Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[stealinghome]

Hooker Queen

I have to say, that one might actually be the best ship name ever.

[Serena]

No, I was talking about names for Hook/Rumple on Tumblr the other day, and the following are actually the best Once ship names (in no particular order): Hook-o-dile, Crocohook (think crocoduck) and Golden Cane.

[InsertWordHere]

What about Captain 'Skin?

[sharky]

Captain 'Skin sounds like a good title for smutty fan fiction! But on the downside, it's too close to Captain Swan so....

I don't get Golden Cane. Do you mean Golden Hook? Because Golden Cane sounds like Mr. Gold is shipping himself. Again perfect title -- and plot! -- for smutty fanfic, but smutty fic with only Mr. Gold doesn't sound like my cup of Captain Swan tea.

(Holy crap, I'm snarky tonight. Don't mind me!)

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't get Golden Cane. Do you mean Golden Hook? Because Golden Cane sounds like Mr. Gold is shipping himself.

 

I was going with Rumplecrocskin, then I realized the same thing.

[retrograde]

I bet there is a fan fic out there where Imp Rumple hooks up with Mr Gold, though. 

 

Grumple? Gold Skin?

[sharky]

I bet there is a fan fic out there where Imp Rumple hooks up with Mr Gold, though.

Grumple? Gold Skin?

Goldfinger. You know, like the James Bond villain? Or does it sound too inappropriate? Edited September 15, 2014 by sharky

[Amelia]

Goldfinger. You know, like the James Bond villain? Or does it sound too inappropriate?

I just choked on my coffee.

[sharky]

Great post on tumblr by a fan on the show about Swan Queen and the reaction people had on Twitter towards the actors. I particularly liked this:

 

"These are human beings. People who work for 12+ hours a day, attend events, are hounded by interviewers and photographers, have lives of their own, who check Twitter in their DOWNTIME, a social media platform they use to specifically connect with fans. They want to talk to you but throwing accusations at them, saying they’re homophobic, supporting rape culture or violence against women, or asking them to not ignore the hundreds and thousands of fans they have or the fanbase of what is, at the end of the day, a FANON pairing and probably one they never even considered until fans brought it up, is unfair and will NOT get you the results you want.

 

"Think twice before you message an actor in any shape or form because you might just make things worse for yourself (and your shipmates)."

 

Anyways, for those of you on tumblr, go read the whole thing and you might want to like it too and give this fan some support over there.

[Dani-Ellie]

For the first time, I wish I had a Tumblr, just so I could give the poster props.

[Rumsy4]

Great post! It was tagged a submission in that post (someone submitted that content to the page). It perfectly lists everything that's wrong with the mean and crazy tweeters.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't understand how a woman dating the woman who spent a lifetime trying to kill her mother then kill her promotes inclusion or rights. She's her step-grandmother for Pete's sake. I don't get why of all the same-sex crackships on the show, Swan Queen is more important. It just boggles my mind that people use gay rights as an excuse for their ship, then accuse people who have no say in the matter of being homophobic when they don't get their way. It frustrates me that people are willing to politicize an issue and hurt others just to change something on a fictional TV show. It doesn't help anything - it just hurts people. They can promote inclusion without being rude about it, and it would help considerably if they went to the people who actually have power over it.

 

I'm not talking about all Swan Queen shippers btw - just the ones harassing cast and crew.

Edited September 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

 

I think Lana was trying to walk a line between fan-pandering but also trying to state that SQ is not a canon pairing.

 

Lana can do this because her crazy fans worship her. They're not going to bash her for that comment. Others can say the exact same thing she did and will get bashed and accused of homophobia. It's already freaking happened. Ginny when asked by SQ'ers pestering her over her opinion of SQ, (when she has nothing to do with SQ) said they're family and it'll be incestuous.  And she was accused of homophobia.

 

The writers and JMo have said SQ isn't canon and they were accused of being homophobic. Was there one single homophobic accusation or bashing thrown at Lana today for her interview? I bet none and instead she's getting her ass kissed like always. I will eat my hat if Lana got one single negative comment when she said SQ isn't happening or that they're family.

[Writing Wrongs]

I just saw this tweet from Jen:

 

 

@jenmorrisonlive people ruin your day with stupid hate comments because you don't deserve this at all, i love you

 

@PlRATEHOOK no idea what caused it and I don't want to know, but I love all the nice things the real fans are saying! Love you all too!

 

 

Oh Lord, I hope she doesn't get slammed for implying the haters aren't "real fans".

[Rumsy4]

At this point, people are going to be offended no matter what she says. Good for JMo!

[Stuffy]

I love that she played the "Real Fans" card. The rational swan queen fans will know she's not talking about them.

[sharky]

What the hell is going on with that HuffPo piece? I agree with the first part -- don't bully fans and actors who may show support for a ship you don't like -- but then she goes and bullies JMo? Ugh. This ship war seems to have been brewing out along the fringes for awhile now and most of us who are rational have just been ignoring it. But frankly, I'm glad this article came out because if anything, it's united those of us who are positive fans to finally say enough is enough. We all have our favorite ships, especially considering there are plenty of them on this show. I feel like rallying the fandom internet community behind some "We ship all ships!" campaign to show the actors and writers and yes, even Adam and Eddy, that our favorite ship is the Once Upon a Time ship.

[Dani-Ellie]

There were no words for how thrilled I was when I saw that tweet come through. I think it's fairly obvious that at this point, nothing is going to make that particular subset of fans happy. They've decided she's the enemy and that's how they're going to see her unless she caves to their pressure. (And, just like with a toddler needing to learn boundaries, caving to the pressure simply encourages the bad behavior because it shows them that if they scream and whine and harass enough, they'll get what they want.). Good for her.

 

But yes, I am definitely at the enough is enough point. I posted both that Tumblr post from earlier (giving props) and the HuffPo piece (saying WTF?) on my Twitter account, and a few of my friends who aren't in the fandom were horrified. In what world does that kind of treatment of any person become okay? And to have that kind of harassment happening over something as ridiculous as a fan-created relationship for two television characters is absurd. Yes, television is a medium that can bring about social change and the representation argument has merit, but at the end of the day, this is just a TV show and Jennifer Morrison is just doing her job on said TV show. It's certainly not worth bullying another human being over.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Stuffy]

On a positive note, Jennifer did a selfie for a selfie tweet exchange with a fan and she looks gorgeous. The fan was really pretty too.

@jenmorrisonlive: @stuunalee challenge accepted! ☺️ http://t.co/JrmNYCSJbN

Edited September 16, 2014 by Stuffy

[sharky]

Alright Once nerds. You all encouraged me in the fanfic thread to get a tumblr and now I have and look at the monster you've created! I'm seriously starting this #we ship all ships campaign. Who's with me? I'm athenascarlet over there. Follow me so I can follow you! Because I'm going to drown this damn fandom in every single flower they have in the Game of Thorns shop. :)

[maryle]

the article have really nice picture of FROzen and CS .

[Souris]

I came to the realization that these rabid SQ fans and Regina-stans, the ones who badger and tweet hate to Adam and JMo, are simply reflecting the characteristics of their beloved Regina that so many of us here find problematic: narcissism, rudeness, anger wildly out of proportion over perceived slights, lack of regret for bad behavior, and the belief that their wants and happiness are more important than anyone else's. She's their role model.

[Serena]

Here's something writer Kalinda Vasquez wrote in response to some SQ fans who were upsed because she tagged #CaptainSwan and #OutlawQueen in a tweet.

[Souris]

And, of course, it kicked off a nasty ship war in her feed. Sigh.

[Rumsy4]

Excellent response! This harassment of cast, crew, and writers to validate a fanon ship is getting out of proportion. People can ship what they want (I've shipped many a fanon ship), but trying to bully a ship into existence is not right. I do think that if Adam and Eddy brought Mulan back and either killed Phillip off, or cast a female Shang as a romantic match for her, it might be a wise move. But I hope to goodness abc or the show do not give in to harassment and bullying and start queerbaiting people with Swan Queen for the sake of pretending they are pro-representation. Soon, the actors are going to just stop tweeting. Meghan Ory quit twitter because she said she got tired of being harassed and bullied (ETA: looks like she's back). It's really sad.

As for the Starry Mag article, I do think it's a good idea to ignore it, and stop contributing to clicks. I made a comment, (and tweeted something positive to JMo), but I don't want to keep participating in the drama. It's messing with my fandom experience. I donno what effect e-mailing abc publicity about that "journalist" will have. They will probably chalk it all up as publicity. I donno.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

Excellent response! This harassment of cast, crew, and writers to validate a fanon ship is getting out of proportion. People can ship what they want (I've shipped many a fanon ship), but trying to bully a ship into existence is not right. I do think that if Adam and Eddy brought Mulan back and either killed Phillip off, or cast a female Shang as a romantic match for her, it might be a wise move. But I hope to goodness abc or the show do not give in to harassment and bullying and start queerbaiting people with Swan Queen for the sake of pretending they are pro-representation. Soon, the actors are going to just stop tweeting. Meghan Ory quit twitter because she said she got tired of being harassed and bullied. It's really sad.

Yeah, all this ship war has gotten really nasty. People can ship whatever they want (I don't get SwanQueen, but I don't get Rumbelle either, so to each their own). But really, the harassment needs to stop. This actors, writers and producers are really kind, so I don't think they deserve this treatment, even if you don't agree with them (and I don't agree with some of them most of the time).

Edited September 16, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Camera One]

I do think that if Adam and Eddy brought Mulan back and either killed Phillip off, or cast a female Shang as a romantic match for her, it might be a wise move.

If that faction doesn't care about Mulan and Aurora now, they're not going to start.  The Mulan and Aurora thing was handled so poorly (from what we could see, it was one-sided attraction), they should start anew and find a good love interest for Mulan.  But in all honesty, I don't think the writers have any interest in writing for a morally upright character such as Mulan.  

 

 

 

Here's something writer Kalinda Vasquez wrote in response to some SQ fans who were upsed because she tagged #CaptainSwan and #OutlawQueen in a tweet.

 

She didn't need to explain at all.  But in some ways, I think the Once writers should just stop hashtagging couples period.  

Edited September 16, 2014 by Camera One

[regularlyleaded]

I do think that if Adam and Eddy brought Mulan back and either killed Phillip off, or cast a female Shang as a romantic match for her, it might be a wise move.

 

I'm not sure this would do any good. Mostly because the squabbling about SwanQueen (IMO) has never been about representation. I think that's hardcore fans using what are actual societal issues to give their "ship" the stamp of societal righteousness because to be against their "ship" makes everyone else a homophobe, and no one wants to be labeled a homophobe or racist or anything of the like.

 

I think if people are really concerned about societal issues in television then take it to the networks. It's the network executives that decide what shows are picked up and it's they who could truly affect what is put on the airwaves. That's who people should be (politely) taking their concerns to. But browbeating and trying to hijack someone else's creative products because you don't like what you're seeing is IMO ridiculous and the behavior of spoiled, self-entitled brats who deserve no attention. No one is entitled to hijack someone else's creative product just because they don't like it. And as crappy as the writing on this show can be, it's still a creative product derived from show creator's creative vision. Not the "fans" visions, but the creators. And the outcome of the creators succumbing to the pressure to write a story they never envisioned in the first place is that they got labeled as "queerbaiting".

 

I for one think they were genuinely trying to be inclusive by writing Mulan as having romantic feelings for Aurora. But because it was never intended part of the original story the creators had in mind in the first place, only a small amount of focus was ever placed on it, and, of course, the result was they got slapped in the face. And that's what happens when someone is forced to alter their creative choices that were never a part of their original idea to service the whims of others -- you get a crap product and insults and no one comes out happy. No one wins with "design by committee" as any designer can tell you (or anyone who's had to work with managers or clients that don't know shit about how something works. If you're not familiar with design by committee, here's an amusing and spot-on youtube video, and The Oatmeal's hilarious comic that captures the madness of it all).

 

The way I see it, for better or worse Adam and Eddy were hired to tell a story that they had in mind and pitched to the network execs way back when. And while it's essentially a living creative work, we're seeing it unfold in realtime as it's written, it's still their creation and as such they should have control over the creative decisions. We may not like their choices *cough*Woegina*cough* and goodness knows there's a lot that is problematic on this show, but at the end of the day, it's their story to tell and their mistakes to make, not the "fans".

Edited September 16, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[angelwoody]

The way I see it, for better or worse Adam and Eddy were hired to tell a story that they had in mind and pitched to the network execs way back when. And while it's essentially a living creative work, we're seeing it unfold in realtime as it's written, it's still their creation and as such they should have control over the creative decisions. We may not like their choices *cough*Woegina*cough* and goodness knows there's a lot that is problematic on this show, but at the end of the day, it's their story to tell and their mistakes to make, not the "fans".

Amen, regularlyleaded!

 

I completely agree with everything you said, especially the part about "design by committee" and respecting the creative vision of the creators.  Even if their vision totally sucks, lol, it's their "baby" - not any of ours. 

 

The reasonable reaction to not liking a story line or show in it's entirety is to stop watching (and it is not unreasonable though I've never done it, to express to TPTB why you've decided to stop watching).  I've done that loads of times with shows I once loved.  Mid-way through last season, I "broke up" with The Vampire Diaries and How I Met Your Mother (and with HIMYM I'm glad I did or I would have smashed my TV at that finale), even though I had invested years in them.

 

TV shows can't be all things to all people and they'll just end up pissing everyone off if they try.  

[Shanna Marie]

TV shows can't be all things to all people and they'll just end up pissing everyone off if they try.

Wasn't there a fable about that? (Obviously not about TV, but about how you can't please all the people all the time.) If you cater to one group of vocal fans, you'll turn off another group of fans. Best to just write your own story and then let people decide for themselves whether or not they like it. And under no circumstances should anyone be abused for talking about what's actually going on in the show rather than what isn't happening. You can get mad that the show's not going in a direction that you would prefer, but it's silly to criticize the actors for talking about their characters' actual storylines on the show instead of talking about something that's not going to happen. That's as absurd as criticizing Jen for talking about Emma training to use her magic instead of talking about Emma's Jedi training.

 

It's funny, but in today's installment of the Star Trek: Deep Space 9 rewatch on tor.com, there's a mention of how that particular episode was written in response to some really vocal fans who seemed to have missed the memo that the villain was truly a villain. The writers were horrified that there was a very loud fanbase trying to rationalize and justify a character who was basically Hitler. The fact that the character was written with a lot of complexity and played by an actor who gave him a certain degree of charm seemed to have swayed a lot of viewers to his side (plus he seemed to get the typical "writes love letters to serial killers" demographic). So the writers wrote an episode basically centered around the idea of "Really, he really, truly is evil, see?" The critique was that the writers should have just ignored the fans instead of catering to them, even if the "catering" was to tell them how wrong they were. Though I have to say, I'd rather see that than have them suddenly start writing a Hitler-like character as a misunderstood bad boy (without actually changing him) because a lot of the fans fell in love with him. Either way, you don't get good quality when you're writing with fan response as a motivation.

[Rumsy4]

I agree and disagree with the idea that the Show is, and should be, solely Adam and Eddy's vision. TV does not work like that. Network executives, other writers in the team, all have creative inputs in varying degrees. The showrunners themselves need to be flexible (otherwise creativity is stifled). A lot depends on how the story is evolving, real-life issues like actor availability, actor chemistry, actor disagreements, fan-reception, etc.. If the creators are listening too closely to the fans, they can end up with Nikki and Paulo. If they remain too faithful to their original vision, the HIMYM finale is the result. 

 

ONCE is a show that, by its nature, has a revolving door of guest and secondary characters. Developing a romantic subplot for an already established gay/bi character like Mulan can be done in three to four episodes as a B- or a C-plot, and is not too much to ask. It's not like they have to create a brand new LGBT character. I mean, Adam and Eddy must have had some idea in mind when they hinted on-screen that Mulan was in love with Aurora. The actress became available again. Why not do something about it? Yeah--many of the vocal SQers are clearly not bent on LGBT representation and are merely trying to force their crackship on-screen, but that does not mean Adam and Eddy should just not have any LGBT pairing in the Show. 

[Camera One]

f you cater to one group of vocal fans, you'll turn off another group of fans. Best to just write your own story and then let people decide for themselves whether or not they like it.

 

The strategy of the show is the combine the two approaches.  They write their own story and then they tweet the various fan groups even if the writing will not have anything to do with them.  I almost laughed when I saw Adam tweeting Join us for Season 4!  #SwanFire.  Did they forget they sort of killed Neal off last season?  Sometimes, silence is golden.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

And under no circumstances should anyone be abused for talking about what's actually going on in the show rather than what isn't happening. You can get mad that the show's not going in a direction that you would prefer, but it's silly to criticize the actors for talking about their characters' actual storylines on the show instead of talking about something that's not going to happen. That's as absurd as criticizing Jen for talking about Emma training to use her magic instead of talking about Emma's Jedi training.

 

This is my problem. Subtext is not text. I don't care how much subtext someone thinks they see, everyone with eyes who actually watches this show saw Hook and Emma share a sweet and tender kiss in the finale. Viewers may like it or they may not, but at this point, Hook and Emma are canon, period, full stop. It is not "ignoring" a fanon pairing to post things regarding a canon one; fanon does not supersede canon. And if Jen truly is posting her pics as she's working with people, of course a good majority of them are going to have to do with Colin/Hook because I'm betting a good majority of Emma's upcoming material will have to do with Captain Swan. (And truthfully, her pictures haven't struck me as overly Captain Swan-y in the first place; I think it's simply a case of "even one is way too many" for some of these people.)

 

After the abuse that's been hurled her way, I have no idea why these same fans then expect her to go out of her way to make nice with them. There's a reason the saying "you catch more flies with honey" exists, and at this point, I'm hoping she's blocked the more intense offenders. A little bit of the Golden Rule would not go amiss here, either. Being loud and obnoxious and abusive is going to get them ignored; they then don't have a right to whine that they're being ignored, because frankly, would they want to respond to abuse like that?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[angelwoody]

I agree and disagree with the idea that the Show is, and should be, solely Adam and Eddy's vision. TV does not work like that. Network executives, other writers in the team, all have creative inputs in varying degrees. The showrunners themselves need to be flexible (otherwise creativity is stifled). A lot depends on how the story is evolving, real-life issues like actor availability, actor chemistry, actor disagreements, fan-reception, etc.. If the creators are listening too closely to the fans, they can end up with Nikki and Paulo. If they remain too faithful to their original vision, the HIMYM finale is the result.

I get what you're saying about the process involving more people than just the writers, I just think that fans should not expect any say in the process. Although, you make an excellent point with the HIMYM reference!

I think everyone has a wish list of things they'd like to see more of I terms of representation. I for one, wish American shows would use a wider array of actresses in terms of body type/ appearance. I watched Broadchurch and thought it was so refreshing to see Olivia Coleman (I think that was her name) in the female detective role. Then you look and see who is cast for the role in the US remake, and it's a typical she-looks-like-a-model actress. I'm not saying she's not a god actress, but I was just kind of like, "really?"

Edited September 16, 2014 by angelwoody

[regularlyleaded]

I agree and disagree with the idea that the Show is, and should be, solely Adam and Eddy's vision. TV does not work like that. Network executives, other writers in the team, all have creative inputs in varying degrees. The showrunners themselves need to be flexible (otherwise creativity is stifled).

Well, yes, I get that the TV show is a creative process that involves many people and many moving parts, but my point is that the the creative decision process should stay within that group of people. Not John Q. Public down the street. Creating the show is the job of the writers, directors, actors, etc. That's why they get paid, so let them do their job. We as an audience are then witness to the final product, and we can criticize or laud the product but that doesn't give us the right to force any decisions on the creative group if we don't like what we're seeing. 

 

ONCE is a show that, by its nature, has a revolving door of guest and secondary characters. Developing a romantic subplot for an already established gay/bi character like Mulan can be done in three to four episodes as a B- or a C-plot, and is not too much to ask.

Yes, IMO, I think it is. Because, generally, people aren't actually "asking", they are demanding and there's a difference. We can all wish and hope all we want, but it's not the fans place to demand or "ask" for anything because the writers, producers, directors, and actors don't owe the audience anything. And that goes for any fans "asking" the show for anything. I don't care if it's PETA wanting better representation for Pongo, or whatever. Certainly it behooves those involved in the creative process to create a story that people can connect with (because that's how you attract and hold viewers and cultivate a following for the show and stay on the air), but that doesn't mean they will or that they are even required to do so. The creative group behind the show is trying to tell a particular story that they have in mind, it's why they were hired, and if they acquiesce to every demand under the sun you get unfocused garbage. And frankly, this show is problematic as it is. I would rather see whatever story the show's creative team wanted to tell and judge it for what it is (either steaming pile of crap, beautiful art, neither, both or something in between) instead of laying witness to them writing unchecked fan-service. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

Well... if showrunners completely ignore fan-response, people are going to stop watching. When I said, "Is that too much to ask", I was using it as a commonly used expression meaning "is that so unreasonable to expect". I did not mean that I was actually asking the showrunners to make it happen. I'm not saying that fans should dictate plots or that we as viewers have the "right" to demand anything (nothing in my post suggests that idea).

 

But I am saying that showrunners can and do listen to audience reaction, and sometimes add or change things in response. For example, I wish Adam and Eddy would listen to fans asking for more kitchen-sink moments. They don't have to do it, but it would not hurt, especially as they did have that sort of thing in S1. It's only in subsequent seasons that they have moved away from giving us the so-called "boring" character moments. 

[Camera One]

For example, I wish Adam and Eddy would listen to fans asking for more kitchen-sink moments.

 

They did address that sentiment somewhat in their latest TV Guide interview, at least with happy couples.  Their response was "Really??!!"  And character moments will be provided

while they are being chased by snow monsters

.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

 

They did address that sentiment somewhat in their latest TV Guide interview,

 

I was actually thinking of that when I made my post. Adam and Eddy might do well to listen to fans in this instance, especially as they are actually capable of writing those kinds of scenes, and did write them in S1. I'm not asking or demanding, just wishing. In the same way, they wrote the subtext of Mulan's sexual orientation, and they must have had some plan for her future storyline. I'm not saying that they ought to develop a romantic sub-plot for Mulan. I'm just saying they can have more LGBT representation in the show if they wish, without having to pull something out of thin air. TV shows usually enter the disaster zone when they introduce something just for the sake of fan-service. And SQ would certainly fall under that category, because they have not had any such subtext within the show, and have also been clear in interviews that it was never their vision. But I disagree with the notion that showrunners should never listen to fans and stick to their vision with single-minded devotion. I just don't think it happens that way either. 

[Camera One]

I'm not asking or demanding, just wishing. In the same way, they wrote the subtext of Mulan's sexual orientation,

 

I wonder if that was partly due to fan input.  Maybe they read during 2A all the comments about the Mulan/Aurora chemistry, that prompted them to show Mulan having feelings for Aurora at the beginning of Season 3.   In the S2 opener, they seemed to be going towards a triangle where both Mulan and Aurora were in love with Philip.

 

Actually the whole Mulan/Aurora/Philip thing is just weird to me.  Did they have any intention of showing their backstory in 2B?  Did plans change?  Or were they just meant to pop up once in a while at random times?   In my mind, I can totally visualize a kid throwing a tantrum and tossing Sleeping Beauty and Mulan toys aside in favor of something else.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Camera One

[regularlyleaded]

But I am saying that showrunners can and do listen to audience reaction, and sometimes add or change things in response.

I see what you are saying Rumsy4, but I suppose my larger point was that the writers did add something because of the fan response and the fans ended up lambasting them for it. (namely Mulan falling for Aurora, because from the beginning of S2 the writers mentioned in interviews, IIRC, that Mulan had a thing for Philip) So, to me, it seems like a no win situation for the writers and everyone creatively involved, therefore IMO they should focus on the story they had in mind and were hired to write and stop writing to please everyone because it's simply not possible.

 

In the same way, they wrote the subtext of Mulan's sexual orientation, and they must have had some plan for her future storyline.

 

See, I don't think they did. I think they wrote that because they felt that this was a way that they could be inclusive, it was a way to say, "Yes, there are people of every orientation in the Enchanted Forest.", but it was never intended to go any further. Not because they didn't like it, but because Mulan and Aurora have never been part of the core cast and not part of the core story they wanted to tell. They're not Regina (or Snow, Emma, Rumple, Charming  or any of the core cast), so in their minds that's just not who the story is about and so nothing further was ever written about it. So it's not unreasonable to see why they didn't pursue the story. It was never meant to be a story.

 

I'd say we should agree to disagree, but I don't actually think we are disagreeing that much. Nevertheless, I shall now retire myself from the topic.

Edited September 17, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

 

I see what you are saying Rumsy4, but I suppose my larger point was that the writers did add something because of the fan response and the fans ended up lambasting them for it.

 

Meh... we can't be sure that it was solely added because of fan demand. And I disagree they got lambasted for it uniformly. But it's canon now. So, does it really matter where the original idea came from? They could run with it in the future if they wanted to. I guess what I'm saying is writers typically have an overall vision for their show, AND make up some aspects as they go along, and some of it ends up being driven by fan-response, among other things. For example, there's no way Frozen was planned from the start, as the movie did not exist, but Adam and Eddy felt that it can fit within the thematic universe of the show, and their creative vision for it.

 

 

Not because they didn't like it, but because Mulan and Aurora have never been part of the core cast and not part of the core story they wanted to tell.

 

That I do agree with.

 

 

I'd say we should agree to disagree, but I don't actually think we are disagreeing that much. But never the less, I shall now retire myself from the topic.

 

Sure, I agree to disagree as well. :-)

Edited September 17, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Jean]

Well the problem with listening to fans is, "which fans?" And do you want fans or general viewers?  The only way getting audience input used to be done was through focus groups and I know for a fact ABC and the networks still runs them, but nowhere near as often. They did a small one with Once back during S2 but I don't remember exactly when. I know this because my friend was given the survey. It wasn't Once specific but shows on ABC specific of which Once was included.

 

I think the problem is A&E does listen to fans (if it doesn't dramatically differ from their goals), usually the loudest ones and it's created part of the havoc. Because once the fans know you listen to them and bow down to their demands? Well it's on. People get louder, more organized, more crazy because they know it works. I bet they wouldn't have half the problems they were having if they weren't interacting so closely with fans and admitting that fans can impact things. That's probably why Once seems to have one of the craziest fandoms around.

[retrograde]

Beyond fan opinions, I think showrunners and network execs can and should also take on board what society is saying in general. Adam and Eddy may have started with a vision to write a story only about hetrosexual white characters, but if they notice that more and more people in society are calling for greater diversity on screen and examine some of their own blind spots and say, "Huh, maybe we could do some things differently," I have zero problems with them altering that vision.*

 

I often think of this piece by Geena Davis where she explains how easy it would be for screenwriters to make their movies and shows less sexist, just by switching some character's genders and specifying things like 50% of the background extras in a scene being women. A lot of this stuff is just unconscious and the default because it is The Way Things Have Always Been. I don't think A&E are such creative geniuses that they are above respectful criticism and suggestion when it comes to these kinds of issues, and I also don't think they're so uncreative that they couldn't write characters of different sexualities or races as well (or as poorly) as any other character on the show.

 

* Not that I believe they've had a very fully-fleshed out vision for this show since season one, anyway.

[stealinghome]

Retrograde, so much WORD. I was trying to articulate this same point, but you did it much more eloquently that I possibly could have.

[FabulousTater]

Well the problem with listening to fans is, "which fans?" And do you want fans or general viewers?  The only way getting audience input used to be done was through focus groups and I know for a fact ABC and the networks still runs them, but nowhere near as often. They did a small one with Once back during S2 but I don't remember exactly when. I know this because my friend was given the survey. It wasn't Once specific but shows on ABC specific of which Once was included.

IA, Jean.

 

Adam and Eddy may have started with a vision to write a story only about hetrosexual white characters, but if they notice that more and more people in society are calling for greater diversity on screen and examine some of their own blind spots

 

I see your point and yet what standard of measurement should they use to figure out what "society" is calling for? A vocal few can make it seem like the sky is falling, so what then? They should take a monthly poll to see if they can mix-in what ever society is supposedly demanding? I guess they could, but IMO, they would just be making problems for themselves (and I think it makes them sound more like wishy-washy "willing to move in whatever the direction the wind is blowing" politicians than storywriters). I think the show should be whatever the hell the creative team wants it to be (yes, even it means more Woegina, blech!), and if enough people in the audience like what they did, they'll watch and stick around. If not, if it's not acceptable to "society" for whatever reason it'll bomb and something else will takes it's place. One show doesn't have to be everything for every facet, culture, subculture, hither and thither aspect of society (especially when there are thousands if not millions of other shows out there on TV and on the net). Sometimes entertainment is just entertainment.

 

And really, this show is so hard-pressed to get the basics of storytelling right (you know, cohesive plots, focus, pacing, put that retcon down, writers. Down!) I'm just like, "Shit, let them get that right first then we can worry about everything else."

Edited September 17, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

I see your point and yet what standard of measurement should they use to figure out what "society" is calling for?

I don't think it's that hard to figure out that in this day and age, a little racial diversity, a little sexuality diversity, and a little gender equity are all things that are being called for by society.

[FabulousTater]

I don't think it's that obvious. Just because you hear something repeatedly in the media doesn't mean (well, first of all, that it's even true) or that it's important to society at large. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" not necessarily the bigger one. Importance of an issue based on solely on how frequently it appears in the media is an assumption, and most media outlets are so biased on way or another that most news is actually editorials. So I wouldn't say it's easy to figure it out. Plus, there are things that are important in one region of a country and not in another. What is important to 30% of population may not mean diddly-squat to the other 70% and vice-versa.

Edited September 17, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

That's probably why Once seems to have one of the craziest fandoms around.

 

Seriously, has anybody ever seen a more dysfunctional, war-torn fandom than Once in any of their other fandoms? I'm curious. I have been out of any fandom for seven years, but I was hardcore in the X-Files and Alias fandoms back in the day, and Lord knows there were disagreements aplenty, but they were NOTHING compared to Once. Of course, the X-Files fandom was mostly carried out on list-serves, Usenet and a few message boards, and Alias had message boards, but both were well before Twitter had reduced discourse to 140 characters. And there was no direct contact with writers or actors. There were certainly jerks in both fandoms, but this is a whole 'nother level. It staggers me on a daily basis.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Souris

[FabulousTater]

Seeing as how the show has pretty much canonized a mass murderer is it really any surprise that the show has attracted some fans that are off their rockers as well?

 

But seriously, I think it's possible most fandoms are equally nutty (fan is short for fanatic, after all :-) ). Maybe it's just the prevalence of social sharing sites that has made it so visible to the rest of us.

 

(Though based on my unscientific observations in other fandoms such as Doctor Who and Game of Thrones, I will say that OUAT fandom wins the nasty cray-cray cake easily, hands down. I've never personally seen so much gross in-fighting as I have in the OUAT fandom.)

[stealinghome]

I don't think it's that obvious. Just because you hear something repeatedly in the media doesn't mean (well, first of all, that it's even true) or that it's important to society at large.

So you wouldn't think it was a problem if literally 100% of TV shows and movies had heterosexual white men between 25 and 35 in all the roles; no non-white characters, no queer characters, and no women?

Edited September 17, 2014 by stealinghome