her to never write to anyone on this file without sending me a draft to proofread. Not for content but for grammar.  

Good God, this woman has 3 university degrees. 

[Ohiopirate02]

12 hours ago, Zella said:

Just anecdotally but when I taught college-level comp, many of my students who were not native English speakers were better writers and used better grammar than the ones who were. Not true for everyone on either side, but it was a general trend I noticed. 

I can believe that because I learned more about grammar when I was in a French class than what was taught in English reading and literature. But, I was in high school when words like subjunctive were used, and I learned English as a child. I leaned about how to craft a sentence in English using the subjunctive without ever being taught that exact word because it's a tad advanced for 3rd grade. 

[Zella]

40 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can believe that because I learned more about grammar when I was in a French class than what was taught in English reading and literature. But, I was in high school when words like subjunctive were used, and I learned English as a child. I leaned about how to craft a sentence in English using the subjunctive without ever being taught that exact word because it's a tad advanced for 3rd grade. 

Yes exactly! As a college English major who ended up getting a graduate degree in the subject, I know English grammar now, but I didn't really learn the technical terms for many grammatical concepts as I initially learned English as a very young child.  

[Absolom]

Some US schools have trouble with parents helping their children too much such that some written assignments are more parent written than child written.  The sixth grade teachers at the grandkids' elementary school asked the parents not to help with homework at all. The story ends with my daughter saying she will continue to read assignments and have the child redo as the teacher was not correcting grammar or spelling.  ::smh::  How are they supposed to learn grammar if it isn't taught?  I have yet to see a grammar assignment and the older child is in middle school.  I've only seen punctuation corrected through second grade.  The excuse is they don't want to inhibit "expression."

[Zella]

That attitude really saddens and irritates me because punctuation can further enhance expression! Joining a comma splice with a dash conveys a very different attitude than joining it with a semicolon. Both are correct. These were the kinds of things I talked to students about as a writing tutor and comp teacher and to clients about as an editor. 

Edited December 7 by Zella

[Absolom]

Thankfully the grandchildren are surrounded by people who correct their spoken and written language.  Unfortunately they spend several hours a day with people who do not have that advantage.  Thus I have to translate I yeeted it.  I now allow yeet as I know by next year it will be gone and if I make an issue of it, she'll just get stubborn about it.

[shapeshifter]

I was reading a thorough and clear account of some complicated current events in The New York Times early this morning, thinking this article would be a great source for college students to cite now and, perhaps more importantly, in the future. But then I came to “president-elects” instead of “presidents-elect,” and I was disappointed. This goes beyond my personal irritation with incorrect grammar and spelling. I am afraid it could cast doubt on the veracity of the reporting. 

There is one prominent source that adds an S to elect, which Google is filtering to the top of its search for plural of president-elect:
https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/president–elect
But even the AI Google is using shows "presidents-elect" as the correct spelling.

Thoughts? 
The author has an email listed, but I want to be sure.

Edited December 7 by shapeshifter
typo

[StatisticalOutlier]

Great news!  A seller on Ebay accepted my offer of $10 (+$4.95 shipping) for a copy of El Frijolito Saltón!  I'm finally going to read that bad boy.

And speaking of bad boys, I found stuff about Javier on the internet and he died last year, after what appears to be a life of passing bad checks, menacing people while incarcerated, and failing to show up for court dates.  I hope he knew how bad I felt that I got the Spanish award over him. 

Cuthberto also died in the past couple of years, but he appears to have had a more socially acceptable life.

'Cause I know y'all were really hoping for an update.  😀

[Milburn Stone]

On 12/7/2024 at 10:05 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can believe that because I learned more about grammar when I was in a French class than what was taught in English reading and literature.

Two years of high school Latin taught me more about the logic of grammar than any English course. I don't care that it's a "dead" language!

[Ancaster]

On 12/6/2024 at 5:55 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

I was listening to an interview on Science Friday (I think) on NPR, of (with?) a guy who studies the human microbiome, and was so distracted by his grammar.  "Me and my wife share x% of our microbiome."  "The micobiome of me and my friends..."  I guess it's okay because I understood what he was saying?

This seems to be more prevalent among younger people these days, although I remember about 30 years ago, a guy I know was applying to a Psy.D program and he had to write a personal essay.  His opening sentence began, "Me and my sister were raised..."  And they accepted him.  Good thing I wasn't on the admissions committee; I'm sure it doesn't affect whether he's an effective therapist, but I just can't help judging people, especially in a professional setting.

Then again, I was just reading a story about a local Thai restaurant, and the owner said that someone in the neighborhood contacted her and offered to correct misspellings and other manglings of English on her menu, and she took her up on it.  I wanted to kiss both of them.

 

I was a teacher's (teachers'?) aide to the English dept of a large US high school when I first moved to the States many moons ago.  I was horrified by the teachers' written work - spelling mistakes (including in spelling lists the students had to study for tests), grammatical errors galore, poorly cast sentences like the one with the 7-year-old grandmother discussed above.

It reminded me of a favourite English teacher when I was 15 or 16 (in England) who spent a sabbatical teaching at one of the the University of CA campuses.  She told us our written work was better than that of the upper level college students she taught.

[Ancaster]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:27 AM, fairffaxx said:

The traffic reporter on a San Francisco radio station told us yesterday morning that crews were "efforting" to clear lanes after an accident on the freeway.  Verbification lives!

I loathe the current Chase Bank ads that are trying to convince us that "cashback" is a verb.

On 12/5/2024 at 4:24 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

Copy editor is a job title in publishing.  Copy edit is the verb.  One important element of the job is to correct grammar and punctuation errors.  I had that job for many years. 

I was also a copy editor in the States for several years - I'm not questioning you but in our publishing house no-one ever used the verb to copy edit.  Maybe a regional thing again - I'm on the West Coast and I believe you're on the East Coast.

On 12/5/2024 at 7:53 AM, StatisticalOutlier said:

I've always called myself a holistic grammarian, because I don't know any of the rules or parts of speech and couldn't diagram a sentence if my life depended on it, but somehow what sounds right to me pretty much always comports with the rules. 

I was never taught them either.  I put it down to copious reading of classics when I was young.

On 12/7/2024 at 9:43 AM, shapeshifter said:

But then I came to “president-elects” instead of “presidents-elect,” and I was disappointed.

Thoughts? 
The author has an email listed, but I want to be sure.

I'm absolutely with you that it's presidents-elect.

Edited December 14 by Ancaster

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, Ancaster said:

She told us our written work was better than that of the upper level college students she taught.

My friend got an MBA about ten years ago, and they had to upload much of their work for everyone in the class to see and discuss.  She was consistently horrified by the spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors from people who'd received a college degree, and even more horrified that the professors largely did not care.  You're going to hand someone a Master's degree in Business Administration even though they cannot communicate in a way that makes them seem professional? 

Edited December 11 by Bastet

[Ancaster]

At my kids' middle and high schools the students had to review each other's papers in various subjects, including the sciences.  This was ridiculous to me because I'm sure there were loads of mistakes that their peers didn't recognize, whether factual or grammatical.  Not to mention you know some of them wouldn't even bother to read the papers.

I don't know if this is a trend at many schools, but I thought it was terrible.  And I know that most teachers are over-worked and underpaid, but my kids were lucky enough to get transferred to a very wealthy school district, where the classes were around 15 - 20 students, and the teachers were well-paid.

Edited December 14 by Ancaster

[Annber03]

I remember us having to do those peer review things in school, too. .I always hated doing them, for that very reason. I'd give someone back their paper and there would be red marks and the kid would look horrified and then I'd feel bad. Or people would grade something thinking it was an error when it wasn't, or things of that sort. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

12 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I was never taught them either.  I put it down to copious reading of classics when I was young.

I got lost in the shuffle of our big family, and nobody ever read to me.  I learned to read in the first grade.  We had some Dr. Seuss books, but no other children's books that I recall.

The first real book I remember reading on my own was either In Cold Blood or Catcher in the Rye, probably when I was in about the sixth or seventh grade.  Eek.

Grammar just comes very naturally to me, which should make me more sympathetic to the opposite people--those who just can't get it. 

But it doesn't.  😀

 

[Milburn Stone]

20 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I put it down to copious reading of classics when I was young.

Reading for sure makes you a better writer and reading great literature makes you better than that.

[annzeepark914]

On Monday, while at physical therapy, I had to listen to lots of "modern Xmas music". One upbeat song caught my ear (😉). I have no idea what the title was but the refrain was "...Christmas for you and I". 

[tearknee]

That's why it's been left up to I and I and I ;)

[Dimity]

[Quof]

7 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

I have no idea what the title was but the refrain was "...Christmas for you and I". 

Sadly, there are probably many songs with that refrain.

[Ancaster]

Please, it's "could have" not "could of".

Just in case I need to give an example:

"It could of tasted better," is wrong.  "It could have tasted better," is correct.

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Ancaster said:

Please, it's "could have" not "could of".

Just in case I need to give an example:

"It could of tasted better," is wrong.  "It could have tasted better," is correct.

 I haven’t seen that one in a while.

I prefer the contraction could’ve.
Hmmm…
Apparently my phone’s predictive text does too. 
Maybe that’s why there are fewer instances of that irritating “could have”?

Edited December 15 by shapeshifter

[annzeepark914]

A teeth-grinder for me is seeing the word trouper spelled "trooper".  

[Ancaster]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 I haven’t seen that one in a while.

I prefer the contraction could’ve.
Hmmm…
Apparently my phone’s predictive text does too. 
Maybe that’s why there are fewer instances of that irritating “could have”?

Why is my post misquoted?

"It could have tasted better," is wrong.  "It could have tasted better," is correct.

That is not what I posted.

[isalicat]

7 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

A teeth-grinder for me is seeing the word trouper spelled "trooper".  

Mine is the confusion of "canon" with "cannon", which as a chorale singer drives me completely crazy.

[shapeshifter]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:13 AM, Dimity said:

Just in case I'm not the only one curious about the original image:
https://diaboliquemagazine.com/crash-and-fall-the-perilous-art-of-walter-molino/#:~:text=“Lezione a un teppista” (“Lesson to a hooligan”)
It is “Lezione a un teppista” (“Lesson to a hooligan”) by Italian artist and illustrator, Walter Molino (1915-1997):

Although he is known more for depicting damsels in distress, see also:

and just one more, convincing me he was something like a feminist:

And now back to our regularly scheduled Grammar discussion.…

Edited December 15 by shapeshifter

[Milburn Stone]

Just to belabor the obvious, in speech, "could of" and the correct "could've" are impossible to tell apart, so no mistake is being made. It's when "could of" finds its way into writing that we go mad.

(Spellcheck keeps changing my "could of" into "could have.")

[tearknee]

21 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

A teeth-grinder for me is seeing the word trouper spelled "trooper".  

Most people don't use the word troupe (as in a circus) anymore. Hence, they don't know how to spell it.

 

Likewise, how many people mis-spell linchpin because most people don't fix their own cars in our year?

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Just to belabor the obvious, in speech, "could of" and the correct "could've" are impossible to tell apart, so no mistake is being made. It's when "could of" finds its way into writing that we go mad.

It drives me crazy because there are some common mistakes I understand as rooted in the word/term being something many people only hear spoken rather than also seeing it written.  Who the hell hasn't come across "should've" and "could've" in writing often enough to know it isn't "should of" and "could of"?

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

It drives me crazy because there are some common mistakes I understand as rooted in the word/term being something many people only hear spoken rather than also seeing it written.  Who the hell hasn't come across "should've" and "could've" in writing often enough to know it isn't "should of" and "could of"?

I've always reacted similarly, but now considering:

9 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Just to belabor the obvious, in speech, "could of" and the correct "could've" are impossible to tell apart, so no mistake is being made. It's when "could of" finds its way into writing that we go mad.

I suppose someone might type "I could of been a contender" and assume it is an accepted, tough guy vernacular, or some Shakespearean or other throwback, similar to "ax" being used for "ask" harkening back to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (“Yow loveres axe I now this questioun”) and the Coverdale Bible ("Axe and it shall be given").

 

[Absolom]

I don't say them the same and have never had any confusion except why people couldn't get it wasn't of.