Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[Hookian]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

I don't care whatever happened between Hook, Tink, or Regina in the past because the show doesn't give a shit about properly exploring character details like that, so those plot points will forever remain a mystery to be debated amongst the fandom. But if some fans truly want evidence that Hook and Regina didn't bang, you can go ahead and base your head canon off of the writers' head canon:

I really don't care. Hook was a playboy back then. He slept with many woman(probably Tink/Regina meaningless ONS), and had many a man's wife. The past is in the past, time to let it go.

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It's generally not a good idea to ever encourage people to photograph themselves being evil.

Yeah, I could see how that could go very badly. But I'm constantly amazed with how popular evil is among fans. I was on a panel about Harry Potter yesterday at a convention, and when the moderator asked who would be in which houses, more than half the room enthusiastically chose Slytherin. I'm a little baffled that a group of racist bullies is that popular, and probably among a group of people who spend a lot of time complaining about racism and bullying online. If someone actually treated fans the way Regina treats people, they'd be outraged. Encouraging fans to do evil things and post the evidence online is such a bad idea, and encouraging the worst in people.

[Katherine]

I'm starting to feel a little exasperated with how much fans seem to gravitate toward evil characters, even when the character isn't particularly well-written (like Regina, IMO). It's definitely a big issue in the Harry Potter fandom. Snape is the most popular character, and while I can completely understand why some people find him compelling and interesting, what I don't get is when people start justifying his actions (like bullying an 11 year old). It's one thing to enjoy or even relate to a morally questionable character; it's another to argue that that character deserves all the best things. And that's where the Once fandom sometimes loses me.

And I agree about Harry Potter fans identifying with Slytherin house. I see a lot of fans talking about how Slytherins have a lot of great qualities and they shouldn't be written off as one-note evil characters. The argument seems to be that people are complex and layered...which is fair enough, but the fact is that Slytherin house was founded by and named after a racist character, and it attracted other really racist characters, so why are young readers so quick to defend and identify with it? It reminds me of fans who defend the character of Regina. A lot of them seem to identify with Regina's layers and her struggle to be good, which again is fair enough, but why does that need to translate to justifying her actions? 

[daxx]

Just like the whole Kylo Ren craze the SW fandom is currently in. I despise that character for ripping apart my OTP. Not really here for the Kylo love fest.

[kitticup]

Here is a link to the Tink Hook question: Colin on TinkerHook 

 

here is a link to the Hook Queen Question:Colin on HQ

I found this all on mindyourhelm tumbler site.  It is a CS site.

The he best clip is the one where Colin talks about a deleted scene.  In Tallahassee Emma slips and Hook catches her with his hook.  Unfortunately, Colin missed judged his mark and conked jen's double in the head with his metal hook.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm pretty sure the writers already know what a faction of the fandom wants. They get bullied by them every day over this.

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, Fable said:

And this is why we have Donald Drumpf!   

Except the weird thing is that most of the people I see online going on about justifying the villains and wanting to be Slytherins are very vocal social justice warrior types who post anti-Trump memes. That's why there's such a disconnect -- the characters a lot of fans champion are the exact opposite of what they say they believe in. If racism, arrogance, and bullying are bad in real life, why cheer for it in fiction?

[maryle]

I am curious I was not really looking at the Paris Con because it seems to be a Con every week end now. 

But I looked at Twitter this morning and all I saw was that Lana will ask for SQ for the fans.

I mean, I hope that not truth because season 6 will be very long in the fandom if some fans believe that Lana will speak for SQ.

I learned that the hand kiss (CS) in the elevator was not in the script. 

[Selina K]

49 minutes ago, Hookian said:

This reinforces my belief that Lana is all about fan service.  It's in line with telling people she reads SQ fan fiction.  She can tell the writers, but please, it isn't happening and she knows that, but she gets more fan love from the people who think she is their advocate.  Can she also make a note to let the writers know "people" want Regina to actually apologize to Snow and Emma for fucking up 28 years of their lives?  A note to let the writers know "people" would like to see Regina own that she raped and murdered Graham?

I feel like Jen would leave the show before she acted out that storyline at this point, not because of any anti-LGBTQ feelings on her part, but because the reason it would be written would be fan service to fans who have been the actual worst to her.

[Hookian]

15 minutes ago, maryle said:

I am curious I was not really looking at the Paris Con because it seems to be a Con every week end now. 

But I looked at Twitter this morning and all I saw was that Lana will ask for SQ for the fans.

I mean, I hope that not truth because season 6 will be very long in the fandom if some fans believe that Lana will speak for SQ.

I learned that the hand kiss (CS) in the elevator was not in the script. 

It's not gonna happen, even Lana knows that. She even said she knows what Regina's happy ending is but doesn't want to say it because the people in the room would probably bitch and whine and she's all about baiting and catering to the only fans that give a fuck about her and are her income. She's pathetic and desperate for attention. 

An attention seeking bitch, simple as that.

[orza]

Lana is no different from other actors who go to conventions, give interviews and in general promote their careers as they see fit. That doesn't make her a bitch, not in the least. It is unkind and uncalled for to denigrate actors (and writers) who are just doing their job and trying to make a living.

As someone wrote recently in this thread, I believe, an actor working on his career is really running a small business and the product is the actor himself. This product needs constant promotion and marketing to be successful in the long term. Whether one chooses to play to the convention crowds and tease and cater to one's most ardent fans or give interviews and hold forth in a touchy-feely pseudo-intellectual tone about one's art, both are legitimate and time-honored ways to promote one's career.

Edited June 19, 2016 by orza

[RadioGirl27]

What Lana said today is going to have repercussions for Adam, Eddy and, probably, Jennifer. Because when SQ doesn't happen it's not Lana the one who is going to be insulted and harassed, but Adam, Eddy and Jennifer.

I don't like the way Lana is handling her career. In the long run, this way she has of seeking the attention of the fans, a way that includes throwing  her collegues under the bus constantly, is going to have a negative impact in her career.

[Curio]

Even though the OUAT actors and writers know the ship names Captain Swan, Rumbelle, and Swan Queen, they don't actually know the every-day fandom dynamics like we do because they don't have time to scroll through Tumblr, Twitter, or discussion forums on a daily basis. They have a general understanding that certain fans don't get along, and they make general statements like, "I wish everyone could just get along!" But they genuinely don't get that a lot of their words and Internet posts influence the way the fandom treats each other.

Interacting so intimately with the fandom is a new experience for most of the actors and writers on this show, and it takes years of experience being in a fandom to fully realize how it operates. Heck, Colin didn't even know what the term "shipping" meant when he joined in Season 2, and now he's attending conventions and joking around about Tink and Hook. That's huge progress.

I attended a panel at the ATX Television Festival last weekend where the topic was specifically about how to deal with social media and online fandoms. The panelists consisted of television writers, show runners, and actors. All of them (or the ones who responded) essentially said that even though they're required to have a Twitter presence because of marketing, they don't have time to actually read everything Tweeted at them, and they all agreed they have to ignore most of the messages because, at the end of the day, what's written in the script is what matters. One of the writers for The 100 (not Jason Rothenberg), made a great comment that I wish Adam Horowitz would follow. A fan asked something along the lines of whether or not the writers on the panel get overwhelmed with some of the Twitter hate or if it influences their writing, and the response was basically (paraphrasing here), "You know what? You don't have to be on Twitter if it bothers you so much. If you're arguing with a 14-year-old on Twitter, maybe that's a sign you should stop."

Basically, even though the writers and actors may interact with the fans online or at a convention, the panelists all agreed that it's their job to not let the fans influence their writing or performances. I forget who mentioned it, but someone relayed a story about how they started thinking too much about what someone on Twitter wrote, and the fact that they were thinking about it meant it might influence their performance, which means they've failed at their job. I can't help but think about how it seems like Adam and Lana allow the fans to have more power than they should.

[orza]

Actors are working when they go to conventions. They get paid very well for their appearance. It's a business arrangement. Their job is to interact and entertain the crowd. Most people have the perspective and common sense to know that everything is all in fun there and don't take it too seriously. Actors can talk to the writers about whatever they want. There's nothing wrong with that. But unless the actor is someone like Mark Harmon the writers are still gonna write the show the network wants.

No one is being thrown under the bus and what Lana says at conventions will have no negative impact on the show or her career. The loud overinvested fans of every stripe are in reality miniscule groups out there on the fringe who vastly overestimate their own numbers and importance.

Edited June 19, 2016 by orza

[maryle]

Well Thank HookIan for the answer and I read about the situation here and on tumblr.

I think it is a subtely way of having both way she play with world.

But, I try to give Lana the benefice of the doubt but I do not know really how I feel about her.

It is just a little much for me. What she said could be view so many way by her fans. I am not sure how I will feel with I was Colin, Sean or Jen who will be view more like a real reason that SQ is not happening and could be receive more hate if Lana go on with that strategic move.

[Joanh23]

I was at the Paris con last year and I can see how the actors would get caught up in the fan excitement and say things in the heat of the moment. And I'm thinking that Lana has never been told to NOT talk about SwanQueen with the fans, so while I don't like what she said, she really is only pandering to a very small (but vocal) sub group of fans.

Also Jmo rarely posts directly on Twitter anymore plus the fact that she's busy filming her first film I'd say she'll be far to busy to pay attention to any silly OUAT fandom drama.

[Curio]

Okay, the Paris Con wasn't completely devoid of new and interesting factoids: Colin described a scene where Emma lost her balance on the beanstalk and he had to catch her with his hook. He described this as if it aired and everyone knew what he was talking about, but this must be a deleted scene. I wish it did make it to air though, because all I kept thinking about when that episode first aired was how they made climbing the beanstalk look way too easy. They should have been struggling to keep balance more (the guy has one hand for crying out loud), the wind should have been more dangerous, and Hook saving Emma's life on the beanstalk would have really made Emma's decision to ditch him at the end of the episode a lot more impactful. (Yet again, Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville is more interesting than the actual show...) And saving her with the iconic "evil" object she was reluctant to give back to him before they started the climb would have been poignant and kind of symbolic of who his character is. 

I question this show's editing way too often.

[Camera One]

If Lana could write the last scene for Regina, she would want Regina to have peace.  I wonder what the reaction would be if she said she wanted Regina to have a heroic death to make up for all the pain she caused everyone.

[sharky]

I always thought that the cuff that helped them to climb would alleviate such issues as holding on or the wind or whatever. And that episode was so full of great scenes between Hook and Emma that I don't mind them cutting one like that. It's still quite interesting. And yes, as someone upthread said, it would've been even more interesting if fans asked good questions instead of some of the "dance monkey dance" type stuff.

As for Lana, I'm sorry, but I can't make excuses for that. She knows what's going on in the fandom. She may not be reading all the tweets that come her way, but she reads Adam's feed. She's mentioned conversations she had with JMo about SQ things. Hell, she even got them matching Swan Queen sweaters. She knows her fans. So to me, saying she is going to talk to the writers about SQ is just queer baiting and I don't understand how her fans don't see through that. And that's on top of the fact that Sean and Colin were at the convention too. "Oh yea, the love of my life. Whatever. They killed him off. I'll talk to the writers about breaking up the most popular ship that's represented by actual fans who are actually in the audience in front of me and have the writers change that." This wasn't a SQ convention.

And finally, as for liking the bad guys, I get it. It's the same reason that fans love Loki. It's why fans read Draco can be good fanfics. There's a messiah complex about being able to save the bad boys or see the good in the bad. I've dated a few guys who I thought I could save and make better. They just needed me to become a better person! Let's just say I didn't marry any of those morons and I was smart enough to get out when I could. It's well intentioned, but the execution is questionable.

[Curio]

14 minutes ago, sharky said:

She knows her fans. So to me, saying she is going to talk to the writers about SQ is just queer baiting and I don't understand how her fans don't see through that.

I understand that she wants to make her fans happy, and she knows how important an event like meeting their favorite actor at a convention might be the highlight of their lives, but giving false hope about a fanon ship seems a bit disingenuous. Lana has been on the record saying that she knows the writers aren't going in that direction and she sees Emma and Regina more like sisters, so when she makes comments like that at a convention, it comes off looking fake. Saying she'll go talk to the writers about SQ is kind of like telling a child, "Maybe we'll get that toy next time we're at this store...which will be never." Or she'll go "talk to the writers" about Emma and Regina sharing more scenes together, but not in the way that fandom wants.

Everyone involved with the show is just going to beat around the bush until the show gets cancelled and A&E will say, "Sorry, this was our original vision and the story we wanted to tell. We appreciate that our fans are so creative and so passionate, and we encourage you to keep telling your own stories amongst yourselves. But what aired on TV is our story." And then a few years after the show has ended, maybe we'll finally get an actor or writer to break and they'll tell someone the unedited version of what the attitude was really like behind-the-scenes.

[Camera One]

I can see them throwing SQ a bone in the final season with an alternate reality episode where Regina and Emma live together with Henry, and then they will throw some other wacky combos like Charming and Belle are together, Hook is with Zelena, and Snow and Rumple (she's corrupted by him just like Regina was), etc.  

[KingOfHearts]

I started imagining Storybrooke citizens shipping couples and Regina stumbling upon some Swan Queen fanfiction. That would be both sad and hilarious at the same time.

[Curio]

Some shows can pull off doing meta episodes and fanfiction like Supernatural, but the closest I ever want to get to a meta-episode for OUAT is the Season 4 finale. The show is already way too complicated and stumbling over its own canon, they don't need to break the fourth wall any more than they have to.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Call the characters mean names, but let's leave the real-life actors out of the name-calling.

Agree. Let's remain respectful of the actors.

3 hours ago, Curio said:

I forget who mentioned it, but someone relayed a story about how they started thinking too much about what someone on Twitter wrote, and the fact that they were thinking about it meant it might influence their performance, which means they've failed at their job. I can't help but think about how it seems like Adam and Lana allow the fans to have more power than they should.

I completely agree. Even if a person has the strongest of wills, it's impossible not to be influenced by things we pay attention to a lot. One way or the other. One of the most famous instances is when Hermione's slapping Draco changed to her punching him from one book to the next becasue of the movie. 

15 minutes ago, sharky said:

As for Lana, I'm sorry, but I can't make excuses for that. She knows what's going on in the fandom. She may not be reading all the tweets that come her way, but she reads Adam's feed. She's mentioned conversations she had with JMo about SQ things. Hell, she even got them matching Swan Queen sweaters. She knows her fans. So to me, saying she is going to talk to the writers about SQ is just queer baiting and I don't understand how her fans don't see through that. And that's on top of the fact that Sean and Colin were at the convention too. "Oh yea, the love of my life. Whatever. They killed him off. I'll talk to the writers about breaking up the most popular ship that's represented by actual fans who are actually in the audience in front of me and have the writers change that." This wasn't a SQ convention.

I'm with you Sharky, In the earlier seasons, the cast and crew may not have knows the extent to which fandom can get unhinged, but in recent times, there have been many such instances. The most recent example is the sexual harassment rumor about Sean, which Lana herself clarified as false via twitter. She clearly panders to SQ, and doesn't truly care one whit about either them or CS fans. 

[Joanh23]

Well if I'm being mean of the 2 Regina romances on the show OQ & SQ, SQ fandom is by far the most vocal, plus at this stage it's the only romance that could possibly happen - so I guess that's why she's pandering to them.  

[Curio]

I'm really hoping Hyde Queen makes a huge splash in the fandom to offset that...

[MostlyC]

A friendly note here to remind people to stay on topic, and Be Respectful.  Especially Be Respectful to each other.  

If you have an issue, it is best to report it and not engage in with the poster.

Finally, there is this cool ignore feature:  If a poster is driving you nuts (like, so nuts that you want to cast a curse that will send everyone Neverneverland, or to a small town in Maine), then the ignore feature is for you!
 

[Hookian]

4 hours ago, Joanh23 said:

Well if I'm being mean of the 2 Regina romances on the show OQ & SQ, SQ fandom is by far the most vocal, plus at this stage it's the only romance that could possibly happen - so I guess that's why she's pandering to them.  

Could possibly happen? Really, so Emma doesn't have a say in this? You know the woman that went to hell and back for her true love. The true love couple that conquered the darkness and death itself to be together. The woman that has said "I love you" so many times this season and in the finale was the first time she said it without any kind of chaos or trouble, she said it just because. SQ has as big a chance of happening as Snow and Charming getting a divorce because Snow fell in love w/Grumpy .I think the writers would rather kill off Regina then make her bi and there's also one romance that is possible for her and that's DQ not to mention EQ could find herself attracted to Hyde.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Hookian

[Serena]

I think Joanh23 was simply saying SQ is the only one who could happen because they're both alive, and Emma hasn't been obliterated from reality or whatever happened to Robin. No one is arguing Emma doesn't get a say or that it will actually happen.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Serena

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, sharky said:

And finally, as for liking the bad guys, I get it. It's the same reason that fans love Loki. It's why fans read Draco can be good fanfics. There's a messiah complex about being able to save the bad boys or see the good in the bad. I've dated a few guys who I thought I could save and make better.

Draco and Snape seem to fall into that category, and on this show, maybe Rumple (saving him with love seems to be a lot of the appeal behind Rumbelle), but with the Slytherin thing, that's what the fans want to be. I think there's a lot of that going on with Regina, as well. They don't want to save her because they don't think she needs saving. They think she's in the right and justified in her actions because she's such a victim and those good guys are so awful. I don't get the impression that the Regina fans want her to change at all (reaction to what she's like with the Evil Queen removed -- assuming we can tell the difference -- should be interesting). And maybe they even want to be her, so they want her to have the things that they want.

[mjgchick]

Most Regina fans seem to blame either Snow or Emma for her suffering. Remember that article who blamed Emma for Regina raping Graham and killing him? After that I just all but stop caring what those fans think. It's one thing to have problematic favorites. I mean I love Hook and I appreciate that the show never wants us to forget that he's done awful things in his past and I accept them because he seems to be the only former villain who seems to want to change. I do also see that in the case of Ben on Star Wars. He killed his freaking father (same thing Regina, Rumple and Hook all did btw.) and all I hear is how he's a cinnamon roll. Whatever the hell that means. Or how Gossip Girl was with Chuck Bass and even Blair was a terrible person but she was probably the most popular person in the fandom. If only people accepted that their favs are horrible people they wouldn't have to reach so much and do gymnastics to prove their favorite is a good person. 

[Camera One]

We need a new dose of comic relief from Adam, and he delivered.

Quote

OQ_*EvilRegal*Hoodie ‏@x100pre_conLana  31m31 minutes ago
@OnceABC @AdamHorowitzLA You seek our feedback 2keep us happier but ignore our feelings & requests

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA
@x100pre_conLana I've done the opposite of ignore. I've done a lot of listening. I'm trying to hear as much feedback as possible.

OQ_*EvilRegal*Hoodie ‏@x100pre_conLana  28m28 minutes ago
@AdamHorowitzLA yes but what's the point if you're not doing anything about it

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA
@x100pre_conLana I really try not to comment on storylines in the future. But that doesn't preclude me from listening to viewer feedback

 

He thinks Twitter is a good source for feedback?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Joanh23]

5 hours ago, Serena said:

I think Joanh23 was simply saying SQ is the only one who could happen because they're both alive, and Emma hasn't been obliterated from reality or whatever happened to Robin. No one is arguing Emma doesn't get a say or that it will actually happen.

That is exactly what I meant Serena!  

[YaddaYadda]

About the whole Draco/Snape and other similar characters, I guess the writers give them just enough humanity for little fangirls/fan boys to believe and think they could be/should be redeemed, even though they really shouldn't be because they'really just not great people. Plus the word Mudblood is such a turn off and there's no coming back from that. 

Has anyone ever rooted for Jeffrey Baratheon, and Ramsay Bolton to get the girl, or live happily ever after. I don't know anyone who hasn't actively wanted them dead.

But hey, it's the people that make the house, and not the house that makes the people, even though the founder of said house was the HP books own version of Hitler, and the regime that it spawned under Voldemort's rule was it's own version of Nazi Germany, where a bunch of Slytherin were feeling all emboldened and powerful now that they could let the hate and contempt for others loose.

There's also the whole if he's hot, or good looking then he must be good, he/she is just some misunderstood soul. The Boston bomber wasn't some misunderstood dude. He's a murdering sociopath, same as now married Manson, because who in their right mind would ever wanna be associated with that?

Books, TV and movies actively seek to make the bad guys into heroes, and pushing so hard for them to be that, and maybe they should just reconsider.

[sharky]

I found the Fanlore entry for this phenomenon. Fanon Draco, or as I remembered it, Draco in leather pants. Big Name Fan Cassandra Clare wrote a Harry Potter fanfic from Draco's POV and it took off. From Fanlore: "A fanfic series authored/assembled by Cassandra Claire featured Draco as a clever, snarky Anti Hero and had him wear leather pants. While the story was somewhat justified by being from his skewed point of view, the characterization soon became standard Fanon even among people who weren't explicitly Draco fans."

Of course, this does make me wonder just how much of it has to do with fans and big name fans with clout somehow pushing something as fanon. You look at AO3, for example, and see the most popular pairing on there is SQ by exactly 1,000 fanfics (as of now) compared to the second pairing, which is Captain Swan. Of course, Emma and Regina had an entire year head start on Captain Hook, but it does make me wonder if that was a big factor. Would SQ be as big if Hook was there from the beginning? Would it have been able to gain traction if Captain Swan had been hinted at since the pilot?

I do wonder if Fanon Draco, which was created before the books were done, would've had more traction in today's fandom. Does having a television show or a book series with no completed ending yet cause fans to hope for fanon to become canon even though it obviously won't? And does having such easy access to actors and writers and creators give fans an extra sense of entitlement because they can actively interact with those powerful people?

[profdanglais]

Despite initially being shocked that people would find Draco Malfoy attractive or be proud to be in Slytherin, I think I've come around to both ideas. Slytherins are described (by the Sorting Hat??) as ambitious, competitive, and cunning. In many circumstances, those are not bad traits. They're practically requirements for success on Wall Street, for example. There is a tendency among some Slytherins towards snobbishness, bullying, and racism, but those are learned behaviours and they can be unlearned. By themselves, they aren't sufficient to prove that someone is irredeemable. Draco himself is shown to be more a product of unearned privilege and a domineering father than an actual bad guy. I get why that would appeal to some people. 

I've also just finished reading a really interesting article on the "authoritarian" personality type and its relation to the rise of Donald Trump (http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism). Basically, authoritarians are people who value order, hierarchies, rules, and stability and particularly in times of crisis they reject, sometimes violently, anything that they perceive as a threat to those things. This leads to people who are not necessarily inherently bigoted being overcome by their fears and supporting bigoted policies and leaders who promise to make all the bad things go away. It's pretty clear that Slytherins are authoritarians. Just as Trump has made it "acceptable" for people to voice fears that they used to have to keep to themselves, Slytherin House must have given HP readers with authoritarian traits a relatable identity for themselves. I get it. 

For the record, I do not support Trump or think bigotry is ever justified, but I do think these things are understandable. I'm a Ravenclaw, I like to analyse. 

There's also the issue of physical attractiveness and how it plays into perceptions of evil and redemption. Would people be so keen to redeem Draco if they didn't find Tom Felton attractive? The same question could be asked of Loki, of Kylo Ren, and also of our own Captain Hook. As much as I get irritated by people who believe that Hook is a terrible person who only gets to be with Emma because he's good looking, I think that the general point that we are more eager to redeem the beautiful people is a valid one. Hook's redemption has been handled well, IMO, but how much of my perceptions of him are based on what's actually been shown on screen and how much by my admitted weakness for dark haired, snarky men? It's not easy for people to sift through their own biases. 

I don't really watch Game of Thrones, but I've absorbed enough from the internet and half-paying attention when my husband watches it to see that both Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton were portrayed as pretty much pure psychopaths but also as physically unappealing, more through facial expressions than features, but still unmistakably. In order for characters to be universally detested, they can't just be evil, they also have to be physically repellent or somebody, somewhere, is going to try to find the good in them.  Perhaps that's a good thing, if we try to give people the benefit of as many doubts as possible. It does seem to cause a lot of fandom controversies, though. 

[Hookian]

3 hours ago, sharky said:

I found the Fanlore entry for this phenomenon. Fanon Draco, or as I remembered it, Draco in leather pants. Big Name Fan Cassandra Clare wrote a Harry Potter fanfic from Draco's POV and it took off. From Fanlore: "A fanfic series authored/assembled by Cassandra Claire featured Draco as a clever, snarky Anti Hero and had him wear leather pants. While the story was somewhat justified by being from his skewed point of view, the characterization soon became standard Fanon even among people who weren't explicitly Draco fans."

Of course, this does make me wonder just how much of it has to do with fans and big name fans with clout somehow pushing something as fanon. You look at AO3, for example, and see the most popular pairing on there is SQ by exactly 1,000 fanfics (as of now) compared to the second pairing, which is Captain Swan. Of course, Emma and Regina had an entire year head start on Captain Hook, but it does make me wonder if that was a big factor. Would SQ be as big if Hook was there from the beginning? Would it have been able to gain traction if Captain Swan had been hinted at since the pilot?

I do wonder if Fanon Draco, which was created before the books were done, would've had more traction in today's fandom. Does having a television show or a book series with no completed ending yet cause fans to hope for fanon to become canon even though it obviously won't? And does having such easy access to actors and writers and creators give fans an extra sense of entitlement because they can actively interact with those powerful people?

I say no, it wouldn't have gain traction. Cause one of the things the anti CS fans always like to say is Hook was not there since the beginning. They ignore the fact that A and E said they wanted him from the beginning but the rights didn't go through till S2 so they had to wait to get him on the show. I think if Hook was there from the beginning, it would be a whole new different thing.

But as soon as they got the rights they immediately started the CS storyline, so this has always been the plan. Now it may have gotten a little postponed after a couple episodes of build up because Colin broke his leg but as soon as Colin was better they immediately took off again.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Hookian

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Has anyone ever rooted for Jeffrey Baratheon, and Ramsay Bolton to get the girl, or live happily ever after. I don't know anyone who hasn't actively wanted them dead.

I wonder how much that has to do with the HBO effect, where their atrocities can be shown on screen in loving detail? With Regina, her evil has mostly been somewhat sanitized -- she throws fireballs, or we see the aftermath of her having ordered villages to be slaughtered. They didn't get into the real horror of what she was doing to Graham, just making it look like a sexy hook-up. Didn't they establish that they were having some kind of fling in Storybrooke before we got his backstory and learned that she ripped his heart out and ordered him to her bedchamber? So the imagery of them having a fling was established before we knew what was really going on. Even with Rumple, we saw the bloody apron but we didn't see him flaying Robin the way we saw Ramsay doing to Theon.

Would fan reaction to Regina have been different if we'd seen her actions in the kind of detail they can do on HBO, if it hadn't just been her looking fabulous and tossing around snarky lines? Or if we'd seen her doing passive-aggressive emotional abuse to Snow growing up? If we'd seen her burning Percival's village? The way it is, she looks good, gets the good lines, we get all of her pain in loving detail, while most of her evil has been either offscreen or magically sanitized (no dripping blood or burned corpses). In the Harry Potter world, Rowling has been baffled by the popularity of Draco, but on this show, they set Regina up to be sympathized with and liked.

[YaddaYadda]

Quote

I wonder how much that has to do with the HBO effect, where their atrocities can be shown on screen in loving detail?

Maybe for those who went into the show cold turkey. Before the TV series, there were the books though, and Joffrey and Ramsey are still two vile characters. I think it's the books that stopped the writers from woobifying those two because the writers had to stay true enough to the vision GRRM had for his characters. 

Regina is a lot of things that the show just doesn't acknowledge, chief among them, a rapist. Because that wasn't enough, they double-down on that with big sis. I still don't understand the decision on this one. But they probably stopped their thought process the way they started it, "wouldn't it be cool if...?"

And if the show doesn't acknowledge that, or sweeps it under the rug, then I don't see why the hardcore Regina fans, who will defend every indefensible action would do differently. Regina is the ultimate victim according to A&E even though she really isn't. Her victims bow to her, and accept her, and everything she did, so should the fans.

Sometimes this show makes me feel like Asterix and Obelix surrounded by the legions of Romans, trying to bring down the small village that isn't having it.

Edited June 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think it's the books that stopped the writers from woobifying those two because the writers had to stay true enough to the vision GRRM had for his characters. 

I still felt like Ramsay got a bit Gary Stu-ed in the series, like the writers thought he was really cool and badass. Still, the writers didn't even try to tilt the deck in Joffrey and Ramsay's favor, unlike Regina, where the writers wanted viewers to like and sympathize with her. If she were given similar treatment to Joffrey or Ramsay, and if the show were on HBO, there probably would be dripping blood from the heart ripping instead of just a glowy thing. When Regina had Graham sent to her bedchamber, we'd have seen her drop her clothes (because HBO), then whisper to his bloody heart, and then we'd see the look of horror on his face as he struggled to resist but then removed his clothes. There would have been a disturbing graphic sex scene (because HBO) in which she was enjoying herself while he had tears running down his face as he struggled to resist but was forced to go through with it. We might have had scenes in which he tried to kill himself while under her control but was forced not to. Instead, what they showed us was her seeming saucy as she ordered him to her chamber, but we didn't see what actually happened. In Storybrooke, he believed the relationship to be consensual, so it was played out kind of like "I hate you, but you're too hot to resist." That gives a very different impression of Regina's actions unless you're inclined to really think about what was actually going on with that, or if you bother to empathize with Graham enough to consider what he was going through. And that's going to lead to a very different response from viewers, who don't have to work too hard to block out the ugly parts of a character they like.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Regina is a lot of things that the show just doesn't acknowledge, chief among them, a rapist. Because that wasn't enough, they double-down on that with big sis. I still don't understand the decision on this one. But they probably stopped their thought process the way they started it, "wouldn't it be cool if...?"

And if the show doesn't acknowledge that, or sweeps it under the rug, then I don't see why the hardcore Regina fans, who will defend every indefensible action would do differently. Regina is the ultimate victim according to A&E even though she really isn't. Her victims bow to her, and accept her, and everything she did, so should the fans.

This is the main reason why Regina is so popular with some. She is portrayed as a victim by the writing, not just through her eyes, but through the eyes of other charatcers as well. No one is allowed to call her out, unless they are "dark". Her thoughts and motivations have been dwelt into the most by the Show. Many people admire those who are powerful. And Regina's power is somehow perceived as healthy self-confidence. It's in the biased writing.

Quote

Sometimes this show makes me feel like Asterix and Obelix surrounded by the legions of Romans, trying to bring down the small village that isn't having it.

Heh. And this forum is like the magic-potion brewed by Getafix. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

6 hours ago, profdanglais said:

There's also the issue of physical attractiveness and how it plays into perceptions of evil and redemption. Would people be so keen to redeem Draco if they didn't find Tom Felton attractive? The same question could be asked of Loki, of Kylo Ren, and also of our own Captain Hook. As much as I get irritated by people who believe that Hook is a terrible person who only gets to be with Emma because he's good looking, I think that the general point that we are more eager to redeem the beautiful people is a valid one.

I've noticed this argument usually gets applied more to male characters than to female characters in fandoms. There was a whole campaign the SQ fandom attempted to meme by replacing images of Colin O'Donoghue's Hook with Dustin Hoffman's more "aesthetically displeasing" Hook. Their argument was that OUAT's Hook wouldn't get away with the things he does on the show if he wasn't attractive, but the campaign obviously never caught on because the exact same argument could be used against Regina. But for some reason, it's apparently anti-feminist to think Regina wouldn't be as popular if she didn't have the aesthetics of Lana Parrilla's face because women are always expected to look good, while men are allowed to look ugly. While it's true that female body depictions in mainstream media still need a lot of improvement, the double standards and mental gymnastics it took to read some of those posts was nauseating.

[Shanna Marie]

20 minutes ago, Curio said:

I've noticed this argument usually gets applied more to male characters than to female characters in fandoms.

Mostly, I suspect that's because this argument is usually directed at females in fandom -- that idea that women are more likely to have their heads turned by a pretty face. But I think it's a weak argument because looks do matter, and if you change a person's looks, you change the character and the situation. In the real world, pretty people get away with more, so the characters are likely to react differently to attractive people. Looks also change the way people behave in a way that can reflect on their character. For example, Hook relies a lot on the fact that he's too pretty to kill. He bats the baby blues at people with the hope that they'll let him live, and he's not usually wrong. He's also not delusional because he really is gorgeous. If he looked like the Dustin Hoffman version, either he wouldn't pull that sort of thing or he'd come across as delusional or wrongly egotistical, and if he's coming across as vain without having good reason to be, then that says something about the kind of person he is, and so you should react differently to him. You can't just insert a totally different person who's a very different type into a situation and claim that someone's wrong for reacting differently to that totally different person.

I really don't know if fans give Regina more leeway because Lana is beautiful. I think a lot of it is that they've somehow found the perfect blend of victim and power that makes her appealing to identify with -- you can have superpowers while maintaining victim status and having everyone centering their lives around you. Bonus points for a snappy wardrobe in both Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest (I hate her, and I still want her Storybrooke clothes) and getting the sassy, quotable lines. She'd be a lot less popular if she actually faced consequences for her actions, if the outcome of her evil were made more obvious (see the dead bodies, orphaned children, let us get to know and care about the random extras she murders), and if people reacted realistically to her.

[Faemonic]

I agree with the Power/Persecution fantasy fulfillment for Snow White's Evil Queen. Heck, Bettelheim wrote on that before Regina Mills was conceived.

 

The underlying discomfort I understand of some Hook haters is that he's a cisgendered heterosexual man's power fantasy of toxic masculinity validated in how Hookers love him in spite of the alcoholism, physical violence, and shouting. And I am long past trying to remind such ardent haters that there are other differ perspectives (Captain Hook is genderqueer! It Is Written! Written in the Book of Canon-ier Than This Show!) that are equally valid that doesn't mean theirs aren't because that's closer to how fiction works actually. *cough* Captain Floor.

 

...Okay maybe I am not that long past. But if we do turn to Exhibit B and consider Hook a Villain Sue on par with Ramsay Bolton, Joffrey Lannister, Craster and Baelish combined then

 

...Umm, no? I mean someone other than me would possibly have at it. I might alternately appreciate and pity Hook's sexual confidence, and when other viewers don't take it as well then they're free to say and do what's right for them. L'il o me can't help but notice that he's disabled commoner normie among royals and sorcerers. As for the persecution fantasy aspect as opposed to actually unjust persecution...Captain Floor is comedy gold. Yeah I got nothing.

[Shanna Marie]

It just keeps coming back to the fact that however you want to view the story, the characters, and the relationships is cool, until/unless ...

• you attack or abuse people who have a different view
• you claim that merely having a different view is causing actual harm to yourself and/or others or to society in general
• you slander actors based on your interpretations of their characters and the relationships their characters are involved in and campaign to get them fired so their characters will be written off
• you apply your view of the characters to the actors who portray them and attack or idolize them accordingly, as though they are their characters
• you actively campaign for your view of the story/characters/relationships to be made canon in a way that becomes abusive or hateful (attacking writers/producers/actors for not agreeing with you, framing fans with different views for bad behavior and then tattling to the show creators, making broad claims about the damage you think other views cause)
• you try to force event organizers to change fan-oriented events to support your view and disregard other views
• you demand that writers, cast members, and journalists acknowledge your view when discussing the show, whether or not they share your views about the show they actually work on
• you blame fans with views you don't agree with about a fictional show for real-world tragedies, when there's no evidence that this show had anything at all to do with the tragedies

[Camera One]

@n0m_de_plum @lily65675 @SinfulSkittles @RegalChivalry that's not the translation. I sincerely hope where the show goes provides healing

Adam said that in response to people upset that Robin Hood died.  There has been quite a few shows where a favorite character of mine has been killed off, but no matter what the storyline, there isn't "healing" because the character is gone.  

[Souris]

He's used the word "healing" about 837 times with fans upset about Robin. I don't see how that will happen, either. It sounds like a rote response. If I were an OQ fans, I'd want to slug him.

[RedKeep]

I think he genuinely doesn't understand, or at least acts like he doesn't, that for most viewers characters aren't interchangable and there's no comfort to be found in character X being happy when you actually care more for character Y who was just royally screwed over by the writing. Ideally shows should make you care and tune in for more than 1-2 specific characters, but OUAT is so way past the point where people still watch this for the overall plot. And it still feels like it hasn't sunk in with him yet why people are so upset about how they wrote out Robin Hood. Dude, you obliterated his soul, erasing any chance for him to be reunited with his family in death or experiencing some sort of peace and closure in the after life, all while a mass-murderer like Cora got treated to a shortcut road to heaven. "Healing" is definitely the wrong word to use in that context and only serves to upset people even further.

[Jul 68]

Changing topics here. I just read this and wonder if it will extend to our beloved show.  Will Killian have to suddenly stop referring to Rumple as crocodile?

Disney Wipes Itself of Reptile Characters After Tragedy

[KingOfHearts]

Eh, I don't know. That seems to be related to Disney World itself, not necessarily all Disney media.