S01.E02: Teach Your Children Well

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, roamyn said:

Based on ‘As TIme Goes By’, where we meet Henry.

John is clearly not a four year old, the picture Henry carried showed a young boy, not a pre schooler, and Henry took John to see Abbott & Costello Meet the Mummy.  Not something you take a four yr old to.

If 1954 came from the headstone in ‘WIAWSB’, then we have to take that with a grain of salt, because Dean was imagining that life.  Otherwise, I don’t know where 1954 came from, but it has to be incorrect due to Henry’s actual stories/memories.

Mary's headstone said 1954 too I think they were supposed to be the same age. So in this series they are supposed to be 18.

I wasn't too much older than 4 when I started watching Abbot&Costello movies, it is a comedy. Back then parents weren't as concerned about what kids watched. Even the  classic Disney movies should have been a bit much for small children.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I wasn't too much older than 4 when I started watching Abbot&Costello movies, it is a comedy. Back then parents weren't as concerned about what kids watched. Even the  classic Disney movies should have been a bit much for small children.

When I was a kid I had nightmares for years about dinosaurs and volcanoes.  It wasn't till I was in my 20s and saw the movie Fantasia that I realized where the nightmares came from.  Apparently my parents took me to see it when I was about 2 or 3.  They didn't even know I remembered it, much less that it affected me.  

[roamyn]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I can't tell ages of kids from pictures (except that the view we had of Sam in Bad Boys was *clearly* not a 12-year-old. ☺️)  So I don't think they're that concerned with the way the kids look.  

About the other things:  Henry said John saw the scary movie in the drive-in.  I remember my parents taking my sister and me to drive ins in our pajamas, so that we could run around in the playground (with other kids in pajamas) and watch the cartoons before the main show and then go to sleep in the back seat before the feature started.  Age doesn't matter then.  But I have to believe that the 1954 on John's headstone in WIAWSNB is accurate.  It may have been a construct of the djinn, but he got his information from Dean's memories, and surely Dean knew his dad's birthday.  

Also 1954 fits better with the rest of this story (aside from it being accepted in the Supernatural Wiki).  That means that John was 18 or 19 in the pilot here, which fits with him joining the military before he was legal (if he was gone 2 years by 1972, and was 8 in 1958, he would have been 20 when he joined and 22 by the time of the pilot.) 

John is clearly not four at the beginning of ‘ATGB’.

That’s proof right there.

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

No nonsense" is another good way to describe the character. (Of course, few people have the ability to enjoy the little pleasures of life as much as Dean did!) But maybe Mary is more uptight right now because she is worried about Samuel and feeling the burden of responsibility on her shoulders. Also it is easy to believe that she can't wait to leave behind her life as a hunter; she will get the job done, but she is not excited to be doing it.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why? What was one of Dean's core elements when they went "undercover" somewhere? He really took to it and had fun with the environment. He was a prime LARPer and enjoyed it. Mary doesn't have that. She is very no-nomsense. Maybe it comes from John (though he didn't much show it either) or maybe from another family member. 

This may be the missing ingredient.  Mary is very by the book, no nonsense let's just get this hunt over with so I can find dad.  John is also, I just want to learn how to do this.  So the only comic relief comes from the other two characters and Carlos is the strongest potential.   So it may not be a fault of the characters set up as they created two very determined and not one that can say hey, lighten up.    Perhaps Carlos will help either John or Mary to lighten up, but this may be what's the issue I have with this Mary and why the OG felt so much more.

Not sure if that makes sense.  Still fighting a migraine.

Edited October 23, 2022 by 7kstar

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, roamyn said:

John is clearly not four at the beginning of ‘ATGB’.

That’s proof right there.

It's not clear to me, so I can't call it proof.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  😊

[MAK]

14 hours ago, roamyn said:

John is clearly not a four year old, the picture Henry carried showed a young boy, not a pre schooler, and Henry took John to see Abbott & Costello Meet the Mummy.  Not something you take a four yr old to.

Can't really go by how a child actor looks. I always thought Brock Kelly looked like a 20 year old and Colin Ford looked 9 year old in After School Special. Doesn't change Dean's and Sam's ages in the episode. I mean they have to go by the actors they get. Especially budget conscious TV shows.

The child actor who played Dean in the Pilot and the actor who played John in As Time Goes By seem similar in age, to me, maybe not to you, but doesn't change their ages in the story.

As someone else said, the date in WIASNB is more likely true because it came from Dean's memories. He would know when his father was born.

As far as the movie, we can't judge parenting styles in the 50s unless we were a parent or a child during that time. My father took my 4 year old to a showing of George of the Jungle (I asked him what he was thinking when they came back) and had to leave in 20 minutes because it scared her. I wouldn't have taken a child to see George of the Jungle. But my father, a child from the 50s, didn't see anything wrong with it.

[catrox14]

To me, Mary is between between Amy Gumenick and Sam Smith's. 

From the jump I've felt like Mary already knows something about John. Which makes me wonder if this is after she made the deal for John's life and before Dean was born.  Like maybe Mary has actually gone back in time herself from 1973 to 1972 to try and change things so that the deal never happens? And Dean is watching her do it all thus the narration?
 

Edited October 23, 2022 by catrox14
spelling matters

[SueB]

On 10/20/2022 at 1:27 PM, tessathereaper said:

The show is the devolution of John Winchester to some extent so I think we'll see that maybe it isn't so healthy for him to have gotten into it so quickly and with so little convincing.

Salient and painful concept. 

[Bergamot]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:52 PM, 7kstar said:

This may be the missing ingredient.  Mary is very by the book, no nonsense let's just get this hunt over with so I can find dad.  John is also, I just want to learn how to do this.  So the only comic relief comes from the other two characters and Carlos is the strongest potential.   So it may not be a fault of the characters set up as they created two very determined and not one that can say hey, lighten up.    Perhaps Carlos will help either John or Mary to lighten up, but this may be what's the issue I have with this Mary and why the OG felt so much more.

I don’t know, neither Mary or John are exactly humorless. We have already seen some tentative light teasing going on between the two of them as they get to know each other. And Mary interacts with Carlos and Latika as you might with a couple of siblings. They bicker and squabble and give each other a hard time. Mary rolled her eyes at Carlos’s excitement at visiting a commune, but she actually joined in with his and Latika’s impromptu performance of “Aquarius”. I thought that was a fun moment, and John as the newbie was kind of on the outside of it, but he was grinning and enjoying it too.

Carlos does seem to be the one who helps the others to lighten up. Often with siblings, different individuals take on a specific role in the family – the responsible one, the smart one, the funny one – and being the one who reminds the others that, to use Dean's phrase, “You know, we are allowed to have fun” seems to be an important role that Carlos plays in this “family”.

I would like to see if there is more to Carlos than what we see on the surface though. In this episode, I was thinking about how pleased he was to hear that they had to go to the commune. Maybe he was thinking that it was a chance to have some fun and wear cool clothes, but I was wondering if there was more to it. Fifty years ago, it would have been even more difficult for someone like Carlos to be accepted for who he is, and I’m sure that he would have often been a target of derision and hatred. Maybe in a commune of hippies who supported peace and love and doing your own thing, he felt like he could just be himself and still fit in.

.

[tessathereaper]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:07 AM, roamyn said:

I have to agree with this.

Amy & Samantha were very much alike in looks and the way they portrayed Mary.

Meg's eyebrows bug me, for one.  But I also don't think she's that good of an actress.  She's plating Mary very hard, with little of the softness and desire to be 'normal'.

I also have a problem w/Ada.  The actress is fine, but if Henry disappeared 15 yrs ago, and Ada worked with him...why isn't she portrayed by an older actress?

Everyone else is great, esp Drake.

And the music so far is spot on.  Esp in this episode.

I want to believe that was Rowena, but I don't recall Rowena wearing so many rings.  Also why would Hell Hounds be following her?  Could it be Crowley before he jumped into the "relatively successful literary agent "?

BTW John was eight when Henry disappeared, not four.

Demetria McKenney who plays Ada is 43 years old, which would make her in her late 20's when she worked with Henry, probably around his own age. Bianca Kajlich who plays Millie is just a couple years older.

On 10/22/2022 at 8:26 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Mary's headstone said 1954 too I think they were supposed to be the same age. So in this series they are supposed to be 18.

I wasn't too much older than 4 when I started watching Abbot&Costello movies, it is a comedy. Back then parents weren't as concerned about what kids watched. Even the  classic Disney movies should have been a bit much for small children.

I was definitely watching Abbott and Costello movies at 4 years old, actually I think my favorite was Hold That Ghost! LOL  

With regards to Meg's Mary, I find she is sweet, it's just not right on the surface and she's been mostly supportive and encouraging of John after her initial attempts to put him off hunting, she apologizes when she's wrong, etc.  And she clearly does love her friends, even if she rolls her eyes sometimes.

No one is Dean Winchester, he's an iconic, one of a kind character, none of them are going to really be "the Dean" of the show.  So the fact that Meg's Mary isn't one for one like Dean doesn't make it a flaw in the portrayal or the character, neither John nor Mary is going to be a one for one match with either of their future children. John's less talking more punching wasn't particularly Sam-like either. 

Meg's Mary definitely imo seems nicer than Sam's Mary once she returned, which is really the only time we saw her as a character.

[7kstar]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:03 AM, MAK said:

As far as the movie, we can't judge parenting styles in the 50s unless we were a parent or a child during that time. My father took my 4 year old to a showing of George of the Jungle (I asked him what he was thinking when they came back) and had to leave in 20 minutes because it scared her. I wouldn't have taken a child to see George of the Jungle. But my father, a child from the 50s, didn't see anything wrong with it.

Remember, there was only G, PG and then R.  Most families went to G rated movies and they weren't all kid movies.  Some had adult issues.  So G wasn't the G of today's standards.  People didn't get so hurt either by what someone said and you could poke fun of people and it wasn't considered rude.  I know as a teacher I had to change what I taught in the late 90's as people got more conservative and what once was okay to show in middle school suddenly wasn't okay.

I do know the 70's but depending on where you lived the 70's could still have a 60's feel.  In my small town, the Southern Baptist had a major hold on the community.  Their hold was so strong that you had to drive 30 miles to buy alcohol.  Doesn't mean kids didn't drink.  Legal age was 18, so a 16-year-old could easily steal from friends and family.  My hometown stayed dry for almost 50 years.   The last five years it started changing and hard liquor can now be bought in town.

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I don’t know, neither Mary or John are exactly humorless. We have already seen some tentative light teasing going on between the two of them as they get to know each other. And Mary interacts with Carlos and Latika as you might with a couple of siblings.

I can see this to a point, but Carlos is the main character that lightens the mood.  He starts it. 

I haven't been drawn to watch an ep twice though.  I've watched it once and had some reactions and forgotten about it.  I'm not attached to this show like I was too Supernatural.  Mary and John aren't pulling me in the same way that Dean did.  Although at the beginning I was a brother fan, Dean still grabbed my attention more.

Carlos seems to be the character is doing that for me in this show.  I'm more interested in learning about his background.  Mary and John need to lighten up more.  I'm glad they showed some fun moments which does help.

For me, something is still off and I can't figure out what the missing ingredient is...I'm just not hooked yet.  Maybe it will change?  I'm not seeing this big love affair between John and Mary, but I'm fine with it building slowly.