Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[Featherhat]

Joining in late but fandom and crackships/sub text and "queerbaiting" vs diversity is a pet peeve of mine.

 

So perhaps that's the bigger issue: how can you block out the morons especially in this day of digital media? Is it wrong that I want to shame this AE site and its readers for being a bunch of asses?

 

One of AE's issues is that a lot of their content comes from "subtext ships". They cover most of the main lesbian pairings on TV but a lot of their traffic comes from people squeeing over SQ or whatever Rizzoli/Isles are called etc etc, and the recaps and "Top 20 gayest OUAT moments" further fuel a rewriting of cannon that not only has nothing to do with the show, but wasn't really intended to have much to do with the actual show that didn't have the handful of gifs they could basically make fanfic out of for their audience. Then something that was often out of context in the first place escalates into attacking an actress for not immediately agreeing that her character, who has never shown the slightest interest in women in general or this particular woman must/should/will announce her devotion to biggest enemy.

 

I also have some ambivalent feelings about the biggest or best known lesbian/bi website on the internet devoting so much time and effort to subtext, but that's another rant.

 

I think the "passion" of certain crack ships has always been there, but until social media took off in a big way, it was usually confined to fandom. There were "ship wars" on fan message boards and LJs and blogs, but it only really got directly thrown at actors and writers at cons and meetups, the crazy getting flung at the actors on twitter got bought up in person with similar excruciating scenarios. It still does, seriously does anyone really think an actor wants to read you writing a character with their body having sex with someone of any gender or sexuality in public and be expected to respond positively or get vitriol flung at them?

[Serena]

I also have some ambivalent feelings about the biggest or best known lesbian/bi website on the internet devoting so much time and effort to subtext, but that's another rant.

Yes, apparently last year the poll was won by Rizzoli and Isles. Why not Calzona? Why not Steph and Lena Foster?

I'll be mean - I think it's because the actresses that play Callie and Arizona and Steph and Lena are not as conventionally attractive as Jen, Lana, and the R&I chicks. They're perfectly attractive women, but the most popular ships seems to be made up of "Hollywood beautiful" actresses, and all of them white or white-passing.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Serena

[FurryFury]

I don't think that's the reason. Lana's not white, too.

The real reason doesn't have to do with slash shipping, per se - it's the usual stuff, fans wanting a ship that's not already together. Sure, some of those who have already hooked up continue to have shippers, but a married couple with children will never have a fandom as vocal as two characters who spend time together and have some perceived subtext, but still aren't a couple. It's Shipping 101.

[myril]

Yes, apparently last year the poll was won by Rizzoli and Isles. Why not Calzona? Why not Steph and Lena Foster?

I'll be mean - I think it's because the actresses that play Callie and Arizona and Steph and Lena are not as conventionally attractive as Jen, Lana, and the R&I chicks. They're perfectly attractive women, but the most popular ships seems to be made up of "Hollywood beautiful" actresses, and all of them white or white-passing.

 

The poll is not about actual lesbian or bisexual pairings on TV, it is about Femslash. Femslash is fan fiction and still often featuring characters, who in the canon of the show, movie, book world are heterosexual, due to a lack of diversity. In the tournament on Afterellen they ruled out canon pairings, so Calzona, Lena and Stef or Doccubus weren't in the competition. Though possible, that even if it included canon pairings (there is some fan fiction written for those too) one of the non-canon could win. Just a  few years back the regular winners would have been likely Xena and Gabrielle, and that is a couple where it is still debated if they were canon or non-canon (as much as it was the most open subtext in the 90s, they never were outspoken canon on screen, even though actors by now say, the characters were in love). If you're looking for queer romances, couples on screen you don't have the luxury to choose from decades and large numbers of possible candidates from all kind of fictional genres. And there are other polls about the best lesbian/bisexual characters on TV for example, it's not all about the non-canon femslash pairings. Seeing the thankfully growing number of canon queer couples it might be nice to have a pool about them too, but in the past there was not much of a choice. I get it, that if being not a regular reader of the site and just looking at this one kind of tournament, which created a bit of buzz, one can get a limited impression on what the site is doing, but at least we should not look just at the result of the tournament but at what it was about.

 

You're right, though in the past few years representation of LGBTQI on screen has improved somewhat, in itself the minority is not represented as diverse as it is. There is a prevalence of white, middle-class to upper-class lipstick lesbians/bisexuals on screen, while the more masculine and butch are mostly if shown more of the threatening kind and rarely regular characters let alone protagonists, and people of color are even more invisible as queer people than they are in general on screen.That is a problem. It's an explanation but no excuse that we have only a small number of queer characters and that showing more diversity among a few is a challenge. As right is it, that a site like afterellen has been neither as representative as it should be.

 

Hollywood, well most of film and tv business has a huge representation problem anyway in more than one area, and especially if it comes to looks. "Hollywood beautiful" actresses are all over the screen, not just as the few queer characters that there are. We should question that in general, not just if it comes LGBTQI characters.

 

Afterellen was and is doing an important service for the visibility of lesbian/bisexual/queer women on and off screen. That doesn't mean the site is all great and free of flaws, there is always room for improvement. It is an interesting time for queer visibility, because finally there seem to be improvement, but many like me grew up with quite a different situation, I came of age in times where even subtext was a rarity. By now I am glad I can enjoy subtext as fun and not have to dig for it out of necessity that much anymore, but I think we struggle a bit with just seeing it as fun. Maybe it's for others as it is for me: Despite all increase in tolerance in society and slightly better representation in fiction, on screen, I still don't have the trust that this will last and get even better, I feel like it's something that could easily be taken away any minute. So guess we are pushy at times looking for more, we just would like to feel a little bit more sure. No excuse to go over the top, but if understanding the background more, it might give ideas, how to react in ways which would not make it explode even more.

 

I think the "passion" of certain crack ships has always been there, but until social media took off in a big way, it was usually confined to fandom. There were "ship wars" on fan message boards and LJs and blogs, but it only really got directly thrown at actors and writers at cons and meetups, the crazy getting flung at the actors on twitter got bought up in person with similar excruciating scenarios. It still does, seriously does anyone really think an actor wants to read you writing a character with their body having sex with someone of any gender or sexuality in public and be expected to respond positively or get vitriol flung at them?

 

You're right, some people might be crossing lines, but that is true for any kind of fan fiction. Many femslash story are though not explicit but of the romantic kind, while at the same time you can find explicit fan fiction with canon and straight pairings as well. This is no particular LGBTQI issue, so why bring it up only in that context?  Furthermore, not even all slash is written with queer background, the majority of fan fiction writers are as far as can be told women and that goes for writers of male slash fiction as well. The Sherlock fan fiction community has become kinda famous for that, letting social scientists speculate, that women act out in fantasy through a male character an active sexuality they would not deem fit for a female character. I don't mind much what people do with characters though, the characters are fictional, and what is created is fiction.

 

The problem I see is, that a small number of people see no difference between character and actor/actress, to some they're one and the same. So they attack the actor/actress for things the character has done, make the actor/actress responsible for what they think the character should do, love or hate the actor/actress like they love or hate the character. Fictional characters are met with real emotions by us, the audience, and it is not that easy to always draw the line between the character and the actor/actress, no one is all free of blurring that line once in a while. But for a few there are no lines at all. I've seen inappropriate straight but less queer bad behavior towards actresses and actors on Twitter, Tumblr, and not talking marriage proposals here. Some of that are obviously trolls in the narrow sense (morons liking to play games and have their twisted "fun" with people) but as well there are a few "fans" being fanatics and stalkers.

 

We shouldn't single out one ship, one faction of the fandom for over the top behavior. It looks sometimes like we do and I don't think that this is any helpful. We have different problems here, but we tend to mix them up.

 

• There are issues of diversity on the show, in the fandom and existing prejudices and dismissal - that is a general issue though with representation on screen and audience reactions.
• Another problem is that fandoms are a place where fanatics thrive well enough, people knowing no limits, and it's random what ship or character they leap at. The behavior of the fanatics is not about the character or the ship - and we shouldn't discuss it as character or shipping matter.
• And we have different views and expectations about the characters and stories on the show, views though not free of bias and images and ideas from society and culture around us, and yes, that does include some political issues, if we like it or not, and demands some diplomatic skills at times in discussions.

Edited August 30, 2014 by katusch

[Serena]

I don't think that's the reason. Lana's not white, too.

Yeah, that's why I said "white-passing".

I really have no explanation for why people have not embraced Sleeping Warrior - which features two Disney Princesses, what better representation could there be?) - other than the fact that Mulan isn't white passing and they can't perv on their boobs. If it really was all about representation, they should be clamoring for SW. If, instead, it's just about one ship they prefer because they think it has better chemistry, etc, then that's fair enough. No arguing with preference, but don't bring social justice issues into this.

 

"If Adam and Eddy don't add a queer couple on OUAT, that's problematic and heterosexist" = fair enough, I agree

"If Adam and Eddy don't add Swan Queen on OUAT, that's problematic and heterosexist" = NOPE

Edited August 30, 2014 by Serena

[FurryFury]

I really have no explanation for why people have not embraced Sleeping Warrior - which features two Disney Princesses, what better representation could there be?) - other than the fact that Mulan isn't white passing and they can't perv on their boobs. If it really was all about representation, they should be clamoring for SW. If, instead, it's just about one ship they prefer because they think it has better chemistry, etc, then that's fair enough. No arguing with preference, but don't bring social justice issues into this.

 

Aurora and Mulan had too little screen time and were not really developed as characters. Plus, they had canon pairings in their own movies, which probably matters, too. Regina and Emma are two of the lead three characters, they didn't have popular canon pairings in the beginning of the show (really, were Hook part of the show at the start, at least part of SQ fandom would probably happily ship CS - I suspect a big part of them don't ship only slash couples).

 

Femslash is fan fiction and still often featuring characters, who in the canon of the show, movie, book world are heterosexual, due to a lack of diversity.

 

Or maybe they're heterosexual because this is the story the writer wanted to tell. Not everything is about representation. 

Edited August 30, 2014 by FurryFury

[Dani-Ellie]

Or maybe they're heterosexual because this is the story the writer wanted to tell. Not everything is about representation.

 

Right. Or maybe the reason Regina and Emma aren't together is because Regina has tried to kill Emma multiple times. I'm all for representation and diversity, but at the same time, the pairing needs to make sense, storywise. Swan Queen makes me twitchy because I can't conceive of Emma's Happily Ever After being with someone who's spent pretty much half of the series trying to kill her.

 

The main problem I have with this latest dust-up isn't story or representation or social justice issues. It's the fact that a certain subset of fans have bestowed a responsibility on two actresses to change the direction of the story. The actresses have little to no say as to the direction of the story. They have bosses just like everyone else. The writers also have bosses just like everyone else. There's at least one instance I can think of off the top of my head where the writers wanted one thing and the network told them no (Charming dying in the pilot). Even if they ever considered floating the idea of Swan Queen past the suits at ABC, there's no guarantee ABC would let them do it.

 

Either way, Jen and Lana can't do a thing about the direction of the story. To be perfectly honest, they may not even feel Swan Queen is right for either of their characters. Considering Jen had issues with Neal for Emma because he never went back for her after the curse was broken, I can only imagine what she thinks of the idea of Emma being with someone who'd tried to have her killed as she was being born. But this subset of fans bestowed this responsibility on them to fight for these story changes when they can't fulfill this responsibility and never said they could. Then the fans get mad at them for not fulfilling the responsibility. That's not at all fair.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Serena]

Aurora and Mulan had too little screen time and were not really developed as characters. Plus, they had canon pairings in their own movies, which probably matters, too. Regina and Emma are two of the lead three characters, they didn't have popular canon pairings in the beginning of the show (really, were Hook part of the show at the start, at least part of SQ fandom would probably happily ship CS - I suspect a big part of them don't ship only slash couples).

 

But that's basically what I was saying. They want SQ because that's the ship they prefer, not because they just want queer representaton for the greater good. If they really wanted the best queer representation possible, they would be this passionate about A&E bringing Mulan and Aurora back and giving them a romantic storyline. 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Serena

[Featherhat]

This is no particular LGBTQI issue, so why bring it up only in that context?  Furthermore, not even all slash is written with queer background, the majority of fan fiction writers are as far as can be told women and that goes for writers of male slash fiction as well. The Sherlock fan fiction community has become kinda famous for that, letting social scientists speculate, that women act out in fantasy through a male character an active sexuality they would not deem fit for a female character. I don't mind much what people do with characters though, the characters are fictional, and what is created is fiction.

 

I bring it up in terms of LGBT because After Ellen and how/what they represent about queer representation on TV is a pet peeve of mine recently.As a bisexual women I like crack femslash (esp anyone in PLL) and I really get it, but I'd like it if they spent less time promoting ships that will never be canon and more on those that might or already are.  I'm well aware that a lot of slash writers are female, by a massive margin "two hot guys banging and no other females involved so I can woobie them" cliché and all that.

 

•Another problem is that fandoms are a place where fanatics thrive well enough, people knowing no limits, and it's random what ship or character they leap at. The behavior of the fanatics is not about the character or the ship - and we shouldn't discuss it as character or shipping matter.

 

Sure, but its those people, and those they get to follow them that start to drive this flat out nasty relationship between the show and its "fans".

 

All pairings have their crazies, I wasn't actually singling out SQ in that regard. The con video I was thinking of when I made the post was a Stargate con where some fans really made things really, really *awkward* for the actors though they tried to handle it gracefully and the same thing is happening today, not just at cons or appearances but on social media sometimes 24/7.

 

). Even if they ever considered floating the idea of Swan Queen past the suits at ABC, there's no guarantee ABC would let them do it.

 

I have no idea what ABC would say re SQ or OUAT specifically but ABC is one of the better networks for LGBT representation in general. They might veto a pairing and if a couple could kiss or not but maybe not any same sex couple.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Right. Or maybe the reason Regina and Emma aren't together is because Regina has tried to kill Emma multiple times.

 

Also, Swan Queen is incest-y. Emma would be dating her own step-grandmother. I don't think many of the shippers realize that.

 

 

But that's basically what I was saying. They want SQ because that's the ship they prefer, not because they just want queer representaton for the greater good. If they really wanted the best queer representation possible, they would be this passionate about A&E bringing Mulan and Aurora back and giving them a romantic storyline.

Totally agree on that, Serena.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I have no idea what ABC would say re SQ or OUAT specifically but ABC is one of the better networks for LGBT representation in general. They might veto a pairing and if a couple could kiss or not but maybe not any same sex couple.

 

I don't know what ABC would say, either. I was just saying, there's a chain of command, here, and Jen and Lana are not the ones at the top of that chain. Getting pissed at them and sending them vitriol for Swan Queen not happening is kind of akin to hurling vitriol at the cashier at McDonald's for the price of chicken sandwiches being too high.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[myril]

Or maybe they're heterosexual because this is the story the writer wanted to tell. Not everything is about representation. 

 

No, not everything is about representation, but there is a lack of diversity on screen. The point is, that queer people had to dig for subtext or their own fan fiction, there were hardly any characters on screen they could identify with at all, and numbers still are small. There are mostly only heterosexual characters as canon, and even more so dominantly heterosexual pairings. If you want to fantasize about queer relationships and limit that only to canon queer characters you don't have the luxury of a huge number of characters to choose from - and those might be characters you don't fancy. If fan fiction were just about what the writers of a show are making of their characters then we would have a lot less fan fiction written, just the few fan fiction stories filling in blanks left by writers (though on some show those holes to fill are larger than the show's story itself.).

 

What irks many is the impression, that SwanQueen shippers seem to be bound to push the show writers to bend to their fantasy - but not all SwanQueen shippers do that. They are not more or less bound to do that than others, there are not more fanatics among them as with other ships. The difference is, that there is a social and political issue coming up with it, and it is really hard to get away from that, because the show does lack diversity. It might be that many SwanQueen shippers primarily care about their preferred ship, but that doesn't mean, that them making accusations, that heteronormativity is one of the things standing against their preferred ship, has no point. At the moment we have exclusively heterosexual pairings and potential romances on the show and only one hinted at unanswered case of queer love, which some in the audience by the way are still even in denial of. There is not one remotely potential canon queer ship to talk about at the moment, is there?

 

Who do you think people in the OUaT fandom interested in queer relationships should ship and be better to push for to become canon?

 

If we talk about character issues speaking against a romance than I really don't get why OutlawQueen is not getting the same amount of moral storm concerning their favored pairing as SwanQueen is getting (think this forum is a bit of an exception in that). I can't see Regina, the Evil Queen in any deserved romance at this point and doubt I ever will, because is there anyone in the Enchanted Forest who didn't suffer to some degree by her doings? The problem is how they write Regina, the Evil Queen, no matter who you pair her up with (they should maybe try Hans, they might deserve each other), canon or non-canon. 

 

And I find a some of the RumBelle, SwanFire, CaptainSwan and now OutlawQueen shippers as unbearable and irrational in their arguments for their ships as some SwanQueen shippers, but the others  have the "luck" to ship a canon ship. And all by coincidence are heterosexual pairings - might mean nothing, but it gives me and others pause.

 

Maybe let's talk more about shipping craziness in this fandom concerning all ships, and not let it seem like it's mainly about SwanQueen. It shouldn't be, one way or the other.

Edited August 30, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

 

If we talk about character issues speaking against a romance than I really don't get why OutlawQueen is not getting the same amount of moral storm concerning their favored pairing as SwanQueen is getting

 

I've seen a lot of OQ'ers getting mad because their ship could be getting written off in S4 because of Marian. I haven't seen them harass cast members (I've seen them harass Adam a little bit on Twitter, but he baits them to), but I've seen them storming comment sections on social media with requests for Marian and Emma to die so Regina can get her love interest. I find character issues in both OQ and SQ, but they both have  strong bases pulling for them. It's all on perspective though. OUAT has several different fan bases with different opinions. It all depends on which one you're looking at.

 

 

So let's maybe talk more about shipping craziness in this fandom concerning all ships, and not let it seem like it's mainly about SwanQueen. It shouldn't be, one way or the other.

The difference between SwanQueen and the other ships in this discussion is that (some, not all) SwanQueen shippers were personally attacking cast members and crew recently. Believe me, there are other crazy shippers out there. I don't think any issue on the show, whether it be poor character writing or lack of diversity, would ever warrant personally attacking people in real life. The show is what it is, and if I feel strongly against what it does, I'll watch something else. These fanatics who personally attack because they don't like how it's handled are not forced to watch Once.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I can't see Regina, the Evil Queen in any deserved romance at this point and doubt I ever will, because is there anyone in the Enchanted Forest who didn't suffer to some degree by her doings?

 

Same here. I think the best candidate for a pairing for Regina is someone with whom Regina has had zero direct contact. Outlaw Queen started as such, but with the reveal that Regina was supposed to have executed Marian, it's become the same kind of problematic for me that Swan Queen is. Ultimately, my problem with both of these ships -- and any ship involving Regina with the characters we have on the show at this point -- is that they create a story where the victim falls for the abuser. Emma ends up falling for the woman who's spent a good season and a half of this show trying to kill her and Robin ends up falling for the woman who was supposed to have killed his wife and the mother of his child.

 

If the writers had resisted the urge to make everyone so connected, Robin could have been that person who'd had no direct contact with the Evil Queen, who only knew her as Regina and wasn't personally affected by her previous misdeeds. Yeah, he'd said his face was all over her wanted posters, but I imagine Robin Hood's face was on many a kingdom's wanted posters. That in and of itself wasn't an issue for me.

 

 

 

So let's maybe talk more about shipping craziness in this fandom concerning all ships, and not let it seem like it's mainly about SwanQueen. It shouldn't be, one way or the other.

 

I fully agree that there are fanatics in every ship and that not every Swan Queen fan is a fanatic. It's just that this discussion came about in response to the latest of many, many Swan Queen dust-ups, which is why the discussion seems centered around it. Had we had this thread back when Jen was in Monte Carlo, I'm sure we'd have been discussing the Swanfire fans who flipped out at her over her comments about feeling like Emma was betrayed by Neal's decision not to come back for her after the curse broke.

 

That said, it can be very hard for some to understand why this much drama happens over a non-canon ship. I'm one of those people. I understand that people ship for all kinds of reasons and that people ship what they feel represents them. At the same time, there are some pretty big canon obstacles to Swan Queen that have absolutely nothing to do with the characters' sexuality, like Regina's various and multiple crimes against Emma, crimes for which Regina has never even offered a token apology. Just as some people see Swan Queen as True Love, others see it as extremely unhealthy. (And I'm sure that can be said about every ship on this show, so it's not just Swan Queen, here, either.)

 

At the end of the day, the show is going to do what the show is going to do. There are certainly things I've had to accept that this show is just not going to do the way I'd like to have seen it done (Charming Family, anyone?). I have the right to complain about it, and I can certainly write my fic to give the characters what I wanted to see. What I don't have the right to do is harass Jen and Ginny and Josh via social media, telling them to make the story reflect the Charming Family direction I want, and then get mad at them when they don't deliver (because it's not within their power to deliver). That's my main issue with this subset of Swan Queen fandom.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FurryFury]

No, not everything is about representation, but there is a lack of diversity on screen. The point is, that queer people had to dig for subtext or their own fan fiction, there were hardly any characters on screen they could identify with at all, and numbers still are small. There are mostly only heterosexual characters as canon, and even more so dominantly heterosexual pairings.

 

The real problem is the lack of queer writers (and, hell, any writers who aren't straight white males). It's really hard to write about people you don't know about - personally, if I wrote (and I'd love to), my main protagonists would probably be mostly white and het, yes. Because it would simply take way too much time to learn about the LGBT culture from scratch, or about completely different ethnic backgrounds, especially if you aren't writing about social issues, but create a genre story with lots of escapism and wish fulfillment.

 

I do think that Aurora/Mulan was a nice way of creating a gay love story, but after resurrecting Philip, it couldn't have happened. Hell, with the way they've acknowledged the subtext, it would probably be better if they didn't do it at all. And the funniest thing is, there was zero point in resurrecting him! He didn't influence anything at all.

 

However, back to the fandom issues... Thing is, among slash shippers, there seem to exist two completely different subsets: one part legitimate queer fans who want romances between important characters they care about, second part just people who find the idea kinky (usually happens with male slash, but not unheard of with girls either) and sometimes just use the representation flag as a defense to make themselves look legit. They also often attack canon love interests, if they happen to be of an opposite gender.

[retrograde]

The real problem is the lack of queer writers (and, hell, any writers who aren't straight white males). It's really hard to write about people you don't know about - personally, if I wrote (and I'd love to), my main protagonists would probably be mostly white and het, yes. Because it would simply take way too much time to learn about the LGBT culture from scratch, or about completely different ethnic backgrounds, especially if you aren't writing about social issues, but create a genre story with lots of escapism and wish fulfillment.

The lack of queer writers might be an issue in general (I actually know nothing about the personal lives of most of the writers) but I think this is a massive cop-out. A love story is a love story is a love story, regardless of the characters' sexual or gender identity. "Learn about LGBT culture"? Because Mulan plans on going to Folsom Street? Sorry, no. These writers are perfectly capable of writing a gay relationship. Hell, Jane Espenson already co-writes an excellent show about a gay relationship. 

 

Does Hollywood need more diverse writers rooms? Undoubtedly. Does that give non-diverse writers rooms a free pass to only write about hetrosexual white people? Hell no. 

[FurryFury]

The lack of queer writers might be an issue in general (I actually know nothing about the personal lives of most of the writers) but I think this is a massive cop-out. A love story is a love story is a love story, regardless of the characters' sexual or gender identity. "Learn about LGBT culture"? Because Mulan plans on going to Folsom Street? Sorry, no. These writers are perfectly capable of writing a gay relationship. Hell, Jane Espenson already co-writes an excellent show about a gay relationship.

 

Jane Espenson isn't the showrunner, though. And I don't think that every writer ever, no matter their background and interest, has some kind of moral responsibility to research and write about any social issue in-depth and to represent all minorities. They should write about things that interest them, first and foremost. This is why I say the problem is that people from many social groups simply can't become writers, for whatever reasons.

 

And when I said about LGBT culture (for example), I meant that it's much harder to create a representation of a character with a mindset much different from yours without being familiar with the group such people come from. Of course, writing, in essence, is an exercise in trying to become a person very different from yourself, but with real-life groups, it's harder to create a realistic depiction, and it will take a lot of time to acquaint yourself with their life, time you may not have.

 

Of course, I was talking with regards to protagonists, like Emma and Regina - not background characters. With Aurora and Mulan, it was very easy to just find a writer able to write a queer character well enough and let them create a mini-arc. But with Emma and Regina, the showrunners themselves would need to be willing and able to tackle major issues and bold enough to go with creating a major gay storyline on a Disney family show - it wouldn't be enough to just give it to a staff writer. Not to mention neither character was conceived as a possible love interest for the other.

[Featherhat]

Does Hollywood need more diverse writers rooms? Undoubtedly. Does that give non-diverse writers rooms a free pass to only write about hetrosexual white people? Hell no.

 

You are absolutely right it. Unfortunately a lot of writers do "write what they know" which is one of the reasons why late 20s/30s/40s slackers bromances are popular. One of the reasons PLL is one of the most lesbian friendly shows on TV is because they have a lesbian showrunner and a couple of other gay EPs, same with "The Fosters". Shonda Rhimes has been noted for having diverse casts for years now and will have two of the handful of network shows featuring black women as the lead, the fact that she is (one of the very few) a female black showrunner undoubtedly does have something to do with that. Good writers shouldn't be incapable of writing different experiences, (one certainly hopes that the bulk of writers of police procedurals haven't experienced violent crime etc), but they ....don't always. In A&E's case "write what they know" seems to have paused on "well we've written 15 storylines dealing with turning Regina in Woegina, shall we make it 16?"

 

 

 

Who do you think people in the OUaT fandom interested in queer relationships should ship and be better to push for to become canon?

 

Well it almost certainly won't happen but Elsa/anyone? She doesn't have "canonical" love interest, even in her own movie and there are already loads of people freaking out that "Let it Go" is gay propaganda, because its a Disney song about being true to yourself. But , yeah..won't happen. Seriously maybe characters we haven't seen before on the show, Jasmine and a Aladdin gender swap? Wendy/Esmeralda? Cadet Kelly and Sharpay Evans? C-3P0 and R2D2? Maleficent falls into the old "evil gay" cliché but it is tempting and KBvS gives good gay. If they aren't going to go with Mulan/Aurora they should introduce other Disney characters and get creative with same gender pairings in the way they have with straight ones. I just don't see any of the regulars as having much bi-curiousity as written and I don't think these writers can pull of a full on "oh right, I'm bisexual" storyline, even if they wanted to. Trying to tie in lack of SwanQueen to lack of diversity arguments holds no weight. Really.

 

Look, the show could definitely stand to be more diverse in all regards. Seeing as it is primarily based on European folk tales and 50's cartoons its not hard to see why it isn't apparently a priority when even shows set in 2014 struggle. It's not a good thing, but its a fact that they are very focused on having Rumpel/Regina be the "canonical big bads" behind most things that that  whilst there are twists, they aren't usually diverse twists.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Featherhat

[SilverShadow]

I think there is a vocal segment of of the Swan Queen fandom that is definitely very pro-Regina above all else. It reminds me of Spike and Spuffy in Buffy fandom back in the day, in a bad way. It was a highly popular crack-ship that eventually became canon due to demand, and the popularity of the "villainous" character.  There was definitely a tone in part of that couple's fandom of wanting to "reward" Spike with Buffy's love, because he clearly deserved to have the most important woman in the show as his love interest because he was so awesome and women are prizes. Which, ya know, fuck that. *insert Princess Jasmine gif here.* 

 

I would totally have been on-board if they had given Emma a female love interest, so long as it was anybody but the woman who ruined her childhood and killed a man she was interested in out of spite. I was actively rooting for Elsa to be gay and hook up with Mulan before it was clear that wasn't likely to happen given the tight leash the writers are on with all things Frozen and I still want Mulan to have a female true love who loves her back.

 

I'm with anybody who wants more diversity on the show, but if that diversity takes the form of Swan Queen I'm kicking in my TV.

Edited August 30, 2014 by SilverShadow

[Serena]

I do think there's room to give Mulan a female love interest. They've done the gender-bent with Jack, why not Shang?

[retrograde]

Jane Espenson isn't the showrunner, though. And I don't think that every writer ever, no matter their background and interest, has some kind of moral responsibility to research and write about any social issue in-depth and to represent all minorities. They should write about things that interest them, first and foremost. This is why I say the problem is that people from many social groups simply can't become writers, for whatever reasons.

As a professional writer, I actually do think we have a responsibility to tell a more diverse variety of stories than are currently getting told. Part of this is making sure more people from a diverse variety of backgrounds are being trained and hired and given a platform, but part of it is also pushing ourselves to go outside of our own comfort zone and experience. If we just keep writing whatever's easiest, nothing changes and we are part of the problem. Of course, not all writers agree with me.

 

And when I said about LGBT culture (for example), I meant that it's much harder to create a representation of a character with a mindset much different from yours without being familiar with the group such people come from. Of course, writing, in essence, is an exercise in trying to become a person very different from yourself, but with real-life groups, it's harder to create a realistic depiction, and it will take a lot of time to acquaint yourself with their life, time you may not have.

A gay character doesn't necessarily have to have a mindset "different from your own" other than the gender of the person they are attracted to -- and every heterosexual male writer on this show does that whenever they write for heterosexual female characters. A gay character might have experienced the world and society in some different ways to that of a straight writer, I agree, but research and consultation really is part of their job (I don't think all or maybe even any of the writers grew up in foster care, or instance). And on this show, the writers have access to an entire world that doesn't have to conform to the prejudices of our own.

 

Now, the T in LGBT... yes I think that is an area where you would definitely want to be doing a lot of research and consultation with actual transgender people if you wanted to include a transgender character on your show. Incidentally, there is an excellent article in the NYT today about a straight, cisgender showrunner doing exactly that — and more — on a her new show.

[retrograde]

Anyway, just to lighten the tone: here is someone in the fandom being delightful.

[Serena]

Apparently some SQ fans are pissed at Matt Mitovich now? I don't really get why though...

[YaddaYadda]

Some people are certifiable.  Makes me hate social media so much!

[Stuffy]

Apparently some SQ fans are pissed at Matt Mitovich now? I don't really get why though...

Its the same repeat offenders that go after Adam and Jennifer.  They're also the ones that think they know Jennifer better than she knows herself because she clearly needs to come out of the closet.

[myril]

Before jumping to conclusions I suggest to take a closer look at things.
 

Apparently some SQ fans are pissed at Matt Mitovich now? I don't really get why though...

 
Actually they are not pissed but delighted. TVline.com used a picture of Regina and Emma for the Fall TV Spoiler photo gallery. So SwanQueen shippers are now happy and thank for the picture. And people read things different, so there was a little discussion on Twitter with SwanQueen and CaptainSwan shippers. Sometimes it is really better to just let it go, let the SwanQueen shippers be happy about the picture and move on.
 
Conversation on Twitter

https://twitter.com/MattMitovich/status/506844409775013888

Edited September 2, 2014 by katusch

[sharky]

Seriously, what the hell is up with the crazy fans on Twitter? I like Twitter for some things, but this back and forth from fans who take it personally when a website uses this photo or that is ridiculous. OMG! You used a Swan Queen photo, now you have to use a Captain Swan photo to make it fair!!!!! I'm sorry, but I can assure you that the thought process that goes into picking photos does not go that deep.

[Rumsy4]

Nothing Matt said suggested his choice had anything to do with shipping or Swan Queen. I'm sorry, I'm still seeing the crackship agenda being pushed here. And as Matt said, he was being played, or at best, being used as a tool.

 

ETA: Yeah--the CS fan sounded nuts too. Matt was doing his best to sound neutral. At the end of the day, he needs to be thinking of viewer traffic on his site too. He's not running  a charity. These "fans" have sadly no grip on reality.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Rumsy4

[ShadowFacts]

I confess ignorance about the relative merits of twitter, but I read that exchange and saw a couple people who need to get over themselves.  The word bully also comes to mind.

[Serena]

 

Actually they are not pissed but delighted. TVline.com used a picture of Regina and Emma for the Fall TV Spoiler photo gallery. So SwanQueen shippers are now happy and thank for the picture. And people read things different, so there was a little discussion on Twitter with SwanQueen and CaptainSwan shippers. Sometimes it is really better to just let it go, let the SwanQueen shippers be happy about the picture and move on.

 

Conversation on Twitter

https://twitter.com/MattMitovich/status/506844409775013888

No, some are delighted now, but the conversation I linked happened way before the photo was posted. So I guess since they got him to post a SQ picture, their tactic worked?

 

And damn, all those fans on Twitter are cray. I would not want Matt's job. I mean, I would, but I'd also use the block button liberally.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Serena

[stealinghome]

People be crazy. ANYONE who gets that worked up over a picture in this way needs to look at their life and look at their choices.

[Serena]

People be crazy. ANYONE who gets that worked up over a picture in this way needs to look at their life and look at their choices.

You'd think Emma and Regina were full-on making out in the picture by the way BOTH the people who loved and hated it reacted. Personally, my own thought was "well, if that's the picture they chose out of all the ones available, the 401 stills must not be very exciting."

You can bet if there'd been a picture of Marian full on bitchslapping Regina they'd have used that, just because of all the traffic it'd create! Alas, that only happened in my dreams.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Serena

[myril]

No, some are delighted now, but the conversation I linked happened way before the photo was posted. So I guess since they got him to post a SQ picture, their tactic worked?

 

And damn, all those fans on Twitter are cray. I would not want Matt's job. I mean, I would, but I'd also use the block button liberally.

 

You're right. Was a reaction of a more private conversation before - and I overlooked timestamp of that one. My mistake. (edit: and particular ironical that I suggested to take a closer look, going to have a word with my alter ego)

 

There are pushy fans. Not just from one ship though. I still think it's not right to single the SwanQueen shippers out as a whole group, and that is what it looks like in many of these discussions about Once fans. Generalizations are never helpful in conflict management. A few fans are fanatics, clearly misbehaving and even abusive, who they ship isn't the issue if we talk fan behavior.  One might like or dislike their ship, disagree with their reasoning for it, but that is shipping, people have different ships, dreams and views. We should be careful with accusations concerning every side, sometimes we do see only a part of what has happened. We should criticize their behavior with all due caution but I suggest to not discuss the ship itself in the same breath.

Edited September 2, 2014 by katusch

[sharky]

I agree. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy Captain Swan fans who are now asking Matt "What about our ship?" Or Rumbelle fans bitching that Belle wasn't in the promo. I just don't like any of it. It reminds me of some of the episodes of The Office that I can't watch again because the second-hand embarrassment is so cringe worthy -- and that's just a TV show!

[retrograde]

The craziest part of all that talk of "balanced journalism" is — with all due respect to Mat Mitovich and co. — reporting spoilers has very little to do with journalism. I mean, they cultivate quid-pro-quo relationships with the networks and showrunners and PR people and then they just relay what they're given. It's not like he says, "Today I'm going to find what is going on with Regina and Emma whether Adam and Eddy want me to or not!" then embarks on some investigative reporting. Now in actual interviews, sure, they choose what to ask about (though they're still only going to get substantial answers on what the writers care about), but spoiler roundups? C'mon. 

[Stuffy]

Wow Jennifer really can't tweet anything at all about Captain Swan without the Swan Queen bad apples getting mad about it. I feel so sorry about the respectful swan queen fans. I know they're out there but their voice is drowned out by the ones filled with hate. Then they wonder why Jennifer doesn't give interviews like Lana is with AfterEllen.

Yes I know all the fandoms have bad apples it just seems like the others come in occasional waves whereas Jennifer is constantly dealing with certain Swan Queen "fans" in her timeline.

[sharky]

Ugh. It's tea. You drink it. How is that controversial? For fuck's sake!

And why aren't those people harassing Lana and asking why she was seen in public with Sean? I mean how more anti-Swan Queen can you get? (Insert sarcastic eye roll here)

[stealinghome]

At this point JMo needs to just delete her Twitter account. 'Twould probably be better for her stress levels!

 

Also, I'm sorry, but if it feels like we bitch about the crazy minority of the Swan Queen fandom a lot? Maybe that's because they seem to be the only shipping segment that inundates an actor with crazy hate-filled tweets on a regular basis, like freaking clockwork.

[Dani-Ellie]

Ugh. I hate that the actors can't even respond to cute things the fans are doing for canon couples without other fans flipping the hell out. Like, seriously, people, come on.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[myril]

It's a few SQ and Swanfire fans teaming up this time. Fun. Twitter has this nice function to mute users, or one can block them if they're annoying and inappropriate. At worst report them. There are a few self proclaimed fans making frequently bad wind (and yes, they are the same accounts most of the time), and us jumping every time they do makes their wind effect only bigger. There were others telling them off in a decent way on Twitter already and I think that is the better thing to do.

Edited September 13, 2014 by katusch

[maryle]

Honestly I feel so sorry for J.M.O the crazy always target her!

She seems to be a bright nice woman but some b.a SQ fans really harass her with all sort of stupid rumors about her private life. In fact they purposely make remarks and insuation about her and the Rose actress who play Think !!

The actress who by the way have a long term boyfriend ; architect  Benjamin Hoeksema  and with whom she lives in their home in L. A .

At this point it is bullying and totally disgusting !

[Emma]

I love how Jen is countering all the crap with the 101 smiles challenge.

[Serena]

Wow Jennifer really can't tweet anything at all about Captain Swan without the Swan Queen bad apples getting mad about it. I feel so sorry about the respectful swan queen fans. I know they're out there but their voice is drowned out by the ones filled with hate. Then they wonder why Jennifer doesn't give interviews like Lana is with AfterEllen.

Fun fact, Lana didn't give that interview to AfterEllen after all (if she did I missed it, and honestly I think it would have made enough waves that I wouldn't have). So only Jen got the flack it, but Lana who acted the same came out of the whole situation smelling like roses.

 

I'm glad she hasn't responded to the tea thing so far. What could she say? Like literally the only possible answer is "it's freaking tea, get a grip"

[stealinghome]

So only Jen got the flack it, but Lana who acted the same came out of the whole situation smelling like roses.

Well, yeah, and just look at how the rabid Swan Queen minority doesn't send a bunch of hate-filled tweets to Lana whenever she stans for Outlaw Queen. At this point it's pretty clear that that rabid minority are diehard Regina fans who think Regina (and Lana) walk on water.

[Camera One]

Tea is supposed to be calming.  That is the most dysfunctional discussion about tea I've ever read.  Hopefully, she already blocks those people.  Or maybe Jennifer Morrison just doesn't really care as much as us, who are not as accustomed to haters.  I mean, the easiest way to minimize getting annoying tweets like that would be not to promote a CS-product, but she does anyway, so in some ways, I don't think or I hope it just shows she is not that bothered by it.  Do twitter wars increase the social media buzz index for Once Upon a Time?  Presupposing these are mostly outlier Regina fans, then there's no danger of them quitting the show over this, since they'll still watch for Regina.

[retrograde]

I read through the replies to the tweet (I know, I know), and the thing that surprised me is that most of the negative ones were criticizing JMo for implicitly supporting the relationship with Hook (because he hits women/is a date rapist/probably has an STD [???]), yet Colin tweeting it had zero negative comments. I realise he is considerably less famous and has half the followers, but why does the blowback never extend to him? I'm genuinely curious. 

[Camera One]

That was one of the most unfair comments I read, but that particular tweeter made quite a few comments, so I am hoping she has been blocked and Jennifer Morrison didn't have to read any of that.  That's a good question, retrograde.  Maybe these people blame JM for betraying their preferred ship, so they direct the vitriol to her?  I'm glad Colin doesn't have to deal with it as much though it is quite unfair.

[Serena]

I read through the replies to the tweet (I know, I know), and the thing that surprised me is that most of the negative ones were criticizing JMo for implicitly supporting the relationship with Hook (because he hits women/is a date rapist/probably has an STD [???]), yet Colin tweeting it had zero negative comments. I realise he is considerably less famous and has half the followers, but why does the blowback never extend to him? I'm genuinely curious. 

Maybe because they aren't following him in the first place?

Colin doesn't get many negative comments, usually. Maybe because all his answers start and end with "Maybe" and "Who knows?" and he says things about CS like "He kind of likes her or whatever". JMO, as much as she's "I love all ships!" and "Let's be friends!" on Twitter, once in an interview went straight up "yup, Hook shows up for her when everyone else lets her down" which I'm sure would irk me immensely if I didn't ship CS.

 

I do remember Colin's "who knows, maybe, it's possible!" attitude getting him in trouble once. He answered a "will Hook get with Regina?" (yes, Regina) question of the start of S3 with a "...maybe? He's kind of into Emma, but in the meantime..." and he got called a racist because Lana is Latina.

[YaddaYadda]

I do remember Colin's "who knows, maybe, it's possible!" attitude getting him in trouble once. He answered a "will Hook get with Regina?" (yes, Regina) question of the start of S3 with a "...maybe? He's kind of into Emma, but in the meantime..." and he got called a racist because Lana is Latina.

 

Ok, so I actually laughed at this.  Like a laugh out loud, snort type of laugh because WTF!

 

Everyone needs to not take this so seriously (or seriously at all).  I find the bitching on social media over couples (not just OUaT) ruins the whole experience.  People need to just leave the actors alone to do their job.

[sharky]

That is the most dysfunctional discussion about tea I've ever read.

I think this pretty much sums up the entire issue very neatly! :)