S06.E13: Saul Gone

[SimplexFish]

11 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

See, I think (for the sake of comparison) the "Breaking Bad" finale requires way more suspension of disbelief.  You need to believe that Walt MacGuyvers a system to shoot a machine gun, is able to park his vehicle in the exact right spot, has all his enemies in range at the right time before they can go for their weapons and manages to duck and avoid bullets long enough to finish what he started.  It's absolutely preposterous.  But it's great television.

.

Point taken... I would even add the movie "Die Hard", so many missteps in the writing but certainly exciting to watch 

30 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I haven't watched any AntonJackson stuff. He's new to me. I don't know if I'll watch this. Almost an hour and a half. Ugh. I watched the first few minutes, impatient with all the cross-praise. Maybe I'll give it a shot later.

I'm hoping this isn't the Courtney's official review on Sauls Gone, I couldn't get past his glasses even to listen for more than a few mins myself, much less for an hour and 20 mins LOL

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Anything is possible.  But I don't recall Kim looking at dish patterns or having a social circle when she lived in New Mexico.  

Or eating at chain restaurants on a regular basis, especially not on special occasions, lol. She watched old classic movies, not reality tv. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[aghst]

She doesn't have a lawyer's income any more.

If she wanted nice things, she could have pursued another line of work or practice law again.

There was that brief sex scene, with what looked like a fuck buddy.

They didn't live together, didn't have a relationship, just went to some dinners and had sex occasionally.

What Jimmy ruined her for other men?  She had no chance to find a fulfilling relationship?

She wasn't doing pro bono work representing people who otherwise have no resources.  She wasn't trying to prevent seniors from being scammed.

But remember, she got thrills when they were executing the long con.

So what does she do next, go back to her job selling sprinkler fittings or whatever?  Socialize with whatever circle she'd found?

[Cinnabon]

17 minutes ago, aghst said:

She doesn't have a lawyer's income any more.

If she wanted nice things, she could have pursued another line of work or practice law again.

There was that brief sex scene, with what looked like a fuck buddy.

They didn't live together, didn't have a relationship, just went to some dinners and had sex occasionally.

What Jimmy ruined her for other men?  She had no chance to find a fulfilling relationship?

She wasn't doing pro bono work representing people who otherwise have no resources.  She wasn't trying to prevent seniors from being scammed.

But remember, she got thrills when they were executing the long con.

So what does she do next, go back to her job selling sprinkler fittings or whatever?  Socialize with whatever circle she'd found?

I’ve never, ever had anything close to a lawyer’s income. I disagree that I’ve never had any “nice things.” I am, however, highly educated and don’t relate to anyone in Kim’s Florida life. Money has nothing to do with it.  I’m able to watch old movies and avoid reality tv despite not having much $$. Ditto for avoiding chain restaurants (they’re actually way overpriced, imo.)

ETA - I don’t think she was looking for any kind of meaningful relationship by dating that moron. She was punishing herself. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Simon Boccanegra]

22 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Anything is possible.  But I don't recall Kim looking at dish patterns or having a social circle when she lived in New Mexico.  

But much of her life focus in 2002-04 was on building a career, and later on her relationship, which ran parallel. When she's cold-calling all those people in "Rebecca" (oh, so many, many people), she addresses them warmly, like friends, but her comments betray that she's been out of touch with some of them since school, and others she met once when networking at some lawyerly event ("We met at that ABA mixer last year. Yep. Bourbon shots. That was me").

Even Paige, the prospect who ultimately comes through for her, is clearly an acquaintance rather than a close friend. Kim says in her end of the call "I thought we hit it off as well!" (Maybe the "we" is a third party that Paige introduced her to, but I don't think so.) 

In Florida, her context is different. Establishing herself at the sprinkler company couldn't have been as consuming. So she has more of a social life...such as it is. 

[PeterPirate]

4 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

But much of her life focus in 2002-04 was on building a career, and later on her relationship, which ran parallel. When she's cold-calling all those people in "Rebecca" (oh, so many, many people), she addresses them warmly, like friends, but her comments betray that she's been out of touch with some of them since school, and others she met once when networking at some lawyerly event ("We met at that ABA mixer last year. Yep. Bourbon shots. That was me").

Even Paige, the prospect who ultimately comes through for her, is clearly an acquaintance rather than a close friend. Kim says in her end of the call "I thought we hit it off as well!" (Maybe the "we" is a third party that Paige introduced her to, but I don't think so.) 

In Florida, her context is different. Establishing herself at the sprinkler company couldn't have been as consuming. So she has more of a social life...such as it is. 

True, Kim did her fair share of professional networking.  But no indication she did anything socially with any of those people, even Paige.  

[Lalo Lives]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's interesting because to me, looking back, Howard's death is the most important thing in the story. That and Chuck's death are the most important things to happen to Jimmy and on the show. Not because his death was shocking since once Lalo walks in you know it's the only way that can go, but because it's the moment the two sides come together, a true consequence of the games he's been playing. After that he has to go one way or the other, and Kim goes one way, Jimmy the other (because of what she does.)

Nothing here is wrong.

I was giving my initial visceral reaction to 0613 and general opinion of S6.

A more seasoned and/or educated viewer might see things differently.

Btw, re: Anton Jackson's shades.

#1-They made me want to shoot down some alien vessels invading our planet.

And B-Maybe he's got an eye defect or something.

& # 13-Courtney said she would produce her own solo analysis and I feel I've already typed those words and I believe my Life Alert is cutting off my circulationnnnnnnnnnnn......

[ShadowFacts]

38 minutes ago, aghst said:

So what does she do next, go back to her job selling sprinkler fittings or whatever?  Socialize with whatever circle she'd found?

Her brown hair was straight when we first saw her in Florida. By the time she comes to visit Jimmy in prison, it was structured into a kind of curly style. Not the old curly pony, but not plain and relaxed. It may signify something, but I don't know what. She's making some changes. I don't see her in a prison romance with her ex, but who knows.

[PeterPirate]

For those wondering about Courtney, I posted this to her collab with Anton Jackson:

I hope Courtney does her own solo review of the felina.

To which she replied:

I mentioned at the beginning of this video that I am working on it! I was on Pete's livestream Tuesday night and I've always wanted to chat with Anton. As a fan of the show and a fan of other YouTubers, it is a special treat to be able to talk to some of them. I have a few other collabs in the works with other youtubers, TBA.  Breakdown is next on the schedule, though!  

So there won't be another collab before she drops her own analysis.  

But she did ding me for not listening to the video.  

[Ed-]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:47 PM, Sailorgirl26 said:

Folks keep referencing this as though he legitimately thinks it's an option. I think it was said as a bit of gallows humor.

At this point, he has truly owned up to everything and accepted his fate.

I don't think he thinks this is an option--it was  one of those things you say to make light of an awful and/or awkward situation.

When he gave the full confession he knew what it meant and that there would be no "out on good behavior."  

This is yet another way they let us know this was a goodbye between Jimmy and Kim. He was acknowledging that her life was going to be moving on without him in it. 

I agree, for the most part. Where I deviate is I think of Saul as a player, even a bit naive at times, who might evaluate every possibility. What if he gets bored, wants to escape to actual Belize or something, and also a remote opportunity to escape prison presents itself (maybe a weird law loophole)? It is very improbable, but the open-ended nature of the series allows just a bit of leeway to think there are more possibilities than just one. Saul did make a big irrational decision (for his character) largely because it was about Kim. I postulate "he'll never change"™ even in prison, and that the prison is simply a gigantic brake on his recklessness.

[scenario]

My head cannon with Saul in prison is that he plays it straight and is a model prisoner. He runs a few minor scams to make himself more comfortable but doesn't get anyone angry at him. He helps prisoners write their appeals and get's a few innocent or over charged prisoners out. Like a guy getting 20 years for a small quantity of drugs. Some of the gangs ask him to negotiate for them. He's well respected by prisoners and staff.

After about 10 years the Feds have a prisoner they really want. They know the guy's a serial killer like Lalo but can't prove it. He's not part of an organization. He's got a five year sentence on a lesser charge. They talk to Saul and cut him a deal. If he'll help them get the guy, they'll cut his sentence to 15 years. He agrees because no one in the prison likes the guy. They put Saul in the next cell over from him and put microphones to record everything. Saul spends a few months making friends. Then the guy tells Saul everything. The cop dig find 20 bodies of people he killed and try him for those crimes. 

Saul get's out of prison 5 years later when he turns 65. He establishes some sort of relationship with Kim, maybe just friends maybe lovers again. He's still slipping Jimmy but stops himself from doing serious crimes anymore. He uses his talents to be a salesman and is fairly successful at it. He meet's a woman (maybe Kim) and settles down to a boring life. 

[jww]

One of the results of the scam against Howards was Sandpiper withdrew their counter offers and HHM/Davis had to accept their day one original offer so the senior citizens suffered the most since they likely got little.

Just rewatched episode 1, season  1 and Jimmy is telling the skateboarders he used the money from his slip/fall scams  to pay for bartending school.  So it is reasonable to conclude Jimmy never went to college (other than online law school)  and may at most have a GED.  Jimmy/Saul likely is no more likely able to engage in conversation than Kim's current boyfriend.

In episode 1 Jimmy loses the case where he is defending three 19 year olds who vandalized a school biology lab and loses.  Has he ever been shown winning a case?  He flunked the bar exam 5 times.  He is often  shown fast talking a mousey DA  into plea deals but I doubt he is no more capable of writing Federal Court appeals than the average inmate.  Remember in BB he was comic relief like Barry Zuckerkorn (Henry Winkler)   in Arrrested Development.  Walt seldom/never took his advice.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

She's making some changes. I don't see her in a prison romance with her ex, but who knows.

She may visit Saul another time or two and respond a few times to the endless prisoner letters he is bound to write her. Then she will start yup yupping a new fella, maybe get married and disappear to live her life and sooner or later Jimmy will realize what a huge mistake he made.

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[BC4ME]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

My take on her not returning the gesture is that last time she used it was signalling her intent to ruin Howard's reputation, and she will never use it again because of how that worked out. She's turning in her weapons.

I love that interpretation!

I also noticed that in the season six opening where they're emptying Saul's mansion that his large cardboard cut out is also using finger pistols. (Also fun that they put that in the dumpster and Gene is caught in a dumpster.) So it is a reoccurring theme.  

[Ed-]

12 hours ago, scenario said:

My head cannon with Saul in prison is that he plays it straight and is a model prisoner. He runs a few minor scams to make himself more comfortable but doesn't get anyone angry at him. He helps prisoners write their appeals and get's a few innocent or over charged prisoners out. Like a guy getting 20 years for a small quantity of drugs. Some of the gangs ask him to negotiate for them. He's well respected by prisoners and staff.

After about 10 years the Feds have a prisoner they really want. They know the guy's a serial killer like Lalo but can't prove it. He's not part of an organization. He's got a five year sentence on a lesser charge. They talk to Saul and cut him a deal. If he'll help them get the guy, they'll cut his sentence to 15 years. He agrees because no one in the prison likes the guy. They put Saul in the next cell over from him and put microphones to record everything. Saul spends a few months making friends. Then the guy tells Saul everything. The cop dig find 20 bodies of people he killed and try him for those crimes. 

Saul get's out of prison 5 years later when he turns 65. He establishes some sort of relationship with Kim, maybe just friends maybe lovers again. He's still slipping Jimmy but stops himself from doing serious crimes anymore. He uses his talents to be a salesman and is fairly successful at it. He meet's a woman (maybe Kim) and settles down to a boring life. 

This sounds very realistic within the universe.

10 hours ago, BC4ME said:

I love that interpretation!

I also noticed that in the season six opening where they're emptying Saul's mansion that his large cardboard cut out is also using finger pistols. (Also fun that they put that in the dumpster and Gene is caught in a dumpster.) So it is a reoccurring theme.  

Spoiler

https://www.gamesradar.com/better-call-saul-alternate-ending-finger-guns/

[---]

"Well, we shot a couple of different iterations – including ones where she shoots finger guns back at him," Seehorn told Entertainment Weekly(opens in new tab). "It was very small and not animated or with a smile, but still – in the end, [co-creator Peter Gould] decided that it looked too much like they were saying, ‘Kim is back in the game,’ and we really didn't want to give that impression."

Seehorn also gave her own interpretation of the final exchange between the pair, saying, "That moment between them, to me, is much more about the acknowledgement of their bond, that is still there, and the part of their relationship that was true."

Not sure if you are aware aware of this unused alternate ending, but it is an interesting titbit.

[BC4ME]

4 hours ago, Ed- said:

Not sure if you are aware aware of this unused alternate ending, but it is an interesting titbit.

Thanks! I was aware of this but I'm pretending I don't know it. To me, the ending is so beautiful and open to interpretation that I want it to be exactly as the creators intended in the end. This, of all scenes, was the most important to get just right and I appreciate their eventual choice as the right one to end the whole series.

The descent of Jimmy into Saul was very painful, even for the actor. Kim's descent is not as dramatic but still painful. Both characters have a darkness in their past that they carry in their heart as a secret. Somehow they recognize this dark secret in each other even if they don't understand it. Together, the darkness finds its way out despite there being good in each of them. To have an ending scene where there's hope for something better in each of their lives, in each of their hearts, yet on some level their love is still recognized was a happy ending for me. 

The scene where they share a cigarette harkens back to these old feelings of their dark connection. The last scene, for me, indicated a new connection where the good has won out but the love is still there.  Their love finally transcended its dark beginning.

Edited August 20, 2022 by BC4ME

[pawsodoom]

On 8/15/2022 at 11:01 PM, Constantinople said:

You can visit prisoners without fraudulently presenting yourself as an attorney. Kim was identified as an attorney, which means she identified herself as an attorney to federal prison officials. Am I expected to believe that's not a crime?

Perhaps she used the Bar card so they could speak in private. If she went as just a visitor, then wouldn't they be separated by glass and have to use the phone to hear each other?

[gallimaufry]

Although Kim using her bar card to see Jimmy 1:1 probably is criminal (I don't know US law), I think there are some mitigating factors:

1. How much of a responsibility does the prison bear to make proper checks?  I'm reminded of the case in 108 where Jimmy got the Sandpiper documentation and it wasn't breaking and entering because, as he put it, "a hobo could use it as a wigwam".  If she shows the card as identification but doesn't say she's a practising lawyer and they treat her as a lawyer, does that make her responsible or the prison for being negligent?

2. What is the worst punishment she would receive?  She has very little to lose and at this point I don't get the impression she has the vaguest intention of trying to reinstate her law licence.  I think she sees an opportunity to have a true goodbye with Jimmy and takes it.

3.  I happen to think if it were ever contested that she would take full responsibility because that's who she is now.

Now it's true that if you wanted to see Kim go completely straight-arrow, this feels like an element of OldKim that may be unwelcome but... Kim always contained these multitudes and especially where Jimmy was concerned.  Moreover, I think it works in the context of their cigarette scene as their last conspiracy, one which truly is victimless.  It also feels like she's meeting him on his journey: he gave up his freedom to follow the right path and she stepped off the path to show him what it meant to her.  I dunno, I get why people dislike it but it completely works for me.

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, pawsodoom said:

Perhaps she used the Bar card so they could speak in private. If she went as just a visitor, then wouldn't they be separated by glass and have to use the phone to hear each other?

Yes. I can believe she hoped she could use the card as a piece of ID and the assumption would be she was his lawyer and they would get a better visitation set-up. What is more unlikely to me is that smoking would be allowed at all. I think that was banned a long time ago, not sure when this scene is set. They wanted to do the smoking bookend so we can suspend disbelief on this I guess.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned how Gene looked running away in his Elmer Fudd hat with his shoe box. That got me to thinking, I know we've seen Gene looking through his shoe box before, but did we see him have one in his childhood scenes? I can't remember. It would be kind of a sweet callback. But really, Gene, could you have at least put your diamonds in a sealed baggie inside the band aid box?  And had a phone ready?  Especially after Jeffy ID'ed him, he should have been a little more prepared.  He could set up a fake store in the snow and use a stopwatch before the mall thefts, but not have at least a small backpack ready? (Nitpicking now, and always.)

[peeayebee]

I have a vague (questionable) memory of a FB with Jimmy as a kid with the bandaid box. Does anyone else recall this?

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Now it's true that if you wanted to see Kim go completely straight-arrow, this feels like an element of OldKim that may be unwelcome but... Kim always contained these multitudes and especially where Jimmy was concerned.  Moreover, I think it works in the context of their cigarette scene as their last conspiracy, one which truly is victimless.  It also feels like she's meeting him on his journey: he gave up his freedom to follow the right path and she stepped off the path to show him what it meant to her.  I dunno, I get why people dislike it but it completely works for me.

From my perspective their last meeting serves the ending well.  When they are together they flout the rules.  Which is why they need to be apart if they are going to live better lives.  

As things stand it's up to Kim to decide if she wants to maintain any sort of relationship with Jimmy.  She didn't point finger guns back at him (much less go pew! pew!), so I will take that as the final word on their future.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Starchild]

53 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I have a vague (questionable) memory of a FB with Jimmy as a kid with the bandaid box. Does anyone else recall this?

The box is so old that it must be from his childhood. They stopped making metal boxes for bandaids ages ago. It must be, whether we saw it, or just imagine we did.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I have a vague (questionable) memory of a FB with Jimmy as a kid with the bandaid box. Does anyone else recall this?

Good catch.  The box was the one he retrieved with Marco from the ceiling tiles of his parents' store in 308.  He hid rare coins in it including one he used during a scam.

Appropriate I guess that the box is now, for the first time perhaps, empty.  No bandaids left for Saul.

[peeayebee]

Well I kinda sorta remembered it right. :D

[SimplexFish]

By using her Bar Card as "his attorney" they were able to meet totally alone and face to face. If she had just came as a visitor the visit would have been supervised and possibly even thru a thick piece of plexiglass, even recorded or someone listening in.

As his attorney they get privilege's, she was even able to have him uncuffed.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by SimplexFish

[DrSpaceman73]

I view the finales as kind of a continuum with several at the bottom that were just awful including 

Seinfeld, how I met your mother, game of thrones, house of cards. Those were all awful and failures in many ways for different reasons. 

Then there are the very top ones and those include Six feet under as probably the best, mash, Newhart and ok debatable but st elsewhere.  (That one divides people)

Most others fall in vast bell curve middle to one side or another on the adequate to better than average range. Mad Men was above average.  I thought breaking bad was great but not quite in that top group. Ozymandias was outstanding, but technically not the ending. Sopranos controversial but thought it was the better end of of spectrum overall 

This ending I'd put at the better end of the middle of the curve but certainly not in the great or epic group.  Solid. Satisfying in most ways. Somewhat memorable. Ultimately though the highlight of the last season is Howard's shooting, not anything after that. Much like breaking bad good ending but the best episode happened before the finale. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[PeterPirate]

51 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Then there are the very top ones and those include Six feet under as probably the best, mash, Newhart and ok debatable but st elsewhere.  (That one divides people)

I would add The Mary Tyler Moore Show.  

51 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

This ending I'd put at the better end of the middle of the curve but certainly not in the great or epic group.  Solid. Satisfying in most ways. Somewhat memorable. Ultimately though the highlight of the last season is Howard's shooting, not anything after that. Much like breaking bad good ending but the best episode happened before the finale. 

"Solid and satisfying" is a good way to put it.  I'd say that also describes the finale of The West Wing (which I consider to be the GOAT of TV shows).  But with that show we knew how things were going to end.  A lot of people were hoping BCS would end with a redemption, but as far as I know the only people who expected it to wrap up with Kim visiting Jimmy in jail were the Serbian Gals.  

I said once before I thought Fun and Games was the end of BCS, with the Gene sequence as the coda, the way to wrap up the Gilliverse.  That is still true, but these last four episodes turned out to be so much more than that.  This ending allows me to enjoy watching this show, which is not something I could say before.  So to "Solid and satisfying" I would add "Reinvigorating". 

[DrSpaceman73]

39 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I would add The Mary Tyler Moore Show.  

"Solid and satisfying" is a good way to put it.  I'd say that also describes the finale of The West Wing (which I consider to be the GOAT of TV shows).  But with that show we knew how things were going to end.  A lot of people were hoping BCS would end with a redemption, but as far as I know the only people who expected it to wrap up with Kim visiting Jimmy in jail were the Serbian Gals.  

I said once before I thought Fun and Games was the end of BCS, with the Gene sequence as the coda, the way to wrap up the Gilliverse.  That is still true, but these last four episodes turned out to be so much more than that.  This ending allows me to enjoy watching this show, which is not something I could say before.  So to "Solid and satisfying" I would add "Reinvigorating". 

I never saw Mary Tyler Moore or the ending. Before my time.  I'll take your word for it. 

I would add those shows I said with awful endings, I loved all those shows, to a degree.  

I forgot about veep. That was actually a great ending too. A small step below the top group I'd say.  What she did to gary was heartbreaking and really epitomized the type of person she was.  

This was also like say sons of anarchy. Wrapped everything up nice and closed all the storyline,  self sacrifice. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[PurpleTentacle]

On 8/16/2022 at 8:21 PM, Guy Incognito said:

1) Nobody ACTUALLY knew what happened to Hank and Gomez, they only know that Walt said on a recorded line that Hank was not coming back because he got in his way. Their bodies were only found when Walt gave Skyler the coordinates to trade.

2) Once those bodies were found, I suppose law enforcement could assume Walt killed them, but he did tell Skyler that Hank and Gomez were killed by the men who stole his money. I assume there would be an investigation of the site, which would produce thousands of shell casings and bullet fragments from all kinds of guns, showing something big happened there. I would have to assume Skyler would have passed that information along, which also happened to be the men who came into her house and threatened her.

3) Walt was killed in a shootout with a group of guys who would all have serious criminal records. Search of that property likely turns up a shit load of Walt's cash and law enforcement should start to be able to put together what happened, including who really killed Hank. Shell casings from the burial site are for sure going to match weapons found on that property.

4) Nobody was actually charged for murdering Hank and Gomez. Can there be an accessory to a charge that never happens? That I have no idea, but seems unreasonable. But if Walt is not the killer, how could Jimmy ever be an accessory to something Walt did not do?

Correct from a moral standpoint, but I believe during the war on drugs some ridiculous laws were passed, whereby if somebody gets killed while you are committing a crime, you are on the hook for murder. Doesn't matter if you are robbing a bank and a policeman walks up to a hostage and shoots them point blank in the head. It's your ass for murder. They'll probably get suspended with pay for a few months and then just continue working.

So I'm sure they could come up with some kind of bogus construct whereby this was all part of WW's drug operation and so Walt, Jesse and Saul are all on the hook for it, even though Saul never even knew about it, until much, much later.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:20 AM, millennium said:

Saul would suggest Walt send them "to Belize," a euphemism for murder.   As I recall, he proposed that remedy for Badger, Jesse and Skylar.

Thank you. Did not remember that.

I still maintain that that is not in character with the Jimmy we've seen in this show. I mean he could have prevented getting caught by manhandling and tying up an old lady but he couldn't even do that. So it's from an earlier version of the character, that no longer quite fits. But I guess technically it's canon so I have to accept it as such?

[PeterPirate]

Courtney's review of the episode.  

Even after six days she made observations that were new to me.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by PeterPirate

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I still maintain that that is not in character with the Jimmy we've seen in this show. I mean he could have prevented getting caught by manhandling and tying up an old lady but he couldn't even do that. So it's from an earlier version of the character, that no longer quite fits. But I guess technically it's canon so I have to accept it as such?

That's a good point.  There's a gap in the canon that we are supposed to fill in.  

Before Fun and Games I theorized that exposure to criminal clients would add more and more layers of the Saul persona on top of Jimmy.  But what happened is Kim's leaving troweled it on ("we're bad for each other", "we're poison").  She essentially turned Jimmy into a golem.  Since that was the central theme of the series, it precluded showing what happened during the interim before BB.  

Jimmy had already lugged $7 million of cartel money through the desert for Lalo, so it's not that much of a stretch he would take part in other cartel operations.  Maybe he got Emilio off by arranging sending a witness or a rat to Belize.  Emilio  seemed like the type of person who would go for that.    

(I got the golem thing from Courtney.)  

Edited August 21, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Milburn Stone]

On 8/18/2022 at 2:31 PM, PeterPirate said:

...the waterworks start at the 50-minute mark.  

I found the Serbian Girls' reaction to Saul's confession moving, but it was different from mine, and I'm thinking about why. I couldn't get uncomplicatedly emotional about the confession scene because I wasn't sure whether I could trust it to be real. For al these years, Jimmy has not not been running some sort of scam. So I wondered, is this the ultimate scam? What does he have up his sleeve now? I mean, I was dumbstruck, gobsmacked, riveted by the scene, pretty much going OMG the whole time; I just wasn't sure what to make of it. I loved seeing this reaction of two girls who related to it on a more direct level. Thank you.

[peeayebee]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Courtney's review of the episode.  

Even after six days she made observations that were new to me.  

She is so good. This was a great breakdown of the finale. 

[jww]

There is a page at: U.S. Penitentiary Administrative Maximum—ADX Supermax (thoughtco.com)

describing it as:

The all-male prison population at ADX Supermax includes inmates who experienced chronic disciplinary problems while at other prisons, those who have killed other prisoners and prison guards, gang leaders, high-profile criminals, and organized crime mobsters. It also houses criminals who could pose a threat to national security including Al-Qaeda and U.S. terrorist and spies.

The harsh conditions at ADX Supermax have earned it a place in the Guinness Book of World Records as being one of the most secure prisons in the world. From the prison design to the daily operations, ADX Supermax strives for complete control over all prisoners at all times.

So I doubt they would allow a walk-in visitor without having been screened first and on an approved list.

[PurpleTentacle]

7 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

That's a good point.  There's a gap in the canon that we are supposed to fill in.  

Before Fun and Games I theorized that exposure to criminal clients would add more and more layers of the Saul persona on top of Jimmy.  But what happened is Kim's leaving troweled it on ("we're bad for each other", "we're poison").  She essentially turned Jimmy into a golem.  Since that was the central theme of the series, it precluded showing what happened during the interim before BB.  

Jimmy had already lugged $7 million of cartel money through the desert for Lalo, so it's not that much of a stretch he would take part in other cartel operations.  Maybe he got Emilio off by arranging sending a witness or a rat to Belize.  Emilio  seemed like the type of person who would go for that.    

The problem is that we aren't just supposed to accept to fill in gaps. Him not being able to slightly harm an old lady and tie her up, in order to escape the law, was after all of the things in BB happened. So he flip flopped back and forth from not wanting to seriously harm people, to being fine with murder, even recommending it, to not wanting to harm people again, without anything that would really explain it shown on screen.

I don't think it quite fits. Which isn't that surprising considering they made a prequel they hadn't planned for, that they originally conceived as a straight up comedy. It's more surprising that everything else fits as well as it does. But it does leave me in a bit of a bind with judging Jimmy's actions from a moral standpoint.

[Starchild]

I reconcile it thus:

• Jimmy wanted to make himself the criminal lawyer of choice
• Jimmy was uncomfortable with the idea of causing physical harm to people 
• Jimmy was an exceptional judge of character (that's why he was so good at scamming)
• Jimmy was careful to suggest Belize to people he knew would reject it

This way, he enhances his slimy reputation without being responsible for hurting anyone.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Starchild

[peeayebee]

21 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So he flip flopped back and forth from not wanting to seriously harm people, to being fine with murder, even recommending it, to not wanting to harm people again, without anything that would really explain it shown on screen.

I disagree. After Saul became Gene, he went thru a lot of experiences, which we did see, and these experiences affected him. Yes, he did flip-flop -- as we all do. Thruout BCS we saw him be a nice guy, be a disgusting guy, be an ambivalent guy. The big question for the audience was which way he would end up.

[PurpleTentacle]

23 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, he did flip-flop -- as we all do.

I've never seen anybody flip-flop on their stance on murder and violence, to the point where they recommend murdering multiple people at one point and then won't even harm an old lady slightly. Let alone without seeing any inciting incident. You might know different people than me though.

23 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Thruout BCS we saw him be a nice guy, be a disgusting guy, be an ambivalent guy.

There is a big leap from being "a disgusting guy" to being a murderer. Something we've never seen him be throughout BCS.

24 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I reconcile it thus:

• Jimmy wanted to make himself the criminal lawyer of choice
• Jimmy was uncomfortable with the idea of causing physical harm to people 
• Jimmy was an exceptional judge of character (that's why he was so good at scamming)
• Jimmy was careful to suggest Belize to people he knew would reject it

This way, he enhances his slimy reputation without being responsible for hurting anyone.

That is a good way of resolving the problem. I'm going to make that my head-canon.

Edited August 21, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[gallimaufry]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I've never seen anybody flip-flop on their stance on murder and violence, to the point where they recommend murdering multiple people at one point and then won't even harm an old lady slightly. Let alone without seeing any inciting incident. You might know different people than me though.

There is a big leap from being "a disgusting guy" to being a murderer. Something we've never seen him be throughout BCS.

That is a good way of resolving the problem. I'm going to make that my head-canon.

To me, the key difference is that spitballing about murder about people he's never met and doesn't know -- or people who are, as in Jesse's case in S5, really dangerous to him -- is that there's no way he'd actually be pulling the trigger himself.  In 612, he was put in the position where he would have to do the deed himself.  It's like, you might buy a burger but would you butcher a cow?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The problem is that we aren't just supposed to accept to fill in gaps. Him not being able to slightly harm an old lady and tie her up, in order to escape the law, was after all of the things in BB happened. So he flip flopped back and forth from not wanting to seriously harm people, to being fine with murder, even recommending it, to not wanting to harm people again, without anything that would really explain it shown on screen.

23 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I've never seen anybody flip-flop on their stance on murder and violence, to the point where they recommend murdering multiple people at one point and then won't even harm an old lady slightly. Let alone without seeing any inciting incident. You might know different people than me though.

There is a big leap from being "a disgusting guy" to being a murderer. Something we've never seen him be throughout BCS.

That is a good way of resolving the problem. I'm going to make that my head-canon.

18 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

To me, the key difference is that spitballing about murder about people he's never met and doesn't know -- or people who are, as in Jesse's case in S5, really dangerous to him -- is that there's no way he'd actually be pulling the trigger himself.  In 612, he was put in the position where he would have to do the deed himself.  It's like, you might buy a burger but would you butcher a cow?

Exactly. Suggesting that someone else get rid of a problem in a way that implies murder is completely different from murdering someone yourself. People approve of murders like that every day without it being a flip flop.

[millennium]

10 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I mean he could have prevented getting caught by manhandling and tying up an old lady but he couldn't even do that.

I never considered he might tie her up.   The impression I got was that he was one step away from murdering Carol Burnett.

[millennium]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Exactly. Suggesting that someone else get rid of a problem in a way that implies murder is completely different from murdering someone yourself.

Even when you're suggesting it to someone who has already committed murder?  Heisenberg would butcher the cow -- and explain the process to you in detail as he did it.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, millennium said:

Even when you're suggesting it to someone who has already committed murder?  Heisenberg would butcher the cow -- and explain the process to you in detail as he did it.

Yes,  think there is a big difference. Not in terms of how different they are morally speaking, but plenty of people do things that they know will kill people without ever doing it with their own hands (or maybe even being capable of that.) 

I keep thinking of that speech of Orson Welles' in the Third Man, looking down from the Ferris Wheel at all the dots moving on the ground below and not caring if one of the dots stopped moving, even if you might know the dot.

[millennium]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes,  think there is a big difference. Not in terms of how different they are morally speaking, but plenty of people do things that they know will kill people without ever doing it with their own hands

At the very least, Saul would be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.   Even if he didn't commit the murder himself, I have a hard time seeing that as a redemptive quality.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, millennium said:

At the very least, Saul would be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.   Even if he didn't commit the murder himself, I have a hard time seeing that as a redemptive quality.

Oh, I agree. I don't think it makes him better than, say, Walt that he'd be willing to suggest the murder but not commit it himself.

[ShadowFacts]

5 hours ago, jww said:

So I doubt they would allow a walk-in visitor without having been screened first and on an approved list.

I agree, that's not even allowed at the jail in the county where I live. I also posted earlier that I doubt the inmates would be running the kitchen freely, there is too much prospect for mayhem to break out. No smoking, either. Lots of dramatic license here.

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I never considered he might tie her up.   The impression I got was that he was one step away from murdering Carol Burnett.

Yes, the way he was wrapping the cord around his hands doesn't suggest tying up to me.  Further, he was very close to cracking the skull of his final drugged victim, if the guy hadn't fallen back asleep.

Edited August 21, 2022 by ShadowFacts
I don't live in the county jail

[PeterPirate]

For me the difference is that Carol Burnett wasn't in the game, whereas all the people Saul talked about sending to Belize were.  Jesse was able to shoot Gale in the face, but he freaked out over the murder of Drew Sharpe. 

Also, tying up Carol Burnett would have bought Gene maybe three hours.  If she doesn't show up at the police station, Jeff cracks and sends the cops to his house.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by PeterPirate

[tennisgurl]

My husband just started the first season this weekend, he wanted to wait until the show ended so he could binge the whole thing. He’s convinced that Jimmy will make his full transformation to Saul by the end of the first season. Bless his heart…

[gallimaufry]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

My husband just started the first season this weekend, he wanted to wait until the show ended so he could binge the whole thing. He’s convinced that Jimmy will make his full transformation to Saul by the end of the first season. Bless his heart…

To be fair, not only was that their trajectory as they were writing, I really think you can see where they detoured from the course and came back on.

Their original concept was that Chuck was a Mycroft character supporting Jimmy - you can see how this becomes Kim.  Moreover, if you think about it, Nacho doesn't encounter Jimmy between 104 and 502 and there's nothing particularly in their history (setting aside Lalo, Gus etc.) that prevents them encountering each other earlier.  You can see how Jimmy could become a cartel lawyer by the end of S1 which makes his name and mints him as Saul Goodman in S2 in the same way he ultimately makes it big as "Salamanca's Guy" in S6.

I'm not sure how much the specifics of this interaction with Jimmy and the cartel were in their mind given they work "brick by brick" but they said they wanted to do a "Laurence of Arabia" episode with Mike and Jimmy in S1 and so I rather suspect that good chunks of what ultimately got used in S5 were being discussed for S1.