BB Past Players: Dr. Will, Maggie, Dan, Dick, et al.

[Irritable]

Who will go down as making a bigger mistake Howie or Christine?

 

 

 

The virtual body's not even cold yet, but when I read this I thought, "Christine...Christine...what season was she on?  I don't remember a Christine..."

[Scout Finch]

NM

Edited September 10, 2014 by Scout Finch

[choclatechip45]

 

I never knew people didn't like Ian! I liked him on the show and like him now. Did I think he should win? Of course not. But he's alright.

 

I am pretty indifferent to Ian. I think he deserved to be in the final 2. Even though I was rooting for Dan. His tweets about Nicole are creepy.

ETA

 

You're not alone. I like Ian too. I did, however, get annoyed that it took him a little too long to realize that he alone won by default -- no one was gonna give it to Dan twice, even if he deserved it (and I think Danielle would have beaten Dan, too, as crazy as that is).

I was always suprised the fact Dan won once before never came up during Jury Questions. It was such an obvious question Why should you win twice? I think Danielle would of had Shane's, Jen and Joe's Vote. For some reason Britney didn't seem to like her all that much come finale night. By the way speaking of Danielle I think she has had one of the best edits this show has ever given someone. I liked her on the edited show and than I turned on the feeds she was such a different person and not in a good way.

Edited September 10, 2014 by choclatechip45

[Irritable]

After watching all of Season 2 and mostly enjoying it for the nostalgia, and also because it's just so much better than Season 16, I tried to start Season 3 next and only made it through 15 minutes of the first episode before I tapped out.  It came flooding back to me how much I couldn't stand Chiara and Tonya the first time around, and how much I never did care about any of the others except for Amy.  When I was googling for information so that I didn't have to watch any footage to be reminded of what happened, I found that a few years ago Tonya had been charged with two counts of reckless homicide, due to a series of deadly accidents she caused while driving drunk.  I thought she was a real sleazeball on the show, but that is really heartbreaking.  I haven't been able to find anything about what her eventual sentence was, but her bond was set at a million dollars, and I hope she rots in prison for a long time.

[choclatechip45]

I was re watching the season 11 finale and I have to say I am pretty impressed with Jordan's Jury answers and final speech. I've always liked Jordan, but I was surprised how well she did plus her season was the first one with the new final 3 format. and did not know the jury questioning would be in front of a live audience.

[Morbs]

David Girton from season 15 has been tweeting  lots of nudes, even bending over, and videos of him masturbating.  His tweets are also really odd, like he is having some sort of mental health issue.

[choclatechip45]

So is Cody not taking Derrick the worst move in BB History? The only thing that comes close IMO is Ivette not taking Janelle. However, Janelle would of have recieved some votes so its not as clear cut.

[Cramps]

I loved Chicken George. He was so unintentionally funny. Like when people shot candy over the wall of the house, and not knowing who or where it came from, he ate it anyway.

The best thing to ever happen in Big Brother was during Season1 when ALL the house guests almost decided to quit the show in the middle of the season. In protest over something silly--I can't remember what, but I remember I went on the then free (and very slow) feeds to watch.Genius!

Season 2 - Kent entered the house homophobic, but through his friendship with the gay Bunky, he quickly changed his beliefs. Their friendship was sweet and genuine, and Kent turned out to be a nice guy who was a lot more open minded than even he thought he was.

Hated Mike Boogey every season he's been on the show. Loathed him and Will and Shannon.

Favorite all time player was Danielle from Season three.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Cramps

[ZSweetJane]

So is Cody not taking Derrick the worst move in BB History? The only thing that comes close IMO is Ivette not taking Janelle. However, Janelle would of have recieved some votes so its not as clear cut.

I can think of two or three pretty stupid moves off the top of my head.

Lawon being placed on the block by his own alliance (and he volunteered) so he could be voted out when an evicted houseguest was scheduled to return to the house. He happily did it because he thought he would get a special power when he re-entered (WTF?). How ANYONE thought he could win the competition that would return him to the house, I'll never know. Soooo stupid.

Then there was Marcellus in BB3, who won the first Golden Power of Veto, which allows you to take yourself off the block. He chose not to use it. He was evicted and Julie slapped him on the head with her notecards and asked him what was he thinking.

In BB6, in the Pressure Cooker endurance comp, Kaysar, who had been evicted and just voted back in by America, chose to trust a member of the Friendship (Ivette?) and essentially dropped out of the comp, resulting in his eviction on the following Thursday.

LOTS of stupid moves in the BB house. Hard to pick the worst.

Edited September 26, 2014 by ZSweetJane

[choclatechip45]

 

In BB6, in the Pressure Cooker endurance comp, Kaysar, who had been evicted and just voted back in by America, chose to trust a member of the Friendship (Ivette?) and essentially dropped out of the comp, resulting in his eviction on the following Thursday.

As stupid as Kaysar was too accept the deal with Jennifer. It was just as stupid for Jennifer since she went from being on no ones radar to being evicted the next week.

 

Marcellas it was dumb, but it would who knows what could of happened at Final 4. I chose this one because the whole point of Big Brother is to win and Cody directly ruined his chances at the money.

[Sweets McGee]

As stupid as Kaysar was too accept the deal with Jennifer. It was just as stupid for Jennifer since she went from being on no ones radar to being evicted the next week.

 

And didn't she say something the next week to the effect of, "I sacrificed myself for the group." As if that's the point of Big Brother. What an amazing brainwash job Maggie did on that whole alliance.

 

[choclatechip45]

 

And didn't she say something the next week to the effect of, "I sacrificed myself for the group." As if that's the point of Big Brother. What an amazing brainwash job Maggie did on that whole alliance.

I think so! She did Maggie's dirty work. Maggie is the only BB winner to run a cult.

[peachmangosteen]

Ian's super gross on twitter about a lot of women, Nicole is just the latest one. I never liked him because even on the feeds you could tell he had some fucked up views on woman. He freaks me out.

 

There's been some discussion on the finale thread about previous players and we've been told to bring it here, so that's where these quotes are from

 

Seriously. I'm so sick of the micromanaging strategist. So glad you brought up Jordan -- a masterful social game can be just as good a strategy as comp wins. Micromanaging everyone to within an inch of their lives is not the only legitimate way to win a game and not the only definition of "great player."

 

I'm getting sick of it, too. If only because it seems to be the consensus that you aren't a good player unless you play the way Derrick/Dan did and that's so annoying. On Jordan, in BB13 I hated her. She was awful and entitled. But I loved her in BB11 and I will always defend her win. Impeccable social game and actually some strategic smarts as well. Plus she won comps at the end when she needed to. I actually think she played a better game than several other winners. She did get lucky with the rigging (that was for Jeff, but she benefited from it), but most winners have luck as like probably 50% of their winning really.

 

As for Danielle, I liked her game a lot overall, but come on, you can't get past the elephant in the room - she ripped the people voting for the winner in Diary Room entries that SHE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO SEE BEFORE THEY VOTED. So that knocks her down a lot for me. Still a very good player, though. 

 

THANK YOU! I like Danielle, but she played a pretty important part of the game very stupidly and she rightfully lost for it. Plus she was pretty bad in All Stars, IMO. Very stupid. Funny as hell, though. I'll never forget her ringing the HOH room doorbell like a crazy person. Memories!

 

I did not see those rigged seasons.  Can anyone briefly tell me how TPTB did this? 

 

Well, let's start with BB8. That was Dick's season. There was a twist called America's Player. One HG was selected to play 'for America' and every week we voted on how we wanted them to vote on eviction night (among other things, like who to get nominated and other silly things as well). The show was edited to make Dick into some of kind of good family man/hero even though he was actually a despicable, disgusting person who threatened to rape Jen on multiple accessions, poured tea on her head, and burned her with a cigarette. Anyway, due to the terrible editing, Dick was 'America's' favorite and thus, Eric, America's Player, had to save him every week and then, ultimately, vote for him to win. But the time of the final voting, Eric could do as he chose, but he knew from all the AP votes all season that Dick was being edited to be the favorite and thus he knew that was the winner Production wanted. He has actually talked about this a lot post show and has called Production out on it. This season is probably the most heavily rigged one.

 

In BB11, Jeff (and Jordan to a lesser extent) were very popular and AG (the producer) loved Jeff. He was not in the majority alliance that was running the game and therefore was screwed, so there was an America's Vote to give a player the Coup D'etat, which allowed them to remove both nominees from the block on eviction night and replace them with their own choices. Jeff, of course, won.

 

In BB13, Production wanted Jeff to win the game. Barring that, they would've taken any veteran winning. This is pretty obvious because when Porsche won HOH, she was given a Pandora's Box (which it's common knowledge the HGs are forced to accept) that brought back the duos twits and therefore saved Rachel and Jordan from being evicted. Rachel ended up winning, which would have very likely never happened if that PB hadn't been brought into the game. Also, I believe that up until that point the PB was always told to the audience beforehand, but that time it was not, which implies to me that they made it up on the fly when they knew Rachel/Jordan were in danger. Also, it's not confirmed, of course, but widely speculated that when Jeff was nominated in the DE, his lane had the clown shoes they needed to retrieve to win veto at the very top on the heap. He ended up losing through because he threw one out of the bin. It was the greatest DE ep of all time IMO!

 

Those are the biggest examples of the rigging Production likes to pull.

Edited September 28, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[choclatechip45]

Everyone likes to call "rigging" on Rachel's pandoa's box, but people forget that the house guests  had 2 chances to get rid of Rachel by that point and they did not. Even without bringing back the duos twist it was pretty obvious they were going to get rid of Jordan that week not Rachel. Porsche, Kalia and Shelly had already saved Rachel twice. They should of gotten rid of her in the double eviction instead of Jeff. Jeff & Jordan were playing a bad game up to that point and weren't doing that great in competitions compared to Rachel.

 

I hate Dick, but who knows what would have happened that season without America's player. Eric has also said he would of tried to get rid of Nick no matter what. One of the biggest reasons he was able to get rid of Nick was because he could blame the hinky votes on Nick. Would Eric trying to get rid of Nick without America's player paint a bigger target on Eric? Who knows for all we know without America's player Nick & Kail could of made it to jury. Which means Dick has two more allies. The one thing I will give Dick props on was his social game with Zach. He was the only one besides Mike and Kail to give Zach the time of the day. Everyone else in the house especially Danielle, Jessica and Eric would call Zach creepy. Reason why I bring this up? During the double eviction, Zach did not use the veto on either Eric/Jameka which would of meant Dick had to put up Danielle. The things is I hate Dick, but he has his fans.

 

ETA

 

In BB11, Jeff (and Jordan to a lesser extent) were very popular and AG (the producer) loved Jeff. He was not in the majority alliance that was running the game and therefore was screwed, so there was an America's Vote to give a player the Coup D'etat, which allowed them to remove both nominees from the block on eviction night and replace them with their own choices. Jeff, of course, won.

 

One thing to add to this the alliance running the house was pretty unpopular maybe as unpopular as the Nerd Herd. People voted for Jeff because everyone knew he would do something about it. The editing that season made the unpopular alliance look better they were vile on the feeds.

Edited September 28, 2014 by choclatechip45

[peachmangosteen]

Nothing to see here!

Edited September 28, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[peachmangosteen]

In general I don't have much of a problem with rigging, if only because I accept that it's just a part of the game/show now. First and foremost, Production's goal is to create a TV show, so I can understand why they'd want to steer the story. Now, the fact that they tend to be recently rigging the game for awful people and/or people who are not popular, I don't get that at all. It seems less about making an entertaining show and more about helping the HGs Production (more like AG) like.

 

This season for instance they could've brought out some PBs or even the rewind twist earlier to save the actual favorites Donny, Zach, and Nicole, but they didn't. They never tried to steer the show away from being boring and instead seemed to be wanting to help Frankie, who is pretty widely hated.

 

Or last season it might've made sense if they brought something out to screw over the racists since the audience was clamoring for them to get their comeuppance.

Edited September 28, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Eolivet]

Big Brother certainly has a thing for men playing the game for their daughters. At least Danielle was in no danger of starving.

 

(for the record, I hated Dick, and as a winner, I find him thoroughly mediocre, benefiting both from good editing and a cult of personality that made him into a self-dubbed guru of the game on the Internet).

 

I also find Mike Boogie thoroughly mediocre -- benefiting not only from riding the coattails of one of (if not the best) social game player of all time, but also from the privilege of casual misogyny, where if a man is sitting next to a woman at the end (at least lately), it is automatically assumed he did better than she did.

 

Hayden is a tough one, because I think he had social game and won comps when he needed to, but benefited tremendously from The Brigade. He was a well-rounded winner, but the Brigade had eliminated all their threats earlier, so it was a question of who would benefit from their work. I suppose I give points on degree of difficulty, and "All-male alliance member wins in season where all-male alliance dominated" doesn't seem that impressive (my respect for him went up on Survivor, though).

 

The reason I give Rachel a lot of credit, and put her higher than these men (though lower than Jordan and now Derrick) is she had one aspect to her game and still managed to win. She had a terrible social game and she wasn't very strategic at all. But she was a competition beast. She won when she needed to. Yeah, Pandora's Box benefited her -- but she still had to win that comp. And nobody set out to rig the season for her. Remembering BB13, I think the newbies were keeping her around as a goat (wanting Jordan and her superior social game out first) and yet, she still won. Heck, she was probably the last veteran they wanted to win and she still won. That's impressive, to me.

 

(And I agree with peachmagosteen -- judge each season individually. So I don't mark Rachel down for her performance in BB12, just like I don't mark Dan down for not winning BB14 or Will for not winning All Stars. They're all winners, and I judge them based on the seasons where they won).

[choclatechip45]

 

Hayden is a tough one, because I think he had social game and won comps when he needed to, but benefited tremendously from The Brigade. He was a well-rounded winner, but the Brigade had eliminated all their threats earlier, so it was a question of who would benefit from their work. I suppose I give points on degree of difficulty, and "All-male alliance member wins in season where all-male alliance dominated" doesn't seem that impressive (my respect for him went up on Survivor, though).

 

The reason I give Rachel a lot of credit, and put her higher than these men (though lower than Jordan and now Derrick) is she had one aspect to her game and still managed to win. She had a terrible social game and she wasn't very strategic at all. But she was a competition beast. She won when she needed to. Yeah, Pandora's Box benefited her -- but she still had to win that comp. And nobody set out to rig the season for her. Remembering BB13, I think the newbies were keeping her around as a goat (wanting Jordan and her superior social game out first) and yet, she still won. Heck, she was probably the last veteran they wanted to win and she still won. That's impressive, to me.

I think Hayden is overrated. His biggest move was winning the final HOH if he goes up against Enzo he looses.

 

Both Brendan and Jordan only went in the house because both Rachel & Jeff wanted another shot to win Big Brother. Brendan asked people to get him out early because he wanted to take classes at UCLA. I'll never understand why in week 6 when Brendan came back they didn't backdoor Rachel. They really should of kept both Jordan & Brendan around as goats because neither of them wanted to be there in the first place. Jordan played a pretty good social game in BB11. Her social game in BB13 sucked. This is coming from someone who out of all the vets in BB13 Jordan was my favorite.

[peachmangosteen]

Great points about Rachel in BB13, Eolivet. I loved Rachel a lot in BB12, but then not so much in BB13. (Which seems to be the exact opposite opinion of the majority of the BB fans, at least the ones who post on internet message boards.) But really the only reason I didn't root for her in BB13 is because I didn't want Jeff to win/Production to get what they wanted and she was aligned with the veterans, so she was helping to facilitate what I didn't want. I do think she played a much better game all around in BB13 though and just a pretty good game in general. But I do think she benefited from the rigging and in the end from Shelly being so far up Jeff/Jordan's ass. But again, most winners have a fair degree of luck on their side anyway. I'd rank her above Dick and Boogie for sure. 

[Eolivet]

I think Hayden is overrated. His biggest move was winning the final HOH if he goes up against Enzo he looses.

 

No arguments there -- I think Rachel is better than Hayden.

 

Jordan played a pretty good social game in BB11. Her social game in BB13 sucked.

 

Her social game in BB13 was inferior to her social game in BB11, but I'd argue even in BB13, it was better than Rachel's. "Jeff and I are good people" is better social game than "Nobody comes between me and my man!"

 

I loved Rachel a lot in BB12, but then not so much in BB13. (Which seems to be the exact opposite opinion of the majority of the BB fans, at least the ones who post on internet message boards.)

 

I loved Rachel in both seasons, so my opinion is even more unpopular. I saw her immediately as someone who wanted to make good television -- and I have no problem with that, especially since she was a competitor and came to play. She demanded you take a side: "Floaters, grab a life vest!" was a great moment. I cannot even begin to think how incensed she would be at the game play this year: the giant alliance, throwing comps and "doing what the house wants."

 

Degree of difficulty for a win is another reason I will fight tooth and nail against someone like Derrick being better than someone like Maggie. I found Maggie to be a vile person, but her game was impeccable. She had maybe the only mostly female alliance I can remember (Beau was the only male member of the Friendship), with all the men plus competition beasts Janelle (who I loved) and James on the other side of the house. She faced competition every week from a large, organized alliance who were gunning for her, and she outmaneuvered them all. In retrospect, her game is so impressive, even though I hated it at the time. Derrick led a large alliance with no organized opposition around by the nose all season -- Maggie had to fight every week. There's no contest there.

[choclatechip45]

 

Her social game in BB13 was inferior to her social game in BB11, but I'd argue even in BB13, it was better than Rachel's. "Jeff and I are good people" is better social game than "Nobody comes between me and my man!"

That is true, but the fact her and Jeff didn't talk to Porsche for like 50 days. All 3 played a bad social game in that regards.

 

I remember at the time the whole duo twist happened because the casting was bad. I remember all the veterans saying on the feeds they only got the call a couple days before sequester began.

[willpwr]

No arguments there -- I think Rachel is better than Hayden.

 

 

 

 

Her social game in BB13 was inferior to her social game in BB11, but I'd argue even in BB13, it was better than Rachel's. "Jeff and I are good people" is better social game than "Nobody comes between me and my man!"

 

 

 

 

I loved Rachel in both seasons, so my opinion is even more unpopular. I saw her immediately as someone who wanted to make good television -- and I have no problem with that, especially since she was a competitor and came to play. She demanded you take a side: "Floaters, grab a life vest!" was a great moment. I cannot even begin to think how incensed she would be at the game play this year: the giant alliance, throwing comps and "doing what the house wants."

I liked her in both seasons of BB and TAR even though she's annoying. I liked how in S13 she would say "we won" instead of just I won when she and Jordan were by themselves towards the end. I loved her comments about floaters and the way she threw herself into competitions and was not afraid to make herself a target but rather seemed to invite it.

 

It's weird but I actually appreciate both styles, her over the top and Derrick's more stealth one. Pretty much I think I just like people that came to play regardless of their strategy. 

[choclatechip45]

 

Degree of difficulty for a win is another reason I will fight tooth and nail against someone like Derrick being better than someone like Maggie. I found Maggie to be a vile person, but her game was impeccable. She had maybe the only mostly female alliance I can remember (Beau was the only male member of the Friendship), with all the men plus competition beasts Janelle (who I loved) and James on the other side of the house. She faced competition every week from a large, organized alliance who were gunning for her, and she outmaneuvered them all. In retrospect, her game is so impressive, even though I hated it at the time. Derrick led a large alliance with no organized opposition around by the nose all season -- Maggie had to fight every week. There's no contest there.

Janelle is one of my all time favorite house guests, but she does not have a great social game. She relies too much on her competition wins.

Edited September 28, 2014 by choclatechip45

[peachmangosteen]

Degree of difficulty for a win is another reason I will fight tooth and nail against someone like Derrick being better than someone like Maggie. I found Maggie to be a vile person, but her game was impeccable. She had maybe the only mostly female alliance I can remember (Beau was the only male member of the Friendship), with all the men plus competition beasts Janelle (who I loved) and James on the other side of the house. She faced competition every week from a large, organized alliance who were gunning for her, and she outmaneuvered them all. In retrospect, her game is so impressive, even though I hated it at the time. Derrick led a large alliance with no organized opposition around by the nose all season -- Maggie had to fight every week. There's no contest there.

 

I completely agree. Maggie is a despicable person, but she played a very impressive game of BB. As you mentioned, she didn't have any of the lucky breaks or easy competition that Derrick did and she was on the opposite side of Production/America's faves. I actually would put her in the top tier of winners.

Edited September 28, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[ByaNose]

Ian Terry does that every season. Basically harmless.

[choclatechip45]

 

Ian Terry does that every season. Basically harmless.

True which is why at first I didn't think much of it until he actually thought he had a legit shot of Nicole.

[Bob Sambob]

 

True which is why at first I didn't think much of it until he actually thought he had a legit shot of Nicole.

 

Nicole said in her pregame interviews that she wanted to have a showmance with someone like Ian. Ian was really just playing up to that for the most part, but I'm sure he found her attractive. Don't blame him since I myself was most attracted to her out of all the ladies in the house.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Bob Sambob

[TheRealT]

Most seasons I hate just about everyone. It's been an unusual experience liking Donny this season, especially with him being popular online and with TV viewers. I hated Rachel both seasons; I hate Janelle; I hate Dr. Will; I hate Jeff and Jordan; I even hate Dan. That hasn't kept me from watching the show and the feeds every season, of course.

 

Degree of difficulty for a win is another reason I will fight tooth and nail against someone like Derrick being better than someone like Maggie. I found Maggie to be a vile person, but her game was impeccable. She had maybe the only mostly female alliance I can remember (Beau was the only male member of the Friendship), with all the men plus competition beasts Janelle (who I loved) and James on the other side of the house. She faced competition every week from a large, organized alliance who were gunning for her, and she outmaneuvered them all. In retrospect, her game is so impressive, even though I hated it at the time. Derrick led a large alliance with no organized opposition around by the nose all season -- Maggie had to fight every week. There's no contest there.

Yes. I hated Maggie, but her game was amazing. She had such firm control of the Friendship that they weren't even allowed to talk about what they'd do at the end once the "evil" people were gone and they were all afraid to breathe a word against her. She also pulled off the impressive move of getting Howie, who wasn't her ally, to put up his own alliance members instead of hers when he was HOH. That's the kind of thing that's super impressive to me and that's why I'm not super impressed by Derrick's game. Derrick faced no adversity. None. Getting through 55 nominations without going on the block is impressive, but it's also telling about how easy the game was for Derrick in that regard. He never had to figure out how to get himself off the block or how to get people to change their votes. He basically told the majority of people how to vote each week (sometimes after long conversations in which he pretended that he wasn't trying to influence them and that he cared about their opinions). It's impressive that he was able to gain so much trust and control over the others, but for most players that's just one aspect of the game and another is contending with players whom they can't control. That aspect was eliminated for Derrick for a number of reasons, some of which were just good luck for Derrick and not something he orchestrated.

[choclatechip45]

The only thing that really dampens Maggie's game  to me is that would anyone consider Jennifer, April, Ivette, Beau and Howie strong players? None of the ones I mentioned I think are strong independent players. They are like Derricks group of Victoria/Caleb/Cody/Zach/Christine.  I think Derrick's hold of Frankie is more impressive. So many times this season I thought Frankie would smell the roses and Derrick snowed him.  I'll give Maggie credit for going against Kaysar/Janelle/James/Rachel because those players are far more stronger than Nicole/Donny/Anyone else. I think what makes season 6 interesting to look back on is that we have season 3 players play twice and one player play 3 times. When you see a player play again it can really show you their weaknesses you might have not noticed the first time while watching.

[Wings]

I am pretty indifferent to Ian. I think he deserved to be in the final 2. Even though I was rooting for Dan. His tweets about Nicole are creepy.

ETA

 

 

What were Ian's tweets about Nicole?!  The gist.  

[Eolivet]

The only thing that really dampens Maggie's game  to me is that would anyone consider Jennifer, April, Ivette, Beau and Howie strong players? None of the ones I mentioned I think are strong independent players. They are like Derricks group of Victoria/Caleb/Cody/Zach/Christine.  I think Derrick's hold of Frankie is more impressive. So many times this season I thought Frankie would smell the roses and Derrick snowed him.  I'll give Maggie credit for going against Kaysar/Janelle/James/Rachel because those players are far more stronger than Nicole/Donny/Anyone else. I think what makes season 6 interesting to look back on is that we have season 3 players play twice and one player play 3 times. When you see a player play again it can really show you their weaknesses you might have not noticed the first time while watching.

 

I disagree, only because who was Derrick's opposition? Donny? Nicole and Hayden maybe? Jocasta? Maggie had a group of (Sovereign) Six all gunning for her, an organized alliance with a couple competition beasts in the mix and she beat them all with...Jennifer, April, Ivette and Beau. Derrick had Cody and Caleb in his back pocket (who were good enough at comps) and Frankie as an ally (another comp beast). I also feel like Frankie wasn't "snowed" by Derrick so much as couldn't marshal the forces to get him out, because they were all aligned with the same people and those people were more loyal to Derrick than Frankie.

 

And again: an undercover cop manipulating someone doesn't strike me as difficult as a nurse doing it, in my mind.

[peachmangosteen]

And again: an undercover cop manipulating someone doesn't strike me as difficult as a nurse doing it, in my mind.

 

I agree completely. I've talked about it before but I'll say it again, it's more impressive to me when someone I would never expect to be a skilled manipulator, like a nurse or a coach or dermatologist, is able to control all the HGs. Considering Derrick's job is/was to lie to and manipulate people, I actually expected much better tactics from him. His manipulation was pretty run-of-the-mill/textbook IMO. Although others did point out that he never had to even try to pull something bigger out because everyone else was so dumb and/or passive, the twists always went in his favor, he was never challenged, etc.

Edited September 29, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[willpwr]

I disagree, only because who was Derrick's opposition? Donny? Nicole and Hayden maybe? Jocasta? Maggie had a group of (Sovereign) Six all gunning for her, an organized alliance with a couple competition beasts in the mix and she beat them all with...Jennifer, April, Ivette and Beau. Derrick had Cody and Caleb in his back pocket (who were good enough at comps) and Frankie as an ally (another comp beast). I also feel like Frankie wasn't "snowed" by Derrick so much as couldn't marshal the forces to get him out, because they were all aligned with the same people and those people were more loyal to Derrick than Frankie.

 

And again: an undercover cop manipulating someone doesn't strike me as difficult as a nurse doing it, in my mind.

I don't know if it's more difficult for a nurse or an undercover cop, from my understanding both professions require adaptability, self control, knowledge of psychology, persuasive skills, stress tolerance, analytical thinking, etc. Most nurses I know are pretty hardcore, that profession is not for the weak.

 

While Derrick did have some luck, I wouldn't say his win was pure luck, he worked nonstop to keep himself from being nominated even though pretty much everyone at some point or another said it wasn't fair he hadn't gone up. As pretty much the entire jury admitted, he had a hand in all of their eliminations, so he did help orchestrate the evictions of the people he couldn't manipulate. Games are lost on cockiness, if he hadn't eliminated the threats to his game regardless of how minor they seemed then he probably wouldn't have won. If he and Donny had been F2, Derrick would have lost. The same with Nicole. He was lucky that people didn't really start playing until it was too late but then that's on them, not him.

 

ETA: Good coaches are great at manipulating people, they know how to read them and "coach" them into doing what is needed.. I really don't understand why some professions are underestimated but obviously, YMMV.

Edited September 29, 2014 by willpwr

[TheRealT]

I agree completely. I've talked about it before but I'll say it again, it's more impressive to me when someone I would never expect to be a skilled manipulator, like a nurse or a coach or dermatologist, is able to control all the HGs. Considering Derrick's job is/was to lie to and manipulate people, I actually expected much better tactics from him. His manipulation was pretty run-of-the-mill/textbook IMO. Although others did point out that he never had to even try to pull something bigger out because everyone else was so dumb and/or passive, the twists always went in his favor, he was never challenged, etc.

I agree that Derrick's manipulation was pretty run-of-the-mill and, ultimately, transparent. It didn't matter because most of the other HGs never bothered to put 2 and 2 together; they just took Derrick's word for it that it equaled 5. They accepted any dumb rationale he gave for doing what he wanted them to do even if it was clearly untrue or contradicted what Derrick said immediately before or after. One week (maybe the week of Skittlesgate) Derrick declared that Victoria shouldn't go on the block because "she hasn't done anything to anyone in this game and she doesn't deserve to go up." NOT A SINGLE PERSON said, "Wait, this isn't about nomming people because they've done something wrong. Why should I, your alliance member, go on the block instead of Victoria? I haven't done anything wrong either." During the house meeting when Derrick called Zach out for "lying" about him being in the BS/Detonators to Victoria, before he brought Victoria in he got Zach and Nicole to agree to keep the BS/Detonators a secret. Then he reamed Zach for being a liar in front of everyone, making it seem that Zach was lying about the existence of the alliance when, in fact, Zach only lied about being the one who told Vic. Even though Zach was getting screwed, he didn't just say, "Yes, I lied about being the one who told Vic, but you are in BS/Detonators." Nor did it occur to him that he shouldn't trust Derrick or that Derrick screwed him over. That scene was one of the most mind-boggling to me. Derrick framed it as him getting everything out in the open and having nothing to hide, but he got everyone but Vick to agree that he would lie and they'd go along with it. Obviously, his lies helped him, not them. Not only did they allow him to do that, but none of them thought, "Hey, Derrick is a pretty good liar and has everyone snowed. I wonder if he's lying to me?" The others failed to ever "read between the lines" with regard to Derrick. It didn't ping on anyone's radar that he kept finding excuses to keep Victoria week after week. No one but Frankie even noticed that Derrick was never on the block. Etc., etc., etc.

 

That's why I can't see him as a master manipulator. If the others weren't so dumb, they could have easily figured out his game. He faced no opposition from counter alliances and no one in his alliance except Frankie even had a strong point of view that Derrick had to contend with. They basically just did whatever he said without question. When they caught him in lies, he'd go, "OMG, I can't believe you think I'm lying! I'm really hurt. Come find me when you're ready to apologize." and they bought that. That's not exactly master manipulating; it's more like taking advantage of really dumb, weak people.

[Eolivet]

I don't know if it's more difficult for a nurse or an undercover cop, from my understanding both professions require adaptability, self control, knowledge of psychology, persuasive skills, stress tolerance, analytical thinking, etc. Most nurses I know are pretty hardcore, that profession is not for the weak.

[...]Good coaches are great at manipulating people, they know how to read them and "coach" them into doing what is needed.. I really don't understand why some professions are underestimated but obviously, YMMV.

 

True, but the patients don't have guns. Nor do the high school students (I suppose I always think of Dan as a teacher instead of a coach -- I mean, a high school basketball coach isn't exactly Phil Jackson here).

 

As an undercover cop, Derrick was presumably infiltrating criminal organizations (not the mob, but at least loosely formed groups of bad guys). These criminals were likely armed and dangerous -- hence, the undercover work. So, if Derrick was good enough to manipulate armed criminals for three years, "Beastmode Cowboy" and a "social media mogul" and literally a kid probably weren't that big a stretch for him.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Eolivet

[peachmangosteen]

I still personally feel it was much less difficult for an undercover cop to snow a bunch of 20-something idiots than it was for Dan, Maggie, or Will to do what they did, but even more so, it was much less fun to watch for me and ultimately I watch the show to be entertained.

[willpwr]

True, but the patients don't have guns. Nor do the high school students (I suppose I always think of Dan as a teacher instead of a coach -- I mean, a high school basketball coach isn't exactly Phil Jackson here).

 

As an undercover cop, Derrick was presumably infiltrating criminal organizations (not the mob, but at least loosely formed groups of bad guys). These criminals were likely armed and dangerous -- hence, the undercover work. So, if Derrick was good enough to manipulate armed criminals for three years, "Beastmode Cowboy" and a "social media mogul" and literally a kid probably weren't that big a stretch for him.

Nursing is one of the most dangerous professions and as you mentioned, they don't have guns to protect them. A lot of them get threatened as well as verbally and physically abused at work, either by patients with diseases or family members. I know a lot of nurses, it's really tough and they are some of the most mentally strong people I know and are great manipulators. I can't say if Dan is good at coaching but he has great skills at reading people, some are just born with it while others are taught those skills and others can't seem to learn them no matter how many classes they take.

 

I agree, the other people were dumb or too trusting, as a sales rep, Cody should have also had the skills to be more persuasive and read people but he seemed to rely too much on his looks IMO. He did play a great social game and got them to confide in him, unfortunately, he couldn't figure out what to do on his own and relied too heavily on someone else thinking for him.

[peachmangosteen]

I agree, the other people were dumb or too trusting, as a sales rep, Cody should have also had the skills to be more persuasive and read people but he seemed to rely too much on his looks IMO. He did play a great social game and got them to confide in him, unfortunately, he couldn't figure out what to do on his own and relied too heavily on someone else thinking for him.

 

I forgot Cody was a sales rep. He had so many tools and he squandered them all. My damn, he played such a terrible game. I still can't wrap my mind around it. Honestly, I think ultimately Cody played a terrible social game because he ended up voting out all the people who loved him pretty early on because, as he freely admitted, they were a threat to Derrick. The mind boggles! I mean Cody had such a legitimate chance to win because he was so well liked by so many people/was a legitimate comp threat and he threw it all way for Derrick. I do not get it at all. To me it didn't even look like Derrick put as much work into Cody as he did some others, which makes it even more unfathomable to me. We did miss that first week though, which is when the Hitmen were apparently born, so maybe Derrick was really working him then and it just stuck because Cody is dumb? Naive? Easily snowed by father types?

Edited September 29, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Morbs]

I think also Cody worries a lot about what other people think. He doesn't want to be seen as a traitor, he is embarrassed about his modeling, and he needs a lot of validation about his looks.

[Wings]

Irritable and Turtle, I am watching BB2 now, too.  I thought Will and Boogie hooked up right out of the gate but not true.  I am looking forward to the Chilltown bond. I am surprised at how much I remember and conversely how much I forgot!  

[peachmangosteen]

Good points, Morbs. I guess it does ultimately make sense why Cody did what he did, but it's such a shame. This kid gave up a chance to pay off his outrageous student loans because of his insecurities. Poor guy. 

 

I actually could never truly like Will because he loved Boogie (and Shannon) so much. He has awful taste in friends!

 

I really should go back and watch BB2-5 because I honestly don't remember much at all. I weirdly remember more about BB1. It might be because I didn't have the feeds for BB2-5.

Edited September 29, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Eolivet]

Nursing is one of the most dangerous professions and as you mentioned, they don't have guns to protect them. A lot of them get threatened as well as verbally and physically abused at work, either by patients with diseases or family members. I know a lot of nurses, it's really tough and they are some of the most mentally strong people I know and are great manipulators.

 

I don't want to get too far off topic, so this will be my last post on the subject: I didn't mean the nurses didn't have guns -- I mean the patients don't. I have family members who are nurses. If they are being threatened by a patient, they get backup -- another nurse or an aide to come and help them. If they are being threatened by a family member, they call security, who can remove problematic family members.

 

Undercover cops can't do that. If Derrick is being threatened by someone in his profession, he has to talk his way out of it. He cannot "call for backup" -- he is the backup. He is the only way to save his life, if they don't want to compromise the undercover operation (or so I'm told from too many hours of Law & Order).

 

This is why I think Derrick had it so easy in the Big Brother house and one reason why I can't rank him among the top tier players. He's used to staying alive (or unharmed) by talking his way out of things. That's his job: to infiltrate, gather information and talk his way out of things to accomplish an objective. Which is literally the template for winning Big Brother (as a micromanaging strategist). It's not a nurse's job to talk her way out of things, nor is it a high school teacher or coach's job. Maggie and Dan could compete in the Manipulator's Olympics as amateurs, but Derrick would be disqualified. An undercover cop is a professional manipulator by trade, in service to his community. He got a paycheck for playing Big Brother with bad guys every day. He could've been in the house with clones of Dr. Will, Dan and Maggie, and as long as they didn't have guns, he might've done equally as well. Because it was what he got paid to do before he went in the Big Brother house and...well...he got paid to do it again.

[peachmangosteen]

Eolivet, I'd love to see how you'd rank the BB winners. You and I seem to have similar thoughts on what makes players good, so I'd like to see how your ranking would compare to mine. Edited September 29, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[willpwr]

 

I don't want to get too far off topic, so this will be my last post on the subject: I didn't mean the nurses didn't have guns -- I mean the patients don't. I have family members who are nurses. If they are being threatened by a patient, they get backup -- another nurse or an aide to come and help them. If they are being threatened by a family member, they call security, who can remove problematic family members.

 

Undercover cops can't do that. If Derrick is being threatened by someone in his profession, he has to talk his way out of it. He cannot "call for backup" -- he is the backup. He is the only way to save his life, if they don't want to compromise the undercover operation (or so I'm told from too many hours of Law & Order).

 

This is why I think Derrick had it so easy in the Big Brother house and one reason why I can't rank him among the top tier players. He's used to staying alive (or unharmed) by talking his way out of things. That's his job: to infiltrate, gather information and talk his way out of things to accomplish an objective. Which is literally the template for winning Big Brother (as a micromanaging strategist). It's not a nurse's job to talk her way out of things, nor is it a high school teacher or coach's job. Maggie and Dan could compete in the Manipulator's Olympics as amateurs, but Derrick would be disqualified. An undercover cop is a professional manipulator by trade, in service to his community. He got a paycheck for playing Big Brother with bad guys every day. He could've been in the house with clones of Dr. Will, Dan and Maggie, and as long as they didn't have guns, he might've done equally as well. Because it was what he got paid to do before he went in the Big Brother house and...well...he got paid to do it again.

I understood what you were saying about the guns, I was trying to be playful with my reply and jokingly flipped it but no tone via post. This is my last post on this subject, too... cops talk themselves out of situations, nurses talk people into things. They're both paid to be persuasive and handle stressful, at times life and death situations as well as adapt so I view them as very similar professions due to their required skill sets. When I was studying criminal justice, I had a lot of nurses taking some of the same classes I did. I wasn't surprised by Maggie's performance, I was expecting it.

 

I can't rank who I think were the most impressive winners because in the first couple of seasons, people weren't sure what the game was really about except for a select few who managed to catch on, well that's pretty much every season really. They've done so many different twists throughout the seasons such as this one with BotB, S11 had the high school cliques that really helped some people out, etc. The only way for me to determine that someone is a "better" winner would have been if they all played on an equal playing field (no benefit of having seen other winner's strategies) and no bs twists, just a pure game with no meddling from production.

 

Next season I want everyone to be hungry for the win, no playing to make it to jury or hopes of stardom. I want everyone gunning for the money. I want scheming, backstabbing, people playing for themselves and not as a group. This season was boring, last season was vile (I quit after a few episodes), I want entertainment!

[TheRealT]

I forgot Cody was a sales rep. He had so many tools and he squandered them all. My damn, he played such a terrible game. I still can't wrap my mind around it. Honestly, I think ultimately Cody played a terrible social game because he ended up voting out all the people who loved him pretty early on because, as he freely admitted, they were a threat to Derrick. The mind boggles! I mean Cody had such a legitimate chance to win because he was so well liked by so many people/was a legitimate comp threat and he threw it all way for Derrick. I do not get it at all. To me it didn't even look like Derrick put as much work into Cody as he did some others, which makes it even more unfathomable to me. We did miss that first week though, which is when the Hitmen were apparently born, so maybe Derrick was really working him then and it just stuck because Cody is dumb? Naive? Easily snowed by father types?

To be fair, I don't think Cody was a salesman for long. Didn't he just graduate from college this year? I agree that he played a terrible game, but I really don't think he had so many tools at his disposal. I think his plan going in was to be well liked, especially by the women, and to do well in comps. Once he got there, the situation was different than he anticipated in terms of being stressful and confusing and really missing his family/having people he trusts to guide him. Cody is very close to his family and I would assume that he talks to them daily and gets their input on even minor decisions. He seems like the type of person who would even get friends' advice about everything- Should I wear these pants or the other ones?, What should I have for dinner?, etc. In the house he was thrust into a situation where he wasn't supposed to trust anyone and he had to make important decisions every day and I think he was overwhelmed. Derrick stepped up to be his trusted big brother/father figure and Cody was grateful. One interesting thing that he said in explaining how he thought Derrick deserved to win more than him (essentially) was that he pretty much owed his game to Derrick because Cody is a hothead by nature and there were lots of times when he was ready to go off on people or wanted to make a bad strategic move because of his emotions and Derrick reined him in. I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. Cody obviously likes to talk to let off steam, process what's going on, get validation for what he's thinking, etc. I think the endless strategy conversations with Derrick, with and without the larger alliance, were comforting to him in a way. He had a lot of nervous energy around the game and he needed a safe outlet to vent. That's what all the grandiose shit talking was about. I think Cody is correct in thinking that if Derrick hadn't been there he probably would have gotten himself in trouble in the game. He definitely would have been nowhere strategically without Derrick, though he might have been able to get that from Christine, Frankie, or Donny. As far as the work Derrick put into him, I always thought that Cody actually required way more babysitting than Victoria.

 

Derrick basically offered pretty good deals to both Cody and VIctoria- "Be my puppet and I'll get you to F2." Obviously, there was no way Vic would get that far without Derrick and Cody's chances of doing so weren't much better. Cody did have stronger relationships in the house, but none of those people were willing/able to be the strong leader that Cody needed and make him feel safe putting his game in their hands. That's where Derrick was masterful, picking the right people to have in his inner circle in the game. I don't buy that he chose them because he was truly loyal to them or liked them so much better than the others (the fact that there were 2 of them pretty much proves that he wasn't "loyal."), but I believe that he genuinely thought those two were his best goat options. I think that in the beginning Derrick was still keeping his options wide open and as the game progressed his relationships with them became more "genuine" because none of the other options became more viable than C & V. At some point he settled on the two of them as his "real" F3, then he decided which one he wanted to go to F2 with.

 

I think also Cody worries a lot about what other people think. He doesn't want to be seen as a traitor, he is embarrassed about his modeling, and he needs a lot of validation about his looks.

Yes. Cody is still very young emotionally and, as I said above, I would assume that he had talked to his family almost every day for his entire life before BB. Derrick played on his insecurities to control him.

 

This is why I think Derrick had it so easy in the Big Brother house and one reason why I can't rank him among the top tier players. He's used to staying alive (or unharmed) by talking his way out of things. That's his job: to infiltrate, gather information and talk his way out of things to accomplish an objective. Which is literally the template for winning Big Brother (as a micromanaging strategist). It's not a nurse's job to talk her way out of things, nor is it a high school teacher or coach's job. Maggie and Dan could compete in the Manipulator's Olympics as amateurs, but Derrick would be disqualified. An undercover cop is a professional manipulator by trade, in service to his community. He got a paycheck for playing Big Brother with bad guys every day. He could've been in the house with clones of Dr. Will, Dan and Maggie, and as long as they didn't have guns, he might've done equally as well. Because it was what he got paid to do before he went in the Big Brother house and...well...he got paid to do it again.

I don't think Derrick would have been as successful at manipulating the players you mentioned (or their clones) AT ALL. Derrick couldn't even snow Jocasta or Brittany. His strategy was very dependent on playing with very young, insecure, emotionally needy people. They looked up to Derrick and relied on him for validation, comfort, guidance, whatever. People who didn't need Derrick to validate and support them were not susceptible to his manipulations.

[Wings]

On season two it is so good to see genuine DR sessions.  They are not rehearsed or scripted.  Bunky even lies down in most of his.  I wish they could get back there.  It seems so pure and honest.  There has not been any voting with the house so far.  I am watching real strategy and negotiations.  

[Bob Sambob]

Eolivet, I'd love to see how you'd rank the BB winners. You and I seem to have similar thoughts on what makes players good, so I'd like to see how your ranking would compare to mine.

 

Peach, you should check out the Dom & Colin Podcast where they ranked all the winners, as well as the other standouts, through Ian (they're planning to do an update soon). Long as shit, but a great listen. Part 1 and Part 2.

[choclatechip45]

I'm not taking anything away from Maggie, but players from S6 except from James were so into the split alliances me vs. them. I do think its part of the secret twist. Another thing, that takes away from Maggie is that she was so clueless about Eric's backdoor. I think for a long time Maggie was underrated, but in the last couple years she has become a bit overrated.

Edited September 29, 2014 by choclatechip45

[peachmangosteen]

Peach, you should check out the Dom & Colin Podcast where they ranked all the winners, as well as the other standouts, through Ian (they're planning to do an update soon). Long as shit, but a great listen. Part 1 and Part 2.

 

Oh cool. Thanks for the link. I'll definitely have to check that out.

[Former Nun]

To be fair, I don't think Cody was a salesman for long.

 

He could have been a "salesman" for some company who starts new grads on the phone--even cold-calling.  They stick to a script and have very little decision-making responsibilities.  Just need to be friendly and persistent.