InShane in the Membrane

[kj4ever]

I've been thinking a lot about Shane.

 

Did Lori contribute to his decent into becoming InShane?

 

Did he have designs on Lori before the fall?

 

Most importantly, why on God's green earth would he want full custody of Lori and Carl?

 

If Lori wouldn't have asked him to stay (before the whole pregnancy was revealed) and he would have left, would he have become a Governor type character?

[eejm]

I've been thinking a lot about Shane.

 

Did Lori contribute to his decent into becoming InShane?

 

Did he have designs on Lori before the fall?

 

Most importantly, why on God's green earth would he want full custody of Lori and Carl?

 

If Lori wouldn't have asked him to stay (before the whole pregnancy was revealed) and he would have left, would he have become a Governor type character?

 

I don't think Shane was hot for Lori before the world went to hell.  I think that both mistook their grief from Rick's supposed death as well as the stress from surviving hand to mouth as love or passion and went with it. 

 

Shane seemed like a very complex character to me from the start.  When they first became friends (high school?), I think Rick hero-worshipped Shane a bit for his success with the ladies.  I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Shane was a star athlete too, whereas Rick was always just an ordinary kid.  Shane liked having a follower, and Rick was probably happy to be friends with a cool guy.  The relationship worked in a weird, co-dependent way.

 

Later, Shane and Rick had work in common.  This kept them friends as they always had something to talk about, but I get the idea that this is the first occurrence in which Shane did not outshine Rick.  Not that Rick was a better cop than Shane (or vice versa), but that Rick’s more steady handed approach could also bring good results as opposed to Shane’s spontaneity.  Shane may not have realized it, but this shifted the dynamic in their relationship – they were now on more equal footing.

 

After the apocalypse but before Rick found the group, Shane was busy protecting Carl and Lori.  I think Shane found out at that point that while chasing women had been fun before the ZA, he’d kind of missed out on having a stable, long-term relationship and a family.  When Rick showed up, and Lori chose Rick over Shane (which was probably a first, a girl picking Rick over Shane), Shane finally realized that he was jealous of Rick.  Rick had a family who was still alive and most of the group seemed to gravitate toward Rick’s more even-handed leadership.  Rick was now the alpha male while Shane was relegated to a reluctant follower.

 

I think had the ZA never happened, Rick and Shane may have fallen out as friends because what originally brought them together was no longer applicable.  Shane’s womanizing and hotheadedness no longer seemed to impress Rick.  Shane probably would have realized that he was lonely without a family.  The fact that they still lived and worked in the same place where they grew up was probably the one thing keeping the friendship together. 

 

As to whether Shane would have become a Governor-like character, I don't know.  I don't think he was so deeply insecure like the Governor that he needed a bunch of adoring followers to feed his narcissism.  That said, Shane did seem to be particularly threatened when people disagreed with him.  He also liked being the dominant protector.  So...maybe?

Edited August 13, 2014 by eejm

[kj4ever]

Did Lori contribute to his decent into becoming InShane?

 

I really think she did.  Whether it was a conscious effort or not I'm not sure, but she did a whole lot of back and forth with him (granted, not that she loved him, but that she wanted him there/didn't want him there) and I think it gave him hope.

 

Did he have designs on Lori before the fall?

 

I also think this could be true.  In the pilot when he asked about Lori I remember it seemed shady, not like a friend that was concerned.  Then during his attempted rape of her he said something along the lines of "you know this was a long time coming".  I really like eejm's thoughts about how Shane probably outshone Rick until they got older and he didn't know how to handle Rick being the star.  He came off as a misogynistic pig whenever he talked about women, unless he was with Lori.  I think he might have been wanting her/Carl for awhile.  Grass is always greener they say.

 

Most importantly, why on God's green earth would he want full custody of Lori and Carl?

 

While binge watching Seasons 1 and 2  I pretty much hoped Lori and/or Carl would get bit.  Yes I am an evil person that wanted a child to die.  Hopefully it would happen while he was in the house so that they would finally know where he was.

 

If Lori wouldn't have asked him to stay (before the whole pregnancy was revealed) and he would have left, would he have become a Governor type character?

 

I think if he found another group of survivors he would definitely be the leader, but I don't think he would have the vision to build something like Woodbury.  I do think he would go half-way Governor evil and would do really bad things to keep his group alive.

Edited August 13, 2014 by kj4ever

[Watcher0363]

About two years ago I had this discussion with two women. My conclusion was that Lori is or was one of those women who have very strong pheromones. Thus she can easily influence most men and downright mesmerize some. And if you make the mistake of sleeping with her, that magic vagina of hers will influence your destiny for the rest of your life. As I explained it to them with these women it is never so much about their looks. They were given a special power, some recognize it early and use it well. Others never really grasp the nature of their power, but use it anyway often unintentionally. I think Lori, the way the writers wrote her fell into the latter. On the show all the men seem to pay attention to Lori and did her bidding, taking risk for her,  in some form or another. Except maybe for Daryl, but near the end there even Daryl seemed to be under Lori's spell.

 

Bottom line Lori is one of those women who can make you strong. With the price being ever obedient to her needs. Even in your deepest hate of her, her health and welfare comes first. When it came to women Shane had always been the puppet master. But with Lori he found himself on the other end of that spectrum. Shane could have lead well with Lori by his side as her  willing / unwilling protector. But to have to live with an undying desire for someone who you must be around everyday but can not have will drive anyone crazy in that bat shit way.

[NurseGiGi]

I've rewatched the first season many times and I'm convinced that if Lori had used a different approach with Shane from the beginning things would have turned out differently.  And I don't really see Shane as a Governor type.  I think he would probably be brutal in trying to protect his group but I don't see him going to the extremes that the Gov did.

 

I've given some thought about whether or not I think there was an attraction between Shane and Lori before the ZA and I just don't know.  I find eejm's thoughts on all this very interesting, though.

[ghoulina]

Shane finally realized that he was jealous of Rick.  Rick had a family who was still alive and most of the group seemed to gravitate toward Rick’s more even-handed leadership.  Rick was now the alpha male while Shane was relegated to a reluctant follower.

 

I can see this. It's quite possible Shane had never been rejected before. Not only did Lori immediately return to her husband, but the group seemed to quickly gravitate towards Rick being their leader, whereas it appeared Shane had been more or less filling that role before he showed up. We saw Shane aiming the gun at Rick in the woods in those first few days, before they even left CDB. He was starting to lose it early on and I don't think that was solely or even largely because of Lori - she hadn't really flip flopped on him at this point. But here he is contemplating killing his so-called best friend.

 

Shane was a very complex character. I don't think of him as solely a bad guy. I think he really all loved Rick, Lori, and Carl - but it became very conflicting for him after Rick's return. He stepped up to love Lori and Carl as more than just "Uncle Shane", and then he had to come back from that - which can't be easy to do.

[ghoulina]

As I was watching season two last night, I got thinking about how the ZA really highlighted how different Shane and Rick were. When they were cops, those differences weren't really a problem - because there is a set protocol to go by. And their opposite personalities probably kept them balanced. But when the world comes to an end, there are no rules. And Rick and Shane seemed to immediately veer towards complete opposite ways of doing things. 

 

I just think their is so much to the breakdown of their friendship, it's not just the Lori thing - although that is a large part of it. But if there was no Lori, I still think they would have struggled. The more I think about eejm's post whilst watching, the more I can see how Shane just doesn't like seeing Rick step up and be the leader, the one everyone relies on. 

 

The first time I watched this show, I HATED Shane. When he killed Otis I was completely done with him. I thought he did it to save Carl, but I saw it more as being about saving Carl to win Lori back. And I felt like he was totally cold about it. Not that he had it out for Otis and WANTED to kill him, but that he could really care less. So many re-watches later, I'm like - "what was I thinking?" I can totally see now just how much Shane genuinely loved all three of them, and how much killing Otis damaged him. He didn't want to do it. At all. But he couldn't see any other way. And when he got back he was really wrestling with that decision and I think in order to live with it he just had to shut everything down and "go full Shane", as the interwebs say. Poor Shane. Now when I watch I feel really sorry for him. 

 

In that love triangle, I cannot put the blame entirely on one person. I really just think they were victims of shitty circumstances, causing them to make some mistakes that turned into life changing problems. 

[kj4ever]

I've rewatched the first season many times and I'm convinced that if Lori had used a different approach with Shane from the beginning things would have turned out differently.  And I don't really see Shane as a Governor type.  I think he would probably be brutal in trying to protect his group but I don't see him going to the extremes that the Gov did.

 

I've given some thought about whether or not I think there was an attraction between Shane and Lori before the ZA and I just don't know.  I find eejm's thoughts on all this very interesting, though.

I don't think Lori had an attraction to Shane, but I definitely think Shane had an attraction to Lori...

 

One thing I missed on rewatch of the whole Otis situation is that Shane told Otis to leave him and get the medice to Carl because they both wouldn't make it, but Otis refused.  So Shane took him out when it became obvious that he was right.

 

That puts him in a little better light, even if he still sucks for killing Otis.

[ghoulina]

Yea, at that point I just think he didn't know what else to do. I'm not saying it was right, and I don't think I would have done it - but it was down to either they both die and Carl doesn't get the supplies or one of them dies and the other gets back. They both had hurt their ankles, but Otis had quite a few more pounds bearing down on his. I just can't see another way out at that point. The problem is, they didn't think the entire thing through from the beginning. They devised a decent entry strategy, but not an exit strategy. Big mistake right there.

[kikismom]

I was okay with Shane shooting him. Not that I got my jollies watching that, but it made sense by the math.

 

If you shoot the other person, one person is dead.

If you don't shoot him, three people die at least : Both men at the high school die, Carl dies, I say maybe more because if somebody doesn't come back, is anyone else going to go looking for them? Judging by the way they went back for Merle, the way the went looking for Sophia, the way they went rescuing Glenn from the Vatos etc. I would bet yes. And the rescue searchers would be Daryl and Glenn who were the only ones in any shape at that point to do it.

 

I hate when people say oh I'd never do that I would die with honor by Otis' side use our last bullets to kill ourselves leave no man behind bring him back or die at his side. This was not a battle to kill walkers. Killing walkers was a "side-effect" of the real mission which was to get that medical supply back to the farm.

 

If I was Otis, I would hope I would have offered myself. He's the one who made it necessary in the first place, he's the one who shot the kid. Shane was willing to sacrifice to save Carl, but Otis wouldn't trade himself for the kid he shot. So who was the self-serving one?

 

I give the show credit for having both men believably injure their ankles. This prevented an "easy-out" resolution with one man injured so the healthy one should run. There was a level playing field in that respect, so the question came down to making a tough choice between 2 sucky possibilities. Much better ethical quandary.

Edited August 24, 2014 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

My only issue is - why shoot him in the knee? Why leave him to be eaten alive by walkers and suffer like that? If he had killed him, the walkers still would have stopped to feast, right? The body was still warm. 

[walnutqueen]

His screaming and thrashing would attract more walkers away from Shane, I'd imagine.  :-(

[kikismom]

My only issue is - why shoot him in the knee? Why leave him to be eaten alive by walkers and suffer like that? If he had killed him, the walkers still would have stopped to feast, right? The body was still warm. 

If zombies are like melons, they are also like smallmouth bass--if you took a dead earthworm off your driveway they wouldn't eat it. Bass--and walkers--like'em nice and lively.

But we are in the very confusing TWD medical universe. Zombies will run across a municipal parking lot to lick a finger cut on a school bus door, but they won't lick great puddles of fresh blood off the asphalt where T-Dawg spilled it on the highway. Severed heads will snap and snarl, and the infected--- like WinnebagoJim ---will sweat and twitch and hallucinate; but when Herschel's infected bitten leg was chopped off in prison it didn't get feverish and seize and do the hokey-pokey all by itself.

Supposedly the show-runners once said that how much time it takes for you to turn depends on "how much life force you had" at the time of your death, like Shane popping up undead within seconds. But I thought Amy was full of vim and vigor and she was in idle all night. This is plot-driven incubation.

Shane was a creep-ass, but you can be an observant creep-ass. Just like he's the only one on the highway smart enough to get a vehicle that wasn't a 30-year-old POS, he apparently noticed all those cars full of dead people that hadn't turned. The ones who didn't appear to have been in a collision either. The ones with the windows open; yet the walkers passed on them like a box of month old stale crullers in the break room. He made sure Otis would pass the freshness test like a fish at the market: look for clear eyes, firm pink flesh, the smell of a fresh catch.

[GodsBeloved]

If I was Otis, I would hope I would have offered myself. He's the one who made it necessary in the first place, he's the one who shot the kid. Shane was willing to sacrifice to save Carl, but Otis wouldn't trade himself for the kid he shot. So who was the self-serving one?

Given that Otis refused to leave Shane behind, I don't have a problem believing Otis would have given his life to save Carl. Not for one minute do I see Otis as being self serving especially when comparing him to Shane.

[kj4ever]

Snip

Supposedly the show-runners once said that how much time it takes for you to turn depends on "how much life force you had" at the time of your death, like Shane popping up undead within seconds. But I thought Amy was full of vim and vigor and she was in idle all night. This is plot-driven incubation.

Shane was a creep-ass, but you can be an observant creep-ass. Just like he's the only one on the highway smart enough to get a vehicle that wasn't a 30-year-old POS, he apparently noticed all those cars full of dead people that hadn't turned. The ones who didn't appear to have been in a collision either. The ones with the windows open; yet the walkers passed on them like a box of month old stale crullers in the break room. He made sure Otis would pass the freshness test like a fish at the market: look for clear eyes, firm pink flesh, the smell of a fresh catch.

Shane was the beginning of the insta-turn, wasn't he?  I don't think we've ever waited a long time for anyone to turn since the mentioned the longest documented was 8 hours at the CDC.  In "Infected" it seemed like all those people just turned immediately, didn't it?

[kikismom]

Shane was the beginning of the insta-turn, wasn't he?  I don't think we've ever waited a long time for anyone to turn since the mentioned the longest documented was 8 hours at the CDC.  In "Infected" it seemed like all those people just turned immediately, didn't it?

Yeah, I really don't understand why nobody's doing experiments. After all this time going by!

Not the stupid experiments poor Milton was doing to see if walkers had memories of music and shit. Do some in-the-field study on different effects and capabilities and weaknesses. To my knowledge, there is Morgan saying that they could hear and smell good, and that he thought they were less active at night. When the guys clear the prison, there is a moment Rick says they have c-4 (nerve gas) canisters and he says he doesn't know if it will work but it's worth a try. Then that's it.

 

They should be trying all kinds of stuff to test the sight, hearing, smell, and odd possible weapons--laser pointer in the eyes? Freon on the face up close? Bleach or household chemicals (in a pesticide sprayer!) see if there are other ways to stop an attack, to hide from walkers etc.

Keep track of time it takes to turn, the victim's other characteristics, and see if a pattern emerges.

 

How convenient that Milton didn't turn immediately (but stupid Andrea keeps pausing) Shane turns right away behind Rick's back! etc etc. everyone turns at the best possible dramatic moment. Lucky!

"Infected "  could have taken a whole season if they turned as slow as Amy!

[kikismom]

Given that Otis refused to leave Shane behind, I don't have a problem believing Otis would have given his life to save Carl. Not for one minute do I see Otis as being self serving especially when comparing him to Shane.

I respect your difference of opinion.

 

If Otis would have given his life to save Carl...why didn't he? Why didn't he just tell Shane "Go, save the kid, I want to stay behind." He doesn't. If there's ever a moment to prove you would die to save a child, that was it. Like Daryl telling the Merletones, Take my blood, not theirs. When was Otis going to do this--if it gets bad enough?

Otis refused to leave Shane behind, but he seemed to think they could both get out. With 1 round left in each gun. I guess the right thing to do is shoot myself in the leg; it's a done deal, now you gotta escape, go!

I also think Otis shouldn't have gone. We already know the moment Carl is shot that Otis can't run across a field without nearly collapsing when he wasn't being chased, wasn't in unfamiliar territory, was in broad daylight. You go into a place you know was overrun by walkers, and you can't run, you can't climb, you can't fit through some of the windows? He said he had to go because Shane wouldn't know what a respirator looked like? Well, when you're EMT you have a manual you keep and he lived on the farm with Patricia and the Greenes. He can't show Shane or sketch one? If it was a whole hospital maybe, but it was a little trailer... how much shit did they have that would look like a possible respirator? You can pass on the pills, liquids, bags, blood pressure cuffs, stethoscopes...not like there's a lot of other shit he could wrongly grab. Or grab a bunch of stuff that looks good. All my equipment actually has stuff printed about it with warnings for use, etc. Shane had a flashlight. Glenn was smart and agile and quick.

This is one place where Daryl was wrong. When he is talking with Dale (Randall debate) and says Shane killed Otis because only Shane came back, with Otis's gun, Dale says maybe Otis got pinned down by walkers. And Daryl says Otis could handle walkers, he's the one who put them in the barn. Well, Daryl didn't consider that Otis put them in the barn one at a time with a catch-pole. He was never surrounded by a herd at night.

Yes Shane was self-serving also; but in the case of getting what was needed for Carl, he was understanding that both men wouldn't make it. He could have shot himself in the leg, but Otis was so slow he probably still would have been caught.

[ghoulina]

I don't have a problem with Otis going. His knowledge would have had them in and out of the medical supplies trailer a lot quicker. It was the HOW they did it that was annoying. Like I said previously (pun intended), they devised a good strategy to get in, but none to get out. What they should have done was have Shane drive one of the cop cars in the opposite direction with the lights flashing and throwing flares down the road. Lead them away from the parking lot. Once Otis had gathered everything, he could have whistled, and Shane could have sped the hell up, zoomed back there, grabbed Otis, and gotten the fuck out of dodge. Walkers aren't THAT fast, and Shane could have rammed them with the car if he needed to. Also, he would be relatively safe inside of it, so that's one less person that needs to be popping off rounds every five minutes. 

 

As for how quickly Shane turned - I thought Dr. Jenner said anywhere from 2 minutes to 8 hours? I'd need to rewatch (again!), but that's stuck in my head. At any rate, I didn't necessarily think Shane turned immediately, as in a manner of seconds. There seemed to be a bit of leeway for how long Rick was standing out there by himself. He might have been in a "state" for a little bit, before Carl showed up. I don't think they were entirely clear on this, but that was the impression that I got. 

[kj4ever]

Ghoulina that is exactly why InShane would never have been a good leader. He just acted and didn't think things through.

[kikismom]

 What they should have done was have Shane drive one of the cop cars in the opposite direction with the lights flashing and throwing flares down the road. Lead them away from the parking lot. Once Otis had gathered everything, he could have whistled, and Shane could have sped the hell up, zoomed back there, grabbed Otis, and gotten the fuck out of dodge. Walkers aren't THAT fast, and Shane could have rammed them with the car if he needed to. Also, he would be relatively safe inside of it, so that's one less person that needs to be popping off rounds every five minutes. 

 

THAT is an excellent plan! When the spit hits the fan, ghoulina should be in charge of blitz rescues, runs, and other mobile strategies!

[mandolin]

I agree they definitely could've had a better exit plan (though I imagine everyone was so worried there wasn't much clear thinking happening), but in the show's timeline, they hadn't really had a "strategy" for dealing with walkers, right? There had yet to be a situation where they did anything other than simply defend in event of an attack. By episode 1 of season 3, I think they'd developed a sense of working together and knowing how to deal with the walkers a bit more pro-actively. Planning, rather than just waiting for walkers to mosey up and then kill them.

 

ETA: I guess Rick had the plan to get them out of the building in Atlanta, but I guess I view that differently for some reason.

Edited August 26, 2014 by mandolin

[GodsBeloved]

I respect your difference of opinion.

 

If Otis would have given his life to save Carl...why didn't he? Why didn't he just tell Shane "Go, save the kid, I want to stay behind." He doesn't. If there's ever a moment to prove you would die to save a child, that was it. Like Daryl telling the Merletones, Take my blood, not theirs. When was Otis going to do this--if it gets bad enough?

Otis refused to leave Shane behind, but he seemed to think they could both get out. With 1 round left in each gun. I guess the right thing to do is shoot myself in the leg; it's a done deal, now you gotta escape, go!

I think you answered your own question. Otis believed they both could make it out. It doesn't make sense for him to shoot himself if he believes they can both get out alive. 

 

I agree that Shane was a poor planner here. He knew sound attracted the walkers and he should have done something silimlar to what Rick did when he got the group out of the department store in Atlanta. Shane could have also done something similiar to what Rick did when Shane was hold up in that bus. Shane, it seems thought Rick was leaving him to the walkers because there seemed to be no way out for Shane. Instead Rick came back and saved Shane from what look to be a hopeless situation.

 

We will never know if a limping Otis and a limping Shane would have made it out because Shane made the choice to cut Otis off at the knees.

Edited August 26, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[ghoulina]

Ghoulina that is exactly why InShane would never have been a good leader. He just acted and didn't think things through.

 

Yea, Shane was way too hot-headed. He thought he would be a good leader because he was "tough" and would make the hard calls. But, IMO, you don't want someone super weak, but you also don't want someone who's TOO pragmatic. Shane said many times that he only cared about Lori and Carl, so why should he lead a group of people if he doesn't really care about them? He probably would have been better as a loner. And, really, at the end of the day, he couldn't make those tough calls all the time. He was as gobsmacked as the rest of them when Sophia came out of the barn. It was Rick who stepped up and did what needed to be done. 

 

THAT is an excellent plan! When the spit hits the fan, ghoulina should be in charge of blitz rescues, runs, and other mobile strategies!

 

LOL, thank you! The problem is, I'm notoriously bad under pressure. It's easy for me to think up a situation from my cozy couch. But I still say I would never have gone into that medical trailer without a plan to get out. That's one thing my husband has always pressed upon me - have an exit strategy. 

[momlyd]

 

Shane, it seems thought Rick was leaving him to the walkers because there seemed to be no way out for Shane. Instead Rick came back and saved Shane from what look to be a hopeless situation.

I don't think Shane was wrong to think this. I did, too. And, given all that had just happened between the two of them, I think Rick was okay with just leaving.

 

But when Rick got back to where the vehicle was and saw the the two cops (who may have been partners in preZA days), he knew he couldn't just leave Shane. He had to save him even though it would seriously complicate life back on the farm to return with him after the brawl.

 

But that is Rick's character and the story line. 

[mandolin]

I never noticed it much until recently, but Shane is a mouth-breather. It's kind of distracting.

[RedheadZombie]

GodsBeloved, on 14 Oct 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

 

I agree. I do wonder if the show will have the guts to show one of the "good" guys, one of the guys we have been with since the beginning, slipping so far down that slope and turning "bad".

 

 

I think many would say that Shane fit this description.  Personally, I don't see Shane that way, and I loved that flawed character.  He started as a bit of a sexist pig, but took on saving Lori and Carl, as well as the others in CDB.  He understood better than anyone at that time, that there were some horrible decisions they would have to make.  I don't think Shane shot Otis to save himself, I really think he did it to make sure he could save Carl.  And even though he did sacrifice Otis, that decision tormented him, and IMO drove him over the edge.  Rick was portrayed as the good guy, while Shane was the bad guy.  Yet Shane was the one who couldn't bring himself to kill his best friend.  That's not to say I don't love Rick - he's my favorite character.  I couldn't watch the show if I didn't love Rick.  The show is really his story ultimately.

 

And if Rick is tainted by that decision to turn over Michonne, we must remember that Hershel did not protest that decision.

[kikismom]

I think many would say that Shane fit this description.  Personally, I don't see Shane that way, and I loved that flawed character.  He started as a bit of a sexist pig, but took on saving Lori and Carl, as well as the others in CDB.  He understood better than anyone at that time, that there were some horrible decisions they would have to make.  I don't think Shane shot Otis to save himself, I really think he did it to make sure he could save Carl.  And even though he did sacrifice Otis, that decision tormented him, and IMO drove him over the edge.  Rick was portrayed as the good guy, while Shane was the bad guy.  Yet Shane was the one who couldn't bring himself to kill his best friend.  That's not to say I don't love Rick - he's my favorite character.  I couldn't watch the show if I didn't love Rick.  The show is really his story ultimately.

 

And if Rick is tainted by that decision to turn over Michonne, we must remember that Hershel did not protest that decision.

Agree with most except the last part...Herschel did tell Rick "You're wrong, it's a mistake." and Daryl shook his head and said "That's not us, man."

[RedheadZombie]

Agree with most except the last part...Herschel did tell Rick "You're wrong, it's a mistake." and Daryl shook his head and said "That's not us, man."

 

I'm glad, I need to re-watch.  That decision has always bothered me.

[mandolin]

But didn't Hershel also say something like, "If it's between her and my daughters..." or "I'd do anything to protect my daughters?" He didn't love the idea of giving up Michonne to be sure, but she wasn't his first concern.

[nodorothyparker]

I could swear Daryl said something like "I'm not telling you it's wrong but I'm not saying it's right either."  The point is that all of them seemed determined to go along with handing over Michonne anyway until well after Merle had left the building, which means had Merle had not had a change of heart the decision would have stood.

 

On topic, I always liked Shane in all his mouthbreathing, misogynistic, slightly batshit glory.  He was actually right about things more often than not, but his approach was terrible and his jealousy of Rick as both Lori's husband and group leader always got the better of him and made him easy for them all to dismiss.  Rick in the early seasons did often try to insist that the rules of the world hadn't changed and that they didn't need to adapt to it.  He did have a tendency to dither on hard decisions and change his mind when the outcome wasn't what he had in mind.  Shane recognized that.  It kind of makes me wish at times that Shane had lived to see what Rick and the group as a whole have become because I think he would have been a more natural fit in this version than the one where Dale led them all through tortured pontifications on the meaning of life and whether they should let a guy they all agreed was a threat live or die.

Edited October 15, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[lawless]

Shane was a complicated guy, and often, not such a great guy, but I always felt like we got a skewed view of him, because he was secretly constantly panicked, and didn't live long enough to get past it.  It's hard to remember now, but everyone was so, so terrified by the Walkers in the beginning -- quite understandably.  It was a major sea change when, at the beginning of Season 3, Rick and the gang acted like a well oiled machine and took out small groups of walkers and ignored solo ones if they were far enough away.  Not so when Shane was alive -- a single Walker was cause for terror and cowering from most of the group, and most of the women and children were completely helpless.  I think Shane was secretly terrified all the time, and he latched onto Lori and Carl with a death grip to cope.  They gave him purpose, Shane had a genuine love for them both, and they were a connection to the safe, civilized past.  So long as they needed him and were a little family unit, Shane had hope, he felt strong by comparison, he had a place in the world and a reason for going on -- to keep them all safe and together.  Maybe it also felt like being Rick, who was probably always the more stable of them, and that made Shane feel like he could handle this new world too.  And then the real Rick came back from the dead, unknowingly shattered the shield Shane had erected to keep the terror and despair at bay, and Shane began to unravel.  He fixated on Lori, and irrationally contemplated shooting Rick early on to put things back the way they had been -- I think that impulse took Shane by surprise as much as us.  In somewhat saner moments, he planned to go off on his own to prevent a terrible conflict with Rick and Lori, but then circumstances stopped that.  I think he was riddled by guilt and self-loathing by the situation with Otis, and was torn between trying to harden himself further because he felt he had to in order to survive in the new world, but also driven by despair and guilt into provoking a conflict with Rick to commit suicide by Rick. 

 

If he had been able to keep it together long enough for the initial internal panic to subside, and for the evolution the group took by the beginning of Season 3, I'm not sure what he would have been like.  However, I think he always had bullying propensities, and was hotheaded and shortsighted.  He differed from Rick very much in that way.  On the Talking Dead people compare Shane to where Rick is now, but I think that to the extent that someone has inherited Shane's pragmatism and willingness to kill in order to live, I think it's Carol.  Though she's much colder compared to the hotheaded Shane, I can see both Shane and Carol coming to many of the same conclusions about how to handle "problems" that Carol comes to now.

[Iguessnot]

I would only disagree in that Shane would do things to maintain a certain leadership. Carol's decisions never had that consideration in mind.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Iguessnot

[raven]

Honestly Shane was a great character; he had a viewpoint I didn't agree with it but I could understand where he was coming from and I think Jon Bernthal was terrific.  I think he did a bad job of leading the camp and was too obsessed with Lori.  He sent people to do things he wouldn't.  He shouldn't have let the walkers out of Hershel's barn and only did that to prove a point; he could have picked off them off from the loft if he wanted.  He beat the crap out of Ed and everyone's Yay! because Ed was an asshole BUT Shane beat the crap out of him because he was pissed at Lori.  Shane took it way too far but it's excused because Ed was a wife beater.

 

He loved Carl (I enjoyed their scenes together) but I always thought he shot Otis to save himself and wasn't thinking of Carl (he had about 3 seconds, he's really thinking, hmm what's best for Carl?  No).  Which, OK, just don't try to use the Carl cover for what you did.  He could have shot Otis in the head, the zombies would have eaten him anyway; we see them eating the fresh dead all the time.

 

Shane came from a place of what he wanted, what was best for him first; he couldn't see beyond his own viewpoint and we see this with how he views Rick.  Was Shane right about how brutal the world is now?  Absolutely.  He loved Rick - we see this in the flashback hospital scene - but he was also very wrong about how Rick would respond to the world and that Rick wasn't ready.  By killing Shane, Rick did the thing that Shane would probably have sworn he (Rick) would never do; my opinion is that Rick had that ability all along. 

[ghoulina]

It was Shane who beat Ed to a pulp for victimizing the worlds biggest victim, Carol, and let it be known that he would not tolerate the menfolk acting a fool with the women folk.

 

 

Except himself? As in when he attempted to rape Lori?

 

IMO, Shane only went after Ed because he saw an opportunity to unleash all his pent up anger and Rick riding in and fucking up Shane's game.

[Artsda]

Loved Shane and his mentality for this world, I thought he was a good leader for this world and Rick was in the wrong. Now Rick is trying to act more Shane like (kill everyone) while Glenn is now the Rick in the scenario.

 

When it came for the search for Carol's daughter, Shane was right they were searching, they were all going out on their own, they were risking their lives all because Rick insisted they keep searching. When odds were that she was turned long ago. Darryl almost died searching and the kid was already a zombie and in the barn 5 feet from them. That showed to me Rick's mentality was too idealistic for the zombie world they lived in and Shane more adapted as a leader. I loved Jon's portrayal and thought that he would have been a better leader, Rick has gotten most of the originals dead because of his decision making including his wife.

 

Now you see Rick being more like Shane.

[raven]

 

Except himself? As in when he attempted to rape Lori?

I forgot about this.  He was really cracking by then.

 

I still maintain that Shane's best scenes were with Carl.  I don't think Shane was the son of Satan but he was shown to be devolving (steal Gareth's word) and his certainty that there was only one way, his way, led to his downfall. 

 

It was while he was conflicted that he was interesting to me; when he showed affection to Carl or Rick, when he seemed to consider leaving with Andrea.  The more brutal, the more predictable, for me anyway.

Edited October 20, 2014 by raven

[GodsBeloved]

When it came for the search for Carol's daughter, Shane was right they were searching, they were all going out on their own, they were risking their lives all because Rick insisted they keep searching. When odds were that she was turned long ago. Darryl almost died searching and the kid was already a zombie and in the barn 5 feet from them. That showed to me Rick's mentality was too idealistic for the zombie world they lived in and Shane more adapted as a leader.

Now you see Rick being more like Shane.

I have wondered if it was Carl instead of Sopia would Shane have sung the same song.

[Timetoread]

Hey!  Honestly I agree with much of what you wrote.  I've debated Shane a lot off line and I always say that the Shane we saw was a guy stuck in truly one of the crappiest situations out there, but he had nowhere to go with it.   I believe that his love for ALL of the Grimes was real and that he was at constant war between what he wanted (and can't we float this guy a NEEDED - he's a human being and probably as traumatized as anyone else but he poured all his emotion into what he got from loving Lori and Carl) and the choices that were being made for him.  Rick came back and ALL of his comfort was pulled away.  Rick took everything, including his standing as the leader of the group.  That's got to be hard.  And angry, though he was, he seemed to finally be making peace with it until Lori turned up pregnant and shut him out of that as well - which I found VERY unfair.

 

We disagree about Otis.  I think he killed Otis because he needed to prove to himself that he would do ANYTHING for Lori and Carl, which would make him the better choice than Rick who he didn't think was capable of that.  But he underestimated his friend and overestimated himself - he was never the same after killing Otis.  Still I think Shane was really on the path to suicide.  He had no recourse and had no support system left.

 

I don't excuse Shane's faults but I have NEVER understood why he has been painted with the same brush as the Governor who was simply a monster.  Shane was capable of love and compassion and loved quite a few people, but those people ultimately shut him out and that shut him down.  But I don't think he'd lost sight of right from wrong and I do believe that if Dumbass Lori had let him just leave, HE might have been the one to save the group from Terminus.  Like Rick, he was a cop.  And I think what is missed in the summations of him is that everything notwithstanding, Rick loved him too and trusted him with his son.  Rick is not overly trusting.  Shane was probably MOSTLY a good guy but didn't fare well under the circumstances in which he found himself.

[raven]

A LOT of credit goes to Jon Bernthal.  He made Shane sympathetic at times, to me anyway, which is why I could understand where he was coming from at times.

[Timetoread]

Except himself? As in when he attempted to rape Lori?

Yeah, the unpopular opinion still mine...I never thought of that as an attempted rape. I didn't fear for Lori or the women of the world. I thought Shane had hit rock bottom. He was drunk and hurting and wanted Lori to comfort him and CHOOSE him - as she had many times before Rick came back. He was sloppy and FUBAR and pushed too hard and she lashed out at him. But he didn't hit back or fight her - and seriously you could cough and knock Lori over. He took his reproach and headed back down the hall to sleep it off. He then kept his distance.

And yes, Ed was more about anger, but Ed DID deserve it, so I don't care about him. Shane didn't treat others like that. Dale put a gun on him and he didn't do anything. Maggie slapped and he did nothing. Rick confronted him and he looked at the ground. Hothead? Yes. Monster? No.

[Timetoread]

A LOT of credit goes to Jon Bernthal. He made Shane sympathetic at times, to me anyway, which is why I could understand where he was coming from at times.

Absolutely! I am thrilled to see his career taking off - really the ONLY WD alumni that has moved to the big screen. I appreciated that he fleshed out this character. I simply abhor shows that turn the bad guys into demonic, mustache twirling killing machines and the good guys into special snowflakes who are basically Bambi and Thumper with a .357 magnum. We are all capable of good and bad and our motivations can be very deep and not always clearly understood by others and ourselves.

I have wondered if it was Carl instead of Sopia would Shane have sung the same song.

Would Rick have?

[LilySilver]

Except himself? As in when he attempted to rape Lori?

Yeah, the unpopular opinion still mine...I never thought of that as an attempted rape. I didn't fear for Lori or the women of the world. I thought Shane had hit rock bottom. He was drunk and hurting and wanted Lori to comfort him and CHOOSE him - as she had many times before Rick came back. He was sloppy and FUBAR and pushed too hard and she lashed out at him. But he didn't hit back or fight her - and seriously you could cough and knock Lori over. He took his reproach and headed back down the hall to sleep it off. He then kept his distance.

And yes, Ed was more about anger, but Ed DID deserve it, so I don't care about him. Shane didn't treat others like that. Dale put a gun on him and he didn't do anything. Maggie slapped and he did nothing. Rick confronted him and he looked at the ground. Hothead? Yes. Monster? No.

I agree with this, but it is a difficult matter of degrees, and either way you frame it Shane comes out at least as a brutish pig in that situation. Yes, he pushed harder than he should have trying, imo, to get a consensual response from Lori. Yes, he was drunk and boorish and out of line, and I think a step further and he would have crossed a line into a territory I would call attempted rape. It was uncool and exactly the attitude we brush off in "rape culture", so it's hard to draw the line and I know terribly unpopular to do so. But he did back off. And he was ashamed of himself (not that that would excuse attempted rape). I don't have a problem with people who see it the other way either. It was a fine line. To me it seemed that he hoped, stupidly, that she would respond as she had in the past.

Shane was so conflicted, and was driven crazy by the love he had for Rick, for Lori, and for Carl. I think he was driven crazy, too, by what he did to Otis. It seemed to me that it ate away at him. All the while, he knew that being conflicted as he was created a danger to those he loved. One has to be single-minded in the ZA!

One of the most moving scenes to me in the whole series is when Shane is opening the barn and Rick is yelling something like "No, BROTHER, don't do this!" As much as we all love the relationship between Daryl and Rick, I often remember that this is how Rick felt about Shane as well. He loved him. And I think Shane was right, really, about most everything. Yet I prefer Rick's approach in struggling to retain his humanity even if keeping things complicated and unsure puts them all at risk, regularly. Shane's approach would keep them alive but risk and ultimately sacrifice their humanity.

I absolutely believe Shane shot Otis so that he could make it back to Carl with the medicine. I do think that in that moment as they were running it was clear they weren't going to make it. Both of them weren't going to make it. So he shot Otis to give one of them a chance to get back, conveniently himself, but he was the one who could get there I suppose. He could have said, "Otis, GO!" And sacrificed himself. But Shane really had the best shot at it. It was completely cold and calculated and awful, and at the time I thought it tortured him.

All that said, I'm Rick's girl all the way and Shane grated on my nerves--probably because anyone that silly for Lori had to be an idiot. I only liked Shane inasmuch as Rick clearly loved him.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dougal

[ghoulina]

Darryl almost died searching and the kid was already a zombie and in the barn 5 feet from them.

 

I really can't blame that on Rick. The way Daryl was back then, I feel like he would have been searching for that girl no matter what. He chose to go out that day that he almost died. He wasn't Rick's righthand man yet. Hell, he wasn't even very comfortable with most of the group at that point. He WANTED to find that little girl. If the group had decided to move on, I don't know that he would have gone with. 

 

I have wondered if it was Carl instead of Sopia would Shane have sung the same song.

 

Exactly. I think that's where Shane was lacking as a leader. I think he had tunnel vision and only cared about Lori and Carl. A leader needs to care about everyone in his group. And finding Sophia meant something to them; it wasn't just about appeasing Carol. 

 

I don't excuse Shane's faults but I have NEVER understood why he has been painted with the same brush as the Governor who was simply a monster.

 

I don't know, I can kind of see the comparison. I've always theorized that Guv was a good family man before the turn, and losing his daughter (who was all he had in the world, after losing his wife shortly before the turn) drove him mad. Some people just don't deal with trauma well, while others can push through it. I don't think Shane was a bad guy before the turn. I agree with you that he ended up in an impossible situation, and the losses he suffered drove him a bit mad as well. I don't know, it's hard to judge Shane because he wasn't around long enough - but I could see him making some of the same choices The Governor did. 

[LilySilver]

Yet Shane himself acknowledged that he only cared about those he loved, and urged Rick to do the same.  It was to risky to be the "leader" of a disparate group.  Shane urged self-interest openly, and he backed that up with action.  (And he went crazy and lost at least some of his humanity.....)

[Pete Martell]

It was also Shane who kept the ENTIRE group together in check, a group that included Merle, before Rick even got there. It was Shane who beat Ed to a pulp for victimizing the worlds biggest victim, Carol, and let it be known that he would not tolerate the menfolk acting a fool with the women folk.  It was Shane who saved Rick's raggedy ass family in the first place AND saved Rick.  Shane wasn't this indiscriminate killer that people have built him up to be - he wasn't the Governor.  He wasn't a Termite.  He killed Otis (who shot Carl), Randall (from the marauding band of rapists) and attempted to kill Rick (and I believe he was far gone by this point from grief and jealousy) - but he never harmed ANYONE in their group and went through it all WITH them, not against them.   I don't have enough time to count up Rick's body count, including Shane. "I killed my best friend for you people!"  "I killed Shane because he was undermining my authority."  Whatever.  Rick's no freakin Saint and Shane wasn't Satan's little brother.  Both are/were flawed.  Both made good and bad decisions.  Both did the best they could.  And both had HORRIBLE taste in women (looking at you Lori).  I see why they were best friends - two sides of the same coin.

 

 

Shane had the group at a time when they were still tip-toeing around each other, but that wasn't going to last. The powder keg Rick found on the roof was proof. (and I never understood who let a racist, misogynist drug addict go on a run with women and minorities)

 

I don't think Shane is the devil and I don't think Rick is a saint, but there's always this idea that Shane knew all the answers and any time Rick makes a tough decision, he must be doing what Shane taught him. Or Carol must have learned from Shane.

 

Shane was a very reactionary man who was having a complete mental breakdown at the worst possible time for him to be having one. I don't think he deserved to die, but I think he'd died long before that stabbing.

 

I think that's why I'm interested in Carol's story when they actually get it right (which is 50/50), because it explores the darkness of that mindset, yet, they aren't writing Carol as a foil, the way Shane was for Rick/Lori, so that leaves them more room on where to go with her.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Madding crowd]

I liked Shane and thought he and Rick complimented each other until all the Lori crap went down. Shane  tried to save Rick, he took care of Lori and Carl and led the group during a scary time. So I am not surprised when he was hurt and confused when Lori just acted like nothing happened as soon as Rick showed up. She also should have been honest with the pregnancy and gave Shane a right to be part of the baby's life (of course he didn't live that long).

 

I have no issue with Shane choosing Carl's life over a man he just met. I know I would do the same thing if it were my own child, as much as I would like to claim I would just allow myself and the child to die. I don't think Shane was the same kind of crazy as the Gov, if nothing else because Shane was already a police officer, not a frustrated pencil pusher with heads in an aquarium.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Madding crowd

[Nashville]

Hey!  Honestly I agree with much of what you wrote.  I've debated Shane a lot off line and I always say that the Shane we saw was a guy stuck in truly one of the crappiest situations out there, but he had nowhere to go with it.   I believe that his love for ALL of the Grimes was real and that he was at constant war between what he wanted (and can't we float this guy a NEEDED - he's a human being and probably as traumatized as anyone else but he poured all his emotion into what he got from loving Lori and Carl) and the choices that were being made for him.  Rick came back and ALL of his comfort was pulled away.  Rick took everything, including his standing as the leader of the group.  That's got to be hard.  And angry, though he was, he seemed to finally be making peace with it until Lori turned up pregnant and shut him out of that as well - which I found VERY unfair.

 

So we're all agreed, then - it's all Lori's fault. I'm ok with that.

[GodsBeloved]

I have wondered if it was Carl instead of Sopia would Shane have sung the same song.

Would Rick have?

I'm not sure I'm following you. My point was would Shane have wanted to stop searching and risking lives if it was Carl who was missing. Rick showed that he was willing to continue to look for Sophia and he would have done the same for his own child.

Exactly. I think that's where Shane was lacking as a leader. I think he had tunnel vision and only cared about Lori and Carl. A leader needs to care about everyone in his group. And finding Sophia meant something to them; it wasn't just about appeasing Carol.

This is how I saw it too. If Shane is going to be leader, he needs to be equitable.

[kj4ever]

Except himself? As in when he attempted to rape Lori?

Yeah, the unpopular opinion still mine...I never thought of that as an attempted rape. I didn't fear for Lori or the women of the world. I thought Shane had hit rock bottom. He was drunk and hurting and wanted Lori to comfort him and CHOOSE him - as she had many times before Rick came back. He was sloppy and FUBAR and pushed too hard and she lashed out at him. But he didn't hit back or fight her - and seriously you could cough and knock Lori over. He took his reproach and headed back down the hall to sleep it off. He then kept his distance.

And yes, Ed was more about anger, but Ed DID deserve it, so I don't care about him. Shane didn't treat others like that. Dale put a gun on him and he didn't do anything. Maggie slapped and he did nothing. Rick confronted him and he looked at the ground. Hothead? Yes. Monster? No.

Attention all peeps, especially any young women out there.

When you are saying NO, STOP IT, STOP IT, NO and man man continues to shove his fingers between your legs and only stops when you physically harm him IT IS ASSAULT/and or attempted rape.

No amount of alcohol or past relationship status gives someone the right to do this to you.

/PSA

[ghoulina]

Shane had the group at a time when they were still tip-toeing around each other, but that wasn't going to last. The powder keg Rick found on the roof was proof. (and I never understood who let a racist, misogynist drug addict go on a run with women and minorities)

 

I doubt there was any "letting" with Merle. I don't think Shane had total control of that camp. A good majority, yes....but the Dixon brothers were clearly doing their own thing. 

 

I also think Shane had the group at a time when they hadn't yet faced any true dangers. They were camping out at that quarry like it was just a weekend get-a-way. The night Ed and Amy bit it was the first time walkers had descended upon them. After that they left, wound up on the farm, Rick was clearly in charge....and Shane died like a week later. So, honestly, we never really got to see how he would be as a leader long-term in this world. 

 

But even from what we did see, he clearly, IMO, didn't always make all the best decisions. The way he and Otis went into that trailer with no plan on how to get back was so effing stupid. You'd think as a cop he'd always be thinking of the next step. They could have both gotten out of there alive if they'd devised a plan before even going in. I don't blame him for shooting Otis. But I do think the entire thing could have been avoided.

Edited October 21, 2014 by ghoulina