S06.E09: Broken or Not

[bros402]

9 hours ago, izabella said:

I remain mystified why Shaun has zero support for his autism outside of Glassman.  I would have thought some professional would be able to help him to control his meltdowns better, and teach him some things that would help him mitigate some of his issues so it's easier for him to do his job and go through life on a day to day basis.  Instead, he has been portrayed as vehemently against any and all help, yet he's camped out in Glassman's office seeking help almost daily.

It's for the sake of drama. Someone like Shaun who is ambitious would've sought out support by this point. I could understand if Shaun were like "I only trust Glassman to help me since I have known him for a while" but that would be something that a therapist could help him with - expanding his support system. When Glassman had his brain tumor would have been the perfect time to do it.

 

 

17 hours ago, TeeJay said:

To be honest, I don't get that at all. For me, that would be a total waste of my time, just to watch something to then get annoyed and feel the need to rant about how much I hate it. That's a such a big source of self-imposed negativity in one's life. So you're using this forum as an outlet to tell everyone how bad the show is, how much they get the autism wrong in each and every episode and how much you hate the show? I was hoping this could be a place where I could talk about the show with other fans who have a fondness for the show, but I see that perhaps this impression was very wrong.

The medical drama can be entertaining. Hate watching isn't negative and doesn't make me feel negative emotions.

This place has people who like the show - it is possible to like some aspects of the show and not like some aspects.

[possibilities]

I'm not autistic, but I am disabled. I can testify that there is a lot of drama to be had just from getting from point A to B, without it being about my own coping skills being somehow at the level of a child rather than an adult who has been living with and developing those skills for a long time. Shaun would not be a surgeon if he had meltdowns during his residency. It's just not reasonable. But they could have either started the show earlier in his life to show him developing his skills, or they could have based the show around how interesting it is that he's atypical, without it being about it being dysfunctional.

I think a lot of shows have interesting characters and situations without having a character who is not doing the things a reasonable person would do in order to get where they are. The way they portray Shaun is insulting because it paints him as being more dysfunctional than he would be in his role, and it adds to the negative weight of public opinion that disabled people deal with (or neuro-atypical people deal with).

I think the show would be much more interesting if they had Shaun stay as himself, but showed how interesting he is, not because he hasn't got support or learned how to handle things without busting up the OR or whatever, but because of what makes him atypical. In other words, they have chosen a path that implies that the only thing that makes him interesting is his lack of skills, not his creativity in addressing his situation.

There are also ways his atypical personality is an asset-- sometimes his bluntness has been well-received by patients, or he is able to recognize another autistic person and relate to them better than the neurotypical staff, for instance. The only asset they actually use with him is his savant abilities, but there are other traits that he has that are assets also, and they could show that more.

I'm also really bothered that he explicitly doesn't want to have any autistic people in his life-- no friends, no colleagues. That's absolutely obnoxious and leans into the narrative that "he's special" and actually increases stigma against autistic people in real life. Even Shaun, Our Hero, doesn't like other people with autism! It's so insulting.

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think a lot of shows have interesting characters and situations without having a character who is not doing the things a reasonable person would do in order to get where they are. The way they portray Shaun is insulting because it paints him as being more dysfunctional than he would be in his role, and it adds to the negative weight of public opinion that disabled people deal with (or neuro-atypical people deal with).

Agree with your whole post, just wanted to add that the writing also infantilizes him

[TeeJay]

I hear all your criticism, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I think if they were making the show the way you're describing you'd rather see it written, it would be very boring and it wouldn't have ratings that would sustain it beyond one or two seasons. I know I most probably wouldn't be watching it.

Have you heard of the term of suspension of disbelief? The show is a lot more enjoyable if you learn to employ that for the sake of escapism.

Edited January 14 by TeeJay

[izabella]

I think it would be very interesting to see Shaun in therapy, and to see him with autistic friends or even a support group.  I think that would be very much in line with what this show is supposed to be about.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, TeeJay said:

I hear all your criticism, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I think if they were making the show the way you're describing you'd rather see it written, it would be very boring and it wouldn't have ratings that would sustain it beyond one or two seasons. I know I most probably wouldn't be watching it.

Have you heard of the term of suspension of disbelief? The show is a lot more enjoyable if you learn to employ that for the sake of escapism.

I don't think that representation, the portrayal of an actual autistic life is boring. That's a bit dismissive. The last thing they are is boring. Maybe it wouldn't have the ratings. I happen to think that respect for communities that are not typical, or the majority is important. If it is all about the money, then the whole autistic consultant, autistic writers is pointless because honest portrayal will always be trumped by the need to keep running a show for money

It is hard to suspend disbelief on issues that I deal with on a daily basis because in the end it is, like possibilities said, insulting. Just imagine something that is so far out in any other group. Imagine a show where mainstream women in 2023 were being portrayed as housewives only, obeying their husbands (in a situation that is current, not dystopian), in the United States. Suspension of disbelief would not work so well, would it? 

I think that what most of us wished - or I wished - is that they had a more accurate portrayal of autism. A few changes, instead of a character that cannot exist in the real world as written. 

Since there is no way to reverse the mess of having a surgeon go through med school and all the training while not learning to manage overwhelming situations, why can't he be shown to learn how to cope with meltdowns, fail at times, kill a patient because of that, go through some personal growth? He's had some of that growth but it is all after a lot of infantilizing, not enough accountability, imo. Why can't Shaun have autistic friends, as pointed out several times? Or even show his autistic routines. In the first seasons, they would show him timing his shower, his grooming, his breakfast. It was interesting. They don't have to repeat the same stuff every episode, but they can find other routines, even obsessions. I am not a writer and came up with ideas just by living with autistic people. apparently the autistic writers doesn't have a lot of sway in the writers' room, or doesn't care enough

Edited January 14 by circumvent

[TeeJay]

One aspect of the whole thing is also that those situations where we Shaun going into meltdowns are usually very extreme situations that I'm not sure a real life surgeon would be facing, with the possible exception of the almost-meltdown during his first lead surgery.

I dunno, this all sounds like you're just here in this forum to vent about how much you hate how badly Shaun's ASD is portrayed. If that's the case and we have these discussions on every episode thread in the future, then I'm not gonna be sticking around for very long. I see enough of the hater comments on Reddit and the other social media, I don't need another place where people crap all over the writing choices. I guess positive fandom experience is dead.

Edited January 14 by TeeJay

[possibilities]

If they don't want to portray a realistic or at least not insulting version of autism, then why have an autistic character at all? It's exploitive and it creates problems in the world.

I think it's easy to dismiss criticisms that don't affect you or anyone you care about, but when it's your own people being targeted, it comes across worse and is harder to overlook. Context matters.

Positive fandom isn't dead, but it has to be earned. If you like something, you can post about what you like. Maybe others will join in and validate your feelings or share their own positive feelings. And if a show does things well, more people will like it. But we all have a right to our own reasons to like or dislike something, or to like or dislike parts of something. 

I've found that the more I watch this show, the less I like it. But there are other shows I love and other people are less enthusiastic. It might be disappointing, but that's life. 

You should see me over in the Station 19 forum. I think I might be the only person left who loves it and doesn't hate it. C'est la vie!

There are a lot of shows where I love some parts and object to others. I find that the more I know about a subject, the more inaccurate a show will seem. But some inaccuracies are okay with me, they're funny or inspiring or in some other way creative and not obnoxious. I don't think my problem with The Good Doctor is an inability to suspend disbelief. It's that I am actively annoyed by what they're trying to sell me, which is a boatload of negative stereotypes and offensive ideas about autistic people.

[TeeJay]

Then can I ask why you still watch the show if you think it's massively inaccurate, it's insulting to individuals with ASD and other disabilities, it's exploitative and annoying? It comes back to the idea I really don't understand: Why do people voluntarily put themselves through such a negative experience week to week?

[izabella]

2 hours ago, circumvent said:

Since there is no way to reverse the mess of having a surgeon go through med school and all the training while not learning to manage overwhelming situations, why can't he be shown to learn how to cope with meltdowns, fail at times, kill a patient because of that, go through some personal growth? He's had some of that growth but it is all after a lot of infantilizing, not enough accountability, imo. Why can't Shaun have autistic friends, as pointed out several times? Or even show his autistic routines. In the first seasons, they would show him timing his shower, his grooming, his breakfast. It was interesting. They don't have to repeat the same stuff every episode, but they can find other routines, even obsessions. I am not a writer and came up with ideas just by living with autistic people. apparently the autistic writers doesn't have a lot of sway in the writers' room, or doesn't care enough

Writers do this with a lot of medical issues.  On Grey's Anatomy, one of the main characters was in a plane crash and ended up losing part of her leg.  The writers focused on that for a while, and wrote her as someone who used a prosthetic.  But, at some point, they seemed to forget all about it.  They had her running up and down stairs in her townhouse.  I think the writers get bored, or think the audience would be bored, of continuing to see the realities of their plots.  But I think they are wrong.  On House, for example, his damaged leg was practically its own character.

 

[bros402]

9 hours ago, TeeJay said:

I hear all your criticism, and to a certain extent I agree with it, but I think if they were making the show the way you're describing you'd rather see it written, it would be very boring and it wouldn't have ratings that would sustain it beyond one or two seasons. I know I most probably wouldn't be watching it.

Have you heard of the term of suspension of disbelief? The show is a lot more enjoyable if you learn to employ that for the sake of escapism.

They can still have it be entertaining and use the oddities of everyday life of autistics to make things interesting. Suspension of disbelief is great, but it doesn't really work when the character never progresses. Shaun being in therapy and improving over time would be great for his character and it would be at least a season's worth of B plots.

[TeeJay]

10 hours ago, izabella said:

Writers do this with a lot of medical issues.  On Grey's Anatomy, one of the main characters was in a plane crash and ended up losing part of her leg.  The writers focused on that for a while, and wrote her as someone who used a prosthetic.  But, at some point, they seemed to forget all about it.  They had her running up and down stairs in her townhouse.  I think the writers get bored, or think the audience would be bored, of continuing to see the realities of their plots.  But I think they are wrong.  On House, for example, his damaged leg was practically its own character.

Yeah, well, in my mind Grey's Anatomy should never be used as a means to measure by since it's one of the most unrealistic medical shows to exist. None if it is even remotely realistic, and the thing with Arizona's leg was not just massively ridiculous but also insulting to anyone who's an above-the-knee amputee. I was so happy to see that TGD cast an actual amputee to portray an amputee! Or an actor in a wheelchair to play one (Clay).

 

4 hours ago, bros402 said:

They can still have it be entertaining and use the oddities of everyday life of autistics to make things interesting. Suspension of disbelief is great, but it doesn't really work when the character never progresses. Shaun being in therapy and improving over time would be great for his character and it would be at least a season's worth of B plots.

If you say Shaun has never progressed, I recommend you watch old season 1 episodes now and compare the Shaun then to the Shaun in season 6. There has a huge deal of progression, both on a professional and on a personal level.

[circumvent]

11 hours ago, TeeJay said:

Then can I ask why you still watch the show if you think it's massively inaccurate, it's insulting to individuals with ASD and other disabilities, it's exploitative and annoying? It comes back to the idea I really don't understand: Why do people voluntarily put themselves through such a negative experience week to week?

Holding on until cannot hold on anymore. Also, shed whatever knowledge I have about the inaccuracies I see so other viewers who don't have a clue about autism start understanding that the show is a  big stereotypical assumption about autism and autistics. I know it sounds arrogant but I do know more than some and because of my involvement with the disabled community, I think I can try to amplify what I am told and see them experiencing. I watch in hopes they will show something interesting, which sometimes they do, and to "clean up" the mess they created. Disabilities are stigmatizing enough. You said it yourself, that you would be bored if Shaun was more like we would like him to be, or the stories would be told differently. But what some of us are saying, is that we would like to see less stigma and more reality. Autistic people are not shining objects, they are also not a problem to be solved. So we point out the stigma and assumptions being perpetuated in this show. 

[TeeJay]

2 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Holding on until cannot hold on anymore. Also, shed whatever knowledge I have about the inaccuracies I see so other viewers who don't have a clue about autism start understanding that the show is a  big stereotypical assumption about autism and autistics. I know it sounds arrogant but I do know more than some and because of my involvement with the disabled community, I think I can try to amplify what I am told and see them experiencing. I watch in hopes they will show something interesting, which sometimes they do, and to "clean up" the mess they created. Disabilities are stigmatizing enough. You said it yourself, that you would be bored if Shaun was more like we would like him to be, or the stories would be told differently. But what some of us are saying, is that we would like to see less stigma and more reality. Autistic people are not shining objects, they are also not a problem to be solved. So we point out the stigma and assumptions being perpetuated in this show. 

All very valid points, and I like the idea of people from the autism and disabled communities pointing out shortcomings in a productive way, but these past few days all I've seen in this forum is a constant stream of people harping on what is wrong with the show and how terribly it portrays autism. If you like the show enough to keep watching it, then why not also talk about the things you actually like?

I'm not sure I understand the argument either to say: They've been doing this all wrong for six years, but every single week I hope they realise this and fix everything to my satisfaction. It's been six years. It's the same showrunner, the same writers, the same main cast, the same consultants who all lean on a concept that has worked for all these years and that still brings in high enough ratings to keep up renewal. Unless they revamp their whole production team, I think holding out for this hope of significant change is a bit of a futile endeavour.

[TeeJay]

I also wanna say that, as what I hope is a fairly neutral viewer, I've never had the impression once that they were portraying Shaun as a "thing to be fixed". Quite the opposite. They have reiterated that Shaun's ASD is a thing that cannot be fixed, that it's part of who Shaun is that it it will never go away and that Shaun doesn't want it to be fixed. They have also put a woman by his side who accepts and loves him the way he is, who only this season told him, "I love your brain, Shaun," when he had another self-depreciating moment that his ASD was making things difficult. I'm not sure where this view you're suggesting is coming from.

[circumvent]

Law and Order, Grey's Anatomy, are shows that have been running for how long? I don't watch those, but I know that the characters have been there long enough to be grandparent's by now. Ratings and quality are not cause/consequence. People are so uneducated about disabilities that they will believe any stereotype. TV shows get chosen, or keep running, according to, in part, the power the producers have in the studio. 

I do expect that the writers improve the quality of the scripts to satisfy reality. Not to fix to my satisfaction, to make it accurate. Like I said, disabilities are stigmatizing enough, the show could be education instead of going for the easy pickings of inspiration porn. 

Shaun did improve in some areas, so it is baffling that they still make the character an impossibility. They don't address that part, a surgeon who still has destructive meltdowns and keeps his job. The fact that he kept the job after destroying medication is part of the inspiration/pity porn aspect. They could have addressed the situation in an adult way. Instead, they chose to please the audience (hey, ratings!) and mostly ignore the incident. That's pity porn. The audience sees him as this brilliant autistic person (shiny!) and at the same time this "poor guy" who needs a second chance BECAUSE he is autistic (infantilization). 

In some episodes, I don't even see Shaun as autistic. Where are the images of how his brain processes the problems in the OR? Freddy also overacts in some scenes.

 

[TeeJay]

I dunno, this sounds like you think Shaun's ASD needs to be portrayed in this very specific way that you think is representative of autism, and that the show constantly gets it wrong because it doesn't meet your expectation of ASD. Who's to say that people like Shaun don't exist in the real world? Who's to say that there can't be individuals with ASD who present pretty much exactly like Shaun? In fact, I know members in the fandom who have ASD and have said they find Freddie's portrayal of ASD incredibly realistic and they think he very much reflects how they feel and how their autistic traits present. Would you claim that those people are wrong because your idea of how ASD looks like is different from their experience?

Freddie has said many times that Shaun is supposed to present one individual with ASD and not all of them. Just like one neurotypical character on a show is not supposed to represent all other neurotypicals. Have you considered that maybe Freddie isn't overacting, he's just acting the way they decided Shaun's autism would present?

I very much agree with you on the vial smashing. In fact, in my episode recap I spoke to that point and remarked how Shaun should at the very least have been reprimanded for that. And perhaps we was -- off screen. In winter last year when we had the long hiatus, I wrote a long gap filler fanfic that continued the 5x07 storyline, and I made sure to include a scene where Lim talked to Shaun about how it was not okay to go around the hospital and smash property.

At the same time, that scene with Shaun breaking down in the pharmacy is one of my all time favourites of all seasons because it was intense and angsty and really drew you in, with an incredible performance given by Freddie. That's the kind of thing that, yes, the viewers want to see. If you take that away, the ratings go away.

I don't know what your ultimate wish is here. What I'm hearing is that you want a show that portrays the professional and personal journey of an autistic protagonist trying to fit into a neurotypical world, yet you want him to be able to perfectly mask at all times, to perfectly cope with any stressful situation because autisitc people need to learn that skill in a professional world, and you want him to always be at the top of his game and never melt down, fail or rub people the wrong way, because when he does, that's pity porn or inspiration porn or infantilisation. Honestly, it kinda sounds like that show could never do right by you, no matter what they do.

That said, I actually have a very different, more logistical question: How does this forum handle spoilers? Do you guys openly talk about anything that goes beyond US-aired content? Are things like future episode promos, stills and behind-the-scenes photos/videos and speculation based on that openly discussed here without spoiler tags?

Edited January 15 by TeeJay

[possibilities]

I watch because I started out interested in the show and  I did like it at first, but over time have gotten more and more disgusted with it. I am dangling by a thread as to whether to keep watching.

I try to monitor media about disabled people, because it affects my community in real life, and speaking up from an insider's view about what disability is really like is something that we (not just me but others in disability word) find makes a difference in how we are perceived by others, when they have no actual real world experience to compare to what the media portrays. It matters to me, so I watch. Not everything in life has to be pleasant. Some things are chores but you do them anyway.

That said, I do sometimes enjoy aspects of the show. And, perhaps stupidly, I do keep finding myself giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping they will change. When they first paralyzed Lim, I was hoping they would do a good job. I remain, despite all odds, bizarrely an optimist. Sometimes showrunners do respond to feedback or valid criticism. I've seen it happen. People are capable of change, when presented with new info or perspectives they haven't considered. But there's value in speaking up whether or not that happens. Maybe nothing changes. But nothing gets accomplished by NOT speaking up, either. 

Another thing is that when I see something that portrays people like me in a harmful way, I always feel relieved when somebody else comes along and refutes it. That's part of being an ally and caring about the world, and I've had people specifically ask me to act as an ally to them by doing that when I see something that would hurt them. It makes it easier to get past it and enjoy whatever good is there, when there are people noticing and taking a larger view.

I used to enjoy the show more. But over time they have consistently removed elements I liked or characters I was interested in. But it still has its moments. I liked it when Lea told Glassman to stop infantilizing Shaun. I liked it when they cast an actually paralyzed actor for Lim's  boyfriend, and I liked the way they've written him so far (the proposal after a short time was ridiculous, but I handwaved it, so you see I am able to tolerate some dramatic license). Sometimes I think the show is provocative in a good way, like how everyone was so upset about harvesting the pig organ, and when they show people reacting in complex ways to complicated situations, like with the recent story about a paternity question and the need to face up to it in order to save a life.

Just like in real life, sometimes there are pros and cons, and mixed feelings about various people, places, or things. It seems to me that you want this forum to be reflective of your own feelings about the show, and I get that. Validation is always fun. And you are posting about your frustration with that, just like some of us are posting about our frustrations with the show. But there are always going to be a diversity of opinions and reactions to situations. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to react the same way or think the same thoughts, and I won't ask you to justify your presence here so it would be great if you stop asking those of use who don't think the same thoughts as you to justify our presence.

Edited January 15 by possibilities
fix typos

[circumvent]

5 hours ago, TeeJay said:

I dunno, this sounds like you think Shaun's ASD needs to be portrayed in this very specific way that you think is representative of autism, and that the show constantly gets it wrong because it doesn't meet your expectation of ASD. Who's to say that people like Shaun don't exist in the real world?

This conversation is getting repetitive so this is the last I say what I would like to see: a better representation of autism based on my experience of 21 years living, 24/7, 365 with autistic people with different support needs. If that's not your experience, or if you cannot understand this, that's fine. I am not trying to change your mind, I was answering your questions and clarifying things that I thought would didn't understand well. 

And no, someone like Shaun, an autistic that has huge uncontrollable meltdowns and destroy things does not exist as a surgeon. If by any miracle, struck of luck or other very unique situation someone like him were able to finish med school, and go through internship, all with very little support (since his only friend is his mentor and before Lea he was a loner), he would be fired from the hospital he works in after the first meltdown. People like him do exist, but they are in other professions, things that accommodate their needs better. I would be able to suspend my disbelief, as you said, if the writers had created characters that are his support system, people he would go to and show him learning the coping mechanisms, then applying them while at work. We don't have a backstory for him, other than the basic trauma and that he was in foster care. Nothing about his college  experience, for example. They wanted a quirky, genius autistic doctor so they threw all the stereotypical autistic traits on him. That's damaging to autistic people

5 hours ago, TeeJay said:

I don't know what your ultimate wish is here. What I'm hearing is that you want a show that portrays the professional and personal journey of an autistic protagonist trying to fit into a neurotypical world, yet you want him to be able to perfectly mask at all times, to perfectly cope with any stressful situation because autisitc people need to learn that skill in a professional world, and you want him to always be at the top of his game and never melt down, fail or rub people the wrong way, because when he does, that's pity porn or inspiration porn or infantilisation. Honestly, it kinda sounds like that show could never do right by you, no matter what they do.

You are completely distorting what I have been saying. It is the opposite, I don't want his to mask or fit in the neurotypical word as in pretending he doesn't have any stress. I want the writers to portray autism better. I want them to show that, because the autistic brain processes situations in a different way, he should have either a support team, a disabled friend, or a real background, and consequence, to his outbursts when they are completely unacceptable with other people. If another doctor had gone and destroyed medication, they would have been fired. Shaun is still there, no consequences. Since I said numerous times that in reality someone like him would not be in the position he is, the writers could at least follow up on that mess, give context, change something, anything. He is who he is, but that does not exempt him from consequences.

I don't know if the show will "do right" by me. I am not important, lol. If you paid attention to what I wrote, you know that I saw interesting things in the first seasons. But I do think they have not grown the character, and have made the perception of autism worse in some situations. 

Like I said, this discussion is repetitive. You enjoy the show. Like you said, they are doing really well. I don't enjoy it as I hoped and I think that, if they ever thought about elevating autistic voices, they are doing more harm than good at this point. My opinion and I will not try to explain the whys anymore. Just don't assume that I am saying something unless I actually said the thing

[Annber03]

For my part, I continue to watch this show 'cause I like the cast/characters and I'm not one who tends to drop shows in general, and when I post comments I tend to focus on the positive, partly because a site like this is often the only place I have to talk about my favorite shows with people, so I want to focus on the positive, and partly because I think other people are far better at expressing critiques of a show than I tend to be. I can find things to critique about this show, too, but I think other people vocalize those critiques better than I could, so I leave it to them to do so. 

The autism/disability portrayals on this show, and the nuances of such topics, are a perfect example of that. I don't have personal experience with those topics, so I don't feel comfortable speaking on something I'm not very knowledgeable about. But I do appreciate hearing from those who are, because it does help enhance and allow me to better understand what the show is doing, rightly or wrongly, with the portrayals, and I have learned some worthwhile things along the way. Same applies to people who comment on how the average medical aspects of the show do or don't reflect how real life hospitals work. There's room for all kinds of discussion here, positive and negative.