Mrs. Astor Approves. The Real Gilded Age

[Haleth]

A topic to discuss the history, characters, and events of the real Gilded Age. 

[Haleth]

I’m reading a book called A Season of Splendor by Greg King about the Gilded Age in NY. It starts with bios of the prominent families and I learned something interesting early on. Anderson Cooper’s great grandmother, Alice Claypool Gwynne Vanderbilt was a direct descendent of Oliver Cromwell. Interesting family. And I haven’t even gotten to Alva yet. 

[JenE4]

Interesting article on Ward McAllister.  Though he controlled the 400 society list—he had no money of his own! 
https://slate.com/culture/2022/02/gilded-age-hbo-nathan-lane-ward-mcallister.html

[Arynm]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:57 AM, Haleth said:

I’m reading a book called A Season of Splendor by Greg King about the Gilded Age in NY. It starts with bios of the prominent families

I am also reading this book! It is chock full of info about just about everything.

I just got to the part that I think was based on Mrs. Chamberlain. The real Gilded age counterpart was named Arabella Huntington and the story is pretty much exactly like it's portrayed on the show. The art that she and her husband collected is now housed in the Huntington Library in CA.

[Atlanta]

I've learned to not read any Edith Wharton unless I want to be depressed.  I know there are 'realist' authors, but in her world, being 'realist' always means a tragic outcome. Yes, I minored in English lit.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Atlanta

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Arynm said:

 

I just got to the part that I think was based on Mrs. Chamberlain. The real Gilded age counterpart was named Arabella Huntington and the story is pretty much exactly like it's portrayed on the show. The art that she and her husband collected is now housed in the Huntington Library in CA.

I was going to add this last night but didn't get to it.  Mrs Chamberlain was surely based on Arabella Huntington.

I was also going to add a comment about Ward McCallister eventually losing his position and being replaced as an influencer by a truly horrible person named Henry Lehr.  He wooed a young, beautiful heiress and married her, only to tell her on their wedding night that he wanted nothing to do with her, only her bank account.  He was gay.  She was Catholic and didn't want the scandal of divorce so they remained married for 28 loveless years.  For a while he was the darling of the 400.  I wonder if Fellowes is going to use this as a basis for an Oscar/Gladys marriage?

[Hiyo]

Apparently, his full speech to her was:

"In public I will be to you everything that a most devoted husband should be to his wife. You shall never complain of my conduct in this respect. I will give you courtesy, respect and apparently devotion. But you must expect nothing more from me. When we are alone I do not intend to keep up the miserable pretense, the farce of love and sentiment. Our marriage will never be a marriage in anything but in name. I do not love you. I can never love you. I can school myself to be polite to you but that is all. The less we see of one another except in the presence of others, the better."

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I wonder if Fellowes is going to use this as a basis for an Oscar/Gladys marriage?

Possibly, though in the case you mentioned, the heiress was also a widow.

 

[RachelKM]

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

I wonder if Fellowes is going to use this as a basis for an Oscar/Gladys marriage?

Oscar is a narcissistic tool but he hasn't yet appeared cruel. So I hope he doesn't intend to be that unfeeling to his eventual wife.*  The way he described his plans to Adams seemed as if he's capable a feigning some legitimate interest in women and intends for he and his wife to get along well enough.  I'm sure if his wife pressed the issue, he would set her down. But I'm struggling to imagine him making such a cold speech on his wedding night unless he marries someone else out of of necessity whom he truly doesn't even like. He seems to think Gladys is, at least, a sweet child. 

 

*I'm reasonably certain Oscar will not marry Gladys unless Fellowes intends to kill him off early.  Fellowes doesn't like mean people or schemers to prosper long-term in his shows. Oscar's death would be the only avenue of freedom for his wife, whomever she is.  Divorce could get you excised from society too.

Edited March 2, 2022 by RachelKM

[arty]

Here is a good article to check out for those who enjoy podcasts. It recommends several podcasts that can serve as a primer for this show. I've listened to a couple of the recommendations already, and topics that this show has touched upon including Ward McAllister and the creation of the 400; the opening of the Metropolitan Opera House; and The Mrs. Astor herself have all been covered. I've enjoyed the podcasts I've listened to so far.

[Haleth]

I was surprised to read that in her later years Mrs Astor Alva Vanderbilt became quite the Suffragette. As she became disgusted by new money’s increasingly ostentatious and tasteless behavior she turned her attention to getting women the right to vote. Pretty radical!

Edited March 15, 2022 by Haleth

[Brn2bwild]

On 3/11/2022 at 6:13 AM, Haleth said:

I was surprised to read that in her later years Mrs Astor became quite the Suffragette. As she became disgusted by new money’s increasingly ostentatious and tasteless behavior she turned her attention to getting women the right to vote. Pretty radical!

So did Alva Vanderbilt, mother of Consuelo.  What was it about women's suffrage that made these suffocating society matrons say: "This feels like a natural fit.  Sign me up."? 

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

So did Alva Vanderbilt, mother of Consuelo.  What was it about women's suffrage that made these suffocating society matrons say: "This feels like a natural fit.  Sign me up."? 

Omigosh, that's who I meant to say.  Duh me.  Thanks for the correction.

[izabella]

On 3/14/2022 at 11:42 PM, Brn2bwild said:

So did Alva Vanderbilt, mother of Consuelo.  What was it about women's suffrage that made these suffocating society matrons say: "This feels like a natural fit.  Sign me up."? 

I think it's because they were women who sought control and power.  They knew if they wanted real power, they needed to be able to vote and have a voice in government.

[Affogato]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:42 AM, Brn2bwild said:

So did Alva Vanderbilt, mother of Consuelo.  What was it about women's suffrage that made these suffocating society matrons say: "This feels like a natural fit.  Sign me up."? 

The sexes were socially dimorphic  in this group (not a scientific term, just looking for descriptor) and they tried to have successful satisfying lives, playing by the rules.
They lived in the woman’s sphere, mansging households and giving parties, and it ultimately proved unsatisfying and destrucive to their relationships as well. 
they had enough. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Affogato

[MerBearHou]

Not sure where to put this, but I was intrigued to know more about Mrs. Astor and Mrs. Vanderbilt and the Gilded Age.  Came across a recommendation for a novel called “The Social Graces” by Renee Rosen.  It is a wonderful, full imagining of the Astors and Vanderbilts using facts in their lives.  I enjoyed it very much and of course, being a book, it can delve much more deeply into their relationships (marriages, children, friendships, staff, Old and New Money) and the world in which they live — both in NYC and Newport.  Really recommend it if you’re interested in more about these families, their social group (McAllister, Fish, Belmont, etc) and that unique time period.  

Edited March 21, 2022 by MerBearHou

[Roseanna]

I read a memoir of Sally Salminen who immigrated in the 1930ies and worked as domestic worker in various families om New York. Even after decades she was really annoyed by rich people who dropped tobacco ashes all around and by women who dropped their underwear on the floor. (So Bertha's servants *were* probably furious for extra work when she had thrown her breakfast from her tray.)

In general, Sally Salminen thought it was odd that although the US had first become democracy, Americans were so undemocratic. The running boy might become a millionaire but before he did, he was void.  

The only exception Salminen met was an old impoverished lady whose ancestor had come in Mayflower: she had ultra-reactionary opinions but treated her servant as a human being.  

Luckily Sally Salminen's first novel won a literary competition, so she could leave the US and become a full-time writer.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Roseanna
added two words and took one word away

[Snazzy Daisy]

The Astors | Anderson Cooper on an American Dynasty

 

[TVForever]

15 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

The Astors | Anderson Cooper on an American Dynasty

 

I just learned about the book when I saw Anderson Cooper interviewed about it this morning on CBS Mornings. I'm fascinated by that period and am looking forward to reading the book.

[Baltimore Betty]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:04 PM, TVForever said:

I just learned about the book when I saw Anderson Cooper interviewed about it this morning on CBS Mornings. I'm fascinated by that period and am looking forward to reading the book.

You can also read "A Well Behaved Woman," by Therese Anne Fowler and there is a Gilded Age podcast by Tom Myers and Alicia Malone, they go thru every episode and talk about the real life stories, costumes and the behind the show information.

Also, the podcast The Gilded Gentleman."

I did a bit a deep dive you might say!

[Snazzy Daisy]

How the Black aristocracy of the Gilded Age ushered in a new era of education and freedom

• The Gilded Age was a period toward the end of the 19th century marked by rapid economic growth and prosperity.

• Just a few years after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, the Gilded Age ushered in a Black aristocracy.

• Many of the Black elite during the time owned retail and grocery stores and pharmacies.

 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Caroline Astor | The Queen of Gilded Age New York

[Roseanna]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:18 PM, Snazzy Daisy said:

How the Black aristocracy of the Gilded Age ushered in a new era of education and freedom

• The Gilded Age was a period toward the end of the 19th century marked by rapid economic growth and prosperity.

• Just a few years after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, the Gilded Age ushered in a Black aristocracy.

• Many of the Black elite during the time owned retail and grocery stores and pharmacies.

In no way aristocracy and elite only among themselves.  

Owning retail and grocery stores and pharmacies is middle-class. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Meet The **REAL** Mrs. Roebling Who Saved The Brooklyn Bridge in the Gilded Age!

[Haleth]

Wow.  I didn't know about her work after the bridge.  She really was a remarkable woman, in any age.  

[MdMaxx]

On 11/13/2023 at 6:10 AM, Roseanna said:

In no way aristocracy and elite only among themselves.  

Owning retail and grocery stores and pharmacies is middle-class. 

Even those who did manage to gain wealth faced pervasive systemic inequities. White society largely viewed Black Americans as "a homogenous mass of degraded people," according to historian Willard B. Gatewood in his book, "Aristocrats of Color: The Black Elite."

"Even exceptional Blacks were considered inferior to whites," Gatewood wrote.

--There's always that one person who wants to humble and bring Black people down a peg. 

[yellowjacket]

Hi from New York.  I "had occasion" to attend a luncheon at the Metropolitan Club this week, designed by Stanford White, land gifted in the 1890s by Mrs. Duke of Marlborough.  The building is beyond spectacular and looks like Bertha's house, one block down. (Metropolitan Club, Fifth and 60th street.)  Food was meh, LOL

I'm not sure that this is the spoiler thread, but I see Emily Roebling stuff here.  They're going to do (i.e. appropriate) the full Emily story next episode.  She did all it seems the show is going to say she did, and more, and it looks like they're going to dress her in her in a costume imitating her fabulous yellow Court Dress, which she wore to meet Queesn Victoria.  It's in the Met Costume Institute collection now.  ONLY Engineer with a court dress presented to the queen of England. 

This is the only program I've ever watched that covers women structural engineers (my profession) and their formal fashion. (like I said, never wore a dress to be presented to royalty.)  It's like nirvana to me.

 

[Atlanta]

Got some goodies from the library (just returned the Matthew Perry book--really good yet sad reading) and got "740 Park" by Michael Gross (not directly gilded age but adjacent), and "The Husband Hunters" by Anne de Courcy that chronicles the 'dollar princesses.' Bummed that my library and Kindle Unlimited don't have Consuelo's "The Glitter and the Gold," but will try to find it. Don't want to buy it because I doubt it's something I'd reread. 

I'm open to other GA related book recs.

[Baltimore Betty]

5 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Got some goodies from the library (just returned the Matthew Perry book--really good yet sad reading) and got "740 Park" by Michael Gross (not directly gilded age but adjacent), and "The Husband Hunters" by Anne de Courcy that chronicles the 'dollar princesses.' Bummed that my library and Kindle Unlimited don't have Consuelo's "The Glitter and the Gold," but will try to find it. Don't want to buy it because I doubt it's something I'd reread. 

I'm open to other GA related book recs.

I just read Anderson Cooper's "Astor," it was really good.

[Haleth]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:49 AM, Atlanta said:

I'm open to other GA related book recs.

The Scarlet Sisters by Myra MacPherson about Tennie Clafin and Victoria Woodhull.  They lived very colorful lives.  Started as low level con artists and ended up married to British aristocrats, with help from Cornelius Vanderbilt.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Maud Beaton’s secret in The Gilded Age

 

The Gilded Age Season 2 | Is Maud Beaton A Famous Con Artist Out To Scam Oscar Van Rhijn?

[Affogato]

https://historyhustle.com/victorian-women-bathroom/
 

toileting in the gilded age

[Baltimore Betty]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

https://historyhustle.com/victorian-women-bathroom/
 

toileting in the gilded age

I saw an interview with Carrie c**** and she said that once she is in costume she straddles the commode facing the wall because of her bustle would never allow her the room to sit facing forward. 

The thought of having to disrobe completely to relieve yourself is hysterical because you know that is one of the ways the women were kept close to home, hobbled by their clothes and lack of opportunity in the world, it is amazing any woman accomplished anything is a miracle. 

What would happen if you were visiting a friend or even out in public at a restaurant or store when nature called? Then what?

 

[JenE4]

46 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I saw an interview with Carrie c**** and she said that once she is in costume she straddles the commode facing the wall because of her bustle would never allow her the room to sit facing forward. 

The thought of having to disrobe completely to relieve yourself is hysterical because you know that is one of the ways the women were kept close to home, hobbled by their clothes and lack of opportunity in the world, it is amazing any woman accomplished anything is a miracle. 

What would happen if you were visiting a friend or even out in public at a restaurant or store when nature called? Then what?

 

Maybe this is why young ladies traveled with a companion—not for the impropriety of being alone. Maybe this is also when the custom started of girls going to use the restroom together—not to gossip. 😁

Edited December 15, 2023 by JenE4

[Hanahope]

I presume women took every clothes changing as an opportunity to use the loo.  This explains why rich women changed clothes a lot.  
 

they probably kept visits and outings short, ate and drank little while away from home

[Haleth]

I bet there are books that show how women's rights and women's fashion in the early 20th c intersect; as clothing became less restrictive women had more opportunity to be present.  I'll have to look into this.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Haleth

[Affogato]

It would be harder to avoid food poisoning and things like c- diff would be a nightmare for everyone. It certainly would explain why women didn’t go out for beers though. I imagine dehydration would be an issue. 
 

i wonder how sewage was handled at the time in New York? This last year there were seeage issues in part of new york, maybe from old installations  

https://www.oldhouseonline.com/kitchens-and-baths-articles/the-history-of-the-toilet/

a history of the lavatory. The period of the show-seems to be a time of many changes. The Russells may have fixtures but older hiuses  probably not. But many of them may have had rooms that could accomodate dresses while sitting on a box over a chamberpot. At least not narrow stalls. 
 

https://chickfly.com/blogs/news/peeing-through-art-history

the bourdaloue is  new to me, the eye in the bottom is strange. (Some explicit artworks)

Edited December 16, 2023 by Affogato

[Snazzy Daisy]

GREED In The Gilded Age: Exceptionally Clever Female Con Artists You Never Knew About

[chaifan]

I have a question about Mrs. Bruce's opera dress, hoping someone with actual knowledge of period dress can chime in...

While I thought the dress was lovely and it seemed quite fancy to me, we have to assume that Mrs. Bruce wouldn't have a Met-opening worthy gown at her disposal, in her closet.  So this was probably just the nicest dress she owned.  When Bertha offered her the tickets, I instantly thought what is Mrs. Bruce going to wear?  And I expected a line or two about that, or at least Bertha offering her one of Glady's (plain, simple) opera capes.

I'm wondering how her dress would have compared at that time to someone else with Orchestra seats.  Would the society women at the Met have been able to tell by her dress that she was of lower class? 

 

[Affogato]

26 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I have a question about Mrs. Bruce's opera dress, hoping someone with actual knowledge of period dress can chime in...

While I thought the dress was lovely and it seemed quite fancy to me, we have to assume that Mrs. Bruce wouldn't have a Met-opening worthy gown at her disposal, in her closet.  So this was probably just the nicest dress she owned.  When Bertha offered her the tickets, I instantly thought what is Mrs. Bruce going to wear?  And I expected a line or two about that, or at least Bertha offering her one of Glady's (plain, simple) opera capes.

I'm wondering how her dress would have compared at that time to someone else with Orchestra seats.  Would the society women at the Met have been able to tell by her dress that she was of lower class? 

 

To my eyes it is similar, including the size of the bustle, as I think the size of the bustle would be a sign that something was outdated. I suppose we must remember that her coworkers would have gathered around her and supported her with whatever they could get together. One might have a pair of shoes, one would have some jewelery. Some of them probably did structural work on the clothing of the mistress, to update it, and would have some skills in that area, and may have updated some discarded clothing for themselves. Still, they didn't have much time to work.

I think that, show aside, the very richest women would have a small number of gowns every year, imported from Europe, perhaps,  and change around the accessories for various events, but that for something like the opera opening they may have saved something new to parade around in.