S01.E04: War and the Turquoise Tide

[circumvent]

In the wake of the attack, Cara and the Duttons carefully plan their next move. Spencer and Alexandra enjoy the pleasures of Zanzibar, unaware of what has happened back home. Banner Creighton seeks a powerful ally

Air date: 01/08/23

Edited January 8, 2023 by circumvent

[circumvent]

For the first time I actually liked some of the plots in the show, and even caught accurate information. The residential school stuff seemed very believable to me, the torture and abuses. Happy the nun got to see Teona's face before expiring. The nun's pointing out that Teona would be turned into a dog and be extinct, like the wolves was accurate. I think the last wolf in Yellowstone was killed in 1923, and there were no wolves there until mid 70's, I believe. Maybe even later than that. Someone decided to use real information, yay!

Helen Mirren is very convincing as the matriarch who can be caring about a selected few, and ruthless about the rest. Great acting, unsurprisingly. 

The Africa stuff was just boring, the objectification of woman continues. I hope some day those (mostly) young actresses will say no to gratuitous nude scenes when the women undress for sex, the men keep their pants on. The directors are confusing sensuality with sexuality and nudity. Someone needs to explain it to them. 

I am wondering if the choice of words for the "police force" Cara was proposing was intentional of if the term wasn't very much in use at the time because what she proposed was a militia, not an enforcement mechanism of the law, since the powerful in the area created some pretty skewed laws, and didn't respect others. 

[Thalia]

Thank goodness Jacob survived.  The three best reasons to watch this show:  1) any scene with Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren; 2) any scene with Helen Mirren, period.  3) Spencer's pretty blue eyes.  

Even more so than Yellowstone, I feel like the slow pacing really hurts this show.  While this can be a blessing as I know the dialogue can be trite, but conversation is sometime needed and instead we're getting pretty people looking at prettier scenery.  The two best scenes in this episode, IMHO, were the bedroom conversation between Jacob and Cara (see 1, above) and the letter reading scene.  In the latter I learned more about John and Emma than I had in the prior three episodes combined.  Plus we got a little more info about Spencer and his war record. 

Examples of things that might have been interesting to see:  What do the men really think of Cara's leadership?  (she's probably lucky that she's Edith Galt Wilson to Jacob's Woodrow); a talk between Cara and Emma; a discussion between Jack and Elizabeth and their altered future.  

Thank goodness that they showed Spencer finding out what was happening on the Yellowstone.  I was fearful that we were going to suffer through at least one more episode with Spencer and Alex frolicking on the African savannah.   

Jacob Lives!

 

[LoveLeigh]

13 hours ago, circumvent said:

The Africa stuff was just boring, the objectification of woman continues. I hope some day those (mostly) young actresses will say no to gratuitous nude scenes when the women undress for sex, the men keep their pants on. The directors are confusing sensuality with sexuality and nudity. Someone needs to explain it to them. 

 

I find those sex scenes incredible. Julia and Brandon have incredible chemistry. He reminds me of a young Paul Newman. I actually think they are objectifying Spencer. He is driving twitter wild. He drove me to the point of: if not Spencer, why bother? There is something about him, and it is not because he wears no shirt. His demeanor is mesmerizing. Not since Hud/Hustler have I so been drawn to a male presence on the screen. Julia's objectification pales in comparison and it is not she who exudes "sex" in those scenes. She is rather bland. He holds so much inside... he gives an internal life to Spencer that only a great actor could do. I can almost hear him thinking. Idris Elba does the same thing. The move was not great but he did the same thing in The Mountain Between Us. Few others can do that.

Edited January 9, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[circumvent]

The scenes must be great, they are beautiful, the setting is incredible but this is cinematography. It was too long for what it was, the message was delivered in the first couple of seconds, so it became boring. It objectified the woman, she was the prize for the hero. He was not objectified, objects are things that are used to achieve a goal, in this case something the production believes is sensual. So they undress the female. Sensuality doesn't need nudity. I mean, the scene in From Here to Eternity cause a big scandal at the time of the movie release and the actors were just rolling, not naked, on the beach. The overuse of naked female/dressed male equals sexism. There is a full documentary about this, and some actors are better at drawing their contracts. I hope the trend grows. I don't find it sensual, or sexy, when only one out of two actors gets naked, while the other if fully dressed in a scene that is supposed to be about love, sex, discovery. I would rather no naked gratuitous scenes, but I don't mind them when they are short and useful to the plot. The inequality is visible and it shows the sexism on the part of the production. If people are going wild about the guy, I suggest that a petition be made to request that every love scene he is in must show AT LEAST his butt crack. It is a beginning!

[LoveLeigh]

6 hours ago, circumvent said:

If people are going wild about the guy, I suggest that a petition be made to request that every love scene he is in must show AT LEAST his butt crack. It is a beginning!

If I saw his butt crack I would be turned off; if I saw his penis I would not bat an eyelash. What makes Spencer so appealing is his demeanor. I don't need to see nakedness to infuse sexuality into the dynamic. Spencer just has "a way." Showing Alex naked does not make her sexy... I think she alone has very little sex appeal. She is bland totally naked. it is her chemistry with Spencer that is the allure... and they have that fully clothed. Nakedness for me is meaningless if the naked actor doesn't have that internal spark. Spencer exudes more sexuality when he just talks than he does with his shirt open. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[Affogato]

The pacing has been slow so far, but with a three month time jump (between the events we see at the ranch and Spencer reading the letter) I imagine that a lot will have happened, including the cattle council dealings and the creation of the sheep guy's army.

After this episode I am less hopeful that Jacob has survived. I did read a review that pointed out that Cara was given power and then Jacob tells her exactly what to do, but that is when we see Jacob's strength as a strategist, as a general in this war. If, probably when, he dies we need to know what they have lost. I imagine she will blossom into this role, but at this time holds out hope that Spencer will be the military strategist the family needs to replace Jacob.

Frankly, I don't think so. I think this is Helen Mirrin's show, and I bet Alex turns out to be pretty useful, as well. The way she tried to get Spencer to face his demons, for example, was subtle and skilled. Initially she seemed like an airhead, but now it seems she is looking for something larger than herself, which means the ranch can exert a pull on her, keeping her in its orbit.

I get the frolicsome Eden type scenes, which is a contrast to what we've seen and a contrast to what they will walk into...the couple needs this, or why would Alex follow Spencer to Montana, much less follow behind him, pushing? I am beginning to like Alex, I still haven't warmed up to Spencer. I doubt he is the answer to Cara's dreams.

I wonder if the school girl is going to end up at the ranch, war paint and bounty on her head, and all, and what part she will play. Will she go to her grandmother first? 

I assume the Dutton's 'army', one way or the other, will come from the 'res'. It looks like Jacob has cultivated them to some extent, over the years.

[Paws]

The actors and cinematography are saving this show from being utter crap. “Oh a ravaging! Ravage me! Ravageeeeeeee” like they only know one word synonymous w fuck.   The abuse scenes at the school are too much and I’m glad they seem to be over now.

Helen Mirren is owning this show 100% and her scene at the meeting (and just after) was great. Also good to see Timothy Dalton, that’s making things interesting.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, LoveLeigh said:

If I saw his butt crack I would be turned off; if I saw his penis I would not bat an eyelash. What makes Spencer so appealing is his demeanor. I don't need to see nakedness to infuse sexuality into the dynamic. Spencer just has "a way." Showing Alex naked does not make her sexy... I think she alone has very little sex appeal. She is bland totally naked. it is her chemistry with Spencer that is the allure... and they have that fully clothed. Nakedness for me is meaningless if the naked actor doesn't have that internal spark. Spencer exudes more sexuality when he just talks than he does with his shirt open. 

My comment was meant to be read with snark. I don't need naked people for no reason either - or for no reason that influences the story - but apparently people are going wild about him. I don't see sexuality on him either and the character has not yet blossomed. to me, he is blah. He is supposed to have "shell shock" - or PTSD - from the war, I don't see that. It would be interestng to see him deal with that. As for the actress, she is attractive to the mainstream Hollywood: skinny, white, young. No flaps of flops, body parts still defying gravity. Not appealing to me either.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I wonder if the school girl is going to end up at the ranch, war paint and bounty on her head, and all, and what part she will play. Will she go to her grandmother first? 

I think she will be rescued by some of her own people, or another tribe in the area, and I think it will be revealed she is an ancestor of the character in Yellowstone.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I assume the Dutton's 'army', one way or the other, will come from the 'res'. It looks like Jacob has cultivated them to some extent, over the years.

I really hope not. It would be probably accurate, historically, but I don't trust the writers to do this in a sensible or really accurate way. I am pretty sure they would take the fact that this could have happened - maybe it did - then use the natives as props, passive and compliant "friends". I already feel queasy, just thinking about the may ways they can botch the idea

[SunnyBeBe]

I think Spencer is attractive, but he’s not that personable, imo.  I get what Alex sees in him.  Handsome, edgy, a little dangerous….ok.  I get it. 

 Did anyone else think Alex was going to get chomped on by a shark as she frolicked in the water? Lol.  And then my mind wondered again as to whether they had sunscreen back then, because people with fair skin and light eyes are prone to skin cancer……good grief….I shouldn’t be thinking things like that.  Lol  I have noticed and wondered why all the actresses that show breast in tv and movies are very small.  

I liked this episode okay, except I can’t watch the school girl scenes.  It’s too cruel and I can’t bear it.  
 

Based on where it’s going….I’m not sure this series is for me.  I powered through 1883, but I’m not inclined to do it this time, though I adore Mirren and Harrison.  Seeing them suffer so….not for me.  I will check out Yellowstone and see if that appeals to me.  Maybe, I’ll return to this in Feb.  
 

 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think Spencer is attractive, but he’s not that personable, imo.  I get what Alex sees in him.  Handsome, edgy, a little dangerous….ok.  I get it. 

 Did anyone else think Alex was going to get chomped on by a shark as she frolicked in the water? Lol.  And then my mind wondered again as to whether they had sunscreen back then, because people with fair skin and light eyes are prone to skin cancer……good grief….I shouldn’t be thinking things like that.  Lol  I have noticed and wondered why all the actresses that show breast in tv and movies are very small.  

I liked this episode okay, except I can’t watch the school girl scenes.  It’s too cruel and I can’t bear it.  
 

Based on where it’s going….I’m not sure this series is for me.  I powered through 1883, but I’m not inclined to do it this time, though I adore Mirren and Harrison.  Seeing them suffer so….not for me.  I will check out Yellowstone and see if that appeals to me.  Maybe, I’ll return to this in Feb.  
 

 

Yes. Everytime she was frolicking in the water I kept on thinking shark, barracuda, poisonous sea snake....and sunblock. Of course the danger of sunburn has increased in modern times.

[blackwing]

Wait, they aired four episodes, and now we have to wait an entire month, until February 5, for the next four?  Why the break?  Surely the Superbowl doesn't figure into this.  This show is streaming so people can watch whenever they want.  Did the same thing happen with "1883"?  Not sure why streaming shows have these breaks, it just kills the momentum of the show.  Just when they are finally connecting Spencer's story with the rest of his family, the show just comes to a halt for a month.

Agree with the above comments that the pacing is too slow.  Last episode, there was the brutal attack by Banner Creighton on the Duttons, which resulted in the death of John and the incapacitation of Jake.  This episode... what really happened?  Pretty much nothing.  Helen Mirren went to the meeting of the livestock commission in place of Jake.  She kicked some ass and established some kind of police/militia ostensibly to protect everyone's cattle, but she made it clear in no uncertain terms to Creighton that she knows what he did and that she was declaring war.

That's about the only significant plot development.  Oh, Teonna killed the cruel nun and ran away.  I hope we don't have to see this school or maid training camp or whatever it is again.  The ruler and the whippings and the beatings are just a bit too much.

Alex and Spencer frolicked in Africa and then received the letter urging him to come home. 

And another interchangeable identical-looking blonde, who apparently is the mother of Jack's fiance Elizabeth, came to claim the body of her dead husband, who apparently worked for the Duttons and died in the attack, and demand that Elizabeth go home with her back East.  I actually thought this woman was Emma (John's wife and Jack's mom), I don't understand how Sheridan would have expected viewers to be able to identify this was a different woman, since we have barely seen Emma.

I don't think anything was said about Elizabeth's wounds, she got shot in the stomach and somehow was saved?

1 hour ago, Paws said:

Helen Mirren is owning this show 100% and her scene at the meeting (and just after) was great. Also good to see Timothy Dalton, that’s making things interesting.

Helen Mirren is fantastic here.  She makes magic out of everything she touches, and she is elevating the performance of everyone around her, including Harrison Ford, who I have always considered to be a fairly wooden actor.  Taylor Sheridan really hit the jackpot when he got her for this show.  I know people who haven't watched any of his shows and yet they are tuning in to "1923" solely because of Dame Helen.  

When Alexandra started reading the first letter and her reading of the words shifted to a voiceover by Mirren, I was thinking that even her voiceover acting is incredible.  When she was talking about Spencer's smile, "it is my sunrise, and I miss it with all my heart", I was thinking, now THIS is how you do a voiceover.  She makes Ghost Elsa / Isabel May look like she should give up on acting right now, because Isabel May will never in her wildest dreams achieve the same sort of gravitas in a voiceover that Mirren did in just that line.

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

After this episode I am less hopeful that Jacob has survived. I did read a review that pointed out that Cara was given power and then Jacob tells her exactly what to do, but that is when we see Jacob's strength as a strategist, as a general in this war. If, probably when, he dies we need to know what they have lost. I imagine she will blossom into this role, but at this time holds out hope that Spencer will be the military strategist the family needs to replace Jacob.

Spoilered just in case...

Spoiler

I'm not sure if everyone gets the same commercials on Paramount Plus as everyone else, but at least for me the commercial right before the final scene with Alex and Spencer reading Cara's "come home" letter was a preview of the upcoming episodes.  In these episodes, Jacob is very much alive and seems back to full health.

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

I think she will be rescued by some of her own people, or another tribe in the area, and I think it will be revealed she is an ancestor of the character in Yellowstone.

They sure are taking their time getting there.  I too assume she's either the ancestor of Thomas Rainwater or Monica Long.  I would have thought that she is probably Rainwater's ancestor, but this season on "Yellowstone", Sheridan finally seems to have gotten the memo that pretty much everybody hates Monica.  The Monica of this season seems a lot more likeable, and if Sheridan has changed his opinion about her, he could be making Teonna into Monica's ancestor and showing us where Monica gets her fighting spirit.  Or some crap like that.  

Edited January 9, 2023 by blackwing

[Affogato]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I don't think anything was said about Elizabeth's wounds, she got shot in the stomach and somehow was saved?

......................................

Spoilered just in case...

  Hide contents

I'm not sure if everyone gets the same commercials on Paramount Plus as everyone else, but at least for me the commercial right before the final scene with Alex and Spencer reading Cara's "come home" letter was a preview of the upcoming episodes.  In these episodes, Jacob is very much alive and seems back to full health.

They sure are taking their time getting there.  I too assume she's either the ancestor of Thomas Rainwater or Monica Long.  I would have thought that she is probably Rainwater's ancestor, but this season on "Yellowstone", Sheridan finally seems to have gotten the memo that pretty much everybody hates Monica.  The Monica of this season seems a lot more likeable, and if Sheridan has changed his opinion about her, he could be making Teonna into Monica's ancestor and showing us where Monica gets her fighting spirit.  Or some crap like that.  

Penicillin and most of the articles I can find on the treatment of abdominal gunshot wounds seem to hail from the 1940s, but what with world war 1, the civil war, and the general obstreperousness of the local population, there must be a lot of experience treating gunshot wounds. I have a vague memory that the wound wasn't directly through the belly and there could be plausible deniability of it nicking the peritoneum or intestine. Last we saw of her, though, she had a troubling fever, which is not a good sign.

My Paramount subscription doesn't come with commercials (I'm mostly here for Star Trek)  and it is odd, but I don't see a trailer for the next episodes. So I have no idea of what the future holds.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, I saw the trailer too.  Which is the main reason I’m out.  
 

So, the young fiancé is madly in love with the young man and his way of life…..ok.  I’m just having trouble seeing her sign up for this.  After what’s she’s been through…I’d be on my way back East for sure.   I guess this country was built on those with a more adventurous spirit.  Lol

[LoveLeigh]

48 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, the young fiancé is madly in love with the young man and his way of life…..ok.  I’m just having trouble seeing her sign up for this.  After what’s she’s been through…I’d be on my way back East for sure.   I guess this country was built on those with a more adventurous spirit.  Lol

Well, it is fiction so the writers keep Alex with Spencer to move the story forward. I don't think they craft the story with decisions about what even makes sense in terms of what a real person would do. 

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

My comment was meant to be read with snark. I don't need naked people for no reason either - or for no reason that influences the story - but apparently people are going wild about him. I don't see sexuality on him either and the character has not yet blossomed. to me, he is blah. He is supposed to have "shell shock" - or PTSD - from the war, I don't see that. It would be interestng to see him deal with that. As for the actress, she is attractive to the mainstream Hollywood: skinny, white, young. No flaps of flops, body parts still defying gravity. Not appealing to me either.

I am one of those who find Spencer a man about whom to go wild.... as I said, it is his demeanor as well as his looks. As far as Alex, she is pretty and looks like thousands of other girls. I think they cast Julia because she has that generic look. I don't think it matters who we personally find appealing. Their chemistry works. If it was up to me in terms of appeal I would cast Monica Bellucci, but Alex had to be skinny, white, and young I suppose. I don't think Spencer would have opened that car door for me: big and old. 

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, the young fiancé is madly in love with the young man and his way of life…..ok.  I’m just having trouble seeing her sign up for this.  After what’s she’s been through…I’d be on my way back East for sure.   I guess this country was built on those with a more adventurous spirit.  Lol

9 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

Well, it is fiction so the writers keep Alex with Spencer to move the story forward. I don't think they craft the story with decisions about what even makes sense in terms of what a real person would do.

I'm pretty sure that Sunny is talking about why Elizabeth is staying with Jack (not Alex and Spencer).  Her dad was killed, she got shot and almost died.  Her mom came to collect her and take her home back East.  Elizabeth refused, so she must really want to be with Jack.

The writing for her is poor, we know absolutely nothing about her.  It wasn't until this episode that I was aware that her dad worked for Jake and that he was one of the ones who were killed.  So what exactly is this family's story?  They apparently came from back East.  Why were they in Montana?  How long have they been there?  Did they just happen to be in Montana and Dad got a job with Jake at some point in the past?  Or were they recent migrants to Montana and Dad needed a job and fell in with Jake?

The way the mom talked, she makes it sound like the whole "living in Montana" thing was some kind of experiment.  They recently moved from back East to Montana because Dad wanted to work on a ranch.  And now that the experiment is failed, Mom is taking Elizabeth home.  That doesn't make any sense, why would they uproot from the comfortable East to travel all the way across the country just so Dad can be a rancher?

It makes more sense to me that they have been living in Montana for some time.  Enough time for Elizabeth to meet Jack and get engaged to him.  But now that Dad is dead, Mom imperiously commands Elizabeth to go home with her?  She knows that Elizabeth and Jack are engaged, what did she expect Elizabeth to say?

Maybe I am overanalyzing this all, but I think this is just yet another example of bad writing on a Taylor Sheridan show.  Why even bother to show these scenes of the Mom and Elizabeth?  As I mentioned, we know nothing about them, so why were we supposed to care if Mom wanted Elizabeth to leave?  Why even bother to introduce the character of Mom only to have her leave right away?

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, I was referring to Elizabeth and Jack.  I was somewhat in awe that she insisted on marrying him after Mirren gave her the long list of priorities for the wife of a rancher.  And that was before the shooting deaths and injuries.  

[mojoween]

7 hours ago, Paws said:

The actors and cinematography are saving this show from being utter crap. “Oh a ravaging! Ravage me! Ravageeeeeeee” like they only know one word synonymous w fuck.  

Taylor really is shit at writing for sexytimes.

Hopefully the next six months pass quickly so we don’t have to split more time between Spencer in Africa and Cara in Montana.

[Moviesnob]

I'm soooooooooooooooooo irritated with this month-long break. Mayor of Kingstown starts on Jan 15, so I'm guessing we'll get 4 episodes of that, finish up 1923, and then finish up MoK. I enjoy both of these shows, so if I have to wait for each episode, at least GIVE THEM TO ME ALL IN A ROW. Or just let them both come out on the same day! There are no time slots! It's all streaming!

I'm guessing they're doing it this way due to the streaming revenue, so people don't cancel while waiting for 1923 to come back, but grrrrrrrrr. This last episode was the best yet, I loved finding out more about the Dutton's through Cara's letters.

[Thumper]

I too get confused about all the blonde women in this show, although I can differentiate between Elizabeth and Alex.

The actor playing Spencer is very handsome.  I liked Spencer better before he hooked up with Alex though — he had a bit more of an Indiana Jones swagger.  Now he is all Tortured Soul.

Yes, I thought Alex in the ocean would be the next Damsel in Distress scene with a shark attack.  lol

Can someone tell me how Spencer and John (who is Jake Dutton’s brother, I think?) are related?

Helen Mirren is awesome and I enjoy the scenery.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Thumper
I thought the young girl’s name was Emma, not Elizabeth! Obviously still confused🤪

[Paws]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

Helen Mirren is fantastic here.  She makes magic out of everything she touches, and she is elevating the performance of everyone around her, including Harrison Ford, who I have always considered to be a fairly wooden actor.  Taylor Sheridan really hit the jackpot when he got her for this show.  I know people who haven't watched any of his shows and yet they are tuning in to "1923" solely because of Dame Helen.  

That’s me, I signed up because of her and Harrison Ford, I figured neither of them would do anything totally shitty. This show has huge drawbacks but I’m still in it because of them. With 4 weeks to fill do I watch 1883 or Yellowstone or what? And are they better/worse than this?
 

1 hour ago

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

too get confused about all the blonde women in this show, although I can differentiate between Emma and Alex.

The actor playing Spencer is very handsome.  I liked Spencer better before he hooked up with Alex though — he had a bit more of an Indiana Jones swagger.  Now he is all Tortured Soul.

Yes, I thought Alex in the ocean would be the next Damsel in Distress scene with a shark attack.  lol

Can someone tell me how Spencer and John (who is Jake Dutton’s brother, I think?) are related?

I am a blonde white woman and while i can tell these ladies apart, I dont know how anyone else does. They all look so similar! 
 

Spencer and John (who died) are brothers. The young guy Jack is John’s Son.  Jacob (Harrison Ford) is their uncle. His brother was their father (Tim McGraw from 1883 from what I understand, but I haven’t seen that show )

[pfk505]

1 hour ago, Paws said:

With 4 weeks to fill do I watch 1883 or Yellowstone or what? And are they better/worse than this?

1883. It's an excellent show (though not without its flaws), easily the best of Sheridan's TV work. Yellowstone started out solid but has devolved into a pandering, plotless dumpster fire over the last few seasons.

[bunnyblue]

Yay, Jacob survived! I was sure he would die because I just couldn't see Harrison Ford committing to a full season of a tv show. I'm glad I was wrong. 

I'm so annoyed that we barely got to know John, and now he's dead. He was the one character that connected 1883 and 1923 and his death garnered zero reaction except from Emma. It was bittersweet watching Emma dig his grave next to his 3 original family members who made the trek from Texas to Montana 40 years before. As awesome as Cara is, I was annoyed on Emma's behalf when she told Elizabeth's mother that she (Cara) would discipline Jack. I get the feeling that Jacob & Cara have such strong personalities that John and Emma never had much say on the Ranch. I suspect that once Cara dies, the matriarchal role will bypass Emma and go to Elizabeth or Alex. 

I'm not as swoony over Spencer & Alex as most seem to be, but I absolutely loved their final scene and I liked the way she got him to read all the letters Cara wrote to him. I also liked that Alex got to know the Dutton family through the letters, so much so that she was moved to tears reading the last letter. I was pleasantly surprised that Spencer cried when he learned his family has been attacked; he's been so broody and stoic, I expected we'd get more of the same from him in that scene. 

Cara is so sure that only Spencer can save the family that I think she underestimates Jack (her line to Bronn comes to mind) and may be surprised when he takes an active role in the running of the ranch now that John is dead and Jacob is bedridden. I don't think the ranch is big enough for 2 fiery couples (Spencer/Alex, Jack/Elizabeth) and something is bound to happen in order for one couple to take the reins from Jacob & Cara. 

I hate Bronn (sorry, he'll always be Bronn to me), but after the way Timothy Dalton threatened his family, I think he might be having second thoughts about getting in bed with him. Bury his children in the skin of their mother? Jesus, take it down a notch, you psycho. 

I know the abuse endured by Teonna at the Indian School is too much for some viewers, but I'm glad Sheridan is shining a light on this horrible piece of history. It wasn't until college that I learned about these inhumane institutions and I'm glad it's been getting some media attention in both the US and Canada these last few years. Thankfully, the nun did not break Teonna's spirit and Teonna got her revenge and is hopefully now free of the school, but I fear her friend will suffer for Teonna's actions.

Now we're doing mid-season breaks for 8 episode seasons?? This is absurd.

[Haleth]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:46 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Did anyone else think Alex was going to get chomped on by a shark as she frolicked in the water? Lol.  And then my mind wondered again as to whether they had sunscreen back then, because people with fair skin and light eyes are prone to skin cancer……good grief….I shouldn’t be thinking things like that.  Lol  I have noticed and wondered why all the actresses that show breast in tv and movies are very small.  

Yes!  I was waiting for something to bite her in the ocean.  And I kept thinking she was going to be awfully sunburned.  As for her shape?  Classic body type for a '20s flapper.

On 1/9/2023 at 2:25 PM, blackwing said:

Why the break? 

Because it's a long and tedious trip from Zanzibar to Montana?  (Kidding)

On 1/9/2023 at 2:25 PM, blackwing said:

I don't think anything was said about Elizabeth's wounds, she got shot in the stomach and somehow was saved?

I'm guessing she was shot in the lady parts and will not be able to have children, further complicating the family tree.

On 1/9/2023 at 11:26 PM, Thumper said:

Can someone tell me how Spencer and John (who is Jake Dutton’s brother, I think?) are related?

Spencer and dead John were the sons of 1883 James and Margaret (Tim and Faith).  Spencer was born in Montana after Elsa died.

On 1/10/2023 at 1:51 AM, pfk505 said:

1883. It's an excellent show (though not without its flaws), easily the best of Sheridan's TV work. Yellowstone started out solid but has devolved into a pandering, plotless dumpster fire over the last few seasons.

I completely agree!  I didn't bother finishing last season of Yellowstone because it was so bad.  Every character is horrible.  But I'm really enjoying 1923.  Helen Mirren is a goddess and the similar plot of the family trying to keep the land is more interesting with this generation.

Huh.  I thought to myself that the mining guy looked like Timothy Dalton.  It never occurred to me that it was Timothy Dalton.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Haleth

[CountryGirl]

I enjoyed 1883, mainly because of Sam Elliot, but I am loving 1923 so much more.

Helen Mirren is just fantastic and I love that her fiery Cara is at the center of this show.

The last few episodes have had me on the edge of my seat and yes, I, too, was thinking Alex was going to get chomped while she was playing in the wives. Is her romance with Spencer a bit schmaltzy at times? Yes, but that's one of the reasons why I liked it and admittedly, I liked Elsa (whose ghost voiceover can go away any time now) and Sam as well for the romance novel aspect of it all. Plus, the Spencer and Sam actors are very easy on the eyes. But they really sold me in the letter reading scenes, particularly the most recent one where Cara pleads for him to come home. 

I'm glad that Harrison's Jacob survived even if I suspect he isn't long for the world.

On a side note, was that Viking's Siggy that I saw as Elizabeth's mom? Yes, yes, it is Jessalyn Gilsig. 

Did I mention Helen Mirren? 😉

[Haleth]

12 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

On a side note, was that Viking's Siggy that I saw as Elizabeth's mom? Yes, yes, it is Jessalyn Gilsig

Was it?  I didn’t recognize her. Poor Siggy. 

[rhygirl720]

Loved the letter reading scene, So well done.

Helen is giving a masterclass here. Every facial expression, every tone and nuance perfection.

I can't wait for the first meeting between Spencer and Bronn.

[blackwing]

Did Jake take any responsibility for the attacks?  Either he did, he didn't, I missed it, or I can't remember.  All of this was set in motion because he left Creighton alive.  He should have either 1) let the law operate and turn those six men over to the sheriff, or 2) made sure to kill them all.  What was the point of putting the six men on horses under the noose?  I think he was basically saying, "hey, if they somehow survive the night, then they deserve to live".  As if that would take the responsibility of killing them out of his hands.  "I didn't kill them, the horses did."  Why?  Once he made the decision to kill them, why leave anything open to chance?

Now this one guy survived and has declared war.  As a result, Jake got his nephew killed and his grandnephew's fiance is unlikely to be able to have children.  Who will be left to carry on the Dutton legacy after Jack?  Obviously since we viewers know about the current Duttons on "Yellowstone", someone does.  But from Jake's perspective in 1923, he really should be beating himself up about screwing over the future of the family.  Spencer is pushing 40 and has seemingly never shown any interest in getting married and having children.  But now, Jake is putting him in an unfair position by telling him he has to come home and take over.  A life that he apparently never wanted. 

It really is all Jake's fault.  The current day Duttons are ruthless and decisive, maybe somehow Jake's spirit lives in them, telling them to be forceful and not repeat his mistakes.

 

This episode did confirm that Elsa's grave was next to her parents.  We saw one grave with a distinct "ELS" on it next to one that had the same "Our Mother" or "Our Father" engraving that we saw when Monica and Summer were in the Dutton family plot.  So I guess Elsa never got her wish to be buried at the foot of that tree?

 

[circumvent]

41 minutes ago, blackwing said:

It really is all Jake's fault.  The current day Duttons are ruthless and decisive, maybe somehow Jake's spirit lives in them, telling them to be forceful and not repeat his mistakes.

Agreed. He is so full of himself and thinks that his word is a decree that everyone must accept as true and final. I find all the Duttons awful. Stopped watching Yellowstone because I don't think it is well written, and hate all the characters, so I wasn't even curious to know what happens to any of them. Same for 1883, but that was just a mini series. I don't know the plans for this one, but I already hate every single one of the main characters, - even though Helen Mirren is so great on the part, I still hate the character - or I am bored by them (hello Spencer). I can sympathize with Teonna but not yet invested on her, maybe because her story feels like a side plot, a filler, something that the writers don't really care about. I think it is just there to connect to the Yellowstone Indigenous characters. Maybe the second half of the series will give us more of her story.

[blackwing]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:07 AM, bunnyblue said:

I'm so annoyed that we barely got to know John, and now he's dead. He was the one character that connected 1883 and 1923 and his death garnered zero reaction except from Emma. It was bittersweet watching Emma dig his grave next to his 3 original family members who made the trek from Texas to Montana 40 years before.

I am annoyed as well.  I looking forward to getting reacquainted with James Badge Dale (haven't seen him since about 20 years ago when he was Kim Bauer's boyfriend on "24").  His character in this show had at most two lines before he was killed.  What was the point of even having him on?

I especially don't understand why his own son doesn't seem to care that he is dead.  I know that Jack is concerned about Elizabeth, but how about taking a moment with your mom to grieve for your dad?  Why did Emma have to dig John's grave on her own, before the other ranchhands helped?  Jack at least should have been there.  As always, some pretty poor writing.

I at least wanted him to talk about James, Margaret and Elsa.  Mostly I wanted to learn more about the early days of the Duttons in Montana.  What happened in those 10 years before James died?  A series of extended flashbacks in the first two episodes of this series would have been nice.  This show wanted to film World War One flashbacks but not scenes of the early days?  What did those WWI flashbacks add to the show?  Pretty much nothing, we already knew that Spencer was haunted by the war even without seeing the imagery.

I remember as "1883" was ending that there was all the confusion about how it had been renewed for a second season.  And then Sheridan saying that the story would be continued in "1923".  If he has moved on from "1883" and doesn't want flashback scenes, we at least could have gotten more extensive discussion about how they got there.  Who built the house?  James or Jake?  How did they defend the house?  We saw in the 1893 scene that James had made some kind of friendship/alliance with the Native Americans.  And that friendship seems to have extended to Jake.  I sure would have loved to have understood how it is that the Dutton ranch became the largest in the area.  

Edited January 11, 2023 by blackwing

[circumvent]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:07 AM, bunnyblue said:

Now we're doing mid-season breaks for 8 episode seasons?? This is absurd.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a demand of the Paramount execs. This show is only streaming, right? It is not on any network, I think (I don't have cable, so I am never sure). What they want is for people to stay paying for the subscription, so a big break gives them three months of subscriptions - the show started in December, runs a bit in January, now February. 

There are ways of evading it, as i do, but I think they have the research to do this and cash in.

[CrystalBlue]

ITA.  It's the Paramount+ monkeys ringing the cash register.

[mythoughtis]

I’m still finding it unbelievable that a woman (Margaret) old enough to be a nurse in the Civil War had  a child in approximately 1888. Especially since John was  approximately 13 years younger than Elsa, and Spencer seems about 10 years younger than John.  There wasn’t birth control back then and there was no mention of  any miscarriages, so she didn’t get pregnant easily.  But Sheridan needed another male Dutton to be able to  put Africa into the show.  

I really don’t know why we had to have Elsa narrate this.   Cara, Emma, Elizabeth or asked could have done it.   Elsa died  at 18, knowing nothing of Montana.  Let a rancher’s wife narrate  

Has anyone noticed that the Duttons ( every generation) cause a lot of their problems  with others? Yet, somehow, they get adoration ( not fear)  from their employees? 

 

[CountryGirl]

My paternal great-grandmother had 8 children, the first at age 22 and the last at age 46. So I don’t find it that far-fetched, especially for the times, the age differences between Elsa and Spencer. Even in my immediate family, my oldest sibling is 14 years older than me, the youngest. 

[mythoughtis]

15 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

My paternal great-grandmother had 8 children, the first at age 22 and the last at age 46. So I don’t find it that far-fetched, especially for the times, the age differences between Elsa and Spencer. Even in my immediate family, my oldest sibling is 14 years older than me, the youngest. 

I have large families in my background too.  They are indeed as far as 22 years or more apart, but there are several children.  My point is that Margaret was only pregnant 3 times  in her life.   a woman’s fertility goes down as she gets older and it doesn’t seem as if she got pregnant easily even when she was younger.  So, I find it unlikely, for Margaret in particular,  to have had Spencer when she did.   I’m not extrapolating that to other women.  

[circumvent]

7 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Has anyone noticed that the Duttons ( every generation) cause a lot of their problems  with others? Yet, somehow, they get adoration ( not fear)  from their employees? 

Because at least some of them are sociopaths, the culture is one of sociopathy. They are master manipulators, people tend to adore those. Jacob was at the sheriff's office, and they had the city council meeting, where they pretty much said that they would take the matters of the law in their own hands - their side, of course. They openly proposed,  at got, a militia. Montana is big on militias, maybe that's how they started and Taylor Sheridan is trying to claim the origins to his characters. 

When sociopaths get challenged, they find a way to get rid of the challenger, one way or another. The ones who remain are either too afraid or also have sociopathic tendencies. It is an abusive relationship, always. It would be interesting, to me, to know what goes on in Sheridan's mind because I go from dislike to hate every character he ever wrote (that I remember and that's limited to this Dick Wolf moment with the three recent series)

[RedDelicious]

My paternal great grandmother would be about the same approximate generation as Spencer. She got married at 16 (great grandpop was 18) and had six altogether including a set of identical twins. Her first was born in 1909 and last in 1922 at age 30. I tend to think that was pretty old in those days. Only the boys survived.

[LadyIrony]

I find myself having a lot of sympathy for the nuns. They have been assigned a very tough job far from home and given little, if any support as we saw in the first ep from their "boss" the priest. They certainly aren't trained to deal with the situation they have been thrown into. I thought they were pretty silly to untie the Indian girl when she conceded, it was obvious to me she was just wanting a break rather than offering a genuine surrender. 

I feel like some things are being glossed over for the sake of politics as well as convenience. Cara had perhaps too easy a time at the owners meeting and was readily accepted probably due to her husbands standing. As her husband isn't dead yet it will be interesting to see if he gets back on his feet, he would reappear as a ghost to those who shot him. 

It is running slow and given we know the outcome via Yellowstone (ie the Duttons keep the ranch and power) I wonder if the slow speed is really necessary. Still it will be fun to see Spencer return probably when the sheep herders are beginning their attack on the ranch. 

 

[chediavolo]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:46 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I think Spencer is attractive, but he’s not that personable, imo.  I get what Alex sees in him.  Handsome, edgy, a little dangerous….ok.  I get it. 

 Did anyone else think Alex was going to get chomped on by a shark as she frolicked in the water? Lol.  And then my mind wondered again as to whether they had sunscreen back then, because people with fair skin and light eyes are prone to skin cancer……good grief….I shouldn’t be thinking things like that.  Lol  I have noticed and wondered why all the actresses that show breast in tv and movies are very small.  

I liked this episode okay, except I can’t watch the school girl scenes.  It’s too cruel and I can’t bear it.  
 

Based on where it’s going….I’m not sure this series is for me.  I powered through 1883, but I’m not inclined to do it this time, though I adore Mirren and Harrison.  Seeing them suffer so….not for me.  I will check out Yellowstone and see if that appeals to me.  Maybe, I’ll return to this in Feb.  
 

 

I was praying they would both be attacked by a shark or an another predator after they came back on land. Killing off the beautiful animals because they are “maneaters” . F*** you Spencer. Though he is eye candy it’s impossible for me to root for him. Agree about all the female nudity also.