S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[SunnyBeBe]

17 hours ago, cmfran said:

Can someone remind me why Lalo keeps visiting Saul? I know Saul represented him last season, retrieved the bail $ in Mexico, etc., but I don't recall why Lalo might still have an issue with him.

I can’t say for sure.  I read a summary to refresh my memory.  It seemed Lalo didn’t believe the story that Jimmy navigated through the desert alone.  I guess he suspected Mike was involved? Jimmy didn’t want him to know his car was shot at.    Idk.  Maybe, someone will chime in.  

[gallimaufry]

He's only visited Saul at home once before.

Lalo heard from Nacho about how Jimmy handled Tuco and hired him to get Krazy-8 to feed false information to the DEA to frame Gus.  Then he re-hired him to defend him when he was arrested for murdering the man at the Travel Wire and asked him to collect his bail money.  Saul arrived late but said his car had broken down which was fine but then, on his way to Mexico, Lalo tracked down the car and found it in the ditch with bulletholes.  He went to Jimmy and Kim's defence was that, in New Mexico, kids would likely have used it to take shots and said that if Lalo can't trust his men, he has bigger problems than if he can trust Saul Goodman.

Now Lalo knows that Nacho was the one who double-crossed him and he was introduced to Saul through Nacho.  On the other hand, he also likes Saul and finds him useful for his cockroach-like survival capabilities and the fact that he has a wife who evidently loves him (as she went to see him when he disappeared) which makes him easy to control. 

[ahmerali]

I think we are all overthinking this. It's already been established that Nacho was working for the Peruvians, at least to Hector and the Cousins. Mike will make it look like the Peruvians offed Lalo and will tell Saul that if anyone ever asks about Lalo, tell him it was Ignacio who dimed him, without giving any details. Simple, makes sense, and ties everything together with Breaking Bad.

If anyone finds the bug at Casa Tranquila (unlikely) then that can also be put on the Peruvians - after all, Hector thinks they want him dead. Rather, Gus can paint the picture that the Peruvians bugged Hector's phone, and it was Lalos own fault that he called Hector, tipping off the Peruvians that he was in town and going after Gus, thinking that Gus was responsible for the hit on him...oh I'm so sorry for your loss Hector. If only Lalo had not been so headstrong, if only you had been in a position to tell him the truth, if only he hadn't said out loud for them to hear that he was coming after me at my house so they could ambush him...fortunately, my men were able to dispose of those cabron Peruvians once and for all, so you are safe now. Poor Lalo though. May I be permitted to give him a proper funeral?

What a knife twist Fring can deliver with that. Hector will have the full guilt of Lalos death...even Tuco and the Cousins will have to at least respect Frings territory, as they do in BB

Edited May 26, 2022 by ahmerali

[ahmerali]

Also: Lalo has one goal right now. Discredit the chicken man to the cartel. If Howard has to die because he has seen Lalos face, if the world has to burn, if millions get killed, that is absolutely irrelevant. He wants Kimmy and Jimmy to do what needs to be done towards that goal. That's it. That is the sum total of his motivation. Anyone or anything else is expendable. I don't believe that shooting Howard was to scare the two. This man has seen my face, I am supposed to be dead, I cannot trust him, so he must die. That's it.

.

[ahmerali]

Jimmys house in the future? Francesca called the movers to get all the stuff out of there and dispose of it as quickly as possible, once Jesse came into Saul's office and threatened him because the jig was up. Evidence is destroyed, and away they go. The only weird thing is the pink panties, and I think that be attributed to someone like Kuby entertaining someone whilst guarding the house, beating a hasty exit with his female friend after getting the call from Saul to abandon ship.

[dwmarch]

18 hours ago, cmfran said:

Can someone remind me why Lalo keeps visiting Saul? I know Saul represented him last season, retrieved the bail $ in Mexico, etc., but I don't recall why Lalo might still have an issue with him.

Werner's widow told Lalo how the lawyers took all the paperwork relating to the secret project Werner had been working on. In that moment Lalo says "lawyers" to put an exclamation point on the lightbulb that just went on above his head. He knows a couple of sneaky, resourceful lawyers who are pretty cool under pressure. Maybe they can help him find the proof he needs. And when he's hanging out in the sewer he sees a cockroach which reminds him to pay them a visit. He referred to Jimmy as a cockroach once when Kim was interrogating him.

[PeterPirate]

Here is an excellent analysis of the episode, imo.  It concludes with a discussion of the psychological motivations of Jimmy, Kim, Chuck, and Walt.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

As much as I would enjoy a Good, Bad, and Ugly-type showdown (with Morricone's music!) and epic end for Lalo, my guess is that the fatal blow will come from a source not considered and as a complete surprise.  Lalo's immediate goal is not proving to Eladio that Gus is quite the schemer.  It is to kill Gus while the killing is good.  Yesterday.  The proof can, and will, follow.

Now that he has "openly" declared himself to be in ABQ, he also opens himself up to being hit.  Who would be capable of such a thing?  Eladio.  Why would he do it?  Because he should now know he can not control Lalo.  At some point, Lalo would be coming for him.

I can also see Lalo somehow making the fatal mistake of putting Kaylee in peril.  That would be the poorest choice of all, from a staying alive point of view.

The vet might be the choice to dispose of anything biological that needs disposing.  Perhaps Mr. P I gets involved, as well.  I am still debating just how crafty that one is.    

It's an open question as to whether and when Walt and/or Jesse make an appearance.  I bet if G & G knew this was to be a mid-season breakpoint, they would have chosen to do it in this ep.  

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:31 AM, Bannon said:

telling a person that their brother died in burning agony, not in his sleep from smoke inhalation, is very hurtful, seems plenty despicable to me.

Who said Chuck died in agony? Did neighbors say they heard screams? Did the Fire Marshall? ALL of this is inference not fact. The fact is, people die of smoke inhalation in most fires. People believe you die screaming in agony, but Howard never said that, or even implied it. Kim said he died in agony to Howard. Is he a being hurtful because Kim put words in his mouth?

[SimplexFish]

11 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Howard's murder would also explain why, four years after the event, Saul thinks of Lalo first.    

This is the only reason why I think that Lalo may not get killed even thought everything at this time points to his demise, namely being killed in the super lab by Gus.

If/when Lalo gets killed in BCS wouldn't Saul surely would be told about it from Mike? He was already told once when Mike thought he was dead. It seems now, after the Howard murder, that Jimmy has even more skin in the game and would know if Lalo was killed. 

[Tatum]

Kim was my favorite character, flaws and all, until this episode. She's been saying for the last two seasons she wants a sustainable way to represent the underprivileged in court, (and I know she's counting on the Sandpiper settlement to fund some of this, but that is a finite resource), and she finally gets a way to at least get the ball rolling in that regard, and she ditches it to stick it to Howard? I don't care how much she hates him, that went way too far.

I had a brief thought that Howard wasn't going to recognize the judge, or would do a private sidebar with Clint, but no, he went full steam ahead. Just like Kim and Jimmy wanted.

I didn't think any of Howard's comments penetrated Kim. She looked bored and unimpressed. She's already decided she's right and he's wrong, and this is merely the ranting of a sore loser. I don't think she wanted him to be murdered, so I have no doubt she is legitimately upset for that, but I don't think she'll hold herself responsible in any way for his death. He came of his own accord; she asked him to leave more than once. Jimmy on the other hand, I think did feel regret after being confronted by Howard and will feel responsible for his death.

While I personally think Jimmy and Kim went way too far and deserve all the disgust in the world for this latest scheme, I wouldn't agree with them being responsible in any way for Howard's death either. That was really an unlucky coincidence, the timing of Howard and Lalo's visits.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Who said Chuck died in agony? Did neighbors say they heard screams? Did the Fire Marshall? ALL of this is inference not fact. The fact is, people die of smoke inhalation in most fires. People believe you die screaming in agony, but Howard never said that, or even implied it. Kim said he died in agony to Howard. Is he a being hurtful because Kim put words in his mouth?

Yes, it is within the realm of possibility that a person who deliberately killed himself, by way of toppling a lamp on very flammable material, did so from a distance from the flammable material, and thus was not concious when his body began to burn.  It is also within the realm of possibility, and I'd argue more likely, that the person was not at such a distance, and thus experienced, quite unpleasantly, his flesh being subjected to extremely high temperatures, prior to losing consciousness. However we may estimate those relative probabilities, it is incredibly cruel, in my view, to explicitly tell a sibling, in the relatively immediate wake of a person dying in a fire, that the person committed suicide. 

We're not going to agree on this, it appears.

[peeayebee]

12 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Well whatever Saul & Kim do with the body they better do it quickly...that's not an air refresher laying there on the floor

I know! I mean, it's going to be weeks that that body is laying on the floor.

12 hours ago, Adiba said:

No idea what Lalo would think or do,  he is unpredictable. But I thought Saul wasn’t supposed to even know Mike, as far as Lalo knows? That’s why I wondered. I can’t see Lalo just letting things hang— he shot Howard because he wanted no witnesses.So I guess we’ll see what the writers have in store for us .

I don't see what it matters to Lalo if Jimmy knows Mike, esp at this stage of Lalo's game. I'm no chess player, so I easily could be missing the many steps ahead.

As far as why Lalo shot Howard, to me it was to intimidate J&K. I think that this type of behavior is so ingrained in Lalo that he doesn't really think, "I need to intimidate these two so I'll kill this guy standing here." Nor does he think, "Here's a witness I need to eliminate." He came to the apartment to get something from J&K, whatever that may be. He instinctively knows that killing this nobody will only help in getting them to do what he wants. Patrick Fabian said in an interview that Lalo killed Howard because Howard was in the way, like a bug, a nothing. 

8 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Werner's widow told Lalo how the lawyers took all the paperwork relating to the secret project Werner had been working on. In that moment Lalo says "lawyers" to put an exclamation point on the lightbulb that just went on above his head. He knows a couple of sneaky, resourceful lawyers who are pretty cool under pressure. Maybe they can help him find the proof he needs. And when he's hanging out in the sewer he sees a cockroach which reminds him to pay them a visit. He referred to Jimmy as a cockroach once when Kim was interrogating him.

Yes, seeing the cockroach made him think of Jimmy. However, I disagree that his echoing, "Lawyer," to Werner's widow was what you saw. To me he was basically agreeing with Margarethe's negative implication about lawyers. Lalo was trying to get on her good side, being sympathetic to her travails and all that. 

[Tatum]

Now that I know that the PI was a mole all along, I am absolutely flabbergasted at how many twists and turns this long con took.

So, when they were arranging Howard's complete and total humiliation, they had to think, okay first, we are going to play a number of pranks on Howard which will eventually be traced back to us, but each prank itself involves elaborate planning and illegal activities which we will outsource, and the cooperation of no less than a dozen people. When it is traced back to us, Howard will inevitably hire his firm's PI company, which we have switched to our guy, and then we can commence with the actual end game. Which really doesn't make sense, because Kim finagled the judge's name out of her former colleague after they'd already set the wheels in motion, correct? I suppose they could have always planned to impersonate whoever the mediator was, regardless of how he or she looked, but that all was dependent on Kim being able to find out the name of the mediator ahead of time.

I get a previous poster's explanation that these elaborate plans are part of the fun, but still. Interestingly enough, if the mediator hadn't broken his arm, and hadn't been in a cast, would Howard have put it together so quickly? Also, what if the mediator didn't have any distinguishing physical characteristics?

For a brief period when the mediator was accounting for his entire morning (on which verification would have been very easy) I thought Howard was going to back down. I wonder if Kim would have used this to justify herself- Howard could have quietly pulled Clint aside or could have waited until the meeting was over to confront him with the pictures, at which point there would be no incriminating pictures- Kim was counting on Howard to steamroll ahead without the proof in front of him (which wasn't really "proof" in the first place- the guy in the pictures wasn't the mediator) and he did exactly what she thought he would do.

[PeterPirate]

51 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Who said Chuck died in agony? Did neighbors say they heard screams? Did the Fire Marshall? ALL of this is inference not fact. The fact is, people die of smoke inhalation in most fires. People believe you die screaming in agony, but Howard never said that, or even implied it. Kim said he died in agony to Howard. Is he a being hurtful because Kim put words in his mouth?

You know, I have posted several times in this thread defending, if not extolling, Howard.  One of my posts on page 5 has 11 likes.  Another has 13.  I take that as as a positive sign that the preponderance of opinion towards Howard is strongly favorable.  Not bad for a character who was born of privilege, who sometimes used his power inappropriately, and was not above putting an ambulatory client into a wheelchair.   

We learned from an article posted in the Media thread that Patrick Fabian was cast because he brought "decency" to the role.   I feel fine making that word the central theme of the Howard character. 

Bannon has stated previously that Howard reminds him of a real-life lawyer he knows, so his thought processes and assumptions are going to be skewed towards supporting that projection.  That's his prerogative.  

And I'm no different.  My family did not have a lot of money but I ended up in a pretty high-end school district.  Yeah there were some rich pricks but I also met a lot of wonderful people who knew how to treat people with respect, and I learned not to prejudge people just because they come from families with money.  Howard makes me think of the good ones, not the bad ones.  For me that is a rare gift from a TV show, especially these days.  

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

You know, I have posted several times in this thread defending, if not extolling, Howard.  One of my posts on page 5 has 11 likes.  Another has 13.  I take that as as a positive sign that the preponderance of opinion towards Howard is strongly favorable.  Not bad for a character who was born of privilege, who sometimes used his power inappropriately, and was not above putting an ambulatory client into a wheelchair.   

We learned from an article posted in the Media thread that Patrick Fabian was cast because he brought "decency" to the role.   I feel fine making that word the central theme of the Howard character. 

Bannon has stated previously that Howard reminds him of a real-life lawyer he knows, so his thought processes and assumptions are going to be skewed towards supporting that projection.  That's his prerogative.  

And I'm no different.  My family did not have a lot of money but I ended up in a pretty high-end school district.  Yeah there were some rich pricks but I also met a lot of wonderful people who knew how to treat people with respect, and I learned not to prejudge people just because they come from families with money.  Howard makes me think of the good ones, not the bad ones.  For me that is a rare gift from a TV show, especially these days.  

I agree with this. From what I've seen, here and in the wider online community, most feel Howard was a flawed but decent guy who did his best under sometimes trying circumstances.

Did he make some mistakes? Who doesn't? But I can't think of a single time he acted out of pure malice. The closest he came was his final speech, and that was after a long and stressful series of experiences.

[Starchild]

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is an excellent analysis of the episode, imo.  It concludes with a discussion of the psychological motivations of Jimmy, Kim, Chuck, and Walt.

I agree with the suggestion that Kim parallels Walter White, I've thought so for a while.

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:01 AM, Gobi said:

In the legal profession, one's reputation is of paramount importance (as demonstrated in the show by the reaction to Saul). Faking the need for a wheelchair would spread, and it would not sit well with Judges and opposing counsel in other cases.

Isn't putting Irene in a wheelchair  just the same as telling Spooge to shave, take a bath, and wear a tie before the Judge. No one considers that "defrauding the court". And it is certainly not sworn to evidence.

[scenario]

6 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Isn't putting Irene in a wheelchair  just the same as telling Spooge to shave, take a bath, and wear a tie before the Judge. No one considers that "defrauding the court". And it is certainly not sworn to evidence.

I've got a bad knee. I walk with a cane if I have to go any distance. I can see someone someday offering me a wheelchair. Just because you can walk doesn't mean that you can walk long distances or stand for long periods of time. A wheelchair could be considered being for the persons comfort. 

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

As far as why Lalo shot Howard, to me it was to intimidate J&K. I think that this type of behavior is so ingrained in Lalo

This take flashes me forward/back to when Hector kills Max. He didn't know Max, and needed to intimidate the new "chicken man".

Plus, he just wanted to talk...

Edited May 26, 2022 by Eulipian 5k
Wibbly wobbly time

[PeterPirate]

35 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I agree with the suggestion that Kim parallels Walter White, I've thought so for a while.

Yes, and I've been thinking about parallels between Kim and Chuck, too.  It's got me thinking Kim is going to develop some real mental health problems.  

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, it is within the realm of possibility that a person who deliberately killed himself, by way of toppling a lamp on very flammable material, did so from a distance from the flammable material, and thus was not concious when his body began to burn.  It is also within the realm of possibility, and I'd argue more likely, that the person was not at such a distance, and thus experienced, quite unpleasantly, his flesh being subjected to extremely high temperatures, prior to losing consciousness. However we may estimate those relative probabilities, it is incredibly cruel, in my view, to explicitly tell a sibling, in the relatively immediate wake of a person dying in a fire, that the person committed suicide. 

We're not going to agree on this, it appears.

If my mom or brother were to die in a fire, I would prefer to imagine that they died peacefully in their sleep from the smoke. If you told me there was a chance they had been conscious and suffered, I would be haunted by that thought and that image for the rest of my life (whether it’s known  💯 that’s what happened). Even the suggestion that they may have suffered and burned alive would be enough to plant those thoughts in my mind forever.

[Tatum]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

As far as why Lalo shot Howard, to me it was to intimidate J&K. I think that this type of behavior is so ingrained in Lalo that he doesn't really think, "I need to intimidate these two so I'll kill this guy standing here." Nor does he think, "Here's a witness I need to eliminate." He came to the apartment to get something from J&K, whatever that may be. He instinctively knows that killing this nobody will only help in getting them to do what he wants. Patrick Fabian said in an interview that Lalo killed Howard because Howard was in the way, like a bug, a nothing.

That's how I took it. Howard standing there was a distraction. I don't think it was about eliminating a potential witness (although Lalo may have thought if Howard ran for it and got help, it would mess up Lalo's interrogation). Kim and Jimmy were yelling at Howard to leave, Howard was talking, Lalo wanted the focus on his needs. Plus, shooting Howard in the head that way would make it clear to K&J that he was not messing around. I am sure he doesn't give two shits what J&K do with the body or if it brings police attention to Lalo (as long as he can get of the apartment first).

32 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Isn't putting Irene in a wheelchair  just the same as telling Spooge to shave, take a bath, and wear a tie before the Judge. No one considers that "defrauding the court". And it is certainly not sworn to evidence.

I'm such a bonehead! That totally did not occur to me that there was any strategic advantage to having the spokesperson in a wheelchair. I thought Howard was just attempting to be gentlemanly to his client, in way that may have been insulting, however unintentional.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Tatum

[peeayebee]

I wanted to mention a little thing that Patrick Fabian does. When he's wheeling Irene to the conference room, he's starting to really feel the effects of the drug, grimacing and so forth. But just before he gets to the door, he puts on a big smile. In an earlier ep I recently rewatched, he does the same thing. I can't recall exactly which ep it is, but he and Kim are walking to the conference room. He has a serious look on his face, but just before he rounds the corner to enter the room... Big smile.

Such a great little touch.

[SimplexFish]

10 minutes ago, Tatum said:

That's how I took it. Howard standing there was a distraction. I don't think it was about eliminating a potential witness (although Lalo may have thought if Howard ran for it and got help, it would mess up Lalo's interrogation). Kim and Jimmy were yelling at Howard to leave, Howard was talking, Lalo wanted the focus on his needs. Plus, shooting Howard in the head that way would make it clear to K&J that he was not messing around. I am sure he doesn't give two shits what J&K do with the body or if it brings police attention to Lalo (as long as he can get of the apartment first).

Bingo!

[Eulipian 5k]

8 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Even the suggestion that they may have suffered and burned alive would be enough to plant those thoughts in my mind forever.

But Howard didn't suggest that. Even if suicide came up, why wouldn't a smart guy like Howie, start a fire, then drink a "peaceful poison", thereby not voiding the insurance he left to Ernesto. If you don't like Howard (like Kim), of course, anything he says would be taken as cruel, hypocritical, and selfish. Kim is not an "impartial  judge" of the man who paid her law school fees. She's now inventing reasons to justify the hatred she already feels.

[Starchild]

I just watched that video that Peter posted in Kim's thread that compared her to an addict when it comes to chasing the high that grifting brings her. I hadn't looked at it that way before but it makes a lot of sense when trying to explain her progression over the series.

It also suggests that her plot was against Howard was less about revenge and more about targeting a representative of the class of person she hates. I think another video called it displacement, though I haven't watched that one yet.

That makes Howard's death even more tragic, that the "wrong-place-wrong-time" aspect applies not just specifically to Howard intersecting with Lalo, but also more generally with Kim. If she had ended up at a different law firm, she might be doing this exact same thing to one of those partners. After all, Howard doesn't seem so different from Cliff or Rich.

[gallimaufry]

Kim was deeply affected by Chuck's death.  At the time, we took this as guilt for her complicity in tearing him down (which she definitely felt in 306).  I do wonder whether the "died screaming" was a projection from her past though.  Did she lose a relative in a similar manner?

This is what makes the whole "soulless sociopath" thing difficult for me to believe.  We know that Kim isn't soulless and yet since 510, they've basically dumped the reasonable, sane side of her personality completely.  That description matches the last eight episodes but I don't find it remotely chimes with the totality of the 57.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Isn't putting Irene in a wheelchair  just the same as telling Spooge to shave, take a bath, and wear a tie before the Judge. No one considers that "defrauding the court". And it is certainly not sworn to evidence.

No, it’s quite different. Having someone clean up for court is normal and even expected. Having someone show up in a wheelchair who has never used one and did so at the behest of her attorney is misrepresentation at best. 

[Tatum]

26 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

This is what makes the whole "soulless sociopath" thing difficult for me to believe.  We know that Kim isn't soulless and yet since 510, they've basically dumped the reasonable, sane side of her personality completely.  That description matches the last eight episodes but I don't find it remotely chimes with the totality of the 57.

I agree. Kim is not soulless at all. And while she's been grinding viewers' gears for awhile now, I think her turning the car around and blowing off the legal justice meeting to frantically regroup so Howard's orchestrated downfall goes on as planned is completely inconsistent with her character. I get that she is singularly focused and does not like to leave things unfinished, but this whole "equal legal representation for everyone" goal has been her priority for a long time.

And I am not sure I really understand her hatred of Howard. I guess he represents everything she thinks is wrong with the legal system and is basically classism personified, but she has always been principled in her own way and this doesn't track.

What I do think is interesting about Kim is that I do think she has the ability that Jimmy lacks to justify things to herself. She doesn't have to feel guilt that way.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Tatum

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

I've got a bad knee. I walk with a cane if I have to go any distance. I can see someone someday offering me a wheelchair. Just because you can walk doesn't mean that you can walk long distances or stand for long periods of time. A wheelchair could be considered being for the persons comfort. 

Yes, but you have a bad knee. She does not and told Howard she never uses a wheelchair. Howard had to talk her into it.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Gobi said:

No, it’s quite different. Having someone clean up for court is normal and even expected. Having someone show up in a wheelchair who has never used one and did so at the behest of her attorney is misrepresentation at best. 

It still seems like in this case, it's like if she was using a wheelchair at the airport. She can walk, but she's an older lady who in some contexts would just be put in a wheelchair for convenience for her or somebody else. They could easily just say she was tired that day for the trip over etc., imo. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

I just watched that video that Peter posted in Kim's thread that compared her to an addict when it comes to chasing the high that grifting brings her. I hadn't looked at it that way before but it makes a lot of sense when trying to explain her progression over the series.

It also suggests that her plot was against Howard was less about revenge and more about targeting a representative of the class of person she hates. I think another video called it displacement, though I haven't watched that one yet.

That makes Howard's death even more tragic, that the "wrong-place-wrong-time" aspect applies not just specifically to Howard intersecting with Lalo, but also more generally with Kim. If she had ended up at a different law firm, she might be doing this exact same thing to one of those partners. After all, Howard doesn't seem so different from Cliff or Rich.

Thanks.  I really like the video that person did about Kim's "reaction formation".  To me it explains everything Kim has done in this show except explain why she was drawn to Jimmy in the first place. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Gobi]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It still seems like in this case, it's like if she was using a wheelchair at the airport. She can walk, but she's an older lady who in some contexts would just be put in a wheelchair for convenience for her or somebody else. They could easily just say she was tired that day for the trip over etc., imo. 

While it’s a common trope in movies and tv for a client to wear, for example, a phony neckbrace, in real life it’s not worth the risk. This is not a personal injury case, but if you lose credibility you lose everything. Howard was trying to garner sympathy from the mediator. Sweikert, who had never seen her before, would realize that and be sure to question her about it. If she really needed one, he’s no worse off, if she doesn’t he’s made Howard and her look bad.

[Bannon]

56 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

But Howard didn't suggest that. Even if suicide came up, why wouldn't a smart guy like Howie, start a fire, then drink a "peaceful poison", thereby not voiding the insurance he left to Ernesto. If you don't like Howard (like Kim), of course, anything he says would be taken as cruel, hypocritical, and selfish. Kim is not an "impartial  judge" of the man who paid her law school fees. She's now inventing reasons to justify the hatred she already feels.

A life insurance policy is typically only voided  within a year of the of the policy being taken out, and changing the beneficiary (pretty likely that Chuck didn't take out a new policy for Ernesto) has no effect on that. Why mentally ill people choose their methods of suicide is a complicated issue, but deliberately killing yourself in a housefire is such an enormous outlier that speculation as to the precise reasoning is likely of limited value. Why it wouldn't be considered extremely cruel to tell a sibling that their brother died by suicide in that manner is what I find puzzling.

[Bannon]

The term "sociopath" is thrown about very loosely. The vast majority of people who do really, really, terrible things are not sociopaths. From what we have seen on this show, Jimmy/Saul and Kim are not sociopathic.

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, Gobi said:

While it’s a common trope in movies and tv for a client to wear, for example, a phony neckbrace, in real life it’s not worth the risk. This is not a personal injury case, but if you lose credibility you lose everything. Howard was trying to garner sympathy from the mediator. Sweikert, who had never seen her before, would realize that and be sure to question her about it. If she really needed one, he’s no worse off, if she doesn’t he’s made Howard and her look bad.

If he does that, especially in front of a jury, he looks like an A-hole attacking an elderly plaintiff on a matter completely irrelevant to whether Sandpiper engaged in fraudulent billing practices.

(edit) As an added thought, a mediation session is not like a deposition, where sworn testimony is taken, and refusal to answer a question can have a negative inference attached to it. If Schweikert were so unwise as to start asking questions about the wheelchair use, there's no way Howard wouldn't shut it down, while castigating opposing counsel for raising irrelevant issues that have nothing to do with the facts of the case. My biggest question about Howard employing the wheelchair is why he would do it; an experienced mediator certainly would not be affected by it, and mediators have little formal power anyways. The only answer I have is sending a message to Schweikert that this would be a nightmare case for Sandpiper to go to trial with. I can certainly see the argument that Howard wouldn't do it because it is of limited value. In real life, I suspect plaintiff's counsel would actually want a plaintiffs' repesentative who actually did use a wheelchair occasionally, precisely because of the sympathetic response it would gain from a jury. In real, real, life, this would never get to trial, given the clear set of facts, up to and including the attempted spoliation of evidence at the outset. I don't mind writers not showing civil litigation wholly accurately. Nobody would watch a show that did.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Bannon

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

smile. In an earlier ep I recently rewatched, he does the same thing. I can't recall exactly which ep it is, but he and Kim are walking to the conference room. He has a serious look on his face, but just before he rounds the corner to enter the room... Big smile.

He does this when he and Kim were meeting Kevin's delegation after she cold called to get their business. He's telling her she'll wallow in Doc Review, and then puts on the cheesy smile as the clients approach.

Notice how hyper he was; the vet said it's like a couple of Red Bulls (go Liepzig!). He's getting warm and Clifford is "just fine". He's bouncing off walls!

[Gobi]

38 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If he does that, especially in front of a jury, he looks like an A-hole attacking an elderly plaintiff on a matter completely irrelevant to whether Sandpiper engaged in fraudulent billing practices.

Which is why he would do it at the mediation or in depositions if the case is going to trial. Credibility is always relevant. If she and Howard are lying about needing a wheelchair, what else are they lying about? Attorneys do not want their clients to lie, ever. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Gobi

[SimplexFish]

41 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A life insurance policy is typically only voided  within a year of the of the policy being taken out, and changing the beneficiary (pretty likely that Chuck didn't take out a new policy for Ernesto) has no effect on that. Why mentally ill people choose their methods of suicide is a complicated issue, but deliberately killing yourself in a housefire is such an enormous outlier that speculation as to the precise reasoning is likely of limited value. Why it wouldn't be considered extremely cruel to tell a sibling that their brother died by suicide in that manner is what I find puzzling.

Ernesto? I must have missed something with him, what does he have to do with Chuck's life insurance policy?

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Which is why he would do it at the mediation or in depositions if the case is going to trial. Credibility is always relevant. If she and Howard are lying about needing a wheelchair, what else are they lying about? Attorneys do not want their clients to lie, ever. 

An elderly person using a wheelchair is not a lie. My thoughts about it being used in a mediation session were added above.

[PeterPirate]

I found the scene wherein Kim berates Howard.  To help the discussion, here it is:

Frankly, Kim was accurate with her analysis.  Howard didn't tell Rebecca what he told Jimmy and Kim.  

Still, I would not use "cruel" or "despicable" to describe what Howard did, since they connote an intent to do harm, and even Kim acknowledged that Howard spoke because he felt guilty.  The term I would have used--assuming that I was rational and not displacing my own feelings onto the other person--would have been "crappy".  

Edited May 26, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Ernesto? I must have missed something with him, what does he have to do with Chuck's life insurance policy?

I think Howard mentioned, when describing how Chuck's will distributed his estate, said that there was a life insurance policy in which Ernesto was one of the beneficiaries. I just assumed he'd been added at some point. A death by suicide wouldn't affect the payout.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I found the scene wherein Kim berates Howard.  To help the discussion, here it is:

Frankly, Kim was accurate with her analysis.  Howard didn't tell Rebecca what he told Jimmy and Kim.  

Still, I would not use "cruel" or "despicable" to describe what Howard did, since they connote an intent to do harm, and even Kim acknowledged that Howard spoke because he felt guilty.  The term I would have used--assuming that I was rational and not displacing my own feelings onto the other person--would have been "crappy".  

Like I said before, "thoughtlessly cruel" is probably a better description.

[Gobi]

Just now, Bannon said:

An elderly person using a wheelchair is not a lie. My thoughts about it being used in a mediation session were added above.

It is a lie by misrepresentation. How would a jury feel about this testimony:

"Ma'am, we're in court today concerning your billing from Sandpiper. I have here the previously submitted list of all your bills.  I notice that there is no bill for your wheelchair. Was that provided to you free of charge by  Sandpiper?"

"No."

"Did you already have the wheelchair when you moved to Sandpiper?"

"No."

"When did you purchase the wheelchair?"

"I didn't buy it, Mr. Hamlin gave it to me."

There is no reason why Howard would have given her a wheelchair in real life. It's not worth whatever advantage he might hope to gain.

[Eulipian 5k]

41 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Why it wouldn't be considered extremely cruel to tell a sibling that their brother died by suicide in that manner is what I find puzzling.

Chuck died when his house burned down; whatever the reason. The agony of his death would be up to the griever to imagine. Howard said nothing that Kim or Jimmy should take as "conscious, dying in agony". He never said it; Kim said that. Her entire rant was her anger and guilt, even the part about "rooting thru ashes" to find mementos; Howard never said that. I didn't follow her 'logic' at the time except that she was standing up for Jimmy. Jimmy cared not a wit for the estate settlement and Kim took it upon herself to go. She even ranted about Chuck's letter as if Howard wrote another 'F - U' to Jimmy.

Howard didn't know it, but he was being 'played' as the one to take away Jimmy and Kim's guilt for destroying Chuck's life. Don't forget who did that.

[monagatuna]

It was a stroke of genius to hear "[the effects] will really depend on how sensitive you are to caffeine" after we saw that Howard prefers tea to coffee. Sure, tea can have caffeine, but usually in lower doses than coffee--and there's a good chance Howard prefers chamomile himself. 

That drug must've been really uncomfortable to Howard. I used to take half a dose of 12-hour energy during bar exam study, and its effects scared the bejesus out of me.

[Eulipian 5k]

17 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Ernesto? I must have missed something with him, what does he have to do with Chuck's life insurance policy?

It's a joke, Chuck wouldn't even leave a tip for Ernesto. But suspicions of suicide must cloud payout to whomever his beneficiary was.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Chuck died when his house burned down; whatever the reason. The agony of his death would be up to the griever to imagine. Howard said nothing that Kim or Jimmy should take as "conscious, dying in agony". He never said it; Kim said that. Her entire rant was her anger and guilt, even the part about "rooting thru ashes" to find mementos; Howard never said that. I didn't follow her 'logic' at the time except that she was standing up for Jimmy. Jimmy cared not a wit for the estate settlement and Kim took it upon herself to go. She even ranted about Chuck's letter as if Howard wrote another 'F - U' to Jimmy.

Howard didn't know it, but he was being 'played' as the one to take away Jimmy and Kim's guilt for destroying Chuck's life. Don't forget who did that.

As I said previously, if someone thinks that a suicide by house fire does not automatically greatly increase the likelihood of a painful death, as opposed to a accidental death by house fire, thus  it isn't very cruel to needlessly tell a sibling that such a death was a suicide, I respectfully disagree.

In no post have I ever blamed Howard for "destroying Chuck's life". I did accurately note that Howard was a terrible business partner and friend, by avoiding the hard things that are demanded of a business owner who has a partner suffering a severe mental illness. None of that mitigates the wrongful behavior ofJimmy or Kim, of course.

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

Having someone show up in a wheelchair who has never used one and did so at the behest of her attorney is misrepresentation at best. 

But Spooge never uses soap and never wears a tie 😁. Why isn't cleaning up not an attempt to sway the Jury with non evidence?