S01.E02: Teach Your Children Well

[Nick24]

Quote

FAMILY MATTERS – John (Drake Rodger) and Millie (Bianca Kajlich) are on different pages about his new interest in hunting and Ada (Demetria McKinney) tries to bridge the gap. Mary (Meg Donnelly) follows a trail from her father that points to the disappearance of a teenage boy in Topeka. Meanwhile, Carlos (JoJo Fleites) has a heart to heart with Mary as Latika (Nida Khurshid) dives into her books to identify the monster. John Showalter directed the episode written by Robbie Thompson & David H. Goodman (#102). Original Airdate 10/18/2022.

[Nick24]

That was wonderful!

I loved the case! It was creepy. We've got a new monster! Actually, I really liked the idea of some monster punishing disobeying children. That's new for SPNverse.

Looks like John has more issues with Henry according to La Tunda (am I correct?). 

I'm liking the dynamics between all the characters. It seems natural and Robbie really takes it seriously. I mean, they had some disagreements at first, but they kinda solved them, which means that these characters can grow!

In the regard of Mary's attitude toward Samule she reminds of Dean/John in SPN S1. I'm wondering if she's gonna change her mind in some way about Samuel like Dean did about John (SPN Ep. 3.10).

Liked John/Millie again. That's great how they dealt with their issues at the end. Robbie does know how to work family issues properly, doesn't he?

Who was walking in the woods at the end with all those weird creatures? I love that mystery they've set up and I want to learn more so much. Very excited!

All in all, great episode came out of Robbie's and the new writer's co-work. John Showalter's directing was also very good, too.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Nick24

[ahrtee]

My main comment is that I had a hard time getting past Mary in her white nightgown.  

I also find her eyebrows very distracting (as someone who, in 1972, was told I had eyebrows "like Groucho Marx."  And not in an admiring way.) 😀   

[SueB]

The episode was excellent. 
The MUSIC was …. worth the price.  Acquarius and Teach Your Children Well.  Just so spot on.  
 

And yes, I SEE YOU ROBBIE.  Mary’s dress was evil.  And when the creature threw her agains the tree, I gasped.  Oy, that hurt.  
 

I love John’s trial and error approach.  He is a natural at this.  
 

Ada is messing with trouble.  I like her but that seems way too risky for her to pull that trance thing without backup.  
 

Yes Mary=Dean was very strong in this episode.  I love how the gang called her out for just pushing forward and she responded.  She’ll do it again (it’s in her DNA) but her apology was sincere.  
 

Loved Latika.  Again.  

yes, creepy bug lady … thanks for the clues…

I’m so very glad they had those songs. 

[PAForrest]

I agree, the music was outstanding in this episode. And I don't think it was even possible not to catch the foreshadowing when they put Mary in that white dress. Ack! Also, I dunno, was that a possible Rowena sighting at the end?!? Whoever it was, seriously cool final scene.

I'm loving the whole family vibe of the team. I really enjoy the entire cast, and the fact that RT has already got me rooting for this John and Mary in a way I never did with the OG series. The mothership lost a lot when Thompson left the series.

Very strong second episode.

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, Nick24 said:

Looks like John has more issues with Henry according to La Tunda

I'm sorry but did fake Millie really bring up Henry's disappointment in John? John only realized that wasn't Millie when she mentioned Mary. Did John forget that he was 4 when Henry disappeared? How disappointed could Henry have been in a 4 year old?

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm sorry but did fake Millie really bring up Henry's disappointment in John? John only realized that wasn't Millie when she mentioned Mary. Did John forget that he was 4 when Henry disappeared? How disappointed could Henry have been in a 4 year old?

It's not about Henry. I'm talking about John and his perception of his father's actions. I just think that not!Millie's speech wasn't for nothing. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Nick24

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm sorry but did fake Millie really bring up Henry's disappointment in John? John only realized that wasn't Millie when she mentioned Mary. Did John forget that he was 4 when Henry disappeared? How disappointed could Henry have been in a 4 year old?

The point is that John didn’t know why his father disappeared. He didn’t know that Henry had time-traveled to the future and then been killed. All he knew throughout his entire childhood was that Henry had abandoned him without a word. It would be natural for a little child to secretly wonder if it was because of something he had done, if he had disappointed his father in some way. And Fake Millie brings out this hidden fear of John’s: “I know it’s painful, knowing you were the reason he left.”

Now, of course, after having been given the mysterious letter with the key to the Men of Letters headquarters, he knows that his father’s disappearance had something to do with his work with the MOL (“It’s a dangerous world out there, and our family has fought that danger for centuries.”) But this hasn’t brought John peace of mind, because now that he is hunting with Mary, hearing how she was raised since she was a child to do this, he has started to wonder why Henry didn’t train him the way that Samuel trained Mary to follow their family tradition. And again, Fake Millie reveals his hidden fear:  “If he really wanted you to follow in his footsteps, he would have stayed, trained you to be a part of the Men of Letters like he was, but he didn’t.”

So deep inside John is still the 4 year old who didn’t understand why his father had abandoned him, and feared that he did something wrong to make it happen. Maybe, he thinks, his father knew that he would be a failure at hunting things and saving people, and that’s why he left him behind.

In “As Time Goes By”, after they meet Henry, Dean reminds Sam that Henry’s disappearance affected John his whole life. He angrily says that John hated his father for leaving him. And it’s impossible not to be reminded of another 4 year old who lost his parent and whose life changed overnight and who didn’t understand why, and think how it affected him his whole life as well.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm sorry but did fake Millie really bring up Henry's disappointment in John? John only realized that wasn't Millie when she mentioned Mary. Did John forget that he was 4 when Henry disappeared? How disappointed could Henry have been in a 4 year old?

I’m suddenly reminded of the She-Hulk finale and her rant on Daddy Issues (warning spoilers):

Spoiler

‘What's with all the daddy issues? We got Tony Stark. Daddy issues. Thor. Daddy issues. Loki. Same daddy, same issues. Star-Lord. Two daddies, two issues.’

Sorry, couldn’t resist.  
 

But I agree with Bergamot:

41 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

In “As Time Goes By”, after they meet Henry, Dean reminds Sam that Henry’s disappearance affected John his whole life. He angrily says that John hated his father for leaving him.

So Supernatural was founded upon Daddy Issues.   Plus bonus points for Daddy Issues being a critical bonding topic for Mary/John.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by SueB

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

My main comment is that I had a hard time getting past Mary in her white nightgown.  

Aside from the symbolism, it didn't look very attractive on her. Plus she looked kind of uncomfortable in it. But I think maybe that was on purpose. Mary is a tiny, dainty girl (she looks so petite next to the other actors!) but I guess she would prefer practical clothes that work for hunting rather than frilly, dainty outfits.

I like that they are having fun with the clothing from that era: Latika's bell-bottom trousers in the zombie warehouse, Carlos' paisley shirt in the motel room, John's fringed leather vest and love beads at the commune. Also loving the music!

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I also find her eyebrows very distracting

I don't know, I kind of like that she is not conventionally pretty in a bland, ordinary way. She has an interesting, angular face.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

“In As Time Goes By”, after they meet Henry, Dean reminds Sam that Henry’s disappearance affected John his whole life. He angrily says that John hated his father for leaving him. And it’s impossible not to be reminded of another 4 year old who lost his parent and whose life changed overnight and who didn’t understand why, and think how it affected him his whole life as well.

Yes, this was the parallel that resonated the most with me from this episode.

It was more subtle than others, but I was reminded of the exact same scene from the exact same episode, Bergamot.

And the extreme youthfulness of all the characters was obvious and apparent to me too.

They are still teenagers, albeit hunters, too, so their parental issues would be pretty fresh and raw and ready to be dealt with head-on at this stage of their lives.

This episode was chock full of parallels, but for me the one mentioned in the quote and the awesome hunt and, of course, the music were the highlights.

Still liking all the characters, with this episode an especially good one for Mary and Latika, even with John and his mom/dad issues being more seemingly front and center.

I love when Carlos calls Mary "Mare".

Teach Your Children was perfect for the ending, but The Age of Aquarius brought to light the great bond between all of them. 

Loved that. So much.

Episode 2 rocked. Can't wait for next week's episode. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Myrelle

[MAK]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

John is still the 4 year old

So very much like Dean?

Anyway, finally saw the episode. It was really good.

The monster this week was interesting. I like how we are learning about the characters through the MoTW. Nice throwback to OG SPN. That's how we got to know Dean and Sam and John and their family dynamic.  (We learned much about John before he showed up in Shadow.)

So glad that Carlos and Latika have voices in this show (so far at least) and Mary admits that she needs to listen. Some character growth already.

A lot little parallels to SPN. 

IMO, Drake is awesome as John.  I can't help but see Sam in him all...the..time! Especially when he was arguing with Millie in the beginning. Still warming up to Meg. Very much like Dean. It was a little hilarious seeing her stomping around the woods in her hunting boots wearing that sundress (night gown). Like someone said above, I think she was meant to look uncomfortable in the outfit.

That Ada seems to be really powerful! Waiting to hear her back story.

The final scene....Rowena and hell hounds?

EDIT:  Forgot to mention, the music was perfect!

Edited October 19, 2022 by MAK

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, MAK said:

IMO, Drake is awesome as John.  I can't help but see Sam in him all...the..time! Especially when he was arguing with Millie in the beginning. Still warming up to Meg. Very much like Dean. It was a little hilarious seeing her stomping around the woods in her hunting boots wearing that sundress (night gown). Like someone said above, I think she was meant to look uncomfortable in the outfit

Yes, these are the awesome visuals that these 2 young actors bring to their roles, IMO; but when John said that he liked the punching part of hunting better than the talking part, that was All Dean to me, while Mary so uncomfortable in her dress was a call back to early season Dean in that first suit he had to wear.

Jensen said that the casting of John and Mary were of paramount importance to making this show work.

And he was right.

That they've struck pay dirt with the side characters too can only help with their hopes for another season order.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Myrelle

[MAK]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yes, these are the awesome visuals that these 2 young actors bring to their roles, IMO; but when John said that he liked the punching part of hunting better than the talking part, that was All Dean to me, while Mary so uncomfortable in her dress was a call back to early season Dean in that first suit he had to wear.

Jensen said that the casting of John and Mary were of paramount importance to making this show work.

And he was right.

That they've struck pay dirt with the side characters too can only help with their hopes for another season order.

I totally agree. The actors, Drake and Meg, hit the nail  on the head when they said, that John was Sam wanting to be Dean, and Mary was Dean wanting to be Sam. (Hope I got it right)

But John/Drake has that Sam like pout and Mary/Meg with her Dean like eye rolls. 

[Pondlass1]

Gosh! Hunting’s all so difficult without laptops, Google and cellphones isn’t it? I enjoyed this episode more than the pilot, but there’s still too much dashing about and talking rapidly imo. Slow down. I have to turn on the closed captions.

  The weak link, for me, is Mary.  The fact that she’s  so kickass doesn’t make her ‘Dean’ in my eyes.  She doesn’t relate to either brother yet imo. She doesn’t even relate to the two versions of Mary we got on the original show.   I hope they slow her down and give her some flaws  or she’s going to be a Mary Sue. I do like the actor playing John. He does have bits of Sam and Dean.  Can I see him becoming an obsessed bastard in the future?  Not really. But it doesn’t take much to mess people up does it?

I guess the series will eventually find it’s way and settle down and the characters grow on us.  Hope so. The lighting, music and atmosphere are all top notch. The hellhounds at the end were interesting.  

[Nick24]

4 hours ago, MAK said:

So glad that Carlos and Latika have voices in this show (so far at least) and Mary admits that she needs to listen. Some character growth already.

I really liked how it all was framed. I mean, that conflict wasn't framed like ''Mean Mary was abusing the poor kids''. Her worries were also acknowledged. And the apology was earned. I also liked how Carlos and Latika reacted. They appreciated Mary's effort and Carlos apologized in return. That's very mature, especially considering their age. 

John/Not!Millie scene in the motel also reminded of Dean/Dream!Dean scene in ''Dream a Little Dream of Me''. Dream!Dean was talking about Dean's daddy issues and was trying to mentally break him. This is kinda similar to what was happening here. 

I love that Robbie presents POVs of all the characters without ''blame game''.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Were these really hellhounds at the end? I thought they were the same creatures as the one what jumped onto that man at the beginning of 1.01.

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Were these really hellhounds at the end? I thought they were the same creatures as the one what jumped onto that man at the beginning of 1.01.

They were the same insect-like creatures.  Almost like massively large mutated ants in the way they moved.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

But John/Drake has that Sam like pout and Mary/Meg with her Dean like eye rolls.

Both of these aspects were more Sam-like to me, tbh.

58 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

  The weak link, for me, is Mary.  The fact that she’s  so kickass doesn’t make her ‘Dean’ in my eyes.  She doesn’t relate to either brother yet imo

I think Dean is more difficult to capture because Jensen's stamp on the character is very, very difficult to match/emulate, if not impossible; so the writing is that much more important for Meg's character, IMO-which makes it a good thing that the writing so far has been decent for all the characters.

I DO feel that John is being written much more sympathetically than Mary, however, as he is the one of the two leads(likely in the writers' eyes, at least) who needed more softening in order to become more sympathetic to the viewers, both old and new.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

Regarding Momster Millie's words, little kids who are abandoned by a parent or whose parent dies, often think it's because THEY did something wrong.  Even though there is no sensible reason for them to believe it, that's how they feel.  That if only they had been better or hadn't eaten that candy they were told not to eat, somehow that would saved their parent or kept their parent from leaving, so if John on some subconscious level believed Henry left because somehow John wasn't good enough, that would actually be pretty normal.  And shows The Winchesters is considering the psychological side of all this, which is in keeping with Supernatural back then.

I don't think Mary is presented without flaws, she already made mistakes in this episode, she was called out and she apologized, kind of the opposite of a Mary Sue.  The difference between this and Original recipe SPN is that so far they aren't trying to paint anyone as the bad guy.  John may be Sam-like but one thing he doesn't have so far is smugness. Mary had a couple of scenes where she was really sweet, the one in the van after the Zombie hunt esp comes to mind - John was upset by how he'd done in the hunt, she noticed, asked him how he was and supported and encouraged him.  And yeah Dean wasn't really a big eye-roller esp early on, before all the good writers left and we were left with newbies who seemed to not realize that Dean UNDERMINED the stereotype of the type of character he appeared to be on the surface, he wasn't an example of it.

Edited October 19, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Nick24]

23 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

John may be Sam-like but one thing he doesn't have so far is smugness.

This! Sam has had this smugness since Episode 1 unlike John here.

Actually, there might be some similarities between John and Dean here. This episode made it clear that John has some issues with his self-esteem. John is questioning himself, if he can do this or not, if he is supposed to be a hunter or not. He doesn't seem to be so sure about his skills anymore. Of course, Dean had much deeper self-worth issues, but still.

Also, that John's subconscious blaming himself for Herny's abandonment reminds of Dean in some way, because Dean almost always blamed himself for pretty much everything happening around him. 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Actually, there might be some similarities between John and Dean here. This episode made it clear that John has some issues with his self-esteem. John is questioning himself, if he can do this or not, if he is supposed to be a hunter or not. He doesn't seem to be so sure about his skills anymore. Of course, Dean had much deeper self-worth issues, but still.

Also, that John's subconscious blaming himself for Herny's abandonment reminds of Dean in some way, because Dean almost always blamed himself for pretty much everything happening around him. 

Both John and Dean have self-worth issues, but coming from different places.  

John has--reasonable--doubts about his abilities, because he's suddenly been thrust into a situation that's completely foreign to him.  He's used to being in control of himself (at least, knowing what needs to be done) and all of a sudden, he's the only one in the group that doesn't know what the hell is going on/what to do.  It's unsettling, but it's something that will go away over time as he gets more knowledgeable about monsters and hunting.  He does have the ability to adapt and learn quickly.  He seems to make friends easily and is obviously very likeable.

Dean never had any doubts about his hunting skills and abilities. His insecurity comes from interpersonal relationships: the feeling/knowledge that "everyone leaves him" which to the insecure person means that there's something inherently wrong/unlikeable about him.  It's why he clings on to family, because they're *supposed* to love you/stick with you, no matter what, and why he's so destroyed when they don't.  

John most likely has abandonment issues from Henry's disappearance; but he did have Millie and a stable life and, I assume, friends.  I'd guess he joined the military to prove to himself that Henry *would have* been proud of him if he'd stuck around, and now he's feeling lost and stupid in his new situation.  (Since he joined the military at 17 or so, do we assume he also didn't finish high school?  Do you think that's where Dean decided it was OK to get his GED?)  

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I DO feel that John is being written much more sympathetically than Mary, however, as he is the one of the two leads(likely in the writers' eyes, at least) who needed more softening in order to become more sympathetic to the viewers, both old and new.

John did need to be made more likeable/understandable in order to be accepted by SPN viewers, though not necessarily the new viewers without the SPN baggage.  I do think, however, if done properly, it's a perfect way to show how he went from this kinder, gentler John to the drill sergeant he was in the Mothership.   A journey, not the flip of a switch just from Mary's death, which will give him more depth.  Mary doesn't really have the need to show any change.  Season 12-14 Mary was just an older, stronger version of younger hunter Mary, though I would really like seeing more depth to her character.  Maybe when she's not being driven by worry over Samuel we'll be able to see someone more relatable.

[Nick24]

32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Dean never had any doubts about his hunting skills and abilities. His insecurity comes from interpersonal relationships: the feeling/knowledge that "everyone leaves him" which to the insecure person means that there's something inherently wrong/unlikeable about him.  It's why he clings on to family, because they're *supposed* to love you/stick with you, no matter what, and why he's so destroyed when they don't.  

Unfortunately, the problem is that Dean's family is the reason why Dean had all those self-worth issues. That's all coming from the way how horrible John was treating Dean, then Sam's awful attitude toward Dean (S4, 5.05, S8-9 (esp. 9.13), etc.), later even Bobby and Castiel, Resurrected Mary. If it wasn't for them, Dean wouldn't have had such deep self-worth issues, because the other people showed him respect, admiration, were acknowledging his value (e.g., Benny, Amara in S11).

As for John, yes, this is more about his own overthinking about what Henry might have been thinking about him, why he'd left, etc.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Nick24

[Lastcall]

The episode was good but was a little too generic. The story was very the very basic monster of the week episode they would throw into the later episode seasons of the Mothership for a little break. I thought the first few episodes would be more character based and let us get to know them all a little better. This episode, everyone comes off as stock characters with everyone going straight into their roles. They act like they have all been a team for years and are just bringing the new guy up to speed. John is the rookie, Mary is the leader, Lata is the brain and Carlos is the wildcard. They aren't exploring their motivations as much as I would like. It just comes off as an average random episode. Good but nothing that really stands out. 

That being said, Robbie's strong point is monsters and lore. I love what he is doing with new original monsters that are more than a set of contact lenses with weird teeth or nails.  Loved hearing about Mimics, enjoyed the Zombies and the main monster was interesting and based on some really interesting folklore. Definitely, his strong suit. Loving the show on that alone. Was very disappointed by the viewer drop off and am more worried that there really wasn't much in this episode to attract more viewers in the future. 

[MAK]

10 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

And yeah Dean wasn't really a big eye-roller esp early on,

13 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Both of these aspects were more Sam-like to me, tbh.

Agree to both.

My original comment about the eye rolls being Dean-like, was meant to point towards how Dean (superficially at least) reacts to Sam's bookishness. Kind of how Mary treats Latika. Even though Mary did jump to conclusions quickly this episode, she was proven wrong and apologized. Like Dean, she understands the necessity of research, just doesn't want to be the one doing it, and is irritated when it takes time. 

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, Lastcall said:

The episode was good but was a little too generic. The story was very the very basic monster of the week episode they would throw into the later episode seasons of the Mothership for a little break. I thought the first few episodes would be more character based and let us get to know them all a little better. This episode, everyone comes off as stock characters with everyone going straight into their roles. They act like they have all been a team for years and are just bringing the new guy up to speed. John is the rookie, Mary is the leader, Lata is the brain and Carlos is the wildcard. They aren't exploring their motivations as much as I would like. It just comes off as an average random episode. Good but nothing that really stands out. 

That being said, Robbie's strong point is monsters and lore. I love what he is doing with new original monsters that are more than a set of contact lenses with weird teeth or nails.  Loved hearing about Mimics, enjoyed the Zombies and the main monster was interesting and based on some really interesting folklore. Definitely, his strong suit. Loving the show on that alone. Was very disappointed by the viewer drop off and am more worried that there really wasn't much in this episode to attract more viewers in the future. 

I thought it was well known but apparently not.  Right now Verizon Fios and Nextstar are in the midst of a major disagreement, as they could not come to terms, Verizon has dropped 13 CW stations in East Coast markets with millions of potential viewers.

I thought the Monster of the Week felt very early seasons, not later seasons.  Supernatural started off with monsters of the week, every week for most of the first couple seasons. They haven't been a team for years but Mary, Carlos and Lata have worked together before and seem to know each other quite well, John's really the only new element to the group.

Edited October 20, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

Like Dean, she understands the necessity of research, just doesn't want to be the one doing it, and is irritated when it takes time. 

As for Dean, I'm not sure about that. For instance, in ''Baby'' Dean knew the quote, which means he had read about it of his own will. In 12.02 Dean knew the technique Toni used on Mary, so again he had read about that without anyone forcing him to. So, this isn't necessary about Dean not wanting to do research. Dean might've been showing that irritation, because he didn't want to demonstrate his intelligence, because he didn't want to look better/smarter than the others. 

As for Mary, in this particular episode that irritation was coming rather from her desire to go look after Samuel right away IMO. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

1 hour ago, Nick24 said:

As for Dean, I'm not sure about that.

Taking my response to SPN - Dean Winchester AKA Squirrel 

Edited October 20, 2022 by MAK
Wrong thread

[Lastcall]

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I thought it was well known but apparently not.  Right now Verizon Fios and Nextstar are in the midst of a major disagreement, as they could not come to terms, Verizon has dropped 13 CW stations in East Coast markets with millions of potential viewers.

I thought the Monster of the Week felt very early seasons, not later seasons.  Supernatural started off with monsters of the week, every week for most of the first couple seasons. They haven't been a team for years but Mary, Carlos and Lata have worked together before and seem to know each other quite well, John's really the only new element to the group.

Didn’t know about the Verizon thing, hope that factors in when they decide The Winchesters future. I’m curious how that will factor in with the other shows, the show has a chance if it can stay near the top of the list instead of the middle or worse.

The episode itself just felt like an old SPN script that was lying around that got repurposed for the new show. Like they decided John and Mary are basically Sam and Dean so they can just write the stories they way they always did. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the story, but I would like a little more character development though. I’m not a fan of how quickly John accepts everything. It might be unfair to compare actors but I really liked how Matt Cohen showed how much John was struggling to process everything that was going on and that the supernatural exists. Drakes John was freaked out for about a minute and was fine with everything after Mary said “Oh that’s a demon...all the monsters you’ve ever heard of are real”. There’s no fear, wonder, awe, anger or anything, only an “Hmm, guess I have a new mission now”. John didn’t even really react to his Mom knowing about all of it and never telling him. It just seems like Robbie rushed through all of that because he just wants to get to the story (and I can understand that considering how big the cast is).

[tessathereaper]

I don't know I guess actually seeing smoke come out of some guys mouth after his eyes turned black was convincing enough for him.  And from what I can tell, John WANTS to be believe, so to speak.  He came back from the war and he needs something else and this came along.  It gives him a purpose, something important, something unique and it ties him to the father who he thought abandoned him but who as it now turns out seems to have had some higher purpose.  His mom knew about the Men of Letters but it doesn't seem like she actually knew a lot of details and she didn't know he'd died and hadn't just taken off.  She herself may well have had some thoughts of "If only I'd said "I love you" maybe he wouldn't have left", people of any age can be susceptible to that sort of thinking.  

The show is the devolution of John Winchester to some extent so I think we'll see that maybe it isn't so healthy for him to have gotten into it so quickly and with so little convincing.

[tennisgurl]

This was a really good follow up to the pilot! We got a cool new, thematically appropriate monster, an awesome soundtrack, late 70s fashion being on point, and I continue to really like the characters and their group dynamics. Age of Aquarius and Teach Your Children were both perfectly used, Teach Your Children was especially appropriate given the themes. 

I continue to be surprised at how invested in John and Mary so quickly, you can definitely see a lot of their sons in them right away but neither of them seem like obvious carbon copies. John seems more like Sam and Mary more like Dean at first glance, but I think that for the most part their traits are rather mixed together. Knowing what happens gives the show a sort of bittersweet quality, as much as I grow to like Mary and John and their blossoming romance, we all know that it ends pretty horribly for them. Oh yeah, I saw Mary in that white dress, that was a big ouch on the foreshadowing. She looks very cute in white, but that is SO not her color...

I like the parallels between Dean starting out the show looking for John by tracing his steps through various hunts and Mary doing the same with her dad, it makes me wonder if she will have a similar arc where she realizes that the dad she's chasing isn't quite the guy the thought he was, we certainly know that Samuel was not exactly a flawless sort of person, to put it mildly. 

And of course, all of the parallels between John and his issues with his dad and the issues his sons will have with him, its all just so tragic, and none of it needed to be this way. I can totally buy that John still feels like it must be his fault somehow that his dad left, I think that for a lot of kids its easy to put blame on themselves if a parent leaves them or treats them badly, there is no real reason its just what they think, maybe because kids tend to see their parents through only the scope of "this is my parent" so since they can only see their parent as they relate to them, they assume that if their parent leaves or isn't a good parent, its something that kid must have done, not something that is going on with their parent. Even as an adult, you can intellectually know that your parent leaving you wasn't your fault, there could still be that tiny little bit that feels like if you had been different, they wouldn't have left, even if you can rationalize how little sense that makes. You can also see how John would think that his dad somehow decided that, as a toddler, he wasn't good enough to be a hunter after seeing how Mary's dad trained her, and how much that feels like a rejection, even if we know what really happened with Henry. Its this feeling of guilt that doesn't make logically sense but can just fester in someone's head emotionally, like we will later see so much with Dean, who spent so much of his life blaming himself for everything that happened to his family, even if intellectually he had to have known that there was nothing he could have done for his mom and to make his father be a better parent. 

I continue to really like Carlos and Latika, they both have a ton of personality and don't just feel like John and Mary's backup singers. I am also thrilled that they are just normal people fighting monsters, no powers or ancient legacies or special destinies, just people trying to do good. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Casseiopeia]

36 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And of course, all of the parallels between John and his issues with his dad and the issues his sons will have with him, its all just so tragic, and none of it needed to be this way

The only problem is the timeline this John and Mary are currently in is a different timeline than the og series. Using the Chris Pine Star Trek movies analogy the brothers won't be the same if they are born at all in this timeline. In the Star Trek movie George died when Jim was born and as a result the younger brother was never born.  This John will be  very different to SPN's John in 1983. He will have the knowledge of the MOL's and hunting monsters.  He and Mary might not even have children or they might be Samantha and Deanna. . And this in no way will "erase" or screw with canon and lore of the og series as Jensen and Robbie promised.  The whole destiny can't be changed is from the og series won't to apply here either. This John won't influence the og Sam and Dean in any way.  It's a completely different story...it has to be.

My point is that in order for the series to continue the original series has to stay a different timeline to the one TW is in. If this timeline is corrected or married back to the original series then the The Winchesters series is over or canon and lore will be changed. I don't think that is the end game Robbie and Jensen have in mind.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[Casseiopeia]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:24 AM, SueB said:

So Supernatural was founded upon Daddy Issues.

In this case though it looks like John has mother issues. 

On 10/19/2022 at 12:44 AM, Nick24 said:

It's not about Henry. I'm talking about John and his perception of his father's actions. I just think that not!Millie's speech wasn't for nothing. 

It really looks like John has issues with Millie more than Henry. The notMillie made it sound like real Millie was putting a guilt trip on John. And we already saw some of that from Millie.

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I’m not a fan of how quickly John accepts everything. It might be unfair to compare actors but I really liked how Matt Cohen showed how much John was struggling to process everything that was going on and that the supernatural exists. Drakes John was freaked out for about a minute and was fine with everything after Mary said “Oh that’s a demon...all the monsters you’ve ever heard of are real”. There’s no fear, wonder, awe, anger or anything, only an “Hmm, guess I have a new mission now”

Actually, young John in "The Song Remains the Same" has much less of a reaction to learning that the supernatural exists than John does in this show. That John says incredulously, "Monsters? Monsters are real?", but then immediately moves on to demand how long Mary has been fighting them. He is stunned and upset, not from learning that monsters are real, but because he has just learned that his wife has kept secret from him a whole big part of who she really is. He is very hurt and angry in "The Song Remains" that she has lied to him, a factor that obviously does not apply in this case.

A few minutes later he is insisting that Dean show him how to draw the angel sigil with his own blood in order to protect them all. Dean starts to explain to him what the sigil means, and John cuts him off: "I don't care what it means. Where does it go?" He adds angrily, "You all might have treated me like a fool, but I am not useless. I can draw a damn sigil!" So his reaction is less, "How can supernatural things be real, and what does that mean?" and more, "How do we fight them? Show me!" It is a very practical and hardheaded way of reacting, also showing his determination to not be left out of the fight, and in that sense his reaction in the Pilot fits pretty well with what we have already seen.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Bergamot

[Nick24]

34 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

My point is that in order for the series to continue the original series has to stay a different timeline to the one TW is in. If this timeline is corrected or married back to the original series then the The Winchesters series is over or canon and lore will be changed. I don't think that is the end game Robbie and Jensen have in mind.

Taking to speculations thread.

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Actually, young John in "The Song Remains the Same" has much less of a reaction to learning that the supernatural exists than John does in this show. That John says incredulously, "Monsters? Monsters are real?", but then immediately moves on to demand how long Mary has been fighting them. He is stunned and upset, not from learning that monsters are real, but because he has just learned that his wife has kept secret from him a whole big part of who she really is. He is very hurt and angry in "The Song Remains" that she has lied to him, a factor that obviously does not apply in this case.

A few minutes later he is insisting that Dean show him how to draw the angel sigil with his own blood in order to protect them all. Dean starts to explain to him what the sigil means, and John cuts him off: "I don't care what it means. Where does it go?" He adds angrily, "You all might have treated me like a fool, but I am not useless. I can draw a damn sigil!" So his reaction is less, "How can supernatural things be real, and what does that mean?" and more, "How do we fight them? Show me!" It is a very practical and hardheaded way of reacting, also showing his determination to not be left out of the fight, and in that sense his reaction in the Pilot fits pretty well with what we have already seen.

Yeah, I watched the scene on YouTube with Dean and John. John just seemed more rattled by everything. Frustrated that he was lied to, processing everything that happened, feeling like he wasn't of any use. In the Pilot, he was in hunter mode almost immediately. I understand that this series doesn't have the advantages the old one did. The original only had two characters and they were in almost every scene. There was plenty of time to get to know them, their personalities and their relationship. They also had the benefit of a simple starting story where they were just searching for their dad. There weren't end of the world stakes, they just were looking for leads on where John was. The new one has four main characters as well as side characters and guest stars. There just isn't enough time to develop them as much as they did with Sam and Dean particularly when you are doing an end of existence storyline with extremely high stakes. But I know there is a character centric episode coming up and the original run didn't hit every episode out of the park either. I would compare this episode more to Dead in the Water from Season one of the old show.

[Bobcatkitten]

This one didn't grab me as much as the pilot but I still enjoyed it. 

[MAK]

Just wondered, did anyone pay for the gas to fill up the van while John was talking to Millie?

Also, where are they getting money? Did they mention credit cards? Mary wouldn't have one, and John hasn't been home long enough to open an account and stuff. Does Mary get an allowance? 

Carlos seems to live out of van with no fixed address, but where does Latika live? 

Little things that I want to know more about.

[tessathereaper]

20 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

The only problem is the timeline this John and Mary are currently in is a different timeline than the og series. Using the Chris Pine Star Trek movies analogy the brothers won't be the same if they are born at all in this timeline. In the Star Trek movie George died when Jim was born and as a result the younger brother was never born.  This John will be  very different to SPN's John in 1983. He will have the knowledge of the MOL's and hunting monsters.  He and Mary might not even have children or they might be Samantha and Deanna. . And this in no way will "erase" or screw with canon and lore of the og series as Jensen and Robbie promised.  The whole destiny can't be changed is from the og series won't to apply here either. This John won't influence the og Sam and Dean in any way.  It's a completely different story...it has to be.

My point is that in order for the series to continue the original series has to stay a different timeline to the one TW is in. If this timeline is corrected or married back to the original series then the The Winchesters series is over or canon and lore will be changed. I don't think that is the end game Robbie and Jensen have in mind.

Except we know that it's all going to match up eventually, canon isn't going to change, so no that doesn't have to happen and there are plenty of ways for that to happen that are in keeping with canon.  This John and Mary are still John and Mary, their personalities are still essentially the same so yeah they can still influence Dean and Sam.

But even so, John didn't need to not know about hunting and monsters for him to turn into an abusive asshole after she died because he was so focused on revenge.  That absolutely isn't necessary.  John could know about hunting and react in exactly the same way. 

To compare it to other stories it's like one of those fantasy stories where the kid or the teenager is always arguing with their mother or father, usually mother or father is very serious, working all the time, etc, etc then they somehow find themselves meeting their parent's younger self, maybe when they were around the same age as they are now, and the parent is much more lighthearted and funloving or adventurous, etc  Why?  Because life changed them or they let life change them into the parent the kid knows.  Or heck speaking of the specific era, how often was there story about the parent who was a hippie free spirit but by the 80's when their teenager knows them, they've become some Yuppie who is all about appearances and making money? Usually involved an old friend stopping by who was still a hippie free spirit or finding an old photo album or diary and them finding out what their parents were like when they were young(Being a teenager in the 80s I remember plenty of shows or movies with an episode or storyline like that, it wasn't all Family Ties with the conservative kids and the hippie parents)

That's essentially what we are seeing here.  

[roamyn]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:45 AM, Pondlass1 said:

The weak link, for me, is Mary.  The fact that she’s  so kickass doesn’t make her ‘Dean’ in my eyes.  She doesn’t relate to either brother yet imo. She doesn’t even relate to the two versions of Mary we got on the original show.   I hope they slow her down and give her some flaws  or she’s going to be a Mary Sue. I do like the actor playing John. He does have bits of Sam and Dean.  

I have to agree with this.

Amy & Samantha were very much alike in looks and the way they portrayed Mary.

Meg's eyebrows bug me, for one.  But I also don't think she's that good of an actress.  She's plating Mary very hard, with little of the softness and desire to be 'normal'.

I also have a problem w/Ada.  The actress is fine, but if Henry disappeared 15 yrs ago, and Ada worked with him...why isn't she portrayed by an older actress?

Everyone else is great, esp Drake.

And the music so far is spot on.  Esp in this episode.

I want to believe that was Rowena, but I don't recall Rowena wearing so many rings.  Also why would Hell Hounds be following her?  Could it be Crowley before he jumped into the "relatively successful literary agent "?

BTW John was eight when Henry disappeared, not four.

[MAK]

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

The actress is fine, but if Henry disappeared 15 yrs ago, and Ada worked with him...why isn't she portrayed by an older actress?

She's 43, a couple of years younger than the actress who plays Millie.  Henry would have been around the same age.

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

BTW John was eight when Henry disappeared, not four.

Just curious, but how does this work? I thought in SPN, John was born in 1954, and Henry (and MoL) disappeared in 1958. Did I miss something they mentioned in this episode? 

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, roamyn said:

Amy & Samantha were very much alike in looks and the way they portrayed Mary.

As for looks, it’s true that Samantha and Amy are both blonde women with regular, attractive features, but beyond that I never thought there was a striking resemblance between the two actresses. Anyway that is not as important to me if the actor can capture the essence of the character that they are portraying. I’ve always thought that Dylan Everett, in spite of the fact that he didn’t resemble Jensen physically (and yes, his eyebrows are very different!), absolutely nailed it when he played young Dean in the “Bad Boys” and “About A Boy” episodes. I felt like he understood the character and I totally bought him as Dean.

I haven’t seen enough of Meg as Mary yet after only 2 episodes to really make up my mind yet, but so far I feel like her portrayal is closer to Samantha Smith’s Mary than Amy Gumenick was. I have nothing whatsoever against Amy; I loved the actress and to be honest I always wished that they had brought her back as Mary when she was resurrected by Amara, rather than using Samantha.

But of the three actresses, I feel as if Amy is the outlier, while Meg is more what I would expect from seeing Samantha's Mary. Amy’s Mary was very sweet and girlish, with a gentleness to her that was very appealing, but maybe doesn’t fit with all we know of the character. So far I am not having a problem with either the way Mary is being written or the way that Meg is playing her (which of course are two different things.)

[LadyIrony]

So boring and unengaging. I still don't care about any of the characters and I fell asleep half way in and woke up at the end for the corny Hippy ending. This show comes across as a weak imitation of the Supernatural series. 

[roamyn]

10 hours ago, MAK said:

Just curious, but how does this work? I thought in SPN, John was born in 1954, and Henry (and MoL) disappeared in 1958. Did I miss something they mentioned in this episode? 

Based on ‘As TIme Goes By’, where we meet Henry.

John is clearly not a four year old, the picture Henry carried showed a young boy, not a pre schooler, and Henry took John to see Abbott & Costello Meet the Mummy.  Not something you take a four yr old to.

If 1954 came from the headstone in ‘WIAWSB’, then we have to take that with a grain of salt, because Dean was imagining that life.  Otherwise, I don’t know where 1954 came from, but it has to be incorrect due to Henry’s actual stories/memories.

[roamyn]

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

But of the three actresses, I feel as if Amy is the outlier, while Meg is more what I would expect from seeing Samantha's Mary. Amy’s Mary was very sweet and girlish, with a gentleness to her that was very appealing, but maybe doesn’t fit with all we know of the character.

See I see it different.  Samantha also played a softness, gentleness to Mary.  And Amy played Mary as a badass, as well.  I believe both actresses were able to channel that calm interior, yet tough exterior.

So far, I’m not liking what I see of Meg’s portrayal.  And it may be the writing, I certainly was very critical when the writers brought Mary back.

and most fans that I’ve talked to, watched believe that Amy & Samantha resemble one another enough to make it believable.

Unlike MP’s & TW’s Samuel.  That casting is a joke.

[7kstar]

39 minutes ago, roamyn said:

See I see it different.  Samantha also played a softness, gentleness to Mary.  And Amy played Mary as a badass, as well.  I believe both actresses were able to channel that calm interior, yet tough exterior.

So far, I’m not liking what I see of Meg’s portrayal.  And it may be the writing, I certainly was very critical when the writers brought Mary back.

I'm still having an issue with this, Mary.  She did improve, but something's off.  I did like this ep more.  The music was so spot on and added to the characters. 

On 10/19/2022 at 4:51 PM, Lastcall said:

This episode, everyone comes off as stock characters with everyone going straight into their roles. They act like they have all been a team for years and are just bringing the new guy up to speed. John is the rookie, Mary is the leader, Lata is the brain and Carlos is the wildcard. They aren't exploring their motivations as much as I would like. It just comes off as an average random episode. Good but nothing that really stands out. 

For those that were worried that John wouldn't be a rookie in hunting, I do think they are showing that part well. 

We got some nice character moments but I agree they are having to split so much with more characters vs just 2 leads that it is making it weaker.  Still it has the nice early vibe of Supernatural.  I'm hoping it will continue to build and become more satisfying.

I'm also seeing something new, John and Millie may have issues but they are being allowed to be capable of having growth in their relationship.  I hope that contines and doesn't fall back into they didn't learn anything and just rinse and repeat issues.

16 hours ago, roamyn said:

want to believe that was Rowena, but I don't recall Rowena wearing so many rings.  Also why would Hell Hounds be following her?  Could it be Crowley before he jumped into the "relatively successful literary agent "?

Didn't think it was a character that we know.  I also never saw Hell Hounds.  Guess Halloween is influencing me as I saw creepy spiders.

On 10/20/2022 at 2:02 PM, Casseiopeia said:

My point is that in order for the series to continue the original series has to stay a different timeline to the one TW is in. If this timeline is corrected or married back to the original series then the The Winchesters series is over or canon and lore will be changed. I don't think that is the end game Robbie and Jensen have in mind.

But you're ignoring how the original played with timelines all the time.  Heck, they wiped Mary's mind and made her believe that the angels watching over them was a good thing.  For now, I'm willing to wait and see.  We may even find out why this Mary seems so off compared to Amy's Mary.

I didn't start Supernatural until Season 3 at the very end, so perhaps because I already had an idea of who Sam and Dean were...It colored my impression of season 1. 

So far for me, the Supernatural pilot seemed stronger.  But Carlos is quickly becoming a standout for me..  I'd give the show a 7 so I'll give it a few more eps before I pass judgment.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

Based on ‘As TIme Goes By’, where we meet Henry.

John is clearly not a four year old, the picture Henry carried showed a young boy, not a pre schooler, and Henry took John to see Abbott & Costello Meet the Mummy.  Not something you take a four yr old to.

If 1954 came from the headstone in ‘WIAWSB’, then we have to take that with a grain of salt, because Dean was imagining that life.  Otherwise, I don’t know where 1954 came from, but it has to be incorrect due to Henry’s actual stories/memories.

I can't tell ages of kids from pictures (except that the view we had of Sam in Bad Boys was *clearly* not a 12-year-old. ☺️)  So I don't think they're that concerned with the way the kids look.  

About the other things:  Henry said John saw the scary movie in the drive-in.  I remember my parents taking my sister and me to drive ins in our pajamas, so that we could run around in the playground (with other kids in pajamas) and watch the cartoons before the main show and then go to sleep in the back seat before the feature started.  Age doesn't matter then.  But I have to believe that the 1954 on John's headstone in WIAWSNB is accurate.  It may have been a construct of the djinn, but he got his information from Dean's memories, and surely Dean knew his dad's birthday.  

Also 1954 fits better with the rest of this story (aside from it being accepted in the Supernatural Wiki).  That means that John was 18 or 19 in the pilot here, which fits with him joining the military before he was legal (if he was gone 2 years by 1972, and was 8 in 1958, he would have been 20 when he joined and 22 by the time of the pilot.) 

[Aeryn13]

Finally watched it.

I'm always glad to get a new monster. Something SPN got away from in later years.

Nightgown!Mary was kind of distracting, maybe because the look is kinda iconic for Supernatural.

Other than that count me as someone who likes this Mary and the portrayal of the actress. She might be tough (and less kind than Amy's Mary) but miles nicer than soulless brought back Mary (who I had issues with the acting because playing the terrible writing up to 11 made it worse). This version is young and somewhat brash but not unkind.

I know they were trying to parallel Mary as a headstrong leader with Dean (and are going in general for a John/Sam and Mary/Dean parallel) but ironically in this episode specifically I didn’t see her much as Dean.

Why? What was one of Dean's core elements when they went "undercover" somewhere? He really took to it and had fun with the environment. He was a prime LARPer and enjoyed it. Mary doesn't have that. She is very no-nomsense. Maybe it comes from John (though he didn't much show it either) or maybe from another family member. 

The 4 characters still have a good vibe together. And John, for a noob, already shows great potential as a hunter.

.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Aeryn13

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, roamyn said:

See I see it different.  Samantha also played a softness, gentleness to Mary.  And Amy played Mary as a badass, as well.  I believe both actresses were able to channel that calm interior, yet tough exterior.

Interesting! Yes, we definitely see things differently! Although when I think about who Mary is from Samantha’s portrayal of her, I do not include the Mary of “What Is and What Should Never Be” or the Mary of “Dark Side of the Moon” as showing us the “real Mary”.  I feel like both of those were creations pulled together from the idea of Mary inside Dean’s head, based on idealized memories of his mother from his 4 year old self.

So when I look at Samantha’s Mary, there is that brief scene at the beginning of the pilot before she dies on the ceiling, which doesn’t really show us much of anything as far as characterization, and then we have the Mary who was brought back by Amara. And honestly I do not see a softness or gentleness in Samantha’s Mary, at all. 

Basically I found her to be cold and unlikeable, and when she called herself “closed off and hard” in a conversation with Dean, I totally agreed with her. I would agree that she had a tough exterior, but I never saw any sign that there were hidden depths beneath the surface with her. She was all surface.

Amy’s Mary was definitely sweet and likeable, and when we first met her she seemed much more like a normal teenager than any of the younger hunters I can think of, such as Jo Harvelle or the Campbell cousins – or Dean and Sam, for that matter.  She could fight, but I wouldn’t say she had a tough exterior, and she seemed very open and emotional. I’m not sure that I can see the continuity between her Mary and Samantha’s Mary; they almost seem like different characters to me.

Meg’s Mary does seem tough to me, and I can see her as someone who was trained as a hunter to kill monsters from childhood. She seems to me like someone who is used to protecting herself, both physically and emotionally, from the hardships and darkness that come from being a hunter. There may be vulnerabilities beneath that shell that we haven’t seen yet. Whether the actress can carry it off remains to be seen. Of course Jensen was able to create in Dean a character that was both amazingly badass but also incredibly vulnerable, and somehow was able to show this in every episode, but Jensen is extraordinary and what he did with Dean would be hard to replicate.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

This version is young and somewhat brash but not unkind.

Yes, this is a good description of Mary.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

What was one of Dean's core elements when they went "undercover" somewhere? He really took to it and had fun with the environment. He was a prime LARPer and enjoyed it. Mary doesn't have that. She is very no-nomsense. Maybe it comes from John (though he didn't much show it either) or maybe from another family member. 

"No nonsense" is another good way to describe the character. (Of course, few people have the ability to enjoy the little pleasures of life as much as Dean did!) But maybe Mary is more uptight right now because she is worried about Samuel and feeling the burden of responsibility on her shoulders. Also it is easy to believe that she can't wait to leave behind her life as a hunter; she will get the job done, but she is not excited to be doing it.