S01.E08: To Death We Must Stoop

[PinkRibbons]

Quote

With the king sick, the court fears he will be succeeded by one of his sisters, but which sister? Watch the season finally of Becoming Elizabeth this Sunday on STARZ.

Airdate: August 7, 2022

Y'all I literally yelped in horror at the fact that this is the season finale. NOT YET!

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Y'all I literally yelped in horror at the fact that this is the season finale. NOT YET!

I know 😔

I was hoping for a 10 episode season. I feel like there's so much to cover in one season finale.

[PinkRibbons]

Sneak Peek:

[AntFTW]

This episode wasn't long enough!

I. NEED. MORE. EPISODES!

[Glade]

The opening scenes with the siblings were so powerful; Mary's strong maternal warmth towards Edward was touching.  I wish we got more of them together, and less contrived monologues delivered by the other characters. Edward's final outfit was really stunning.  And though I feel the final conversation between Elizabeth and Mary could have been edited down a bit, it is true, that Mary didn't favor or want to leave her crown to Elizabeth either; she preferred her cousin/best friend Margaret Douglas (daughter of Margaret Tudor) who she grew up with and who I hope will be cast in season 2 along with Anne of Cleves.

I guess I spent most of the episode expecting Edward to die by the end and impatient for the actual historical events to unfold. I was taken aback when Somerset died a beloved hero, after championing Mary's claim...which is interesting.  Meanwhile Robert married Amy 3 years before the events of this episode; Elizabeth, Edward, and his father were all present at the wedding.  Cate Blanchette's Elizabeth film also insisted that Robert's first marriage was done in secret at a much later date for the drama.  And I strongly doubt that Robert proposed to Elizabeth before his first marriage.

Regardless this was a good season and I hope for more. 

[ferjy]

And it starts all over again. With Jane in the mix now. It was a good season finale. Already looking forward to the next season. 

On 8/1/2022 at 12:25 PM, PinkRibbons said:

Y'all I literally yelped in horror at the fact that this is the season finale. NOT YET!

What am I going to do with myself at midnight next Sunday/Saturday! I’m also going to miss your helpful posts, really enjoyed them. They had so much interesting information. Wikipedia has nothing on you! 😁

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, Glade said:

I guess I spent most of the episode expecting Edward to die by the end and impatient for the actual historical events to unfold.

Me too. They got me there too. I was very confident that he would be dead in this episode.

Also, the time jumps are so smooth. The whole season takes over a few years and the show makes it easy to forget that.

Edited August 7, 2022 by AntFTW

[Norma Desmond]

Amazing finale that left me wanting for more. Romola shone in every scene. So many moving moments: Somerset's death, Sir Pedro's realization that Somerset truly considered him a friend, the powerful dialogue between the sisters - You make it hard (to love you) and Mary's reply: And you make it easy (to not love you) - WOW.

Season 2 can't some soon enough. Here's to hoping for a longer season. Or 2 more seasons.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Norma Desmond

[PinkRibbons]

10 hours ago, ferjy said:

 I’m also going to miss your helpful posts, really enjoyed them. They had so much interesting information. Wikipedia has nothing on you! 😁

😅 I'm finishing up my BA in History, so this show (even if only this season is good) will hold a special place in my heart for reminding me that I actually love history. I've spent several years now dragging long awful papers out of my soul and it's been brutal. But show me an actually good Tudor drama (they had Mary's overtly Catholic procession into the capital!!! They did not have to do that, it didn't match the timeline, but they did because they could!!!) and I'm here writing essays about it and staying up at night thinking about the Tudor succession.

So this whole episode was I guess their attempt at solving a historical mystery that honestly...isn't that mysterious. The mystery being why Edward didn't try to bypass Mary to put Elizabeth (who by this point was super playing up her protestant-ism to make herself a contrast to Mary, wearing black and acting very sober - literally puritanical), his "Sweet Sister Temperance" (and actual nickname for her that he had) on the throne. The show has decided that he saw her agreeing with Mary and counting that as her betraying him. I think that is a bit unfair to Edward. He was a very, VERY smart kid, and he would have known that Elizabeth would have to support the Act of Succession their father had passed as it was written, with Mary as a legitimate claimant. The fact that Elizabeth was even put into that Act was king of a miracle. Edward was unquestionably the rightful heir and even after her loss of legal legitimacy Mary had political clout on the world stage (much of which considered her legitimate). Elizabeth and Anne Boleyn in contrast could have been seen as that time Henry had a mid-life crisis and maybe everyone should all forget about that period. Thing is, Henry just couldn't let go of being head of the church in England, and so Mary was never officially re-legitimized because she fought so hard against losing the pope + took her mother's side and Henry was a vindictive bitch. And then when Henry decided to put Mary back into the succession, well, he couldn't say one child of a divorce he declared had rights and not the other. (Henry divorced Anne before executing her, possibly because he suspected Elizabeth wasn't his, but honestly again I think he was just being a vindictive bitch to Anne.) So in restoring Mary to the line of succession, there wasn't a good reason not to put Elizabeth in. And no one thought she would inherit, so maybe this was Henry extending a weird brand of love to his middle child; she wouldn't rule but she would have the status of a princess even if she wasn't legally so, and he left her a huge amount of wealth. 

(It's hard to judge Henry as a father. Well...sort of. He was terrible to Mary when she fought against him, and he was neglectful to both his daughters. Then again no one ever doubted that he loved Mary even when they fought, and he was known to speak very well of how smart Elizabeth was. Henry loved children in kind of the same way Mary did, so like her, I don't think he held Elizabeth's mother's actions against her for the most part. Her being a girl probably contributed to him not thinking much about her. But it does say something for him that his will left Elizabeth so comfortable, and that he let her into the succession.)

Okay, sorry, very long tangent (and probably more to come), but the mystery of why Edward didn't try to name Elizabeth as his successor? I don't think it was dramatic at all. He tried to overrule his father's Act of Succession by referencing Mary's status as a bastard. By doing that, he acknowledged Henry's divorce from Katherine of Aragon as legal. Since Henry divorced Anne Boleyn in exactly the same way, Edward's hands were tied. He didn't want Mary taking over, but there was no legal ground to stand on to preserve Elizabeth in her position if the act was dismantled, and he made that sacrifice. It's why the scene where Elizabeth "betrays" Dudley came off wrong to me. Like, what was she supposed to do? Say, "Oh hey, so I think I should be the next ruler because Edward likes me more"? No! She had to hold up the Act of Succession because even if it put Mary ahead of her, it kept her in her position as an heir. She had nowhere to go but down by saying otherwise.

The argument on the stairs also felt a little off to me. Great acting and writing, but I don't believe Mary's profession of hatred. Mostly because I don't quite see how Elizabeth wronged her in this episode? I guess she was lashing out. I don't believe Mary ever truly hated Elizabeth, or at least not until she was well into Queenhood and seriously scared of the pretty real threat Elizabeth posed.

God, the scene with Somerset and Elizabeth was great. Just the little touch of him saying that Elizabeth was his daughter's age. That was perfect. I'm reading (well, listening to) Gareth Russell's really excellent biography of Katherine Howard, Young and Damned and Fair. He doesn't really believe K. Howard was groomed or necessarily coerced by her lovers, and he mentions the later Thomas Seymour affair, pointing out that in contrast to how K. Howard's love life was handled, documentation from the time of the Seymour affair actually seems to show that Thomas's behavior towards a young Elizabeth was seen as predatory and wrong. It was a different time, but I guess not as different as we think.

(And now that I think about it, it's interesting that all the whore comments and nasty remarks about the scandal to Elizabeth seem to come from women in-show. The men just seem pissed that they couldn't get her to admit it.)

This show has been great and I desperately want it to come back (obviously Romola Garai alone is worth the price of admission). It does need a change though: Elizabeth. I don't want her recast, but both Alicia and the directing/writing have to step up. I'm not seeing much of a "Becoming" of her as a later larger-than-life figurehead. This season felt more like her being an observer and reacting to other people, not acting for herself. Showing her observation of other strong women is good (Catherine, Mary), but I need to see her making some proactive moves and start being as sly as advertised. If this was the season of her as a girl, she really needs to start stepping into her role as a woman. I think we were supposed to see that change happen after Thomas's execution, but it didn't really land for me that she had grown up all that much. Still, things only get wilder for her from here!

[susannot]

Excellent post PinkRibbons.  Agree with poster above that I have enjoyed your posts all season and we are all fortunate that you are a student of history.  I was wondering when we would get to Jane Grey.  Interesting that it was Dudley's idea.  Not sure if that is historically accurate but there is no doubt that the poor little girl was the pawn of her father and other powerful men who wanted a figurehead to keep Mary off the throne.

Edited August 8, 2022 by susannot

[Scarlett45]

35 minutes ago, susannot said:

Excellent post PinkRibbons.  Agree with poster above that I have enjoyed your posts all season and we are all fortunate that you are a student of history.  I was wondering when we would get to Jane Grey.  Interesting that it was Dudley's idea.  Not sure if that is historically accurate but there is no doubt that the poor little girl was the pawn of her father and other powerful men who wanted a figurehead to keep Mary off the throne.

Yes it was. 

Spoiler

Dudley marries her to his son Guildford. It was very much his idea.

[susannot]

I know.  And poor young Guilford shares her fate.

[Scarlett45]

I cannot believe it’s over. I loved it! Not quite as much as The White Queen but the the acting was superb. I loved the costumes. 
 

I also have to give a special shout out to Oliver Zetterström (Edward VI), he was only 14 when they filmed this and he very much held his own among the adults. I noticed him getting taller throughout the episodes! Lol. I want to see him in more things, his talent will only grow as he gets older.

[AntFTW]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also have to give a special shout out to Oliver Zetterström (Edward VI), he was only 14 when they filmed this and he very much held his own among the adults. I noticed him getting taller throughout the episodes! Lol. I want to see him in more things, his talent will only grow as he gets older.

I noticed that as well. For me, that's what helped make the transitions of the timeline so smooth.

They may been have some TV magic, but they did a really job aging him from the 9? 10? year old that he was at the start of the season to the teenager he has at the end of the season.

Edited August 8, 2022 by AntFTW

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I noticed that as well. For me, that's what helped make the transitions of the timeline so smooth.

They may have some TV magic, but they did a really job aging him from the 9? 10? year old that he was at the start of the season to the teenager he has at the end of the season.

The actor hadn’t  had his growth spurt yet, so a lot of that was angles (so he would appear shorter and smaller than he was) and probably filming the early episodes first so he would look as young as possible. 
 

Often with child actors they prefer kids that are small for their age, so they can portray younger ages but have the emotional maturity for the performance. 

[AntFTW]

Starz likes playing with my emotions. This show came as I was about to cancel my Starz subscription.

[Scarlett45]

20 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Starz likes playing with my emotions. This show came as I was about to cancel my Starz subscription.

You’re leaving me for Power Book 3?? Don’t cancel! We are supposed to be getting more historical dramas. 

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

You’re leaving me for Power Book 3?? Don’t cancel! We are supposed to be getting more historical dramas. 

Nope. They hooked me in LOL

Had this show not premiered when it did, I would have canceled and picked it back up for Book 3 😂

[Haleth]

I was planning on cancelling Starz after this but they are drawing me back in with The Serpent Queen.  

The cast of Becoming Elizabeth was outstanding; Romola Garai, Jamie Parker, and John Heffernan especially.  And yes, even though children are usually the weakest link, Oliver Zetterstrom was superb.  It's too bad Elizabeth was the least interesting character in the series.  Hopefully in season 2 she will begin to come into her own and stop being so weak and used by the men around her.

Run, Jane!  Run!

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was planning on cancelling Starz after this but they are drawing me back in with The Serpent Queen.  

The cast of Becoming Elizabeth was outstanding; Romola Garai, Jamie Parker, and John Heffernan especially.  And yes, even though children are usually the weakest link, Oliver Zetterstrom was superb.  It's too bad Elizabeth was the least interesting character in the series.  Hopefully in season 2 she will begin to come into her own and stop being so weak and used by the men around her.

Run, Jane!  Run!

What is this Serpent Queen of which you speak??

Where have I BEEN??

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was planning on cancelling Starz after this but they are drawing me back in with The Serpent Queen.  

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

What is this Serpent Queen of which you speak??

Where have I BEEN??

I think it's pretty new. I just saw it on the Starz app yesterday. I didn't click for a trailer but it was there. There is a trailer on Youtube.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

What is this Serpent Queen of which you speak??

Where have I BEEN??

Catherine deMedici. Starts 9/11. 

[CountryGirl]

This was such a wonderful show, far superior to The White Queen, The White Princess, and The Spanish Princess, although I thoroughly enjoyed all of those for the loosely-based-on-history romps they were.

There must be a S2 and considering, they left the succession up in the air, I'm convinced TPTB will, indeed, renew the show. 

It matters not that we all know how it ends up. I want to see it on my screen.

The season finale (and yes, I'm calling it that as my hopes for a S2 are obviously very much alive) was just thrilling to watch.

Edward VI on his apparent deathbed has sent everyone into a tizzy, including Lord Dudley, who summons Mary to Whitehall Palace, hoping to make amends. Um, I think it's a bit late for that now. 

Mary, arriving in all her Catholic splendor, with her fur-trimmed gown and giant entourage, was the standout moment, even though, to my knowledge, RL Mary did not visit Edward while he was dying. It's so much better this way that they chose to go for drama rather than historical accuracy.

Her list to Lord Dudley was made of awesome: (1) Releasing Bishop Gardiner, (2) Allowing her to have a Catholic mass with her priest to pray for Edward VI and (3) to get out of her fucking way. Romola had to have had an absolute blast filming those scenes. Considering she has literally elevated this series and this said with the view that much of the cast is strong already, she was owed this kind of splashy scene. As an aside, I've been more than fine with Alicia's portrayal. She's playing Elizabeth at 14-15 and raised in the Tudor court or not, she's still a kid. I think the lowered voice and timid demeanor at times were conscious choices by Alicia to show Elizabeth's youth and inexperience. If they had shown her wise to Thomas from the beginning and playing the Elizabeth we come to know as queen, it would have rung contrived and false to me. 

King or not, Edward is reduced to tears, seeing Mary, who uncharacteristically bursts into tears at the sight of her little brother in tears. He wants her to convert, she's not going to, he knows she's not going to and they cry some more. I've said it before, but the best scenes in the series are those with these children of Katherine, Anne, and Jane.

Elizabeth can't take all the crying and flees the room with Mary soon following with Mary apologizing for her letter that foiled Edward's plans to marry Elizabeth to the Danish prince. Wrong is still wrong even if Elizabeth isn't sad about that plan crumbling. 

The invisible chess board is out and the Tudor sisters are playing. Elizabeth, feeling out Dudley about becoming queen. Mary visiting Edward Seymour, extending a bit of an olive branch and lifeline. Which he clings to because right now, he's all out of options.

Robin is married to Amy and Elizabeth is shocked. She's not the only one as I would have thought they wouldn't have chucked the chance for a nice, slow burn out the window so quickly.

Also, RL Elizabeth was at their wedding and that was dramatic gold just asking to be mined or at least panhandled. His whole "I thought I loved you but I love my wife" and I'm just bored and can we go back to Mary already?

Thankfully, we do and the Tudor sisters does what everyone does on a death vigil - go hunting. There is a moment where I'm convinced Mary invited Elizabeth on the hunt to off her, even though, of course, nothing of that sort happens. Not at that point in history anyway. But good on show for raising the stakes and the suspense and Elizabeth's fear, especially when Mary leads her away from the rest of the group, resonates. through the screen. The drawing away was all pretext for Mary to warn Elizabeth that men will try to use Elizabeth for her power just as they are trying to do the same with Mary.

We also have this exchange, from Mary, to Elizabeth: "One of us a virgin and the other a whore." Damn.

It's also a thinly-veiled threat to Elizabeth not to try to take the throne when she says, the two sharing Mary's horse, "As long as you remember your place, sister, all will be well. I swear it."

Elizabeth meets with Lord Dudley again and she seems its to thumb her nose at Mary's advice, even trying on Edward's chair in the council room for size, but then reveals, to the rage of Lord Dudley, that she would love to be queen but isn't going to pursue it.

We then get one of the best exchanges in the series and the one that cements, at long last, a show willing and wanting to give a full picture of Mary and not just the typical retread approach of skipping ahead to the end "Bloody Mary" depiction. 

Lord Dudley: "She's a fanatic, vindictive, and paranoid!"

Elizabeth: "She is many things, but she is not paranoid, for the world does plot and scheme against her." Let that sink in, Lord Dudley, and the rest of the world. SHE. IS. NOT. PARANOID.

Lord Dudley is about to be thrown into the Tower but Edward VI recovers just in the nick of time and in a reversal of fortunes, it's Uncle Edward who is sent to the Tower and executed the next day.

Lord Dudley also arranges for a play to amuse the court whilst the execution is going down, which, of course, has a main plot that ends with Edward Seymour's execution. That's not in poor taste at all.

Pedro coming to the execution, reminding us that he and Edward Seymour were friends, and his covering Edward's son eyes at the moment of the beheading, showing they still are, was nicely played. As were his final words to Edward: "You have no enemies in this crowd today, sir."

Back to his old tyrant self, Edward kicks both of his sisters out, having learned that both had plenty of plans for after his demise, Mary especially, and they head down the stairs with just this little moment of Lady Jane Grey passing them, heading for the king's rooms. Jane only has time to give them a passing glance as she's headed for the king's ear and his crown and it ups the drama immensely even as I'm already sobered, knowing how it will all end for her and Guilford.

The final lengthy scene is on the Tudor sisters and rightfully so as they throw off decorum to really have a go at one another. The turns their relationship takes in that one scene of them on the steps alone is worth the price of admission.

And subtle nod to the way history will turn out in the end, perhaps, with Elizabeth being on a higher step.

Mary: "Do you really love me? Because I keep realizing I have no love for you." And I don't think either of them believe that.

Elizabeth: "You make it so hard."

Mary: "Well, you make it easy." Damn, Mary. But the fact that they do take such vicious swipes at each other proves how much they really care or why else would they bother? You only hurt the ones you love or so the saying goes.

Elizabeth: "I know you like to think of yourself as a victim, but you could choose a quiet life and does not. You are no victim" She's not wrong here.

Mary: "No, I am a Tudor." And on anyone else, that line could have come off as cheesy, but Romola sells it.

But both seem to come to an understanding about how hard it is to be a woman at this time and are actually a bit relieved, even laughing, that "while he rules, we do not matter." 

About that...

Well, Edward is coughing up blood and a crap ton of it, so we know how this is going to go but I want to watch the hell out of it so again, please, a second season had best be in the works!

[Razzberry]

When Mary starts with the f-bombs, you know she's pissed and you'd best watch your back!    I love historical dramas and this series was a step up from their usual heavily fictionalized fare.   

I half expected to see the entire Jane Grey debacle, Mary's reign, and Elizabeth's coronation compressed into this episode.  Hopefully they are saving it for season 2!

Lots of drama on the stairs...nice try at slut-shaming, but Elizabeth became the virgin.

[tennisgurl]

Imagine my disappointment when I realized that this was the season finale, I don't want it to be over yet! That was such a great season, I love some loosely based on history fun, and this gave me that costume drama fix while also being surprisingly accurate, at least by the standards of Starz historical shows. There are obviously some broad strokes, like Robert getting married without telling Elizabeth, but they also get a lot of interesting moments that other shows would have skipped over right, like Mary's huge Catholic procession when coming back to town, which was such a flex. The acting was excellent all around, the costumes were lovely, and I really enjoy exploring this period in Tudor history which usually gets skipped over. I was sure that Edward was going to die, but it looks like we have a bit more time left with him, which I am fine with because Oliver Zetterström is just killing it. I would say that he and Romala Garai are the stand outs of the season, but everyone has been great. We better get a season two, there is so much juicy stuff coming up with the Grey's and the start of Mary's reign, which could be a whole show in its own right. 

I am glad that we ended this season with the focus on the siblings, which is where the show shines the most. It really is sad how their relationship has to so often be so mercurial through necessity and how much they have fractured. There is still love between them, despite everything, but with their religious and political differences plus the throne always at the center of their lives, they can never have the close relationships they might want anymore. I don't really see the conversation between Mary and Elizabeth happening in real life, but it was still very well acted and written, plus the sisters actually got to share a laugh for the first time in probably years.

Now both of the Seymour brothers have met their ends at the chopping block, but unlike his brother, Edward at least went out with some dignity, even making peace with Elizabeth before meeting his end. I was relieved when Pedro showed up at the last minute and covered Edward's sons eyes, poor kid. It never stops being crazy to me how many people in this ended up on the chopping block, and often for such petty reasons, half the cast of these shows always end up losing their heads. Edward apologizing for his brothers actions towards Elizabeth, saying how he has a daughter her age, and Elizabeth saying she could never fully hate Thomas despite everything, was a great scene.

Edited August 8, 2022 by tennisgurl

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Lots of drama on the stairs...nice try at slut-shaming, but Elizabeth became the virgin.

Every time someone calls Elizabeth a whore, this is my reaction. I feel offended for her.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I was relieved when Pedro showed up at the last minute and covered Edward's sons eyes, poor kid. It never stops being crazy to me how many people in this ended up on the chopping block, and often for such petty reasons, half the cast of these shows always end up losing their heads. Edward apologizing for his brothers actions towards Elizabeth, saying how he has a daughter her age, and Elizabeth saying she could never fully hate Thomas despite everything, was a great scene.

When they announced this series, I said they had to cast Thomas Seymour well, or it wouldn't work. We needed to hate him, but understand why other people did not. They needed to make him charming enough where by people could believe SOME of the things he was saying, while the audience could be horrified. I think they did well. 

[parrotfeathers]

I am really feeling ambivalent about this series.   It was much darker than I thought it would be and didn't hold my interest.  Does anyone know what Season 2 might bring (if there is one).  

[ferjy]

On 8/7/2022 at 8:05 PM, PinkRibbons said:

I'm finishing up my BA in History, so this show (even if only this season is good) will hold a special place in my heart for reminding me that I actually love history.

We’ll be expecting you in The Serpent Queen threads coming up in September, to keep us in the know. Don’t disappoint us! 😁

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

We’ll be expecting you in The Serpent Queen threads coming up in September, to keep us in the know. Don’t disappoint us! 😁

I agree with @ferjy, I’m looking forward to seeing everyone in The Serpent Queen forum! Also, when are we getting our Eleanor of Aquitaine series??

[ferjy]

55 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree with @ferjy, I’m looking forward to seeing everyone in The Serpent Queen forum!

And I agree with you. 😁 This was a great crowd to discuss the series with. 

[CountryGirl]

Over the weekend, I saw this 3-part series was available: She-Wolves: England's Early Queens.

Part 1 is Matilda and Eleanor

Part 2 is Isabelle (Edward II's wife) and Margaret (of Anjou)

Part 3 is Jane, Mary, and Elizabeth

I've watched parts 1-2 thus far and am saving the final part for later this week.

At least something to tide us over til The Serpent Queen (and, hopefully, a S2 of Becoming Elizabeth).

You can find the videos on YouTube. 

[Haleth]

Oh, cool!  Those are all fascinating women!

[Scarlett45]

On 8/15/2022 at 8:21 AM, CountryGirl said:

Over the weekend, I saw this 3-part series was available: She-Wolves: England's Early Queens.

Part 1 is Matilda and Eleanor

Part 2 is Isabelle (Edward II's wife) and Margaret (of Anjou)

Part 3 is Jane, Mary, and Elizabeth

I've watched parts 1-2 thus far and am saving the final part for later this week.

At least something to tide us over til The Serpent Queen (and, hopefully, a S2 of Becoming Elizabeth).

You can find the videos on YouTube. 

Yup I’ve seen that one. It’s good. 

[racked]

I’ve just binged this show and it was just so well done. Agree with everyone that the actress playing Mary was superb. Also the young actor playing Edward, the deathbed scenes were wonderfully done. Hate that it was 8 short episodes! 

[andromeda331]

I'm glad Pedro covered Little Edward's eyes so he wouldn't see his father's execution.

I love Mary and Elizabeth taking care of Edward. I love Mary's trumphant arrival at the capital and court. I love her three orders. I do feel bad for Edward realizing what was happening when they thought he was dying but at the same time. They all thought he was dying and the succession had to be dealt with. I know it was just a way to explain why he tried to cut Mary and Elizabeth out of succession for Jane. But they really didn't do anything wrong. Elizabeth was following their father's Act of Succession as was Mary. I still felt for all three siblings when Edward throws him out. He's crying, Mary's crying and Elizabeth tried to approach him.

Poor Robert comes back after had been chewed out by his father only for him to praise him and tell him he could marry Elizabeth. Then yell at him for marrying someone else. I didn't like his conversation with Elizabeth thought. Hey, she didn't know the Danish would call it all off. Besides there's little chance that the Privy council would have allowed him to marry her. I feel bad for Amy. That's a horrible situation to be in.

I love that raw scene between Mary and Elizabeth. I don't believe either one that they don't love each other. They really do love each other. The circumstances around them make it harder.

I'm sad their not going to continue the series. There was a lot of really good stuff coming up with poor Jane and Guilford's marriage and reign. Jane did not want to do either but had no choice. It was all her father and father-in-law. Mary's reaction and raising an army and her reign and the destruction of Mary's and Elizabeth's relationship. Mary's imprisoning Elizabeth in the Tower, in the very rooms that her mother stayed in before her execution. Elizabeth really thought she was going to die. Mary imprisoning Jane but refusing to execute her until she had no choice. Mary really did know Jane was innocent in the whole mess. 

[AntFTW]

I rewatched this show recently, and just noticed it was taken off Starz. This show was too good to only have one season. Rewatching it made me appreciate even more how phenomenal the acting was.

Whoever made the call to cancel the show should be in jail because that is just criminal.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I rewatched this show recently, and just noticed it was taken off Starz. This show was too good to only have one season. Rewatching it made me appreciate even more how phenomenal the acting was.

Whoever made the call to cancel the show should be in jail because that is just criminal.

I completely agree.

[Roseanna]

On 8/8/2022 at 3:05 AM, PinkRibbons said:

The mystery being why Edward didn't try to bypass Mary to put Elizabeth (who by this point was super playing up her protestant-ism to make herself a contrast to Mary, wearing black and acting very sober - literally puritanical), his "Sweet Sister Temperance" (and actual nickname for her that he had) on the throne. The show has decided that he saw her agreeing with Mary and counting that as her betraying him. I think that is a bit unfair to Edward. He was a very, VERY smart kid, and he would have known that Elizabeth would have to support the Act of Succession their father had passed as it was written, with Mary as a legitimate claimant. The fact that Elizabeth was even put into that Act was king of a miracle. Edward was unquestionably the rightful heir and even after her loss of legal legitimacy Mary had political clout on the world stage (much of which considered her legitimate). Elizabeth and Anne Boleyn in contrast could have been seen as that time Henry had a mid-life crisis and maybe everyone should all forget about that period. Thing is, Henry just couldn't let go of being head of the church in England, and so Mary was never officially re-legitimized because she fought so hard against losing the pope + took her mother's side and Henry was a vindictive bitch. And then when Henry decided to put Mary back into the succession, well, he couldn't say one child of a divorce he declared had rights and not the other. (Henry divorced Anne before executing her, possibly because he suspected Elizabeth wasn't his, but honestly again I think he was just being a vindictive bitch to Anne.) So in restoring Mary to the line of succession, there wasn't a good reason not to put Elizabeth in. And no one thought she would inherit, so maybe this was Henry extending a weird brand of love to his middle child; she wouldn't rule but she would have the status of a princess even if she wasn't legally so, and he left her a huge amount of wealth. 

(It's hard to judge Henry as a father. Well...sort of. He was terrible to Mary when she fought against him, and he was neglectful to both his daughters. Then again no one ever doubted that he loved Mary even when they fought, and he was known to speak very well of how smart Elizabeth was. Henry loved children in kind of the same way Mary did, so like her, I don't think he held Elizabeth's mother's actions against her for the most part. Her being a girl probably contributed to him not thinking much about her. But it does say something for him that his will left Elizabeth so comfortable, and that he let her into the succession.)

Okay, sorry, very long tangent (and probably more to come), but the mystery of why Edward didn't try to name Elizabeth as his successor? I don't think it was dramatic at all. He tried to overrule his father's Act of Succession by referencing Mary's status as a bastard. By doing that, he acknowledged Henry's divorce from Katherine of Aragon as legal. Since Henry divorced Anne Boleyn in exactly the same way, Edward's hands were tied. He didn't want Mary taking over, but there was no legal ground to stand on to preserve Elizabeth in her position if the act was dismantled, and he made that sacrifice. 

Henry VIII didn't actually divorce from Katherine of Aragon nor Anne Boleyn, both marriages were annulled. That didn't make Mary and Elizabeth bastards, in normal cases they would have been legimate children because they were conceived "in good faith", i.e. when their parents believe to be married to each other. If Katherine had accepted the annulment, Mary would probably retainded her place in succession. The result of Katherine's subborn fight was that Henry wanted no competitor with his children with Anne and later, because of Anne's supposed betrayal, his children with Jane. In later case, before Edward was born, Henry has no successor over a year, as also Fitzroy died. After Katherine and Anne's miscarriages, it's no wonder that Henry wanted all his three children in succession order, although he didn't make his daughters legitime. Maybe if his sister Mary's son had lived, he would have chosen otherwise (or married him to Elizabeth).

As for Edward, his first draft of succession named "the heirs male of Lady Jane" which he only in the knowledge of immediate death changed "the Lady Jane and her heirs male". So it seems tha Edward regarded women as inferior and therefore unfit to rule.    

 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Henry VIII didn't actually divorce from Katherine of Aragon nor Anne Boleyn, both marriages were annulled. That didn't make Mary and Elizabeth bastards, in normal cases they would have been legimate children because they were conceived "in good faith", i.e. when their parents believe to be married to each other. If Katherine had accepted the annulment, Mary would probably retainded her place in succession. The result of Katherine's subborn fight was that Henry wanted no competitor with his children with Anne and later, because of Anne's supposed betrayal, his children with Jane. In later case, before Edward was born, Henry has no successor over a year, as also Fitzroy died. After Katherine and Anne's miscarriages, it's no wonder that Henry wanted all his three children in succession order, although he didn't make his daughters legitime. Maybe if his sister Mary's son had lived, he would have chosen otherwise (or married him to Elizabeth).

Mary had no son. She had a phantom pregnancy and the second one was either another phantom pregnancy or the tumor that killed her.

The only reason Edward went with illegitimate was he needed a reason to strike Elizabeth from the list because he wanted (and was manipulated) Lady Jane. He wanted Mary off the list because she was Catholic and would undo all his work but he couldn't use religion to strike Elizabeth off the list because was Protestant. He had to come up with something else that would he could use to cros both off the list. 

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As for Edward, his first draft of succession named "the heirs male of Lady Jane" which he only in the knowledge of immediate death changed "the Lady Jane and her heirs male". So it seems tha Edward regarded women as inferior and therefore unfit to rule.    

 

Probably, which makes it funny that Lady Jane refused to make her husband King. If she was going to rule, she was going to rule on her own.