S06.E09: Broken or Not

[bros402]

Quote

Dr. Shaun Murphy unknowingly creates a competition between Drs. Danica Powell and Daniel Perez when he introduces a new performance rating system; Dr. Morgan Reznick may have crossed a line with Dr. Alex Park.

[bros402]

This episode was all over the place. At least wheelchair guy told Lim that she can get the surgery and still be the same person. Since, holy shit, how didn't she realize that already?

[Annber03]

I wonder what she's going to say to his proposal. I get that it was largely a symbolic gesture on his part, to reassure her he'd still be there, but uh, quite the dramatic way to make that point, no? 

Not surprised that Lea's now pregnant, partly because that's how these "struggle to get pregnant" storylines always tend to go on TV shows and partly because holy foreshadowing, Batman, with all the "Picture our family in our home" talk and all. But while I don't blame Lea for being scared and wary, given her history, I do hope this does turn out okay for them. They've been through so much drama already. 

Also not worried about the whole thing with Daniel

Spoiler

given recent casting news and all.

I am curious how the aftermath of that will play out. As for Morgan and Park, all I could mainly wonder about was the potential, if not full on, conflict of interest of them working on a patient that Park had a close connection to. The ending was kinda bittersweet, though. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Annber03

[thuganomics85]

I'm confused over how many months it's been within the show so far this season.  All of this stuff with Lim and her boyfriend (don't even know his name yet) feels like it should involve a couple that have at least been together for an entire season, if not more.  I barely know him and yet I'm not only suppose to believe that Lim would consider remaining in a wheelchair for the rest of her life because she worries their relationship won't survive it (which... if anything, kind of comes off like she thinks very little of him), but I as a viewer am suppose to be majorly invested over this?  It all just feels weird and unearned.  But, hey, she finally wised up at the end and will go through with the surgery after-all, so yay!

I know we're suppose to think it was silly of Shaun to make that performance rating system for the attendees, but frankly I'm putting most of the drama on Powell and Daniel, because they were the ones that turned it all into a competition.  And it all felt like a discount version of the Park/Reznick battles back in the "good old days."

Speaking of which, I am just so over the Park/Reznick drama.  It is clear they are destined to get back together and neither one seems really happy right now.  Just quit with the games and get with it you two!

Lea's pregnant again but I'm guessing there is a fear now about what it will entail due to her health issues.  But since they already did the miscarriage story last season, they won't do that again, right?  And I don't see them killing off Lea either.

Looks like it is winter break time!  This season so far has been... something.  I mean, I don't think it's bad or anything, and I don't seem myself dropping it anytime soon, but I just haven't been invested in any part of it yet.  Even the Salen arc last season provoked an angry response: the weaker parts here (Powell, Park/Reznick, etc.) have only caused a mild annoyance, heh.  Hopefully things pick up in the new year.

[greekmom]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Also not worried about the whole thing with Daniel, given recent casting news and all, but I am curious how the aftermath of that will play out. As for Morgan and Park, all I could mainly wonder about was the potential, if not full on, conflict of interest of them working on a patient that Park had a close connection to. The ending was kinda bittersweet, though. 

What casting news?

The whole rating thing was a dick move by Shaun. 

Felt really bad for the guy with bulimia.  Eating disorders are a nasty thing because it's not like alcohol or drugs - you need food to live.   It's a fine line to toe.  I totally get how he felt though. I have a sister the same way. When I was losing she was trying to micromanage everything.  She constantly tries to get me back on the plan and to exercise.  

I am glad Lim found someone.  She's been really needing a partner since Melendez passed away.

[PaulaS]

I hate how television shows always write in the addict relapsing. This is part of the problem in why it’s so hard for people to believe in rehabilitation. I am very disappointed once again. 

[zmotana]

2 hours ago, PaulaS said:

I hate how television shows always write in the addict relapsing. This is part of the problem in why it’s so hard for people to believe in rehabilitation. I am very disappointed once again. 

Amen to that.

In opinion, it was way too rushed.

Did anyone catch any signs of Perez using again prior to tonight's episode?

I figured this would happen eventually (given his backstory), so as soon as he handed off the tools today I had alarm bells go off. But I can't think of anything specific that was weird about his behavior before today.

It just seemed unlikely to me that he'd use knowing Jordan was about to come over for dinner, unless he already relapsed. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by zmotana

[Diana Berry]

10 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I wonder what she's going to say to his proposal. I get that it was largely a symbolic gesture on his part, to reassure her he'd still be there, but uh, quite the dramatic way to make that point, no? 

Not surprised that Lea's now pregnant, partly because that's how these "struggle to get pregnant" storylines always tend to go on TV shows and partly because holy foreshadowing, Batman, with all the "Picture our family in our home" talk and all. But while I don't blame Lea for being scared and wary, given her history, I do hope this does turn out okay for them. They've been through so much drama already. 

Also not worried about the whole thing with Daniel, given recent casting news and all, but I am curious how the aftermath of that will play out. As for Morgan and Park, all I could mainly wonder about was the potential, if not full on, conflict of interest of them working on a patient that Park had a close connection to. The ending was kinda bittersweet, though. 

I think I saw the casting  news you’re referring to, still don’t know how the relapse will work with him being an intern.

I noticed the preview gave away a spoiler for Lim.  Gotta love those editors not catching it.

Morgan and Park has to be end game , guess they will drag this out until the end of the season.

Also, think Lea and Shaun will have the baby. We’ve been through too much heartache with them already.

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, PaulaS said:

I hate how television shows always write in the addict relapsing. This is part of the problem in why it’s so hard for people to believe in rehabilitation. I am very disappointed once again. 

What I hate is the rehashing of the same story over and over, without any nuance in the cases. But the fact is that most people do relapse. A lot of them relapse more than once, and a lot of them die because of it. The numbers are really low, like less than 10% of addicts can truly call themselves recovered - although I think they usually say "recovering" because it is an ongoing thing. This part of the recycled story, addicts relapsing, is true. I also don't think that TV influences people to the extent they will seek help, or believe they can be rehabilitated. 

[possibilities]

Does anyone know who the actor is who plays Lim's boyfriend?

[Lukeysboat]

13 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Also not worried about the whole thing with Daniel, given recent casting news and all

Ugh. Keep your spoilers under tags, please!

[circumvent]

53 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Does anyone know who the actor is who plays Lim's boyfriend?

He looks familiar but I cannot place him so I looked it up

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3694753/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm#family

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Lukeysboat said:

Ugh. Keep your spoilers under tags, please!

Sorry. I wasn't sure how that worked, given the news was a while ago and all. I've since edited it. 

[KaveDweller]

20 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I'm confused over how many months it's been within the show so far this season.  All of this stuff with Lim and her boyfriend (don't even know his name yet) feels like it should involve a couple that have at least been together for an entire season, if not more.  I barely know him and yet I'm not only suppose to believe that Lim would consider remaining in a wheelchair for the rest of her life because she worries their relationship won't survive it (which... if anything, kind of comes off like she thinks very little of him), but I as a viewer am suppose to be majorly invested over this?  It all just feels weird and unearned.  But, hey, she finally wised up at the end and will go through with the surgery after-all, so yay!

Yeah, it makes Lim look really weak to worry so much about a guy she's known a few weeks. If the relationship couldn't survive her walking again it can't be that great. 

Regarding Lea's pregnancy, if she really has some condition where it is dangerous for her and the baby to go through with a pregnancy, wouldn't her doctor recommend termination? I know she would have a hard time with that given their desire for a baby, and obviously the show wants angst, but that seems like the safe play. And I didn't think they told her she'd have a problem conceiving down the line, just that she had to wait for it to be safe to carry to term. But I guess we will get weeks of angst either way.

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, circumvent said:

He looks familiar but I cannot place him so I looked it up

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3694753/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm#family

Thanks! I thought he looked like he's actually paralyzed and not just acting it, but wanted to check. Sure enough, he is:

https://www.newcitystage.com/2009/03/02/unconventional-gifts-michael-patrick-thorntons-surprising-journey-from-paralysis-to-artistic-director-of-a-theater-company/

[PurpleTentacle]

21 hours ago, bros402 said:

This episode was all over the place. At least wheelchair guy told Lim that she can get the surgery and still be the same person. Since, holy shit, how didn't she realize that already?

Maybe because amputee-resident has been gaslighting her about that all season? All their talks were about how being paralised is part of Lim's identity now.

21 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I wonder what she's going to say to his proposal. I get that it was largely a symbolic gesture on his part, to reassure her he'd still be there, but uh, quite the dramatic way to make that point, no? 

I was like "Um haven't you been together for like a month?". Also so unnecessary. If it would have been to make a point, to convince her to have the surgery, fine. But she was already going in. So what's the point? In a few hours she will be out and see that you are still there.

21 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Not surprised that Lea's now pregnant, partly because that's how these "struggle to get pregnant" storylines always tend to go on TV

Thing is, they aren't struggeling to get pregnant, it's not safe for her to be pregnant right now. So it's at least different from how this storyline usually goes.

Doesn't seem like they are at least considering an abortion, though and that is very, very TV. If you want a baby, you can't even consider aborting a fetus, even if it might kill you.

21 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Speaking of which, I am just so over the Park/Reznick drama.  It is clear they are destined to get back together and neither one seems really happy right now.  Just quit with the games and get with it you two!

Word!

14 hours ago, PaulaS said:

I hate how television shows always write in the addict relapsing. This is part of the problem in why it’s so hard for people to believe in rehabilitation. I am very disappointed once again. 

I hate how relapses are treated like the end of the world and like something that if it happens, you've failed at your life forever. Fact is you have a genetic predisposition to a certain drug and due to unfortunate circumstances you became addicted to it. Relapses are most likely going to happen and not just once. That's not a moral failing.

People should be taught, that they have to be carefull, when they relapse, because their tolerance will be way down, not that a relapse means that their life is over anyway.

[bros402]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Maybe because amputee-resident has been gaslighting her about that all season? All their talks were about how being paralised is part of Lim's identity now.

True - amputee resident is acting totally inappropriately with her boss's boss.

[possibilities]

She was much less obnoxious this episode. It struck me that they're trying to replace the Morgan aggressive bitch slot, now that Morgan's getting a personality transplant and softening a bit. It's like the show thinks they need a character to fill that slot.

[circumvent]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Fact is you have a genetic predisposition to a certain drug and due to unfortunate circumstances you became addicted to it. Relapses are most likely going to happen and not just once. That's not a moral failing.

People should be taught, that they have to be carefull, when they relapse, because their tolerance will be way down, not that a relapse means that their life is over anyway.

Just read a book that touches on the subject a little, and the author wrote extensively about it before. The genetic predisposition is not clear cut, although sometimes it seems that way. Drugs in itself are also not addictive, it needs a combination of factors. But all that aside, the show tells us he is a recovering addict. Fine. all of a sudden, he relapse. Wha tI can't stand is the lack of context. People don't relapse because one day they go: I feel like having a little blow , a shot in my arm, a drink, as if they think about having some seasonal fruit. Like you said, addiction is not a moral failure and people who do struggle to stay sober and clean have other people who can help them when things get tough.

Seriously, this show is written by very uninformed, biased, unexperienced people, with some plots written by tweens

[WinJet0819]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:38 AM, PaulaS said:

I hate how television shows always write in the addict relapsing. This is part of the problem in why it’s so hard for people to believe in rehabilitation. I am very disappointed once again. 

On 12/13/2022 at 10:16 AM, zmotana said:

Amen to that.

In opinion, it was way too rushed.

Did anyone catch any signs of Perez using again prior to tonight's episode?

I figured this would happen eventually (given his backstory), so as soon as he handed off the tools today I had alarm bells go off. But I can't think of anything specific that was weird about his behavior before today.

It just seemed unlikely to me that he'd use knowing Jordan was about to come over for dinner, unless he already relapsed. 

Which makes it that much more frustrating because Daniel told her that a relationship was too much for him right now as he needs to focus on his sobriety. That was an honest answer and good decision that most recovering addicts can relate to. But then, within 4 episodes, that entire reasoning is pushed aside to keep forcing the romantic relationship with Jordan, rendering his original decision pointless and almost an insult. And what better way to keep forcing them closer than by using the plot device of Jordan finding him after he OD'd, and now they realize they love each other. It's just contrived BS that makes a mockery out of what could have been a decent recovering addict storyline.

Edited December 19, 2022 by WinJet0819

[WinJet0819]

The writing in this episode was just so forced.

Shaun and Lea's issues were probably the most believable, as couples who've had miscarriages or are struggling to conceive can relate.

The Morgan-Park crap was just a drag on the entire episode, and it has been for some time. It's tired. Two people who've broken up still have forced drama and tension between them. From the constant snarks to Park offering to be her sperm donor. And now, Park brings his date into the ER, and of course Morgan is one of doctors who works on her. And once again, non-surgeon Morgan is telling actual surgeons what they should do. Sigh.

The the Jordan-Daniel ship is another force job. And considering what Daniel said about needing to focus on his sobriety, it's a slap in the face to recovering addicts that it suddenly doesn't matter anymore as the writers push the ship with Jordan. Him overdosing is just a plot device to push them together, since the actor has been promoted to a regular.

And I can't believe Lim, a surgeon, actually was considering not having a surgery that could make her walk again because of a guy. She has a chance that most paraplegics can only dream of, and she actually had to think about it? Wow.

Edited December 14, 2022 by WinJet0819

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, WinJet0819 said:

And once again, non-surgeon Morgan is telling actually surgeons what they should do.

It appears Lim is getting her miracle surgery.  I had been expecting there to be one for Morgan for several years, but it looks like that's not the case.  Since she can't be a surgeon, it makes sense that she would want to move into an administrative position, as ambitious as she is.  In any case, I agree the will they/won't they dance between her and Park is tiring.

[Starchild]

If pregnancy is dangerous right now, shouldn't Shaun and Lea have been using birth control? If they were, I would have expected an explicit line of dialogue to point it out, since that would make them look responsible rather than reckless. I suppose it could still be coming in the next episode when hopefully someone asks them about it. (I say that because no one respects others' privacy at this hospital.)

Re: Lim's hesitation to have the surgery due to her personal life. It would be interesting if that's because she's not actually worried her new boyfriend (really? a proposal after a few weeks?!) would resent her for regaining her mobility. Instead, she subconsciously realizes that she would not want to be with him anymore, that she'd consider a disabled partner to be a hindrance to her active lifestyle. 

Think how that would blow up the weird friendship with the amputee resident. (Why can't I remember her name? Asher is the only one I can remember, though admittedly only his first name.)

Edited December 14, 2022 by Starchild

[possibilities]

I've been assuming that is exactly where the Lim story is going-- that she won't want the guy anymore once she regains her ability to walk. I'm sickened by everything about this storyline. It's a gratuitious insult to everyone involved.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I've been assuming that is exactly where the Lim story is going-- that she won't want the guy anymore once she regains her ability to walk. I'm sickened by everything about this storyline. It's a gratuitious insult to everyone involved.

If you think about it, if you are right (and I agree with you), even more disgusting is that they hired an actually disabled actor and then will end up having the newly non-disabled again ditching him because it will be too hard on her to see him on the chair while she can walk again and there is nothing she can do for him as a doctor - or some other bullshit like this. On top of all the terrible assumption this show makes, here comes another chapter on the ableism carrousel - round and round

[PurpleTentacle]

10 hours ago, circumvent said:

Just read a book that touches on the subject a little, and the author wrote extensively about it before. The genetic predisposition is not clear cut

I'd like to see that author's sources, because the genetic predisposition is very well established in the scientific literature.

Just anecdotally I can say, I don't have much of a disposition to any drug I've tried. Opiods I've been perscribed for pain, couldn't see what the fuss was about, just stoped taking them when I didn't need them anymore. Alcohol doesn't do much for me. Last time I drank was new years and that was just the ceremonial toast. Weed and LSD aren't physically addictive anyway, but I also don't have any strong psychological ties. Amphetamins I usually take for my ADHD, but haven't for two weeks, since I've been at home with covid (not that bad, just very persistant). Not even a thought about taking them.

But I do have a pretty big problem with sugar, which is also why I stay away from cocain, as both activate the same areas in the brain.

Other people take one opiod pill and are hooked. I find it curious that genetic components are very well established, just like in other areas of consumption, but with lets say, artificial sweeteners, you have no authors coming out of the woodwork trying to debunk this long settled science. Almost like there is an ulterior motive...

(I'd like to assure everybody that the drugs I've mentioned were either perscribed or completely legal where I took them)

12 hours ago, circumvent said:

Drugs in itself are also not addictive

Well that's just not true. Use alcohol, benzos, or opiods long enough, try to stop and see how non-addictive they are. Except don't, especially not with alcohol and benzos. The withdrawel of those can actually kill you.

13 hours ago, circumvent said:

But all that aside, the show tells us he is a recovering addict. Fine. all of a sudden, he relapse. Wha tI can't stand is the lack of context. People don't relapse because one day they go: I feel like having a little blow , a shot in my arm, a drink, as if they think about having some seasonal fruit. Like you said, addiction is not a moral failure and people who do struggle to stay sober and clean have other people who can help them when things get tough.

Having to have a big thing triggering a relapse would actually be very TV. Sure, that sometimes happens in real life, but not always. Staying on the wagon takes an enormous amount of willpower, every... single... day... Sometimes people just run out. Nothing more to it.

The simple fact is, like you yourself said, 90% of addicts will relapse and most of the time it's not going to be super flashy. Often they won't ask for help or have and it didn't actually help them.

[circumvent]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I'd like to see that author's sources, because the genetic predisposition is very well established in the scientific literature.

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Well that's just not true. Use alcohol, benzos, or opiods long enough, try to stop and see how non-addictive they are. Except don't, especially not with alcohol and benzos. The withdrawel of those can actually kill you.

The author is Gabor Mate. The book I read is his latest, The Myth of Normal. He talks a little about addiction, the book is about people and trauma so some of the individuals talk about their experience with drugs. But he wrote a book about drugs too, I haven't read that one. The idea that genetic predisposition is well established is actually not very scientific, There is a lot of things on the subject , supporting the idea, but not real studies that go onto the other factors of someone's life, so it is incomplete at best

The addiction come from a combination of drugs and other personal factors. a drug alone doesn't cause an addiction. If people start using it for whatever reason, because it makes them feel better, then it is a problem. In the case of opioids, the reason people start is usually pain. Because it makes them feel better, they keep using it. But the chemistry of the drug makes them need more and more of it and because people are different and have different issues in their lives, it becomes a habit because they feel better. It is not their "fault" but a combination of factors. 

[Boofish]

I started watching this show and have finally caught up. Has anyone ever come to the E.R. and not need *dramatic pause* IMMEDIATE SURGERY 

[ForReal]

On 12/14/2022 at 12:02 PM, Starchild said:

Re: Lim's hesitation to have the surgery due to her personal life. It would be interesting if that's because she's not actually worried her new boyfriend (really? a proposal after a few weeks?!) would resent her for regaining her mobility. Instead, she subconsciously realizes that she would not want to be with him anymore, that she'd consider a disabled partner to be a hindrance to her active lifestyle. 

I felt foreshadowing of this, too. When they were talking about motorcycles and he asked if she missed riding them, she said something like they are way too dangerous. While I think most surgeons would say that, she herself rode one fearlessly and sometimes recklessly, and I can't believe she wouldn't miss that. I just don't think she can admit that.

[WinJet0819]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:48 PM, Boofish said:

I started watching this show and have finally caught up. Has anyone ever come to the E.R. and not need *dramatic pause* IMMEDIATE SURGERY 

In this show, no. Especially since actual attending physicians don't exist on this show. In this show's universe, much as it is in Grey's Anatomy, the surgeons do everything, including handling ER intakes. The last episode was a prime example of why they need physicians. Theres is no way a patient should be on the table, about to have surgery, and another surgeon points out in front of the whole ER that there appears to be signs of rape. An attending physician would have caught that during the initial examination, and told the patient one-on-one in private, before an actual surgeon would have been consulted.

[circumvent]

15 minutes ago, TeeJay said:

Then again, if they depicted realistic hospital routine, the show would be almost unwatchable. It's always a difficult balance to strike between realism and interesting storytelling

I don't know, there are some docu-series that are very much watchable, and it is all real people. I can't remember the name right now, but it is about a hospital in NY. They even went back to film an extra episode when Covid hit. Super interesting

There is also a show that ran for 3 seasons and it was excellent, very realistic and fast paced. They had the usual drama, family, love interest, but the main topic was the hospital. Something happened and by the second season they hired Rob Lowe who, true to form, ruined the whole thing. It became the Super Rob Does All The Things And Saves The World. Maybe that's why it ended. Code Black was the show. There is a Code Black documentary and the show is based on that. I find it fascinating and much more interesting than the usual soup of cliches that every show has to employ - addicted doctor, staff love drama, a parent will show up to embarrass a character, maybe a character will find out they have a secret child, sex in the hold room, it is all recycled and the situations become too unrealistic.

[bros402]

8 hours ago, TeeJay said:

We've had so many medical dramas in the last few decades that it's difficult to do something really new and innovative. Every show gleans something from every other show. The storyline with Lim and Villanueva was very similar to something ER did about 20 years ago with Carter and Knight. There's lots of TGD episodes that you've seen in one way or another on other shows in the past, but it's usually the "Shaun's ASD angle" that put them in a new light.

I don't mean to sound super negative about all this. I love the show, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on a number of things. Sometimes the medical BS annoys me, but that doesn't mean I don't still love the show as a whole. I wouldn't be running a whole blog about it if it was any different.

Welcome!

Don't worry - you can be negative here, because this show sucks at all things autism. The medical stuff can be entertaining, though.

[circumvent]

12 hours ago, TeeJay said:

You know, I might have actually seen that NY show you speak about, but a documentary is something wholly different than a medical drama like TGD. I don't think TGD has the ambition to be 100% realistic. They may have an ambition to make it as realistic as possible within their confines, but the mainstay of the show is Shaun's journey through life as an autistic surgeon and person, and not the depiction of realistic medical cases. The medical cases pretty much always serve the purpose of emphasizing or propelling a personal storyline of one of the characters forward.

We've had so many medical dramas in the last few decades that it's difficult to do something really new and innovative. Every show gleans something from every other show. The storyline with Lim and Villanueva was very similar to something ER did about 20 years ago with Carter and Knight. There's lots of TGD episodes that you've seen in one way or another on other shows in the past, but it's usually the "Shaun's ASD angle" that put them in a new light.

I was just pointing out that documentaries can also be a good watch. The docu-series was Lenox Hill.

I get that there were many medical dramas. That's the problem, imo. They keep trying to do more and more but they end up falling into the same cliches and tired stories that sometimes have little to do with medicine, they would fit in any other type of drame. It happens to pretty much all other dramas that try to recreate a "first success in a genre". That and the lack of actual research, and/or willingness of the producers to really invest on the theme they first chose.

Shaun being autistic and a doctor would be interesting, because of the complexity of how his brain works. But it got too hard for the writers, they decided that Shaun would be this genius that has meltdowns anytime. Someone like him would not choose this profession, or they would have developed their own ways of coping with unexpected stress. As he is portrayed, no wasy he would be allowed to perform surgeries.

But the worst, to me, is the laziness to use a sentence or two to explain why someone who just arrived with whatever issue needs surgery RIGHT NOW! I mean, they didn't have to be 100% realistic. Not even 60%. Maybe they should include a case or two where the person REALLY needs surgery RIGHT NOW but an administrator comes in and says: sorry, insurance needs to be contacted and approve this. Then they delay the procedure, the patient dies. They made the whole 'how the hospital functions' into a mess and it is annoying 

[bros402]

19 hours ago, circumvent said:

But the worst, to me, is the laziness to use a sentence or two to explain why someone who just arrived with whatever issue needs surgery RIGHT NOW! I mean, they didn't have to be 100% realistic. Not even 60%. Maybe they should include a case or two where the person REALLY needs surgery RIGHT NOW but an administrator comes in and says: sorry, insurance needs to be contacted and approve this. Then they delay the procedure, the patient dies. They made the whole 'how the hospital functions' into a mess and it is annoying 

yuuup - especially since this place is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fancy to be a non-profit hospital

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, TeeJay said:

How do you think that the show sucks at all things autism?

The question wasn't directed at me but here is my take, knowing several autistic people, having close relationships with a bunch of them, having met them in conferences, including an autistic journalist who was, at the beginning of the series at least, going through each episode and reviewing the disability parts of it (I don't know this person personally, just via other autistic people)

Shaun is supposed to be the savant autistic. At the same time, he is someone who needs a lot of support is some areas. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive, some autistic people do need a lot of support but are still able to hold a job, for example. My problem with Shaun, and I have mentioned this here a few times because it bugs me a lot, is that they listed ALL the assumed characteristics of an autistic person and threw ALL OF THEM in the character. For example: autistic people can have meltdowns when they fell overwhelmed. It can happen to anyone. I have seen neurotypical teens being the support person to an autistic parent who had a moment of extreme stress and hit themself in the head. The thing is, Shaun being a doctor would have found ways of dealing with overwhelming situations, found a way that he can cope with the stress, like he would jump and flap, instead of driving a whole OR in disarray, or destroying vials of medication because he cannot deal with a situation. An autistic person who is not able to do that would not get as far as he has, not with the demands of internship and residency. As much as we want to see inclusion, hospitals are businesses, and patients don't need to have to deal with any doctor distress before they have the attention they need. 

That's my problem with the show: an autistic doctor like Shaun does not exist and cannot be effective. As portrayed, he would be better in research, for example. I also think that Freddy overacts the quirks at times. It becomes a caricature. 

We probably know autistic doctors but we probably have never seen one having meltdowns, or say certain things in the way Shaun does. Autistic people can and do learn how to pass as non autistic, for better of for worse. I doubt that an autistic doctor who tells the truth in such a direct way would last long, even with all the "special skills". In theory, the truth is a good thing to know, but it needs to come wrapped in empathy. Autistic people are empaths (contrary to some organizations claiming the contrary) so why is Shaun so cold and brusque? He sometimes comes around and learn but at the expense of the patient's comfort. If he can learn, so why every other episode is a mess of lack of empathy and social skills? That's a bad portrayal of autism. 

[bros402]

7 hours ago, TeeJay said:

Yes, I absolutely understand what you mean, and I've seen that as a criticism from autistic fans as well. There are way too many instances where Shaun fucked up and walked away with impunity when he shouldn't have. I once made a list of it for my blog. Me and a fellow fan came back with, I think, 28 instances over the 5 and a half seasons. The whole vial smashing thing was totally glossed over. At the very least he should have been reprimanded afterwards that he can't just go around and destroy hospital property in a huff of anger.

Surely, once an autistic person gets to the point where a meltdown is threatening, it's extremely difficult to get pulled out of that. I can't really speak to it with any level of expertise, so I may be wrong about this, but I think the way they were justifying that particular situation was that it wasn't just the expired medication and the baby's death, it was a culmination of many massive stress factors, including the Ethicure changes, Salen and then of course Glassman leaving and the fear of abandonment that came back to the surface with a vengeance. But I don't wanna justify anything. I agree that there are many situations where, in real life, Shaun would have been long fired as a doctor.

I guess it comes back to creative license. It's a fine line to walk to tell interesting, suspenseful stories and be realistic at the same time. The show would just not be as interesting if Shaun didn't have some kind of massive personal crisis at least once a season, you know. 🙂

As for the empathy vs. brusqueness, I don't think that's portrayed in a way that's super unrealistic. I recently read an article about the show from back in 2017 that was written by a person with ASD who explained that there's a difference between affective and cognitive empathy. Individuals with ASD often struggle with affective empathy, meaning they can't tell how someone is feeling based off of body language or other non-verbal cues. Cognitive empathy is the kind where you feel bad for someone when you know they're hurting, which Shaun definitely has quite a lot of. Here's a quote from that article: "Autistic people care deeply about hurting others. I may have a hard time knowing I’ve said something rude to a friend or family member, but if they tell me I hurt them, I feel bad about hurting them." We see that quite a lot in Shaun, too.

The way I read Shaun's brusqueness is that he often just can't tell that he's coming across as rude because to him, the way he's behaving is perfectly fine. He doesn't understand or recognise that it may be offensive to others. As soon as he becomes aware that this is a problem, he usually course-corrects as best as he knows how. My understanding is that this is fairly normal for certain individuals with ASD.

 

11 hours ago, TeeJay said:

Interesting, because I had heard otherwise from people who are autistic themselves. I've found that sometimes fans or viewers who have ASD tend to say that ASD isn't portrayed "the right way" on the show, citing that Shaun's autism doesn't present in a certain way or that his traits don't mirror how this one person's traits present. Which I find a bit puzzling, to be honest, because no autistic person is like the other. One could have a somewhat robotic speech pattern like Shaun, someone else could not have that but instead have something else. Freddie Highmore has said many times in interviews that Shaun only represents one person with autism and not all people with autism.

How do you think that the show sucks at all things autism? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about this, particularly since I've also written fan fiction for the show, and I really care a great deal about wanting to portray that part as accurately as I can, or as accurately as the show and my own somewhat limited knowledge will let me.

I think a lot of that is just creative license to make the best use of the already very limited 42 minutes of screen time they get each week. No one wants to see patients fill out forms, right? I get what you're saying, though. Sometimes it takes very little to make something more realistic that could be easily worked into the scripts without taking away from screen time or suspense. It's indeed frustrating when that happens.

I'm not sure that it's a non-profit hospital right now. It was before Salen wanted to buy them, but we don't really know what kind of deal was struck afterwards or where or who their funding now comes from. I'm one of the possibly few people who actually loved the Salen arc, but there was a lot of unrealistic handwaving at the end with how they resolved that. You probably talked about that when season 5 was airing...

I know the show is massively unrealistic at times, but most of the time I'm willing to shrug that off because I still love the stories they're telling. But yeah, sometimes it doesn't take that much to elevate the writing, and I occasionally yell at the TV about silly things they write as well.

With the meltdown - sometimes you can pull up from the impending meltdow and at least try to communicate it or get somewhere else, but people like to get in the way.

This show takes every stereotypical "trait" of autism and pour it into one person. He hasn't found a way to cope with the stress of being a doctor, but somehow he keeps doing it even though it is clearly not good for him. With someone like Shaun, who at one point stated he wished he could cure his autism (Or something like that), you think he would've learned to mask and try to hide it - but instead we just get Mr. Autism. With how "autistic" he is, he never would've gotten through his bachelors, let alone med school! 

The way Shaun is a bucket of every autistic trait is like saying Rain Man is an accurate portrayal of autism. I have seen some people go "But he also has savant syndrome!" - which... isn't really possible with how intelligent they portray Shaun. I believe that the highest IQ ever seen in someone with Savant Syndrome is 130, and they usually have significant deficits in everything other than their area of interest - which Shaun doesn't. He can still function.

Now, if they had shown Shaun trying to better himself, even mentioning he has seen a therapist after he has a big meltdown, that would be good. He knows some sounds trigger him, so you think he might carry around earplugs or noise cancelling headphones - but he doesn't attempt to come up with anything for him to try to help himself. He carries about that toy all day, why not put some noise cancelling earbuds in?

You should see how this show is received by autistics on the Ourtism discord. I'm the only one there who keeps watching it, I just enjoy it for hate watching.

[circumvent]

11 hours ago, TeeJay said:

I guess it comes back to creative license. It's a fine line to walk to tell interesting, suspenseful stories and be realistic at the same time. The show would just not be as interesting if Shaun didn't have some kind of massive personal crisis at least once a season, you know.

I disagree. The portrayal is damaging for autistic people in a way that either makes them seem impossible to live with, makes them seem just a a huge walking "quirckiness", or makes them look like those geniuses that need guidance and protection all the time. 

Remember Rainman? The character was based on someone who wasn't even autistic, but the label stuck and every autistic person at the time was asked if they could count matchsticks that people would drop on the floor. I am  not making this up, it happened. Popular culture is important. If they want dramatic license, they should have a warning label in the beginning of the show. And a license doesn't mean they get to pack all the stereotypes and throw at a character as if that character exists. Like bros402 said, noise cancelling headphones would be a realistic tool that Shaun person could wear.

As for the empathy, some autistic people have difficulties with expressive empathy. But that's a whole other long post.

There is a series that had an actor who is not autistic do a great job as an autistic. I think the name of the series is The Code and I think it is an Australian production. The meltdowns and the rest of his demeanor were spot on. 

There is also an Australian show that is on Netflix - Heartbreak High - and they have an autistic actress playing an autistic teenager and that's the ultimate portrayal. She likely had a lot on input on the writing because it is so good. It is an interesting show, a remake of an original that ran in the 90s, I think. But I haven't seen the original so I don't know it they had an autistic character there but the remake is 100% worth watching, even though it is a teen show that sometimes is hard for an old person like me to watch 

[possibilities]

Here's another show with an autistic actress playing an autistic character: "Everything's Gonna Be Okay".

I think that when shows cast non-autistic actors for autistic characters, it usually betrays that they think real autistic people can't be worked with, i.e. they think folks are too dysfunctional or too much hassle-- they don't want to make reasonable accommodations, or they lack faith in people to be competent.

So they cast non-autistic actors and are exploiting stereotypes to fulfill their own fantasies.

I know a good actor can do a good job with a role that has nothing to do with who they are outside of acting. But in the world we live in, most will just fall on stereotypes and not bother to actually learn what's true so they can portray it, and writers and directors are just as bad, so nobody in production cares or notices.

[bros402]

16 hours ago, possibilities said:

Here's another show with an autistic actress playing an autistic character: "Everything's Gonna Be Okay".

I think that when shows cast non-autistic actors for autistic characters, it usually betrays that they think real autistic people can't be worked with, i.e. they think folks are too dysfunctional or too much hassle-- they don't want to make reasonable accommodations, or they lack faith in people to be competent.

So they cast non-autistic actors and are exploiting stereotypes to fulfill their own fantasies.

I know a good actor can do a good job with a role that has nothing to do with who they are outside of acting. But in the world we live in, most will just fall on stereotypes and not bother to actually learn what's true so they can portray it, and writers and directors are just as bad, so nobody in production cares or notices.

I loooooooved EGBO - I hated that it got cancelled. The actress who played Drea, Lillian Carrier, actually started the charity that I linked up above, Ourtism.

[jacourt]

I think we have had negative posts lately because the show has not had new episodes.  Once the new ones start posters chat more about the characters and the storylines.  TeeJay stick around!

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, TeeJay said:

To be honest, I don't get that at all. For me, that would be a total waste of my time, just to watch something to then get annoyed and feel the need to rant about how much I hate it. That's a such a big source of self-imposed negativity in one's life. So you're using this forum as an outlet to tell everyone how bad the show is, how much they get the autism wrong in each and every episode and how much you hate the show? I was hoping this could be a place where I could talk about the show with other fans who have a fondness for the show, but I see that perhaps this impression was very wrong.

Speaking for myself, obviously, TV IS kind of a waste of my time. I watch TV mainly  so I don't have to think about anything after my very busy days. If I miss a dialogue, or doze off during an episode, no big deal. I prefer reading but am too tired to read in the evening.

I do enjoy good writing so when I pay attention and see the crap that is being written, I do feel like venting. No better place to vent than a place like here, where people can be anonymous and find "kindred souls". Regarding this particular show, I have too many autistic/disabled friends, the most important person in my life is autistic, so when I see the complete mess they did with the character, the urge to call them off is even more intense.

I don't see this as self-imposed negativity. It is just TV, and TV is so not my life. I call it release. It works for me. Sometimes it is even a place you can get tips about other shows and learn things about issues that you might not encounter every day in your own life. Plus, good laughs. I post things here, I vent and virtually yell, then I forget about it until I open the computer and decide to come back and there is a reply or another comment. This is why it does not affect my life negatively. It might even affect it positively, when I learn something new.

Having said that, because I believe popular culture have a place in educating and informing, when I have more information than the writers I think some people might find that some my comments have value.

I have been in these forums for a while and it has had many names. As I remember, the first time I joined it was all about snark so I think I am keeping with the original theme and being part of a legacy on TV viewers' commentaries -snarking is kinder name for hate watching.

[circumvent]

20 minutes ago, TeeJay said:

But there's a difference between critical fan discourse and hate-watching a show and then going to a forum just to repeatedly vent about how much it sucks.

 

21 minutes ago, TeeJay said:

I get this exact response you gave me: We have free speech, everyone is entitled to sharing their opinion, and criticism is a good thing because it will tell the writers what they need to improve.

To those two points: I don't aim to be critical at all. And if I come here, it is because this forum exists, I just use it because it is here, so there is an audience for that too

To the second point, I never said it is free speech and that I am entitled to share my opinion, much less that I want the tell the writers to improve. I don't know who they are. I just vent.

[izabella]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:13 AM, bros402 said:

Now, if they had shown Shaun trying to better himself, even mentioning he has seen a therapist after he has a big meltdown, that would be good. He knows some sounds trigger him, so you think he might carry around earplugs or noise cancelling headphones - but he doesn't attempt to come up with anything for him to try to help himself. He carries about that toy all day, why not put some noise cancelling earbuds in?

I remain mystified why Shaun has zero support for his autism outside of Glassman.  I would have thought some professional would be able to help him to control his meltdowns better, and teach him some things that would help him mitigate some of his issues so it's easier for him to do his job and go through life on a day to day basis.  Instead, he has been portrayed as vehemently against any and all help, yet he's camped out in Glassman's office seeking help almost daily.

[bros402]

9 hours ago, izabella said:

I remain mystified why Shaun has zero support for his autism outside of Glassman.  I would have thought some professional would be able to help him to control his meltdowns better, and teach him some things that would help him mitigate some of his issues so it's easier for him to do his job and go through life on a day to day basis.  Instead, he has been portrayed as vehemently against any and all help, yet he's camped out in Glassman's office seeking help almost daily.

It's for the sake of drama. Someone like Shaun who is ambitious would've sought out support by this point. I could understand if Shaun were like "I only trust Glassman to help me since I have known him for a while" but that would be something that a therapist could help him with - expanding his support system. When Glassman had his brain tumor would have been the perfect time to do it.

 

 

17 hours ago, TeeJay said:

To be honest, I don't get that at all. For me, that would be a total waste of my time, just to watch something to then get annoyed and feel the need to rant about how much I hate it. That's a such a big source of self-imposed negativity in one's life. So you're using this forum as an outlet to tell everyone how bad the show is, how much they get the autism wrong in each and every episode and how much you hate the show? I was hoping this could be a place where I could talk about the show with other fans who have a fondness for the show, but I see that perhaps this impression was very wrong.

The medical drama can be entertaining. Hate watching isn't negative and doesn't make me feel negative emotions.

This place has people who like the show - it is possible to like some aspects of the show and not like some aspects.

[possibilities]

I'm not autistic, but I am disabled. I can testify that there is a lot of drama to be had just from getting from point A to B, without it being about my own coping skills being somehow at the level of a child rather than an adult who has been living with and developing those skills for a long time. Shaun would not be a surgeon if he had meltdowns during his residency. It's just not reasonable. But they could have either started the show earlier in his life to show him developing his skills, or they could have based the show around how interesting it is that he's atypical, without it being about it being dysfunctional.

I think a lot of shows have interesting characters and situations without having a character who is not doing the things a reasonable person would do in order to get where they are. The way they portray Shaun is insulting because it paints him as being more dysfunctional than he would be in his role, and it adds to the negative weight of public opinion that disabled people deal with (or neuro-atypical people deal with).

I think the show would be much more interesting if they had Shaun stay as himself, but showed how interesting he is, not because he hasn't got support or learned how to handle things without busting up the OR or whatever, but because of what makes him atypical. In other words, they have chosen a path that implies that the only thing that makes him interesting is his lack of skills, not his creativity in addressing his situation.

There are also ways his atypical personality is an asset-- sometimes his bluntness has been well-received by patients, or he is able to recognize another autistic person and relate to them better than the neurotypical staff, for instance. The only asset they actually use with him is his savant abilities, but there are other traits that he has that are assets also, and they could show that more.

I'm also really bothered that he explicitly doesn't want to have any autistic people in his life-- no friends, no colleagues. That's absolutely obnoxious and leans into the narrative that "he's special" and actually increases stigma against autistic people in real life. Even Shaun, Our Hero, doesn't like other people with autism! It's so insulting.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think a lot of shows have interesting characters and situations without having a character who is not doing the things a reasonable person would do in order to get where they are. The way they portray Shaun is insulting because it paints him as being more dysfunctional than he would be in his role, and it adds to the negative weight of public opinion that disabled people deal with (or neuro-atypical people deal with).

Agree with your whole post, just wanted to add that the writing also infantilizes him

[izabella]

I think it would be very interesting to see Shaun in therapy, and to see him with autistic friends or even a support group.  I think that would be very much in line with what this show is supposed to be about.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, TeeJay said:

I hear all your criticism, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I think if they were making the show the way you're describing you'd rather see it written, it would be very boring and it wouldn't have ratings that would sustain it beyond one or two seasons. I know I most probably wouldn't be watching it.

Have you heard of the term of suspension of disbelief? The show is a lot more enjoyable if you learn to employ that for the sake of escapism.

I don't think that representation, the portrayal of an actual autistic life is boring. That's a bit dismissive. The last thing they are is boring. Maybe it wouldn't have the ratings. I happen to think that respect for communities that are not typical, or the majority is important. If it is all about the money, then the whole autistic consultant, autistic writers is pointless because honest portrayal will always be trumped by the need to keep running a show for money

It is hard to suspend disbelief on issues that I deal with on a daily basis because in the end it is, like possibilities said, insulting. Just imagine something that is so far out in any other group. Imagine a show where mainstream women in 2023 were being portrayed as housewives only, obeying their husbands (in a situation that is current, not dystopian), in the United States. Suspension of disbelief would not work so well, would it? 

I think that what most of us wished - or I wished - is that they had a more accurate portrayal of autism. A few changes, instead of a character that cannot exist in the real world as written. 

Since there is no way to reverse the mess of having a surgeon go through med school and all the training while not learning to manage overwhelming situations, why can't he be shown to learn how to cope with meltdowns, fail at times, kill a patient because of that, go through some personal growth? He's had some of that growth but it is all after a lot of infantilizing, not enough accountability, imo. Why can't Shaun have autistic friends, as pointed out several times? Or even show his autistic routines. In the first seasons, they would show him timing his shower, his grooming, his breakfast. It was interesting. They don't have to repeat the same stuff every episode, but they can find other routines, even obsessions. I am not a writer and came up with ideas just by living with autistic people. apparently the autistic writers doesn't have a lot of sway in the writers' room, or doesn't care enough

Edited January 14, 2023 by circumvent

[possibilities]

If they don't want to portray a realistic or at least not insulting version of autism, then why have an autistic character at all? It's exploitive and it creates problems in the world.

I think it's easy to dismiss criticisms that don't affect you or anyone you care about, but when it's your own people being targeted, it comes across worse and is harder to overlook. Context matters.

Positive fandom isn't dead, but it has to be earned. If you like something, you can post about what you like. Maybe others will join in and validate your feelings or share their own positive feelings. And if a show does things well, more people will like it. But we all have a right to our own reasons to like or dislike something, or to like or dislike parts of something. 

I've found that the more I watch this show, the less I like it. But there are other shows I love and other people are less enthusiastic. It might be disappointing, but that's life. 

You should see me over in the Station 19 forum. I think I might be the only person left who loves it and doesn't hate it. C'est la vie!

There are a lot of shows where I love some parts and object to others. I find that the more I know about a subject, the more inaccurate a show will seem. But some inaccuracies are okay with me, they're funny or inspiring or in some other way creative and not obnoxious. I don't think my problem with The Good Doctor is an inability to suspend disbelief. It's that I am actively annoyed by what they're trying to sell me, which is a boatload of negative stereotypes and offensive ideas about autistic people.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

Since there is no way to reverse the mess of having a surgeon go through med school and all the training while not learning to manage overwhelming situations, why can't he be shown to learn how to cope with meltdowns, fail at times, kill a patient because of that, go through some personal growth? He's had some of that growth but it is all after a lot of infantilizing, not enough accountability, imo. Why can't Shaun have autistic friends, as pointed out several times? Or even show his autistic routines. In the first seasons, they would show him timing his shower, his grooming, his breakfast. It was interesting. They don't have to repeat the same stuff every episode, but they can find other routines, even obsessions. I am not a writer and came up with ideas just by living with autistic people. apparently the autistic writers doesn't have a lot of sway in the writers' room, or doesn't care enough

Writers do this with a lot of medical issues.  On Grey's Anatomy, one of the main characters was in a plane crash and ended up losing part of her leg.  The writers focused on that for a while, and wrote her as someone who used a prosthetic.  But, at some point, they seemed to forget all about it.  They had her running up and down stairs in her townhouse.  I think the writers get bored, or think the audience would be bored, of continuing to see the realities of their plots.  But I think they are wrong.  On House, for example, his damaged leg was practically its own character.