S06.E12: Waterworks

[Starchild]

2 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

We also have to keep in mind that while the idea of Better Call Saul was discussed between Odenkirk and the producers as early as the production of "Full Measure" (the finale of season 3 of Breaking Bad), the show didn't formally go into development until 2013. 

It's apparent they went through the Saul scenes of Breaking Bad (including many written when Breaking Bad was a presumed standalone series) and determined that some things would be "canon" and were good starting points. The references to Ignacio and Lalo in his first appearance became very important; long-term story was retrofitted to that. But perhaps not every utterance from him was something they wanted to follow through on, and the glib, untrustworthy nature of the character (as he was in Breaking Bad) gave them some cover on continuity. 

Gilligan has (modestly?) admitted in a recent interview that he and Peter Gould tend to plan no more than a few feet in front of them. That isn't everyone's process, but it works for them. I don't think, for example, that when people five or six years ago were asking "Is Kim gonna die?" they had yet decided. They just knew they had to extricate her from Jimmy's life in some way in the final season, and as they mapped out the story, a path became clear. 

Exactly. 

The way I see it, in the BB/BCS universe, the showrunners and the audience have a strong respect and trust for each other. That has led to all of us cooperating in both the giving and receiving of the stories.

G&G are willing to give us snippets and hints of plot and character, trusting us to take those and form the bigger picture. And the elements can be formed in multiple ways for individual audience members to assemble that portait with different colours and positions, but still arrive at the same general place.

And on our side, we're willing to live with the blank spaces and occasional mild collisions, to make allowances, guesses, each of us filling in the blanks to suit our own tastes, because we recognize this as art.

[Cinnabon]

51 minutes ago, MamaBird said:

He was playing in a band called Spinal Tap, under the stage name David St. Hubbins.  (And before you ask, Saint Hubbins is the patron saint of quality footware.)

Best post ever! 😍

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It's apparent they went through the Saul scenes of Breaking Bad (including many written when Breaking Bad was a presumed standalone series) and determined that some things would be "canon" and were good starting points. The references to Ignacio and Lalo in his first appearance became very important; long-term story was retrofitted to that. But perhaps not every utterance from him was something they wanted to follow through on, and the glib, untrustworthy nature of the character (as he was in Breaking Bad) gave them some cover on continuity. 

I wonder if G&G have ever addressed the change in the reason for the use of "Saul Goodman".  My guess is they wanted to avoid any controversy regarding the use of an ethnic name.  It would make Saul's clients come across as Archie Bunker.  Maybe G&G got a note from the studio execs to knock it off with the Jewish thing.  Or maybe they got a fan letter from Mel Gibson.  

For that matter, I wonder if they ever explained why they created Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman as having an Irish background and a Jewish DBA in the first place. 

Irritating Inquiring minds want to know.   

Edited August 12, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Razzberry]

Speaking of quality footware...

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'd say that my tendency is to presume that a reference is meaningful as long as there's a coherent way to do so. If something is just a casual lie on the one hand, or just a retcon on the other, then it may as well not have been mentioned at all.

Yes--well put. That is more the way I fall as well. So far the things that I've seen that don't line up exactly all seem to illuminate the character. The stepfather story that you mention really does for me become *more* meaningful knowing the whole story. He didn't have to lie like that, but he chose to tell this lie.

Likewise, the line about "Did Lalo send you?" now becomes incredibly significant even if originally it was comical and I assume it was completely true.

The name change, too, seems like it says something about the character. We can't pin down exactly what he was thinking at the time, but it seems completely fitting that a name that chronologically was first a pun eventually became a bigoted declaration of cynicism with the person himself believing what he was saying both times. What would be more surprising, in fact, would be if he chose to tell the same story to Walt as he did to Marco.

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I wonder if G&G have ever addressed the change in the reason for the use of "Saul Goodman".  My guess is they wanted to avoid any controversy regarding the use of an ethnic name.  It would make Saul's clients come across as Archie Bunker.  Maybe G&G got a note from the studio execs to knock it off with the Jewish thing.  Or maybe they got a fan letter from Mel Gibson.  

Seems too late to avoid that controversy if they were trying to, since once Saul said it it's there. It's not like his clients' motivations change based on where the name came from. As far as they know, it's his real name.

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

For that matter, I wonder if they ever explained why they created Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman as having an Irish background and a Jewish DBA in the first place. 

Irritating Inquiring minds want to know.   

I wonder if the original line was more like a burst of inspiration that just fit with the themes of the show and the sleazy lawyer character they were putting across.

[Starchild]

I'm thinking that at the time the line was written, it was to underline Saul's sleaze, that he'd even compromise his own identity for personal gain.

[PeterPirate]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I wonder if the original line was more like a burst of inspiration that just fit with the themes of the show and the sleazy lawyer character they were putting across.

Yes, I think it was just a line Peter Gould threw in there.  I still would like to know what he was thinking at the time.  

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems too late to avoid that controversy if they were trying to, since once Saul said it it's there. It's not like his clients' motivations change based on where the name came from. As far as they know, it's his real name.

It's one thing to make the ethnic references once, especially since Saul had just been introduced as another supporting character in BB.  It's another thing to make the ethnic reference a recurring thing once the character became important.  

We never saw one of Saul's homeboy clients seek him out because he was Jewish.  This episode would have been the perfect opportunity to circle back to the reference.   Jesse could have said something like:  "Emilio sees  this dude's commercials on television.  Says a Jewish lawyer is the way to go.  I tell him, yo, why do you want to be like Archie Bunker?"  

[SimplexFish]

4 hours ago, MamaBird said:

He was playing in a band called Spinal Tap, under the stage name David St. Hubbins.  (And before you ask, Saint Hubbins is the patron saint of quality footware.)

But this amp goes to 11!

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

We never saw one of Saul's homeboy clients seek him out because he was Jewish.  

I thought they were seeking him out because of him defending Lalo...Saul was now the "Cartel Attorney" and thats who everyone wanted.. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by SimplexFish

[SimplexFish]

Incidentally my favorite Michael McKean acting roll was Stefan Vanderhoof in Best In Show playing opposite John Michael Higgins as Scott Donlan...GOLD!!!

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Incidentally my favorite Michael McKean acting roll was Stefan Vanderhoof in Best In Show playing opposite John Michael Higgins as Scott Donlan...GOLD!!!

So great. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

I thought they were seeking him out because of him defending Lalo...

Yes...The waiting room was packed after that...

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

I'm thinking that at the time the line was written, it was to underline Saul's sleaze, that he'd even compromise his own identity for personal gain.

At the same time, it indicates how fragile his sleazy persona is: he made up this whole alternate identity for himself, but then immediately cops to it and blabs his real name as soon as he meets someone who he thinks is "a fellow potato-eater."

That's why I'm especially resistant to retcons that depend on the idea that Saul is just a guy who likes to lie a lot for fun. One of the first things we learn about him is that he's actually eager to tell the truth at the flimsiest opportunity! Hence my assumption that something like the stepdad story is not just made up out of whole cloth but is as close to accurate as Saul is able to stand.

[PeterPirate]

Talking Saul for this episode is available at AMC+.

[scenario]

29 minutes ago, Dev F said:

At the same time, it indicates how fragile his sleazy persona is: he made up this whole alternate identity for himself, but then immediately cops to it and blabs his real name as soon as he meets someone who he thinks is "a fellow potato-eater."

That's why I'm especially resistant to retcons that depend on the idea that Saul is just a guy who likes to lie a lot for fun. One of the first things we learn about him is that he's actually eager to tell the truth at the flimsiest opportunity! Hence my assumption that something like the stepdad story is not just made up out of whole cloth but is as close to accurate as Saul is able to stand.

I think that with Kim, people were going to ask him what happened to her. Even criminals saw the two of them together at the courthouse and knew they were married. He wasn't going to say that she left because he was scum and turning her into a criminal.

He probably ended up trying out a bunch of different stories depending on who he was talking to. The story we first heard was his funny version never really intended to be believed. 

[Cinnabon]

17 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Talking Saul for this episode is available at AMC+.

Finally. Why do we pay for this and not get perks? They even limit available episodes to the last 3 or 4 only. 

[SoMuchTV]

26 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Talking Saul for this episode is available at AMC+.

8 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Finally. Why do we pay for this and not get perks? They even limit available episodes to the last 3 or 4 only. 

The regular AMC app (the one that’s free but you need to log in with your cable/provider credentials) has Talking now as well. I’m surprised plus sounds almost as limited as free. Glad I didn’t spring for it!

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

At the same time, it indicates how fragile his sleazy persona is: he made up this whole alternate identity for himself, but then immediately cops to it and blabs his real name as soon as he meets someone who he thinks is "a fellow potato-eater."

That's why I'm especially resistant to retcons that depend on the idea that Saul is just a guy who likes to lie a lot for fun. One of the first things we learn about him is that he's actually eager to tell the truth at the flimsiest opportunity! Hence my assumption that something like the stepdad story is not just made up out of whole cloth but is as close to accurate as Saul is able to stand.

He's not honest as a default. He has been lying for fun and profit for years. Now he's gotten caught in one by Marion which may end him. He was only doing business as Saul Goodman, was still known around the legal community as Jimmy, Chuck's brother. He schmoozes people, looks for commonalities, like ethnicity, when it might benefit him.

[Starchild]

54 minutes ago, scenario said:

I think that with Kim, people were going to ask him what happened to her. Even criminals saw the two of them together at the courthouse and knew they were married. He wasn't going to say that she left because he was scum and turning her into a criminal.

He probably ended up trying out a bunch of different stories depending on who he was talking to. The story we first heard was his funny version never really intended to be believed. 

And it doesn't hurt to pick one that would discourage most people from digging any deeper.

[Constantinople]

Jimmy gave different explanations for why he's practicing law under the name Saul Goodman. The first in April 2004 and the second in December 2008 (according to the Breaking Bad Wiki Timeline)

Quote

BCS S5E1: Kim asks Jimmy why he wants to practice law under the name Saul Goodman

Jimmy : The skells who've been buying my phones sure as shitting, sooner or later, every last one of them is gonna find themselves in the back of a squad car. How do I get them to call Jimmy McGill? I don't! I stay Saul Goodman. They call the guy they already know.

Quote

BB S2E8: Saul asks Mr. Mayhew (Walt) if the name Mayhew is English or Irish.

Walter: Irish. 

Saul: Faith and begorrah! A fellow potato-eater. My real name's McGill. The Jew thing I just do for the homeboys. They all want a pipe-hittin' member of the tribe, so to speak. I digress.

This is not a retcon or contradiction in my opinion.

People can have more than one reason for doing something; the relative importance people can give to those reasons can vary over time; and the stated reason or reasons may vary with the intended audience.

Jimmy told Kim that by selling burner phones under the name Saul Goodman, he had a built in criminal client base provided he practiced law under the name Saul Goodman. Kim wasn't nutty about this, but she may have been even less nutty with "the Jew thing" explanation.

In contrast Saul had never met Walt before and may have been cautious about discussing his background, just as Saul later said he didn't take bribes from strangers. So Saul tries to establish a connection that they're both Irish and makes his off color Jewish remark.

I also wonder if Saul or his clientele watched The Wire. It first aired in June 2002 and concluded in March 2008. Almost all of the major criminals in that show had the same "criminal lawyer". As it turns out that " criminal lawyer was "pipe-hittin' member of the tribe, so to speak". I wouldn't be surprised if Saul had a bunch of wannabe Avon Barksdales and Stringer Bells as clients.

Saul was also much more into his Saul persona when he met Walt, i.e much more crude. Here's what Saul said to Skyler when he met her in BB S3E11

Quote

I'm gonna call you Skyler, if that's okay. It's a lovely name. Reminds me of a big beautiful sky. 

Walt never told me how lucky he was prior to recent unfortunate events.

His taste in women is the same as his taste in lawyers.

Only the very best with just the right amount of dirty.

That's a joke. That's a joke.

It funny because you are so clearly very classy.

So I don't see any glaring contradiction. Just different stories told to different people at different stages in Jimmy's life, and Jimmy becomes more of a pig over time

Edited August 12, 2022 by Constantinople

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

At the same time, it indicates how fragile his sleazy persona is: he made up this whole alternate identity for himself, but then immediately cops to it and blabs his real name as soon as he meets someone who he thinks is "a fellow potato-eater."

That's why I'm especially resistant to retcons that depend on the idea that Saul is just a guy who likes to lie a lot for fun. One of the first things we learn about him is that he's actually eager to tell the truth at the flimsiest opportunity! Hence my assumption that something like the stepdad story is not just made up out of whole cloth but is as close to accurate as Saul is able to stand.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

He's not honest as a default. He has been lying for fun and profit for years. Now he's gotten caught in one by Marion which may end him. He was only doing business as Saul Goodman, was still known around the legal community as Jimmy, Chuck's brother. He schmoozes people, looks for commonalities, like ethnicity, when it might benefit him.

Yeah, I think it's complicated. I think he sometimes does lie for fun--he gets something like fun from some of his scamming and the name Saul Goodman did start out as a funny joke. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that his lies can't serve some purpose, either one that's practical for a scam or that protects him emotionally or hides something he doesn't want to think about. 

He's also very good at reading people and adjusting himself accordingly, and despite his later ugliness really wants to be liked, so that's going to factor in as well. 

Maybe the most basic point is that this is not a man that wants to face himself completely in a mirror, and that comes out in a lot of different ways and habits. In fact, sometimes the times he's most truthful is when it's part of protecting himself or some scam, which maybe makes it easier for him because he can tell himself it's a lie.

Edited August 12, 2022 by sistermagpie

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

The regular AMC app (the one that’s free but you need to log in with your cable/provider credentials) has Talking now as well. I’m surprised plus sounds almost as limited as free. Glad I didn’t spring for it!

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Finally. Why do we pay for this and not get perks? They even limit available episodes to the last 3 or 4 only. 

Being able to skip through commercials makes AMC+ worth the 9 dollars a month.  Especially if I want to watch the end of an episode to pick up some detail.  At the regular AMC site I would have to sit through 8, 10 ads.  

But yeah, I can't stand it that I can't watch the episodes from the first half of the season.  No way am I paying once this show disappears.  Those privileged elitists on the moon can starve for all I care.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

The regular AMC app (the one that’s free but you need to log in with your cable/provider credentials) has Talking now as well. I’m surprised plus sounds almost as limited as free. Glad I didn’t spring for it!

Before the second half of this season started, I signed up for AMC+ for a year. I don't remember if that was the only option, rather than just monthly, but I regret it now. I've been looking at Philo TV. With that I could DVR the eps and FF thru commercials, like I used to do when I had cable. 

[peeayebee]

I just watched Talking Saul. At one point they talk about Duke's mayo and Cinnabon and product placement (which they didn't do), and Rhea (appearing remotely) says, "Hey Vince, do you wish we got ____?" There was a lot of laughter after, but I couldn't understand her. Did anyone catch what she said?

They also mentioned a charity auction of props that you can register for. I think I remember this before, maybe for BB. I wouldn't be able to afford any of the items, I'm sure, but I don't need any more STUFF either. 

propstore.com/bettercallsaul

[scenario]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Being able to skip through commercials makes AMC+ worth the 9 dollars a month.  Especially if I want to watch the end of an episode to pick up some detail.  At the regular AMC site I would have to sit through 8, 10 ads.  

But yeah, I can't stand it that I can't watch the episodes from the first half of the season.  No way am I paying once this show disappears.  Those privileged elitists on the moon can starve for all I care.

I can't see the purpose of a site which only holds their show for a limited amount of time. I pay for a service so I can watch it whenever I want. That's what I am paying for. They're almost begging people to sign up and then cancel later. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I just watched Talking Saul. At one point they talk about Duke's mayo and Cinnabon and product placement (which they didn't do), and Rhea (appearing remotely) says, "Hey Vince, do you wish we got ____?" There was a lot of laughter after, but I couldn't understand her. Did anyone catch what she said?

I think she said, "Vince, you wish we got free mayonnaise?"  

[stewedsquash]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:32 PM, SimplexFish said:

Wow!!

Interrupting the forum: I won't be able to sleep until I know how you fixed the grammar on this post? (your edit says "fixed grammar". 

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I also wonder if Saul or his clientele watched The Wire. It first aired in June 2002 and concluded in March 2008. Almost all of the major criminals in that show had the same "criminal lawyer". As it turns out that " criminal lawyer was "pipe-hittin' member of the tribe, so to speak". I wouldn't be surprised if Saul had a bunch of wannabe Avon Barksdales and Stringer Bells as clients.

I think it was Peter Gould who watched The Wire and decided to include the pipe-hitting reference into the introduction of Saul into BB.  And he got a note from the studio to come up with something else after BCS got the green light.  

They took a lot of care to work in Saul's three wives, the woman who thought he was Kevin Costner, and the references to Lalo and Nacho.  But when it came to the origin of "Saul Goodman", we were shown in 104 and 306 that it was play on "S'all good, man".  I suppose I will have to buy the disc sets and listen to the commentary tracks to see if they talk about this change.  

6 hours ago, Dev F said:

At the same time, it indicates how fragile his sleazy persona is: he made up this whole alternate identity for himself, but then immediately cops to it and blabs his real name as soon as he meets someone who he thinks is "a fellow potato-eater."

That's why I'm especially resistant to retcons that depend on the idea that Saul is just a guy who likes to lie a lot for fun. One of the first things we learn about him is that he's actually eager to tell the truth at the flimsiest opportunity! Hence my assumption that something like the stepdad story is not just made up out of whole cloth but is as close to accurate as Saul is able to stand.

I agree with this.  It makes no sense to me that Saul--before BCS--would reveal his real name but then fabricate the reason for using the fake one.  Post-BCS my own, say, work-around is that he's avoiding having to remember Kim was with him when he filed his DBA.  

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

He's not honest as a default. He has been lying for fun and profit for years.

Sure, but that's sort of the central tension of the character: he's a shameless con man who is also desperate for people to see him and love him for who he really is.

Quote

Now he's gotten caught in one by Marion which may end him.

Yep, and the only reason he was caught is because that same tension was at work: to shut her up would've definitively confirmed that he's no longer Jimmy McGill, the lawyer old people can trust, and even at that moment, when he was at his lowest, that would have been more than he could bear.

Quote

He was only doing business as Saul Goodman, was still known around the legal community as Jimmy, Chuck's brother. He schmoozes people, looks for commonalities, like ethnicity, when it might benefit him.

Sometimes, but his grifter instincts tend more toward self-deprecation rather than ingratiation or insinuation. His go-to cons are the slip-and-fall and the pigeon drop, both of which entail making himself look pathetic and weak, setting himself apart from his marks, so they'll think that either they'll get in trouble for wounding him or they can take advantage of him. Even when he's just throwing out razzle-dazzle to keep people off balance, he'll generally claim to have an embarrassing medical condition or ad lib a story about how someone else impressive is associated with the thing he's messing around with—e.g., oh, did you know the guy who wrote "The Piña Colada Song" went to this school?

He can lay on the charm when he has to, like with Marion or Frank the security guard in "Nippy," but that's usually more of a hallmark of his non-grifter endeavors, like his elder law practice. And it's somewhat telling that two of the most prominent examples of him charming people to do a con are in the episode in which, it turns out in the end, he's actually trying to escape the grifter life. And when he falls into uglier cons in the next couple episodes, he becomes really careless about being sweet to Marion, thus rousing her suspicions.

So, again, I see his tendency to charm and search for common ground as something separate from his default con man instincts—indeed, as a counterbalancing urge to pull himself out of the humiliation and degradation of his typical cons. In other words, it's not that he's pulling one grift on the "homeboys" and an equally calculated grift on the supposed Mr. Mayhew; it's that he's genuinely grateful to meet a fellow Irishman, because it means that for one brief moment he doesn't have to grift quite as hard.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Dev F

[SimplexFish]

A lot of discussion on how the name Saul Goodman came to be...but does anyone know why at HHM they began calling him "Slipping" Jimmy?  To me that always sounded like a moniker that a ambulance chasing, slip & fall attorney would have...

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

A lot of discussion on how the name Saul Goodman came to be...but does anyone know why at HHM they began calling him "Slipping" Jimmy?  To me that always sounded like a moniker that a ambulance chasing, slip & fall attorney would have...

I'm pretty sure he got that nickname before he moved to ABQ. They probably picked it up from Chuck. 

[SimplexFish]

7 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

Interrupting the forum: I won't be able to sleep until I know how you fixed the grammar on this post? (your edit says "fixed grammar". 

Just to the right of the quote link below there is a lil pencil link, click that just like ya did for the copy quote and you can change your post. Once you change what you want scroll down and there is a box that says "reason"...you can chose to fill in the reason why you changed your post or just leave it blank and hit save.  

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

I'm pretty sure he got that nickname before he moved to ABQ. They probably picked it up from Chuck. 

I think that is correct...but why Slippin? 

[stewedsquash]

@SimplexFish Ha no I wanted to know how you messed up Wow!! grammar.  It just struck me as funny. 

These last few episodes are kind of wonky for me. Someone in previous threads mentioned that they seemed Fargo-ish which is another series I loved. I guess that might be why I am a bit meh on the last two or so episodes, it seems like I am watching a completely different show now than BCS. I think I just really miss the Alburquerque and Mexico settings. 

I also got thrown off when Carol Burnett showed up because someone mentioned that she was Kim's mom and then in the next episode they said they were wrong. I kept waiting for a Kim connection that never came. Carol Burnett is one of my favorite people and I hope she gets more acting jobs. She is fantastic here and has been a highlight of the ending of BCS. And another way this has become Fargo-ish since Jean Smart was fantastic in one season of that show also.

Edited August 13, 2022 by stewedsquash
additional thought

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Just to the right of the quote link below there is a lil pencil link, click that just like ya did for the copy quote and you can change your post. Once you change what you want scroll down and there is a box that says "reason"...you can chose to fill in the reason why you changed your post or just leave it blank and hit save.  

I think that is correct...but why Slippin? 

It's a reference to the slip and fall scam, like he once pulled on the brothers who owned a store that Jimmy/Saul was trying to sell t.v. commercials. It's one of the standard scams in a country with a lot of personal injury lawsuits.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I think it was Peter Gould who watched The Wire and decided to include the pipe-hitting reference into the introduction of Saul into BB.  And he got a note from the studio to come up with something else after BCS got the green light. 

That's the Doylist explanation for why Jimmy gave different reasons for practicing law under the name Saul Goodman. Mine was the Watsonian explanation.

Quote

They took a lot of care to work in Saul's three wives

I don't recall them taking much care with that. If I recall, Saul said in Breaking Bad that his second wife slept with his stepfather. In Better Call Saul he provides evidence of his two divorces before he and Kim marry.

There's a difference between keeping a fact consistent across BB and BCS -- two prior marriages -- and requiring a character to always give the same subjective motivation for his actions. Walt said he started making meth to leave his family money. By the show's end he told Skyler he did it because he enjoyed it. But he still arranged to leave Walt Jr money via Gretchen and Elliot.

Quote

But when it came to the origin of "Saul Goodman", we were shown in 104 and 306 that it was play on "S'all good, man"

The origin of the name Saul Goodman and Jimmy's motivation for practicing law under that name are two different things.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, stewedsquash said:

I also got thrown off when Carol Burnett showed up because someone mentioned that she was Kim's mom and then in the next episode they said they were wrong.

That can be a problem with speculation -- You might settle on it being a fact or just expect it to happen. I generally try to avoid speculation, though it's not really possible to even avoid participating in it to some extent. I prefer to enjoy the ride that the writers have devised, as long as they're good writers.

Quote

Carol Burnett is one of my favorite people and I hope she gets more acting jobs. She is fantastic here and has been a highlight of the ending of BCS. And another way this has become Fargo-ish since Jean Smart was fantastic in one season of that show also.

OMG. Jean Smart is fantastic in everything!

[PeterPirate]

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Quote

But when it came to the origin of "Saul Goodman", we were shown in 104 and 306 that it was play on "S'all good, man"

The origin of the name Saul Goodman and Jimmy's motivation for practicing law under that name are two different things.

Then tack on 410.  Another "S'all good, man" reference, and one related directly to his practice of law.  There is no reference to Judaism by Saul or his clients when he is practicing law.  Only the non-legal usage in 601.  

15 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

That's the Doylist explanation for why Jimmy gave different reasons for practicing law under the name Saul Goodman. Mine was the Watsonian explanation.

True.  I just can't come up with a Watsonian explanation that I can sit with.  I abhor the conspiracy theory mindset and will resort to the Doylist approach when there is no other reasonable alternative.  

[stewedsquash]

@peeayebee Oh yeah for sure. I skim over speculation. The Kim's mom thing was not stated in a speculative manner but was an error and that's what kept throwing me off until the error was corrected. 

[jww]

Slipping Jimmy is from his scamming days in Chicago.

Someone who is slippery cannot be trusted:

He's as slippery as an eel - you can never get a straight answer out of him.

He's a slippery customer (= person), and I've never felt comfortable with him.

(of a person) evasive and unpredictable; not to be relied on.

‘Martin's a slippery customer’

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yep, and the only reason he was caught is because that same tension was at work: to shut her up would've definitively confirmed that he's no longer Jimmy McGill, the lawyer old people can trust, and even at that moment, when he was at his lowest, that would have been more than he could bear.

I think he was caught in this particular lie about bail differences because he was careless and overconfident. Forgot a lie he told. I think he couldn't go through with strangling Marion for possibly multiple reasons. He may have been reminded of his own mother, who he fleeced and she still loved him. That may have been more powerfully in his subconscious than the Sandpiper elders. And there was no point, the jig was up, her computer history was there, Jeffy and Buddy knew who he was.  He was ready just a short time before to crack open the head of his drugging victim if he hadn't passed back out, so I'm not ready to give him a passing grade on figuring out his identity/basic humanity. Not just yet, that still may happen.  I think he is more a cornered animal than anything else, with a strong undercurrent of self-loathing and self-destruction.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I think it was Peter Gould who watched The Wire and decided to include the pipe-hitting reference into the introduction of Saul into BB.  And he got a note from the studio to come up with something else after BCS got the green light.  

I can't tell if you're being serious here. You honestly think a studio remembered a single throwaway line from the hit show they're spinning off and demanded they write a story to change it in the spin-off? That absolutely did not happen.

If you need a Doylist reason, why not just go with assuming that once the writers started writing the story they came up with something more interesting that suggested Jimmy wasn't being entirely truthful with Walt?

10 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I agree with this.  It makes no sense to me that Saul--before BCS--would reveal his real name but then fabricate the reason for using the fake one.  Post-BCS my own, say, work-around is that he's avoiding having to remember Kim was with him when he filed his DBA.  

But it does make sense. He's not in hiding in BB. It doesn't hurt him if somebody knows his real name, especially some middle aged white teacher. If he's trying to bond with the guy on their shared heritage it makes perfect sense he'd lean something that draws them together against other people. He can still be benefiting from the alleged associations with Jewish lawyers.

Edited August 13, 2022 by sistermagpie

[peeayebee]

Another history for 'Saul Goodman' could be that when Jimmy first came up with it, he thought it was clever wordplay, fun, and memorable for the type of lawyer he wanted to be. Then as he REALLY became Saul Goodman, criminal lawyer, in his mind he dropped the fun, punny name, and took on the uglier, racist origin.

[Lalo Lives]

16 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jimmy gave different explanations for why he's practicing law under the name Saul Goodman. The first in April 2004 and the second in December 2008 (according to the Breaking Bad Wiki Timeline)

This is not a retcon or contradiction in my opinion.

People can have more than one reason for doing something; the relative importance people can give to those reasons can vary over time; and the stated reason or reasons may vary with the intended audience.

Jimmy told Kim that by selling burner phones under the name Saul Goodman, he had a built in criminal client base provided he practiced law under the name Saul Goodman. Kim wasn't nutty about this, but she may have been even less nutty with "the Jew thing" explanation.

In contrast Saul had never met Walt before and may have been cautious about discussing his background, just as Saul later said he didn't take bribes from strangers. So Saul tries to establish a connection that they're both Irish and makes his off color Jewish remark.

I also wonder if Saul or his clientele watched The Wire. It first aired in June 2002 and concluded in March 2008. Almost all of the major criminals in that show had the same "criminal lawyer". As it turns out that " criminal lawyer was "pipe-hittin' member of the tribe, so to speak". I wouldn't be surprised if Saul had a bunch of wannabe Avon Barksdales and Stringer Bells as clients.

Saul was also much more into his Saul persona when he met Walt, i.e much more crude. Here's what Saul said to Skyler when he met her in BB S3E11

So I don't see any glaring contradiction. Just different stories told to different people at different stages in Jimmy's life, and Jimmy becomes more of a pig over time

Amen!

If one is speaking with:

an old lady

a worker at Walmart

a locker room full of linebackers

a group of CRIPS

a priest

a man with a Rebel flag patch in his chest

a smelly nasty scabby tweaker

a “Karen”

a 7th Day Adventist at the door 

a Girl Scout selling cookies

a squad of Navy SEALs

……he or she will speak differently, more or less deferentially, more or less kindly, more or less honestly, for differing reasons. And will do so, in some instances, subconsciously.

A person who has lived in Georgia for 20 years moves to Boston. Inside a year he’ll be saying “Dez ah ship in da hobba.”

And, conversely, if a lifetime New Yorker moves to Birmingham, Alabama, inside of a year, he’ll be saying: “Darlin’, yor da mos’ specialist sister ah got, let’s grab us a ska pilot n get hitched.”

People wittingly, or unwittingly, change to suit the audience.

Plus Jimmy is a READY, FIRE, AIM kind of guy. Sometimes he will have 3 words out of his mouth before he knows what he’s going to say.

I think that LALO slip to the cops a few episodes (seasons?) ago was intentional on the writers’ parts. It was a crumb of this tendency of Jimmy’s to go off half cocked (not “FULL COCK”) that we saw come to negative fruition when talking about Albuquerque bail procedures with Marion.

[peeayebee]

4 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

A person who has lived in Georgia for 20 years moves to Boston. Inside a year he’ll be saying “Dez ah ship in da hobba.”

Pahk ya cah in the Hahvahd yahd.

[PeterPirate]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't tell if you're being serious here. You honestly think a studio remembered a single throwaway line from the hit show they're spinning off and demanded they write a story to change it in the spin-off? That absolutely did not happen. 

Anything is possible.  I'm just surmising that because of the Mel Gibsons and Marlon Brandos of the world, the studio might have been sensitive about referring to a stereotype over and over again. 

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If you need a Doylist reason, why not just go with assuming that once the writers started writing the story they came up with something more interesting that suggested Jimmy wasn't being entirely truthful with Walt?

Well, I don't accept the premise that "S'all good, man" is more interesting than "Pipe-hitting member of the tribe".  In fact I think the opposite is true.  I would have found it very interesting to see Spooge or Emilio Koyama ask Saul, "You're Jewish, right?  I hear you people make the best lawyers".  And I will add that I would have had no problem with Spooge or Emilio making a similar crack about people of my own ethnicity.  Genuine art is edgy. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Another history for 'Saul Goodman' could be that when Jimmy first came up with it, he thought it was clever wordplay, fun, and memorable for the type of lawyer he wanted to be. Then as he REALLY became Saul Goodman, criminal lawyer, in his mind he dropped the fun, punny name, and took on the uglier, racist origin.

I guess I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. It was obvious to me all along that "Saul Goodman" was a riff on "s'all good, man." My friends and I used to do almost the same riff in college: instead of saying "No problem" we'd say "S. Saul Goode." But that's just an explanation for how Saul came up with that particular Jewish name; it doesn't preclude him from having chosen a Jewish identity in general because he thought it'd confer certain advantages.

Even its origin as a name Jimmy used to sell his unusable commercial time doesn't conflict with the original explanation, because he could just as easily have thought that a Jewish name would lend authority to a television production company, given the prevalence of Jewish TV moguls. Indeed, "Saul Goodman" sounds pretty similar to "Mark Goodson," whose name would've been announced loudly at the end of half the game shows his clients would be watching in their retirement communities.

Edited to add: It may also be worth noting that Jimmy comes up with the "S'all good, man" joke in the S1 flashback after he tells his and Marco's mark his fake name and the mark replies uncomprehendingly, "Saul?" The subtext seems to be that the mark was like, What kind of name is Saul? so Jimmy turned it into a joke to keep him from thinking too hard about it. There could very well be an ethnic angle to that as well: the Irish Catholic Jimmy realizing he'd come up with an alias that's suspiciously Jewish and then vamping to cover for it.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Anything is possible.  I'm just surmising that because of the Mel Gibsons and Marlon Brandos of the world, the studio might have been sensitive about referring to a stereotype over and over again. 

Anything's possible, but that's a pretty big stretch that network executives--whose backing off successful showrunners is one of the reasons we got the so-called Golden Age of TV--were so worried about one line in a huge hit show that they demanded Gilligan & Co. write a whole story they didn't want to write. Those same network execs didn't have a problem with anti-Semitism on Mad Men. Why would they even think Gilligan was planning to make the whole show about how junkies are antisemitic based on that one line since they weren't very interested in it in BB to start with? Why not just go with the more sensical version that when it came time to write the guy's actual backstory the writers didn't wind up basing his entire alternate persona on the hope it might bring in a few more clients based on the stereotype? 

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, I don't accept the premise that "S'all good, man" is more interesting than "Pipe-hitting member of the tribe".  In fact I think the opposite is true.  I would have found it very interesting to see Spooge or Emilio Koyama ask Saul, "You're Jewish, right?  I hear you people make the best lawyers".  And I will add that I would have had no problem with Spooge or Emilio making a similar crack about people of my own ethnicity.  Genuine art is edgy. 

The "S'all good, man" joke isn't the part that's more interesting. The name, after both shows, touches on multiple things *including* the first thing he said. Why would we need a second scene of Spooge or Emilio giving us the same information we already got from Saul himself? Accepting what we see on BCS doesn't require that Saul be lying about his clients' biases. We don't see enough of the clients to hear about them from them.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I guess I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. It was obvious to me all along that "Saul Goodman" was a riff on "s'all good, man." My friends and I used to do almost the same riff in college: instead of saying "No problem" we'd say "S. Saul Goode." But that's just an explanation for how Saul came up with that particular Jewish name; it doesn't preclude him from having chosen a Jewish identity in general because he thought it'd confer certain advantages.

Even its origin as a name Jimmy used to sell his unusable commercial time doesn't conflict with the original explanation, because he could just as easily have thought that a Jewish name would lend authority to a television production company, given the prevalence of Jewish TV moguls. Indeed, "Saul Goodman" sounds pretty similar to "Mark Goodson," whose name would've been announced loudly at the end of half the game shows his clients would be watching in their retirement communities.

Edited to add: It may also be worth noting that Jimmy comes up with the "S'all good, man" joke in the S1 flashback after he tells his and Marco's mark his fake name and the mark replies uncomprehendingly, "Saul?" The subtext seems to be that the mark was like, What kind of name is Saul? so Jimmy turned it into a joke to keep him from thinking too hard about it. There could very well be an ethnic angle to that as well: the Irish Catholic Jimmy realizing he'd come up with an alias that's suspiciously Jewish and then vamping to cover for it.

Exactly. I would say the same thing is true for Walter White's nickname of Heisenberg. I'm sure he, too, might explain the name to someone else in a way that didn't line up with the first time he used it. Wouldn't make it a retcon. It would say something about Walt and his evolving, multi-faceted relationship to the name.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Anything is possible.  I'm just surmising that because of the Mel Gibsons and Marlon Brandos of the world, the studio might have been sensitive about referring to a stereotype over and over again. 

Well, I don't accept the premise that "S'all good, man" is more interesting than "Pipe-hitting member of the tribe".  In fact I think the opposite is true.  I would have found it very interesting to see Spooge or Emilio Koyama ask Saul, "You're Jewish, right?  I hear you people make the best lawyers".  And I will add that I would have had no problem with Spooge or Emilio making a similar crack about people of my own ethnicity.  Genuine art is edgy. 

lol Peter, buddy, let us help you. You're gonna have to find a way to live with this :)

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Exactly. I would say the same thing is true for Walter White's nickname of Heisenberg. I'm sure he, too, might explain the name to someone else in a way that didn't line up with the first time he used it. 

If Sheldon Cooper was a customer, no explanation needed... Penny would be the opposite...

[EtheltoTillie]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:09 PM, peeayebee said:

I like Hellman's, too. Making lunch today, I used the last of the mayo, so I'm going to get my regular Hellman's and as small a bottle of Duke's as I can find.Nopeworld. 

My Duke’s mayonnaise arrived today. I like it. We like it better than our usual Hellman’s.