Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[orza]

It's part of Adam's job to promote to show so I see is no reason for him to stop. Lots of people enjoy the script teases and it is really easy to just not read all the dumb responses.

[Mathius]

Maybe he should find someplace else to post them, where it isn't so easy for people to personally attack him every time he does it.  Seriously, even he once questioned the value of doing it if hate is all he gets back.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mathius

[orza]

If the point is to promote the show then high-traffic venues like twitter are the right place to post for maximum exposure. The rude responses don't seem to bother Adam, so it's wasted effort for random people to take it upon themselves to be upset on his behalf.

[Mari]

Plus, I've had the understanding that verified Twitter accounts have more screening options than the rest of us have. There are probably a number he just doesn't even see.

[orza]

There are also third-party tools available to manage twitter accounts. I also assume that Adam has an assistant who posts some of the promotional stuff and generic tweets on his behalf and filters a lot of the rude nonsense to improve the signal to noise ratio on his account so he doesn't even see most of the dumb stuff..

[Rumsy4]

Adam actually goes looking for people who tweet about the show, even if they don't @ mention him. He has said he falls down a rabbit hole sometimes on twitter and ends up browsing tweets. He seems to like courting the drama. 

[Shanna Marie]

Adam actually goes looking for people who tweet about the show, even if they don't @ mention him.

Oh really? I wonder what hashtags he searches. But I don't think I could sum up my feelings about this show in 140 characters.

[Rumsy4]

It's not so much hashtags, but it's easy to end up browsing one tweet, then checking out that person's twitter, then reading a tweet from them to someone else, and so on. Damon Lindelof had a penchant for replying in a self-deprecating manner to anyone who sent him negative comments about LOST to the point when people started doing it just to troll him. He finally deleted his twitter when he realized he was taking it too much to heart. haha. I guess it's hard for people to not respond, especially to criticism of any kind.

 

But engaging so much in conversation like Adam does seems ill-advised, especially when it seems to foster rude and entitled behavior in some fans. Going back to Brigitte-gate from two days ago, one fan actually tweeted her this: "I hope some of the many constructive comments sent your way sink in, then, on what's felt problematic to people about messaging." I had to roll my eyes.

[YaddaYadda]

People are so entitled. There's an easy solution to all of this. Turn off your TV. 

[HoodlumSheep]

There's spoiler stuff from the next ep. So beware!

http://freifraufischer.tumblr.com/post/133846794511/100-episodes-of-once-upon-a-times-people-of-color

Has anyone seen this on the tumblr spoilers tag? I wonder if we're in for some drama on Sunday.

Edited November 24, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Souris]

Oh, yeah, there will be drama. There was quite a bit of drama on Adam's mentions on Twitter yesterday over that.

[HoodlumSheep]

What's the football schedule look like for Sunday? Because if there's some big games on, it'll be tough to get that to trend vs. zillions of tweets about all the games.

[YaddaYadda]

Once really lacks representation, I completely, 100% agree with this. But does any writer ever go into this, and be like well the character is black, or Hispanic, or whatever minority group, let's have a white character kill them? The actor who played Sir Kay is a Canadian-Lebanese actor, and his character was obliterated by the Gods, basically. Should I be looking for a message behind this? I mean I'm of Irish-Arab decent.

 

This bugs me to no end, because I don't think the writers go into a story with that kind of mindset where it's let's kill this person because of their skin color, ethnic background, and whatever. This isn't Rambo.

[mjgchick]

They like to mention that Sydney was enslaved but they always seem to ignore who held him captive though. This is why I can't take their faux concern about the show seriously. 

 

With Hook killing Merlin it's not like the show is making this out to be a good thing. He will end up paying the consequences for his actions in the end.

Edited November 24, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

Does that mean that they can't ever cast a minority actor to play a character who is going to die? Wouldn't that be discrimination?

[Souris]

And they ignore Regina raping a white man for 28 years and then murdering him, so....

[myril]

Once really lacks representation, I completely, 100% agree with this. But does any writer ever go into this, and be like well the character is black, or Hispanic, or whatever minority group, let's have a white character kill them? The actor who played Sir Kay is a Canadian-Lebanese actor, and his character was obliterated by the Gods, basically. Should I be looking for a message behind this? I mean I'm of Irish-Arab decent.

 

This bugs me to no end, because I don't think the writers go into a story with that kind of mindset where it's let's kill this person because of their skin color, ethnic background, and whatever. This isn't Rambo.

Nope, this is not Rambo. And you're likely right, the writers don't go into their writing with the intention to kill off every character who is a person of color. But neither do they show much effort to do something different with people of color than make them characters good for a while as villain or guest character at best but not much more, and seem to have a tendency to kill them off. Could say it's a fail of casting (unless specifically written into the casting note or the script agencies eventually tend to be blind to other options than the usual white cast), business as usual, because representation is still a problem in Hollywood, though on TV a little less, and shrug it off. But if fans are frustrated about it, why not voice it? I think pointing out, that OUaT is disappointing in this is okay, trying to trend a hashtag on Twitter a way to do it. What would be a problem if that is turned into personal attacks against crew and cast. Which many might expect to happen, but at least the link isn't a call to arms via personal attacks, it's just an appeal to get the hashtag trending.

Edited November 24, 2015 by myril

[YaddaYadda]

But if fans are frustrated about it, why not voice it? I think pointing out, that OUaT is disappointing in this is okay, trying to trend a hashtag on Twitter a way to do it.

 

And that's fine. Hollywood is in no way a representation of society at large anyway. If you give me representation, don't turn it into a walking, talking stereotype. 

[mjgchick]

I don't mind them trending it. I just hope this has more to do with actual social issues and not them taking it out on the writers because they aren't getting their way which is what i think is their real problem.

[sharky]

On the other hand, they cast an African-American actress as Repunzel and a bunch of fans rioted because Repunzel is supposed to be white. They need to do more, sure, but I wonder if this is just the same group of fans who tried promoting #knceuponahook. What's a Twitter trend going to do to change anything?

[mjgchick]

I remember when they all said "My Lancelot is blonde and blue eyes." I didn't see anyone rioting against that either.

Edited November 24, 2015 by mjgchick

[myril]

I remember when they all said "My Lancelot is blonde and blue eyes." I didn't see anyone rioting against that either.

I haven't seen such comments, and so guess many might have missed it, can't have eyes in all places. Think it's a difference in attention level. Of course sometimes fans are getting as well at each others throats for such things, but when there is an impression of an "official" party (the show as a whole, network, creators, crew, cast) failing expectations or hopes more attention is payed to it. When one of my neighbors or friends says stupid things or fails in a matter concerning me it's something that I likely will treat as more private or direct matter and on a more personal level, maybe do some gossiping and try to get other neighbors or friends on my side, but hardly would make a political statement of it. If the major of my town does say the same stupid thing or fails in a matter that concerns me, my reaction likely would be a lot more public. (edit: or let it be the pastor, some important town clerk or whoever).

Edited November 24, 2015 by myril

[stealinghome]

I saw plenty of people calling out the racist fans who said things like "Lancelot/Rapunzel MUST BE white, they have ruined the characters by making them black!" Not sure where you all were looking, but there was plenty of backlash against those fans imo.

Once sucks at diversity. If they don't want to get called out for it, maybe they should try, you know, getting better at it.

[Faemonic]

I don't think the writers go into a story with that kind of mindset where it's let's kill this person because of their skin color, ethnic background, and whatever. This isn't Rambo.

Racism isn't always so overt. It's unexamined biases that dictate behaviours that aren't outright hostile. If a writer is simply far more comfortable with an all-white or passing-white*** main cast, but would tack on people of colour in the margins (where people of colour apparently "belong", marginalized) so as not to appear racist...then that is still racist. It's not lynching, but it's still not equality. Racism isn't a thorn you feel in your heart. It's a systematic injustice in a broader scope of culture that affects legislation, demographic economics, and media representation among many other things in a feedback loop that generates more racism or keeps a status quo of existing racism. That systemic injustice becomes invisible if you say "no lynchings, no racism"; to consider racism instead as systemic, means considering that microaggressions and casual hostilities validate the violent hostilities and neglect is part of that.

 

Does that mean that they can't ever cast a minority actor to play a character who is going to die?

Nope, it means that there ought to be an equal percentage of minority actors in the regular cast who are protected from death by being the Writer's Pet or under Clarence's wing.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that be discrimination?

Depends on who has the social power, as mentioned: which demographics disproportionately benefit or suffer from legislation, is there systemic economic discrimination that correllates class or caste with race through its system of power, and does the media landscape represent equally icons of beauty and success? If we can't help but notice that there aren't statistically that many minorities in situations where any person would be happy, hence calling them minorities, then that's discrimination in the critical thinking sense.

 

Discrimination in the racist sense relies on who has the systemic power, or who carries the markers or features that generates a response from society (that's pretty consistent, despite nobody in society intending to respond in that way.) And abusing that power. Systematically disempowered people can't abuse power that they don't have. Between individuals, there might be some psychological power exchange, but in powers such as connections or money or how media reflects back some aspect of a person...discrimination relies on the more powerful party abusing those social powers, so that's only possible if it comes from (or goes to) the more empowered side.

 

 

 

*** this is a can of worms better opened in the social issues thread

Edited November 25, 2015 by Faemonic

[Katherine]

Regardless of whether some of these fans have an ulterior agenda, I think they make a good point. The problem isn't solely the fact that minority characters are being killed off. The problem is that there aren't enough minority characters to begin with, and the ones who do exist have had disproportionately crappy treatment. Representation is important. I think it's easy for some of us to take it for granted, because we ARE being represented. I can turn on pretty much any channel and see someone of the same race as me, the same hair color, the same age, etc. For a lot of minority status individuals, that isn't the case. They have a right to be upset. Even if for some fans, this protest has more to do with screen time for a certain favorite character than it does with concerns about representation, I don't feel like it's my place to question their motives. The fact is that lack of representation is a very real problem, and the more attention that is brought to it, the better, IMO.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Katherine

[mjgchick]

Not we. I wish I was being represented on my favorite show. lol

But I get what you mean. Its easy for others to not think much of how the producers cast these characters. I'd love it if Emma Swan looked like me.

I still feel that some are not being genuine. I just hope they are doing it for the right reasons.

[FierceAfroChick]

I don’t think this comes from a genuine place at all.  True, there could be more representation on the show, but given the way this fandom operates, I’m inclined to believe this has nothing to do with the lack of POC and more to do with agendas.  A POC is in one of the lead roles, so I don’t get the bitching.  And TBH, I’m more worried about how POC fare in real life.  More representation on a TV show is not going to save Laquan McDonald or fix the criminal justice system or get me lower finance rates from banks. 

 

People crying and whining over make believe shit when we're dying and struggling in real life.  Really?

 

I will say this; I do take issue with television/movies when they portray black women as having no love life or deem them not even desirable enough to have the attention of a black man.  It’s very easy for them to cast a black male in a role and pair him with a white or Latina woman; that’s more acceptable (and I think Will Smith even touched on this).  Or if it’s a new show, the romantic tension is amped up from the get go (see Rosewood) if it’s a black male lead/white woman lead.  But if a black woman is opposite a hot, white male lead, they shy away from putting them in a romance (see Sleepy Hollow, Vampire Diaries).  Then suddenly it’s, “why can’t they just be friends?”.   Black man, white woman?  "Oh that would be soooo hot!"  Why not at least cast a black woman as Nimue?  Is black love taboo on TV?  Do you really think black men only find white women desirable and not women of their own race?  That shit bugs me.

Edited November 25, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Rumsy4]

While I do think OUAT sucks at representation, at least the writers are equal opportunity when killing off guest-stars. In the past seasons, characters of various ethnicities have been killed off: Lancelot, Marian, Cora, Tamara, Greg, Pan, Cruella, Aurora's father, Belle's mom, etc..

What's more telling is that other than Lana, all the series regulars, including the ones they recently brought in, are all white.

[kili]

The problem is that there aren't enough minority characters to begin with, and the ones who do exist have had disproportionately crappy treatment.

The problem is that except for Regina, all the main characters are white (partly because a bunch of them are all from thee same family). Every new character introduced is either going to be a villain or a victim. Merida? Victim (heart ripped out, controlled and turned into a bear). Gwen? Victim (sanded and controlled). Arthur? Villain (enslaving and killing). Violet? Victim (heart ripped out and controlled). Fergus? Victim (killed - with a little dash of villain for trying to mind control his troops). 

 

Last season. Lily? Villain/Victim. Author? Villain. Apprentice? Victim. Cruela? Villain/Dead. Ursula? Villain (who at least gets redeemed). Malificient? Villain/Victim.

 

It's not a colour thing - it's a Once thing.

 

So, yes, this isn't going to stop until the make a main character a POC and even then, anybody will be able to cherry pick them into either a victim or a villain because they all do evilish things and get victimized.

[HoodlumSheep]

I feel like we should probably start moving to the Social Issues/Morality thread.

But, that victim/villain mentality Once has is kind of true, sadly.

[Faemonic]

People crying and whining over make believe shit when we're dying and struggling in real life.  Really?

 

I will say this; I do take issue with television/movies when they portray black women as having no love life or deem them not even desirable enough to have the attention of a black man.

I got to read an anthropological essay entitled Pocahontas Goes to the Clinic: Popular Culture as Lingua Franca by Cheryl Mattingly, and if I read it right then it basically described how "brands" like Marvel and Disney, by their presence, serve as a bridge to other social strata, so hospital workers, umm...start to care for patients who are of color and/or lowerclass. It's great that it does that, but of course I would have thought that people in charge of medical care ought to be caring for patients anyway. Especially if the patients are children, which was the focus group. Media representation isn't the most important focus in the whole system, but it's accessible and effective.

 

On that note, still waiting for Tiana. Although Esmerelda was my favorite, she wasn't popular enough to have gotten into the Disney Princess lineup, so Tiana's got a better chance.

 

Rapunzel's parents must have had some epic/tragic love story we haven't been shown. #ItHappenedOffscreen If we get flashbacks next season

or sooner, 5B is covering Greek mythology I hear

to when Ursula's mother was alive, maybe Amphitrite won't be white.

[Souris]

I debated whether to put this here or in Social Issues, but it's more about fan reaction, so....

 

Some fans tend to count Regina as a POC when it comes to her being oppressed (I know, WTF, right?) or people being mean to her; I've seen more than one person talk about the show being racist against her since she's a POC. But at the same time they don't count her as a POC when it comes to main-cast representation. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

[Katherine]

It's true that a lot of fans might use social issues to try to get their way. I'm just saying that sometimes their point is legitimate and needs to be made, regardless of the motives behind it. I'm not trying to argue that representation on a TV show is more important than real world issues, but it does matter to a lot of people, and I don't want to discount their opinions just because I don't happen to experience the same problem.

 

The thing is, media does matter. What we see in TV shows, movies, the news...it has an impact on all of us. And it also reflects real life. So the fact that there is a lack of minority representation in the media (not just OUAT; it's a problem everywhere) reflects real problems facing minority groups. I certainly don't want to start a debate; I'm just saying that I'm not part of a minority group so I don't know what it's like not to be represented, but I can't imagine it's a good feeling. I think it's great that people are trying to raise awareness. Even if their true motives are just to get Regina more screen time, the movement itself might have a positive effect. And I say this as someone who detests Regina and would be happy never to see her onscreen again. Some things are bigger than ships and my own personal Regina hate.

 

ETA: I agree that the victim/villain distinction is impossible to avoid on this show. Every new character will typically be one or the other. I just don't think that's really the point here. The point, IMO, is that we need MORE minority characters--ones who get lots of focus and more POV. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by Katherine

[mjgchick]

You know what I wish? I wish that I could go in the Hook and Emma tags without seeing the Tumblr post is nothing but people defending them. Every character on this show is problematic. Just accept it. Who cares what others are saying. I sure don't.

Oh sorry but Regina is the last person I'd call oppressed. She still holds a vault with hearts in them. Has raped a man and then murdered him because he no longer was in her control. Bye.

Edited November 25, 2015 by mjgchick

[CatMack]

The "Hook is Captain Rapist" crowd are getting an early start in the comments section for theater sneak peek on TVline. So far there hasn't been much talk of spoilers in the comments, but read at your own risk.

http://tvline.com/2015/11/27/once-upon-a-time-season-5-video-regina-dark-hook-plan/#comment-list-wrapper

I know that not everyone who thinks Hook perpetuates rape culture is also a Swan Queen shipper, but when you have someone who brings up "Hook is a rapist" as a reason to support Swan Queen, the mental gymnastics are truly stunning.

[mjgchick]

Some are Neal fans and they too can't talk because last I checked having unprotected sex with a minor is a big no no. Then their are those who are Rumple fans and once again murdering your wife and putting the second wife to sleep as if he's roofied her kind of not good either. But sure Hook making inuendoes means he's rapist.

[legaleagle53]

Barbara Hershey is having a Q & A session on Twitter, and sure enough, the third question she got was "Do you ship #SwanQueen?"  Barbara's answer?  "Always."

 

I guess there's really no way to avoid answering that question without pissing someone off, though!

[kili]

The "Hook is Captain Rapist" crowd 

 

Cheer up.

After this week, they'll probably change it to Captain Racist. Not only did he kill Merlin and try to kill Ursula, they'll probably take him to task for trying to kill Blackbeard. If he kills Lancelot too, it will be a lock

. The closer Captain Swan get to being canonical True Love, the more things they will try to toss at him until something sticks.

[AnotherCastle]

Barbara Hershey is having a Q & A session on Twitter, and sure enough, the third question she got was "Do you ship #SwanQueen?"  Barbara's answer?  "Always."

 

I guess there's really no way to avoid answering that question without pissing someone off, though!

I'm pretty sure that's a fake account and the real Barbara Hershey is not on Twitter at all.

[october]

I know that not everyone who thinks Hook perpetuates rape culture is also a Swan Queen shipper, but when you have someone who brings up "Hook is a rapist" as a reason to support Swan Queen, the mental gymnastics are truly stunning.

 

My favourite 'reason' for why Hook is 'a rapist' was from a Tumblr thread I sadly no long have the link to. The reason was literally: 'he is a pirate and pirates are known for raping people!!' It was incredible mental gymnastics and flip flopping. Tens all round.

[legaleagle53]

I'm pretty sure that's a fake account and the real Barbara Hershey is not on Twitter at all.

 

I don't know.  If it's a fake account, it's the best fake account I've ever seen.  It sounds exactly like her!

Edited November 27, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Camera One]

Especially her OMG's and how she's so into current pop music.

 

If it's her, maybe she has no idea what SwanQueen is.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

I know that not everyone who thinks Hook perpetuates rape culture is also a Swan Queen shipper, but when you have someone who brings up "Hook is a rapist" as a reason to support Swan Queen, the mental gymnastics are truly stunning.

I feel that sort of reasoning perpetuates the stereotype that lesbians are the way we are because of patriarchal sexual trauma or that we're with our partners only because guys are jerks or otherwise unfulfilling to have in life. Perpetuating stereotypes are not good.

 

My favourite 'reason' for why Hook is 'a rapist' was from a Tumblr thread I sadly no longer have the link to. The reason was literally: 'he is a pirate and pirates are known for raping people!!'

This is my favorite link about how to analyze characters on this show. This one is pretty good, too, it ought to be a classic as far as online articles go, but evidently it can't be read enough.

 

As for Captain Racist, I've been saying that since he declined to flirt with Mulan back in S2. (Although I'd accept speculations that was his gaydar only because Barrie's Hook was a genderqueer psychic.)

[Faemonic]

All right! I give in! I'm not savvy enough to figure out from several contexts why people refer to some viewers as "stans"

 

stan

 

I thought was a typo somehow for fan, or a squished-together word from fan and something else.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Faemonic

[KAOS Agent]

It's a nickname for a super fan that comes from Eminem's song "Stan" about the crazy stalker who writes increasingly strange letters to Eminem. His name was Stan ergo super fans are "stans". Whether Eminem picked it as a clever portmanteau of stalker and fan is debatable. It is an easy to rhyme word after all.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[myril]

My take on it: Because fan is the new normal, to talk about an obsessed fan we needed a new, escalating term ;-) Fans are obsessed, stans are overly obsessed, or so. Fan, super fan, ultra fan.

Edited November 30, 2015 by myril

[Faemonic]

Thank you both! That was bothering me because acronyms, squished together names, or parts of a word usually become clear through osmosis and context.

[Mari]

Well, I was brave enough to go and check out the Lily Sparks review.  It wasn't posted yet--just her initial impressions and a full post later announcement.   I knew this episode might be a favorite for some Swan Queeners, but in her postlette, she even praised Henry for being sensible or reasonable. 

 

 I don't think I'm brave enough to go back later and read the whole thing, and I occasionally do just for perspective.

[Serena]

For your own good, go look at pictures of kittens on the Internet instead.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Serena

[Mari]

Maybe puppies or dolphins?  I find cats a little disturbing.

 

I like dogs, and since I live pretty near the geographic center of North America, it doesn't really matter if it turns out dolphins secretly ambush boats to eat people's faces;  I won't have to worry about rampaging dolphins.

 

Cats and their creepy, semi-feral faces, are everywhere.